Honeypot Sites For, Rose Tinted, Nectar Sucking Bee Stinging Spectacles?

[IntenseHermit]

I had a conversation regarding the FBI using honeypot sites. Basically they make a website that masquerades as an uderaged porn sites. If you click on it your ip, and other electronic details e.c.t are sent to the FBI. I argued that this method was totally inefectual.




Originally Posted by Tenou
If (and I do mean if) the FBI are being responsible about this, then they are also taking note where the links are coming from. If it's not coming from a legit FBI referral, then it should be ignored because it's too easily abused.


Erm, maybe i'm missing something but isn't it really really easy to get around this FBI rickroll.

(1) You make a link of a child porn website and click on it. If its child porn you win.

(2) If the link you make and click on happens to be an FBI you get in NO trouble because you clicked on a link of the site that you made, rather than the original site itself. Therefore the refferal is not legitimate.

The whole point of the system is to make pedo's think twice about clicking on child porn sites as there's a risk of clicking onto a fed site.
However the Fed's use referalls to prevent the fact that some people might play pranks changing the url of the Fed site into a totaly innocent name (say msnbs.com/sports, or teletubies.com) and tricking someone into clicking the link and unfairly getting into trouble.

However this is a double edged sword and herein lies the flaw. Anytime someone wants to check child porn they can simply change the url of the child porn site before clicking it. If the website is a proper child porn site they are free to watch it. If it happens to be an FBI entrapment website, then they still do not get into trouble because they altered the URl making the refferal illegitimate.

Therefore a pedophile can access child porn a few metres from the FBI hoover headquarters without any fear whatsoever of being done in by the FBI rickroll.


The bottom line: If a pedo was to take the simple action of changing the url of a pedo site before visiting it, then the chances of being entrapped by the FBI is 0%. But more importantly, the foundation of this FBI tactic (which is to prevent people from checking child porn as there might be even a faint risk of getting rickrolled) is 100% neglible.
Should the FBI be focusing their billion dollar annual budget on better techniques for busting pedaphiles...or am I missing something?
Discuss.

[VidelCoolGirl]

Wait....what? Is this a thread to prove a point you may not have gotten to voice back in the other thread?

[IntenseHermit]

Yep, no one challenged my theory. I'm wandering wether my reasoning is sound if there is a legitimate reason why the FBI rickroll might work.

[Bernard_Monsha]

Silly Waga, you should have posted this in the original thread.

[VidelCoolGirl]

Anyway, I didn't read his last opinion in the last thread, so I have no idea what it was about initially. Anyway, as long as it stays away from being some kind of giant flame war battle thing, I'm fine.

[Suiko Eiji]

I had a conversation regarding the FBI using honeypot sites.

You know, when I saw the word 'honeypot', I thought I'd just been doing too much classwork but you really meant honeypot like I was thinking about.

Erm, maybe i'm missing something but isn't it really really easy to get around this FBI rickroll.

(1) You make a link of a child porn website and click on it. If its child porn you win.

(2) If the link you make and click on happens to be an FBI you get in NO trouble because you clicked on a link of the site that you made, rather than the original site itself. Therefore the refferal is not legitimate.

Wait, whut? Nr. 1 makes no sense to me. You don't wildly create some website and it just appears. You'd get DNS errors, not your sought-after Kinderporn. If you're guessing at it (basically manual searches using the URL field) how do you know that you didn't stumble into a honeypot? Nr. 2 continues on the same faulty premise, so you're either clicking to get an oh-so-sexy DNS error or run a blind-percentage-chance of ensnaring yourself.

The whole point of the system is to make pedo's think twice about clicking on child porn sites as there's a risk of clicking onto a fed site.
However the Fed's use referalls to prevent the fact that some people might play pranks changing the url of the Fed site into a totaly innocent name (say msnbs.com/sports, or teletubies.com) and tricking someone into clicking the link and unfairly getting into trouble.

How do you mean? You mean by something this ? loli loli get your childporn here! (http://www.secretservice.gov/) or do you mean something more "malicious" and using DNS poisoning to re-direct traffic from Kinderporn.net to, say, USSS? Or, I think you mean the other way around, taking a link that says MSN and routes to USSS honeypot?

However this is a double edged sword and herein lies the flaw. Anytime someone wants to check child porn they can simply change the url of the child porn site before clicking it. If the website is a proper child porn site they are free to watch it. If it happens to be an FBI entrapment website, then they still do not get into trouble because they altered the URl making the refferal illegitimate.

Again, whut? If your goal is to get Kinderporn, you need to follow the DNS to get there. The "FBI" (in actuality, Secret Service does the grunt work) is going to have those IPs staked out, not just by social engineering their own links, but monitoring traffic. If they've got a reasonable suspicion warrant, they can do it legally and no one but them and the host will know (and if the host refuses, there are other legal means of pursuit).

