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MaliceDR
November 1st, 2007, 10:05 AM
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-westboro1031,0,7191706.story?coll=bal_ta b01_layout

Remember the Westboro Baptist church? The group of homophobic @$$hats that picket the funerals of Iraq war vets waving anti-gay banners? They are now $11 million poorer.

The brokenhearted father of a Marine killed in Iraq won a long-shot legal fight today after a federal jury in Baltimore awarded him nearly $11 million in a verdict against members of a Kansas church who hoisted anti-gay placards at his son's Westminster funeral.

The jury's announcement 24 hours after deliberations first began was met with tears and hugs from the family and supporters of Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, whose March 2006 funeral was protested by members of the Westboro Baptist Church with signs including "Thank God for dead soldiers."

Snyder's father, Albert, won on every count of his complaint, as well as $2.9 million for compensatory damages and $8 million for punitive damages.

Over the past week, the civil trial in U.S. District Court in Baltimore turned into a constitutional debate over how far the First Amendment should extend to protect the most extreme forms of expression. The groundbreaking verdict is believed to be the first time the fundamental Christian church from Topeka that is composed mainly of family members has been successfully sued for its shock funeral protests.

One legal expert worried that the initial size of the compensatory judgment, which was awarded first, could be a setback for those who believe in broad free-speech protections.

"The award -- $2.9 million -- is an awful lot of money for compensatory damages," University of Maryland law professor Mark Graber said today. "This was in a public space. While the actions are reprehensible, the First Amendment protects a lot that's reprehensible."

U.S. District Judge Richard D. Bennett, who had sealed the church's financial documents, said from the bench that the compensatory damage award would already eclipse Westboro's assets.

A decision in the free speech case was closely watched after Westboro members criss-crossed the country in recent years, turning somber funerals of soldiers from Iraq and Afghanistan into attention-grabbing platforms to criticize gays as immoral and damned.

Carrying brightly colored signs with inflammatory messages at reportedly more than 30,000 protests, including hundreds of military funerals, members of the congregation say the nation is losing soldiers on the battlefield because the country has been too accepting of gays in every part of American society, including in the military.

Counter-protests often follow and groups like the Patriot Guard have cropped up to try to shield families from the church's controversial signs and songs.

Alarmed by Westboro protests, at least 22 states enacted or proposed laws to limit the rights of protesters at funerals. Only months after Matthew Snyder's death, Maryland passed a law prohibiting people from picketing within 100 feet of a funeral, memorial, burial or procession.

The courtroom fight came down to whether Westboro had a legal right to demonstrate at the March 2006 funeral of Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder or whether the protesters crossed the line because their message impugned the grieving family's reputation and unlawfully invaded the Snyders' privacy.

The Marine's father from York, Pa., sued the church and three of its members for intentionally invading his privacy because his deceased son did not have that right any longer. For the claim to be successful, the jury needed to conclude that the church's actions at the funeral -- and later, in a posting about Matthew Snyder on its Web site -- were "highly offensive to a reasonable person," according to the jury instructions.

Albert Snyder also claimed that the church's actions were an intentional infliction of emotional distress. Under the law, the five women and four women of the jury needed to find that the church's conduct was "intentional or reckless" to find for Snyder. Jury instructions also required that the conduct be "extreme and outrageous," leading to severe emotional distress.

"You must balance the defendants' expression of religious belief with another citizen's right to privacy," presiding judge Richard D. Bennett instructed jurors yesterday.

The weeklong trial brought together Snyder and his family and the progeny of Fred Phelps Sr., a retired attorney and founder of Westboro whose 71-member congregation is largely made up of his relatives. The suit names the church as defendants, as well as Phelps and his two daughters.

In the courtroom, the Phelps family dressed plainly. In testimony, they stood steadfast to their beliefs and did not apologize for their conduct.

Often overcome by emotion, Albert Snyder sat flanked by his attorneys. While the Westboro's attorney, Jonathan Katz, spoke, Snyder averted his eyes. But when the videos made of the protest at his son's funeral aired for the jury in closing arguments, he wept.

When called to the stand last week, the father railed against Westboro, saying that sight of the protest made him physically ill.

"They turned this funeral into a media circus, and they wanted to hurt my family," Snyder testified, according to the Associated Press. "They wanted their message heard, and they didn't care who they stepped over. My son should have been buried with dignity, not with a bunch of clowns outside."

