I must be the only one. Am I?

[Naraku]

I haven't liked any Final Fantasy games since Final Fantasy IX. I've only played from FFV - FF XII, none before, and I really haven't liked any of the ones after 9 so far.

Final Fantasy X was decent, but I don't see it ranking anywhere near as high as previous games in the series. I did beat this one, but only about a month or two ago, so it basically took me like 4 years to finally beat this game.

Final Fantasy XII was one of the worst RPGs I've ever played, i'm still upset I bought it. I really have always had a hard time getting into it. The combat is extremely boring - It's like playing a piece of crap MMORPG offline. I much prefer the old school just stand in a straight line and go back and forth method. Also, the liscense system was a pain. The sphere grid was a good idea I admit, but this liscense system seems like a cheap knock off.

The main characters seem to be getting more homosexual with every new game. Tidus wasn't so bad, but he was annoying, and I think he wanted Wakkas milk dud. At the start of XII, I saw Reks and thought he had potential, then they had to kill him off only to bring in Vaan, one of the most annoying characters I've ever seen. He's annoying, he's immature, he sucks at everything, but think she's the ****! It's so annoying.

Maybe I'm just a sucker for nostalgia, because I'm still buying old PS1 Rpgs that I never played, even over new RPGs. It just seems like the older Final Fantasy games were leaps and bounds better to the new gen ones.

Edit: Don't feel like making another thread. But does anyone prefer any RPGs over any of the Final Fantasy series? One of my all time favorites is The Legend of Dragoon. A lot of people found it too simple, but it was one of my favorites. Also, Valkyrie Profile. Gotta be one of the most artistic RPGs I have ever played.

[Samurai Drifter]

The main characters seem to be getting more homosexual with every new game. Tidus wasn't so bad...
I dunno, Tidus looked a lot like Meg Ryan.

[Naraku]

I dunno, Tidus looked a lot like Meg Ryan.

Haha, yeah. I dunno, he had some sexuality issues.

[ryushe]

I haven't liked any Final Fantasy games since Final Fantasy IX. I've only played from FFV - FF XII, none before, and I really haven't liked any of the ones after 9 so far.

Final Fantasy X was decent, but I don't see it ranking anywhere near as high as previous games in the series. I did beat this one, but only about a month or two ago, so it basically took me like 4 years to finally beat this game.

Final Fantasy XII was one of the worst RPGs I've ever played, i'm still upset I bought it. I really have always had a hard time getting into it. The combat is extremely boring - It's like playing a piece of crap MMORPG offline. I much prefer the old school just stand in a straight line and go back and forth method. Also, the liscense system was a pain. The sphere grid was a good idea I admit, but this liscense system seems like a cheap knock off.

The main characters seem to be getting more homosexual with every new game. Tidus wasn't so bad, but he was annoying, and I think he wanted Wakkas milk dud. At the start of XII, I saw Reks and thought he had potential, then they had to kill him off only to bring in Vaan, one of the most annoying characters I've ever seen. He's annoying, he's immature, he sucks at everything, but think she's the ****! It's so annoying.

Maybe I'm just a sucker for nostalgia, because I'm still buying old PS1 Rpgs that I never played, even over new RPGs. It just seems like the older Final Fantasy games were leaps and bounds better to the new gen ones.
*Stamped with ryushe's seal of approval*

[Naraku]

Edit: Don't feel like making another thread. But does anyone prefer any RPGs over any of the Final Fantasy series? One of my all time favorites is The Legend of Dragoon. A lot of people found it too simple, but it was one of my favorites. Also, Valkyrie Profile. Gotta be one of the most artistic RPGs I have ever played.

I added that to the original post. I don't really see any point to making a new thread, don't want to flood the forums with my nonsense.

[Sendo Takeshi]

FFIX and FFXII were pretty well done. FFX was the bigger pile of crap to come out on the PS2. All that hype for nothing different. The Sphere-grid system wasn't anything amazing. You just fill it up and make your squad ridiculously broken.

FFT is still the best FF game to come out in the Sony era.

[ryushe]

FFXII was the bigger pile of crap to come out on the PS2. All that hype for nothing different. The license system wasn't anything amazing. You just fill it up and make your squad ridiculously broken.
Fixed.

Cause' you know I had too.

[Naraku]

FFIX and FFXII were pretty well done. FFX was the bigger pile of crap to come out on the PS2. All that hype for nothing different. The Sphere-grid system wasn't anything amazing. You just fill it up and make your squad ridiculously broken.
FFT is still the best FF game to come out in the Sony era.

I don't know how you can say that. The sphere grid was actually an original idea, instead of just the "gain a level" system. My squad wasn't ridiculously broken either, and i never really took the time to level up, I had no trouble beating the game. The liscense system was like a blatant rip from the sphere grid, with more tedious things to unlock.

[Sendo Takeshi]

I don't know how you can say that. The sphere grid was actually an original idea, instead of just the "gain a level" system. My squad wasn't ridiculously broken either, and i never really took the time to level up, I had no trouble beating the game. The liscense system was like a blatant rip from the sphere grid, with more tedious things to unlock.


The Sphere-Grid was nothing original. I had almost filled up my Sphere-Grid by level 50 and my characters were all sporting the same magics and all that funky jazz. And guess what? None of it mattered in the end, aside from the HP+ and MP+ spheres. At least with the License-Grid, the stuff you unlocked, actually had use for battle.

And I really don't think there was anything tedious to unlock. Once you got those bangles that double your LP, you were set and your License Grid would have been done in a matter of minutes.

[Naraku]

The Sphere-Grid was nothing original. I had almost filled up my Sphere-Grid by level 50 and my characters were all sporting the same magics and all that funky jazz. And guess what? None of it mattered in the end, aside from the HP+ and MP+ spheres. At least with the License-Grid, the stuff you unlocked, actually had use for battle.

And I really don't think there was anything tedious to unlock. Once you got those bangles that double your LP, you were set and your License Grid would have been done in a matter of minutes.

