Too much customization going on?

[Ketaru]

The Modern RPG and the Perils of Customization (http://www.rpgfan.com/editorials/2007/09-03.html)

So what do you think? I've been having similar thoughts for a little while, looking at some of the Final Fantasy games lately. Am I the only person that did "not" like the materia system for VII or something? Especially later in the game when, if you wanted to switch characters, I have to go through the tedious process of moving materia from one character to another.

Not that I think anything is wrong with customization so much as I think they've been making it too easy (like in X, you literally could have a party of super powered Red Mages by the end of the game).

I like customization, but I would prefer more restrictions sometimes. The writer brought up Dragon Quest VIII, which is a decent example. You "could" make Jessica fight with a sword, but she wouldn't be very good at it. I like it more than, say, Final Fantasy VII's system where it almost didn't matter who you brought in your party (how many playable characters were there? 8 or 9 or something like that? You could've used the same 3 throughout the whole game without giving anything up really) Just like in VIII where the only difference between characters was the limit breaks. And those differences make some characters like Squall seem overpowered, while it makes others like Selphie seem almost obsolete.

[MrKoreanguy]

I agree. The only reason I couldn't finish Final Fantasy XII was because I felt that everyone was just the same. Same with FFX and most RPG's nowadays. The supposed "limitless customization" is killing this genre.

I used to like it when "i r smash things" characters could not become mages at all. They could try, but they would end up being a crappy healer. So yeah. I think that an RPG should start with three or four staple characters ("i r smash things", "i r heal things", "i r sneaky lol", and "i am teh customizable") and stick with it, and not let everyone become the ultimate character.

Just an opinion, though.

[kenshinbebop]

I liked X's grid system a lot. XII's was awkward but I got used to it. DQ VIII was awesome as well...

I guess I'm...neutral?

[seba_boi]

The Modern RPG and the Perils of Customization (http://www.rpgfan.com/editorials/2007/09-03.html)

So what do you think? I've been having similar thoughts for a little while, looking at some of the Final Fantasy games lately. Am I the only person that did "not" like the materia system for VII or something? Especially later in the game when, if you wanted to switch characters, I have to go through the tedious process of moving materia from one character to another.

Yes, thank you!... The Materia system bogged down time like crazy whenever I change characters in FFVII!!!... I still love it though... I love character customizations... I can make anybody my main healer or my main melee fighter, etc... I dunno why you guys are complaining abou this so much... You guys have no stretch of imagination... ;)

Thus said, I love the styems for VII, VIII, IX, X, X-2, and XII...


X-2's is the weakest though in terms of buffing up your characters...

[Sendo Takeshi]

The Materia system was broken as all hell. Not a good system at all. EVERYONE wounded up being the same and broken. Also, FFXII's customization was a lot better than FFX's by far.

And if you want real customization, just stick to FFT.

[Nash]

Junctions were the worst thing ever created.

[Ketaru]

Yes, thank you!... The Materia system bogged down time like crazy whenever I change characters in FFVII!!!... I still love it though... I love character customizations... I can make anybody my main healer or my main melee fighter, etc... I dunno why you guys are complaining abou this so much... You guys have no stretch of imagination... ;)

Well, to give you an idea of what I really mean, here is a common "problem" people cite with Final Fantasy XI (the MMORPG FF game). A lot of people say it is unfair how it seems some jobs seem more powerful than others or some jobs (like Red Mage, White Mage, Bard) bring abilities to the party that no other jobs can, making them far too desirable compared to, say, a Dragoon, which is undoubtedly more limited to dealing damage (respectable damage, but it "is" still rather limited in scope).

Now the counter example to this point: Why don't we just give everybody Cure, Provoke, Refresh, Sleep, Ballad, Protect, Shell, etc. etc.? Obviously, it would kill the spirit of the game.

Going back to the Jessica-With-Swords example, it certainly has style (and if you are careful with how you use it, it certainly has its place in the game), but when I decide I want her to be able to use swords, I want the game to force me to ask myself "What am I giving up by making the party's mage more melee-competent?" rather than it seemingly far too easy, allowing you to simply do both. You don't give up anything from giving Cloud Cure+All materia. He can still use Omnislash.

[Soluzar]

I really do like customisable characters, but at the same time... there was definitely something wrong with the Materia system from FFVII. There was too little to differentiate each character from the others. If there is a customisation system layered on top of characters who already have their own range of innate abilities (some of which are unique) that can work. Then you're adding something to an already interesting and distinctive skillset rather than just transferring yet another carbon-copy skillset from one character to the other.

[lav2k4]

Junction system was ****, and too complex. The fact that you had to re junction everything again after coming back from Laguna era is so annoying.

[JFaulkner]

To be honest, I find turn based battles become a bit of a chore no matter what degree of customization you give to it. I think the author was being a bit harsh on FF7 - although the materia system was inter-character, you still had the option of specializing your characters if you want to: nobody's forcing you to make the characters the same. For example, you can make Vincent be a poison specialist. FF9 had more specialized characters, but the combat wasn't much better IMO.

I think what is more important is how the combat system is implemented, rather than how much customization there can be. For example, the characters in Secret of Mana can use any weapon, but I found the combat enjoyable, whereas for Wild Arms 1 & 2, the degree of character specialization didn't take away the fact that I found the battles more tedious than watching paint dry.

In any case, I play RPGs mainly for the story.

[Sendo Takeshi]

Junction system was ****, and too complex. The fact that you had to re junction everything again after coming back from Laguna era is so annoying.

Yeah, no. Junctioning was too easy and too broken. You didn't even have to waste magic in the game.

[Talon]

I think a job system like in FFT, FF3, and even FF11 is the way to go. That way you have to learn how to make a functioning party on your own. Its still fun and at the same time, not too complicated.

