Strawberry Panic

[Daichi]

Originally Posted by ThePhillyFlash

I thought Tamao was cute, and while it was obvious she had a crush on Nagisa from the word go, she was a borderline stalker at times, and she started early, what with the scene from episode one where she insisted on taking Nagisa's measurements under the pretense (fib) of saying she needed the figures to order her uniform, even though that wasn't required.

By the way, I know I'm probably alone here, but was I the only SP fan who thought Nagisa committed a serious fashion faux pas by wearing cloddish brown knee boots with her stylish black uniform?

I never paid attention to the shoes, but the St.Miator uniforms weren't as good looking as the other uniforms from the other two academies.

[Haruhi]

Originally Posted by ninemil

There was nothing forced about it - and if you thought the show was standard shipping-fare focused on who would end up with who, you completely missed the point. Strawberry Panic is a show about grief, rivalry, and compromise. It's one of the few yuri animes that actually give the couples within the cast closure, and then deal with the impact that has on everyone within the new couple's social circle. People get hurt, friends fall out, and then have to find a new point of balance to remain friends afterward. Some people end up alone all the same – just like real life. Nothing short of a master piece, marred only by the service quota at the end, and Amane’s lazer-guided amnesia, neither of which was necessary.

Strawberry Panic was a show that centered everything around Shizuma and Nagisa. And the writers were constantly trying to push them together with poor scripting. So, yes, of course it had closure. Kind of hard not to when you know from episode one what was going to happen and at that the tone of the show was set within minutes of the first episode. It's been several years since I've seen it, but I remember that Shizuma and Nagisa, as a couple, didn't have the flow and grace that other yuri anime have. After watching Marimite, SP might as have been an ecchi show. I appreciate that you're looking at it so optimistically, but the show was nothing the way you describe it.. if it were, I wouldn't have forgotten so much about it.

Btw the amnesia thing was... horrible. It took what could have been a slightly-less-than-mediocre title to a completely terrible series. And Shizuma's pathetic downward spiral was about as deep as a puddle of water. And Nagisa had about as much personality as... Bella from Twilight.

[ninemil]

Originally Posted by Haruhi

...if it were, I wouldn't have forgotten so much about it.

And hark here speaks the voice of authority on all things yuri, yes? I believe the sales figures speak differently to your superior point of view - enough so that they're re-running yet another press of the DVD collection as we speak.

Perhaps you should consider watching it with something other than pathetic fan rush-subs. If you watched it that long ago, even the best of the releases, Doremi, is so riddled with translation errors it makes a joke of the script.

But whatever - I concede to your mighty authority, lol. Let me guess, Marimite is a work of art, yes?

[old hat]

Originally Posted by ninemil

And hark here speaks the voice of authority on all things yuri, yes?

She was talking about this specific show. Where did this "voice of authority on all things yuri" straw man come from?

Originally Posted by ninemil

I believe the sales figures speak differently to your superior point of view - enough so that they're re-running yet another press of the DVD collection as we speak.

That couldn't possibly be because it has more fanservice and much more sexual content than these shows usually have. Also, appeal to popularity is another fallacy.

Originally Posted by ninemil

Perhaps you should consider watching it with something other than pathetic fan rush-subs. If you watched it that long ago, even the best of the releases, Doremi, is so riddled with translation errors it makes a joke of the script.

She couldn't possibly just dislike it. You like it therefore it must be great right?

Originally Posted by ninemil

But whatever - I concede to your mighty authority, lol. Let me guess, Marimite is a work of art, yes?

I see no mention of Marimite in her posts. Another straw man.

[ninemil]

Originally Posted by old hat

I see no mention of Marimite in her posts. Another straw man.

Originally Posted by Haruhi

After watching Marimite, SP might as have been an ecchi show.

You're not reading very hard. Either way, the collective arrogance of 'I forgot most of it, so it must have been crap,' is little more than flame bait waiting to get bitten at. I bit.

[old hat]

You're right. I did miss that. It's not particularly relevant to the main points she was making though. She doesn't actually compare the two shows other than saying that Strawberry Panic is more ecchi which is just the truth. Strawberry Panic is much more ecchi than Marimite. It's a pretty ecchi show and has much more sexual content than shows like Marimite or Kashimashi. It's about the most ecchi yuri series I have ever seen that wasn't outright hentai.

