Who would you trust to properly teach a student algebra?

[musashi1600]

A middle school teacher, or a structural engineer?

[Samurai Drifter]

Structural engineer.

[DazzleKitty]

I voted middle school teacher because I think they'd be able to make it more understandable for a student since they have experiences in working with them.

[Samurai Drifter]

The structural engineer, on the other hand, would definitely have a better grasp of the subject matter, which is why I voted for them. Middle school teachers may have more experience, but ability to teach varies from person to person, regardless of profession.

[DysPerDis]

The teacher, most likely. Just because you're good at something doesn't mean you can explain it to other people.

[tenshi_a]

Depends on whether the engineer is any good at teaching and how much trouble the student is.

Engineers generally need to teach others things in order to work with them, at least, if they ever work in teams or whatever... but some just aren't good at getting things across, and some students aren't very receptive...

[Leader Desslock]

I'd take the kid on a trip to see Mr. Whoopee: The Man With All The Answers. The 3DBB would be perfect for this sort of thing.

[Illusions-chan]

Middle school teacher.

Just like DysPerDis said, just because you are an expert and excel in a certain field, it doesn't mean that you are also articulate enough to explain it to others, especially students.

A teacher, hopefully, excels in their subject area and also is able to articulate in a way that students understand the concepts.

[Alice Catherine]

Mr. Davis.


Best. Teacher. Evar.

[Tenou]

Provided that the teacher is a math teacher, the teacher is better qualified to teach. Not only will that math teacher have a degree in math, the Education degree is comprised of child psychology courses and the like. The teacher knows how to teach and should have more than a basic understanding of principles.
Now true, just because you have a degree doesn't mean that you got anything from it. But same goes for a structural engineer.

[Delta-Pheonix]

In my experience Math teachers can't teach.

[Old Ape Face]

Depending on the person, I would choose both. Unless the Structural Enginere is someone who insists that everyone knows how to do it, and you can't posibly not figure it out as quickly as he can.

[Meson]

I have one question: what level algebra? Basic? Linear? Advanced? Theory?

[Caine]

Depends. For instance, my teachers in middle school were good at teaching, my current teacher is not, though he knows more. On the other hand, not all middls school teachers are good, and there may be structural engineers who have a gift for teaching.

[Hajime Saitou]

My vote goes to the individual that can actually teach, assuming both people know the material. I'm surprised at all of the people just assuming that since someone is employed as a teacher that they can...actually teach. I mean, that would make sense, but have any of you actually gone through school? I had a few great teachers, but the majority were lifeless drones that had the passion of a sloth and the teaching ability of...something that sucks at teaching. Ever hear of tenure? It works wonders on motivation.

So yeah, my vote goes to the individual that can actually teach. Not the one that is called a teacher, who may very well be bad at teaching.

[Hajime Saitou]

I try.

By the way, my vote goes to the engineer just to spite the teacher crowd. :lol:

I have one question: what level algebra? Basic? Linear? Advanced? Theory?

Well, one of the options is a middle school teacher. That makes it easier to guess since the OP didn't specify. I really doubt it would be linear or theory. Basic and advanced most likely have different terms, so I'm not sure what you meant there. I'm guessing by basic you meant elementary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_algebra) algebra? At least that's what I know it as.

[Alice Catherine]

Linear algebra makes me want to shoot myself in the face IMO.

That smart *** Kyuu could probably teach all of them though.

[CrossboneGundam]

I'm bothered by the fact that nobody's bothered by the fact that there's no explanation of this poll.

Seriously, where'd this even come from?

[Holy Knight]

My vote goes to the individual that can actually teach, assuming both people know the material. I'm surprised at all of the people just assuming that since someone is employed as a teacher that they can...actually teach. I mean, that would make sense, but have any of you actually gone through school? I had a few great teachers, but the majority were lifeless drones that had the passion of a sloth and the teaching ability of...something that sucks at teaching. Ever hear of tenure? It works wonders on motivation.

So yeah, my vote goes to the individual that can actually teach. Not the one that is called a teacher, who may very well be bad at teaching.

This sums up pretty much what I was about to say.

Then again, if we're talking about elementary algebra, neither of these individuals should have any difficulty in teaching the student what he needs to know.

I try.

By the way, my vote goes to the engineer just to spite the teacher crowd. :lol:

:thumbsup:

I'm bothered by the fact that nobody's bothered by the fact that there's no explanation of this poll.

Seriously, where'd this even come from?

I was thinking the same thing.

OP, care for any clarification?

[musashi1600]

I'm bothered by the fact that nobody's bothered by the fact that there's no explanation of this poll.

Seriously, where'd this even come from?

I was thinking the same thing.

OP, care for any clarification?

Come back in about a week (after this thread has run its course) and I'll explain myself. In the meantime, I'll be reading what people have to say about the question. :naughty:

[Zash]

They wouldn't be teachers if they didn't know how to teach. Obviously their personalities aren't in question here, all we're looking at here is who is more qualified to do the job.

[Tenou]

A structural engineer isn't qualified to teach. Not only do they not have that little paper that qualifies them (not that having a piece of paper means you can, it's just a requirement) but the math that engineers do... has nothing to do with middle school math. I've friends who've done civil engineering and I was a RA for petroleum engineering professor (not that I picked up a whole lot from that but): when I was transcribing the equations were nothing like you'd see in Jr. high or even high school.
It's easy to say, well, the structural engineer can solve complex equations... but does she remember how to do the simple things?

[Hajime Saitou]

They wouldn't be teachers if they didn't know how to teach.