Fred Phelps took the stand after Snyder and prompted a strong admonition from Bennett when the pastor said he had not considered whether children would see a sign carried by protesters with the words "Semper Fi Fags" and two stick figures that appeared to be engaged in sodomy, according to the AP.

Church members always insisted that their March 10, 2006, demonstration took place legally, 1,000 feet from St. John Roman Catholic Church where the funeral was held. In closing arguments, the two sides battled over the nature of the protest to determine if the speech was constitutionally protected.

Sean E. Summers, Snyder's attorney, pointed out that Westboro members personally targeted the family because they brought Marine-specific signs to their rally at the funeral and dredged up Snyder's marital history on their Web site in an essay, "The Burden of Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder."

But Katz argued that the protest was no different from the thousands of others taken up by Westboro. Nothing about their demonstration was so offensive or damaging, the defense attorney said, to rise to the level of a libelous attack on the family.

Past protests by Westboro have produced so much negative reaction that they routinely alert local police departments of their plans so police can provide additional security. The defendants staged another protest on Pratt Street near the U.S. District courthouse at lunchtime today before the verdict was announced.

What sometimes took a back seat in the federal free speech trial was the life and death of Lance Cpl. Matthew A. Snyder, a 2003 Westminster High School graduate. Synder, a victim of a vehicle accident in Anbar province in March 2006, had been in the war zone less than a month.

Snyder's sexual preference never became an issue at the trial. Church members said they did not target Snyder's funeral because they believed the Marine was gay.

Instead, they said they waved fire-and-brimstone placards -- "Thank God for IEDs" and "*** Troops" among others -- near the funeral motorcade to bring attention to their message.

Snyder testified that he never saw the content of the signs as he entered and left St. John's Roman Catholic Church on the day of his son's funeral. He glimpsed the signs for the first time during television news reports later that day. A Google search on the Internet weeks later led him to the church's Web site and the posting about Matthew Snyder.

Owned. Discuss.

Animematt55
November 1st, 2007, 10:14 AM
i say burn them all.

Vaikyuko
November 1st, 2007, 10:25 AM
I loathe them so, so much. It's nice that they finally got what was coming to them, but I still feel horribly bad for Snyder's family. No one should have to endure that.

On another note, someone should question whether they're an actual church or not; God is supposed to love everyone in every religion I've read about, but "thank God for dead soldiers?"...that's a bit harsh, and pretty horrible, especially since those soldiers were fighting for them.

Ariel Tsuki
November 1st, 2007, 10:31 AM
^They're not recognized by any other Christian organization or church, if that's what you mean. Even so, they are still a church none the less. I think they even got the tax exemption, IIRC.

They're disgusting, really. They make all Christian look really bad. But justice served. I believe in the freedom of speech but when you pull stuff like Phelps and his cult, that's crossing the line.

Bernard_Monsha
November 1st, 2007, 10:33 AM
They are of the Jack Chick vein of churchs. There is a theory that WBBC is actually an elaborate hoax/parody namely because membership is closed except to one or two extended families and the fact they do such OTT things.

Animematt55
November 1st, 2007, 10:36 AM
They are of the Jack Chick vein of churchs. There is a theory that WBBC is actually an elaborate hoax/parody namely because membership is closed except to one or two extended families and the fact they do such OTT things.

Well, isnt the whole church just family members?
They are basically a bunch of fundimentalist christians that are following what they believe is the true meaning of the bible

Ariel Tsuki
November 1st, 2007, 10:38 AM
They are of the Jack Chick vein of churchs. There is a theory that WBBC is actually an elaborate hoax/parody namely because membership is closed except to one or two extended families and the fact they do such OTT things.

As much as Jack Chick makes me headpalm and cry, I don't think he's as bad as Fred and his cult.

But if they're trolling, they pulled off the best trolling ever managed by a human in the last few years.

Animematt55
November 1st, 2007, 10:39 AM
As much as Jack Chick wants headpalm and cry, I don't think he's as bad as Fred and his cult.

But if they're trolling, they pulled off the best trolling ever managed by a human in the last few years.

Maybe they are the original /b/?

