Ask John: Does John Accept Dubbing?
Question:
I am aware you have a dislike for English dubs. Are there any dubs you do like, or do you watch some dubs? I can understand the argument about the original version carrying the truer intent and stuff like that. However, in my biased opinion, a true hardcore otaku will enjoy anime overall. That means they can enjoy the localized edits of certain anime and the ideally unedited version of the original product. I just think you are generalizing English dub as something to be disdainful [of]. There are dubs better than Japanese out there. Anime pioneer Fred Ladd says that Osamu Tezuka was very pleased with what he did with Kimba. “He liked the English version very much,” he [Ladd] says. “We injected humor where he [Tezuka] hadn’t envisioned any, and it just delighted him. We saw facets of the show that just didn’t play in Japanese culture, but worked well in English… For instance, we gave all the characters comic names, such as Mr. Pompous – for some reason that name really delighted Tezuka.” You can’t really argue with [what] Tezuka said about this. This was a word of God from the father of modern manga and anime.
In regards to localizing and changing the artistic integrity and intent of the artist’s vision with dubbing and editing, I agree on this at certain angles. However, I think even if an artist made a work for a specific group of people, they may have to accept it be changed for other people to enjoy. I think the general intent of artists is to have something for everyone to enjoy.
Answer:
Yes, this is a variety of the old argument, but it’s been a while.
I appreciate your polite and rational debate. Hopefully I’ll be able to respond in kind. I’m partially unable to debate your assertion that “there are good dubs and bad dubs in every language.” On principle, I don’t watch foreign language dubs. I’ve been watching anime in Japanese language since 1987. In that time I’ve watched probably fewer than a dozen anime episodes or movies dubbed in a foreign language. Most recently, two years ago I made an exception to my principles and watched the English language dub of the 1959 anime film Shonen Sarutobi Sasuke because I don’t have access to an original Japanese language version. But I make exceptions like that exceedingly rarely. I’ve never watched episodes of anime series including Bistro Recipe, Beyblade (original series), Mad Bull 34, Monster Farmer, and Hare Tokidoki Buta because these particular shows are only accessible to me dubbed in English. My distaste for dubbing isn’t just a discrimination against English dubbed anime. While I’ve watched director John Woo’s The Killer and Hardboiled numerous times each, I’ve never seen the extended cuts of either film because the longest existing cuts of both films are only available with Mandarin dubbing. I will concede the case of a dub being superior to the original language release in the case of the 2000 Vampire Hunter D movie. The Japanese language dub is much more tonally appropriate to the content of the film, and much more emotionally true to the spirit of the film than the original English language dialogue.
I’m a firm believer in watching an artist’s work the way the artist created and released it, or in as close to that original format as possible. While I respect the opinion that, “a true hardcore otaku will enjoy anime” regardless of its spoken language, my own opposing belief is that a true, hardcore otaku will accept no substitute or one-step-removed alteration of the original, especially not an alteration that did not come from the original artist. On a side note, I’ve long thought that it’s a bizarre irony that hardcore sci-fi & fantasy fans oppose creator George Lucas’ updates and alterations to his own original Star Wars movies yet approve of Americans altering original Japanese sci-fi & fantasy imports. I won’t debate the theory that it’s possible for an external editor to improve a creator’s original work; however, that engenders the question: is the viewer most interested in watching the “best” version or the version that’s most faithful to the original creator’s work? I prefer the later.
Hayao Miyazaki is known to prefer the French language dub of his Porco Rosso movie. I respect that preference, but that’s not my preference. I’m not interested in watching anime in a particular way because someone else prefers it that way, regardless of who that someone else is. I believe that anime is a uniquely Japanese art and therefore should be watched in Japanese to appreciate it’s original, authentic cultural and artistic characteristics. Even if a foreign language dub may be better; it’s not what the original artist created. Porco Rosso may be a film set in Adriatic, and creator Hayao Miyazaki may prefer the film dubbed in French, but it’s a Japanese film written with Japanese dialogue, filmed with Japanese dialogue, and originally released with Japanese dialogue. In my mind, the Japanese dialogue version is most faithful to the way the film was envisioned and created, so that’s how I want to watch it. Note that in the case of films like Armitage III: Polymatrix, Vampire Hunter D (2000), Shouji Kawamori’s “Shanghai Dragon” segment of Genius Party, and Mamoru Oshii’s Avalon, despite being Japanese created films, Japanese language was not their original intended language. In other words, when practicable, if Japanese creators envision their anime in a language other than Japanese; it’s originally made and released in a language other than Japanese. I’ve had no hesitation to watching “Shanghai Dragon” in Chinese, and Halo Legends, The Animatrix, and Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust in English because those languages were their originally intended language.
