Dragonball and philosophy

[GadmaCross4]

Do you find anything philosophical in this anime?
....

[Leader Desslock]

"Might makes right"? "The good guys always win"? "It's okay to punch the bad guys"?

We're talking about Dragonball. The target demographic for the series isn't particularly known for philosophising.

[Samurai Drifter]

I've seen a lot of weird threads on AN, but this ranks among the weirdest. Excluding threads in the hentai section, of course.

[Ejinathan]

philosophy huh .

Well there is: if there's no hope, theres a limit for you to break.

Prolly also "power is a blast"

But still there are good things in it , with large emotional elements .

[JFaulkner]

Originally Posted by Leader Desslock

We're talking about Dragonball. The target demographic for the series isn't particularly known for philosophising.

This is logically independent of whether Dragonball actually has any philosophy. An irrelevant ad hominem statement.

There are signs of "philosophy" in Dragonball. "Philosophy" covers such a large area that it's not that hard to find such signs. I don't think Dragonball goes into such topics in much depth though. Some of the signs are, in no particular order:

1. Dragonball GT - Goku turning back into a child and then saving the earth by becoming adult again. Parallels to myths where the hero undergoes a rebirth - here symbolized by Goku becoming a child again.

2. Goku's leanings towards mercy - which worked for Piccolo, but did not for Freezer (or however you spell its name).

3. The evil/good split in Goku and Vegeta. Both have these elements, but chose to act according to the welfare of humans at important junctures. Shows the capability of all people to be both evil and good (even Goku, portrayed as a paradigm of virtue, has his dark side - e.g. enjoying fighting).

4. When the saiyans turn into monkeys, they lose consciousness and go on a bestial rampage. This suggests that the monkey aspect of saiyans represent the uncontrollable instincts, and how this can be harnessed for the benefit or detriment of mankind.

5. Shen-Ron is obviously the God concept in Dragonball - the ability to perform great miracles under certain circumstances, but curiously unwilling to just hand humanity a "blank cheque". In plain English, certain events appear miraculous, but some unwanted circumstances appear unavoidable and part of a wider scheme of "fate".

Note that I am not saying Dragonball is deep.

[Suiko Eiji]

I've been mulling over this thread for a few days, but as I really have few original ideas of my own, I needed someone to bounce off of. Thanks to JFaulkner for giving me something to comment on.

Originally Posted by JFaulkner

This is logically independent of whether Dragonball actually has any philosophy. An irrelevant ad hominem statement.

It's also, fairly true. And this comes from a long-time Dragonball fan.

Originally Posted by JFaulkner

There are signs of "philosophy" in Dragonball. "Philosophy" covers such a large area that it's not that hard to find such signs. I don't think Dragonball goes into such topics in much depth though. Some of the signs are, in no particular order:

My retorts below shall follow. Now, I will admit this at the head of the conversation - I'm not a philosophical sort of person. If I see something below and claim it isn't philosophical in nature, and it actually does fall into this wide-range you claim, please simply correct me and we can go from there.

Originally Posted by JFaulkner

1. Dragonball GT - Goku turning back into a child and then saving the earth by becoming adult again. Parallels to myths where the hero undergoes a rebirth - here symbolized by Goku becoming a child again.

It's an allegory, which is purely literary in nature. The only parallel I can draw is that all epic stories from ancient cultures tend to have plenty of similar characteristics. Gokuu, over the entire manga, is more like a modern Japanese version of Beowulf and has more in common with the Saxon Sagas than Sun Wu Kong from Journey to the West.

Originally Posted by JFaulkner

2. Goku's leanings towards mercy - which worked for Piccolo, but did not for Freezer (or however you spell its name).

I'd say it's mainly a character trait and a borderline flaw. After fighting Gokuu, nearly every villain reformed: Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Chaozu, Piccolo Ma Jr., Vegeta, and Majin Buu.

