American Justice = epic fail

[Lacan]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0911/p02s09-usju.html

We are more interested in arresting random people even if they are innocent, then trying to protect the peace and actually stopping the real crime and criminals.

And Florida is now on my list of places to never go to, along with Texas, North Korea, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

And yes I went to Florida back in 2003 in Disney World, but never again.

[Suiko Eiji]

^You realize that the evidence that exonerated him was in its infancy as far as the rules of evidence are concerned when he was convicted, right?

[Lacan]

^You realize that the evidence that exonerated him was in its infancy as far as the rules of evidence are concerned when he was convicted, right?

Yes I know, but they said he was forced into false confessions, etc. Its just the tactics that used to make even a innocent person to convict themselves. Instead of trying to take their time and search.

Edit: Btw, there are alot of news websites that has this news. Maybe more light can be shed on it. But I hear stories like this all the time, for example a innocent man in Texas got executed.

[throughhim413]

Yeah, the American justice system is terrible. Thank goodness nobody has ever been falsely imprisoned elsewhere in the world. /sarcasm

Regardless, it's a shame it happened and a good thing that he was finally cleared.

[Fobb]

Hey, there's nothing with Pakistan :(

[Lacan]

Hey, there's nothing with Pakistan :(

Huh? I'm confused.

[Leader Desslock]

I would consider this as evidence that the system works.

Ultimately, he was convicted by a preponderance of the evidence by a jury of his peers. That means that twelve people (and one judge) felt that the evidence supported his conviction beyond a reasonable doubt.

He wasn't convicted by an aberrant system, nor by some vast conspiracy to strip individuals of their civil rights; he was convicted by individuals reviewing the case against him.

Is that system perfect? Of course not. Are the police officers and the legal staff for the prosecution perfect? Of course not. That's why our legal system supports the right to appeal sentences, even many years after the fact. Which he did, and in light of new evidence, he was acquitted.

In short - the system worked just like it's designed to work.

[f2akid]

Hey, there's nothing with Pakistan :(

I agree. It's in good hands now. The majority of the country probably wouldn't welcome him anyway, same goes for Afghanistan (in which he would get kidnapped).

[Lacan]

I agree. It's in good hands now. The majority of the country probably wouldn't welcome him anyway, same goes for Afghanistan (in which he would get kidnapped).

The reason is because of all the terrorist attacks in those countries. Once that clears up, those two countries will improve when the people in those countries can finally have peace. North Korea is too Big Brotherly, and Texas is too harsh in their justice system, and Florida seems so too.

Edit: I wish I can word things better, and better explain my meaning. Sorry if I offended people who lived there. It always seems that I am doomed to offend everyone by accident.

[master terrence]

wtf, does no one else find it disturbing that he was mentally retarded... don't you think their method of investigating is a little harsh for a 15 year old.

what qualifications do these cops typically have anyways? That's the forth one in Broward county, it's like they are arresting people based on educated guessing.

anyways here's a similar story from the same exact place:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/sfl-false-arrest-lawsuit-090909,0,2076635.story
wait till you read the physical description of the person, get ready to laugh.


I think there's a quality-quantity complex with the police force. At the expense of hiring one smart person, they hired two stupid people. :/

[taily]

twelve people (and one judge)

Yeah, we still haven't worked out exactly which category to put them under...

[Gray]

Everybody thinks they know how the judicial system should work. I would type up a lenghy article describing my views on this issue, however Dessklock already said what I wanted to say. He wasn't convicted by an aberrant system, nor by some vast conspiracy to strip individuals of their civil rights; he was convicted by individuals reviewing the case against him.

Tragic? Yes. We can only be grateful that we live in this day and age where DNA testing is far more accurate and widespread in clearing/convicting individuals.

[waltsoph3]

In short - the system worked just like it's designed to work.

Uhm..I think of it more like this...

The system worked just like it's designed to work. But only if people in the system are not corrupted.

@everyone

Don't get me wrong it works..but then when you watch a show like Dominick Dunne's Power, Privilege and Justice it would change your tune real fast.

All it takes is just messing with the wrong person and they don't go by the system..they get around the system. So before any of you consider that the system works 100%...watch some Dunne and also take the line Denzel Washington said in training day:

"Its not what you know Jake. Its what you can prove."


On another side note that I don't like from this story BESIDES THE CORRUPTION...is that some people in the legal system don't want to use forensic DNA to help solve a case. To me Forensic evidence is absolutely needed to help settle a court case other wise you go by he said she/he said and you know how that sometimes ends. :(

Again..the system does work..but only as functional as the people that run it and are indeed uncorrupted..psh..yeah good luck on that.

However there is one bright light...sooner or later at times the corrupt gets whats coming to em and justice in the system does get served.

Still its not 100% and the flaws in the system can either help/harm a person's future. Always try to consider that.

(fyi for any Dominick Dunne fans he recently passed.:(
God bless his soul and may he RIP )

[Leader Desslock]

^ Walt, it amazes me how you can't be bothered to verify a blog article, look up a legal definition or research case law - but you can quote a movie verbatim and remember who starred in what films.

Perhaps if you spent more time pursuing actual information rather than basing your opinions on popular entertainment, you'd have more success advocating these 'causes' of yours.

There was enough evidence to convince a jury, so even though this guy's been acquitted, it doesn't mean he wasn't involved in some way - there just wasn't enough evidence to convict, in retrospect. So before we heap all the corruption on the system, let's make sure we reserve some for the defendant as well, just in case. I have a feeling he's not Snow White.

[goddessofanime]

And I thought I was the only one who watched tru tv...:)

Unfortunely these things tend to happen once in awhile. There was a similar case a few years back where a man was convicted of raping and killing a woman back in 81 and was falsely accused of it. He eventually was released in 2003 or 04.

[old hat]

No system of justice is perfect because they are made and administered by humans.