I accept the argument that “even if an artist made a work for a specific group of people, [the artist] may have to accept it be changed for other people to enjoy.” But that doesn’t mean that I, the viewer, have to choose or prefer the changed work. By implication, the presented argument suggests that foreign language dubbing is a necessary compromise. At its heart, foreign language dubbing is a marketing tool, not an intrinsic component of the original creative design. A creative and artistic distributor may be able to alter and “improve” an original creative work by tailoring it for a regional audience, but that doesn’t necessitate that I must prefer the version created by someone other than the original artist. Personally, I’d prefer an art world in which every viewer was receptive to seeing art as a representation of the artist’s personal creative vision; film the way its creators actually created it. But that’s not the way the world actually works. Film is not perceived as just creative art; it’s product that has to conform and be conformed to the preferences of its audience. Countless viewers prefer to watch film in a conveniently familiar language rather than watch film the way its artists made it. That’s a personal preference, and it’s not the way I choose to appreciate film.
On another side note, it is an undeniable fact that the Japanese word “anime” as used in Japan refers to all animation, regardless of national/cultural origin. But that’s a definition that only applies to Japanese language. In English, the word “anime” does not refer to any and all animation. In English conversation, Loony Toons, Fritz the Cat, and Sleeping Beauty are not anime. Likewise, in Japan the word “manga” means “comics,” and doesn’t necessarily denote a specific cultural origin. However, that use of the term does not carry over into English language. Sally Forth, Peanuts, Jim Kirby’s Fantastic Four and Captain America, Todd McFarlane’s Spawn, and Archie Comics are not manga. Furthermore, while ordinary, mainstream Japanese citizens use the words “anime” and “manga” as broad, generic terms, Japanese otaku, animators, and manga artists do not use those terms as generic references to any and all international works.
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Big applause to John! I cannot add anything else to this. I will just put emphasis on this:
“a true, hardcore otaku will accept no substitute or one-step-removed alteration of the original, especially not an alteration that did not come from the original artist. ”
My sentiments exactly, a true anime fan wont accept alteration of any kind and will always or at least anime-manga as close as possible as how it was meant to be, exatly as expressed by John.
For all others you are NOT TRUE fans, accept it or not.
Age-old argument, sure, but a lot of it just comes whittles down to how many filters are you willing to engage or endorse in your reception of the content? I don’t mean this as a manner of tolerance, but to clarify, as a matter of personal priority. John, obviously, prefers as few filters as possible. Other anime fans can absorb content more easily with one or more filters to the audio or video presentation.
On a less serious note, I’m pretty confident that if it were possible to simply stare at a physical copy of Japanese animation — tape or disc — and simply absorb its substance osmotically, many of us would opt for that instead.
Also, it’s a little ridiculous to assert any genuine, paying consumer’s affection or dedication to a medium is inherently dishonest or inferior just because they desire an alternate lens with which to consume their content.
I just maybe a lazy anime viewer but I don’t like reading subtitles. Having to read subtitles sometimes just takes me out of the story. I like dubs because I can both focus on visual imagery and the content of the story. After watching the english version of an anime, I will watch the japanese version and yes there is a more of a vocal rhythm to the dialogue that you usually don’t get with the english versions. But until I can speak conversational japanese, I will prefer to watch the english version first.
Everyone is free to enjoy “x” thing as they see like, in this case anime, dubbed,m subbed, edited, mutilated (macross), etc. In my cas I am not saying watching anime subbed is the correct way or not, that is for onself to decide.
A point touched here was John’s point of view of how a true -hardcore if you wish- anime fan like to see anime. I agree 120% and I am sure everyone that consider himesefl/herself a true hardcore anime fan would agree.
The 2 above user just confirmed that. I would find it surprising if someone were to call himself a true anime fan and say he/she prefers to watch anime dubbed, worst, edited.