Leader Desslock
November 1st, 2007, 10:41 AM
While I normally balk at any curtailment of free speech, I believe it's justified in this case. The Westboro group's protests aren't really connected to the soldiers they're targeting, so... they're just creating a deliberately inflammatory situation to spread a message of intolerance. They're not trying to benefit from the media coverage of the funeral itself; they're trying to benefit from the additional media coverage caused by their own offensive actions.

The first amendment's freedom of expression clause was never meant to protect that. At best, I'd consider it a disturbance of the peace.

My right to freedom of expression does not supercede others' right to privacy. Even though the road outside of a convicted pedophile's home is public property, I can't sit outside that person's home with a megaphone and scream "BABY RAPIST! BABY RAPIST!" over and over at 2:00am. My right to free speech does not go that far. I can't organize a 9/11 protest at ground zero in NYC waving signs that say "Thank God For Dead Police And Firemen", just because I object to the idea that NYC Emergency Services hires homosexuals.*

I think this was a good decision, but I expect the amount of the award will be overturned and reduced significantly.

There is a theory that WBBC is actually an elaborate hoax/parody namely because membership is closed except to one or two extended families and the fact they do such OTT things.
You mean The Wisconson Buck and Bear Club? (http://www.wi-buck-bear.org/) I'd always suspected something was up with them... :unsure:


* Well, I can, but I'd promptly be massacred by about 10 million New Yorkers, while the police decided it was a good time for a coffee break. They wouldn't want to interfere with free speech, after all.

Bernard_Monsha
November 1st, 2007, 10:55 AM
As much as Jack Chick makes me headpalm and cry, I don't think he's as bad as Fred and his cult.

But if they're trolling, they pulled off the best trolling ever managed by a human in the last few years.

Oh, he is every bit as bad. Phelps seems to be acting out several Chick Tracts verbatum.

Fred Phelps used to be a civil rights lawyer who enjoyed stirring up trouble and the publicity it gained him. People in Topeka view him in the light that he does this to get in the newspaper not because of any conviction he holds. They have to live with the guy and are regurally targeted by him.

Holy Knight
November 1st, 2007, 11:30 AM
They got what was coming at them.

I'm one to wonder how they'll be able to pay 8 M$ since their assets have been depleted. Then again, I don't think they'll ever be able to.

Evil_Koala
November 1st, 2007, 02:14 PM
Lulz owned.

SlackerDude
November 1st, 2007, 02:28 PM
Mmmm ... Looks like Albert won't have to work another hour of his life.

animeotaku99
November 1st, 2007, 03:29 PM
They've been here a few times once for a funeral and one time before they started the whole protesting at Vets funerals when they picketed the United Way in our area because they puled donations from the Boyscouts for denial of gays into their ranks

Samurai Drifter
November 1st, 2007, 03:42 PM
They are of the Jack Chick vein of churchs. There is a theory that WBBC is actually an elaborate hoax/parody namely because membership is closed except to one or two extended families and the fact they do such OTT things.
Even Jack Chick's not as bad as Westboro.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear of this, though I'm surprised that no one's taken shots at them yet.

Animematt55
November 1st, 2007, 03:46 PM
Even Jack Chick's not as bad as Westboro.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear of this, though I'm surprised that no one's taken shots at them yet.

What kind of shots? legal shots? or the fun shots?

animeotaku99
November 1st, 2007, 03:52 PM
Even Jack Chick's not as bad as Westboro.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear of this, though I'm surprised that no one's taken shots at them yet.

one lady ran over some of them, just injuring them sadly, when they verbally attacked her. she got off for "temporary insanity" and I saw a video were some kids throw water bottles at a group, they were smart enough to block their plate too

Samurai Drifter
November 1st, 2007, 03:52 PM
I should have specified. I'm surprised that no one's tried to blow their brains out with a shotgun at one of their moronic "demonstrations."

Bernard_Monsha
November 1st, 2007, 04:05 PM
Even Jack Chick's not as bad as Westboro.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear of this, though I'm surprised that no one's taken shots at them yet.

He would like that, he makes his money sueing people it backfired this time. I am starting to believe what the Topeka natives say. That he has this set up as a racket for himself to boost his ego and set up some lawsuits he can win for cash.