-_-;

Yeah, that's how it's supposed to work, in theory. In the real world, it doesn't work like that. There are plenty of teachers that do not know how to teach. Beyond that, there are plenty of teachers who are either too old or far too burned out to effectively teach anymore. If you want to say that you need to be able to teach to get that little piece of paper that Tenou was talking about, I might be inclined to agree, but even then, just because someone is in a given profession doesn't mean that they're good at it. They could have barely gotten past the required test/internship/program/degree/etc.

Obviously their personalities aren't in question here, all we're looking at here is who is more qualified to do the job.

Personality plays a very important role in teaching. A very, very important role. You're obviously not looking at the big picture here in favor of giving generalizations.

A structural engineer isn't qualified to teach.

Legally maybe, but beyond that we have no way of knowing. Like you said, they don't have that piece of paper, but that's it. Besides engineers, there are people in all kinds of professions, or even with no profession at all, that are more than capable of connecting with students and knowledgable enough about middle school algebra to be able to teach more effectively than some teachers out there.

It's easy to say, well, the structural engineer can solve complex equations... but does she remember how to do the simple things?

2x>18000
x>9000

:shifty:

This is not rocket science. This is middle school algebra. In fact, there are probably qualified teachers in the class that are better than the employed teacher. They would be the students that are doing well in the class. They have the perspective of a student which would help them better understand where a student may get stuck and why, and it would be fresh in their mind as to how they mastered that equation/problem.

Saying that someone can teach just because they're a teacher is overlooking a lot of things, including personality, no matter how weird that sounds because that's just the way it works in actual practice. A structural engineer may very well be able to teach better than someone that's employed to do so. Either way, we have no way of knowing who is better at what because we don't have any information. Just blindly picking based on profession will result in a generalization and that really isn't a good way to make a choice.

Since we don't have any more information, the OP is purposely being cryptic, and the poll has flaws, the best thing we can do is analyze the situation. Given what we have, there shouldn't be any serious votes on the poll.

[Tenou]

Personality plays a very important role in teaching. A very, very important role. You're obviously not looking at the big picture here in favor of giving generalizations.


Personality was not specified. My interpretation being everything equal, the teacher qualified in hir area (which is teaching, by the by, not math, math is the speciality) and the structural engineer in hir area (being engineering, and bridges, buildings, what have you, being the speciality).
Personality doesn't come into play. If the op had said, 'would you take a highly trained and highly successful (success being measured in student's comprehension) teacher with little to no math skills over a grumpy old engineer who spends more time talking about the good old days than actually doing any work' then we could start debating over personality.
But since the op didn't specify and all we can do is speculate, then it doesn't qualify. I'm not going to sit here and endlessly debate the unknown personality of either, because it would be ideal to have a personable engineer with the ability to teach become a math teacher over the 59 year old, burn out teacher who no longer cares because they're retiring soon. When it's not specified, everything is equal.


Legally maybe, but beyond that we have no way of knowing. Like you said, they don't have that piece of paper, but that's it. Besides engineers, there are people in all kinds of professions, or even with no profession at all, that are more than capable of connecting with students and knowledgable enough about middle school algebra to be able to teach more effectively than some teachers out there.
...
Saying that someone can teach just because they're a teacher is overlooking a lot of things, including personality, no matter how weird that sounds because that's just the way it works in actual practice. A structural engineer may very well be able to teach better than someone that's employed to do so. Either way, we have no way of knowing who is better at what because we don't have any information. Just blindly picking based on profession will result in a generalization and that really isn't a good way to make a choice.


... I don't think a lot of people understand the amount of work it takes to become a teacher in Canada and the US. A Bachelor of Education, this isn't some needless requirement. It is 2 years (with regular upgrading required) which provides you with insight to child psychology, gender issues, learning abilities, learning disabilities, different learning methods, different teaching methods, how to identify learning difficulties, how to identify children with home problems, etc., etc., etc..

Being a teacher isn't standing up in front of a classroom and making sure that homework is completed. It's figuring out which student is having problems and how to fix it. It making sure that you can teach to a broad spectrum of learning styles. It's making sure that everyone is able to comprehend, not just a few. It's noticing when a student comes in with bruises. Is an engineer going to be able to do all of this intuitively with out any education or training? Maybe, maybe not. But guess who I'm going to go with.

Which brings another point. Are we assuming that this engineer would be teaching in a public school, private school, or they are home schooling one or two children. That makes a big difference. But, again, no point in blind speculation and then trying to debate it.



This is not rocket science. This is middle school algebra. In fact, there are probably qualified teachers in the class that are better than the employed teacher. They would be the students that are doing well in the class. They have the perspective of a student which would help them better understand where a student may get stuck and why, and it would be fresh in their mind as to how they mastered that equation/problem.


They're called peer tutors. There's a reason they're not the teacher. That's also a large part of the reasoning behind group work.


Since we don't have any more information, the OP is purposely being cryptic, and the poll has flaws, the best thing we can do is analyze the situation. Given what we have, there shouldn't be any serious votes on the poll.
Damn it. You mean that that poll is meaningless? That I wasted my time voting? Oh, for shame!

[kenshinbebop]

Depends. I've had some ****** math teachers. This years one is GRADE A though. He's awesome. I think it's just female math teachers that suck...

[Smith]

If I could, I would have the student meet both, and if possible, have one tutoring session with both, then choose which is preferred. Otherwise, more information is needed.

[goddessofanime]

Neither because I seriously can't understand alegbra to the point that not even a tutor in college could save me.

[Hajime Saitou]

Personality was not specified.

It's still a piece of the puzzle. That's why I brought it up.

My interpretation being everything equal

That was not specified. :P

I kid. That's certainly one way to look at it. My interpretation is to approach the situation from as many angles as you can(think of) while avoiding generalizations and more or less discarding what should be. You can interpret this as everything being equal, but what does that really mean? For example:

the teacher qualified in hir area (which is teaching, by the by, not math, math is the speciality) and the structural engineer in hir area (being engineering, and bridges, buildings, what have you, being the speciality).