If we were to argue a specific philosophy, I would say that this shows that not everyone who does bad things is truly and irreversibly evil. However, also surrounding these villains were people who were truly and irreversibly evil: Tsuru-sennin and Tao Pai Pai, Piccolo Daimaou, Freeza, and Cell. Villains such as these, I don't think, play-out to a higher philosophy but are more the typical foes necessary for a series like Dragonball to succeed. Again, an allegorical throw-back to ancient hero-epics.

Originally Posted by JFaulkner

3. The evil/good split in Goku and Vegeta. Both have these elements, but chose to act according to the welfare of humans at important junctures. Shows the capability of all people to be both evil and good (even Goku, portrayed as a paradigm of virtue, has his dark side - e.g. enjoying fighting).

While I agree with Vegeta having internal and external conflicts, which demonstrate his changing role from villain to hero (more so than others such as Tenshinhan or Piccolo), to claim Gokuu's enjoyment from fighting, or challenges, would be to claim that violence is inherently wrong which is something I cannot agree to.

Originally Posted by JFaulkner

4. When the saiyans turn into monkeys, they lose consciousness and go on a bestial rampage. This suggests that the monkey aspect of saiyans represent the uncontrollable instincts, and how this can be harnessed for the benefit or detriment of mankind.

Again, I'll argue allegory. Sun Wu Kong also turned into a berserk monkey, IIRC.

Originally Posted by JFaulkner

5. Shen-Ron is obviously the God concept in Dragonball - the ability to perform great miracles under certain circumstances, but curiously unwilling to just hand humanity a "blank cheque". In plain English, certain events appear miraculous, but some unwanted circumstances appear unavoidable and part of a wider scheme of "fate".

Shen Ron is only one of the mystical divinities in the Dragonworld. He shares space with Kami-sama, Karin-sama, Kai-ou-sama, the other Kai-ou from other worlds and hierarchies, and Enma Daimaou - only to name a few. Each of these divinities, despite their power, also have limitations to said power, which might cater more to eastern religions' philosophical roots in balance.

Originally Posted by JFaulkner

Note that I am not saying Dragonball is deep.

Not insinuating you are; but perhaps just motivating discussion. I am merely retorting from that angle as well. The OP was obviously very vague in his question.

[JFaulkner]

Originally Posted by Suiko Eiji

It's an allegory, which is purely literary in nature. The only parallel I can draw is that all epic stories from ancient cultures tend to have plenty of similar characteristics. Gokuu, over the entire manga, is more like a modern Japanese version of Beowulf and has more in common with the Saxon Sagas than Sun Wu Kong from Journey to the West.

I think your allegory would come under what I call "philosophy". The trouble with "philosophy" is that there's no formal definition of it. Sure, in academia, you get your basic subjects like logic, epistemology, morality etc., and no doubt Wikipedia would give you a laundry list of topics, but within the basic subjects, there are so many categories which are relevant. For example, some "philosophers" put a big emphasis on knowing science because it helps to eliminate errors, whereas others like to dig out morals from ancient books or create stories of their own.

As an allegory, I think you're right in that DragonBall is mainly devised to tell an interesting story, with no sustained focus on crafting a hidden underlying message (unlike, for example the allegory of the cave by Plato, or Nietzsche's Thus Spake Zarathustra). But you pointed out the similarities that DB has with other epic stories, and I think there is the broad intent by the creators that Goku is supposed to be some sort of "good" hero battling against the forces of "evil" and winning. So I would say that, at least on a shallow level, there are allusions to the idea of good vs evil. I would say this falls under "philosophy" because it is a representation of the eternal clash between "good" and "evil" or more broadly, two antagonistic forces with opposing ideas.

Originally Posted by Suiko Eiji

I'd say it's mainly a character trait and a borderline flaw. After fighting Gokuu, nearly every villain reformed: Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Chaozu, Piccolo Ma Jr., Vegeta, and Majin Buu.