[The Million Dollar Prons]

Another logical place to start would be perhaps the most famous game of the series (and, perhaps the RPG genre as a whole), Final Fantasy VII. At the height of popularity of the PlayStation, I vividly remember the day I got my hands on Final Fantasy VII (and boy, I wish I bought a few to keep in the plastic to sell on eBay now). The game is famous for many things: the genre's transition from 2-D to 3-D, its amazing (and shocking) storyline, its score, and perhaps, most importantly, its mainstreaming of the genre. There were TV commercials, t-shirts, and I had cousins, who had no idea what an RPG was, rushing to the store to buy the game. Quite simply, Final Fantasy VII (and Square's exclusivity contract with Sony) was so important that it might have been responsible for the success of the PlayStation and the commercial failure of the N64/GameCube in the United States.

This left me scratching my head big time

[Hajime Saitou]

Yes, thank you!... The Materia system bogged down time like crazy whenever I change characters in FFVII!!!

It takes one minute to change materia between characters. How often do you change your party in this game anyway? The same thing with Junctions. That was not time consuming at all.

although the materia system was inter-character, you still had the option of specializing your characters if you want to: nobody's forcing you to make the characters the same.

Correct. Why are you guys complaining about customization if you don't even customize your characters? You are given the freedom to do what you want, and you choose to normalize them instead. It's your fault if you decide to make them all the same, not the game's. It just gives you the option to do so.

Since I don't want to click the link, I'm just going to copy and paste what Prons quoted, but broken down:

Another logical place to start would be perhaps the most famous game of the series (and, perhaps the RPG genre as a whole), Final Fantasy VII. At the height of popularity of the PlayStation, I vividly remember the day I got my hands on Final Fantasy VII (and boy, I wish I bought a few to keep in the plastic to sell on eBay now). The game is famous for many things: the genre's transition from 2-D to 3-D, its amazing (and shocking) storyline, its score

I don't agree with everything he wrote here, and some things are just incorrect, but this part doesn't bother me because the good stuff is next.

and perhaps, most importantly, its mainstreaming of the genre. There were TV commercials, t-shirts, and I had cousins, who had no idea what an RPG was, rushing to the store to buy the game.

GTFO and DIAF. Yes, this game truly was responsible for bringing in the fanboy horde. All of the little kids with their usernames across various websites and online games, you know the ones: Sefiroth, Sepphiroth, Seffiroth, Sseeffffiirroothhh. Anything goes to get your name to be Sephiroth, right? :thumbsup: I agree, this did bring in people who had no idea what an RPG was, and their opinions aren't worth anything. So many fanboys. And they stuck around and ate up anything that Square(and now Square-Enix), threw at them. I almost forgot to mention hype. Hype is evil. Nothing more needs to be said about that.

Whenever I try to praise Final Fantasy VII, I find myself tearing down the idiotic OMG sephiroth fanboys more often than actually responding to criticisms about the game. The game is really damn good, but the fanbase has given it a bad reputation over the years, and that's why it draws so much negative attention compared to VI, which is very close in quality, but no one touches it because it wasn't "mainstream" and doesn't have an army of fanboys praising it for the dumbest things.

Do I sound like a harsh elitist? Good. It's better than being someone that picks up their first game and claims it's the bestest game ever, without even knowing anything about any other games. Even worse, sticking to that for the rest of their life like some fool.

Now this next part shows that this author is one of those fanboys. Once again I can't just talk about how good FFVII was...<_<

Quite simply, Final Fantasy VII (and Square's exclusivity contract with Sony) was so important that it might have been responsible for the success of the PlayStation

Whereas Square was in its prime at that point, with great games like FFVII, Xenogears, Parasite Eve, Front Mission 3, FFT, etc. there is no way that Square alone was responsible for the success of the PSX. It was successful because it had a huge varied library of quality games. No matter what kind of game(s) you liked to play, the PSX had them. Lots of them.

and the commercial failure of the N64/GameCube in the United States.

*facepalm* I don't have anything to say here. FFVII crippled the N64 and the GC. That must be it! /sarcasm

[seba_boi]

It takes one minute to change materia between characters. How often do you change your party in this game anyway? The same thing with Junctions. That was not time consuming at all.

1.) For the record, I love the junction system... I got no beef with it at all--and yes, it was not time-consuming at all...

2.) The Materia system was time-consuming in that if I want to transfer Materia from one character to another and their slots do not match... If that's the case, I have to extract all Materia from all characters and set them again to balance out the group I currently want to use... And to add that, there are weapons and bangles that add extra AP to Materia and I had to choose which Materia needs more AP and place them with that weapon/bangle... I make it a rule to even out the levels of all my characters so I switch a lot... I also want to incorporate the materia in accordance to the characters' personality (that's the fun part of cuztomizing)... It's transferring and the decision-making that cost the time... And need I say again that I still love the Materia system despite this chore?...

[Hajime Saitou]

1.) For the record, I love the junction system... I got no beef with it at all--and yes, it was not time-consuming at all...

I have plenty of beefs with it, but time wasn't one of them.

2.) The Materia system was time-consuming in that if I want to transfer Materia from one character to another and their slots do not match... If that's the case, I have to extract all Materia from all characters and set them again to balance out the group I currently want to use... And to add that, there are weapons and bangles that add extra AP to Materia and I had to choose which Materia needs more AP and place them with that weapon/bangle... I make it a rule to even out the levels of all my characters so I switch a lot... I also want to incorporate the materia in accordance to the characters' personality (that's the fun part of cuztomizing)... It's transferring and the decision-making that cost the time... And need I say again that I still love the Materia system despite this chore?...

Most of those things you just listed are personal choices...that I find kind of odd, but everyone plays differently so that's ok. So...do you like, change your group everytime someone levels, or do you just even them out over the long run? -_-; If you do it every level, that would be crazy, and the system involved wouldn't really matter. The personality part is obviously a personal choice, but it is a choice you have available to you and that's a good thing. Also when I did switch out characters, I never removed materia from the characters that stayed in the group. I can understand why you would do that, but I never had a shortage of good materia lying around. I only unequipped the materia from the party member I removed, and used remaining materia I had lying around.

Aside from those three things, the rest you listed are good things, and I would gladly spend time on them. I know you're not complaining about them, but it seems silly to say it takes time to work a system like this with the AP multiplier equipment, available slots, etc. It adds an extra layer of immersion besides picking the weapons and armor with the biggest numbers.