Animematt55
November 1st, 2007, 04:29 PM
I should have specified. I'm surprised that no one's tried to blow their brains out with a shotgun at one of their moronic "demonstrations."

if they could get away with it. I am sure someone would. I may be a gun owner, but I am not violent at all, and only see such things as a last resort.

But like my brother said, some lady has run them ove,r and some guys threw bottles at them

Animematt55
November 1st, 2007, 05:26 PM
^ might want to delete that Ken
ALthough I do agree with you

Kenpachi
November 1st, 2007, 05:56 PM
^advice taken

seriously, thats just low beyond low. but just a lawsuit!?!? its a funeral full of MARINES, its not that hard to take these facist f***ers out.

Rawshark
November 1st, 2007, 06:42 PM
they hide under free speech for that. that is vile. the worst part is that this lawsuit isn't going to stop them.

Kenpachi
November 1st, 2007, 06:50 PM
whats even more wrong is Muslims in this country supporting the terrorists and nobody can do anything about that because of free speech. lets face it, people in the government dont control the laws in this country, lawyers do.

and im also sick of everything i buy having spanish on it. why is this? its because of liberal politicians.

Caine
November 1st, 2007, 06:53 PM
now I'm intereted in seeing what you deleted, Ken
I'm guessing it was simliar to my idea: it would be no serious problem if the 21 gun salute went a little low one of these days...

These people are worse than Chick because Chick has an amazingly high entertainment value.

One of them was on a local radio program today. The hosts referred to her as "lunatic" and when serious callers, including a vet, got angry, they said what i beleive is correct: you can't debate these lunatics; the best you can do is laugh at their stupidity.

Animematt55
November 1st, 2007, 07:17 PM
and im also sick of everything i buy having spanish on it. why is this? its because of liberal politicians.

ME TOO!!
What country am I in? Mexico?

I am all for defending all of the constitutional rights....But this is hate speech. They through out Hate speech, then hide behind lawyers.

Caine
November 1st, 2007, 07:20 PM
whats even more wrong is Muslims in this country supporting the terrorists and nobody can do anything about that because of free speech. lets face it, people in the government dont control the laws in this country, lawyers do.

and im also sick of everything i buy having spanish on it. why is this? its because of liberal politicians.

let's not bring religion/race and politics into this.
seriously, that'll probably derail this into a flamewar. Wesboro Baptist church is a fair target because membership is limited to a very few and they seek publicity.

Samurai Drifter
November 1st, 2007, 10:09 PM
whats even more wrong is Muslims in this country supporting the terrorists and nobody can do anything about that because of free speech. lets face it, people in the government dont control the laws in this country, lawyers do.
Please. Our current presidential administration is far more dangerous to this country than any foreign terrorists.

Leader Desslock
November 1st, 2007, 10:26 PM
Even Jack Chick's not as bad as Westboro.
I think that's because Chick's always been a bit reclusive. If Jack Chick was more charismatic and outgoing, he'd probably be doing the same things.

Ikari Warrior
November 2nd, 2007, 07:43 AM
I'd heard about this the day this thread was posted, and to everyone who says that Westboro was "owned" I'm afraid that's not true.

One member of the church came out of court, and was smiling, saying that it was an acceptable loss, and they'd continue to protest at other funerals*.

They may have lost the court case, but they are by no means "owned." Not until one of their church is killed, and people protest at THEIR funeral, and urinate on the grave. THEN they'll be owned.

*according to what I'd heard on the radio.

Animematt55
November 2nd, 2007, 08:23 AM
^ They are just arrogant people.
They may all have a lot of money at their disposal, but 11 million is still a lot.
They usually can't go 5 minutes without preaching anyways.
But when one of them does die, I will be there, with a full bladder.

MaliceDR
November 2nd, 2007, 08:50 AM
^ They are just arrogant people.
They may all have a lot of money at their disposal, but 11 million is still a lot.
They usually can't go 5 minutes without preaching anyways.
But when one of them does die, I will be there, with a full bladder.
Neg. Do it while they're in the process of dying. (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=208215)

Caine
November 2nd, 2007, 07:23 PM
See, I think its classless to protest at the first funeral. Show up to the first one and offer your condolences, and act very sympathetic. If they continue to act like dicks, then urinate on the graves. That way, you have granted them every opportunity to act civililized before beating them at their own game.