A case for lying

[Holy Knight]

(Oh my God! HK is advocating lying! :P ) Hear me out, here. If the mods allow such a topic in the first place, anyway. I’ll delete if completely inappropriate as a topic.

Amid all this newfangled “ethical behavior” and "political correctness" that’s popping up, I feel I must affirm the position of the esteemed liar (not to be confused with The Weasel), who seems to be a dying breed these days. Now, I’m not talking about those sissy “white lies”, I’m talking about honest-to-goodness through-the-nose lying. I’m also dismissing what’s commonly known as “bull****”, which is in another category I call an “offensive lie”. I’m advocating the “defensive lie” and the integrity of the honest liar. In fact, I would strongly urge to tell the truth, unless you’re a well-versed and experienced liar, in which case you’ll know what’s at stake and whether or not a lie is perhaps the better choice for everyone involved.

So, why this thread? I must admit I’m peeved at the superior behavior of so-called moralists who believe more in their righteous, structured, systems of right and wrong, rather than allowing for the ambivalence of the world around us, which isn’t all black and white (I’m also being force-fed this stuff in my classes, and I’m astounded at the number of students who swallow such “ethical” phrases, which, ironically, are themselves bull**** in all its superior moral authority, but I heavily digress).

What is the lying I’m supporting? The right to protect oneself, one’s situation and the things one cares about. But you must deliver! A good lie is like a promise : you keep it and you give results. The lies you say are now the truth, and none can contest the truth, because you made it true by delivering on it. A good liar is the best engineer : he can build whatever he said he would because he knows every property of what he is building. “Bull****” is about misinforming, misdirecting, and setting a negative example of yourself (once found out) only to demean the intellect of others to your benefit (usually short-lived), also known as “ego-boosting”, which is exemplary of a weak spirit and a self-conscious person. The honest lie, the good lie, is when you put the weight of the situation on your shoulders to shield the less fortunate or when you have to get out or else you’re done for. It’s about respecting others, who they are and being true to your desires and motivations to achieve a beneficial outcome otherwise improbable in the case of saying the truth. It is a survival tactic that’s going out of shape, and which needs to be kept fit for the moments you might need it.

What are the benefits of lying? Besides the given results you’re looking for, I find it stimulates creativity, spontaneity, good memory, responsibility and self-reliance. The first three should be obvious. You need to be creative to spin a good one and spontaneous with the required information to come up with it on the fly in such a fashion as you won’t be found out. Good memory is necessary to recall when and what you lied about as well as the context in which you should be lying (not to mention the numerous variables which might be in play). The latter two are probably antithesis to everything you know, so allow me to explain. Responsibility is about being aware. You are aware of the lie and its effects and you act accordingly. It can have heavy consequences and only the best liars will accurately gauge the risk of a lie and whether or not it should be said. Self-reliance is about relying on your own ingenuity and intellect to use the lie to your benefit. When lying, no one tells you what is the best lie or what’s the best string of words that will make right a situation you know is going horribly wrong. When lying, it is you, and only you, who must come up with it and carry the responsibility.

Now, how does one lie? I cannot stress this enough, you believe the lie! You visualize it, you recall it, if only because you lived it (if talking about the past) or because you’re going to make it happen (if talking about the future). Confidence is crucial and you’re perfectly relaxed because you aren’t lying. This isn’t about self-deception. It’s about perfectly believing the lie in the moment you tell it, as well as having the memory to recall the instance in which you used it. This takes skill, experience and keeps your wits sharp over time. Otherwise, practice, practice, and more practice. Start with your siblings and with white lies. Observe their reactions as well as yours. Be acutely aware of your tics and gauge internal responses. Move on to telling simple, inconsequential lies to others. From there, it’s all about being the better actor. Finally, keep it simple. Keep the elaborate stuff for the dinner party to impress others or make the better joke. But when under pressure or the heat is on you, keep it simple and believable and don’t get cocky by embellishing.

Lastly, and I’m putting this in big, bold letter, be responsible. Others might tell you lying is something only the scum of the earth do. All I’m saying is that it’s a useful skill that can come in handy and shouldn’t be dismissed simply because “it’s wrong”. In any case, however, people do not like liars, and for good reason : they don’t deliver. You, as a responsible liar, however, will, and accept responsibility for the mess you’ve created when it falls apart. The grace of a good liar is accepting when he is defeated and resolves to become a better one in the future, while learning from past mistakes. Self-improvement, integrity, ingenuity, responsibility, self-awareness, being a great actor and a better engineer and being true to oneself is the mark of the best liar.