For an analogy which I'm sure is flawed in some way, complex crafting systems in games take up a lot of time. I would never think to say "they take a lot of time" or "they're time consuming" but that's what they are. It's a fun system with obvious benefits, so why not mess around with it?

[seba_boi]

I have plenty of beefs with it, but time wasn't one of them. Like what?... It wasn't time-consuming when cuztomizing the characters but drawing magic from enemies does...



Most of those things you just listed are personal choices...that I find kind of odd, but everyone plays differently so that's ok. So...do you like, change your group everytime someone levels, or do you just even them out over the long run? -_-; If you do it every level, that would be crazy, and the system involved wouldn't really matter. The personality part is obviously a personal choice, but it is a choice you have available to you and that's a good thing. Also when I did switch out characters, I never removed materia from the characters that stayed in the group. I can understand why you would do that, but I never had a shortage of good materia lying around. I only unequipped the materia from the party member I removed, and used remaining materia I had lying around.

Aside from those three things, the rest you listed are good things, and I would gladly spend time on them. I know you're not complaining about them, but it seems silly to say it takes time to work a system like this with the AP multiplier equipment, available slots, etc. It adds an extra layer of immersion besides picking the weapons and armor with the biggest numbers.

:wacko: Call me crazy, but I do switch characters whenever somebody levels up... I just like them all levelled equally that way... Probably why I love the cuztomization in FFXII a lot more since there's no actual "main character" I have to predominantly stick with and gain more experience points than the rest of the group (I don't like separating Balthier and Fran though :( I always put them together when I create a group)...

[Hajime Saitou]

Like what?... It wasn't time-consuming when cuztomizing the characters but drawing magic from enemies does...

Yes, the method used to acquire magic is a perfect example of something being time consuming. It's just that the junction system uses magic. To properly compare it to the materia system, I was simply referring to the actual switching in and out of equipped materia. Once again, the junction system is not time consuming. If you want to say that since the junction system uses magic, and it is time consuming to obtain magic, therefore the system itself is time consuming, I think you're reaching too far. I'm not saying that you said that, but for anyone who would try to do so, that's who that is addressed to.

As for complaints of the junction system, where to start. :-" I've made a lot of posts on it before, and I don't mean to be lazy, but if you search for junction under my posts you should be able to find a nice long discussion about all of FF8, should you be interested. Even though I think I remember you posting in there as well, so we may have done this before.

:wacko: Call me crazy, but I do switch characters whenever somebody levels up... I just like them all levelled equally that way...

*cringes horribly at the thought of changing his group after every level*

Crazy. :P


Probably why I love the cuztomization in FFXII a lot more since there's no actual "main character" I have to predominantly stick with and gain more experience points than the rest of the group (I don't like separating Balthier and Fran though :( I always put them together when I create a group)...

If you really do play like what you mentioned above, I can see why that would appeal to you.

[Ketaru]

Whenever I try to praise Final Fantasy VII, I find myself tearing down the idiotic OMG sephiroth fanboys more often than actually responding to criticisms about the game. The game is really damn good, but the fanbase has given it a bad reputation over the years, and that's why it draws so much negative attention compared to VI, which is very close in quality, but no one touches it because it wasn't "mainstream" and doesn't have an army of fanboys praising it for the dumbest things.

To be fair, I did have VI in mind when I made this thread, but you say it yourself, nobody particularly cares about the game. But there is somewhat of a difference between VI and VIII, and that is the statistics of the characters. They grow in certain ways as they level and that progression is rather difficult to change. Nothing in the game will ever turn Relm into a melee unit. And Cyan will always be a lackluster mage (...or lackluster meleer for that matter, since his Ability just doesn't cut it compared to the other characters). Depending on how you look at it though, VI's battle system was even more broken than VII's, when it came to the spells that were independent of statistics (like Reraise...or Life 3...or whatever it was called in this game). No such "shortcoming" appears in VII though, except maybe for Aeris, who they decided was unworthy of being an endgame player. The statistics are not different enough to make Barret a horrible healer or Cait Sith a serviceable warrior at best. We essentially have 8 clones that just have different desperation attacks (which also happen to lack variety as, later in the game, they're all attacks).

[Hajime Saitou]

To be fair, I did have VI in mind when I made this thread, but you say it yourself, nobody particularly cares about the game.

I didn't say nobody particularly cares about the game. On the contrary, a lot of people care about the game, a lot. I said it never gets any negative attention because people always like to beat up on VII, the mainstream one. The only thing the mainstream nature of this game hurt was the fanbase. It didn't even scratch the paint of the game. No one would think to say anything bad about VI, as it is the sacred cow of the franchise. It is:

1. 2D.
2. On the SNES.
3. Pre-mainstream.

There's a lot of bias and nostalgia involved when it comes to judging games. The VI/VII thing is afflicted by these three things mainly. Both games are excellent and I'm not saying that VI should get bashed(because it really shouldn't), but the reasons that everyone jumps on VII are usually biased, leaving out information or twisting information in favor of VI.

Hey look! Here's a good example:

But there is somewhat of a difference between VI and VIII, and that is the statistics of the characters. They grow in certain ways as they level and that progression is rather difficult to change. Nothing in the game will ever turn Relm into a melee unit. And Cyan will always be a lackluster mage (...or lackluster meleer for that matter, since his Ability just doesn't cut it compared to the other characters).

Woah. :ph34r: Maybe you shouldn't be analyzing the Final Fantasy series if you could say something like this. Magicite. My Terra had 9999 health, did 9999 damage with an atma weapon and the ragnarok, hit 8 times due to a genji glove and an offering, had over 100% magic block, and near 100% physical evasion. She was more or less a god. She could kill just about anything in one hit. To do the math, that's 79,992 damage from a normal attack. This could be replicated on just about anyone. How? Magicite and equipment. When you leveled, you got a bonus depending on what magicite you had equipped. Yes, there is a way to change Relm into a melee unit, and yes, Cyan can be a good mage. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were not aware of this, and weren't just leaving it out for some reason. ^_^

It was all about what Magicite you had equipped when you leveled. It was easy to switch them around and plan ahead. It was easy to customize. I used this on all of my characters to enhance them. Furthermore, that genji glove and offering, you know, relics. The overpowered relics of FFVI that could allow anyone to be anything, if you wanted to do so. ;) Customization was right there in VI, and it had the same effect. Customize or normalize, it's up to you. Even if you just randomly choose your espers, you should still end up with everyone at 9999 health doing 9999 damage. It's no different than VII.

