Umm... it's baseball, so why is Congress involved?

[Leader Desslock]

I see that most news sites have headline articles about Roger Clemens being shot down in front of a congressional hearing on MLB steroid use, with talk about bringing him and others up on Federal purjury charges for his contradictory testimony, etc. I don't really follow baseball, so I have a question:

Why is Congress getting involved with Major League Baseball?

Why is this not simply an internal MLB matter? The Major League is not a government organization, nor is it subject to congressional oversight. So I'm honestly not sure why there's a congressional investigation over something that, by all rights, is none of Congress' concern. Why are taxpayer dollars being spent to ... do ... I don't know what they're even trying to do, actually.

It's a game. The game is played by employees of private organizations. The players have contracts. Steroid use is a violation of those contracts. So... why isn't this simply an employee issue for the affected teams? Or if it had to go to court/arbitration, then why isn't it simply a civil trial, like any other breach of contract case?

I seriously don't understand why Congress is getting involved on this one, and thought that maybe there's some "Oh, the MLB is actually a defense contractor" excuse to which I've never been privy.

Anyone know?

[emotoaster]

Congress believes the MLB will never do an "actual" investigation if left to them. Some how they think they will make these players talk. I'm also guessing that they want to help protect "America's Game" so they are putting it into their own hands. I hope Clemens gets caught and I hope he never is allowed to play again. If the MLB/Congress finds evidence and still allows him to play and go to the Hall, then Pete Rose should go in as well. Steroids>Gambling IMO. Oh and even if these players are caught they can always play the "it wasn't illegal back then so whatever" card. /end rant

[Animematt55]

I just heard about this yesterday. I dont care about Clemens, and Congress shouldnt waste their time

[Leader Desslock]

Congress believes the MLB will never do an "actual" investigation if left to them.
So...?

What business is it of Congress whether the MLB bothers to do an actual investigation or not? As I said, the MLB is not under congressional oversight. The public safety is not at issue. We're ultimately talking about a form of entertainment.

What I'm wondering is what is different about this situation that gives Congress the right to step in? Even if the MLB invited Congress to perform an investigation (did they?), why should any private organization be allowed to spend taxpayer money to perform an internal audit? What's different about the MLB?

There are lots of third party, private firms that do corporate audits. Why isn't the MLB using those? How does the MLB (or any private organization) get public time and resources to do their own housekeeping? How is that in the public interest at all? I don't mean "why do baseball fans find it interesting?", I mean, "How is the taxpayer interest served?"

I'm not trolling, I just really don't understand what's going on here.

Some how they think they will make these players talk. I hope Clemens gets caught and I hope he never is allowed to play again. If the MLB/Congress finds evidence and still allows him to play and go to the Hall, then Pete Rose should go in as well. Steroids>Gambling IMO. Oh and even if these players are caught they can always play the "it wasn't illegal back then so whatever" card. /end rant
I personally don't think any of that matters, nor is any of it relevant to the point I'm asking. I'm sure baseball fans might care, maybe. But I'm not asking about why baseball fans care about it.

Why is this a publicly-funded hearing and investigation, and not a simple civil matter?

If the MLB doesn't resolve it on their own, then... shouldn't the market be allowed to handle it? Baseball fans become disillusioned in the integrity of the sport, they pursue other pastimes, and the baseball industry suffers financial setback until they clean up their own act and rebuild credibility.

That's how it works for any other private organization, so why not MLB?

[emotoaster]

I agree that this is an MLB issue, so the MLB should handle it. But Congress, thinks with their infinite wisdom, they know what to do. Whether it is their place or not they have the power to do it.

Like I said before I think the only reason Congress is doing this is because they think the public (baseball fans) will like this and applaud them for doing the right thing.

It their duty to bring justice to the lawless after all! /sarcasm

Congress might be able to justify this by saying this kind of thing can have a major impact on not just the MLB economy but whole cities, with stadiums and such. Granted thats BS but if asked they could just pull out that card.

[Woooh]

If a business or entity does not have the ability to regulate their own organization, then Congress must institute and/or influence that business to do so.

Someone said this in response to the question on the CBSSPORTS forums. My knowledge of it is limited, but this might be the answer.