/end rant, and no, I’m not doing a TL;DR summary because I’d be lying if I said I could summarize this post in a few words. :lol:

Finally, do you agree or disagree? I would love to know what everyone thinks.

[Hara!]

Man, AN is just pumping out awesome threads lately!

[superplough]

Wow, that's one of the longest posts ever

Personally, I'm not a big fan of lying. I wont go out of my way to lie about something. Also, I'm not very good at it.

[Leader Desslock]

I'd just like to comment on a sentiment that gave your post particular legitimacy in my eye:
Now, how does one lie? I cannot stress this enough, you believe the lie! You visualize it, you recall it, if only because you lived it (if talking about the past) or because you’re going to make it happen (if talking about the future). Confidence is crucial and you’re perfectly relaxed because you aren’t lying. This isn’t about self-deception. It’s about perfectly believing the lie in the moment you tell it...
This is as true as... gravity. Planck's constant. The speed of light in a vacuum. This is absolute, 100%, no-swanning-about-with-mere-theories, axiomatic fact.

Belief is the thing that separates the true liars from the posers, the blowhards, the pranksters and cowards. A true liar believes what he's saying. I mean believes it. Not just "pretends" to believe it, but believes it with the certainty that the sun will rise in the morning. The listener might not inhabit a world that corresponds to the particular details of the world the liar is currently describing, but that's not the liar's concern. The liar is describing the world he knows to be there, whether it actually is or not.

As I've said ever since high school, if you don't believe it yourself, how do you expect anyone else to believe it?


What is the lying I’m supporting? The right to protect oneself, one’s situation and the things one cares about. But you must deliver! A good lie is like a promise : you keep it and you give results. The lies you say are now the truth, and none can contest the truth, because you made it true by delivering on it. A good liar is the best engineer : he can build whatever he said he would because he knows every property of what he is building.
Isn't this the entire premise behind The Secret (http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Rhonda-Byrne/dp/1582701709/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232530664&sr=8-1)?

I view a great liar as a great improvisational actor. The liar adopts a persona and acts within that persona for the time required. If he never leaves that persona, then he's effectively made lifestyle changes and become a different person.

Nobody calls that wrong, do they? Of course not. In fact, there are whole bookshelves full of self-help books designed to help you do exactly that.

Just as actors rarely stay permanently in one role, great liars don't stay in one persona. They switch from one role to the next, sometimes playing several at once. Is this bad? Not necessarily. A great liar (like a great actor) has the ability to become the person everyone needs him to be at a given moment.

It can be used altruistically. Were the people in that jetliner that just splashed down in the Hudson scared? You bet. But I can guarantee there were several individuals who stepped up to the plate, swallowed their fear and acted like they knew what the hell was going on. They helped keep order, maintain peoples' confidence that everything would be okay, and did their best to get everyone off the plane. Same thing happens with every emergency.

History is full of people who had no idea what they were doing at the time. But they knew folks needed someone to lead them out of the crisis/chaos of the day, so they stepped up like they knew what they were doing, gave direction, issued orders to the troops, inspired the masses and eventually got everything to work out. These are the great leaders, heroes and military commanders of history.

I haven't seen TTGL, but isn't that sort of Kamina's gift? His ability to speechify and wrap everyone else up in a kind of inspired dream of The World I See That We Can Make Together? And it works, so he delivers on his lie.

Finally, do you agree or disagree? I would love to know what everyone thinks.
I don't think lying is automatically "right or wrong" by definition. I think the liar's motives and actions come into play, there. Lying is a tool used by people to do right or wrong things, but there's nothing inherently right or wrong about the tool itself.

[LOSTyears]

Awesome ^_^ HK your threads always invoke me into conversation. I do agree to answer your question, but I do believe there to be a gray area in the matter depending on its motivation.

This thread's a bit ironic for me, starting the year I've taken on a bit of a "creative process" myself if you will, reasons being along the lines of taking on a heavier load psychologically and socially to help launch one of my endeavors. Of course I'm just tweaking with it at the moment.
I normally don't advocate fabrication I've naturally sucked at it but over the years I have pondered and experimented with its possibilities to improve or propel certain facets of my life, I know that sounds weird. Besides sometimes doing something so wrong can feel so damn good, especially when adding cleverness and tact(stank on it). Its nature, and there's nothing more honest than that.