Depending on how you look at it though, VI's battle system was even more broken than VII's, when it came to the spells that were independent of statistics (like Reraise...or Life 3...or whatever it was called in this game).

Neither system is broken. They both offer customization. If someone decides to fully utilize the system, you're going to get ridiculous results, like hitting for 79,992 damage from a normal attack command, being immune to all magic except for ultima and Fallen One, and being almost impossible to hit with physical attacks. :thumbsup: Nothing was working in an unintended way.

No such "shortcoming" appears in VII though, except maybe for Aeris, who they decided was unworthy of being an endgame player. The statistics are not different enough to make Barret a horrible healer or Cait Sith a serviceable warrior at best. We essentially have 8 clones that just have different desperation attacks (which also happen to lack variety as, later in the game, they're all attacks).

I disagree with this as well, but I'm going to stop here. I just want to say one thing though, and that's that Aeris's level 4 limit break was most certainly not damage, and it's a good thing she wasn't an endgame player because of it.

You're ignoring things in VI and really twisting things in VII. The characters weren't all the same. They weren't as different as characters in other games, but it was enough to notice a difference in performance, whether it be defense, speed, or any other stat. VI is in the same boat as VII when it comes to customization, and the "statistics of the characters."

[Nash]

Junctions were garbage because without them yer characters were miserable weak crappy fighters.

At least in 7, without Materia, people could actually do things in combat.

FF8 fails in so many ways.

[Redd]

I just wish the newere Final Fantasies would be a little similar to 9 where characters really dont criss cross each others skills and magic abilities. You had a thief, different magic user, fighters, and summoners. Have characters like that with the XII battle system and that would be my game of choice.

[ryushe]

I'm actually on the fence with this whole topic of customization. On one hand, I love to customize in RPG's. It brings something interesting to your party. Need to fight a flying enemy with the evasion of a cheetah on acid? Swords and Spears not working? Fine, make everyone in the party a Mage and blast that baddie with magic, better yet, make everyone a projectile user and ninja star it to hell.

I love instances like that...At the beginning. That's the big thing with these RPG's based heavy on customizing. By the end game, everyone more or less is the same carbon cut out of each other.

Out all the RPG's I've played in the past 7 years, I have to say Dragon Quest VIII still hold the honer of the BEST modern day RPG. Call me nostalgic all you want, but I like when my warrior used a sword and shield and didn't concern himself with support magic. When my axe user didn't concern himself with healing and I sure as hell didn't look to my healer to preform powerful attacks rivaling the warriors.

It's also important to note that not every Final Fantasy has been this way after VI. Final Fantasy IX, one of the least celebrated of the franchise, did not ignore some of its core audience. Vivi was a paragon of a black mage, Dagger was the white mage and responsible for all of the curing, while Eiko was the only character who could learn Esuna. Interestingly that title has faded into obscurity. Why? Because even though the game received very positive reviews, the sales of it paled in comparison to Final Fantasy VII or even VIII. Because of this, Square Enix had fulfilled its own prophecy: a return to nostalgia does not translate into sales.
I agree 100% with this part of the article. FFIX was the last best RPG I played prior DQ:VIII. Not only was the story great, but every played their roles. If the levels were even, Zidane wasn't a powerhouse compared to Stiener or even Amerant. Fraya was your lance user with only a selective amount of healing and support magic and If you needed a black mage or white mage, who else could you turn to other than Vivi or Garnet. These "restrictions" if you will, provides for a better endgame experience IMO.

To be honest, I find turn based battles become a bit of a chore no matter what degree of customization you give to it. I think the author was being a bit harsh on FF7 - although the materia system was inter-character, you still had the option of specializing your characters if you want to: nobody's forcing you to make the characters the same. For example, you can make Vincent be a poison specialist. FF9 had more specialized characters, but the combat wasn't much better IMO.
your right, The battle scheme in FFVII and FFIX wasn't to much different from each other, But IMO, with the restrictions FFIX provides, it made it more fun to fiddle around with your party members. For example, I've played Final Fantasy VII over 10 times. Do you know how many times Yuffie or Vincent was in my active team? very little. You wanna know why? By the time you master most of the materia's, everyone a carbon copy of each other with the only difference in limit breaks.

It's funny to say, but do you wanna know how I chose my active team in customizable RPG's? aesthetics's. :lol: That's the reason Fran and Balthier were always together on my active team in FFXII. :P

I think what is more important is how the combat system is implemented, rather than how much customization there can be. For example, the characters in Secret of Mana can use any weapon, but I found the combat enjoyable, whereas for Wild Arms 1 & 2, the degree of character specialization didn't take away the fact that I found the battles more tedious than watching paint dry.
True. I'm not saying it works for every game. I like customization to a degree. It's just in 90% of the RPG's I've played recently, the endgame some how doesn't have the same epic felling it did yesteryear (Battle wise). The articles writer gave a good example with a Dragoon with powerful curative abilities.

In any case, I play RPGs mainly for the story.
In any case, I agree once again, but if it was only for the story, I'd read a book or watch a movie. Just like the plot, battles play just as an important role in an RPG.

All in all, customization is like a double edged sword. While it might be fun to create a team that you could only think was possible in your imagination (and to some degree, provide more re-play value) it also takes away experimentation with different group of party members and IMO tense moments in battles.

Meh, Maybe I'm just stuck in my old way.

[seba_boi]

It's funny to say, but do you wanna know how I chose my active team in customizable RPG's? aesthetics's. :lol: That's the reason Fran and Balthier were always together on my active team in FFXII. :P


:) I'm glad I'm not the only one!...

[Redd]

I agree 100% Ryushe make magic users magic users and so on and so on.