I agree it's a character trait which approaches a flaw, but I think this trait was deliberately given to Goku to emphasize his role as the archetypal compassionate hero; merciful but strong, dispensing justice according to a set of rules. This is Goku's way of living, his "philosophy". I wouldn't say nearly every villain reformed, maybe most villains - e.g. Garlic Junior, Cell, Kid Buu, Freeza, that villain from GT, the giant namek from one of the movies, all stuck to their roots.

Originally Posted by Suiko Eiji

If we were to argue a specific philosophy, I would say that this shows that not everyone who does bad things is truly and irreversibly evil. However, also surrounding these villains were people who were truly and irreversibly evil: Tsuru-sennin and Tao Pai Pai, Piccolo Daimaou, Freeza, and Cell. Villains such as these, I don't think, play-out to a higher philosophy but are more the typical foes necessary for a series like Dragonball to succeed. Again, an allegorical throw-back to ancient hero-epics.

In which case, the philosophical canvas would be that there are some people who will reform, and others who you just have to beat the organs out of to get them to change. This isn't deep stuff, I agree, but IMO, would be a topic related to philosophy - e.g. ethics - can people be inherently evil or do we all have some capacity to change?

Originally Posted by Suiko Eiji

While I agree with Vegeta having internal and external conflicts, which demonstrate his changing role from villain to hero (more so than others such as Tenshinhan or Piccolo), to claim Gokuu's enjoyment from fighting, or challenges, would be to claim that violence is inherently wrong which is something I cannot agree to.

Re. Goku enjoying fighting: I was thinking more of the Buu story when he seemed to be relishing fighting with Vegeta. But I guess my initial formulation was incorrect. I agree that violence is not inherently wrong - it's how you use it, and I think DB shows through Vegeta and Goku how violence can underpin both "good" and "evil". Again, philosophy, however shallow!

Originally Posted by Suiko Eiji

Again, I'll argue allegory. Sun Wu Kong also turned into a berserk monkey, IIRC.

The question is why did the creators of ancient epic stories use a monkey as a hero? I know that some ancient cultures like to superimpose animal features onto heroes, because they revere certain aspects, such as the natural strength of a lion or crocodile. Hence, I would hazard a guess that monkeys were used in a similar way, and if so, then the animal aspects would represent something like intelligence, strength, dexterity etc. If this is the case, then being able to turn into a giant ape in DB could represent the release of strength, as well as the literal visual effect intended to please the target audience.

Originally Posted by Suiko Eiji

Shen Ron is only one of the mystical divinities in the Dragonworld. He shares space with Kami-sama, Karin-sama, Kai-ou-sama, the other Kai-ou from other worlds and hierarchies, and Enma Daimaou - only to name a few. Each of these divinities, despite their power, also have limitations to said power, which might cater more to eastern religions' philosophical roots in balance.

Yes, I agree that monotheism is not really prevalent in DB, for the reasons you mention. Also, I think GT had an "evil" Shen-Ron, so there are "evil" deities too in DB. Hinduism seems to have an abundance of gods, as did the ancient Greeks and Romans. I think gathering the DB balls could be seen as restoring some sort of balance to the world - e.g. when a miracle occurs which aids Goku and the good guys, this counter-balances the evil that has been occurring (then the balls disperse again such that miracles don't happen too often and upset the balance, and only occur in a crisis, where the motivation to collect the balls again is there). Actually, I like this interpretation. However, I don't think the parallels to eastern religions run any deeper.

Originally Posted by Suiko Eiji

Not insinuating you are; but perhaps just motivating discussion. I am merely retorting from that angle as well. The OP was obviously very vague in his question.

Perhaps what I was trying to show was that DB is not a total no-brainer.

[CrossboneGundam]

No.

Unless you consider "the louder and longer you scream, the more powerful you'll become" to be a realistic idea.