Oh and I'd like to add the cooperative lie, me and my buddy have often done so with jobs. Working in areas we've never really had the credentials for nor wouldn't have gotten anyway due to not having the right affiliation but ended up pulling off in the long run and gaining some valuable skills.

Damn this thread is liberating.

[Leader Desslock]

Related Point: Is there ever a time when telling the Truth is the wrong thing to do?

If so, then that would help in blurring the "right/wrong" line in the act of lying, which would lend support to the case for morally justified prevarication.

[The Million Dollar Prons]

I lie most of the time.

and when I'm not lying I'm exadgerating.

In fact this post here? All lies and exadgerations.

In in effect I say the truth all the time.

[Old Ape Face]

Related Point: Is there ever a time when telling the Truth is the wrong thing to do?

If so, then that would help in blurring the "right/wrong" line in the act of lying, which would lend support to the case for morally justified prevarication.

Telling your girlfreind you cheated on her might not be a good idea.

Telling her you met the tooth fairy and gave you money might not be a good idea.

[Leader Desslock]

Telling your girlfreind you cheated on her might not be a good idea.
No, you're missing the point there. Admitting to an extra-relational affair might well be inconvenient for the confessor, but I don't think many people would call it morally wrong.

I'm going for an example of the latter, not the former.

[Old Ape Face]

No, you're missing the point there. Admitting to an extra-relational affair might well be inconvenient for the confessor, but I don't think many people would call it morally wrong.

I'm going for an example of the latter, not the former.

The movie "Catch me if you can" with Leo Dicapreo, and Tom Hanks :P Of cource he's a con-artist, but in the end he turned out to have good Lawyer skills and became a lawyer.

[Hisoka]

Now, how does one lie? I cannot stress this enough, you believe the lie! You visualize it, you recall it, if only because you lived it (if talking about the past) or because you’re going to make it happen (if talking about the future). Confidence is crucial and you’re perfectly relaxed because you aren’t lying. This isn’t about self-deception. It’s about perfectly believing the lie in the moment you tell it, as well as having the memory to recall the instance in which you used it. This takes skill, experience and keeps your wits sharp over time.

First of all, A+ thread as I read every word and second I love this part quoted above. I'm a straight shooter and am as honest about things as they come when it involves people I like/love. However, if I'm either not too fond of you or want to keep my distance I'll do whatever it takes to keep that distance. I realized my potential for lying when I was in high school. I was pretty popular and lots of people either wanted my time or free time out of school. Usually I wanted nothing to do with it so I started experimenting with lies and realized that you can't fool anyone if you don't believe every word you're saying. So the visual and calmness is absolutely key. Then came a time where nobody would even question me, I was pulling it off with such ease causing no hard feelings of rejection and so on. I only lie when there is a benefit for doing so or when it might prevent an unnecessary altercation. But again, that's where it ends. When it comes to friends a family I tend to be extremely sarcastic, but I don't lie to them. If I have something to say they're going to hear every word of it. :lol:

[tenshi_a]

Others might tell you lying is something only the scum of the earth do.

Well, why not? It's true.

The worst ones are liars who believe what they say because they end up entirely delusional. Or, working in marketing. Or, both.

You're ok just not telling people things that are true because they haven't asked, or saying something is the case as though it's always like that even though right now just happens to be the one moment in time that it's true and the rest of the time it's not even slightly true at all. Since, it's not lying.

Also, ordinary banter between friends where you just say a bunch of stuff about the world that's blatantly not true and everyone knows is not true, but you say for comedy purposes, that's ok. It's not really lying if you had zero or less chance of misleading people.

Persuading people that they don't really want the answer to a question is also preferable to lying to them. But that's pretty borderline, and is what bad politicians do all the time. You know, the ones that no-one is impressed by because they evade answering questions when it's plain they know the answers.

Oh and maybe that thing that medical people do; telling people they'll be ok when they're just about to die. No, on second thoughts, I don't like that either. You end up with ghosts like that, since people don't finish stuff properly. Though if it stops them worrying enough that they have a better chance of surviving... hmm, but in that case it's not really a lie...

So to conclude: never date an actor or actress, it's really really hard work since they lie all the time and are so celebrated for it that they don't even notice.

[Leader Desslock]

The movie "Catch me if you can" with Leo Dicapreo, and Tom Hanks :P Of cource he's a con-artist, but in the end he turned out to have good Lawyer skills and became a lawyer.
While I was going for something nonfictional, you did bring to mind the following point:

A good trial lawyer has to be a good liar. It is not the purpose of a trial lawyer to discover and portray "the truth" of the matter. Each side has its own "truth", by definition. The purpose of a good trial lawyer (on both sides) is to get the jury to vote for his specific truth.