[seba_boi]

I agree 100% Ryushe make magic users magic users and so on and so on.

Repetition Repetition is is my nature my nature...

[Ketaru]

So anyway, I was just thinking about how VII's materia system might've been more interesting to me.

I think I would have really liked it if you could equip materia, but at least include some "restrictions" to the characters. For example:
- Maybe Barret could've used Yellow materia 1.5-1.75x as effectively as other characters, but couldn't use Green materia at all (er, I haven't played for a while. Green is magic, right? Red is summons, blue is support, yellow is commands?).
- Characters like Cait Sith could use Green/Red materia 1.5-1.75x as effectively as other characters, but couldn't use Yellow materia at all.
- Varying degrees, with, for example, Cid being about to use Yellow materia at 1.25-1.5x effectiveness but Green/Red only at .5-.75x effectiveness. Or Vincent with Green/Red at 1.25-1.5x, but Yellow only at .5-.75x.
- Cloud can use all materia at an average rate since the heroes always seem to be the most "above average" of the gang.
- Maybe a character like Tifa could use all Green/Red/Yellow materia but not Blue.

[tenshi_a]

What's been killing FF games for me in recent years has been... lack of feeling for any of the characters, being forced to play stupid poorly implemented mini-games, being forced to waste time doing repetitive tasks that don't progress either the characters or the story but are just there to add to the time on the clock so they can advertise "80 hours!!" on the box.

If the 80 hours were spent customising, so there was a true feeling of progress and true ownership and control of the characters and their moves, I wouldn't mind so much... but no, tolerating poor physics in some mini-game that's extremely loosely connected to chocobos just because they're a fan-favourite... that's what it's going to force you to do for hours on end... that's the point where you're sitting thinking "well that was a real waste of time, why am I doing this??"...

My thought is that endless customisation is not necessarily a bad thing. But leave it in for the insane fans. If you want to make all your characters learn a complete skillset that's way distant from how they initially start out, and even out of character, just make it something you can only really do if you're nuts enough to play this game for 200+ hours. Then everyone's happy.

[Hajime Saitou]

So anyway

Oh well. I was hoping for some funny denials and further twisting of information, but it looks like you just ignored it instead.

Anyway indeed. :thumbsup:

[Ketaru]

Oh well. I was hoping for some funny denials and further twisting of information, but it looks like you just ignored it instead.

Anyway indeed. :thumbsup:

Interesting comment considering a majority of your response was simply saying that I was biased against VII simply because picking on VII is fashionable these days. I could easily have translated much of what I said into X's terms.

If you wish for a better articulation of my thoughts, read Ryushe's comment. From where I stand, why bother having more than 3 characters in the game? Was there even a character named Irvine in VIII? I made it a thing to avoid using him since his limit breaks were easily eclipsed by just about any other character. I guess he could use magic effectively....wait...so can everybody else.

[Hajime Saitou]

Interesting comment considering a majority of your response was simply saying that I was biased against VII simply because picking on VII is fashionable these days. I could easily have translated much of what I said into X's terms.

I'm sorry, but many of the things you said were just factually incorrect. I'm guessing you missed them the first time and then once again chose to ignore them once I presented the information right in front of you. I'm talking about the FFVI stuff here. You were acting like VII does all these things that VI doesn't, when it isn't true. Once again to only show the selected text:

But there is somewhat of a difference between VI and VIII, and that is the statistics of the characters. They grow in certain ways as they level and that progression is rather difficult to change. Nothing in the game will ever turn Relm into a melee unit. And Cyan will always be a lackluster mage (...or lackluster meleer for that matter, since his Ability just doesn't cut it compared to the other characters).

Magicite and equipment. When you leveled, you got a bonus depending on what magicite you had equipped. Yes, there is a way to change Relm into a melee unit, and yes, Cyan can be a good mage. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were not aware of this, and weren't just leaving it out for some reason. ^_^

It was all about what Magicite you had equipped when you leveled. It was easy to switch them around and plan ahead. It was easy to customize. I used this on all of my characters to enhance them. Furthermore, that genji glove and offering, you know, relics. The overpowered relics of FFVI that could allow anyone to be anything, if you wanted to do so. ;) Customization was right there in VI, and it had the same effect. Customize or normalize, it's up to you. Even if you just randomly choose your espers, you should still end up with everyone at 9999 health doing 9999 damage. It's no different than VII.

So yes, you are biased in that you choose to ignore certain pieces of information at the very least. Perhaps you just don't want to hear it from me?

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/554041/42631

From where I stand, why bother having more than 3 characters in the game?

Why have characters in an RPG? Umm...overall story, personal backstory, personal development, etc. I know what you're trying to say, but I'm sorry, that sentence is just waiting to get picked apart.

Was there even a character named Irvine in VIII?

Yeah, he was the guy who couldn't shoot when he needed to. :P

I made it a thing to avoid using him since his limit breaks were easily eclipsed by just about any other character. I guess he could use magic effectively....wait...so can everybody else.

You used magic in 8? :lol:

And there was only line and one paragraph indicating that what you said was biased. If that is a "majority" to you, I imagine you missed some of what I wrote?

[Ketaru]

Very well, if you want me to comment on VI...

Magicite and equipment. When you leveled, you got a bonus depending on what magicite you had equipped. Yes, there is a way to change Relm into a melee unit, and yes, Cyan can be a good mage. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were not aware of this, and weren't just leaving it out for some reason.

It was all about what Magicite you had equipped when you leveled. It was easy to switch them around and plan ahead. It was easy to customize. I used this on all of my characters to enhance them. Furthermore, that genji glove and offering, you know, relics. The overpowered relics of FFVI that could allow anyone to be anything, if you wanted to do so. Customization was right there in VI, and it had the same effect. Customize or normalize, it's up to you. Even if you just randomly choose your espers, you should still end up with everyone at 9999 health doing 9999 damage. It's no different than VII.

Tenshi_a says...

My thought is that endless customisation is not necessarily a bad thing. But leave it in for the insane fans. If you want to make all your characters learn a complete skillset that's way distant from how they initially start out, and even out of character, just make it something you can only really do if you're nuts enough to play this game for 200+ hours. Then everyone's happy.