Welcome to the real world.

[Caster13]

It is my firm belief that people selected for jury duty should go through a very thorough psychological evaluation so that they'll be declared mentally competent to participate in a jury. That'll help the justice system a lot.

[Mikosage]

take the line Denzel Washington said in training day:

"Its not what you know Jake. Its what you can prove."




Please tell me I misread that and you are NOT basing your information on something Denzel Washington said in a scripted dialogue.

[animeotaku99]

Lacan you better add ENgland, Califormnia, Illinois to that List.
But WHY TEXAS?!

[Mikosage]

Lacan you better add ENgland, Califormnia, Illinois to that List.
But WHY TEXAS?!

Don't forget Nebraska. That place should be destroyed.

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll185/Mikosage/motivatorc1d22487bcfbf5f3cd0e17195c.jpg

[Vaikyuko]

I find it amusing how the article spends so much time more or less saying "woe is me", and only has one line about this audio tape...as Desslock said, I doubt this guy is Snow White, and the article even implies it.

Let me pull a quote, to help emphasize what I mean.

"The lawyer said the state failed to turn over to defense lawyers an audio tape of a phone conversation between a police detective in the Jankowski case and a man who said he had killed Jankowski with Caravella."

Hmmm...I wonder what the bolded part could mean. Sure, you have to take things with a grain of salt, but that seems pretty cut and dry. Even if the guy didn't do it himself, he apparently was said to be by someone who had no real gain by saying so (he was confessing to a murder, after all), and the evidence shown to the jury was enough to convict him even without this tape.

[Bernard_Monsha]

wtf, does no one else find it disturbing that he was mentally retarded.


That is a trick being used with a POS named Elroy Chester (http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57523) who broke into my parents house found them away on a trip and instead broke into my 88 year old neighbors house and killed her in front of her invalid husband. He had previously killed 3 other people and went on to rape 2 young girls and kill their uncle who came to check on them.

He has an IQ of 69 yet had the presence of mind to stalk his victims, shave his body so he would leave little or no traceable evidence, and cut the phone lines from the outside of the house so his victims could not call out. My parents phone line was cut by him. He is now appealing on grounds of mental retardation that he may not be executed and should instead be institutionalized. and it will come to the Supreme court.

In short NO.

[Shiroiyuki]

^Holy ****. If that's true Bernard, I'm really sorry that you had to go through that.

[Ridley-X4]

Why don't they just kill this Elroy guy? I've always been creeped out by the mentally disabled anyway.

[Mikosage]

I've always been creeped out by the mentally disabled anyway.

I agree completely, wholeheartedly, and to the fullest of my capabilities. I applaud you my friend, for bringing a ray of truth into this darkness we so snivelingly call tolerance. Well done. ^_^

(No I'm not being sarcastic. I'm dead ****ing serious.)

[Old Ape Face]

Yeah, the American justice system is terrible. Thank goodness nobody has ever been falsely imprisoned elsewhere in the world. /sarcasm

Regardless, it's a shame it happened and a good thing that he was finally cleared.

Kangaroo Courts are not an Australian concept? O.O

[taily]

Why don't they just kill this Elroy guy? I've always been creeped out by the mentally disabled anyway.

Yet another reason Ridley has no mirrors in his house.

[Neko]

Lacan you better add ENgland, Califormnia, Illinois to that List.
But WHY TEXAS?!

What's wrong with Illinois? :(

If you stay away from Chicago, there's nothing there to dislike. In fact, there's nothing there at all. :O

[Old Ape Face]

Lacan you need to be arrested for just being yourself, and then you should talk about the justice system in other states.

I guarantee it's no different in your state.

you might as well move to Canada.

[taily]

Lacan you need to be arrested for just being yourself

Clever....¬_¬

[Lacan]

Lacan you need to be arrested for just being yourself, and then you should talk about the justice system in other states.

I guarantee it's no different in your state.

you might as well move to Canada.

Hmm, that got my thinking.

[animeotaku99]

What's wrong with Illinois? :(

If you stay away from Chicago, there's nothing there to dislike. In fact, there's nothing there at all. :O

Illinois is a terrible communist state that is over run by criminals NOTHING GOOD has come out of Illinois. The state government works hard to deny its law abidding citizens the 2nd Amendment while they get shot in the streets by drugged up criminals and Muslim women are beheaded and raped.

[Neko]

Hmm, I don't know anything about that. I guess Chicago is the only really important part of the state, and I'm from nowhere near there. I guess we haven't had much luck with governors lately. :D Well, I don't even live in Illinois anymore anyway, so I guess it doesn't really matter to me now.

[Old Ape Face]

Chicago is the where the HQ for Walgreens is, how could that be bad.

and yet a company in Chicago, owns Connecticut's Hartford Current, a weird corporation mess they made with that, and it's all liberal too.

[Tidusauron12]

I think that people like Lacan don't know **** about how the Judicial system works. I think you need to take a basic US Government course before you start badmouthing our Judicial system.

It's embarrassing to see people spout ignorance like this.

[goddessofanime]

Hmm, that got my thinking.

Canadians are full of terrorists!

[Old Ape Face]

Canadians have more guns but less violence? (I swear i didn't think of that one out of the blue, some dude at work tolled me that I swear)

[Lacan]

I'm not thinking about moving to Canada, what I meant is that Yukimura-Sanada has a point. I just hope someday in the future that truth, justice and the american way prevails over corruption, Zod and Lex.

Edit: But the whole world has corruption, because we are human, until of course this planet is run by robots.

[Leader Desslock]

Illinois is a terrible communist state that is over run by criminals NOTHING GOOD has come out of Illinois.
Abraham... Lincoln... ?

Ring a bell at all? You know, the guy who invented the penny? His dad invented logs?

No?

Schoolhouse Rock isn't on the air anymore, is it? It should be.