In other words, to lie believably. Or at least beyond a reasonable doubt.

[The Million Dollar Prons]

The worst ones are liars who believe what they say because they end up entirely delusional..

Hey that happened to me, it ain't so bad :P

[Mr March]

"George Costanza: Jerry, just remember...it's not a lie, if you believe it"

:P

[Gibb]

I once told a fabricated story for so long that I eventually believed it myself.

Back when I was in my early teens, I used to tell people that I started wearing glasses because of a paper cut I received on my right cornea, and having a patch over my right eye for 6 months. Part of the story is true, I did get a paper cut on my right cornea, and I did have a patch over my eye, but it was only for 24 hours or so. Eyes heal pretty quickly apparently, so I didn't wear the eye patch very long, but I somehow convinced myself that I wore one for 6 months.

I found out about my lie when I told the story to somebody when my mom was nearby. She said "You didn't have a patch for 6 months, it was only 24 hours!"

Anyway, I think lying is a pretty horrible offense nowadays, so I try to avoid it at all times. I would only tell white lies to not hurt somebody's feelings.

[Shiroiyuki]

Telling your girlfreind you cheated on her might not be a good idea.

So having her believe you are still the trustworthy bastard you always were, is?

I'm glad I don't have to worry about you having a girlfriend. :uhh:

[Hisoka]

I found out about my lie when I told the story to somebody when my mom was nearby. She said "You didn't have a patch for 6 months, it was only 24 hours!"


I don't know why I find this so funny. :lol: Were you like... "REALLY?" and just snap out of it or something? There are two types of believing. One where you actually enter the fantasy land you created for yourself (not good) and the one where you create a visual and think about it often enough where it seems real but you obviously know it isn't. Generally speaking like tenshi_a said, being delusional isn't a good trait. But in this harmless eye patch scenario it's really funny. Question. Why did you lie about it in the first place and how did you get a paper cut on your right cornea? That would appear to be somewhat challenging.

[Shiroiyuki]

Why did you lie about it in the first place and how did you get a paper cut on your right cornea? That would appear to be somewhat challenging.

Maybe he just really loves books a lot.

[Gibb]

Question. Why did you lie about it in the first place and how did you get a paper cut on your right cornea? That would appear to be somewhat challenging.

I'm not sure really. I think I just wanted an excuse for why my eyes went bad that wasn't related to playing video games my whole childhood. The difference between "tragic papercut incident" and "natural deterioration due to prolonged exposure to video games" makes for a good story at recess.

As for the papercut, I remember it pretty vividly. I was sitting at the dinner table with my back to the kitchen. My brother was in charge of setting up the table, so was walking towards the table with a stack of paper plates. He went to put one down for the spot to my left, but he was doing so from my right, so he basically sliced out a small chunk of my cornea while trying to reach across the table with the plate. I ran into the living room screaming, and my Mom looked into my eye and could see a small piece of my cornea floating around in my tears, haha. It surprisingly wasn't very painful, and was more shocking than pain inducing.

Surprisingly enough, my brother must have gotten some bad karma from that ordeal, because about a year later I was in an argument with my brother about some video game (an NES game if I remember properly... something like Kickmaster maybe?). I ended up throwing the instruction manual at him, which.. you guessed it, gave him a papercut in the eye. My brother and I are the only two people I know who've had papercuts in the eye.

[Ikari Warrior]

Someone had posted an image from 4chan in another thread like this a WHILE ago. It was entitled "how not to be a loser." It was a multi-step process on how to improve one's life. Included in this process was "What do you want to do?" To which the example-figure responded "I want to do ______" (fill in the blank). The narrator-voice responds by saying "Then say you're already doing it." The example-figure argues, "Isn't that lying?"

The narrator elaborates, "No, idiot, listen. If you say that you're doing what you want to do, eventually you'll start doing it."

So, lying in that sense is a self-fulfilling prophecy, which is essentially what Desslock was talking about, I think. Where a "lie" becomes a permanent (positive) behavior change. That's the kind of lie I can endorse.

http://guide2homelessness.blogspot.com/2004/10/get-comfortable-lying.html - More on lying as a survival tactic :)

[Trefellin]

I don't like to lie. It proves weakness and I don't appreciate that feeling. I especially refuse to lie for other people.