That is the difference between VI and VII. The statistics you gain from levelling with an Esper was permanent. If the game is played as I imagine a lot of people play it (swapping espers around as people learn spells), statistic growth tends to still go in a clear direction. And if you chose to give, say, Relm more melee stats, you could not undo that 20 levels later if you are dissatisfied with the change. Although you can probably say that is all moot now that VI Advance introduced the extra dungeon where you get no EXP and only AP. Yet if you level the way players probably typically level their characters, the characters of Gogo and Umaro say what I expect customization should be like. Umaro has great stats and no customization. Gogo has all the customization around and horrible stats.

The statistic changes from materia were not permanent and there is no consequence of Cloud being able to cast Cure in one battle and Steal in the next. It was arbitrary who you had in your party save for the limit breaks, which besides Aeris, were almost all damage. It was only a matter of how many times the attack hits. You got some quirky ones like Cait Sith or Vincent, but it's that quirkiness that actually made them bad characters to use (Cait Sith's second limit break was very random, I dare say useless) and Vincent's rendered him uncontrollable for insubstantial statistic growth.

The difference between VI and VII is the difficulty of the customization involved in both games. In VI, it was almost deviant to grow the characters in a way that made it possible for them to do everything. In VII, it's as simple as spending 5 minutes in the menu from one battle to the next. And yet, in VI, there are still things that are off-limits to most of the other characters, Gogo being the only exception and giving up stats and the abilities to use Espers because of it. Only Locke can Steal with the exception of that stealing knife, only Relm can control monsters, only Strago can use Blue Magic, only Shadow can throw weapons, only Gau can 'morph'. Oddly enough, if you want to bring "overall story, personal backstory, personal development, etc", the characters' behavior in battle actually helps to back up these things, much like how Vivi being a black mage is central to his character, or Magus from Chrono Trigger not being able to Double or Triple tech with the other characters without equipping a certain piece of gear.

[Hajime Saitou]

Very well, if you want me to comment on VI...



Tenshi_a says...

Everything below is nice and all, but my post was a direct response to these statements, which I notice you left out of this response in favor of completely new topics:

1.

But there is somewhat of a difference between VI and VIII, and that is the statistics of the characters. They grow in certain ways as they level and that progression is rather difficult to change.

This statement is false.

2.

Nothing in the game will ever turn Relm into a melee unit.

This statement is false. In addition, you don't even need to use magicite to do this. Normal leveling with proper equipment and relics(customization!) can cause Relm to hit for 79,992 damage with a normal attack command. If that isn't a melee unit, I don't know what is.

3.

And Cyan will always be a lackluster mage (...or lackluster meleer for that matter, since his Ability just doesn't cut it compared to the other characters).

All of that is false.

You said things that just aren't true, no matter how you spin it. Putting that aside, you just started a completely new conversation in order to move away from what you previously said. Why you continue to dodge that issue is beyond me. But ok, I will respond to this new stuff.

That is the difference between VI and VII. The statistics you gain from levelling with an Esper was permanent.

Seeing as how you would hit the cap for one stat eventually it doesn't matter which ones you raise first. Also you don't even need to hit the cap to be able to do 9999 damage and have 9999 health. So yes, they were permament, and as you wrote down there, there is no consequence in leveling up one statistic before another. Besides when you reach the higher levels with good equipment it doesn't really matter. Everyone has 9999 health and does 9999 damage, just as in VII.

If the game is played as I imagine a lot of people play it (swapping espers around as people learn spells), statistic growth tends to still go in a clear direction.

I first played the game on the SNES before I did anything with the internet. Just looking at the game, well over a decade ago without having any knowledge about how anyone else played the game, I was able to determine two things:

1. When you level, you get a bonus depending on what magicite you have equipped.

2. This a good thing. I should use it.

I still swapped espers around as people needed them. I just put them where I wanted them to be when someone was about to level. This isn't rocket science. Anyone can figure this out.

And if you chose to give, say, Relm more melee stats, you could not undo that 20 levels later if you are dissatisfied with the change.

Her magic was higher and would have reached the cap of 128 points sooner than her physical attack, so I don't see how you could be dissatisfied. You could level her melee early on or later on, but you're still going to do it.

Although you can probably say that is all moot now that VI Advance introduced the extra dungeon where you get no EXP and only AP.

I haven't played the GBA version and I don't intend to, so I'll just take your word for it.

Yet if you level the way players probably typically level their characters

What typical? Magicite good. Equip magicite. Me happy. It's so easy, a caveman could do it! :shifty:

the characters of Gogo and Umaro say what I expect customization should be like. Umaro has great stats and no customization. Gogo has all the customization around and horrible stats.

Just as a reminder, Umaro and Gogo could not equip magicite. Also, Umaro and Gogo got to stay on the airship all the time because they sucked. If that's how you want characters to be, I'll just say that I'm glad you don't work for Square-Enix. Were they different? They sure were. Innovation does not guarantee quali...wait didn't I just say this somewhere else. Yeah, it doesn't matter if the characters are different or not, all that matters is that whatever system the game chooses works. If it's not for me then I'm certainly not going to make a topic on a message board asking if all of these games should have been different just because I didn't like them.

The statistic changes from materia were not permanent and there is no consequence of Cloud being able to cast Cure in one battle and Steal in the next.

No there was not, and I'm going to stop here because I finally got it. I finally got everything.

You want these games to be something they aren't. Final Fantasy VII is set up where the characters aren't specific classes, or drastically different. There are still differences between them, but not to the degree that you want. And guess what, they are supposed to be like that. That wasn't a fluke. The materia is the customization in the game. It's supposed to be like that. If you want something else, play a different RPG. I like games with no customization and I like games with full customization. There is nothing wrong with the "type" of RPG it is.

The difference between VI and VII is the difficulty of the customization involved in both games. In VI, it was almost deviant to grow the characters in a way that made it possible for them to do everything. In VII, it's as simple as spending 5 minutes in the menu from one battle to the next.