Can't someone be qualified in more than one area? Just because they're qualified in their own field doesn't mean that's all they can do. You say that everything is equal in this situation, so does that mean the engineer is just as skilled at teaching as the teacher, and the teacher is just as skilled at engineering as the engineer? Do they both have the same technical knowledge and education in both fields? If they don't, it's not equal.

I don't suppose you could clarify what your definition of everything includes in this situation, and how those things are equal?

Personality doesn't come into play. If the op had said, 'would you take a highly trained and highly successful (success being measured in student's comprehension) teacher with little to no math skills over a grumpy old engineer who spends more time talking about the good old days than actually doing any work' then we could start debating over personality.

I don't see what's wrong with mentioning the affect that personality has on an individual's ability to teach. If not in delivering the message, then in the students desire to listen.

But since the op didn't specify and all we can do is speculate, then it doesn't qualify.

The same could be said about everything, including what you have said, and then we wouldn't have anything to talk about. Technical knowledge, formal education, experience, etc. If you are going to toss around ideas about some things, you should toss around ideas about all things. Personality is just as much a part of this as a degree or a profession.

I'm not going to sit here and endlessly debate the unknown personality of either, because it would be ideal to have a personable engineer with the ability to teach become a math teacher over the 59 year old, burn out teacher who no longer cares because they're retiring soon. When it's not specified, everything is equal.

I don't look at the discussion of personality as a debate, I look at it as considering all of the possibilities. Why does it have to be equal, and as I said earlier in this post, I get the feeling that your definition of everything does not actually cover everything.

What actually happens in the real world is much more important than what should be. This is a hypothetical situation in which we have no information beyond what choices we can select. I'd prefer to consider each variable and do a little bit of simulation using real world examples instead of academic examples. Using real examples and possible differences would provide a better answer than "The teacher because he can teach," (he said he, so I'm running with it) which should really read, "Well, he's called a teacher so I guess that means that not only can he teach, but he can do so better than the engineer even though there is no way to know that given the information available."

I apologize if that first quote is off. I wen't to go actually quote it, but...:P

The teacher may very well be a former engineer that's still better than the one actually employed as an engineer, and the engineer might be a former teacher that's still better than the one actually employed as a teacher. :lol: It's something to consider and gives more ways to think about the painfully vague question.

... I don't think a lot of people understand the amount of work it takes to become a teacher in Canada and the US.

Everything you said here is true, but none of it matters in actual practice. If the teacher is a hack, the teacher is a hack. If the engineer is a hack, the engineer is a hack. It doesn't matter how much education and training they have gone through, if they don't produce, that's all that matters, and I get the feeling that's what the OP wanted a discussion on. You gave very good examples of an ideal teacher, but once again in practice, they are not all like that.

Which brings another point. Are we assuming that this engineer would be teaching in a public school, private school, or they are home schooling one or two children. That makes a big difference. But, again, no point in blind speculation and then trying to debate it.

Yes, that would make a difference. Blind speculation is different from considering as many reasonable possibilities as you can. Sure, there's a lot of them, but I'd prefer not to ignore them.


They're called peer tutors. There's a reason they're not the teacher. That's also a large part of the reasoning behind group work.

Once again this is middle school algebra. A student could learn this perfectly all on their own just from a book. If you take someone that is knowledgable on the subject that also has a student's perspective and give them the task of teaching others, that's a good start. But, they could have no social skills whatsoever, which would pretty much ruin that idea. That's still something to consider. In the event that the student is capable of teaching and knows the subject perfectly, and the teacher knows the subject perfectly yet is completely out touch with the rest of the class, the student would be a better teacher.

The reason they're not the teacher is because they don't have a degree, yet, should they choose to pursue one. It doesn't mean they can't actually outperform the one employed as the teacher. Students are capable of not only learning the material on their own, but teaching it to fellow students.

Damn it. You mean that that poll is meaningless? That I wasted my time voting? Oh, for shame!

It wasn't a waste of time. Are you having fun? I hope so, because I am. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't fun and I hope you feel the same way. Whatever evil scheme the OP has planned for us in the end, I'm sure we're providing entertainment along the way. :P

[Midoriko87]

Once again this is middle school algebra. A student could learn this perfectly all on their own just from a book.

So, we meet again, CCS Guy!! :angry: "A student could learn this perfectly all on their own just from a book," eh?! Does your treachery know no bounds?!! :lol: Question: What would you think if I were to take that sentence and replace "middle school algebra" with, Oh, I dunno, "high school Advanced Placement Calculus"?

Anywho, I, Meself, would opt for the teacher... not knowing anything of the teacher/engineer's personality or psychological well-being (hint hint: anitsocial personality disorder and the like). Fact is, teachers obtained a degree (more likely than not from an accredited teaching program) to teach. I mean, it seems to me like some of you folks view teaching as some sort of inborn trait, either you have it or you don't. It's a skill which can be taught, and to be a teacher means that one has been taught. Whether or not a teacher applies his/her training is another issue entirely. Who knows? Maybe (definitely) there are those persons (teachers/Midoriko87) out there who just plain hate children/adolescents and could give two hoots about their schoolin' (and whatnot)... I earnestly believe, however, that these persons ('cept Midoriko87) could successfully teach if they so desired.

Oh, a thorough understanding of subject matter is also key. Can't teach what you don't know.

Five bucks, wait, thirty-five cents says OP is trying to get us to do his (or somebody else's) homework. Got an Ol' Debate, comin' up, eh OP?!! Can't support your claims yourself, huh? :lol: Aw, you know I'm just messin' with ya (Not Really).