So, it's a catch-22; you find a link that looks interesting, but think it could be a honeypot, so you type it into the URL field yourself. Anyone monitoring that traffic is going to capture those packets and they'll move from there.

I think the only thing you hit on correctly is the thin border between enticement and entrapment, which is the very definition of what separates honeypots/honeynets from blatant entrapment. Any organization that looks at a honeypot solution has to weigh heavily the ability for it to be construed as entrapment as any of that will be thrown out in court.

Should the FBI be focusing their billion dollar annual budget on better techniques for busting pedaphiles...or am I missing something?
Discuss.

Yeah, I think you're missing out the basic network fundamentals of how TCP/IP exchanges work and how they affect honeypots.

Also, I think you're taking an overly simplistic look at the whole scenario. I would be absolutely amazed that the Feds were focusing these sorts of resources "only" on honeypots. I bet they're working with the NSA on all sorts of other legal tricks they can pull for enticement and hardening countermeasures so their own resources aren't vulnerable.

[VidelCoolGirl]

So like, everyone going to steal my song or what? I need to put copyright on that shiz. "loli loli get your childporn here!" Psh, miiiiiine.

[superplough]

That was awesome. I remember Alice had it as her sig for ages.

Speaking of which, your current sig is hilarious :lol:

[VidelCoolGirl]

Yes. Yes it was genius.

[goddessofanime]

Wait, that's Waga?

And why is he talking to the FBI about rickrolls? Is someone trying to tell us on AN something? Will Chris Hansen be joining us?

[Caster13]

Videl, I also love your new sig. I followed the quote, and you HAVE changed a lot.

And I hate to ask, but who is Chris Hansen?

[VidelCoolGirl]

Videl, I also love your new sig. I followed the quote, and you HAVE changed a lot.

And I hate to ask, but who is Chris Hansen?

Tell me about it. Thank you AnimeNation; for teaching me the importance of grammar, and how NOT to be a douche.

Chris Hansen is the guy who catches potential pedophiles on "Dateline NBC." He's known fairly well if you watch news and such. He's also been the butt of many jokes by SNL and South Park.

"Why don't you just take a seat...right there."

[Caster13]

I remember that episode. And all of the pedos ended up killing themselves.

If that were the case IRL, all we would have to do is tell Chris about 4chan.:lol:

And AN has helped me too. I don't constantly flame anymore, like I did when I first joined here.

[VidelCoolGirl]

I remember that episode. And all of the pedos ended up killing themselves.

If that were the case IRL, all we would have to do is tell Chris about 4chan.:lol:

And AN has helped me too. I don't constantly flame anymore, like I did when I first joined here.

He's annoying at times, but whatever catches potentials. I have my certain strifes with the show, but thats a whole nother' thread.

Hah, you don't flame because I GOT DA BANHAMMA! Haha! Made my way from simple RPG Mod to RULING YOU ALL WITH A ALPHA FIST.

[Caster13]

Actually, you're my favorite mod.

[VidelCoolGirl]

Actually, you're my favorite mod.
Oh. Well I assure you I wasn't phishing for compliments, but thanks. I was simply trying to assert my authority. Uh, keep up the good job daily poster.

Anyway, I was thinking about some of the loopholes in this. What if somebody was say at a local library? As far as I know, they don't monitor who uses it and who looks at what with pin numbers and such. Wouldn't a lot of the IP addresses be null? When I worked at a library, people looked at porn all the time, and I swear one guy was looking at Child Porn.

[Leader Desslock]

What I find interesting about this whole situation is how overblown and simplistic the response to it is. To listen to the critics, there's an openly accessible web page that anybody can simply browse to by accidently typing the "google.com" wrong. The moment your browser hits that link, FBI crews are standing by to knock down the door to your house, confiscate your technology, then lock you up in an undisclosed location without benefit of counsel until you sign the confession.

If that was the case, then it'd be thrown out of the first court it entered.

In reality, I should imagine these FBI Honeypots are rather deep, and a person's IP address doesn't get registered until after the user navigates through multiple "No, seriously, if you don't want to see child pornograpy, which we're warning you in advance is probably illegal in your area, you better not click the following link." pages. Complete with "please type in the number found in the distorted image in order to access the illegal content" security.

Why? Because that would help the FBI prove intent in court. If a person pushes past a number of security mechanisms to find a piece of verboten content (and since the FBI is running the site, they'd have it logged), then a judge is going to look a lot harsher at that than if a person simply got rickrolled.