Ok one more thing. It wasn't deviant at all. You just had to switch out a piece of magicite. 5 seconds and you're good to go. And yes, changing materia was fast and easy, which is what it was supposed to be. Didn't you say it was time consuming earlier? Anyway, yeah, the game is supposed to be like that. It works like that, quite well. I wouldn't sit around worrying that it wasn't some other type of RPG.

And yet, in VI, there are still things that are off-limits to most of the other characters, Gogo being the only exception and giving up stats and the abilities to use Espers because of it. Only Locke can Steal with the exception of that stealing knife, only Relm can control monsters, only Strago can use Blue Magic, only Shadow can throw weapons, only Gau can 'morph'. Oddly enough, if you want to bring "overall story, personal backstory, personal development, etc", the characters' behavior in battle actually helps to back up these things, much like how Vivi being a black mage is central to his character, or Magus from Chrono Trigger not being able to Double or Triple tech with the other characters without equipping a certain piece of gear.

Different kind of game. You'll notice that 4 and 6(and 11) were the only ones to do this in the FF franchise. I'm not going to hold that against the other ones at all. Those are huge perks for 4 and 6, not flaws of the rest.

[Ketaru]

Yes, I wanted VII to be different. I would've liked it if I didn't have to view putting Red XIII in my party as yanking him along to keep his level up along with the others. (yes, like somebody else, I'm somebody who likes to keep every playable character on equal levels. And I would like to have a different experience when I use every one). I'd almost say it was beginning of the whole customization free-for-all trend in the FF games lately. VIII was free-for-all customizable. X was way free-for-all customizable. It think it's far more interesting to be presented a problem in the game, and have to make strategies with what the game provides me rather than everybody being able to go in with fully powered Cures. I finally got around to playing Chrono Cross and while I don't think people give it enough credit in certain respects, it struck me very early in the game play that everybody can load up on healing spells and that the only thing you really have to work around is the rigid statistics of the characters and the element system. How about going back to a time when every playable character had his/her purpose in battle and you had to find strategies using what is giving to you? Or if there is versatility, you have to give something up for that versatility? That's the whole point of the thread. It's too "carefree", so to speak.

[Hajime Saitou]

I'd almost say it was beginning of the whole customization free-for-all trend in the FF games lately.

I read it all, just so you know I'm not ignoring anything. I just wanted to comment on this. 2, 3, and 5 were all like this too. Once again you're picking on 7 because it's a big target. Also X-2 and XII were free-for-all customizable as well, so it wasn't just 7, 8, and 10, but you didn't try to say that so I'm just mentioning it to get everything out there.

[Ketaru]

3 and 5 had job systems. Every character could be anything, but never all at once. 2 was customizable (and exploitable) and I never liked it. X-2 had a job system that let you change jobs while in battle, but you had to do it midway during battle, and resulted in statistic changes and a change in usable abilities. I haven't played 12, and more than likely since I heard it was like 11, never will...well, actually the main deterrent to me playing 12 was the price tag. It took way too long to drop from 50 dollars. I might play it soon.

[Hajime Saitou]

3 and 5 had job systems. Every character could be anything, but never all at once.

I know, you had to switch between them, like materia. :thumbsup:

2 was customizable (and exploitable) and I never liked it.

It was just bad, likable or not. Although I agree with you in that I didn't like it either.

[ryushe]

Oddly enough, if you want to bring "overall story, personal backstory, personal development, etc", the characters' behavior in battle actually helps to back up these things, much like how Vivi being a black mage is central to his character, or Magus from Chrono Trigger not being able to Double or Triple tech with the other characters without equipping a certain piece of gear.
I agree 100% with this. That's why I love FFIX. There were parts that they used the characters skill set as a way to advance the story. For example, Zidane was a nimble thief and there were certain parts in the story that needed his skill to advance the story. Sure it could be done in other customizable RPG's with different fashions, but little things like that showing the characters strengths and traits that is exclusive to them in battle is nice.

I read it all, just so you know I'm not ignoring anything. I just wanted to comment on this. 2, 3, and 5 were all like this too. Once again you're picking on 7 because it's a big target. Also X-2 and XII were free-for-all customizable as well, so it wasn't just 7, 8, and 10, but you didn't try to say that so I'm just mentioning it to get everything out there.
Honestly, How can you not? FFVII was arguably the most popular FF square ever made. It's impact on the mainstream audience is known by everyone that into games, RPG's or not. So when the most popular FF creates a new skill system that everyone seems to love, of course they're gonna try to evolve and expand on it. Just look at the sales compared to FFVII and FFIX.

[seba_boi]

Geez, this thread has gone looooooooooooong....

FFX had character-specific abilities (most likely influenced by FFIX)... Granted they can all learn the same magic/abilities, but throughout most of the story (most likely 'til you reach the final boss), the characters excelled in the respective job that was given to them... And the arduous task of completing the sphere grid pretty much prevents character clones...

[Hajime Saitou]

I agree 100% with this. That's why I love FFIX.

That isn't unique to FFIX. IV and VI did this, and I think a lot better. Even so, it's still quite common, and even FFVII did that. They may not have had the skills in battle, but Cid still did his stuff with the Tiny Bronco as well as the airship, Aeris with her materia, Yuffie with your materia, Barret with smashing stuff when it needed to be smashed, etc. Just because a skill isn't usable in battle doesn't mean it isn't still used for the story, background, and development of the characters. That type of story event is found in most RPGs. Characters almost always have unique personalities and physical traits, and games usually do something with that.

Honestly, How can you not?

I know. It's this huge target, so why not go for it? The only problem is I'll be there to point out why it's a bad target, big or not. So far I see a lot, "I wanted something different" and that's it. There's nothing wrong with that, but FFVII wasn't even the first FF to do these things.

So when the most popular FF creates a new skill system that everyone seems to love, of course they're gonna try to evolve and expand on it. Just look at the sales compared to FFVII and FFIX.

There's nothing wrong with thinking up ways to improve something as long as you don't forget that it worked fine in the first place, and that different systems can and should work in different ways. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it doesn't work, and just because you do like something doesn't mean it does work. Fortunately there are hundreds of RPGs out there, and plenty of them have what Ketaru is looking for.