[The Million Dollar Prons]

I was taught by a middle school teacher.

and I still can't do algebra.

Give me anything but a middle school teacher plx.

[Hajime Saitou]

So, we meet again, CCS Guy!! :angry:

Here we go again, having to insert those font tags every time I want to break up your quote. :lol: *rolls up sleeves*

"A student could learn this perfectly all on their own just from a book," eh?! Does your treachery know no bounds?!! :lol:

No. Absolutely none whatsoever. :P

Question: What would you think if I were to take that sentence and replace "middle school algebra" with, Oh, I dunno, "high school Advanced Placement Calculus"?

I would think 2 things.

1. It's not AP calculus, it's middle school algebra.

2. <- Actually did that.












3. That's right, there's actually 3 things. Now that I've caught you off guard:

No U.

Really, anything that can be taught in middle or high school can be self-taught. The teacher in this situation can't just...make stuff up. Algebra is algebra. They can't change the laws and how equations work. It's all wrapped up in a nice neat package called a textbook. The teacher is there to help the process flow more smoothly.

Whether or not a teacher applies his/her training is another issue entirely.

Which can lead to pages and pages of text, which is my idea of fun. Unless I have to quote you. That's called masochism. :lol:

While I have time for an edit, if you guys just want to say that a teacher should be able to teach, I won't argue. Yes, they should be able to. Tenou listed some good things that teachers should be able to do.

The thing is, the question doesn't ask who should be more capable. It just asks, vaguely, who would you trust to do it. Since we're not limited by anything, the answer should obviously be the one who is actually more qualified(or both). Since we don't know which one is actually more qualified, like I said before, there's no way for anyone to make a meaningful vote given the options in the poll. Voting by who should be more qualified is providing an answer for a completely different poll.

[Midoriko87]

Really, anything that can be taught in middle or high school can be self-taught. The teacher in this situation can't just...make stuff up. Algebra is algebra. They can't change the laws and how equations work. It's all wrapped up in a nice neat package called a textbook. The teacher is there to help the process flow more smoothly.

So, my suspicions were indeed correct, you are, in fact, the Hell Spawn! :angry: Wrong! Anything that can be taught in middle or high school cannot be self-taught!! Reading from a book may be sufficient for certain students, but many (probably the majority) would surely fail if a book (maybe a CD or two) and themselves were all they had to rely on. Maybe the jargon-filled textbook isn't understandable to some, maybe the book (well, not maybe) caters to only one type of learning style, maybe the methods used to solve problems in textbooks are too complicated for most students. If the student can overcome all this and is able to "make sense" of the textbook, does he/she have what it take to retain this information? When to study? How to study?

Which can lead to pages and pages of text, which is my idea of fun. Unless I have to quote you. That's called masochism. :lol:Hmm, guess I've found a means of battling the Devil, Century Gothic!!

[Hajime Saitou]

So, my suspicions were indeed correct, you are, in fact, the Hell Spawn!

Nope. I'm just the CCS guy. :naughty:

:angry: Wrong! Anything that can be taught in middle or high school cannot be self-taught!! Reading from a book may be sufficient for certain students, but many (probably the majority) would surely fail if a book (maybe a CD or two) and themselves were all they had to rely on.

What is this weaksauce? To leave such an obvious opening. I'm disappointed in you Midoriko. Which one is it? It cannot be self-taught, or not everyone can be self-taught. You contradicted yourself there. I never said that everyone can do it either. ;)

Maybe the jargon-filled textbook isn't understandable to some, maybe the book (well, not maybe) caters to only one type of learning style, maybe the methods used to solve problems in textbooks are too complicated for most students.

I totally agree. :)

If the student can overcome all this and is able to "make sense" of the textbook, does he/she have what it take to retain this information?

Who knows?

When to study?

Who knows?

How to study?

Who knows?

Hmm, guess I've found a means of battling the Devil, Century Gothic!!

You fire off fonts like you're trying to kill the borg. :lol:

[Midoriko87]

What is this weaksauce? To leave such an obvious opening. I'm disappointed in you Midoriko. Which one is it? It cannot be self-taught, or not everyone can be self-taught. You contradicted yourself there. I never said that everyone can do it either. ;)

*Pokes CCS Guy in the chest* I don't like you, got that?!! :angry: Now, maybe I said some contradictory things (of no real signifcance), but you read this:

"Once again this is middle school algebra. A student could learn this perfectly all on their own just from a book."

Now, maybe that "a student" isn't plural, but look at that context. We all know what you're getting at, CCS Guy!

"Middle School Algebra is so darned easy, the little bastards can just teach themselves!!" Am I right? Or am I right? "Midoriko, stop putting words into my mouth." Oh, I don't think I have to, you young punk!!

[Hajime Saitou]

Now, maybe that "a student" is plural, but look at that context. We all know what you're getting at, CCS Guy!

"Middle School Algebra is darned easy, the little bastards can just teach themselves!!" Am I right? Or am I right? "Midoriko, stop putting words into my mouth." Oh, I don't think I have to, you young punk!!

Nope. I checked not once, but three times to make sure I did not make any quantitative statements before I brought that up. You got nothin'. :D

*crosses arms*

And I quoted you before you fixed that typo. Of which I'm sure I've made many since I am DEAD TIRED, so I'll let it go, for now. But if you want that quote fixed, it's gonna cost ya.

[Midoriko87]

Nope. I checked not once, but three times to make sure I did not make any quantitative statements before I brought that up. You got nothin'. :D

*crosses arms*

The people aren't so naive. They know what was implied. :P

And I quoted you before you fixed that typo. Of which I'm sure I've made many since I am DEAD TIRED, so I'll let it go, for now. But if you want that quote fixed, it's gonna cost ya.