[Soluzar]

If a business or entity does not have the ability to regulate their own organization, then Congress must institute and/or influence that business to do so.
I'd be surprised if that principle was enshrined in American law. Here in Europe I pretty much expect to see exactly that kind of thing happen, but America, the great believers in the unregulated free market economy?

[Leader Desslock]

I agree that this is an MLB issue, so the MLB should handle it. But Congress, thinks with their infinite wisdom, they know what to do. Whether it is their place or not they have the power to do it.
Technically, I can't find any rationale for that statement. I don't believe that they DO have the power granted to them, actually.

The committee doing the investigation is the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. Their charter gives them the following jurisdiction:

• Federal civil service, including intergovernmental personnel; and the status of officers and employees of the United States, including their compensation, classification, and retirement;
• Municipal affairs of the District of Columbia in general (other than appropriations);
• Federal paperwork reduction;
• Government management and accounting measures generally;
• Holidays and celebrations;
• Overall economy, efficiency, and management of government operations and activities, including federal procurement;
• National archives;
• Population and demography generally, including the Census;
• Postal service generally, including transportation of the mails;
• Public information and records;
• Relationship of the federal government to the states and municipalities generally; and
• Reorganizations in the executive branch of the government.
I don't see how the Major League fits in there, I genuinely don't. Here's the full list of House Rules, if anyone's interested: http://www.rules.house.gov/ruleprec/110th.pdf

It their duty to bring justice to the lawless after all! /sarcasm
No, that's the Justice Department.

Is it illegal to use steroids? If so, then why isn't this a local police matter, just like any other illicit substance use? Congress doesn't perform an investigation to bust the local junkie, right?

Congress might be able to justify this by saying this kind of thing can have a major impact on not just the MLB economy but whole cities, with stadiums and such. Granted thats BS but if asked they could just pull out that card.
But that's still be outside the jurisdiction of the committee performing the investigation. Congress can't just "do what it wants", it can only do what its own rules allow it to do.


If a business or entity does not have the ability to regulate their own organization, then Congress must institute and/or influence that business to do so.
Only when that business is in some way related to the public interest. So if... say... meatpackers weren't properly regulating meat safety and people were getting sick, then Congress has a committee (the Committee on Agriculture) which has the jurisdiction to investigate that industry, to allow congress to enact more meaningful legislation to control that industry. If all the bus drivers and freight drivers in the country decide to go on strike, then the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure could get involved.

I can't find any rules that allow the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform to investigate simple contract violations in a privately owned entertaiment franchise.

Can anyone else? I've linked the House Rules.


Given how bad the economy is, why isn't there a public outcry about the waste of public resources on this investigation? Or is there an outcry, and I just haven't heard about it?

[DavenIII]

Given how bad the economy is, why isn't there a public outcry about the waste of public resources on this investigation? Or is there an outcry, and I just haven't heard about it?


Too many Baseball fans do care, there is a small percentage of people that don't like it, but not enough to cause a significant outcry, and most don't care one way or the other I would think.

[emotoaster]

Your points are very valid LD, but this is CONGRESS, who is really going to monitor them and tell them what to do. Yeah its in the Constitution. Yeah its what the whole 3 level government is designed for, but I really don't think anyone cares enough to say they CAN'T do this.

I agree 100% with you but I also still think this might be the only way for this to get done good or bad. Sure they should use our money better, but hasn't Congress always done this kind of thing to some extent?

[Leader Desslock]

Your points are very valid LD, but this is CONGRESS, who is really going to monitor them and tell them what to do.
That would be the Government Accountability Office (http://www.gao.gov/index.html), whose mission charter states that it exists "to support the Congress in meeting its constitutional responsibilities and to help improve the performance and ensure the accountability of the federal government for the benefit of the American people."

[KatayokuのTenshi]

Is it illegal to use steroids? If so, then why isn't this a local police matter, just like any other illicit substance use? Congress doesn't perform an investigation to bust the local junkie, right?

Maybe they want to be seen to do something positive... but they can't agree on what to do so they thought that they'd be a court this week.

...wait...