And the arduous task of completing the sphere grid pretty much prevents character clones...

It was far too easy to progress through the sphere grid, and all of my characters were clones. The thing with materia compared to VIII and X is that you only have so many slots to put your materia in(and limited copies of certain materia, especially the powerful ones) whereas you could readily junction every stat and hit every sphere grid location. There was no limiting factor in VIII or X. The only difference in the end was their limit breaks.

[Ketaru]

There's nothing wrong with thinking up ways to improve something as long as you don't forget that it worked fine in the first place, and that different systems can and should work in different ways. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it doesn't work, and just because you do like something doesn't mean it does work. Fortunately there are hundreds of RPGs out there, and plenty of them have what Ketaru is looking for.

Just to make a note, don't confuse what I've been talking about with general dislike of VII. I played it through and I actually like it a lot, like the music and overall complexity of the plot. Like I said, the big disservice that the materia system does for me is that it does not give me any incentive to use every character of the game (even though I like to keep them all equally levelled, switching from character to character doesn't "change the experience" for me, so to speak).

It was far too easy to progress through the sphere grid, and all of my characters were clones. The thing with materia compared to VIII and X is that you only have so many slots to put your materia in(and limited copies of certain materia, especially the powerful ones) whereas you could readily junction every stat and hit every sphere grid location. There was no limiting factor in VIII or X. The only difference in the end was their limit breaks.

Perhaps I was unfair in constantly calling out VII in this thread, because I dislike the X system even more. It really is far too easy, and even if you generally stayed on every character's 'default path', there was some strange ways to exploit the grid and spheres you get. For example, you can get Yuna Holy very early in the game by just deviating from Rikku's grid maybe 5 or 6 spheres to get her Holy, then just use a White Magic Sphere for Yuna. It doesn't help that, above and beyond the fact that all the characters could end up potentially being very similar to each other, that you could switch party members within battle at almost no penalty.

[Hajime Saitou]

Just to make a note, don't confuse what I've been talking about with general dislike of VII. I played it through and I actually like it a lot, like the music and overall complexity of the plot.

Note taken, and just to clear the air, that wasn't directed at you or ryushe. That was just a general statement. There are all kinds of RPGs and they aren't all for everyone, but just because an entire kind of RPG might not be for someone, that doesn't make it bad. That's what I was trying to get across.

Like I said, the big disservice that the materia system does for me is that it does not give me any incentive to use every character of the game (even though I like to keep them all equally levelled, switching from character to character doesn't "change the experience" for me, so to speak).

Perhaps I can offer a different viewpoint, if it's just about incentive. I usually have a few characters that I like above the rest in any given RPG, that is if you can even choose your group. I almost always use those people, even if they suck, and even if they make a bad team. If it's just an impossible scenario, I won't do it, but if I simply have to take a penalty, I don't mind. However, in FFVII, the "suck" and "bad team" concepts aren't a problem. It's a new system meant to be played differently, and I accept it as such. You see it as no incentive to use every character, while I see it as an incentive to use just the characters that I like, with, as you just said, no penalty. Even in games where I do not dislike anyone, I never feel the need to use them all, so I can't empathize with your desire to do so, but I still think I get it to a certain degree. Still, if you don't feel like there's any incentive to do that in this game, then why not just leave it alone and play differently. Different game, different playstyle? I'm pretty stubborn when it comes to using characters I don't like, but if I just have to, then I do so. I change when I need to, or when the experience would be very sub-par through my normal methods.

Perhaps I was unfair in constantly calling out VII in this thread, because I dislike the X system even more.

That's all I ask. VII isn't the only one you can apply your statements to. Needless to say, based on my previous posts about those games, I agree with you in this case about X.

[Nash]

Just like the good ole days on the Shinsengumi Forums. lol

Saitou delivers the finishing strike and brings peace to the thread.

XD

[JFaulkner]

However, in FFVII, the "suck" and "bad team" concepts aren't a problem. It's a new system meant to be played differently, and I accept it as such. You see it as no incentive to use every character, while I see it as an incentive to use just the characters that I like, with, as you just said, no penalty.

The main incentive to use all the characters in FFVII, for me, was to resolve some character-specific plotline and to get all the limit breaks. For example, there's a little piece in Wutai which only plays out if Yuffie is in your team. It might make things better for the "too much customization" brigade if each character had some materia which only they could use.

Do you know how many times Yuffie or Vincent was in my active team? very little. You wanna know why? By the time you master most of the materia's, everyone a carbon copy of each other with the only difference in limit breaks.
There are differences in stats as well - for example, Barrett has much more natural HP than Yuffie. You can beef up Yuffie's HP with HP Plus, but that means wasting a materia slot. And it takes a fair time to build up a set of maxed out materia so that you get a "carbon copy" of 3 characters. The main reason why e.g. Aeris was given the cold shoulder in my team, from a purely battling perspective, was because her HP was too low, and I waste too much time curing her. Also, she inflicts less damage in comparison to bigger hitters like Cloud and Cid.

[Holy Knight]

The way I see it is that endless customization is fine as long as the game demands diversity.

This is, of course, a very difficult balance to achieve and why we get so much discussion about it. Best way to go about it would be self-imposed restrictions, but that's not something everyone wants to do.

I thought FFXII almost had it. The license grid was limited by the number of enemies you'd killed and even into the end-game if you hadn't gone into tens of hours long massacres. I thought it was well done.

However, FFX's Sphere Grid was not as limited since then it was all about the quality of "experience" that the monster gave, not the quantity you killed, thus imbalance.

[Malon]

Customization in Final Fantasy has proved over and over again to be junk.

Every other RPG seems to be able to do it decent though when they try.

[Tidusauron12]

I liked X's grid system a lot. XII's was awkward but I got used to it. DQ VIII was awesome as well...

I guess I'm...neutral?

X's system was fine, if you rule out all the characters eventually becoming masters of ALL abilities... then again, X wasn't the first to do something like that.

I think RPGs need to go through some major changes, they're starting to get kinda' boring to me.