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Egyptpower
September 4th, 2007, 07:31 PM
When Mecha fans talk about the term Hybrid Robot, they always mention Evangelion as the pioneer who started it all. I agree it did create a market for a Mecha Genre different from both the old school hot blooded Super Robot and the dark, realistic Real Robot. But was it really the pioneer?

Since discovering Yoshiyuki Tomino's dark classic Space Runaway Ideon, which also served as the inspiration for Hideaki Anno to create Evangelion, I've listed it as a Super Type at first but then I began to wonder about certain elements in the anime that balances both the Super Type and the Real Type.

1. First its Super Type elements:

Since Tomino originally started his entry in the mecha genre with the typical Super Robot shows that were popular at the time, it's not suprising to find so many Super Type characteristics in Ideon.

Although at first sight, a rather humble robot in comparison to other mecha, Ideon is without a doubt, one of the most powerful mechas ever. So powerful that it could destroy an entire galaxy. Connected by an awesome power source called the Ide Energy, I would dare agree with sources saying that it is possibly one of the most destructive devices portrayed in all media in terms of raw destructive power.

It has an arsenal of powerful weapons that a Super Type would posses:

- Black Hole Cannon, which as the name implies, creates a miniature black hole capable of massive destruction. While devastating, this is actually Ideon's least powerful super weapon.

- The long Ideon Sword, beam of pure light emitted from each of Ideon's hands. While the beam's destructive power is immense, its most peculiar quality is its length. While adjustable, its maximum length of the sword is depicted as being quite possibly infinite.

- Of course neither could compare to the awesome power that is the Ideon Gun, the Gun is directly powered by the Ideon's Ide energy to produce an enormous white wave of energy which destroys literally anything in its path in a forty five-degree angle, including starships, planets, and even galaxies. The Gun is so powerful that even the crew of both the Ideon and the Solo Ship were actually kinda terrified of its awesome destructive power.

2. Now, for its Real Type elements:

At first, it seems to have more of a Real Type appearance than a Super Type. In the early half of the series, Ideon possesed only an array of missiles and cannons as well as limited melee and defensive shields before it recieves its big guns as the series progresses.

The three large armored vechiles that combine into Ideon look more like the Real vechiles than the Super vechiles and its transformation sequences reminds me of the sequence used in Tomino's 1979 Real Robot pioneer Mobile Suit Gundam than any of the sequences used in Super Robot animes. Plus, it has a very realistic piloting system compared to most Super Robot shows at the time.

Unlike most Super Robot shows at the time that don't make much attempt to explain the powerful abilities of the robots, Ideon at least tries to explain the awesome yet complex power of the Id Energy.

It's plot goes for a more dark War Drama feel, common in Real Robot shows instead of the typical Save The World type of plot used in Super Robot shows. It's character developments involving the struggle of the main cast, the tragic friction between the crew of the Solo Ship and the humanoid alien civilization known as the Buff Clan, the progressive story of an at first forbidden romance between the Solo's captain Bes Jordan and the daughter of the Buff Clan's military commander, Karala Ajiba and of course Tomino's well known "touch" for creating a huge death tool in his work. Although a number of these elements were indeed used in several Super Robot shows, they were mostly used to greater and a more dark effect in shows of the Real Robot genre.

The availability of Ideon's Real Type characteristics isn't really suprising since Tomino worked on Space Runaway Ideon after finishing the original 1979 show of the Mobile Suit Gundam saga. Even when he was working in shows of the Super Robot genre, he still used dark storylines that wasn't found in Super Robot shows at the time, the earliest example of this Tomino "formula" in the Mecha genre was the 1977 Super Machine Zambot 3.

In conclusion, I believe that Space Runaway Ideon is the real pioneer of the Hybrid Robot Genre that was made popular by Evangelion and continues to have a huge fanbase due to the success of animes like RahXephon. What about you?

Soluzar
September 4th, 2007, 07:36 PM
I have been known to say that Ideon is a Super Robot type trapped in a Real Robot type anime. It definitely mixed elements of both genre, which is hardly surprising when you consider that it was created by the same man who basically defined what we think of as the Real Robot genre.

Ideon is definitely a hybrid, perhaps leaning more towards the Super Robot side, but definitely with elements of both genre.

By the way, please allow me to state as I so often do that "Real Robot" is a terrible name for a genre which is basically sci-fi.

Levon
September 4th, 2007, 08:19 PM
I consider it very much a hybrid.

Mazinkaiser
September 4th, 2007, 08:24 PM
Same here, I think its a hybrid, especially since it mostly acts like a mobile gun platform for most of the first half of the series.

Chousho
September 4th, 2007, 08:33 PM
How has this thread existed with the presence of Prons?

Vaikyuko
September 5th, 2007, 11:15 AM
Ideon the anime is a hybrid, doesn't mean I call the robot anything but a super robot.

Soluzar
September 5th, 2007, 11:20 AM
Ya know, this topic has inspired me. I'm not going to deal with this horrible terminology any longer. The term "Super Robot" will stay due to the fact it has been officially used by Super Robot anison lyrics. The other genre I will now begin to call "Military Robot", because saying "Real Robot" makes me feel like I'm abusing the English language.

Egyptpower
September 5th, 2007, 12:11 PM
Ya know, this topic has inspired me. I'm not going to deal with this horrible terminology any longer. The term "Super Robot" will stay due to the fact it has been officially used by Super Robot anison lyrics. The other genre I will now begin to call "Military Robot", because saying "Real Robot" makes me feel like I'm abusing the English language.