“We” love anime (in my case manga as well) above a mere form of entertainment, we dont want to comfortably watch anime digested to fit or own cultural environment. “We” love all those Japanese cultural references LOST in dubs, we love to pick up new Japanese words while enjoying our beloved anime, we love the Japanese jokes, we are interested in JAPANESE CULTURE, we are overjoyed to see it approached from an anime perspective and be equally overjoyed once we make the pilgrimage to japan to see how the Japanese truly are (if we have the means to do so).
IT IS NOT about reading or not subtitles, for “us” true fans the natural thing to do is approach anime in its original form as much as our abilities permit, to watch it without a single edit, without a single cultural reference removed, to be overjoyed when we we have picked up some Japanese after studying or have watched so much anime that we can tell when a translator could have used a better approach for x translation.
@chas7400. You dont like subtitles because you have to read and lose focus of whats going on..are you lazy? Honestly this had never happened to me and now even less when I have just to look at subs when I dont know what was said, in many anime the japanese is easy enough :-); but I have said before that you would be lazy yes, but I guess you are just more of a casual fan, maybe well beyond casual but definitely not in the level or a true hardcore fan.
Does that makes me a better and you a worst anime fan? I think not, I think some of us take anime more seriously, are more interested -or a lot more- in japanese culture, enough to not tolerate the minimum alteration, enough to pick up words or want to learn Japanese so we can better understand what “really” is being said as subtitles will never be 100% accurate either but definitely WWAAAAYYY more than dubs.
I dunno… it’s hard to assert superiority in preferring an unaltered (by a 3rd party dubbing studio) version for a product that’s already an assemblage of many disparate 3rd parties, such as the multitude of writers, animators, studios, assorted tech people and sometimes multiple episode directors that work on any animated series. It’s definitely a personal preference to prefer a sub or dub over the other.
I think whether you’re a purist or not has everything to do with what entertains you. Do you see anime as opaque, arbitrary entertainment? If so, then you’re fine with the product compromising itself in order to “meet you half way”. You want the product to come to you, despite the foreign qualities that inevitably get lost in that transition.
What defines me as a purist is that I’m instead willing to “walk” as far as I reasonably can to the artwork. Immersing myself in the foreign sensibilities expressed in anime for example is what I ultimately find more entertaining. Since “art” is basically emotion communication, I want to feel what the artists felt when they envisioned and crafted the world of the anime, and catch all the emotional nuances and details they put into that world. After-the-fact 3rd party alterations only distance me from that objective.
I see anime (and all art/entertainment) as an immersive activity, rather than opaque & arbitrary entertainment. I’m one of those stereotypical purists who owns a projector-based home theater and frets over things like “original language”, “director’s cut” and “original aspect ratio”, because I ultimately want to connect to the core vision of the work.
Funny that the Star Wars Special Editions came up in the article. I see George Lucas Circa 1997 as a 3rd party to the original Star Wars Trilogy. Artists change over time… I know that from personal experience. It’s really hard to approach an old work by the old you and try to “enhance” its old sensibilities with your modern mindset. You become a 3rd party to your old self, and you can rarely one-up your old self on the same terms, much less conjure the emotions you had maybe decades ago. “Ghost in the Shell 2.0” is a great anime example of such a failure. This is why artists move on to new things, and why I’d love an HD copy of the old theatrical Star Wars.
>> “On a less serious note, I’m pretty confident that if it were possible to simply stare at a physical copy of Japanese animation — tape or disc — and simply absorb its substance osmotically, many of us would opt for that instead.”
I dunno, if art/entertainment is an experience, I’d rather experience it (which happens in real-time) rather than just “know of it” or “have it in memory” if I really cared about the anime in question. It’d be great if during that process the world around me could stop as I virtually watch the anime in a dream.
I have a problem with people who insist on only seeing a work in the original format in the way the original author intended or as close to it as possible and claim that it is the best way to see a work. That sounds nice and all but there are some problems with that position.
1. It presumes that the author’s presentation is perfect and that the author had all the skills and resources necessary to produce a perfect work that can only be made inferior by any attempt to alter or tamper with it. Of course this makes editors a blasphemous existence and the reinterpretation or remaking of the author’s works, even with more or better resources, treasonous. I can’t agree, I have seen many instances in which someone was able to substantially improve a work by reediting, remaking and altering the original. Sometimes authors have dumb ideas.