Edit: But the whole world has corruption, because we are human, until of course this planet is run by robots.
I'll take moral corruption over data corruption any day. At least moral corruption is predictable and understandable.

[goddessofanime]

I'm not thinking about moving to Canada, what I meant is that Yukimura-Sanada has a point. I just hope someday in the future that truth, justice and the american way prevails over corruption, Zod and Lex.

Edit: But the whole world has corruption, because we are human, until of course this planet is run by robots.

We're humans. We suck.

[waltsoph3]

And I thought I was the only one who watched tru tv...:)


You do!? :D ....cool!

Please tell me I misread that and you are NOT basing your information on something Denzel Washington said in a scripted dialogue.

HA HA thats whats I'm talking about! My Mikosage! Are you'll seeing this!
(in case some of you don't get this..its actualy a joke taking a line from training day except replacing the person )

No way i'm not basing my information from that movie...
I just personally consider evidence to be very important in settling a case.

So when I went by the line: "Its no what you know Jake. Its what you can prove." I'm just saying I belive evidence is more solid. I'm presuming juries and judges are more interested in the facts such as evidence for example. To me evidence helps win cases..well sometimes. :/

(trust me watch Dunne sometime if you can(btw thats real life stuff not made up) I once saw a case where this oil millionaire got busted straight up with the smoking gun evidence and STILL got away with murder. Cases like this clearly showing that corruption tramples the legal system at times )

Just take this story for example..yeah the system works but still it took 20+ years to free this person when it proved he wasn't there from a DNA test.
If that test was provided at the case..bam trail is over next case.
So I hope that clears up anything.

[Leader Desslock]

Just take this story for example..yeah the system works but still it took 20+ years to free this person when it proved he wasn't there from a DNA test.
If that test was provided at the case..bam trail is over next case.
For those people who evidently missed the excellent point made in the second post in this thread...

^You realize that the evidence that exonerated him was in its infancy as far as the rules of evidence are concerned when he was convicted, right?
I mean, sure a nuclear powered vessel would've been a great asset during WWII, but since nuclear power was still in it's infancy during WWII, there's not a lot of point in saying, "Whoa, if we'd have had a nuclear carrier in WWII, then... bam! War over!"

Unless you're watching The Final Countdown, which is an excellent movie.

But that's all it is. A movie. Best to keep such things separate from real discussions, though.

[Ridley-X4]

Yet another reason Ridley has no mirrors in his house.

Look, I just am a little uncomfortable with someone who doesn't act normal. Especially since natural selection wouldn't really favor these kinds of people; they only are able to live because other people help them, which in turn are only able to do so because we're humans and are smarter and stuff.

Illinois is a terrible communist state that is over run by criminals NOTHING GOOD has come out of Illinois. The state government works hard to deny its law abidding citizens the 2nd Amendment while they get shot in the streets by drugged up criminals and Muslim women are beheaded and raped.

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/9665/1249567762814.jpg

[Leader Desslock]

Look, I just am a little uncomfortable with someone who doesn't act normal.
Out of sheer curiosity, are you similarly uncomfortable around foreigners, since they don't share the cultural and behavioral norms with which you're familiar?

If not, why not?

[Ridley-X4]

No, because they are still average humans; they just have a culture. They are still as intelligent and adaptable as anyone else. I don't know any other way to say this, but the mentally disabled are in way, defective. Like, a Japanese or a French or an Afghani person can still regularly interact with others with greetings, care for offspring, etc. while a mentally disabled person would die quickly without being dependent on another person.

I've been to Spain. Twice. And I loved going there both times. I also enjoy Japanese culture a bit, but not to the point of being a weaboo. Ergo, as much as I like Spanish and my own American culture.

[taily]

Look, I just am a little uncomfortable with someone who doesn't act normal.

Ok so you want to kill them.

You are completely deplorable.

[Mikosage]

I don't think he's deplorable. I had a retarded kid come up and hug me randomly in the supermarket once. I nearly peed myself. O.o They freak me out, man.

[Lacan]

I don't think he's deplorable. I had a retarded kid come up and hug me randomly in the supermarket once. I nearly peed myself. O.o They freak me out, man.

Like that 18 year old in Texas who had a IQ of 47 who is now spending 100 years in prison, because of something he did with a 10 year old.

I just had the brought that up, because this quote reminded me of a news story that I heard months back. This is why the south scares me. Its funny how a 50 year old non retarded pedophile who is a repeat offender can get out very quickly, while a mentally handicap retarded kid has to spend 100 years in prison. Thats why I get angry at the justice system.

[taily]

I don't think he's deplorable. I had a retarded kid come up and hug me randomly in the supermarket once. I nearly peed myself. O.o They freak me out, man.

Oh no someone hugged you.


kill them!!!!!1!

[Mikosage]

Oh no someone hugged you.


kill them!!!!!1!

Preciscely! Affection burns my evil!

[Ridley-X4]

Ok so you want to kill them.

You are completely deplorable.

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/6408/1249687237753.jpg

LOL UR A WHITE KNIGHT

♪ I killed this theaaaad~!!!! I killed this threaaaad~!!! And people are getting maaaad~!!! ♪

[Buzron]

So is this the thread where I complain about how much I hate America?

^You realize that the evidence that exonerated him was in its infancy as far as the rules of evidence are concerned when he was convicted, right?

OP, this

[Ridley-X4]

So is this the thread where I complain about how much I hate America?

Why yes it is!! GAWD BLEZ 'MERICA!!!!

[Trefellin]

Ridley is acting like an idiot but I'll admit, I wouldn't have any problem punching out a mentally disabled person who decided to lay a hand on me.

[Ridley-X4]

I've lost my mind for today.

[Trefellin]

Ridley is acting like an idiot but I'll admit, I wouldn't have any problem punching out a mentally disabled person who decided to lay a hand on me.