If I do lie, I have to remind myself often that it's not the truth because I accept the lie far too easily.

[Leader Desslock]

Has anyone seen the TV program "Game Show in My Head"? I don't want to start a discussion about the show, but I do think it's interesting and relevant that the show glorifies contestants who are able to think fast on their feet and lie plausibly to strangers. That implies a certain social acceptance of lying, no?

[goddessofanime]

everybody Lies

[Hara!]

everybody Lies

I don't.

lol, oh wait...

[Xhalen]

everybody Lies

I don't think this is true, although I understand the generalization. Lying requires that a certain level of sophistication exists in the person/persons involved.

[Tom Servo]

This sort of thing was discussed at length over two millennia ago in lesser hippias.

[Old Ape Face]

everybody Lies

Of cource everyone lies, everyone masturbates too, and if they say they don't they're lying.

[waltsoph3]

Holy Knight i gotta give you props for this very important thread. A very intresting one too.

Ok pick your poison...

You can take the path that House belives in "Everybody Lies". Or you can take the good old saying path "Honesty is the best Policy. "

I defently belive there is a grey line. And the right way to use a skill. Everyone has their own line.
A difference between deception and down right lying.

I've delt with lairs. Well not all kinds but some pretty darn good ones. Some we're down right very very creative ones. Ones you could belive that their word is gold. Just like the ones Holy Knight described. The kind that can't be described with simple words.

Needless to say what may be a "skill"..just like life.. skills have their consequences. Simple cause and effects.

Heres a real life example when you don't use it:

This happened to me during one christmas. I was playing Clue with faimly members. Ofcourse to win you need to guess who did it to win game by process of elimination. Needless to say one player everytime we all asked him for the gun( because we used a person and a place already eleminated from process gussing the gun) he didn't reveal it and lied. I was not happy either with this faimly member.

That liar won the game because he hid the gun from everyone. Yet because he did it no one would ever play Clue with him again.

Simple enough? So choose wisly how you use a "skill". Because it might come back to bite you in the you know what. Thats the beauty of karma. Trust me. :angry:

[yuzuha]

This post is a lie!
-don't ya just love a good paradoxial expression?-

Someone called me up once trying to sell me siding (I lived in an apartment... duh!). My room mate an I were in an evil mood so we pretended to be psychiatrists in town for a convention later that month and really needed a typewriter to finish up the paper we were going to present at the (think we told her it was a for a study of the effects of psychotomimetic drugs on acetylcholine inhibitors in the cerebrial cortex of rats or something "druggy" like that... and this was back in the '70s before PCs).

We never did let the cat out of the bag and kept that siding sales gal on the phone for a half an hour looking up office supply companies for us where we might be able to rent a desk and an IBM selectric typewriter for 3 weeks. (well, gee... it was only fair that we left her feeling good that she helped someone after we wasted that much of her time ^-^)

[Holy Knight]

Here I was thinking I'd come back banned (sorry, Shiroyuki :P ). -_-;

Instead, I find some pretty interesting replies in a thread that doing good, so far. Unfortunately, I won't be able to correctly respond right now for lack of time, but I'll be sure to do so once I can.

I'll just highlight this bit for now :

I haven't seen TTGL, but isn't that sort of Kamina's gift? His ability to speechify and wrap everyone else up in a kind of inspired dream of The World I See That We Can Make Together? And it works, so he delivers on his lie.

If it were to be put briefly, this is a facet of what I wish to present. Kamina had a dream and he sucked others into it while not knowing if he would be able to give them what he promised. So he lies and he believes it because he wants it to be true. He does deliver, if improbably.

Keep it up. I like what I see here. :)

[Shiroiyuki]

Here I was thinking I'd come back banned (sorry, Shiroyuki :P ). -_-;

*sigh*

My lawyer has advised me to no longer offer this service for free. But he did tell me I can stand on the street still. And dress like a ***** if I wanted to, as it's good for business.

[Old Ape Face]

*sigh*

My lawyer has advised me to no longer offer this service for free. But he did tell me I can stand on the street still. And dress like a ***** if I wanted to, as it's good for business.

So you're that 60 year old police woman who dresses like a ***** to jail bait sick perverts on the street who attempt to pay for prostitution.

[Shiroiyuki]

So you're that 60 year old police woman who dresses like a ***** to jail bait sick perverts on the street who attempt to pay for prostitution.

Yes, that must be it. Funny how that escaped my attention :uhh:.