Well obviously if you maxed out the whole sphere grid people would have the same abilities, however I never did that.

Bold: Oh yeah, I forgot that unlocked HP, MP, strength, abilities, magic, etc.. aren't things you need for battle.

[ryushe]

At least with the License-Grid, the stuff you unlocked, actually had use for battle.

Now Sendo, The day you find Horology, Addle, Expose, Shades of Black, Shear, Wither, Step Attack, etc....so on and so on, useful in battle, Is the day I dub FFXII, not only the best Final Fantasy or RPG ever conceived by gods but also, I will play this game from now on with the same desire as I do when I make love to a woman...

[The Million Dollar Prons]

Way to skip eleven! =(

I'd have loved eleven if there was more population

[Chousho]

Way to skip eleven! =(

I'd have loved eleven if there was more population
Which server are you at? I'm on Phoenix and it seems to be pretty nicely distributed.

I think the big problem with people leaving FFXI is

Lack of updates with the graphics
Lack of Japanese IME for US players (thus a sort of hierarchy)
Not enough <Tarutaru> <Backhand blow> <Job> <Can I get it?>

[Sendo Takeshi]

Bold: Oh yeah, I forgot that unlocked HP, MP, strength, abilities, magic, etc.. aren't things you need for battle.

Are you sure? Because running around with low HP isn't exactly the most ideal thing to do in an FF game. That stuff was more necessary than any magic in the game. All you needed was Wakka/Tidus/Auron on your squad with some Yuna healing and you beat the game hands down.

Now Sendo, The day you find Horology, Addle, Expose, Shades of Black, Shear, Wither, Step Attack, etc....so on and so on, useful in battle, Is the day I dub FFXII, not only the best Final Fantasy or RPG ever conceived by gods but also, I will play this game from now on with the same desire as I do when I make love to a woman...

Because not all of those are actually gonna be useful. But things like Bubble, those are definitely needed mid-battle. Remember, we're talking about the same guys that had a hand with FFT and FFTA here. Remember? The game where you had to USE all the magic stuff to actually win?*

And magic was actually a lot more effective in FFXII than FFX.

*Assuming you didn't wh0re out Orlandu.

[Hajime Saitou]

I haven't liked any Final Fantasy games since Final Fantasy IX. I've only played from FFV - FF XII, none before, and I really haven't liked any of the ones after 9 so far.

You're not the only one. The only difference would be that I have played them all, and I didn't like VIII.

The sphere grid was a good idea I admit, but this liscense system seems like a cheap knock off.

The sphere grid was a good concept, but it had terrible execution. The idea of travelling down different paths for character improvement sounds great. Too bad that's not really how it worked. In this game all you did was walk down the same path as everyone else. Everyone ended up being the same. And overpowered.

The main characters seem to be getting more homosexual with every new game.

Yes.

Maybe I'm just a sucker for nostalgia, because I'm still buying old PS1 Rpgs that I never played, even over new RPGs.

Yes! Keep doing that. Go back even further than that if you can. The SNES has a gigantic library of great RPGs. The NES has its fair share as well.

Edit: Don't feel like making another thread. But does anyone prefer any RPGs over any of the Final Fantasy series? One of my all time favorites is The Legend of Dragoon. A lot of people found it too simple, but it was one of my favorites. Also, Valkyrie Profile. Gotta be one of the most artistic RPGs I have ever played.

Are you asking if there are other RPGs just as good, if not better than the FF games? The answer to that is obviously yes. Moreso now than ever ;). Hopefully XIII will be an all around good game.

I hear SE finally stopped lying to us. They finally admitted that the main character is not male. You know, just like X and XII.

[Tidusauron12]

I reccomend the Shadow Hearts series (#1-2, #3 sucks).

[Tom Servo]

You can't fault 'em for trying something different with FFXII, I liked the idea that you could travel from one side of the known world in FFXII to the other by foot, that all the areas in the game were logically connected to each other... except Pharoas and Bermecia, or was it Bianorium?* You know, the floating island thingy.

The problem with the battle system wasn't that it was free roaming, there was just nothing dramatic about it at all - the same goes for the story line... where the hell did the Baphomet come from anyway?!

*There's a problem with a game if you can't even remeber the names of the locations or characters -_-

[Naraku]

Are you sure? Because running around with low HP isn't exactly the most ideal thing to do in an FF game. That stuff was more necessary than any magic in the game. All you needed was Wakka/Tidus/Auron on your squad with some Yuna healing and you beat the game hands down.



Because not all of those are actually gonna be useful. But things like Bubble, those are definitely needed mid-battle. Remember, we're talking about the same guys that had a hand with FFT and FFTA here. Remember? The game where you had to USE all the magic stuff to actually win?*

And magic was actually a lot more effective in FFXII than FFX.

*Assuming you didn't wh0re out Orlandu.

I was being sarcastic when I said that.

I agree with you though that Tactics was one of the best. Only thing I didn't like was the length of normal battles. In some ways it was fun, because every battle was a struggle and took strategy. But in a way that makes it hard to come back to after one go. I thought it was funny sometimes in tactics, I'd kill everything except one enemy, then just stand around him, and use guts over and over to level up haha. Was cheap but quick.

And Prons - I did play XI, I played on Fenrir for a while. Had a level 40 dragoon. I usually just leave XI out because it's an MMORPG.

[Sendo Takeshi]

I thought it was funny sometimes in tactics, I'd kill everything except one enemy, then just stand around him, and use guts over and over to level up haha. Was cheap but quick.



It was one of the many exploits in the game.

[Naraku]

It was one of the many exploits in the game.

Yeah, that was the only bad things about tactics, way too many exploits.

[Holofernus]

Naraku, have you heard of Mistwalker studios and Lost Odyssey?

It will be "line up and choose your actions from a menu". And more importantly, the producer is Hironobu Sakaguchi. His absence for FFXII made that game the piece of trash it is. I played it for 5 minutes. I paid $50 for 5 minutes of total disappointment. What a piece of trash that should never had the name Final Fantasy slapped on it.