You didn't bite at it because it's critical and you are a huge Strawberry Panic fan and Strawberry Panic fanfic writer? That's not part of your reaction? Of course it is.

What she said wasn't particularly flamebait. It was just critical. I thought some aspects of the development of the relationship between Shizuma and Nagisa were rather forced myself. It was obvious that the authors were going there from the start and that they were determined to get there come hell or high water. Some of the drama and relationship is Strawberry Panic feels forced to me too. They even resort to the hacnkneyed old class play plot device at one point.

Marimite has it's problems like slow pacing and relationships that never go anywhere ever *cough*Sachiko/Yumi*cough* but they are different problems.

[Haruhi]

Originally Posted by ninemil

And hark here speaks the voice of authority on all things yuri, yes? I believe the sales figures speak differently to your superior point of view - enough so that they're re-running yet another press of the DVD collection as we speak.

lol.. tons of anime get at least second DVD re-releases.. typically in a more economical collection instead of having to buy multiple DVDs for 25 dollars + a disc. Doesn't mean it's a good anime.

Perhaps you should consider watching it with something other than pathetic fan rush-subs. If you watched it that long ago, even the best of the releases, Doremi, is so riddled with translation errors it makes a joke of the script.

Yes, that MUST be it. It wasn't the storyline that sucked, or the paper-thin plot that sucked, or the inclusion of idiotic little elements like amnesia, the poor art and animation quality, the total LACK of character obstacles between Shizuma and Nagisa that sucked. It was the poor translation of the fansubs! I'm betting that the official release has them acting less like total idiots and the writing is something along the line of Shakespeare! Are you serious?

But whatever - I concede to your mighty authority, lol. Let me guess, Marimite is a work of art, yes?

Marimite being a work of art or not isn't the issue. It's just that it's plain better and the wroters aren't trying so hard for Sachiko and Yumi to hook up so much as they are trying to develop each character on their own before going on to attempting to have them kiss and make up.. literally - which, I'm glad they haven't, even after like three seasons, because it maintains a artistically beautiful relationship without sucking on each others faces. (But that's just me though. I think their relationship is very gorgeous because they don't need to express it the way SP girls have to)

You're not reading very hard. Either way, the collective arrogance of 'I forgot most of it, so it must have been crap,' is little more than flame bait waiting to get bitten at. I bit.

If a series is crap, I forget about it. That's not arrogance. That's just a natural reaction. I don't flame bait. I know better than that. I just don't feel I should soften my tone about the series, considering that I felt it was... total crap.

You didn't bite at it because it's critical and you are a huge Strawberry Panic fan and Strawberry Panic fanfic writer? That's not part of your reaction? Of course it is.

lol.. thanks. That explains so much.

[ninemil]

Originally Posted by Haruhi

Marimite being a work of art or not isn't the issue.

People like you amuse me intensely, and I've been hearing this crap endlessly since 2006. You pitch your tent, dig yourself in, and then wave your fist angrily at anything that dare challenge your fandom. The sheer snobbery and dismissiveness of your first post on the series gave you away immediately. It makes rational discussion with your ilk almost impossible...

Originally Posted by Haruhi

It's just that it's plain better and the wroters aren't trying so hard for Sachiko and Yumi to hook up so much as they are trying to develop each character on their own before going on to attempting to have them kiss and make up.. literally - which, I'm glad they haven't, even after like three seasons, because it maintains a artistically beautiful relationship without sucking on each others faces. (But that's just me though. I think their relationship is very gorgeous because they don't need to express it the way SP girls have to)

So what, let me get this straight... the producers go four seasons without giving any of the main cast closure, or without actually conducting a proper mature discussion of social consequence or the fall out of two girls having a relationship together, and you consider that a good thing? Marimite purports to be a yuri anime - it even splashes entwined, half naked girls across it's ED sequences in desperation to hold an audience, and yet is incapable of actually discussing the content matter maturely, and you think that's a good thing? o_O Funnily enough, girls in a relationship with other girls do actually kiss... The same way guys seeing other guys do too. They hold hands. They spend time together doing things other than moping around in a fit of wangst, or struggling with their embarrassment. Why is that so offensive to you? Do you have some underlying issue with homosexual relationships or something? Expressing mutual affection is part and parcel of actually dealing with the topic the show is written to discuss...