Yea, like that "their." Oh Snap, a "their"!! So, which is it, "a student" or "students"?!! Couldn't keep your front up, eh, CCS Guy?!! Also, I was going to tell you to fix that typo, but the good people of AN will just think you're trying to sabotage me... unless they read this post. :unsure: "Luke, use the Fork!" Yes! I'll use this fork to kill him! :thumbsup: "No, I mean, the Force, THE FORCE!!" Oh, well, that's not as cool, but whatever... <_< ANers you will overlook that typo!!

[Alice Catherine]

Coming from a middle school student to clear up these arguments:

Now, first of all, I'm in the dumb math group. This is the hell known as Algebra 1B. Mind you, my Social Studies and English knowledge have both gotten me into honors subjects, but I digress. So don't just rely on me because I've got zero math skills ANYWAY.
So Mr. Davis started this thing last chapter that every chapter we learned something from the book instead of from his Smart Board (tm). Even when he lays it all out I find I still have 10x more trouble reading the textbook than having someone write notes down for me. It's easier for me to understand the material when I don't have to go through walls of text to get to it.
So, yes, a student does need a teacher who is qualified to teach.

[Hajime Saitou]

The people aren't so naive. They know what was implied. :P

It will forever remain an implication!

Yea, like that "their." Oh Snap, a "their"!! So, which is it, "a student" or "students"?!! Couldn't keep your front up, eh, CCS Guy?!

Now this is all on me. I actually got all the way through high school without knowing that you're supposed to say "his or her," can you believe that(free shot?)? It was supposed to be "a student," but I've been doing that for around 2 decades, and I'll be damned if I'm going to stop now!

*lost a little ground*

Also, I was going to tell you to fix that typo, but the good people of AN will just think you're trying to sabotage me... unless they read this post. :unsure: "Luke, use the Fork!" Yes! I'll use this fork to kill him! :thumbsup: "No, I mean, the Force, THE FORCE!!" Oh, well, that's not as cool, but whatever... <_< ANers you will overlook that typo!!

I'll fix it if you say that CCS is the best anime ever. :P

I'm only using 5 images you infernal forum! Just let me hit submit.

...

...

Oh there it is.

Coming from a middle school student to clear up these arguments:

So, yes, a student does need a teacher who is qualified to teach.

If it holds true that some(just for Midoriko) students can be self-taught, that just leaves some students who need a teacher who is qualified to teach. I used the word "some" for clarification this time. Even then, some will be able to get by with minimal help from a teacher, but there will indeed be some that need a teacher who is qualified.

So like everything else that's been discussed so far, there's a whole spectrum of possibilities. Basically I agree that what you said can and does happen, but it's just one possibility.

[Caine]

Midoriko, I think that Calculus is, in one sense, easier to learn from a textbook than basic algebra. At that level, teachers often require that students learn things on their own, so you figure it out. True, I was in large part self taught in algebra, but I wasn't really expected to be. In calculus, I've been expected to find some things out on my own (meaning ask the smart kids or, at least last year, the TA. Last year we had a good TA.)

[Old Ape Face]

The people aren't so naive. They know what was implied. :P



Yea, like that "their." Oh Snap, a "their"!! So, which is it, "a student" or "students"?!! Couldn't keep your front up, eh, CCS Guy?!! Also, I was going to tell you to fix that typo, but the good people of AN will just think you're trying to sabotage me... unless they read this post. :unsure: "Luke, use the Fork!" Yes! I'll use this fork to kill him! :thumbsup: "No, I mean, the Force, THE FORCE!!" Oh, well, that's not as cool, but whatever... <_< ANers you will overlook that typo!!

I've read and acknowledged everything you wrote ^_^ sorry...

[Suiko Eiji]

So, yes, a student does need a teacher who is qualified to teach.

For academic pursuits, not necessarily is a teacher required. It surely makes things easier, though.

As for my opinions, ignoring many of the variables posed with the question, I would say the engineer. Not that a teacher isn't necessarily qualified to actually teach someone this level of math or cannot reach a student through many different techniques. The engineer's focus is on grander things, completion of projects and how all of the parts make a whole - not basic algebra. I say this is the greatest asset the engineer has in this case. By focusing on a more grandiose view, they know shortcuts and tips of how to quickly work through the basic maths needed to finish their projects. In the "real world" application of this and other forms of maths, I find this to be invaluable.

The caveat in this method is that teachers (I've found, but I've only got a calculus level of University level of math education) who grade on process over correctness of an answer. The engineers short cuts may not follow these processes and while the answers are equally correct, will not be graded as such and result in poor marks.

[Midoriko87]

Midoriko, I think that Calculus is, in one sense, easier to learn from a textbook than basic algebra. At that level, teachers often require that students learn things on their own, so you figure it out. True, I was in large part self taught in algebra, but I wasn't really expected to be. In calculus, I've been expected to find some things out on my own (meaning ask the smart kids or, at least last year, the TA. Last year we had a good TA.)I asked that question, because it seemed to me that CCS Guy was gauging (odd) the difficulty of elementary algebra from the perspective of an adult who has already completed that class (and more advanced Mathematics courses). You know, not taking into account that it might not be so easy for a student taking Elementary Algebra the first time around.

Oh yea, before I forget. You weren't expected to be?!! YOU WEREN'T EXPECTED TO BE?!! Does that even matter?!! :angry:

[Holy Knight]

The caveat in this method is that teachers (I've found, but I've only got a calculus level of University level of math education) who grade on process over correctness of an answer. The engineers short cuts may not follow these processes and while the answers are equally correct, will not be graded as such and result in poor marks.