Anyway, I hope you have a 360.



ALSO, Another person came along with Hironobu to the new company... a little fellow by the name of Nobuo Uematsu, who is in my opinion the biggest single contributor to the success of the final fantasy series. In my opinion, his brilliant music accounts for %50 of the series' appeal.

[Tidusauron12]

I added that to the original post. I don't really see any point to making a new thread, don't want to flood the forums with my nonsense.

Shadow Hearts II wins over most FF games, IMO.

I liked FFX alot... XII was awesome too. I

[Ikari Warrior]

The PS1 FF's were some of my favorites. I was an FF7 fanboy. I still like it, but I know better now ;). FF8 was good, but I still don't like the draw/junction system, and the horrid plot twists make me shudder. I loved the graphics, though. That pseudo-fantasy/modern look worked better in FF7, but was still good in FF8. FF9, while a tribute to the original FF's felt too recycled.

FFX was blah. I suffered through the plot, and finally got fed up and dropped it.

FFXI was online, and I don't play any game that makes you pay a monthly fee to play it.

FFXII is the best thing to be churned out of FF since FF8, IMO. I don't know where all this hate for it is coming from. Personally, I have a hard time getting into it because I don't feel involved -- everything just attacks everything else. All you really need to manage is magic. Even then, you can set it all up on gambits. You could turn gambits off, but then it's kinda like "what's the point?" y'know? Too much micro management in the submenus for subsequent automation puts me off. I like the spur-of-the-moment battle system from previous games. To others, it gets repetitive, but I like it. But I like Dynasty Warriors, too.

[Sendo Takeshi]

Naraku, have you heard of Mistwalker studios and Lost Odyssey?

It will be "line up and choose your actions from a menu". And more importantly, the producer is Hironobu Sakaguchi. His absence for FFXII made that game the piece of trash it is. I played it for 5 minutes. I paid $50 for 5 minutes of total disappointment. What a piece of trash that should never had the name Final Fantasy slapped on it.



Yeah, because you can make an assumption off 5 minutes of gameplay. Good job depriving yourself of the real potential behind the game. That's like owning a PS3 for five minutes and saying you hate it because you didn't get a game in the first five minutes of owning the console.

[MightyDustLoop]

Yeah, FFXII actually had a story at the beginning even. The beginning didn't go against the FF grain at all. It's just the meat and potatoes wound up being gameplay this time.

I'm not going to say I want the FF series to turn into FFXII. I do like a slightly more story driven experience. But the middle of the game being almost all gameplay was a very nice change of pace. I don't see anything conceivably wrong with the "first 5 minutes" so to speak. So many games begin so slowly that I thought FFXII did a pretty good job of picking up the pace extremely fast.

[Yukito Kunisaki]

Personally, I liked the SNES ones the best. Seeing how that era is done with, it saddens me there will not be any more of them. I liked the world and Airships and everything in those graphics personally. The newer games just seem too serious for me. Still think it is sad that I am one of the few who enjoyed FF5 the most of them all still. Alot hate it, but Gilgamesh is and always will be my favorite FF villain. Best theme song ever too. I like the other FFs, but to me personally, none will live up to the pre-3d ones.

[seba_boi]

I've liked all the 3-D Final Fantasies... VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XII... So I'm gonna sit at the opposite table as of yours...


And if you must know, Vaan is the penultimate Final Fantasy main goody-goody hero... The side-characters ridicule him for being so--he's sort of the parody of all past FF heroes...

[Ikari Warrior]

hm, I'd always thought Zidane from 9 was the parody of all other main characters. After all, "the sly eagle hides its claws..."

[Soluzar]

I haven't liked any Final Fantasy games since Final Fantasy IX. I've only played from FFV - FF XII, none before, and I really haven't liked any of the ones after 9 so far.
I thought X was basically OK, but several of the characters sucked and the Sphere Grid system was badly thought out. It could have been cool, but it was too simplistic, and too easy to fill almost the whole grid without powerlevelling. I also hated VII with a passion. I've played what you've played, with the addition of IV, and I think the series has always been of variable quality. I can't really judge XII until I play some more of it, which I'm in no hurry to do. The presentation fails to appeal to me.

Don't feel like making another thread. But does anyone prefer any RPGs over any of the Final Fantasy series?
I also enjoy Tales of..., Suikoden, Shin Megami Tensei and a lot of one-off RPGs, like Skies of Arcadia. I don't consider Final Fantasy anything special.

[Jon]

I didn't like 12, because the battle system is boring and the characters suck. So why play the game?;)

FFIX was pure bliss, there wasn't much wrong with it. Lots of comical scenes, decent story, and sweet graphics (I still find myself gazing at the backgrounds).

I just bought Anthologies for the PS1, so I'll finally get the play V and VI.:)

[MightyDustLoop]

I didn't like 12, because the battle system is boring and the characters suck.

You know, I'm gonna have to chalk that phrase up to preference, because I really don't see how a more active battle system is more "boring" than a purely turn based system. Probably just a poor choice of words there, but turn based is the dinosaur of gaming. Heck, it's been around since the earliest of board games. If you enjoy it, you enjoy it. I do too. But there's no glorifying it. It, by very definition, would be considered more "boring", because you are, by that same very definition, completely inactive for moments of the game.

[Hajime Saitou]

You know, I'm gonna have to chalk that phrase up to preference, because I really don't see how a more active battle system is more "boring" than a purely turn based system. Probably just a poor choice of words there, but turn based is the dinosaur of gaming. Heck, it's been around since the earliest of board games. If you enjoy it, you enjoy it. I do too. But there's no glorifying it. It, by very definition, would be considered more "boring", because you are, by that same very definition, completely inactive for moments of the game.

It's a good thing you brought up board games. Are board games more boring these days now that we have video games? Wait, the games are exactly the same as they've always been? Nothing has changed? Ok, just checking.

It doesn't need any glorifying. If a battle system works in the first place, then it still works no matter how many new battle systems come out. The quality of the pre-existing ones are exactly the same. They're just different.