[Old Ape Face]

Yes, that must be it. Funny how that escaped my attention :uhh:.

Well you're doing a good job busting the guys who can afford that sort of thing.

[Shiroiyuki]

^My life is now complete.

I once lied about being a porn star in my college English class. It was Introduction Day and I thought my life was pretty boring -- why not make up a new one? Told them I mostly did amateur films, like the hit "Two Men, One ******".

Sad thing was....no one really seemed surprised :unsure:

[Hisoka]

Very interesting that you made this thread today when the new series Lie To Me aired on Fox. First episode was really good and looks like something I'll really enjoy since observant is my middle name.

[Jon]

I agree to the fact that sometimes lying is necessary, like to protect yours or someone else's feelings. Example: One time I was at a party (mind you, at my age we call them "social events" :lol:) and a huge fight broke out between one of my close friends and some other dude. Everyone knew the fight emerged because they were under the influence of...well...let's just call it water, but nonetheless it was getting physical. I told my friend to go hide in a nearby bedroom and wait it out. The other guy approached me, I guess because he saw me uh...drinking water with him earlier, and asks me very angrily "Where the **** is that *****!?" I responded saying he was kicked out of the house and someone drove him home. Of course my friend was just in some bedroom...with a chick apparently, where they were...uh... playing "twister."-_-; I told the dude that it wasn't a big deal, and my friend was over reacting to something stupid, which after that he calmed down. I talked with him for awhile and got him a couple drinks, which he later passed out....because of...um...he was "tired." I told my friend it was safe to come out...and all was good!:thumbsup:

That's lying and protecting, something I find nothing wrong with. Simple concept, but that doesn't make me a bad person. Sometimes I also lie to avoid awkward conversations, but besides that and the above example, I'm a very straight forward person.

And Holy Knight, I love your threads. If there was a reputation system you'd def. get a lot!:P

[Holy Knight]

Part 1 :

Okay, first of all, apologies. I wrote my OP at 2 in the morning, in half an hour, while quite tired and exasperated. I guess it shows, so forgive me for the bad grammar, lack of cohesiveness and the brash tone it presented.

Perhaps my punishment is to edit a 15000 character-long text.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of lying. I wont go out of my way to lie about something. Also, I'm not very good at it.

Then don't. Only lie if you're fine with it.

This is as true as... gravity. Planck's constant. The speed of light in a vacuum. This is absolute, 100%, no-swanning-about-with-mere-theories, axiomatic fact.

Belief is the thing that separates the true liars from the posers, the blowhards, the pranksters and cowards. A true liar believes what he's saying. I mean believes it. Not just "pretends" to believe it, but believes it with the certainty that the sun will rise in the morning. The listener might not inhabit a world that corresponds to the particular details of the world the liar is currently describing, but that's not the liar's concern. The liar is describing the world he knows to be there, whether it actually is or not.

As I've said ever since high school, if you don't believe it yourself, how do you expect anyone else to believe it?

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Isn't this the entire premise behind The Secret (http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Rhonda-Byrne/dp/1582701709/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232530664&sr=8-1)?

Interesting you should bring this up. I watched The Secret and while I somewhat agree with the idea it presents, in my own way, the package was too well made. I doubted, and still do, that a single person could have made such a perfect piece of marketing. If anyone watches (or reads) The Secret, notice how the message is presented. Personally, I acknowledged the effectiveness of the delivery, even though I couldn't stomach it since I could see it for what it was.

I view a great liar as a great improvisational actor. The liar adopts a persona and acts within that persona for the time required. If he never leaves that persona, then he's effectively made lifestyle changes and become a different person.

Exactly. This level of skill isn't easy to achieve, though it is quite useful as a tool.

I also agree it isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's a tool, so it's all in how the user decides to put it to use.

It can be used altruistically. [...]

Which is the use I most advocate, along with the many other uses one can put it to, for the benefit of both himself and others.

I don't think lying is automatically "right or wrong" by definition. I think the liar's motives and actions come into play, there. Lying is a tool used by people to do right or wrong things, but there's nothing inherently right or wrong about the tool itself.

I'll quote myself here :

All I’m saying is that it’s a useful skill that can come in handy and shouldn’t be dismissed simply because “it’s wrong”.

Awesome ^_^ HK your threads always invoke me into conversation. I do agree to answer your question, but I do believe there to be a gray area in the matter depending on its motivation.

[...]

It is a grey area. Though so long as it's motivated correctly, it's perfectly fine. Plenty rely on lying to profit from situations or simply get by. You just have to know your limits and how far you're willing to go, which ties in to the idea of responsibility that I profess.