I've found this to be a very annoying aspect of college-level math. They require you to be meticulous in the extreme, to levels which people with personalities like mine are not used to and that can,unfortunately, have a very negative effect on your grade. Didn't help that my teacher was a stickler for the very fine and intricate parts of math.

What does it matter that I didn't write "A^-1" on that matrix opener? The answer was the right one, so was the method. The answer my teacher gave me was "you have to specify the type or one may not know what you're writing about".

Bogus, I tell you. Not only that, but the fact that you're required to write out the entire equation shaves away at the very precious time you're given to complete an exam.

Although I do find it amusing to see the murderous glares directed at the student who finishes way before the end of the exam and yet still gets a high mark. :lol:

I asked that question, because it seemed to me that CCS Guy was gauging (odd) the difficulty of elementary algebra from the perspective of an adult who has already completed that class (and more advanced Mathematics courses). You know, not taking into account that it might not be so easy for a student taking Elementary Algebra the first time around.

Oh yea, before I forget. You weren't expected to be?!! YOU WEREN'T EXPECTED TO BE?!! Does that even matter?!! :angry:

<Jean-Luc slides in>

Ah, Midoriko, laisse moi deviner. Tu n'a jamais été très bonne en mathématiques, n'est-ce pas? Quel dommage! Le gachis de voir la pure créativité de vos textes sous forme de mots, la perte qu'a le monde des mathématiques en voyant une telle perfection de l'exécution se défouler avec des mots et non des nombres.

Midoriko, Midoriko...Tu aurais pu être tellement plus enjolivante sous la forme divine qu'est le chiffre!

[Midoriko87]

<Jean-Luc slides in>

Ah, Midoriko, laisse moi deviner. Tu n'a jamais été très bonne en mathématiques, n'est-ce pas? Quel dommage! Le gachis de voir la pure créativité de vos textes sous forme de mots, la perte qu'a le monde des mathématiques en voyant une telle perfection de l'exécution se défouler avec des mots et non des nombres.

Midoriko, Midoriko...Tu aurais pu être tellement plus enjolivante sous la forme divine qu'est le chiffre!

Mercy me, I do declare our little Frenchie done grew up to be a sho 'nough sport!! :lol:

Hmm, drawing on my expansive French vocabulary, it is clear that the above translates to "That Midoriko is a stone cold fox." The French language, so beautiful yet so needlessly wordy! :lol:

Seriously, HK, cut it out already. Dang, I like French and all, but the last French class I took was some three years ago (so old). And, what part of "I'm a slacker and lovin' it" don't you people seem to understand?!! I DON'T STUDY... but I'm working on it. Well, I study what I like... which is stuff unrelated to my major. :unsure: Like, Psychology, I like, but I'm not a Psychology Major... YET!!

Anywho, I like math, Jean-Luc. I dunno, it's hard to explain, I'm not good at solving puzzles, so I enjoy math...? :uhh: It makes more sense in my head. Although, getting into math is a chore. Whenever I "learn" the basics during the school year, I forget them over the Summer. So, every year since the 10th Grade I'm behind at the beginning of class, and I have to re-teach myself basics. After that, I'm good (very good, actually *Cocky*)... 'til I start daydreaming in class. *Cough*

And, yea, you're right, my writing is where it's at (whatever "it" is)! :thumbsup: Well, not much of a debater... I'll stop spamming, now. This thread is about helping people cheat on their homework, only a scoundrel would stand in the way of such a noble cause!!

[ANIMEJUNKY]

I voted for the teacher for the simple fact that they can make it so easy and enjoyable like my current physics teacher. Yet if it was Doc Brown.:P

[Caine]

I asked that question, because it seemed to me that CCS Guy was gauging (odd) the difficulty of elementary algebra from the perspective of an adult who has already completed that class (and more advanced Mathematics courses). You know, not taking into account that it might not be so easy for a student taking Elementary Algebra the first time around.

Oh yea, before I forget. You weren't expected to be?!! YOU WEREN'T EXPECTED TO BE?!! Does that even matter?!! :angry:


yes, it does matter. I was the exception then. Now, most of my courses require students to be somewhat self taught. Calculus is usually more self taught than algebra.

The real question is, does the student want to learn? That's the real problem. If the student truly wants to learn, he'll probably tech himself regardless. If he doesn't want to learn, he won't.

@HK
that blows.
In my class there is no smart kid who finishes early. The dumb people are smart enough to know they don't know, so they (we) guess (or draw a Calvin and Hobbes comic) and leave. Its the smart people who stay and finish.

[Zash]

A lot of the times, people say the teacher doesn't have the personality to teach or can't teach. But what if it's just you? Maybe you were the only one in your algebra class that did crappy and the rest got it. If you think about it, you can't make math interesting, unless your teacher is a comedian. Let's face it, math is dry, period. A teacher who goes to teacher college would know how to teach it. An engineer is taught just like a student, but in no way is he actually qualified to teach. He is only taught like the rest. So if you want someone with a profound knowledge concerning algebra, you would go to the source, the source that even taught the engineer which would be the teacher.

[Midoriko87]

yes, it does matter. I was the exception then. Now, most of my courses require students to be somewhat self taught. Calculus is usually more self taught than algebra.

The real question is, does the student want to learn? That's the real problem. If the student truly wants to learn, he'll probably tech himself regardless. If he doesn't want to learn, he won't.

Does that make Calculus easier to self-teach? I mean, just 'cause teachers generally leave the kids hangin'? Or, is it easier self-taught (than Middle School Algebra) because at that level, adolescents are more mature, more patient, able to better manage their time, able to study more efficiently, able to think more critically, etc, etc? Like, Gosh and Golly Gee, it's self-teaching. Why not cut the middle man altogether?