And you're not completely inactive for moments of the game. Just because you are not pressing a button does not mean that you are completely inactive. You're hopefully using your head to plan what your next action should be, or even your next few actions, which last I checked, counted as doing something. Your definition needs some work.

[Ikari Warrior]

You know, I'm gonna have to chalk that phrase up to preference, because I really don't see how a more active battle system is more "boring" than a purely turn based system. Probably just a poor choice of words there, but turn based is the dinosaur of gaming. Heck, it's been around since the earliest of board games. If you enjoy it, you enjoy it. I do too. But there's no glorifying it. It, by very definition, would be considered more "boring", because you are, by that same very definition, completely inactive for moments of the game.

In those "inactive" moments, you have time to think and work out a strategy. By your definition, chess is more boring than a video game. That of course is a matter of opinion.

I agree with Jon's statement about the battle system being boring. You're not actively participating in the battle all that often (except maybe the boss fights). The rest of the time you're wandering around, and the gambits do all the "work". Hence, the game plays for you, and makes the experience less immersive.

[Lunay]

Regarding FFXII, people seem to forget that you can play in Active Mode and/or not rely on gambit if it seems less immersive. I thought FFXII's ADB system was quite refreshing, though, I do prefer the old-school ATB system more. I don't mind FF going back to the ATB system, but at the same time, it would be nice to see them take a step forward and let us experience a new battle system. FFXII could have been better, for me at least, if they had implemented their traditional epic storytelling and character development. FFXII felt too experimental and risky. I still believe that XII was their guinea pig series. It's nowhere near perfect but I love it, nonetheless.

Just like Yukito, I have to say my favorites are pre-PS days (and FFXI if you want to count that one). But I do love each FF series for what it is and I can't say that I didn't like any of them; although, FFX-2 came close.

[Yukito Kunisaki]

Edit: Don't feel like making another thread. But does anyone prefer any RPGs over any of the Final Fantasy series? One of my all time favorites is The Legend of Dragoon. A lot of people found it too simple, but it was one of my favorites. Also, Valkyrie Profile. Gotta be one of the most artistic RPGs I have ever played.

Didn't notice this, but even if i like FF, Dragon Quest 7 has got to be the greatest game i played for the PS systems so far. The game had so much into it. Monster towns, A self made village, Many human and monster classes, The re-development of the world, the world where the towns were falling into chaos, Two optional dungeons, A few casinos, and quite a few other things. It honestly took me about 237 Hours to complete it 100% excluding the mastery of all classes for everyone, but i will say, I cannot recommend that game enough. i enjoyed it much more than I have anything on the Ps2, that is a given.

Also, The Star Ocean series was pretty awesome. Alot hated the third one because it didn't follow through with the first two, but I loved all of them.

[Ikari Warrior]

Regarding FFXII, people seem to forget that you can play in Active Mode and/or not rely on gambit if it seems less immersive.

Oh yeah, I hear that a lot. It's a valid point, but due to the gameplay mechanics and the camera angles, you have to have at least two of your three party members on gambits, otherwise they'll just sit still and take a beating until you order otherwise.

The nice thing about FFXII's battle system is that if you learn the gambits, you come out learning how to write queries. That's almost a joke, but it's true, too...

[Gibb]

I'll admit that I didn't read all of this thread, but I just thought I'd throw my opinion.

I thought the battle system in FFXII was the best system the FF series has ever used. Don't get me wrong, I've loved most of the other games (I really disliked FFIX because of the goofy characters and the tediously boring battles), but I started to get really sick of random encounters.

I realize most RPGs use random encounters, but I'm getting to the point where I'm not liking them much anymore.

[Lunay]

Oh yeah, I hear that a lot. It's a valid point, but due to the gameplay mechanics and the camera angles, you have to have at least two of your three party members on gambits, otherwise they'll just sit still and take a beating until you order otherwise.

As difficult and troublesome as it may sound, playing on active-mode and no gambit allows the user to become more immersed with its battle system for those who feel the need to. Who says it is a requirement to setup all of your gambit slots with actions? Of course, it'll become less immersive if you use up all of your gambit slots with actions! Why not just use one gambit slot for auto-melee attack and manually control the rest? At least that way, they aren't just standing there and taking a beating. Or you can use no gambit at all on Wait-Mode, which is a lot more easier and more enjoyable. No, you don't have to have anything. People play on default setup, fill up every single gambit like it's a requirement, spam quickenings, and complain that it is not immersive or too easy. My point is that FFXII's battle system has so much freedom for you to customize it to your own needs.

[earsofdoom]

I think the main problem with 12 was the characters were just sucky, I didn't like the battle system or anything else either but i would have at least finished the game if i actually gave a damn to remember the names of my characters. (seriously, when a friend asked me who the characters were half of them i didn't even remember there names)

[Ryuuichi009]

Didn't notice this, but even if i like FF, Dragon Quest 7 has got to be the greatest game i played for the PS systems so far. The game had so much into it. Monster towns, A self made village, Many human and monster classes, The re-development of the world, the world where the towns were falling into chaos, Two optional dungeons, A few casinos, and quite a few other things. It honestly took me about 237 Hours to complete it 100% excluding the mastery of all classes for everyone, but i will say, I cannot recommend that game enough. i enjoyed it much more than I have anything on the Ps2, that is a given.

Also, The Star Ocean series was pretty awesome. Alot hated the third one because it didn't follow through with the first two, but I loved all of them.

Finally someone else who liked the third SO...

Although I really don't know why everyone keeps complainging about the storyline in 12...it seemed fine to me. But then again I'm a big fighting games person so...I really didn't care about the storyline...the gameplay is what mattered to me. And on that note...the gameplay was pretty ingaging...yeah it did get boring at some parts but with a few config adjustments I had a pretty good challenge.