Team America: World Police. I know the film has nothing to do with this but the word...

Too many Baseball fans do care, there is a small percentage of people that don't like it, but not enough to cause a significant outcry, and most don't care one way or the other I would think.

It's not about liking it or not. It just doesn't make sense.

Also it’s illegal.

[emotoaster]

Well there you go. I'm still sure though that Congress can come up with some reason to justify this whole fiasco.

[Bernard_Monsha]

Anyone know?

Why to justify another raise for all their hard, competent, useful work of course.

[DavenIII]

It's not about liking it or not. It just doesn't make sense.

Also it’s illegal.


Yes you're right It doesn't make sense and it probably is illegal, can you do anything about it? can I? can anyone on these boards?

all we can do Is vote and hope that then next people we place In office won't do such ridiculous things right?

I suppose we could start petitions and such, but really what will it accomplish.

[Leader Desslock]

I just think it's strange, and I was wondering whether anyone could provide me with some info, if I was missing it.

I also think it's good for the public to know about governmental waste, so healthy discussion of the questionable legal status of this investigation is a good thing, I think.

I've just browsed through the beginning of Mitchell's report. About all I could find was a reference to the Commissioner of Baseball requesting the information, but I didn't find any sort of legal rationale for the investigation in the document. I'll finish browsing through it later, maybe.

[Ikari Warrior]

I just think it's strange, and I was wondering whether anyone could provide me with some info, if I was missing it.
This is what you get for using the dartboard method of election. What did I say about politics being too complicated? What does the american public do with complicated matters? Ignore them. Because they're boring. Politics is boring. Let's talk about baseball! (this doesn't apply to me, as I think baseball is boring, too)

Honestly Dess, you have me puzzled now. I thought congressional hearings were relegated to members of congress or the president or something ludicrous like that. It makes no logical sense that this isn't being handled in a proper court.

I seriously think that congress has stepped in because somehow, Baseball is America's pasttime, even though the rest of the world plays it, too (and is likely somewhat better).

[DavenIII]

Didn't the Comminsioner of Baseball (sorry not a fan don't know his name) Request "Help" from Congress.

I thought that was the whole reason the mitchell report started, perhaps if a Major Orginization requests help then Congress is allowed to step in for one reason or another?

[emotoaster]

I'll definitely have to bring this up in my next Government class. Wonder what the professor's take is.

[Leader Desslock]

Didn't the Comminsioner of Baseball (sorry not a fan don't know his name) Request "Help" from Congress.
Yes.

I thought that was the whole reason the mitchell report started, perhaps if and Major Orginization requests help then Congress is allowed to step in for one reason or another?
Nope. Congress only has the jurisdiction granted to it by law, and a particular House committee only has the juridiction granted it its particular committee.

While it's entirely possible for me (as a private citizen) to ask the legislature to step in and investigate the matter of pet owner responsibility (a potential health issue) when my neighbor's dog does his business on my lawn, that's really a civil matter between me and my neighbor. It's certainly outside the charter of the committee investigating the Baseball scandal, even if Senator Mitchell was my neighbor.

The purpose of a congressional investigation committee is to provide direct information with which congress can enact new, more effective laws. In the baseball case... what laws are they going to enact? The substances involved are already controlled. The legislature's responsibility ends there. The rest is a civil matter between the franchise owners (who lose business as baseball loses credibility in the eyes of its fans) and the players that broke their contracts. The players should be held liable for whatever damages are specified in their contract.


Why aren't the Republicans crying foul over this? Aren't they the party of smaller, less-intrusive government, self-appointed guardians of private enterprise and the American way? Why aren't they criticizing this intrusion of government into a private sector matter?

[Ikari Warrior]

Why aren't the Republicans crying foul over this? Aren't they the party of smaller, less-intrusive government, self-appointed guardians of private enterprise and the American way? Why aren't they criticizing this intrusion of government into a private sector matter?

Maybe this makes sense to everyone in DC. I live just outside DC in the suburbs, so I can't help you there, sorry.

[DavenIII]

I just think its a waste of taxpayer money and I also think they should have hundreds if not thousands of better things to do, but I know there's nothing I personally can do about it so I choose not to think about it, That is until something is being done about it, then I'll jump on board.