[Amuro]

Since the thread has the word "properly" in the title, my vote goes to the engineer. A teacher may be able to teach it more quickly. However, as someone tutors children at elementary school, I find it amazing how many children don't even realize what subtraction, of all things, is in a real world context. They absolutely cannot do word problems because they have no idea what this mystical process of subtraction has to do with the real world. These are 3rd-graders we're talking about.

Algebra may be even harder to understand the basic motives behind. Thus, I definitely recommend someone who's actually had advanced mathematical training as a more likely candidate for making sure the student understands what the subject really means than someone who's used to simply repeating a memorized speech in front of a class every year.

[Caine]

^you want an engineer teaching a middle shcooler the real world applications of algebra? In that case, the advanced knowledge is a drawback.

^^or is it that you already have the mathematical background? Or that you know who the smart kids to ask for help are? Or any one of another of the possible answere we could come up with? I don't know.

[Hajime Saitou]

A lot of the times, people say the teacher doesn't have the personality to teach or can't teach. But what if it's just you? Maybe you were the only one in your algebra class that did crappy and the rest got it.

From personal experience, and other first-hand accounts in this very thread, at least a majority(50%) of students will do poorly in a math class. There is no way that the number of students that do poorly will be 1.

If you think about it, you can't make math interesting, unless your teacher is a comedian. Let's face it, math is dry, period.

Nope. I've had interesting math classes. It wasn't dry at all. Any subject can be interesting, whether through teacher ingenuity or other means.

A teacher who goes to teacher college should know how to teach it.

Fixed that for ya. :thumbsup: I see you still can't grasp the concept.

An engineer is taught just like a student, but in no way is he actually qualified to teach.

:rolleyes:

He is only taught like the rest. So if you want someone with a profound knowledge concerning algebra, you would go to the source, the source that even taught the engineer which would be the teacher.

Ok, this thread is no longer about math. It is about reading comprehension. Someone needs to go back and read the thread, several times, until he gets it. :lol: You're really not even trying, so I'll stop picking on you. 4 pages in and your reasoning is still "the teacher because teachers can teach."

[Midoriko87]

^^or is it that you already have the mathematical background? Or that you know who the smart kids to ask for help are? Or any one of another of the possible answere we could come up with? I don't know.

A Seventh Grader would also have the necessary background, pre-algebra. Like, there aren't many guidance counselors who would allow a student to register for a Calculus class without having completed Trigonometry (or another course which readies students for Calc.). Also, from a very young age, students take note of who's who at their school... blah blah socialization...

Just sayin', "because it's expected of them" doesn't quite travel a smooth path to "Calculus is easier to self-teach than Algebra." The reasons behind why students are expected to be self-taught or more self-dependent , maybe. That's all.

[Caine]

^ I might be wrong. That's always possible. However, calculus is more often self taught than is basic algebra. This is points to the possibility that calculus may be easier to self teach. Its not prrof, but it does show the possibility.
Still, a seventh grader (or whatever grade you learn algebra at) wouldn't be as used to seeing how math works. Not just the critical thinking, but the methods used, familiarity with math textbooks and their insane methods, familiarity proofs, all factor into the background I was speaking of.

[Holy Knight]

^ I might be wrong. That's always possible. However, calculus is more often self taught than is basic algebra. This is points to the possibility that calculus may be easier to self teach. Its not prrof, but it does show the possibility.
Still, a seventh grader (or whatever grade you learn algebra at) wouldn't be as used to seeing how math works. Not just the critical thinking, but the methods used, familiarity with math textbooks and their insane methods, familiarity proofs, all factor into the background I was speaking of.

By the time you attain calculus-level math, you're pretty much self-teaching. Calculus is horrible in the sense that there are so many variations of the same formula that can be applied that if you don't do enough exercises, you're done for.

I've hit quite a few of these in my own exams and no matter how hard you study or how many exercises you do, teachers always manage to make something you haven't seen yet. That's when you start thinking "why didn't I think of that? It's so obvious" once the grading is done and you can see the answers.

I don't know. That way I see calculus, it's just a few formulas and a heck of a lot of exercises. It's certainly possible to self-teach yourself, but if you hit an exercise you can't figure out, you might as well hit your head on the desk for all the good it will do you. In this case, a teacher would help the process.

As for 7th graders not comprehending the math, that entirely depends on the individual. I've seen some very smart students who did poorly at math and some average students who excelled at it. I don't know. It all depends on one's abilities, I guess.

Now, is it just me or is this thread very slowly degenerating towards a "we hate math" thread? :lol:

[Caine]

By the time you attain calculus-level math, you're pretty much self-teaching. Calculus is horrible in the sense that there are so many variations of the same formula that can be applied that if you don't do enough exercises, you're done for.

now you tell me (only sort of joking, sadly.) my problem is that I'm too lazy for calculus.


I've hit quite a few of these in my own exams and no matter how hard you study or how many exercises you do, teachers always manage to make something you haven't seen yet. That's when you start thinking "why didn't I think of that? It's so obvious" once the grading is done and you can see the answers.

you get the answers? I just get a number.


I don't know. That way I see calculus, it's just a few formulas and a heck of a lot of exercises. It's certainly possible to self-teach yourself, but if you hit an exercise you can't figure out, you might as well hit your head on the desk for all the good it will do you. In this case, a teacher would help the process.

you'd be surprised how helpful hitting one's head on the desk can be, though our desks are hard to use for that purpose. Still, walls and books accomplish the same end.