2. Some works are inaccessible to all but a very narrow audience and need to be changed not for marketing reasons but just to make the subject matter accessible outside a very narrow circle. Some animé can only be appreciated by Japanese otaku. Everyone else is going to need a translation and a lot of explanation and some things lose their effect if they need to be explained or translated. Some things cannot be translated at all and must be experienced. Thus making it impossible to experience the work as intended if you aren’t already the target audience. Sometimes you need to alter a doctoral thesis so that someone not on the cutting edge of science can appreciate it.
3. In some cases it is impractical to reproduce the original authors vision. Shakespeare’s plays were designed to be enjoyed in an open air theatre surrounded by an audience of that culture. A true fan would refuse to watch one of his plays using modern technology like TV’s and Movies and sound systems and of course there is a special place in hell for those who choose to re-imagine his works in a more contemporary setting.
Authors aren’t perfect. Sometimes they simply do not have the resources or the experience or the skills to produce an effective work. Sometimes someone else can do a better job than the author of the work. In regards to the subject at hand, sometimes animé is set in or uses western culture. There are times where the author does a bad job of it because they don’t properly understand the culture or the production crew can’t reproduce it. In cases like these a good English dub can correct some of the problems and produce a better work.
I understand the position that dubs are simply a commercial necessity, tacked on to allow the unprivileged and the lazy to watch an inferior version of the perfect Japanese original. You are welcome to that position and I will not argue it with you. However, while there is nothing wrong with wanting to see a work in as close to the original form as possible, I think it is very wrong to believe that it is the only or even the best way to view a work.
If you believe that a western work can be wonderfully interpreted in Japanese then it follows that it is possible that a Japanese work can be wonderfully interpreted in English. Unless, of course, there is something I don’t know about that makes the Japanese inherently superior to the West.
Chise, I do not want to be a “true” fan, whatever that gets you, or whatever satisfaction you feel you get from that. I want to enjoy my entertainment, and if I get better enjoyment out of English voices over the Japanese, then I go with that.
re: lesterf1020
1. Sure, it’s theoretically _possible_ for a 3rd party localization team to improve upon a finished work after-the-fact, but I wonder how often mediocre anime with blatant storytelling issues are “rescued” by run-of-the-mill English dubbing. At best, I’ve only seen them inadvertently made funnier with goofier lines and voice acting, but I’ve never seen one where its cultural or artistic value is noticeably improved.
2. Is it really worth trying to rewrite/dub an anime created for a niche, hardcore otaku crowd into a show that can be understood by a general audience? On the off chance it ends up being coherent and entertaining to the non-hardcore, it’s still a total obliteration of its cultural expression and otherwise the “spirit” of the anime. Sure, you _could_ do that, and someone out there is bound to find it entertaining, but it seems like a pointless exercise.
3. Adaptations (of say, Shakespeare) allow a new team of people to implement a new artistic vision for a preexisting work. That’s not quite the same as an English dub pasted on preexisting video & audio for the purposes of cheap & fast localization. Standard anime dubs aren’t the appropriate place to implement wholly new artistic visions on the source material, unless you get all Robotech on it. By default, anime dubs diminish & compromise the vision of the source material because they are constrained to what’s already in it. Maybe an unusually inspired performance or blatant flaws in the source will allow the dub (in some respects, and in its own way) to surpass the original, but anime dubs are not known for inspired performances from real acting talent, or inspired new visions for preexisting material.
It is also not the same as collaborations between artists (like, say, a director and a writer, or multiple writers) in search of a compelling artistic vision to realize into some new production. Dubs simply aren’t new productions in the same sense as Shakespeare adaptations or pop science books on esoteric subjects.
I’m basically arguing that standard anime dubbing by nature distances audiences from the cultural value and artistic ideas that the anime was created to express. Expression, like any art/entertainment, is the whole point of it and the core of the entertainment. I mean, if you really don’t care, and see anime as disposable arbitrary entertainment, then dubbing and otherwise intensive localization may as well be your thing. You’d rather have the anime come to you in a diminished form than exert the effort to meet it part-way for a richer experience.
That’s fine. I don’t place myself on a pedestal for being a purist. People have different views of the function of art & entertainment in their lives. I definitely do not agree, though, that English dubbing as part of after-the-fact localization, as implemented in the real world, is something that improves the artistic expression of an anime. There are too many inherent forces and constraints working against that.
