3D Atom...

[kenshinbebop]

So my brother, in 6th gade, is doing an extra credit for science. He has to build a 3D diagram of an atom...

We've got those foam balls and everything, we just don't know how to build it.

Ashamed as I am, in 10th grade, I can't describe an atom.

Can anyone help me/?

[Fobb]

I made one of those once. It just consists of a bunch of electrons orbiting a nucleus.

http://www.imghostit.com/24680/5qy2egv5arge.gif

What I did was get one big styrofoam ball surrounded by smaller styrofoam balls.

[Tidusauron12]

^Horrible picture of an atom, but w/e. If you brother is taking a special level class, like "honors" or something (I had that in 6th grade), I don't recommend using the model Fobb posted. We all know electrons don't orbit the nucleus of an atom like a TV around Peter, right?

[Fobb]

=(
fillerererer

[Ikari Warrior]

I suggest picking an atom that's simple, yet elaborate, like Oxygen. That way, you can clearly illustrate how many protons, neutrons, and electrons it has.

And I don't know whether electrons orbit the nucleus, I was always under the impression that they did. They're all so small anyway, that any model you come up with for an atom is conceptual anyhow.

[germanturkey]

its all about the electron cloud..

[CrossboneGundam]

We all know electrons don't orbit the nucleus of an atom like a TV around Peter, right?

Uh, yes they do.

[Nakey]

http://img.gsmarena.com/vv/pics/o2/o2-xda-atom_00.jpg

Atom

[/Phone Geek]

For simplicity, and because tidus doesn't know what he's talking about, make a 3d version of fobb's picture

[kenshinbebop]

I basically did Fobbs pic...

I did a Lithium atom, 3 electrons, 3 protons, 4 neutrons. I bunched up the protons and neutrons and connected them with toothpicks for the nucleus, then with these pipe cleaner type things, I did a circle around the nucleus and 2 electrons, than a bigger circle around that and 1 electron.

I'll post pics if anyones interested...

I did it basically all, and its my bros project. :lol:

[Undrave]

That pic is a pretty old and mostly outdated representation of an atom, but its simple and comprehensible by the uneducated mass.

Electrons don't stick to the same orbit, they jump from level to level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom

[Nakey]

but its simple and comprehensible by the uneducated mass.

That, and that alone is why we recommend that old and outdated idea of an atom.

simple and comprehensible. I dare say showing them fobb's atom is far more simplistic, then say, showing them my atom...

it also means the project can be done within a short amount of time.

[Midoriko87]

I think Tidusauron was talking about the shape of the orbitals. And, Fobb's model is good enough. Also, just askin', but none of us are under the impression that electrons are just jumping levels for the Hell of it? Energy must be released or absorbed by the atom for electrons to move to a lower/higher energy level.

[Fobb]

You guys are forgetting that this is a 6th grade science class, not bionuclear theory

[blackknight]

You guys are forgetting that this is a 6th grade science class, not bionuclear theory

So? Educate them early so that they don't grow up to be one of many in the ignorant masses.

Still, accurately representing the actions of an atom in a 3-D stationary model would be difficult for a sixth-grader to create. I would say create the ignorants'-view model, with a disclaimer stating that this is the dumbed-down version, while also explaining the actions taken by the sub-atomic particles as the move through time and space.

With luck, the people who see his project would leave a little bit smarter than they had been, thereby (maybe) slightly decreasing the amount of ignorance in the world.

[Fobb]

What an atom looks like isn't exactly life changing knowledge. The masses can educate themselves in the fields they choose to go into, because a practicing accountant doesn't need that kind of information.

And outlining the basic structure of an atom is more practical than going into details of any specifics.

[Midoriko87]

That, and that alone is why we recommend that old and outdated idea of an atom.

simple and comprehensible. I dare say showing them fobb's atom is far more simplistic, then say, showing them my atom...

I would think so, seeing as how that picture you posted isn't of an atom at all.

So? Educate them early so that they don't grow up to be one of many in the ignorant masses.

Ignorant masses? The human brain can only hold so much information. Oh yea, and it's just an atom. I don't see the sense in overloading students' (grade school to graduate) minds with knowledge they'll never use and which will inevitably be forgotten.