[Tidusauron12]

Now that I think about it, I've enjoyed all that the Final Fantasy series has had to offer (save XI), I even enjoyed X and XII. IX I must admit didn't interest as much... but I did like the games. I'm starting to get tired of a multitude of things with RPG games now adays... but I'll save that for a later rant. I hope XIII makes me as happy as some of the other games did.

[Naraku]

Is it just me, or do RPGs feel like they should be simple games with a compelling story? I get tired of all the new games that tries to make combat over the top, or focus on graphics being the best, I just prefer the simple methods.

[Ryuuichi009]

Is it just me, or do RPGs feel like they should be simple games with a compelling story? I get tired of all the new games that tries to make combat over the top, or focus on graphics being the best, I just prefer the simple methods.

Well...IMO that doesn't seem very interesting because then the combat gets boring and all you really end up doing is watching a movie. Take Jade Empire for instance...great game but the combat is pretty dull...it's pretty much playing through a movie (Although the endings are pretty different).

[Soluzar]

Well...IMO that doesn't seem very interesting because then the combat gets boring and all you really end up doing is watching a movie. Take Jade Empire for instance...great game but the combat is pretty dull...it's pretty much playing through a movie (Although the endings are pretty different).
I never found that the combat got dull in Jade Empire.

[Tidusauron12]

IMO, the way a character goes about improving their skill needs to change. One does not gain magic ability by swinging a Katana as a dinosaur over the course of an adventure (Auron!). I'm just using him as an example... how can a warrior learn Ultima by killing animals with swords... That just frustrates me... How can alchemists learn new abilities if they just use physical attacks!? These sorts of things are small and kinda' over realistic... but it'd be fun if development of the characters' skills actually fit in with the story... I mean actually training. IMO, it'd be fun to see this element added to SOME RPG games.

[earsofdoom]

IMO, the way a character goes about improving their skill needs to change. One does not gain magic ability by swinging a Katana as a dinosaur over the course of an adventure (Auron!). I'm just using him as an example... how can a warrior learn Ultima by killing animals with swords... That just frustrates me... How can alchemists learn new abilities if they just use physical attacks!? These sorts of things are small and kinda' over realistic... but it'd be fun if development of the characters' skills actually fit in with the story... I mean actually training. IMO, it'd be fun to see this element added to SOME RPG games.

another reason why the characters felt hallow, nobody was really anything even there stat's were pretty much the same.

[Lunay]

IMO, the way a character goes about improving their skill needs to change. One does not gain magic ability by swinging a Katana as a dinosaur over the course of an adventure (Auron!). I'm just using him as an example... how can a warrior learn Ultima by killing animals with swords... That just frustrates me... How can alchemists learn new abilities if they just use physical attacks!? These sorts of things are small and kinda' over realistic... but it'd be fun if development of the characters' skills actually fit in with the story... I mean actually training. IMO, it'd be fun to see this element added to SOME RPG games.

FFII had this sort of specific skill training - melee skill went up as the character used it more, magic went up as you used more spells, etc etc. I take it you are a fan of FFII? You also raise specific skill in the same matter in FFXI (which I already know you hate, along with many other people ^^ ), which is an aspect that should be incorporated into other FF series in my opinion. It makes things more fun and challenging.

[Hajime Saitou]

FFII had this sort of specific skill training - melee skill went up as the character used it more, magic went up as you used more spells, etc etc. I take it you are a fan of FFII? You also raise specific skill in the same matter in FFXI (which I already know you hate, along with many other people ^^ ), which is an aspect that should be incorporated into other FF series in my opinion. It makes things more fun and challenging.

Wait...FFII? That was the worst system ever. There's a reason that they finally added periodic health gains in the GBA version. I'm all for specialization in offense, but the defense stuff was ridiculous. The requirements to gain health and defense in FFII were asking far too much from a normal RPG.

The game is one of the few games in the series to not use experience-based levels.

...

Hit points and magic points increase depending on need: a character who ends a battle with only a small amount of health remaining might earn an increase in maximum hit points, and a character who uses the majority of their magic points during a single battle might increase their maximum magic points.

Worst idea ever.

[Lunay]

I knew I should have mentioned the flaws for FFII, instead of just mentioning what I liked about it. I certainly wasn't praising FFII's system as the best ever. :laugh: I can't agree more that FFII had many flaws as far as raising specific stats, especially, the defense aspect of it as you mentioned; it's really baffling when you have to resort to hitting your own party members just to raise your defensive stats. I am asking if Tidusauron12 is a fan of FFII, because not many people like it very much due to its flaws. But I still think it would be a great idea to incorporate some sort of specific skill system for each weapon and defensive stats for future FF titles. Despite FFII's flaws, I give Squaresoft credit for trying something different.

[Hajime Saitou]

it's really baffling when you have to resort to hitting your own party members just to raise your defensive stats.

That was one of the most annoying aspects of that game.

But I still think it would be a great idea to incorporate some sort of specific skill system for each weapon and defensive stats for future FF titles. Despite FFII's flaws, I give Squaresoft credit for trying something different.

I would be more than happy to have a properly implimented skill system as I really liked the one in FFXI(and most MMORPGs). I will give them credit for thinking of such a system in 2, right before I boo them off the stage for the horrible execution of such a nice concept. Offensive skills seem logical, defensive ones do not. Getting beaten to death does not make you stronger. We're not Saiya-jins after all. :P

[seba_boi]

I like how magic works in FFXII a bit similarly to Chrono Trigger... And I especially like how the map is reminiscent of FFT... Although the biggest gripe of FFXII is the overreliance to a guide in order to find even some of the simple hunts... Otherwise, this game would take you 'til eternity to finish...

[Tidusauron12]

FFII had this sort of specific skill training - melee skill went up as the character used it more, magic went up as you used more spells, etc etc. I take it you are a fan of FFII? You also raise specific skill in the same matter in FFXI (which I already know you hate, along with many other people ^^ ), which is an aspect that should be incorporated into other FF series in my opinion. It makes things more fun and challenging.

You are correct. ^_^ I enjoyed II for the most part... some of the decisions on how to level up were annoying though...