[Tidusauron12]

The thing is, what's of the ideas that come with Dragon Ball Z seem to coincide with these philosophies you keep mentioning. It seems to me that the creators of DZ and DBGT could've have created the show whil enot thinking of philosophy at all. Naturally in a show as long as the Dragon Ball series (along with the themes it works off of) you can find philosophy within it, but I do not think these philosophies were intentionally put in or thought of when the creators decided on things. As for DB itself, Toriyama may have thought of philosophy... but I'm not so sure about Z or GT.

[Animematt55]

Originally Posted by CrossboneGundam

No.

Unless you consider "the louder and longer you scream, the more powerful you'll become" to be a realistic idea.

QFE!
I remember entire episodes (or more) just watching guys power up. And the time lines seems like they take days to do so.

[JFaulkner]

Originally Posted by CrossboneGundam

No.

Unless you consider "the louder and longer you scream, the more powerful you'll become" to be a realistic idea.

Bullet-proof argument here - sure to get the support of the most sagacious philosophers, like er, Animematt55.

Originally Posted by Tidusauron12

It seems to me that the creators of DZ and DBGT could've have created the show whil enot thinking of philosophy at all.

What, so Akira Toriyama made Goku a merciful good guy just by chance or by random thoughts? Hardly likely. The creators made some bad guys reform, such as Vegeta, by random? Again, hardly likely. Saiyans could turn into apes, but other animals could easily have been chosen, such as a goldfish or a parrot?

I've already pointed out that there are links to philosophy, and that probably most of these are shallow. This isn't rocket science everyone. Why bother denying there are at least superficial links? This doesn't mean that DB doesn't drag on forever with characters powering up for 5 episodes in a row, it just means there are at least some superficial links to philosophy. End of story.

[Soluzar]

Originally Posted by JFaulkner

Saiyans could turn into apes, but other animals could easily have been chosen, such as a goldfish or a parrot?

You forget, sir, that Dragon Ball draws upon the Chinese legend of the Monkey King.

This doesn't mean that DB doesn't drag on forever with characters powering up for 5 episodes in a row, it just means there are at least some superficial links to philosophy. End of story.

Maybe, but they are things that you brought to the table, rather than things Dragon Ball brought to the table. You can choose to see Dragon Ball through a philosophical lens, but that is to take a distorted view of it.

[JFaulkner]

Originally Posted by Soluzar

You forget, sir, that Dragon Ball draws upon the Chinese legend of the Monkey King.

And why exactly did the Chinese legend use a monkey as opposed to a goldfish or a parrot? I'm saying there is some reason behind it, as opposed to it being just random. So you're saying that the creators of DB chose to base an anime about a strong, tough, benevolent hero on a Chinese legend just because it was a Chinese legend, and not because there were other similarities between the Monkey King in the Chinese legend and Goku - e.g. strength or agility, which in some respects is symbolized by the monkey aspect?

Originally Posted by Soluzar

Maybe, but they are things that you brought to the table, rather than things Dragon Ball brought to the table. You can choose to see Dragon Ball through a philosophical lens, but that is to take a distorted view of it.

I don't think so. If you read my post properly, I mentioned the dichotomy between good and evil, which is staring you in the face when you see DB, and deliberately put in by the creators. This is not a distorted view, it is a fundamental theme and you are adopting a distorted view by denying the existence of this fact.

[Sixteen]

philosophy and Dragonball/Z/GT isn't exactly something that goes together. The anime while fun is not deep. It has moments where characters do develop and become deeper. There are a couple of places that you could say there is a little reference to philosophy. Such as The life of one is not as important as the lives of many. This is shown several times through the anime, Goku, Vegeta, Android 16 each have had a part in the anime where they had attempted to either stop the advancing death of the world (they where on) and the death of all of the people at the cost of their own lives. Once with Goku it was fighting Frieza and he had everyone wished to planet Earth. Naturally it seemed that he died in that battle. With Vegeta it was with Majin Buu and he gave his life to stop the destruction of earth or at least slow it down. Android 16 with Cell when he attempted to self destruct and take Cell with him. Thus saving the planet and and lives of everyone there.

That is one philosophy that does seem to stand out.

[Hara!]

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