And remember, you aren't doing anything wrong. You're building a new character and you are confident in this character, because it who you want to be. Keep it up and things will work out.

Related Point: Is there ever a time when telling the Truth is the wrong thing to do?

If so, then that would help in blurring the "right/wrong" line in the act of lying, which would lend support to the case for morally justified prevarication.

I don't think I've ever been in a situation where saying the truth would be "wrong", though I can think of some as a thought experiment.

Mostly in films, I've seen some characters decide not to tell their dying grandmother that her cherished offspring had just died. An evil character would tell her just so she wouldn't rest in peace, whereas a good one would simply let her believe otherwise.

This reminds me of the film Blood Diamond :

At the end, Leo's character is hit by a bullet, but the plane he wants to catch can only hold two more passengers. In the end, he decides to let Djimon's character and his son go on and he sacrifices himself in doing so.

Not the best example since he doesn't lie, but I've seen plenty of other instances where the main character lies about the "exit object", which can only hold a limited number of people and he doesn't board in the end. Perhaps an "evil" person would say the truth so everyone panics and kills each other, while he stays to the side and reaps the benefit of keeping his life. He would have effectively used the truth as a weapon. Kind of like that?

Actually, expanding on that, simply using the truth to cause panic is a way of doing wrong. I'm advocating lying to keep control of a situation. The opposite would be to use the truth for the purposes of chaos. Interesting thought.

First of all, A+ thread as I read every word and second I love this part quoted above. I'm a straight shooter and am as honest about things as they come when it involves people I like/love. However, if I'm either not too fond of you or want to keep my distance I'll do whatever it takes to keep that distance. [...]

I can perfectly relate and I have no qualms about saying this is indeed an advantage. :)

Well, why not? It's true.

Then perhaps humans are all equally vile in this regard, what with all the white lies everyone tells?

The worst ones are liars who believe what they say because they end up entirely delusional. Or, working in marketing. Or, both.

The ones who end up delusional probably tried to keep up too many lies for too long. At one point, it all blurs. I don't know about marketing, though. I think it could be pretty fun to try to come up with something so incredibly creative it sells itself. There's joy in that. Besides, isn't it against the law to lie when advertising something?

[...] So to conclude... [...]

I don't contest this. As I said above, it's up to the individual to make his choices.

I found out about my lie when I told the story to somebody when my mom was nearby. She said "You didn't have a patch for 6 months, it was only 24 hours!"

Good one. :lol:

I recall a similar instance when I was a kid, though not the particulars. I simply preferred the lie to the truth, so I ended up believing the lie until I remembered it was otherwise. In my experience, kids do this a lot, but it never goes any further.

Ah, I remember one about my brother. He must have been 6 years old and I was 8 or thereabout. There was this friend of his who promised he would make him a "little monster" out of various household ingredients (including, though not limited to, baking soda and flour). The day arrives when his friend shows him his creation, with me in the vicinity, and out from his bag he holds... nothing! He declares, over empty hands "whoa-oa, here it is!" while wobbling around like there really was something there.

I was instantly incredulous. But my brother (and probably his friend. He sounded convinced), who probably wanted to believe, acted like it was real for a whole week despite my protestations.

Anyway, I think lying is a pretty horrible offense nowadays, so I try to avoid it at all times. I would only tell white lies to not hurt somebody's feelings.

Is it? Only if you get caught. But you perfectly believe what you're saying, so you won't. :P

More seriously, some prefer to outright say the truth despite other's feelings and that can be a refreshing candor. It doesn't make for easy listening, though. I can't say I like white lies, if only because I can tell when someone is lying and I don't like that because they don't believe what they're saying. If you're going to lie, do so outright, or don't do it at all.

I'm not judging you here; just stating my position.

Someone had posted an image from 4chan in another thread like this a WHILE ago. It was entitled "how not to be a loser." It was a multi-step process on how to improve one's life. Included in this process was "What do you want to do?" To which the example-figure responded "I want to do ______" (fill in the blank). The narrator-voice responds by saying "Then say you're already doing it." The example-figure argues, "Isn't that lying?"

[...]

That's the kind of lie I can endorse.

I saw that, so I know what you're talking about. I think it was very appropriate. If you want to get somewhere you have to first believe you're going to get there and start visualizing it, until you come to live it.

http://guide2homelessness.blogspot.com/2004/10/get-comfortable-lying.html - More on lying as a survival tactic :)

Good to know, I'll be checking it out.