Wait...FFII? That was the worst system ever. There's a reason that they finally added periodic health gains in the GBA version. I'm all for specialization in offense, but the defense stuff was ridiculous. The requirements to gain health and defense in FFII were asking far too much from a normal RPG.



Worst idea ever.


Well, FFII was a long while back. I believe if Square really works on it, they can come up with a system that is similar to FFII, but WAY better. FFII went too far (either that, or just in the wrong direction). If you think about it, it'd be cool if there were opportunities to increase your skills through training (right!?). I just can't be satisfied by gaining magic ability through swinging of a blade or stealing of items... it's not... It's just stale. I'd enjoy to see a reform... that exp. crap is old.

Maybe if we complain enough, Square will get the picture?

Edit: I am a semifan of II. The improvement system pissed me off, but I liked it nonetheless.

[Hajime Saitou]

I believe if Square really works on it, they can come up with a system that is similar to FFII, but WAY better.

FFXI ;)

It's been around for a very long time in MMORPGs. It just doesn't work as well in normal RPGs. Like I said before, I'm not opposed to offensive use -> offensive skill, but the defensive stuff doesn't make sense and it hinders gameplay. You would have to figure out some way to make that work.

[Naraku]

Wait...FFII? That was the worst system ever. There's a reason that they finally added periodic health gains in the GBA version. I'm all for specialization in offense, but the defense stuff was ridiculous. The requirements to gain health and defense in FFII were asking far too much from a normal RPG.



Worst idea ever.

Well if you look at it realisticly then it makes sense. Offense abilities should be easier to raise than defense should. Take a boxer for example. A boxer can work on the mechanics of his punch, and lift weights to increase his power output of his punches. However, a boxer would find it harder to increase the amount of punches he could take. Sure he could build up his core muscles so he could take more punches there, but it is far more limited than offensive ability is, a good punch will still knock you out no matter how strong your muscles are.

I don't really know what I was trying to prove there, maybe that the stat gaining series in Final Fantasy II seemed pretty realistic, at least to me. Since everyone attacks in some way, they should be able to increase their offensive ability quicker than their defensive ability which seems pretty logical to me. But I can see how an rpg where characters don't have balanced leveling can make the game a bit frustrating.

FFXI

It's been around for a very long time in MMORPGs. It just doesn't work as well in normal RPGs. Like I said before, I'm not opposed to offensive use -> offensive skill, but the defensive stuff doesn't make sense and it hinders gameplay. You would have to figure out some way to make that work.

I agree that it doesn't work as well in regular RPGs, and I don't really care to see it tried there. If I wanted to work on the little details such as leveling up certain skills then I'd play an MMORPG, but I wouldn't want to see that in an RPG game, it'd be way too tedious and discourage me from playing it. I just play RPGs for interesting characters, a unique game world, and an inspiring story.. not so I can level up stats that I don't really want to take the time leveling up anyways. I can live with just gaining a level and having no say in what my stats will be, I prefer some restrictions in my RPGs.

[Hajime Saitou]

I don't really know what I was trying to prove there, maybe that the stat gaining series in Final Fantasy II seemed pretty realistic, at least to me.

It looked like you just more or less reiterated what I said.

What I'm trying to say is this:

Offensive=ok and realistic: I use my sword a lot, so I get better at using swords.

Defensive=no and unrealistic: I just lost 90% of my blood...+10hp right after the fight.

[Naraku]

It looked like you just more or less reiterated what I said.

What I'm trying to say is this:

Offensive=ok and realistic: I use my sword a lot, so I get better at using swords.

Defensive=no and unrealistic: I just lost 90% of my blood...+10hp right after the fight.

You said it is the worst system ever, I said I can see the logic behind it. Sort of different. I don't think it's that broke.

[Hajime Saitou]

You said it is the worst system ever, I said I can see the logic behind it. Sort of different. I don't think it's that broke.

I still think it's the worst system ever, and actually, if you want to get technical, it is infact broken. You don't need to attack to gain levels. You only need to select the attack command to gain skill with whatever weapon you are holding. Then, while selecting your next characters commands, just cancel and go back to the previous character. Repeat this cycle as much as you want to gain skill in any weapon or magic spell. The offense part, the only part that has any logic behind it, is broken.

The defensive part has no logic whatsoever. Getting seriously injured does not make you stronger. It puts people in the hospital. The game requires you to lose over 50% of your maximum health to gain maximum health. That just doesn't make sense. You need to use 50% of your mamimum mana to gain mana. This one might make sense in a fantasy world, as it seems more offensive than defensive in that it seems like working your magical muscle in a way.

But the worst and most broken aspect of this game is that even if you achieve the requirements for gaining skill, if you run away, you don't get any. If it really is supposed to be about specific increases and not exp(winning battles) then why does it matter if you do your training and then run away? That just doesn't make any sense.

So yes, I do think this is the worst battle system, and that it is broken. It's creative. I'll give it that. But it has such horrible execution.

[Naraku]

That's opinion, not fact.

[Rurouni Saiyan]

FFX was a great game. I liked the sphere grid because it was sort of an off-shoot of the Job/Class system. I could build up my character to any spec I want. If I want Tidus to throw out Ultimas and Lulu to smack mobs around with her Onion Knight, then so be it.

The game overall was beautiful. The gameplay was simplistic and straight-forward.

In short, this game was win.

[Hajime Saitou]

That's opinion, not fact.

Me calling it the worst system ever is an opinion. It being broken and poorly conceived is a fact.

By the way, nice comeback.

[Naraku]

Me calling it the worst system ever is an opinion. It being broken and poorly conceived is a fact.

By the way, nice comeback.

Calling it broken and poorly conceived is still an opinion. For the year the game was made I think it's not poorly conceived but rather innovative, see how that's an opinion, just like yours?

Thanks for the nice comeback comment, I didn't feel like writing another paragraph again, since you obviously had no interest in doing it either. I got my point across with a few words instead of many. Didn't know you were taking this so personal.

[Hajime Saitou]

Calling it broken and poorly conceived is still an opinion.