Some people dont know how to read or dont read at all:
1. SUPERIORITY: Whoever say that thus fs us prefer to watch anime subbed are superior? A couple touched that which was never mentioned and I even said I dont feel better or superior, that everyone is free to watch and enjoy as they see fit and as mentioned its a preference. I definitely said there are levels and some of us have are more hardcore fans than others.
Do you see us superior to you? Do you feel inferior for preferring dubs that are definitely altering the essence of the anime? Because veryitime this kind od topic is touched
….some immediately jump to the superiority discussion, when no one has ever touched it.
2. SATISFACTION: @YotaruVegeta. You can watch anime as you see fit I dont care. I will enjoy it as I like: with its Japanese dub and not altered by a dub or with stupid edits. The satisfaction is not consider myself a true fan but to watch anime as unaltered a possible because that is simply how a like it.
3. YOU ENGLISH DUB HATER. Its true I find 95% of english dubs garbage, most voice actors have no talent. That is my opinion. Are Japanese superior? DEFINITELY.
Do I want hollywood movies with japanese dubs? HELL NO! I dont like US cartoon but do I want the simpsons with a “superior” japanese dub? HELL NO! DO I want to watch M.D. House with japanese dub? HELL NO!
I dont not like dubs, PERIOD. I want to watch stuff in its original language! Did I ever wanted Afro Samurai with a “superior” japanese dub? NEVER, its original dub was english and it was with quality voice actors, so i never desire to watch in with a japanese dub.
Again some people have a VERY HARD time understanding why we dont like dubs and alterations and hence why we dont like them and prefer subs. Give it a break with the superiority approach already.
It’s the damn Twilight argument all over again. Those of you who like dubs, go in your corner and watch dubs. Those of you who don’t like dubs, go in your corner and don’t watch dubs. Neither will make you a better fan, nor earn you any magical reward from the creators. End of conversation.
Ignoring the fact that John’s ENTIRE answer could have been summed up in a single word (“No.”), one of his points is a bit flawed. Yes, John, I agree with you that you should be able to see things just as the creators envisioned. What John forgot to mention is how very seldom creators actually realize their imaginings on film or paper. The whole editing issue’s already been brought up, as has been the issue of money/resources, so I’ll leave those alone. Just as big a problem is the fact that human imaginations are every bit as boundless as they are tricky. A lot of times, imagination just does not want to be translated for someone. Example: I draw. I draw frequently. I do not draw well. I say this, because even though I can imagine a great work in front of me, and even seem to be able to recognize what I should change to turn the doodle in front of me into a masterpiece, I can’t do it. That’s not my fault. It’s not the fault of the creators of anime when it happens to them. It just happens.
I think everyone needs to remember one important thing: People watch ____, in this case anime, for all different reasons. Some may want the foreign experience, others may lack the ability to process “foreignness”. They want familiarity and not be put out of their comfort zone.
This is a fact and it just happens to be that dubbing is a lot more thoughtless for other people, and for others they can read subtitles smoothly and not get urked by foreign languages voices.
I have no explanation for this, but I find a lot of dubs to be quite poor, but I can’t explain why. They almost seem really fake often; but I find this in Japanese audio asa well (I am fluent in both) That being said, the frequency in which it occurs in Japan is significantly less, and Japanese voice actor industry is a SERIOUS profession whereas in the US there is little chance you can feed yourself from “just voiceacting”.
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lesterf1020, while I agree with a lot of what you say on PRINCIPLE, I don’t find a lot of it to be relevant to the dubbing issues.
1. [It presumes that the author’s presentation is perfect]
Not only is perfection subjective, but original language dubbing is usually successful at doing its original job; seemless voices for characters in their country of origin.
[…]author had all resources to produce a perfect work that can only be made inferior by any attempt to tamper[..]
Once again, I don’t see how this has to do with dubbing. Furthermore, I don’t find it any business for another secondary company to mess with another persons work in order to “fix it”. That seems very strange of an idea to me. Editors are ok though, because they are within the expected framework of quality control within a creative process.
But dubbing doesn’t usually alter the story to the point where it “fixes” plotholes or alter major graphical differences unless its minor corrections.
2.Some works are inaccessible [..]need to be changed. Thus making it impossible to experience the work as intended if you aren’t already the target audience.