You didn't bite at it because it's critical and you are a huge Strawberry Panic fan and Strawberry Panic fanfic writer? That's not part of your reaction? Of course it is.

300,000 words don’t write themselves unless you have something to write about. I’ll scoff at anyone who claims publically, as Haruhi did, that Strawberry Panic has nothing of substance in it. Am I defending my fandom irrationally, or do I just know more about the show, and take issue with people offhandedly slating it out of blind snobbery?

I remember when Strawberry Panic first aired, thinking, "my god, are we actually getting a yuri show that contains yuri content and closure, without needing some b*llshit alien experiment/bodyswap/transgender/emotionally-compromised excuse for the couple to get together?" After two years of struggling with the hoard who raved constantly about how Marimite or the other endless subtext model shows were the dog's proverbials, I was mightily relieved to see a directorial team actually attempt to discuss homosexuality properly. And then, as a bonus, it tackled grief, self-isolation, Japan's heavy sense of social commitment, unhealthy obsession, the difference between love and lust, the limits of friendship loyalties, and still managed to keep enough of a sense of humour on the way to stop you from slitting your wrists. Sure, it had its issues, but to call a show like that shallow? Perhaps non-shipping content isn't to Haruhi's taste, but to slate a product because the main pairing is predetermined, and then ignore the thousand-and-one other important messages being imparted is just short-sighted and blind. It screams of someone too busy picking out the format change compared to their favourite current show, rather than paying attention to what was on the screen in front of them.

But I’ll leave it at that. For anyone reading this thread that hasn’t seen Stopani yet – ignore the detractors, and be aware that many of the people slating it have predetermined fandom preferences that make them incredibly derogatory about the show offhand. Missing out on Strawberry Panic is like a mecha fan missing out on Evangelion – neither series is perfect, both contain all kinds of questionable silliness, but you’d be denying yourself one of the defining pillars of the genre by not watching them.

[old hat]

Originally Posted by ninemil

People like you amuse me intensely, and I've been hearing this crap endlessly since 2006. You pitch your tent, dig yourself in, and then wave your fist angrily at anything that dare challenge your fandom. 300,000 words don’t write themselves unless you have something to write about. I’ll scoff at anyone who claims publically, as Haruhi did, that Strawberry Panic has nothing of substance in it. Am I defending my fandom irrationally, or do I just know more about the show, and take issue with people offhandedly slating it out of blind snobbery?

We both know how much verbiage fandom can produce without much of anything to actually write about. The volume of verbiage produced on a wide variety of nonsensical crack pairings proves that. That you produced 300,000 words or even 300,000,000 words on it doesn't prove it is a thing of great depth. It just proves that you think about it a whole lot. That's what hardcore fans do.

I think a third option is more likely than either one of those. You are a fan and are therefore inclined to see any criticism of it as motivated by blind snobbery or some other conveniently irrational reason so that you can dismiss it. You love it therefore it's great therefore anyone who doesn't see it as great must be blind or dumb or have some other irrational reason for not liking it. They can't possibly have just watched it and thought it wasn't very good and dislike it for actual reasons....except that they can.

I like Strawberry Panic. I like it enough that I bought it as singles back when no boxed set was available. I have very few shows as singles. I liked that relationships actually went somewhere and at least some of the couples were actually shown as couples and as being physically intimate. I like the art style. I like a lot of the characters. It has its problems though. Some of the drama is pretty contrived especially some of the devices used like the hackneyed class play trope. Some of it seemed thrown in to further complicate the already tangled relationship map. They give an in-story reason why Kaname is so keen on Yaya but it's pretty thin especially compared to the manga.

[Haruhi]

Originally Posted by ninemil

People like you amuse me intensely, and I've been hearing this crap endlessly since 2006. You pitch your tent, dig yourself in, and then wave your fist angrily at anything that dare challenge your fandom. The sheer snobbery and dismissiveness of your first post on the series gave you away immediately. It makes rational discussion with your ilk almost impossible...