This comes across as way worse when it's written down than I thought it would... :unsure:

[Haro!]

Illinois is a terrible communist state that is over run by criminals NOTHING GOOD has come out of Illinois. The state government works hard to deny its law abidding citizens the 2nd Amendment while they get shot in the streets by drugged up criminals and Muslim women are beheaded and raped.

I wonder what must it be like to be completely irrational.

[Caster13]

I wonder what must it be like to be completely irrational.

Most people in general are irrational.

[Old Ape Face]

In before lock.

[Trefellin]

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m68/SchuylerY_2006/john-locke-from-lost.jpg

[Lacan]

Why does every thread that I create turns out to be a monster?

[Old Ape Face]

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m68/SchuylerY_2006/john-locke-from-lost.jpg

John Lock will save us.

[goddessofanime]

so is this the thread where i complain about how much i hate america?







america..

F**k yeah!

[Jack_Bauer]

Our justice system is not perfect and it never will be because our country is always changing. I've been in countries with unfair justice systems and Im thankful I live in the U.S.A

[Old Ape Face]

Our justice system is not perfect and it never will be because our country is always changing. I've been in countries with unfair justice systems and Im thankful I live in the U.S.A

this, (filla)

[Caster13]

Our justice system is not perfect and it never will be because our country is always changing. I've been in countries with unfair justice systems and Im thankful I live in the U.S.A

Spadesy had to bribe two police officers a crapload of money in Indonesia because they just wanted money from him and they were going to take him to jail if he didn't give it to them.

[Jack_Bauer]

Spadesy had to bribe two police officers a crapload of money in Indonesia because they just wanted money from him and they were going to take him to jail if he didn't give it to them.

Some of my friends were on vacation in my native country of the Philippines. Well one day they rented motorcycles and took a little ride thru the city. They ran a bunch of red light (which is common practice) but they got pulled over. Once the cops realized that they were foreigners, the cops said that if they gave him cash, he would let them go. So all my friends took all the cash they had in their persons and gave it to the cop.

[Caster13]

I'm crossing the Philippines and Southeast Asia off of places I would ever go to. Right next to the middle east.

[SapperSix]

I'm crossing the Philippines and Southeast Asia off of places I would ever go to. Right next to the middle east.

Don't be so rash to cross out places to visit. With these places you mentioned, you'd need common sense and good situational awareness do get by in third world countries. Pretty much just keep your head on a swivel.

[Jack_Bauer]

I'm crossing the Philippines and Southeast Asia off of places I would ever go to. Right next to the middle east.

Hahaha Thailand is not so bad. I spent four months there and I had a fantastic time. As long as you stay away from criminal acts, you'll be fine. They're pretty strict over there.

Yea, Im not fond of the Middle East either. Been there too many times, and not just Iraq either. Been to Kuwait, Saudi, Afghanistan, Jordan and Dubai... Dubai is probably the nicest place out of all of them. I dont want to sound arrogant but their justice system in the middle east is pretty backwards and desperately needs revision. But who am I to say this?

[Holy Knight]

Look, I just am a little uncomfortable with someone who doesn't act normal.

What do you mean "normal"? I don't think I've ever met anyone I'd call "normal". We're all weird in our own different ways, so whatever one person does doesn't mean you can assume anything about them.

People act normal because we judge each other on appearances and actions. So it shouldn't be entirely out of place to see someone comfortable enough with who they are that they act however they want, rather than how they think they should. Aren't you guilty of narrow-mindedness in this regard?

I do share a certain revulsion for the mentally disabled, but I have my reasons for that, and it has nothing to do with how they act.

On-topic: system is fair because it keeps evolving to better itself. Plenty of unfair stuff going on in the system, but that's what reform and bills are for.

[Old Ape Face]

Hahaha Thailand is not so bad. I spent four months there and I had a fantastic time. As long as you stay away from criminal acts, you'll be fine. They're pretty strict over there.

Yea, Im not fond of the Middle East either. Been there too many times, and not just Iraq either. Been to Kuwait, Saudi, Afghanistan, Jordan and Dubai... Dubai is probably the nicest place out of all of them. I dont want to sound arrogant but their justice system in the middle east is pretty backwards and desperately needs revision. But who am I to say this?

The only places I've been away from the United States is a short month long vacation touring parts of western Europe, didn't even spend enough time to witness the economy differences between the US and England. (the weirdest part being, feeling the linguistic differences of the British English accent spoken almost everywhere, to the distinct laid back American slang as soon as I stepped off the plane on my return home flight.)

However I have talked to many different people who live in parts of Western Europe via the internet, and I get mixed feelings about our government.

Some gave me that disgusted, Americans are evil crap, but others tell me that some of their relatives have moved to the United States, and never want to go back to Europe.

The bias is definitely just as mixed over there about our culture as it is over here.


I do share a certain revulsion for the mentally disabled, but I have my reasons for that, and it has nothing to do with how they act.

Here is an interesting point of information I've gather over the past half a year, I don't know if this is the same in other countries (probably Germany where our equipment is designed and manufactured) however, America has places that offer manual labor to people who are considered mentally or physically disabled, (my work facility is one example of these places) however there are still rules and guidelines that are no different than any other work place. We still require those who are disabled to meet a production rate, and we require that they are independently secured. (meaning they are capable of working under their own means of transportation.)

There is a down side to this however, we do have to remove some employees when they're causing trouble (happens quite often), so it feels more like I'm back in High School and the employees are being graded and punished like they would be in high school.

[Buzron]

Why does every thread that I create turns out to be a monster?

Because you post legitimate links accompanied by biased Ameri-bashing.

[Jack_Bauer]

Some gave me that disgusted, Americans are evil crap, but others tell me that some of their relatives have moved to the United States, and never want to go back to Europe.

The bias is definitely just as mixed over there about our culture as it is over here.