So… a dub helps that by cutting out the unique cultural quirks? Seems to me like missing out on things. Personally if I was watching a Korean show and they did something that was culturally unfamiliar, I’d much rather learn about it than for them to edit it out altogether because its “difficult to understand”.
If they really have to, they can add extra line or 2 like Princesss Mononoke. A movie or a show never HAD to be ALWAYS a “SELF-CONTAINED masterpiece.” If you show a TV show like … uh….Family guy or South park, no Japanese person would understand it even if translated accurately. Same goes for even something else like… Friends (? I guess?) because not all cultural differences need to be, or should be explained ON screen.
-I think it is very wrong to believe that it is the only or even the best way to view a work.
It shouldn’t considered the only way, but why not the best way? To me that seems like a posessive attitude over the word “best”. Its like you feel like you’re watching the show in a 2nd class fashion unless its the best way and everyone else claims their way is best.
Well, watching it dub may work best for you in terms of your personal enjoyment, or maybe the show is funny in dub making it the best way to have fun, but there’s just not arguing that watching a show in its original format is the best if you want to appreciate it as an art piece.
Dubs are fine too, though.
[If you believe that a western work can be wonderfully interpreted in Japanese then it follows that it is possible that a Japanese work can be wonderfully interpreted in English.]
It’s possible, but something is still lost in the translation to Japanese from a foreign language, obviously. That doesn’t change whatsoever.
“My sentiments exactly, a true anime fan wont accept alteration of any kind…”
I’m sorry, Chise, but this statement is quite ludicrous. Unless one was born Japanese, anime is altered even if one understands Japanese to translate it.
The “artists intent” is *completely* lost on anyone outside of Japan for not understanding culture, nuances/inflections in dialect, or basic understanding of day-to-day living in various parts of Japan. Even in our own country, people living in Indiana see Californians as “weird” and vice-versa, neither knowing anything about the other outside of “references” made by “the artist”.
If one wants to walk around with the self-ego of “understanding anime in its true from” while knowing nothing of the Japanese language, that’s their call to do so. But their credibility of knowledge isn’t going to be respected by those like me who know one doesn’t understand a language simply because *someone else translated it*.
The only one who can call themselves a true hardcore otaku were born and raised in Japan. The rest simply make ignorant statements.
Bitterly condesending statement from past experience:
chise believes perference of the format defines the fan, but does not think being a true fan means supporting anime by paying for it. Zing!
PetrifiedJello: so your thinking is, because it’s a foreign language product from a foreign culture, you may as well gut the original voice performances, replace all the cultural references & gags with arbitrary domestic ones, maybe even graphically replace all the rice balls with ham sandwiches and replace the theme song with a domestic radio hit. Oh, and turn one of the characters black and have him speak ebonics because the story now takes place in America (such a localization actually exists for a Playstation JRPG).
This all assumes that the cultural/language barrier is so strong, all of the original storytelling will simply fall on the deaf ears of international viewers, and it may as well be arbitrarily replaced. I basically don’t believe that one bit, that (in your words) “the artist’s intent is completely lost on anyone outside of Japan”. That is an absolute statement saying there’s no value in watching a foreign film with the minimum of necessary alterations (i.e. subtitles), or even exposing yourself to a story from another culture. It’s basically a statement saying all of the original storytelling (not limited to just the voice performances) is worthless to international audiences.
In the world of art & entertainment, there are no absolutes. Sure, a viewer listening to a performance outside of his language and simultaneously reading its translated meaning will miss a good portion of its original expression. However, if you gut out the performances and drop in a new one with a new cast in a different language, he will surely miss _all_ of the original performance’s expression.
Then we get to the inevitable fallback argument of “What’s the value in the _original_ expressions anyway?”
Maybe because I want to watch the anime, and not some weird version of it where its audio has been replaced and crapped all over? Is that so far-fetched? When you go to the theater to watch Batman, they don’t give you a ticket for Superman. When I want a foreign product, I don’t want a version that’s been altered way beyond necessity for marketing purposes.
I understand your knee-jerk reaction to Chise, because I also think that determining what makes a “true fan” is the wrong way to frame the argument. But I don’t accept that the original expression is worthless to international audiences, or that excessive domestication (i.e. dubbing, replacement of cultural references, etc.) does anything to enhance the expression of the original product.