And, you know, just a wild guess, but I think some of us are probably overestimating our own understanding of atoms. :lol: "Up yours, Midoriko!" Now, now. I think you're an intelligent bunch, but maybe we're placing a little too much value in that info we got from General Chem... :
;) Aw, you guys! Just lookin' out for your emotional well-being.. We got some Physical Scientists here at AN. You're not Midoriko, the Shame will kill you. :P

[blackknight]

My point, oh discouraging ones, is that the people who are actually interested in the subject will take the time to read the card, thereby potentially learning more than they knew before. They, in turn, would spread that knowledge. Some would ignore it, while others would retain the knowledge, and later repeat the cycle. By these means the information would lead to an over-all drop in ignorance, as people who may be interested would then gain accurate information.

And besides, since sixth-graders are required to take the same classes anyway, those who do not understand the subject as well can use the additional information to cram for the inevitable test(s). In this manner they would be advanced to the stage when they can focus more singularly on the subjects of their choice. Therefore, the additional information aids those who would go into a different field entirely.

[Haro!]

Some people want kenshinbebop's bro to get wedgies apparently. Dude go with fob's recommendation.

[Midoriko87]

My point, oh discouraging ones, is that the people who are actually interested in the subject will take the time to read the card, thereby potentially learning more than they knew before. They, in turn, would spread that knowledge. Some would ignore it, while others would retain the knowledge, and later repeat the cycle. By these means the information would lead to an over-all drop in ignorance, as people who may be interested would then gain accurate information.

What an idealistic mind you have, blackknight. All I will say is that the information is accurate... it is simply incomplete.

And besides, since sixth-graders are required to take the same classes anyway, those who do not understand the subject as well can use the additional information to cram for the inevitable test(s). In this manner they would be advanced to the stage when they can focus more singularly on the subjects of their choice. Therefore, the additional information aids those who would go into a different field entirely.

Confound you! What inevitable tests?! In what manner?! -_-; Do you mean that if they learn all there is to know about atoms in the sixth grade, they'll be prepared for it in high school (usually 11th Grade, here) or the General Chem in college/uni? Um, unless they study it everyday, it'll be forgotten by that time...and, of course, the extra studying will take away from the time needed to study for their current classes. If you're talking of 6th Grade tests, well, Fobb's model covers that. And, of course, there's the whole issue of Sixth Graders not being able to comprehend the information taught in General Chem/AP Chemistry and/or high school chemistry.

[blackknight]

As I recall from when I was in sixth grade, the model represented by Fobb's diagram, the Rutherford model, was introduced as the old and commonly accepted way of "viewing" the atom for a long time. Immediately after saying that, though, my teacher brought up a diagram of the Bohr model and went on to say that the Rutherford model was inaccurate, and that the Bohr model demonstrated the actual activity of the atom.

So yes, in my case and the case of everyone who learned sixth-grade science in my school, we were taught in no uncertain terms that the electrons did not stick to set orbits, but instead "jumped" based on the amount of energy they carried.

And yet you say this is high school level science? Strange. It seemed pretty basic to me at the time. I am willing to admit that up to that point, I believed in the stationary orbit idealism, but that was because I had never been taught differently. Thanks to what I learned in the sixth grade, I expanded my knowledge and thus know more than I did before that point. Have I found a practical use for that knowledge? No. I have devoted my studies toward a more biological aspect of science, but I am still grateful for knowledge gained. If nothing else, it has kept me amused for these few hours as I argue back and forth in a friendly manner with you. If you look at it that way, the practical use for that knowledge was a few hours of intellectually stimulating discussion.

EDIT: My apologies, I failed to address the point about the tests. I merely meant that if the subject was being taught in sixth grade, it stands to reason that the teacher will later have a written test to assess how much the students have learned on the subject, and the result of said test would contribute toward their science grade on their report card.

[Midoriko87]

No. I do not say it is high school level science. The wording in your post was confusing. Inevitable tests, I didn't know of what inevitable tests you were speaking of. Talk of "specific fields" and such brought to mind older kids/young adults.

Also, is that all you guys are supposed to have beef with, the movement of electrons? :unsure: Go figure...