No it isn't. The system is broken. Anyone can play the game and reproduce the same exact results that I had. It's written in FAQs, and people talk about it on forums and message boards. This is not a secret. The battle system in FFII is broken.

For the year the game was made I think it's not poorly conceived but rather innovative, see how that's an opinion, just like yours?

It can be both, as how well something was conceived and how innovative it was are separate ideas.

Something can be innovative, as in not done before, and really really bad, as in poorly conceived. There will always be games that take a chance and do something new, yet they sometimes end up failing miserably due to being poorly conceived. The battle system in FFII has tons of holes, bugs, and ways to exploit it. No matter what kind of spin you put on that, it was poorly conceived.

Thanks for the nice comeback comment, I didn't feel like writing another paragraph again, since you obviously had no interest in doing it either.

You're welcome, and for the record, I love writing long paragraphs.

I got my point across with a few words instead of many. Didn't know you were taking this so personal.

I'm not taking this personally. You threw out the opinion shield because you couldn't back your statement up when faced with facts. Instead of refuting my claims that the game is broken by showing me evidence from that very same game that my statements were false, you just said it was my opinion and tried to drop it. I just like to point out when I see someone flinching over the internet.

[Naraku]

I'm not taking this personally. You threw out the opinion shield because you couldn't back your statement up when faced with facts. Instead of refuting my claims that the game is broken by showing me evidence from that very same game that my statements were false, you just said it was my opinion and tried to drop it. I just like to point out when I see someone flinching over the internet.

It is your opinion. It's a system that you don't like so you automatically say that it's a fact that it's broken. You don't like it, it's not broken, you just don't like it, that's an opinion.

Bold = I laughed at that, keep thinking you're an e-badass. ;)

[Hajime Saitou]

It is your opinion. It's a system that you don't like so you automatically say that it's a fact that it's broken. You don't like it, it's not broken, you just don't like it, that's an opinion.

Wow...did you even read my post? Seriously? I gave you many reasons with facts to back them up, but you still chose to believe what you did before this started. You did this before in your manga (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=206114) thread. You get information that does not match what you think, so you discount it without even considering that there may be another side. In fact you don't even realize the other side exists, do you? Sorry, but that's kind of sad. I directly responded to every one of your posts, not sidestepping discussion or throwing out the opinion shield. If my words are truly nothing more than an opinion, then you must first show that my facts are incorrect. Until you can do that, the opinion shield is useless.

Bold = I laughed at that, keep thinking you're an e-badass. ;)

I would rather be called an e-anything over being someone who can not see the whole picture. Feel free to fire away, as none of the names you could possibly call me would ever be worse than the self-content I would feel if I was ever as close-minded as you are.

[Lunay]

I apologize for the interruption, and I really don't mean to take any sides, but the 'original' FFII's system is considered broken, due to the bug which allowed the user to take action, then cancel, which still registered as a skill-up in offense, as previously mentioned by Hajime. Also, in the original FFII, certain stats would go down if neglected. I believe, these bugs were removed from the re-releases, so, most people are not aware of it.

[Hajime Saitou]

The changes were first introduced to the GBA version. The battle system of the WSC(WonderSwan Color) and PSX versions were still just as broken as the original.

I also did some digging just incase some fLies find their way into this thread.

[Tidusauron12]

FFXI ;)

It's been around for a very long time in MMORPGs. It just doesn't work as well in normal RPGs. Like I said before, I'm not opposed to offensive use -> offensive skill, but the defensive stuff doesn't make sense and it hinders gameplay. You would have to figure out some way to make that work.


Well, I for one believe that defense shouldn't be able to be changed TOO much in such a system. There should be characters who are naturally tougher than others... the problem is... it is hard to have a system of defense that is TOO realistic when you have giant dragons flying around that can fire giant energy balls at will. Still... I believe something can be done... something more with the improvement system. I hate the experience point system, seriously... it's starting to get annoying to me.

btw: I hate FFXI though!!! >_(

(By the way, how did FFXI go about increasing defense?)

Edit: I think this is just a personal thing, but I liked the aspect of stats falling in FFII if they weren't used. I mean, if you're a good magician and you never use magic... your skills will deteriorate. I'm sure people would get pissed though. People play the FF series to escape reality... they don't wanna' have to REALLY work at it, they wonna' have fun. I'm not sure about the masses, but I like the more realistic systems.

[Hajime Saitou]

(By the way, how did FFXI go about increasing defense?)

It's been a while, so I'm sure I'll be forgetting some things, but basically the more you did something, the better you got at it. It was all done through random chance, but it still worked out. Sometimes when you parried, your parry skill went up. Sometimes when you blocked with a shield, your shield skill went up. Sometimes when you dodged...I'm sure you can see where this is going.

There was a cap on how high those skills could go, which was based on your level and your class. For example, a paladin and a warrior could both use one-hand swords and shields, yet since that was the paladins specialty(they were tanks), their cap was higher than a warrior on any given level for those specific skills. Warriors were the most proficient with two-hand axes if I remember correctly, and always had a higher skill in it than a Dark Knight would at any given level. That system actually made sense, and worked pretty well.

[Ryuuichi009]

I never found that the combat got dull in Jade Empire.

You didn't? All you did was press the "A" button all the time and occassionaly switch styles...even on Grand master it was pretty dull after a while...

[Naraku]

Wow...did you even read my post? Seriously? I gave you many reasons with facts to back them up, but you still chose to believe what you did before this started. You did this before in your manga (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=206114) thread. You get information that does not match what you think, so you discount it without even considering that there may be another side. In fact you don't even realize the other side exists, do you? Sorry, but that's kind of sad. I directly responded to every one of your posts, not sidestepping discussion or throwing out the opinion shield. If my words are truly nothing more than an opinion, then you must first show that my facts are incorrect. Until you can do that, the opinion shield is useless.



I would rather be called an e-anything over being someone who can not see the whole picture. Feel free to fire away, as none of the names you could possibly call me would ever be worse than the self-content I would feel if I was ever as close-minded as you are.