Out of topic

I had a similar experience the last time we toured Europe for training. When we actually had the time to go out for liberty call, we went to the pubs and the rave clubs and while some Europeans are friendly with us, there were also some who says how much they dislike our American ways and all we were is a failed colony. It's not like we'll try to change their minds, it is bias for the most part and while they're afraid to deny it our influence is all over the place and they secretly love it.. lol.

The Asians on the other hand thinks that the Western world is much better than what they have. The ones that I talked to at least. I was surprise on how many people in Asia can speak english. Even with the thick accents, they are actually very good at it. Makes me feel bad that there are so many languages out there that I never even bothered learning and yet I've visited these countries.

[Lacan]

Because you post legitimate links accompanied by biased Ameri-bashing.

I just want to help America, by pointing out the disturbing stuff of it, so my country can be improved. Having different ideas and complaining is very pro American. Though I doubt that the hire ups will ever read anything that I type.

Also I like complaining, it feels good. Having it bottled up inside me is stressful.

Anyway this thread should be locked.

[Leader Desslock]

Having different ideas and complaining is very pro American.
Having different ideas and working hard to implement them = Pro-American = Good

Having different ideas and complaining without doing anything constructive = Neo-American = Bad

If the people who complain would channel 10% of the amount of the energy they expend complaining into useful endeavors, we'd have this whole "infinite, renewable energy of harnessed fusion" thing licked by now.

[Bernard_Monsha]

Spadesy had to bribe two police officers a crapload of money in Indonesia because they just wanted money from him and they were going to take him to jail if he didn't give it to them.

He was a fool for not carrying soap in his sock like I told him to.

Don't be so rash to cross out places to visit. With these places you mentioned, you'd need common sense and good situational awareness do get by in third world countries. Pretty much just keep your head on a swivel.

This is Kenpachi we are talking about, Kenpachi! Were do you think all those tricked by katooy stories started?



Having different ideas and working hard to implement them = Pro-American = Good

Having different ideas and complaining without doing anything constructive = Neo-American = Bad

If the people who complain would channel 10% of the amount of the energy they expend complaining into useful endeavors, we'd have this whole "infinite, renewable energy of harnessed fusion" thing licked by now.

But *****ing makes the world go around.

[old hat]

Our system will never be perfect because there is no such thing as a perfect system. They only exist in the minds of utopian sci-fi authors and the sort of people who imagine they can 'engineer' a society like they do a mechanical device. At least the sci-fi authors generally know that what they are doing is writing fiction.

[Jack_Bauer]

Our system will never be perfect because there is no such thing as a perfect system. They only exist in the minds of utopian sci-fi authors and the sort of people who imagine they can 'engineer' a society like they do a mechanical device. At least the sci-fi authors generally know that what they are doing is writing fiction.

Precisely.. And humans aren't perfect, therefore anything we create is deemed imperfect.

[Lacan]

Having different ideas and working hard to implement them = Pro-American = Good

Having different ideas and complaining without doing anything constructive = Neo-American = Bad

If the people who complain would channel 10% of the amount of the energy they expend complaining into useful endeavors, we'd have this whole "infinite, renewable energy of harnessed fusion" thing licked by now.

I hate to admit it, but your right. And I know that my complaining is a waste of time.

No one I should lessen my bias everytime a make a new thread or post in it.

Well I'm going to leave this thread, everyone can keep talking in it if they want or lock it.

[Haro!]

I'm crossing the Philippines and Southeast Asia off of places I would ever go to. Right next to the middle east.

A person's (that you don't even know) bad experience is good enough to turn you off to travel somewhere? You'll never go anywhere or do anything constructive if you look at things that way... (Disclaimer: This is coming from a guy that hates leaving 2 of New York's 5 boroughs.)

[Ridley-X4]

What do you mean "normal"? I don't think I've ever met anyone I'd call "normal". We're all weird in our own different ways, so whatever one person does doesn't mean you can assume anything about them.



The mentally disabled drool, they're unresponsive, and they can't do squat. They're weird.

[Old Ape Face]

The mentally disabled drool, they're unresponsive, and they can't do squat. They're weird.

tell that to the factory workers at Walgreens, and no that's not why Walgreens is making a fair daily balance in the stock market.

[Caster13]

The mentally disabled drool, they're unresponsive, and they can't do squat. They're weird.

You know what? I used to have a friend who was perfectly normal but got into a car accident and became one of the people who you're describing. He was a really good guy. Stop.

[taily]

Ridley your existence is sickening, please climb into a refridgerator and wait untill the human race has been wiped out before emerging.

Thank you.

[goddessofanime]

Why does every thread that I create turns out to be a monster?

Because you're insanely paranoid about everything?

Topic:

I don't hold anything against the mentally disabled, but unless you're truly insane and don't know whether the sky is blue and aliens come to you, murder is murder and you have to pay. Once you cross that line, that's it.

If one is innocent, all the police has to do is use DNA and the evidence will speak for itself.

[Foppish Dandy]

Because you're insanely paranoid about everything?



Isn't that the norm on this forum? GAH OBAMA IS TURNING MY KIDS COMMUNIST! GAH BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU! GAH FOREIGNERS! GAH COMMUNISTS!

Speaking of which, how did this thread end up about disabled people and foreigners? I fail to see how this has anything to do with the justice system.

[Ridley-X4]

Ridley your existence is sickening, please climb into a refridgerator and wait untill the human race has been wiped out before emerging.

Thank you.

Maybe if you.......retard your heroics. *puts on shades*


YEAAAAAAAAAAAH

[Shiroiyuki]

^I find it funny that the guy bashing mentally disabled folk could be their poster child.

By the way, this needs to end. The topic is about the justice system. If you can't keep on that topic, don't post.

[Caster13]

Alright, lets get back on topic then. I'll start. But let's not get into conspiracy theories like some people here would and have an intelligent discussion without any flaming and ignore those who do flame.