...Just saw your edit. Wouldn't the teacher simply place the material he/she has taught on the test? It'd be silly to do otherwise. But, didn't realize you guys were only concerned with the electrons... That's not special information; it's taught, anywayz (like you said yourself).

[Tidusauron12]

^Well, as a 10th grader, I can honestly say... Chemistry is a *****. I'm not even taking AP, and I have to do hours of reading and studying just to get a (what they call) good introduction to how electrons move around the atom. It seriously takes me about 4 hours to complete an assignment each day... which is why I will never home school again. :lol:

They first thing they plastered into my brain is that atoms do not revolve around the nucleus like Earth around the Sun... but that they move around (more than likely) randomly in some 'electron cloud', and that sometimes, they gain or loose energy, jumping from cloud to cloud, etc. What I mean is, if I would've turned that pic that Fobb posted in 6th grade, I would've failed because that's not the model we used once I got out of 4th grade. All of this electron cloud sh*t came up.

I admit it doesn't really matter at all, but at school they teach you all the ****ing **** you'll never need to know. :lol: I'm a damn pianist! I could care less about how the **** an atom is composed! :crybaby: Freaking torture...

[Midoriko87]

Actually, I thought that was everyone's deal with the posted image: the spherical shells.

EDIT: Just noticed, I've been saying (or typing) "taught" instead of "thought." :lol: "Enuff is enough, but 'Enough' is TOO MUCH!" :lol:

[blackknight]

No. I do not say it is high school level science. The wording in your post was confusing. Inevitable tests, I didn't know of what inevitable tests you were speaking of. Talk of "specific fields" and such brought to mind older kids/young adults.

Also, is that all you guys are supposed to have beef with, the movement of electrons? :unsure: Go figure...

...Just saw your edit. Wouldn't the teacher simply place the material he/she has taught on the test? It'd be silly to do otherwise. But, didn't realize you guys were only concerned with the electrons... That's not special information; it's taught, anywayz (like you said yourself).

No, that wasn't the be-all and end-all of the entire grade. I was speaking of the small portion of the science class which was relevant to the topic at hand.

The referral to specific fields was for however many years down the road when the students would be able to start focusing their attentions more into the fields that interest them. I was not referring to the sixth graders, but rather that a broader knowledge base would allow the student to succeed up to the point where they can choose, rather than becoming a high-school drop-out. I am using a broad generalization in that example, and not using it to judge people as a whole. It is a worst-case scenario.

Tidusauron12, you say you have great difficulty with Chemistry, that your strength lies more in your musical ability. It is possible that you may (I do not know the situation, nor shall I ask) be able to get a music scholarship based upon your skill with the piano. I believe, however, that you must at least have a passing grade in the other main subjects in order to obtain said scholarship, and so you would continue to struggle to attain the higher goal. Myself, I would be struggling with English and History, which have always been my weakest subjects, while I would excel at the sciences. It is simply a matter of how the brain is wired, but if we wish to go further in life we must overcome our weaknesses. In order to overcome our weaknesses, we seek to acquire additional knowledge which will make it easier to understand.

This is what I'm getting at with my whole point. Knowledge is power, even if it is not immediately apparent. To succeed in life, we seek knowledge. Whether it is necessary to survive, or just something for extended conversation so that we may have some semblance of social interaction.

[Tidusauron12]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Actually, I thought that was everyone's deal with the posted image: the spherical shells.

That's the problem. Really, there's more than spherical shells. Since middle school we've been getting drilled on s-orbitals (shaped like spheres), p-orbitals (a pair of symmetric balloons), and then d and h orbitals. There's so much stuff...

Kenshin, make sure your little brother does a Hydrogen album. :lol:

[Caster13]

Chemistry was my least favorite subject in highschool. I couldn't get it at all.

[Kagura]

Chemistry can be a REAL B*tch. For anyone that wants to be a scientist, a veternarian, biologist, whatever you gotta know that sort of stuff. In my honest opinion, I'd go with the one blackknight suggested. Its not that I am sticking up for him just because he is my fiance', but simply because he is right. Also, it doesn't hurt to prepare a little early for what is ahead in high school! It gets so much harder!!