Keep in mind, that there are several animes that fall into the Real Type but aren't really Military Robots like Patlabor although there were robots used for the military in that show, the main theme was on the police force (since it was more of a character driven anime than a mecha anime).

Soluzar
September 5th, 2007, 12:41 PM
Keep in mind, that there are several animes that fall into the Real Type but aren't really Military Robots like Patlabor although there were robots used for the military in that show, the main theme was on the police force (since it was more of a character driven anime than a mecha anime).
Then there's got to be another, more appropriate term. I still say the existing terminology is a an absolute steaming pile.

Magami No ER
September 5th, 2007, 01:32 PM
Another term? I can only think of what such an all encompassing giant robot is not , and that is "super".
Or perhaps the use of some strange portmanteau would suit you?

Soluzar
September 5th, 2007, 01:39 PM
Another term? I can only think of what such an all encompassing giant robot is not , and that is "super".
It's also not "real".

Or perhaps the use of some strange portmanteau would suit you?
Probably. As long as it is logical.

Vaikyuko
September 5th, 2007, 01:56 PM
To be honest, I was under the impression "realistic robot" was the proper term, not "real robot". With that, you get rid of any remote misconceptions, because realistic =/= real...

Suiko Eiji
September 6th, 2007, 05:41 AM
The availability of Ideon's Real Type characteristics isn't really suprising since Tomino worked on Space Runaway Ideon after finishing the original 1979 show of the Mobile Suit Gundam saga. Even when he was working in shows of the Super Robot genre, he still used dark storylines that wasn't found in Super Robot shows at the time, the earliest example of this Tomino "formula" in the Mecha genre was the 1977 Super Machine Zambot 3.

I'll go ahead and be the lone person to disagree, it seems. I wouldn't say that Tomino or Ideon pioneered the hybrid styling. The hybrid presentation that you presented and others have argued are similar in many of Tomino's more well recognized works from '77 - '82 (Zambot 3, MS Gundam, Ideon, Xabungle) but, they retain this similarity out of necessity. Before Tomino came along with Zambot, there was only the "Super Robot" - mostly in the image of how Nagai Go envisioned them in Mazinger Z, Getter Robo, and others. In order to get his work published by Sunrise at the time, there needed to be a "Super Robot" element(s) present so as to compete with the other programs airing at the time.

Tomino wanted a different story and we see it in the elements which we now consider "Real Robot" (BTW, I'm kinda with Soluzar in that a new term should be sought after) but Tomino merely paved that way for the ability for mecha animation to grow into more serious, more "hard sci-fi" presentation. I would say that some of the first realistic-militaristic mecha animation didn't come out until 1982 as other people in the industry began emulating Tomino's style from Gundam and Ideon - namely Superdimension Fortress Macross, soon followed by Amored Trooper Votoms and Superdimension Century Orguss in 1983 and Tomino's own return to the genre in 1985 with Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam. Arguably, Macross can be considered a hybrid between realistic-militaristic robot and Space Opera in the vein of Space Battleship Yamato and Galaxy Express 999.

To give Anno some credit, the idea of "super robots" in Evangelion is merely a front. I've always considered Eva to be more about its psychological elements (no matter how much I think hardcore Eva fans are full of it) than about the robots themselves. I'm sure he pulled a lot from Ideon but we're pointing out how it straddles two mecha sub-genre; Eva, it seems, is merely a series that happens to have giant robots.

Quiddity
September 10th, 2007, 06:51 PM
To give Anno some credit, the idea of "super robots" in Evangelion is merely a front. I've always considered Eva to be more about its psychological elements (no matter how much I think hardcore Eva fans are full of it) than about the robots themselves. I'm sure he pulled a lot from Ideon but we're pointing out how it straddles two mecha sub-genre; Eva, it seems, is merely a series that happens to have giant robots.

Yet one could make the same argument about the robots being a "front" in Mobile Suit Gundam and other works of Tomino (in some shows like Dunbine the mecha were not originally intended, but forced upon Tomino). I'd say like with other aspects of Eva, one could say Anno brought it to a new extreme, but I wouldn't say its something Anno brought to the genre or revolutionized the genre with (although to be fair to you that's never a statement you made so I'm not sure whether that was your implication or not :P)

Suiko Eiji
September 10th, 2007, 08:00 PM
Yet one could make the same argument about the robots being a "front" in Mobile Suit Gundam and other works of Tomino (in some shows like Dunbine the mecha were not originally intended, but forced upon Tomino).

I'm intrigued by this. Please go on!

I'd say like with other aspects of Eva, one could say Anno brought it to a new extreme, but I wouldn't say its something Anno brought to the genre or revolutionized the genre with (although to be fair to you that's never a statement you made so I'm not sure whether that was your implication or not :P)

I didn't intend to say Anno revolutionized the genre, I like your wording of "to a new extreme". I think Anno, like Tomino, saw an area in which the general genre of mecha could go and other series that mimicked or borrowed like qualities each developed into their own sub-genre.

Egyptpower
September 20th, 2007, 12:30 PM
Then there's got to be another, more appropriate term. I still say the existing terminology is a an absolute steaming pile.

How about Mobilesuit Robot or maybe just Mobile Robot.