One thing that I can't stand about the justice system is the blatant abuse of the Bill of Rights. While I love the freedoms that I am given in this country, they should never, ever be used as a weapon. Somebody could have gotten nailed in a crime or multiple crimes, the cops got them, the evidence is sky high, there's a 500% chance of a conviction, this piece of crap is gonna fry....then a lawyer throws out one of the Amendments, and the judge is too afraid to speak his mind with the use of some good ol' fashion common sense for fear of media outrage and the scumbag is let go. :facepalm:

Then there's the out of control media. They hide behind Freedom of the Press when in reality a lot of what they do is absolute harassment. But we can't do anything about it. The sickening part is that if common sense gets thrown into the equation politicians will start making laws to loophole the Constitution itself entirely and every single one of our rights would no longer exist.

It sucks.:facepalm:

BTW again no flaming or conspiracy.
Isn't that the norm on this forum? GAH OBAMA IS TURNING MY KIDS COMMUNIST! GAH BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU! GAH FOREIGNERS! GAH COMMUNISTS!
Welcome to the internet. Enjoy your stay! ^_^
Maybe if you.......retard your heroics. *puts on shades*


YEAAAAAAAAAAAH
....Your lack of ability to know when to stop amazes me.

[Jack_Bauer]

Kenpachi,

Another example of that is when there were evidence that would have put OJ Simpson away for life (or even the Death Sentence) but unfortunately these evidence were seized without warrant. I mean WHAT THE HELL is that? We all know, without a shadow of a doubt that OJ did it but he got away clean cause of insufficient evidence. INSUFFICIENT?

[taily]

One thing that I can't stand about the justice system is the blatant abuse of the Bill of Rights. While I love the freedoms that I am given in this country, they should never, ever be used as a weapon. Somebody could have gotten nailed in a crime or multiple crimes, the cops got them, the evidence is sky high, there's a 500% chance of a conviction, this piece of crap is gonna fry....then a lawyer throws out one of the Amendments, and the judge is too afraid to speak his mind with the use of some good ol' fashion common sense for fear of media outrage and the scumbag is let go. :facepalm:


What I hate more than anything is people using the freedom of speech amendment abusively. That was made so people could express religous and political standpoints openly without being imprisoned or executed, not so that some sad puff sitting in his basement could continually harress someone over the internet "for lulz" *thinks about certain thread and poster of this forum*


Ps. ridley your fingers should be too numb to type feeble comebacks

[Leader Desslock]

^^ That "the criminal gets off scott free if the police fail to follow due process and the rules of evidence" thing is the system's safeguard against the police infringing upon the civil rights of citizens. It puts the police in the position of having to make sure all the Ts are crossed and the Is are dotted in the evidence trail before going to trial. If it's discovered that the police have crossed the line and infringed upon a defendant's civil right to due process, then the 'tainted' evidence is tossed out.

It's based upon the idea of people being truly innocent (in the eyes of society) until being found guilty by a jury of their peers and a preponderance of the evidence. And the protection of an innocent individual's civil rights has a rather high priority in our legal system. Heck, we even protect a guilty individual's civil rights in the Bill of Rights (Fifth Amendment, for those keeping track), so you know we're going to jump through hoops to protect the innocent.

Given that evidentiary civil rights abuses occasionally take place even WITH those penalties, one shudders to think how common such abuses would be if the police were not held to such a high standard.

[Jack_Bauer]

guilty[/I] individual's civil rights in the Bill of Rights (Fifth Amendment, for those keeping track), so you know we're going to jump through hoops to protect the innocent.

Given that evidentiary civil rights abuses occasionally take place even WITH those penalties, one shudders to think how common such abuses would be if the police were not held to such a high standard.

And that is the same basis that allows a lot of criminials roam free because they know the system all too well and have the money to hire lawyers who knows the system even more than the criminals. There should be a line drawn when these rights are nulled and voided in order for justice to truly prevail...Especially with repeat offenders.

Hell a stalker can do whatever they want with their victims but because theres a "due process" that cops have to go through and by the time they can do anything, it may be too late. And it has happened before.

[Trefellin]

There should be a line drawn when these rights are nulled and voided in order for justice to truly prevail...Especially with repeat offenders.


But then the rights of completely innocent people will become nulled and voided more often creating an environment where injustice prevails. Not only would more innocent people have their lives destroyed by being wrongly imprisoned, for possibly decades or the rest of their lives, the real criminals would walk free.

[Jack_Bauer]

Real criminals walk free everyday. From common criminals to white collar criminals. Our justice system has not been able to adapt as fast as the times have and its made a mockery out of it. Law enforcement should make sure that they cross their T's and dot their I's, that way they can make sure that the innocent remain innocent and imprison the criminals.


Look, I'm just stating the obvious. I still prefer our system over other countries' justice system.

[Leader Desslock]

Real criminals walk free everyday.
So do innocent people. I'd rather live under a justice system that holds the police to a higher standard and errs on the side of caution. I wouldn't relish the idea of a justice system that lets the police do whatever the heck they want, so long as they get the evidence to put the bad guys away.

Our justice system has not been able to adapt as fast as the times have and its made a mockery out of it.
You act as though 'criminals going free' is a recent phenomenon, and as though defense lawyers haven't always been keen on exploiting loopholes to get their clients (particularly the well-heeled ones) off the hook. That's been the norm for centuries, hence the importance of Precedent in our legal system.

[Jack_Bauer]

Well the precedent in our legal system needs revision because we still have a lot of criminals who are getting away with crimes. As you said, its not a recent phenomenom and its been going on for centuries. I happen to like our legal system, but it doesnt mean that its not flawed. I'd rather have justice served and give the families of the victims a peace of mind. Knowing that the justice system served its purpose.

I think in some ways, we do see things eye to eye.. I just have my own ideas when it comes to justice being served.

