What is it with... anime and character archetypes?

[SeannyB]

It's been a while since I've Asked John, and I ended up writing a short essay with a thesis question -- bear with me here...
...

Archetypical characters have always been in anime and, well, all fiction since the beginning of time. But lately I want to say that there's been a growing number of anime that self-consciously features and almost celebrates archetype characters.

You have shows like Shakugan no Shana and Zero no Tsukaima that deliberately cater to the apparent fanbase of "tsundere" characters. While the "tsundere" archetype is hardly anything new (Ranma 1/2, Star Wars' Leia, etc.) I feel like this is the first time we're seeing tons of anime where the driving point of the series is to celebrate a certain character archetype. I guess this is also comparable to the whole moé thing that got real big half a decade back, and all the other fad archetypes in between (lolita, catgirl, gothic lolita, maid, etc.)

More interesting are the new generation shows like Suzumiya Haruhi and Kanon (2006) (yep, singling out the Kyoto Animation studio here) that simultaneously indulges in and parodies archetypes -- and not just character personality types, but also their commonly associated storylines. You've seen Haruhi so I hope you've noticed a lot of the simultaneous parody and indulgence it. It doesn't seem like you're bothering with Kanon, and I can't blame you really... but most of the humor in that show revolves around our sarcastic (tsukkomi) protagonist poking fun at the absurdity of the female visual novel archetypes that inhabit the strange town he's visiting. He not only makes fun of their shameful catch-phrases ("uguu!", "auuu!" and so on), but also their absurd backstories, rituals, habits, personality traits, and their completely illogical self-justifications for them. ... yet at the same time the story and drama in the show is nothing more than a familiar exercise in those archetypes and cliches. I JUST DON'T GET IT.

WHAT IS UP with Japan and its deliberate, fully self-conscious rabid celebration of character archetypes? What is the appeal of that? Does its current prevalence have something to do with the cross-pollination of porn games and anime? Or is it some strange Japanese thing that my gaijin brain can't wrap itself around?

Or am I looking too deeply into something that's fundimentally simple?

[John]

I'll be back with an answer when I have more time. I have a response, but this one will take a bit of time to compose.

[SeannyB]

Hey, thanks for the response. Makes me wonder if the otakus' intense pursuit of "the same" stems from Japanese cultural/societal aspects or if it's just an inevitable result of hyper-consumerism (or a mix of both but to what degree?)... but I imagine that's a research paper -sized question :p

Japan is weird.

[Yukito Kunisaki]

I just easily see Kanon trying to build up your comedy meter, and then shatters your feelings in certain parts of the anime. Yuuichi is a jerk, no doubt, but the reason for it is because...well...it helps those girls become adorable. Without him, those girls wouldn't be saying "Uguu" and "Au" more than half the time because he annoys them, and that's their response to him.

The creator is the same person from the series "Air" so he has a background of heart shattering drama anime, as well as the cute characters, and this is just his way of breaking the fans heart. I myself, honestly adore it. He makes you feel as is the anime will be nice and cutesy, but then turns it around completely and unexpectedly, and creates a great way to hit ones heart.

These Cliches are just to build up your love of the characters before he does anything to break your emotions down. That is how I see it. That is how it was with Air, though Air was not as funny as Kanon, it gave you more of a relaxed feeling instead, then built up from there. At least this is how I see it. As for other anime with these cliches, I cannot help you there, but Kanon has it's reasons.

[Soluzar]

I know what you're saying, Seanny. I've really enjoyed the new Gaiking: Legend of Daiku Maryu, but it sometimes seems like a parody of super robot anime. Except that there are no jokes. And it's not really a parody.

What I mean is that the characters (especially the main character) are so utterly archetypal that it is disconcerting. I really have enjoyed this anime, but I do believe it's an example of glorifying and celebrating the character archetypes that are native to the super robot genre.

[Leader Desslock]

For anyone who might be tempted to read John's reply and think, "Whoa, the japanese are weird, always wanting more of the same...", I'll point out that the western (and particularly American) obsession with artistic originality is not a universal human aesthetic. Even in the west, that mindset doesn't extend back very far. If you go back into even the middle ages, the emphasis is not on producting wholly original works. Particularly in literature, original works were considered to be less clever than derivative works.

To modern minds, that sounds backwards. it might help to think of it this way: anyone can just make something up, but it takes a truly keen mind to take a well-worn story and tell it in a manner that is fresh, pertinent to the audience and entertaining. Worded another way, it's the mark of a good storyteller to be able to tell a familiar story better than the way you first heard it.

That may be part of the consumer aesthetic in Japan; it might not be. I really don't know for sure. All I do know is that the idea of "original = better" is not a universal human aesthetic, so it's natural to find cultures that don't place a high premium on original creative content.

Of course, I could just as easily point out that the vast, vast majority of popular entertainment in the US is just as repetetive as anything people see come out of Japan. Music, pop fiction, movies, TV shows... you name it, 98% of entertainment is just a repackaging of what came before it. We might not feel that way, but that's because we're familiar enough with our entertainment medium to recognize and value that 2%. Perhaps people looking into Japanese pop culture from outside don't recognize the Japanese equivalent to that 2%, so everything looks the same?

I dunno. I'm just tossing out ideas for people to mull or ignore, as they see fit.

[SeannyB]

Of course, I could just as easily point out that the vast, vast majority of popular entertainment in the US is just as repetetive as anything people see come out of Japan.