lol. So, in other words, people who have opinions different from yours amuse you intensely? That's good. If everyone in the world thought like you, I'm sure it would be a very crappy and boring world. On the subject of amusing, though, I also find it particularly amusing how personally you're taking it that I... hated SP. I watched the entire series from start to finish. I thought the show lost interest fast but I gave it the benefit of the doubt and hoped the writers wouldn't be so one-dimensionally transparent with the characters. Sometimes, a series can wrap itself up so nicely so that the rest of the show is actually redeemable. That is not the case with SP. If I were as dismissive about the series as you idiotically think I was, why the hell would I watch 20 plus episodes? You speak of shaking your fist angrily at anyone that challenges one's fandom, yet here you are.. trolling me because I called the series crap (which it was) and was blunt about it. Make no mistake, pal. I'm not here to disguise my opinions so that it's expressed nicely. I could, but that's a waste of my time and I feel that I should be curt about subpar series. SP was crap. I called it out. If you liked it, more power to you. But approaching me

So what, let me get this straight... the producers go four seasons without giving any of the main cast closure, or without actually conducting a proper mature discussion of social consequence or the fall out of two girls having a relationship together, and you consider that a good thing?

I felt the series did a great job at getting their relationship started, had it blossom a healthy amount and let them actually grow up as characters. Just because the characters didn't hop into bed or make out with each other doesn't mean they didn't develop their relationship.

Marimite purports to be a yuri anime - it even splashes entwined, half naked girls across it's ED sequences in desperation to hold an audience, and yet is incapable of actually discussing the content matter maturely, and you think that's a good thing? o_O

Yeah, God forbid the Marimite girls don't screw each others' brains out! Or at least seal the deal with a hot n' heavy kiss just so the viewer can say "Oh, that's so mature!"

Funnily enough, girls in a relationship with other girls do actually kiss... The same way guys seeing other guys do too. They hold hands. They spend time together doing things other than moping around in a fit of wangst, or struggling with their embarrassment. Why is that so offensive to you? Do you have some underlying issue with homosexual relationships or something?

Yes. I have a HUGE issue with homosexual relationships. That's why I watched shows that have decidedly homosexual themes because I have an issue with it! In fact, I hated SP, not because it was poorly written, but because the girls love each other sexually! Oh, the HORROR! Okay, seriously. My issue isn't with homosexual relationships. Some of my best friends are in homosexual relationships. My issue is with POOR WRITING. And SP was riddled with it. You can try to dance around the issue of why I hated it, but the core of it is is the same reason anyone hates a work of fiction - because it's poorly written. That's it!

Expressing mutual affection is part and parcel of actually dealing with the topic the show is written to discuss...

lol. Expressing mutual affection is fine! I'm totally okay with girls kissing girls and boys kissing boys. You want to know what I hate? Wait for it.. I'm getting deja vu.. oh, yes! BAD WRITING.

300,000 words don’t write themselves unless you have something to write about. I’ll scoff at anyone who claims publically, as Haruhi did, that Strawberry Panic has nothing of substance in it. Am I defending my fandom irrationally, or do I just know more about the show, and take issue with people offhandedly slating it out of blind snobbery?

You can read as much into SP as possible. But at the end, it's a shallow, crappy anime with pathetic character development and a one-track path into "Let's hook up these two, bad writing be damned!" route. If you have to "know more about the show" to enjoy it as much as you did, something bad happened. And that would be bad writing, my dear. You can call it blind snobbery. You can call me whatever you want. Doesn't change that SP was... awful. Again, I forgot the jist of the series and I tend to have a pretty good memory about things I'm at least slightly fond of. SP was so forgettably bad that I can't specifically point out why it was so bad. It was that bad!

I remember when Strawberry Panic first aired, thinking, "my god, are we actually getting a yuri show that contains yuri content and closure, without needing some b*llshit alien experiment/bodyswap/transgender/emotionally-compromised excuse for the couple to get together?"

I had high hopes for the show. The art was pretty, the characters were well-designed and a series that would be both pretty and mature at the same time piqued my interest. Little did I know that the quality of everything was thrown out the window and all I got in the end was "closure" in that the writers FINALLY hooked up Shizuma and Nagisa together... again, even though it was so painfully obvious they were going to. If you thought, at any point, that they wouldn't hook up, you're either naive, don't have eyes or expected some deeper form of writing - which SP didn't have.

After two years of struggling with the hoard who raved constantly about how Marimite or the other endless subtext model shows were the dog's proverbials, I was mightily relieved to see a directorial team actually attempt to discuss homosexuality properly

.