[Caster13]

So do innocent people. I'd rather live under a justice system that holds the police to a higher standard and errs on the side of caution. I wouldn't relish the idea of a justice system that lets the police do whatever the heck they want, so long as they get the evidence to put the bad guys away.


You act as though 'criminals going free' is a recent phenomenon, and as though defense lawyers haven't always been keen on exploiting loopholes to get their clients (particularly the well-heeled ones) off the hook. That's been the norm for centuries, hence the importance of Precedent in our legal system.

Desslock, you and me live in Arizona. You and me both know that many of our cops are pretty damn corrupt. I don't know so much about Lake Havasu though. All I know is that criminals are hung from the bridge out there.*

*wiki Lake Havasu for those that don't get this.

[Spadesy]

Spadesy had to bribe two police officers a crapload of money in Indonesia because they just wanted money from him and they were going to take him to jail if he didn't give it to them.

It was still totally worth going to the places where Chinese women hang out. Just don't stay at the Jakarta Marriot...that place has a habit of getting bombed every few years by American-hating Muslim extremists.

As for the Philippines, the place is pretty cool, just with a corrupt police system like any other third world nation. I'd recommend Manila if you don't have any moral hang-ups about one night stands. Avoid Angeles City, that place is just dirt-ay.

[Spadesy]

He was a fool for not carrying soap in his sock like I told him to.

The only use that would have is if I wrapped the soap up in the sock and whacked him in the face with it as he stuck his head close to the window. Hilarity would ensue, but I'd probably still be sitting in some dank Indonesian prison cell.

Friend of mine was hanging out with a bunch of expats who robbed a store there, got caught by the police and was put under house arrest for two weeks without anybody knowing where he was. By the time he was allowed to return to Okinawa, the Commanding General of US Forces in Japan himself demoted this guy. He re-up'ed his rank since then, but it took him a long, long time.

[CrossboneGundam]

Well the precedent in our legal system needs revision

You don't seem to understand the concept of precedent.

[old hat]

Kenpachi,

Another example of that is when there were evidence that would have put OJ Simpson away for life (or even the Death Sentence) but unfortunately these evidence were seized without warrant. I mean WHAT THE HELL is that? We all know, without a shadow of a doubt that OJ did it but he got away clean cause of insufficient evidence. INSUFFICIENT?

He walked because the LAPD and prosecution botched the case against him. LAPD was caught fabricating evidence which cast doubt on all the evidence. The LA DA botched the case from the beginning.

Alan Dershowitz has said that the defense didn't win the case so much as the prosecution lost it.

They had to prove he was guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt and they failed to do so. Verdict=not guilty

and you do not know beyond the shadow of a doubt or apparently even know what the word know means.

[Caster13]

You also have to consider that he had the "celebrity angle". And that angle has gotten many a guilty person off. OBVIOUSLY guilty ones. Like Michael Jackson....and the guy who claimed that he was going to murder his wife but forgot his gun in the restaurant and found her dead in the parking lot. :facepalm:

[f2akid]

You also have to consider that he had the "celebrity angle". And that angle has gotten many a guilty person off. OBVIOUSLY guilty ones. Like Michael Jackson.

Explain how Michael Jackson was 'obviously guilty'.

[Leader Desslock]

^ You know - obviously. No need for a trial, no need for a jury of peers to make the determination of guilt or for the prosecution to present a coherent case. No, it's just obvious, so we can lock him away without due process.

Obviously.

[Caster13]

^ You know - obviously. No need for a trial, no need for a jury of peers to make the determination of guilt or for the prosecution to present a coherent case. No, it's just obvious, so we can lock him away without due process.

Obviously.

That's not what I meant. Look, forget that whole deal that I made before.

The way the legal system is set up is for a reason. This isn't a dictatorship. However sometimes you get a jury full of complete idiots and because of that the conviction for any defendant out there charged with a crime the conviction can be off because of sheer lack of common sense. Like I said before, test any candidate for a jury psychologically so you know that you don't get an idiot with the IQ of a soap dish or somebody severely mentally unstable on the jury. If they are rather normal minded people, okay then. In order to be on a jury it is my honest opinion that you should be capable to do so.

[f2akid]

I'm not that knowledgeable when it comes to the American justice system but isn't the judge's word final? Doesn't the judge hold the authority to overrule any decision by the jury he/she deems as an unfit conclusion to the case? Since you guys only use one judge in each case shouldn't that put their authority much higher than a simple jury consisting of random working individuals from the local community?

[Leader Desslock]

I'm not that knowledgeable when it comes to the American justice system but isn't the judge's word final? Doesn't the judge hold the authority to overrule any decision by the jury he/she deems as an unfit conclusion to the case?
Yes, but not in all cases, and it's very rarely used even in those cases for which it is permitted. It's called judgment non obstante veredicto, which is basically a decision made by a judge that the verdict could not have been reasonably returned, based on an objective consideration of the evidence presented.

Basically, a judge will only use this option if the verdict can be logically proven wrong (i.e.: the defendant could not have possibly done it), based on the evidence.

[f2akid]

^ Ah right. So in other words the judge's word is final but he is also prevented from abusing this authority by being forced to back up any possible interventions with sound evidence that has been presented in the courtroom.

[Spadesy]

Ol' boy wasn't found guilty of anything. So that wouldn't make him obviously guilty. You can be suspicious all you want, but you don't truly know unless you were there.

[Suiko Eiji]

However sometimes you get a jury full of complete idiots and because of that the conviction for any defendant out there charged with a crime the conviction can be off because of sheer lack of common sense.

Well, it is a jury of your peers...

[Arnold]

That's not what I meant. Look, forget that whole deal that I made before.