[HSaabedra]

Yes.

The purpose of a congressional investigation committee is to provide direct information with which congress can enact new, more effective laws. In the baseball case... what laws are they going to enact? The substances involved are already controlled. The legislature's responsibility ends there. The rest is a civil matter between the franchise owners (who lose business as baseball loses credibility in the eyes of its fans) and the players that broke their contracts. The players should be held liable for whatever damages are specified in their contract.

Why aren't the Republicans crying foul over this? Aren't they the party of smaller, less-intrusive government, self-appointed guardians of private enterprise and the American way? Why aren't they criticizing this intrusion of government into a private sector matter?

You would be correct as this is the textbook definition of the process, but Congress is investigating whether these players committed perjury and figuring out whether the report is factual to begin with.

It is impossible to enact more control than is exercised with these substances in question, yet the belief that more control will help is still there.


To address your point about the Repulicans crying foul...it isn't going to happen because Republicans do not believe in smaller government and less intrusion anymore. How else do you explain Republicans approving a bill to grant immunity against litigation to telecom providers for warrantless wiretapping?

[gh0zt]

It's a distraction.

[IntenseHermit]

I see that most news sites have headline articles about Roger Clemens being shot down in front of a congressional hearing on MLB steroid use, with talk about bringing him and others up on Federal purjury charges for his contradictory testimony, etc. I don't really follow baseball, so I have a question:

Why is Congress getting involved with Major League Baseball?


Some bull about moral obligation. They feel that the baseball drug controversy which is running rife is damaging to the youths, as they look on these stars [insert Clemens] as role models and could copy them. Normally they wouldn't waste their time on a review like this but they felt the timing of Clemens case was particularly important.
Edit: At least that was the line of explanation they took.

[Suiko Eiji]

I thought I remember hearing something about this having to do with Federal monopoly grants and taxes once, and Wiki seems to corroborate my memory.

Major League Baseball is mostly funded by private enterprises, but also partially funded directly by public taxes[citation needed]. MLB maintains a unique, controlling relationship over the sport, including most aspects of minor league baseball. This is due in large part to a 1922 U.S. Supreme Court ruling in Federal Baseball Club v. National League which held that baseball is not interstate commerce and therefore not subject to federal antitrust law despite baseball's own references to itself as an "industry" rather than a "sport." This ruling has been weakened only slightly in subsequent years.[1] [2]

Sauce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball)

It looks like a contradiction on Interstate commerce because it is. MLB operates in many of the fifty states and broadcasts to all of them (and occasionally worldwide). The structure of the organization is such that the offices of the MLB regulate every aspect of the business from the minor leagues up to the major leagues; even the American and National Leagues aren't independent anymore, so any rules of the game that are created now apply to both leagues. To call MLB "not interstate commerce", to me, is granting it specialized monopoly privileges.

Also, though a cite is needed, the idea that some public funding supports the organization (I believe they mean that public funding used to be used in the development and construction of stadiums) but if that money trail of taxation can be traced back to Federal funding (whether explicit or re-allocated), then that certainly falls within Congress' realm of investigatory powers since Congress has sole power to levy Federal taxes (and re-allocate State taxes, thanks FDR!). Any perceived corruption where those funds is enough reason for it to be permissible for Congress to interfere. Misappropriation of public funds (unless done by Congress) is a matter of public interest and considering that MLB is a national entity which doesn't operate in interstate commerce (/bs), there aren't state legislatures or courts that can pursue this matter.

So, in short, Congress is involved because:
MLB has been given a de facto monopoly status by SCOTUS and has yet to be challenged.
The possibility that this might involve money apprpriated from the Federal government, can put this hearing in Congress' jurisdiction.
Aside from the financial side, it is considered a matter of public interest.

The cynical side of me is also thinking this might be a little bit of wag the dog. Congress' approval ratings are in the toilet - about 20%. They're less popular than one of the least popular presidents in recent history. They can't decide on what to spend money on, work together, and are otherwise complete partisans. Hell, even within the parties they can't work together as the Democrats are starting to look like Rosa Luxembourg and the Republicans are starting to look like Ted Kennedy when Ted Stevens isn't out there proclaiming that the Internet isn't a truck, but rather a series of tubes.