[Midoriko87]

^ I might be wrong. That's always possible. However, calculus is more often self taught than is basic algebra. This is points to the possibility that calculus may be easier to self teach. Its not prrof, but it does show the possibility.
Still, a seventh grader (or whatever grade you learn algebra at) wouldn't be as used to seeing how math works. Not just the critical thinking, but the methods used, familiarity with math textbooks and their insane methods, familiarity proofs, all factor into the background I was speaking of.

Aw, my fuzzy little opossum friend, I wasn't saying you were wrong. I just felt that "it's more often self taught" isn't reason enough, yes? I still believe an 8th Grader would have a solid enough base, though. I mean, come on, it's just Middle School Algebra! :shifty:

[Hajime Saitou]

I mean, come on, it's just Middle School Algebra! :shifty:

I see what you did there. :naughty:

[musashi1600]

It's been longer than I said it would be before I explained why I made this, but I might as well do so anyway in case someone's interested.

The inspiration for this poll came from overhearing my brother argue with my dad (guess what he does for a living) over math homework. The basic paradox I was aiming at was of choosing between someone who would know how to teach someone a concept (in this case, algebra) versus someone who knows how to apply the same concept, but may not know how to teach it. In turn, that premise is based on how much faith one has in people who teach for a living, which was one of the reasons why I was deliberately vague about the question.

This was one of three polls I ran, each on a different forum. The other two were at the Old Home Bulletin Board forum (http://cff.ssw.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2220) (a Haibane Renmei fansite I visit) and the Kawaii Kon convention forum (http://www.kawaii-kon.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4295).

[Tenou]

I was actually thinking of this thread today and wondering. My question is, what is the demography of the other two forums? They both have vastly different responses compared to here where the majority (going by who posted) are over 20 years old and a many of them have some post secondary education.

It's been longer than I said it would be before I explained why I made this, but I might as well do so anyway in case someone's interested.

The inspiration for this poll came from overhearing my brother argue with my dad (guess what he does for a living) over math homework. The basic paradox I was aiming at was of choosing between someone who would know how to teach someone a concept (in this case, algebra) versus someone who knows how to apply the same concept, but may not know how to teach it. In turn, that premise is based on how much faith one has in people who teach for a living, which was one of the reasons why I was deliberately vague about the question.

This was one of three polls I ran, each on a different forum. The other two were at the Old Home Bulletin Board forum (http://cff.ssw.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2220) (a Haibane Renmei fansite I visit) and the Kawaii Kon convention forum (http://www.kawaii-kon.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4295).

[musashi1600]

I was actually thinking of this thread today and wondering. My question is, what is the demography of the other two forums? They both have vastly different responses compared to here where the majority (going by who posted) are over 20 years old and a many of them have some post secondary education.

I wasn't thinking too much about that, actually. I would assume the KK forums are similar to here in terms of age/gender/education spread (i.e., 14-30 years old, more males than females, range is between high school graduation pending and postgraduate college degree), except with people being focused in Hawaii, but the OHBB is practically all over the page in terms of user backgrounds. I've seen a lawyer from Indiana and a computer hardware manager from Hungary there.

[Alice Catherine]

I now think that it depends on the kid. For real.


If the kid is easy to teach and eager to learn, I say that the algebra teacher can do it.

If the kid is really REALLY bad at math but tries hard (like me), it's still the algebra teacher.

If the kid wants to know how it applies in real life (*whiny voice* "WHEN ARE WE EVA GONNA NEED DIS???"), the engineer might be able to help.


...but if you have my math class where everyone's a "gangster" and they REALLY don't want to learn, you're pretty screwed. Like I said, it depends on the kid.

[Kyuu Dan]

I wouldn't trust either. I'd trust someone who passed the class a year or two before to teach me (which is what I do).

For some reason, teachers can't get math through my head (most of the time, there was that one thing with Proofs this year that worked out well), and I doubt an Engineer would have much more luck.

But, basically, since I'm done with Algebra (thank the highland shepherd or Scotland), I think I'd go for the middle school teacher.

As for what Alice said, for those who don't think they're ever going to use the crap... *evil smile* think again. ^_^ Whoever they are, they're in for a rude awakening. For some reason we still use that stuff in Geo, was anyone else's class like that?

Anyway, I use half of the formulas in daily life. Why, I'm not sure. But I use them. :lol:

Just a random blurb that's off the off topic (sort of):
Even if I don't understand half of the material, I love my Geo class. We have exactly 10 kids, and are missing at least one of them over fifty percent of the time (according to my teacher's records). Funny thing is, only two or three were due to absences, and no one's skipped. Makes you wonder where we spend second period, doesn't it. ^_^ And If that made you wonder, I'm wondering why you were wondering so much.

[Alice Catherine]

I got a B in math.


I've tapped Davis's full potential.

[Kyuu Dan]

I got a B in math.


I've tapped Davis's full potential.

Davis isn't too shabby, but I think Parish is a genius. (Maybe since I've had her for two years it changes things)

And ditto. 85% in Geo.

[Alice Catherine]

Davis isn't too shabby, but I think Parish is a genius. (Maybe since I've had her for two years it changes things)

And ditto. 85% in Geo.

86 OH BABY.

Like... point 25 or something. Yeah. 86.25.

And I got better grades with Mr. W than I do with Davis. I got all As with Mr. W.

[JFaulkner]

I don't know, it's difficult: the middle school teacher might have more interpersonal skills, but could be a paedophile, whereas the structural engineer might have more technical knowledge, but could also be a paedophile.

[Kyuu Dan]

86 OH BABY.

Like... point 25 or something. Yeah. 86.25.

And I got better grades with Mr. W than I do with Davis. I got all As with Mr. W.

Point number 3.13 as to why I am not as smart as people claim I am.

Power to the idiots, there's less conflict that way.