PockyBox.com: I’m guessing what you’re saying stems from the fact that fansubs are by definition subtitled, but it also ignores the abundance of region-1 DVD rips torrented right alongside. Also, I don’t think dub fans are likely to import Japanese discs ($$$ as you well know) or sign up for services like Crunchyroll
I’m surprised that the dubs vs. subs argument is one that will still rage on for decades to come.
For me it’s not about “purity” or the creator’s vision concerning the voice actors. For me it’s good acting vs. poor acting. I think Japanese VAs win over American ones because the voices don’t seem like a match for the characters.
Usually my ritual is to watch an episode in Japanese, then another in English; may the best cast win. 🙂
Just want to address one point raised in the discussion. I do concede that it’s absolutely possible for a foreign editor or dubbing studio to improve upon an original work. I did not say that there’s no such thing as a dub that’s better than the original language audio. I’m not looking for the “best” version; I’m interested in watching the original version. If the original artist or creative team was unable to fully realize their creative vision, so be it. That’s regrettable, but I’m still more interested in that incomplete, inferior but authentic version than a complete, superior version created by a foreigner who had nothing to do with the original creation.
seanny: No, it was a reference to some forum drama a while back. chise was basically saying people don’t need to financially support the anime industry because they weren’t releasing titles in their preferred format or they couldn’t afford them, so fan subs were a justifable and permanent solution. I found it ironic that chise was rallying about being a ” true hardcore anime fan” because of his/her language choice while disregarding the people that bring us anime. Just couldn’t keep my big yap shut.
I will not argue the point as I don’t consider myself a hardcore otaku, just a dedicated fan. I do have 2 questions.
First I believe that counterfeiting can be an art form as much as the original creation. While I am not call dubs that, I merely wonder if John can appreciate a truly well done dub. I note you stated you basically don’t care about them, but on the rare occasion were they are truly very well done, would you at least watch an episode or two just to see if it is as good as critics, fans, and the like say it is?
Second I also believe all cinema has an inherent weakness of being created where it was. Example, Baccano! is a story is very much set in a foreign land from the perspective of the original artist as the story, setting, and most of the primary cast is American. English was never going to be the original language, partly because the original intended audience was to be Japanese. Just like when American studios make Samurai movies set in Japan, it will be in English even though the story is foreign in nature. My question is if the original artist and/or director of an anime has a major role in the dubbing of a series/movie and freely admits that the said dub was the language he originally wanted to use, but could not, which version would you prefer? In this case, the original language is contrary to the artist intended vision and the dub would be an artist change.
Wow!!! Looks like everybody wants to contribute their two cents is this discussion. This reply is for chise. I never called myself a hardcore anime fan. I am very new to this whole anime thing. I watch some movies but mainly anime series and hat watching anything with subtitles be it a foreign movie from France or anime. I am a photographer and I like to pick the details in the background or scenery and/or set design. When something is in english I can focus on those details and still understand what is going on in the story. I cannot do that when something is in a language I don’t know well.
Sorry, about the bad spelling in the comment above. I rushed through typing it.
Wow, so many comments. I agree with a lot of the higher-level theoretical reasons for choosing subs, but I think there are two more practical reasons also. One was what YotaruVegeta said, the VA industry is much, much better in Japan than in the US, at least for the ones who get chosen for dubs. They are much better at being in character and there are a good variety of them. When I hear English dubs, it sounds like they’re all done by the same 5 people (and to some extent, they are), and they can’t pull of that many voices very well.
Also, I feel you lose some cultural hints and intonations when hear a foreign language dub instead of a native voice actor. I doubt most dubbers get much attention from the director who actually directed the episode, either.
Another thing about dubs, I think the industry also is still being held back by steortypes about “comics” and audience age expectations. Sometimes I feel a show is being deliberately “dummed-down” to what the redistributors think their audience is.
@math4origami
They stopped doing that over a decade ago. Now most, if not all, dubs try their best to change as little as possible. I still don’t like some of the jokes being Americanized much like how they will replace rice balls with bread rolls, the change seems pointless and arbitrary. I also don’t like name changes.
As for changing the story or dummed down variations to dialogue, I don’t know of that happening within the last 8 to 10 years. Even when dialogue has to change to match the lip movement, they go out of their way to ensure nothing about the meaning of the statement is changed. I have literally watched anime dubbed and again with the unaltered sub-titles just look for exactly what you claim and not found a case of it since ADV died.