In metaphoric terms, I don't think the FBI is going to bother with flies zipping past the honeypot or landing on the rim of the jar. I think they're only going to bother with the flies that don scuba gear, dive into the honey, then swim down to read what's written on the very bottom of the pot.

Even THEN, I don't think such activity would cause an FBI sting to roll out the door. I think it would simply be flagged for comparison against the IP addresses of known sex offenders or surveillance targets. If Pedobear is on a government watch list, and the government is waiting for him to slip up so that they can get a warrant issued - maybe this'd be enough for investigators to go to a judge and say, "Here's the evidence that shows that Pedobear is actively seeking child pornography, in violation of the terms of his parole. Can we get you to sign this warrant so that we can get a record of his web activity from his ISP?"

If merely browsing through an openly accessible page generated an FBI sting, the FBI would be so busy chasing web spiders that they'd never get any work done.

[Haro!]

Dammit Dess, why are you so logical? Remember the feds aren't as logical as you ^_^

[Tenou]

Thank you Dess. That's it in a nutshell... more or less.

IntenseHermit... Like most people, dirty old men looking for CP aren't internet savvy. They know enough to point and click and probably don't even know what redirecting is... these are the guys they're looking to catch with this.
The guys with the know how, the ones who are producing, they're being tracked by many bodies all over the world, including INTERPOL, and they're a little less... stringent in their methods.

[Bernard_Monsha]

Yep, no one challenged my theory. I'm wandering wether my reasoning is sound if there is a legitimate reason why the FBI rickroll might work.

Yes they did and shredded it. Your sock puppet fairs no better than you do Waga. I had better not see the other one post or it will extend to your original user name as well.

[Suiko Eiji]

In reality, I should imagine these FBI Honeypots are rather deep, and a person's IP address doesn't get registered until after the user navigates through multiple "No, seriously, if you don't want to see child pornograpy, which we're warning you in advance is probably illegal in your area, you better not click the following link." pages. Complete with "please type in the number found in the distorted image in order to access the illegal content" security.

[...]

In metaphoric terms, I don't think the FBI is going to bother with flies zipping past the honeypot or landing on the rim of the jar. I think they're only going to bother with the flies that don scuba gear, dive into the honey, then swim down to read what's written on the very bottom of the pot.


I'm not sure I hit on this with my post, but I probably should have - yes, a honeypot just isn't some gag link to rickroll someone with - it's a very elaborate design to ensnare people beyond the shadow of a doubt that they were willingly committing illegal activity.

Also keep in mind, rickrolling someone it basically saying, "Hey, check out this article I found" to be followed up by the best Internet meme (and 80s song ever) since AYBABTU. That's not honeypotting, that's spoofing. Honeypots have to be absolutely legitimate looking - if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ... - and most importantly, not present itself to be fake.


Anyway, I was thinking about some of the loopholes in this. What if somebody was say at a local library? As far as I know, they don't monitor who uses it and who looks at what with pin numbers and such. Wouldn't a lot of the IP addresses be null? When I worked at a library, people looked at porn all the time, and I swear one guy was looking at Child Porn

It's possible that, should a library or other public access point be used in the commission of the crime, they're going to have to enact CYA policies to show that they maintained proper controls over their equipment. This means that in the long run they might have to set their Internet-accessible equipment to static IPs and have people assigned terminals at the front desk. In the meantime, all you've got are the current network connections (which may or may not be static) and security cameras.

So like, everyone going to steal my song or what?

I merely used it under fair use; you can have it back.

[Mikosage]

Gah, I need to stop playing Tenchu so much and pay attention...ITH is Waga? Sheesh, I go on one all night Tenchu binge and find truths revealed behind my back whilst I sat in my darkened livingroom before the flickering glow of the television?

That does explain why ITH responded so strongly when I challenged Waga for the honor of being Goddessofanime's valentine....*scratches head*

I give up on you people...I'm going to bed! :P

[Caster13]

Uh, keep up the good job daily poster.

I wouldn't be posting so much, but my job is seasonal and it doesn't run during the winter. And there is a severe lack of jobs around me, so I can't even get a temporary one. The problem now is that business needs to pick up, because it's gotten warm. And boy do I need it to. I'M BORED OUT OF MY ****ING MIND!!!!@_@

[goddessofanime]

Gah, I need to stop playing Tenchu so much and pay attention...ITH is Waga? Sheesh, I go on one all night Tenchu binge and find truths revealed behind my back whilst I sat in my darkened livingroom before the flickering glow of the television?

That does explain why ITH responded so strongly when I challenged Waga for the honor of being Goddessofanime's valentine....*scratches head*

I give up on you people...I'm going to bed! :P



So that's why Waga hasn't been stalking me online.