The way the legal system is set up is for a reason. This isn't a dictatorship. However sometimes you get a jury full of complete idiots and because of that the conviction for any defendant out there charged with a crime the conviction can be off because of sheer lack of common sense. Like I said before, test any candidate for a jury psychologically so you know that you don't get an idiot with the IQ of a soap dish or somebody severely mentally unstable on the jury. If they are rather normal minded people, okay then. In order to be on a jury it is my honest opinion that you should be capable to do so.

Doesn't jury selection already do that? If not, it should.

[Caster13]

Doesn't jury selection already do that? If not, it should.

They should make the process more extensive. Some verdicts by juries that you here about with certain crimes that make the news and the evidence is well known by everyone basically are "WTF are you kidding me!?". Remember the two guys in New Jersey who killed two pizza delivery guys years ago? What would you think if those guys had been found not guilty by unanimous decision? It would have been total bull crap.

[Leader Desslock]

They should make the process more extensive.
The juries are selected by parties representing both the prosecution and the defense. The people selected are the people that both parties agree are capable of rendering a fair and unbiased verdict upon viewing the evidence.

People are disqualified for demonstrating incompetence, potential bias or any sort of conflict of interest.

For either side to select a jury member based on "their ability to spot the obvious", that would indicate bias, and hence merit disqualification.

For either side to allow the other side to select a juror for his ability to spot the obvious, that would indicate incompetent representation. Any lawyer who is doing his job at all will not allow that to happen.

That leaves the Least Common Denominator as the most qualified potential juror, and by and large, that's what we get. The least harmless of the folks who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty. Those are the "peers" by which we may all potentially be judged.

Comforting, innit?

[Caster13]

Disturbing is the word I would use.

[Shiroiyuki]

The least harmless of the folks who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty.

I've gotten out of it three times now :lol:.

I'm too 'biased'....

[old hat]

People also have the right to a speedy trial.

[CrossboneGundam]

I've gotten out of it three times now :lol:.

I'm too 'biased'....

I didn't even bother to show up and never heard back from them. :-"

[Caster13]

People also have the right to a speedy trial.

True. Some last for a long damn time.

[Spadesy]

Gotta love being in the military and constantly overseas...ain't gotta worry about pulling jury duty, nor do I get bothered while on leave (hell, we have enough "duties" to pull as it is). lol

[SapperSix]

Gotta love being in the military and constantly overseas...ain't gotta worry about pulling jury duty, nor do I get bothered while on leave (hell, we have enough "duties" to pull as it is). lol

Gotta love that SOFA too.

[Jack_Bauer]

Gotta love being in the military and constantly overseas...ain't gotta worry about pulling jury duty, nor do I get bothered while on leave (hell, we have enough "duties" to pull as it is). lol

Speaking of duties... We pimped out our duty hut. We asked MCCS if they had a spare LCD screen and they happen to have one. They mounted a 27 inch flat screen. Then we pitched in some cash and got us a cheap PC surround sound system. All we do is hook up a console or a laptop with either a HDMI or SVGA hook up and voila! instant entertainment system. However, we only use this after working hours.

[Trefellin]

^ Also, the government provides you with a grown man to make sure you've gotten dressed properly in the morning, right? Sweet deal.

[Jack_Bauer]

^ Also, the government provides you with a grown man to make sure you've gotten dressed properly in the morning, right? Sweet deal.

Yup, its called boot camp.

[Trefellin]

Yup, its called boot camp.

I wouldn't cut it as a soldier.

"Tuck in that shirt private, button it up!"

"Ok... Sergent Mom." http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee223/Trefellin/run.gif

They'd say jump, I'd say "...Why? :huh: "

[Jack_Bauer]

I wouldn't cut it as a soldier.

"tuck in that shirt private, button it up!"

"Ok... Sergent Mom." http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee223/Trefellin/run.gif

They'd say jump, I'd say "...Why? :huh: "


If you can stomach the whole concept of do as you're told and when you're told, you can cut it and make it through the recruit training. Unfortunately, the boot camp polished recruits only lasts for a few months then once they hit the operating side of the military, old habits come back. But I get what you're saying. Im sick of this particular lifestyle myself. I never know when im coming home, I either train for deployment or I am deployed, and I dont have less control of my life. I cant make big life changing decisions without consulting my superiors.

[Spadesy]

I wouldn't cut it as a soldier.

"Tuck in that shirt private, button it up!"

"Ok... Sergent Mom." http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee223/Trefellin/run.gif

They'd say jump, I'd say "...Why? :huh: "


That stuff only flies in boot camp, where the military teaches all the "it's all about me" thinkers and belligerents to obey orders quickly, as they will have to do in combat.

If you have no leadership ability or adopt a "only do what I'm told when I'm told mentality" once you get out to the operating forces, be prepared to get shipped off to Camp Services to pick up garbage or do some menial job vice doing your speciality, because your higher-ups will consider you useless. Although it's easy to believe anybody in the armed forces just "waits to do what they're told," you actually learn to take a lot of initiative or drown.

As for getting dressed in the morning...if you can't do that on your own and make yourself look presentable before starting your day, you have bigger problems to worry about aside from getting your *** chewed.

Edit: Not saying at times you don't have your life micromanaged, sometimes you do (LtGen Zilmer on Okinawa locking the whole military from leaving base in February '08 because of an alleged rape incident anyone?). Fortunately the last couple of assignments I had allowed me to be pretty much independent, so long as I take on more responsiblities.

[Spadesy]

Gotta love that SOFA too.

The same Status of Forces Agreement that holds service members accountable for any car accident, even if it's not their fault, under the reasoning that "if you weren't there the accident wouldn't have happened?"

SOFA can lick the taint.

I'd rather be in a non-SOFA country like Thailand. What does that mean? Well, you don't have to deal with any BS standardized rules because of those who 'effed up in the past, BUT if you commit a crime, you'll be in a stinky Thai jail cell playing Russian Roulette ala Deer Hunter with some Thai dude and your command will never have to know about it. :-D