[Holy Knight]

Part 2 :

This sort of thing was discussed at length over two millennia ago in lesser hippias.

I'll be checking this out too.

[...]

Simple enough? So choose wisly how you use a "skill". Because it might come back to bite you in the you know what. Thats the beauty of karma. Trust me. :angry:

When I play board/card/other games, I cheat, I lie, I make sleights of hand, I distract and I misdirect. Why? Because I do so when I play to win (if it's just a fun game, I play in a perfectly straight fashion). In games of chance, where luck is the pre-dominant factor, that is the only way you can control the flow. Say you put your life on the line. Would you believe in Lady Luck to make it out alive? Sometimes, playing by the rules isn't the best choice.

I prefer to call it "making your own luck".

This post is a lie!
-don't ya just love a good paradoxial expression?-

Someone called me up once trying to sell me siding (I lived in an apartment... duh!). My room mate an I were in an evil mood so we pretended to be psychiatrists in town for a convention later that month and really needed a typewriter to finish up the paper we were going to present at the (think we told her it was a for a study of the effects of psychotomimetic drugs on acetylcholine inhibitors in the cerebrial cortex of rats or something "druggy" like that... and this was back in the '70s before PCs).

We never did let the cat out of the bag and kept that siding sales gal on the phone for a half an hour looking up office supply companies for us where we might be able to rent a desk and an IBM selectric typewriter for 3 weeks. (well, gee... it was only fair that we left her feeling good that she helped someone after we wasted that much of her time ^-^)

Another good one!

This does bring up the idea of "ethical behavior" in some trades, however. In the area of science and medicine, this is a crucial part of one's job. Someone being dishonest can ruin the next 10 years of experimental work because the data provided was cooked-up and that isn't fun for anyone involved. When presenting facts, these should be the straight-up facts.

Unless you're in the position of Galileo, or if you're going to promptly rectify the lie after sorting out the sticky issues, I disapprove of it in cases which involve too many people.

Very interesting that you made this thread today when the new series Lie To Me aired on Fox. First episode was really good and looks like something I'll really enjoy since observant is my middle name.

I was avidly watching the calendar in order to promote this show through an indirect source and thus make myself incredibly rich by being hailed as the next clairvoyant messiah.

I agree to the fact that sometimes lying is necessary, like to protect yours or someone else's feelings. Example: One time I was at a party (mind you, at my age we call them "social events" :lol) and a huge fight broke out between one of my close friends and some other dude. Everyone knew the fight emerged because they were under the influence of...well...let's just call it water, but nonetheless it was getting physical. I told my friend to go hide in a nearby bedroom and wait it out. The other guy approached me, I guess because he saw me uh...drinking water with him earlier, and asks me very angrily "Where the **** is that *****!?" I responded saying he was kicked out of the house and someone drove him home. Of course my friend was just in some bedroom...with a chick apparently, where they were...uh... playing "twister." -_-; I told the dude that it wasn't a big deal, and my friend was over reacting to something stupid, which after that he calmed down. I talked with him for awhile and got him a couple drinks, which he later passed out....because of...um...he was "tired." I told my friend it was safe to come out...and all was good!:thumbsup

That's lying and protecting, something I find nothing wrong with. Simple concept, but that doesn't make me a bad person. Sometimes I also lie to avoid awkward conversations, but besides that and the above example, I'm a very straight forward person.

And Holy Knight, I love your threads. If there was a reputation system you'd def. get a lot! :P

Cool story, bro. I definitely approve of such use. :thumbsup:

In conclusion, if I missed anyone, apologies and I hoped I responded sufficiently. I also really appreciate the fact that most enjoyed my OP and thought it was awesome. I was expecting more resistance and disagreement, to tell the truth. Or maybe those who didn't like it haven't said so? If not, I'd love to hear about that.

Perhaps this says something about the idea everyone holds about lying. I'm not going to draw any conclusions about that here, since I think that would be hasty judgement. I simply find this thread a very interesting one. Kudos to those who see the power and goodwill of lying. :thumbsup:

[Meggles]

Interesting thread...

I have no moral issues with lying (as long as its within reason), but I only lie when the benefits outweigh the risks and I'm sure I can pull it off.

If you're bad at lying, don't do it, or tell white lies to practice before going for the big stuff. BTW, have you seen that show on Fox, "Lie to Me". I've only seen commercials for it, but this thread reminded me of it.