I saw that danger in posing my original question. For every deliberately derivitive anime like Kanon and Zero no Tsukaima that premieres in Japan, there's a yet another James Bond flick or a medical / detective / law drama premiering in US theaters or airing on US television, or a half-parody equivalent like how Shaun of the Dead is to zombie flicks. Archetypes and genres are a part of pop all over the world. I knew that.

I did not want to say that Americans crave originality while the Japanese crave derivation as that's an absurd over-generalization, but I think it's a good insight from John to point out that American anime fans relative to Japanese fans put slightly more emphasis on new/original works (probably because anime to western fans is an offbeat/foreign thing, as opposed to a native commercial industry that caters specifically to their tastes).

But I think there's a good difference between American Medical Drama #5963 and Zero no Tsukaima. The medical drama genre (like ALL genres) provide a common framework for storytelling. However Zero is a celebration of a very, very specific character type, that caters to a sexually charged rabid fanbase of exactly that character type. It's the intensity and specificity that I feel sets the Japanese fanbase apart from the common pop-art / consumer relationships you see all over the world. You can't possibly compare the kingdoms of Tsundere and Moé to western archetypes like 1980's action heroes or super spies.

edit -- also what sets Kanon 2006 and Shawn of the Dead apart is that Shawn appeals to a mass general audience as a humorous zombie flick, whereas Kanon would only appeal to anime fans familiar with insular visual novel stories and characters. Try to watch Kanon without that context, I'm sure you'll just be like "Why are all these girls retarded? Why is the protagonist making fun of them? What the hell kind of show is this? If it's a parody of something I sure don't get it."

[Baka Deshi]

"There's nothing new under the sun."

[Caster13]

ok, what desslock just said pretty much summed up the thread.

[Soluzar]

Originally Posted by Leader Desslock

Anyone can just make something up, but it takes a truly keen mind to take a well-worn story and tell it in a manner that is fresh, pertinent to the audience and entertaining. Worded another way, it's the mark of a good storyteller to be able to tell a familiar story better than the way you first heard it.

For what it's worth, I agree entirely with this mindset. Very few of the anime I like best have anything even remotely approaching an original idea. Some are based on ancient legends, some are an amalgamation of ideas from other works in years gone by. What makes them good is the richness of the story that is woven around that basic framework.

For example, Gaiking is not only a remake of an earlier series, but it is also highly derivative of other super robot anime. It was when it was first made, and it's even more so now. It's still a great fun series to watch.

[Caster13]

or not.....

[Soluzar]

Originally Posted by Kenpachi

or not.....

You could at least try explaining what you mean. If you're saying you didn't enjoy Gaiking, then I'd advise you that it gets a lot better towards the end of the series. It does have a bit of a quality lapse in the middle.

Either way, since I was addressing my tastes and not yours, it doesn't matter.

[Caster13]

no, my first post didnt go through fast enough, and there were a few posts in the time i didnt submit the reply, so since i didnt put the post in at the right time, my post didnt take the right effect in the conversation, so i said "or not.....". that clear it up?

[Soluzar]

Originally Posted by Kenpachi

no, my first post didnt go through fast enough, and there were a few posts in the time i didnt submit the reply, so since i didnt put the post in at the right time, my post didnt take the right effect in the conversation, so i said "or not.....". that clear it up?

Yes it does. Sorry about that. Because it was more or less instantly after my post, I thought it must be addressed to my comments about Gaiking being fun to watch.

[Leader Desslock]

Originally Posted by SeannyB

I saw that danger in posing my original question.

Yeah, so did I, which is why I idn't want to answer it directly. I think you and I are more or less on the same page, but I wanted to address a specific reaction to John's article that I thought would be fairly common among some folks.

Originally Posted by SeannyB

But I think there's a good difference between American Medical Drama #5963 and Zero no Tsukaima.

The genre that most makes my head hurt nowadays is the Cop Drama. There is, to my mind, only a negligible difference between CSI:Wherever, Cold Case, NCIS, 24, Law And Order, SVU and all those bloody crime dramas that have the same damned stories over and over and over again. And it doesn't help that each of those shows has variants. How many CSIs are there now? Gah!

Those shows DO keep reusing the same sterotypical characters: The cop on the edge of a breakdown, the cop that does it by the book, the streetwise cop, the quirky genius cop... etc. There's no difference between them. You can swap 'em back and forth between the shows and it wouldn't change a thing. Kiefer Sutherland's a good actor, but all I can do is laugh at his delivery when he plays Horatio. He sounds like... a narration character, like The Hitchhiker, or The Red Shoes Guy, or Rod Serling. It's so awful.

Then there's the "quirky detective show". That's a rejuvenation of the previous "iconic detective show" sterotype we used to have with Colombo and others back in the 70's. Now, the "quirky detective" has to have a chronic and otherwise debilitating disorder that somehow enables him to solve cases. Peter Falk's absent-minded genius wasn't enough; now we have to have Monk's OC tendencies, that borderline autistic guy from the SVU, a serial killer in another show, Dr. House can't deal with humans and has a substance abuse problem, some people see the future, or ghosts, or sometimes future ghosts...etc.

If I were to go into comedies... lord. There might be eight characters in the entire genre, these days. Maybe. And they're spouting the same lines. Sitcoms have devolved into conveniently arranged strings of one-liners. There's only so much humor to be found in yet another zinger.

I'm not saying that as an attempt to say "US = Bad, Japan = Good"; I'm merely pointing out how few genuinely original programs there are in American pop entertainment, when you really look for it. I still think that's a secondary point, however. My real point was that originality's just a viewing preference like any other. It's not any better or worse, just different.