BUT! America loves celebrities, long time. And, America doesn't look fondly on cheaters. If someone beats the system and doesn't get caught, we'll turn a blind eye but once you get caught - that's the end of it. And it looks like one of those guys was caught, though he protests the opposite, and Congress is coming at the request of the MLB to save the day.

Desslock, I think the problem is that you're referencing a document that is sorely out of date. It's not a new thing either; parts of the documentation have just slowly become obsolete and not updated because the requirements for change management approval are too stringent.

Clearly, 200 some years ago people were much, much smarter then. That picture of Washington crossing the Delaware in a boat? Nope, he did in hovercar. And he didn't have to do it on Christmas Eve to surprise the British - he had cloaking technology, obviously. But now, as we don't have these technologies, there's something clearly wrong with us and we can't take care of ourselves - so we need someone to do it for us. This world is too oppressive for me to deal with! Oh, Enlightened Majesties of the Federal Republic, I cede all sovereignty to you to solve my problems which I clearly cannot do on my own!

because Republicans do not believe in smaller government and less intrusion anymore.

Which makes Goldwater and Regan spin in their graves. And makes Suiko sad.

[Caine]

^correct me if I'm wrong, but all major sports leagues enjoy that same status.
I know there is talk of Schumer and Higgins challenging it if the Bills are on the move.


Speaking of the NFL, I'm surprised Dess didn't bring Specter into it yet.

[Sendo Takeshi]

A better question is: Why should anyone care? Steroids doesn't improve your game. You have to throw the ball, you have to hit the ball, and you still have to run the bases and play your position. So yeah, why care? It's all for entertainment. This topic has been done to death and I hope the media can STFU about it this season.

[Leader Desslock]

I thought I remember hearing something about this having to do with Federal monopoly grants and taxes once, and Wiki seems to corroborate my memory.
Interesting. Okay, that's what I was fishing for in this thread. I was unaware of this, and yeah, part of me DID wonder whether MLB was considered interstate commerce. And if not, why it wasn't.

Answer: Lobbyists.

Desslock, I think the problem is that you're referencing a document that is sorely out of date.
Sadly, I'm not: September 14, 2007. It's just that nobody in Congress actually follows their own book.

[Bradster]

To address your point about the Repulicans crying foul...it isn't going to happen because Republicans do not believe in smaller government and less intrusion anymore. How else do you explain Republicans approving a bill to grant immunity against litigation to telecom providers for warrantless wiretapping?

"I love my country but fear my government" was replaced by "If you've done nothing wrong you've got nothing to hide" pretty quickly.

And Reagan didn't shrink the government nearly as much as his worshippers misremember.

[gh0zt]

And Reagan didn't shrink the government nearly as much as his worshippers misremember.

He didn't shrink anything. He drastically increased the power of the DEA during his stay.

Also he sold weapons to Iran.

Oh yeah, and some involvement in CIA cocaine trafficking.

[emotoaster]

I think I brought up the stadiums...Like I said it isn't a big deal but I won't mind seeing Clemens burn for this. Its not like Congress has anything better to do.

[Sendo Takeshi]

I think I brought up the stadiums...Like I said it isn't a big deal but I won't mind seeing Clemens burn for this. Its not like Congress has anything better to do.

Why? Because he threw a few pitches some people could skillfully hit? You may as well throw the entire league in there too while you're at it. A good majority of the league has been on 'roids.

[Bradster]

I lived in Cinti when the Bengals were threatening to leave unless they got a new stadium, and our taxes were raised to build it. IIRC if attendance was below a certain level, the city had to give the team money to make up for all the empty seats.


Personally, I don't watch any sports so the only reason I'd care if the entire industry collapsed would be the resulting unemployment of the service-related workforce.

[Minima Moralia]

This controversy is a waste of taxpayers' money: just legalize the ****ing roids and be done with it. It'd make for more unpredictable and exciting matches and we can use the money saved to fund another invasion of the Middle East or something equally worthwhile.