Right! Because, you know, homosexuality CAN'T be discussed properly without there being a kiss, or some some other obvious physical representation of it, right? Marimite characters connecting to each other emotionally means nothing if they don't consummate their relationship, right? How shallow are you? You have to have the writers draw out "they're gay" for you to put two and two together?

And then, as a bonus, it tackled grief, self-isolation, Japan's heavy sense of social commitment, unhealthy obsession, the difference between love and lust, the limits of friendship loyalties, and still managed to keep enough of a sense of humour on the way to stop you from slitting your wrists.

None of which was a very notable or apparent theme in SP. And the "humour" was about as amusing as someone telling a joke everyone already knew the answer to. Sorry, you can add all the euphemism to the show's shallow story and plot as you want. Doesn't change anything. It's shallow.

Sure, it had its issues, but to call a show like that shallow?

It's shallow. Maybe not the shallowest of series, but saying it's as deep as you're implying it is? No.

Perhaps non-shipping content isn't to Haruhi's taste, but to slate a product because the main pairing is predetermined, and then ignore the thousand-and-one other important messages being imparted is just short-sighted and blind. It screams of someone too busy picking out the format change compared to their favourite current show, rather than paying attention to what was on the screen in front of them.

A series having a pre-determined pairing doesn't really break the story. So many shows have that, but it turns out to be decent to good, Marimite included. Want to know what breaks a story though? Bad writing! You act like I went into the show expecting it to be like Marimite. Quite the contrary. I was expecting something even deeper and more mature than what Marimite offered, since the maturity level was pretty evident in how easily girls flirt with each other and that physical contact was more liberally done. That's about as deep as SP ever got into maturity. I'll say it again so you can get it into your thick head.

SP was bad on its own merits, not compared to others. Suck it up and move on. If you like it, more power to you. There are tons of shows that people consider trash that I genuinely enjoy.

But I’ll leave it at that. For anyone reading this thread that hasn’t seen Stopani yet – ignore the detractors, and be aware that many of the people slating it have predetermined fandom preferences that make them incredibly derogatory about the show offhand. Missing out on Strawberry Panic is like a mecha fan missing out on Evangelion – neither series is perfect, both contain all kinds of questionable silliness, but you’d be denying yourself one of the defining pillars of the genre by not watching them.

lol.. nobody's going to listen to you. SP has already been forgotten in the sea of obscurity. The fact that we're even discussing it now, given how easily forgettable and crappy SP is, is a testament that miracles happen.

[Haruhi]

Oh, and I should make note that I was an avid fan of Tamao and Nasiga hooking up. At least Tamao was a good friend and loyal to Nagisa. If nothing else, I'm at least glad the writers had Nagisa return to her dorm and insert that little awkward moment they had between the two on opposite sides of the door. It was too little, too late, but at least it shows that Tamao is still there and not completely forgotten. Stupid *** Shizuma. Ugh.

Just putting it out there. =)

[old hat]

Shizuma seemed like she was using Nagisa for her own purposes with little regard for Nagisa's feelings or well-being for most if not all of the series. Nagisa is just a way to get over her own grief and Nagisa as a person doesn't matter. At times, Shizuma seems almost predatory using her reputation as Etoile to wow a younger girl. Tomao always seemed more loyal, caring and trustworthy to me.

Tomao kind of reminded me of Tomoyo Daidoji though which made me like her more than I might have based on her character alone. She borrows a little sheen from Tomoyo.

[Haruhi]

Ah, yes. Tomoyo. My absolutely favourite CLAMP character.

[Daichi]

Originally Posted by old hat

Shizuma seemed like she was using Nagisa for her own purposes with little regard for Nagisa's feelings or well-being for most if not all of the series. Nagisa is just a way to get over her own grief and Nagisa as a person doesn't matter. At times, Shizuma seems almost predatory using her reputation as Etoile to wow a younger girl. Tomao always seemed more loyal, caring and trustworthy to me.

Tomao kind of reminded me of Tomoyo Daidoji though which made me like her more than I might have based on her character alone. She borrows a little sheen from Tomoyo.

1. I haven't seen the whole anime yet, so thank you for ruining it for me!!!!
2. I also do agree that Tamao would have made a better match.

[Daichi]

Btw, my standpoint on anime is, it isn't horrible to me until I finish it!