Again I laughed at your whole post. You assume way too much. I've read all of your posts, and I can say the same about you. You ignore most of all my posts it seems like(which you think I do too), because you only quote certain parts of my quotes sometimes.

I don't even know there is another side? How ridiculous does that sound? You can't argue without there being more than one side to take, so I obviously know there is more than one side. You think the game is broken, that's your side, I don't, that's my side.

You think all I'm doing is name calling just because of that last post? That to me is a joke. Now you are using that as a shield, haha. I actually think you threw the first blow by saying something about me flinching or something, when you really had nothing else to attack me with. Obviously you think you're an e-badass, I only spoke the truth, you couldn't handle it and got even madder. About the manga thread, I don't really remember what it was about and I'm not going to look it up to find out. I think I was just asking why people compare anime to manga, and a ton of people got angry because they only think in a linear fashion. I learned that people are uncapable of seperating the two and treating them seperate as they should be, but that isn't what this is about, and I'm not sure why you even brought it up.

I'll go ahead and be honest, I've not played Final Fantasy II, and I'm not sure if or when I will. But what I've read about it and seen of it, I don't think the combat system is that bad or 'broken'. You'll probably think my opinion is even less valid now that I've said this but I don't really care. You don't have to do drugs to know they are harmful(bad analogy). Anyways, for such a dated game, I really think the ideas in it, and the way the stats upgrade were pretty revolutionary for the time. You complain that the only way to increase defense is to lose 50% of your health. Obviously if this were real you'd go to the hospital and probably shorten your life span some, but since this is a video game it's different. For the time there was probably no better way to do this, it probably wasn't possible to do any other way than just the level up system. Game developers were working with limited technology, it's amazing they could even make it as complex as it was. I'd just play the game for what it was instead of raving about what I didn't like about it.

Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot.. I'm close minded because I'm taking a different side than you are. I don't see you changing your stance at all, but I'm obviously close minded because I haven't changed mine. Just because I don't agree with your points doesn't mean I'm close minded. Did you honestly expect to come in this thread and completely persuade me to change my whole opinion? Just because you didn't make me "see the light" as you obviously expected me too, I'm automatically closed-minded to you ;). There are two sides to arguements, you can't just assume that you can persuade anyone on some subjects, it just doesn't work that way. You came in here and put your points down, I read them all and acknowledge them all, but they are still opinions, opinions that I just don't happen to share.

[Soluzar]

You didn't? All you did was press the "A" button all the time and occassionaly switch styles...even on Grand master it was pretty dull after a while...
It wasn't at all dull. You're leaving out all the interesting parts about the game, such as the tactical choices involved in switching styles. If you are running low on Chi, you need to switch to the style that allows you to restore Chi. Some opponents are immune to physical or magical damage, so that forces you to mix up your styles. There are both armed and unarmed styles, but the armed styles consume focus, which you need to restore. There was a lot going on in that combat system, I think you played a different game than I did if you could win by just pressing the A button repeatedly without considering your tactics.

[Tidusauron12]

It's been a while, so I'm sure I'll be forgetting some things, but basically the more you did something, the better you got at it. It was all done through random chance, but it still worked out. Sometimes when you parried, your parry skill went up. Sometimes when you blocked with a shield, your shield skill went up. Sometimes when you dodged...I'm sure you can see where this is going.

There was a cap on how high those skills could go, which was based on your level and your class. For example, a paladin and a warrior could both use one-hand swords and shields, yet since that was the paladins specialty(they were tanks), their cap was higher than a warrior on any given level for those specific skills. Warriors were the most proficient with two-hand axes if I remember correctly, and always had a higher skill in it than a Dark Knight would at any given level. That system actually made sense, and worked pretty well.

Hmm... seems to be the 'surface' of an improvement system I'd like to see. Just a bit more developed and focused and it'd be awesome.

[Hajime Saitou]

I'll go ahead and be honest, I've not played Final Fantasy II, and I'm not sure if or when I will.

Watch as I totally ignore 90% of your post. I hope you like it too. ;)

So I guess we're done here. You have never even played the game. You are not properly equipped to have this conversation. The battle system is broken. It can be, and just was, backed up with facts.

Goodbye.

Edit- Hmm... seems to be the 'surface' of an improvement system I'd like to see. Just a bit more developed and focused and it'd be awesome.

Since you say it seems to only be the surface, can you say what you have planned for under the surface? I'm guessing that since you say a bit more developed and focused, that you already have something in mind, in which case I'd be interested in hearing about it.

[Naraku]

Watch as I totally ignore 90% of your post. I hope you like it too. ;)

So I guess we're done here. You have never even played the game. You are not properly equipped to have this conversation. The battle system is broken. It can be, and just was, backed up with facts.

Goodbye.

Edit-

Since you say it seems to only be the surface, can you say what you have planned for under the surface? I'm guessing that since you say a bit more developed and focused, that you already have something in mind, in which case I'd be interested in hearing about it.

Good day then, you obviously aren't mature enough to hold a conversation with anyways. You take offense to way too much, it's a shame. As I said before, I might have not played it, but I still know enough about it to talk about it, and throw my input out there. You should have known from the start that I hadn't played it, since I said that with my first post of the thread, at least I think I did. I actually expected this kind of comment back from you. Guess the rest of my post had you speechless :)

[Hajime Saitou]

Guess the rest of my post had you speechless :)

This, is the most accurate thing, you have ever said. Ever. You have repeated the same exact cycle as you did in your manga thread, that showed that you have an unbelievable ability to ignore any and all facts that conflict with, if not completely destroy, your biased "view" on the subject.

Fortunately, it doesn't matter what you think of me and my words. It doesn't matter what I think of you and your words. This isn't a private thread that only we can see. Everyone else can form their own opinion on what is said in here, and I am more than happy with the way things look like right now. I will even mark it for you, lest you miss it again.

Important stuff.

On one hand we have a person who has played the game, with actual firsthand knowledge, saying that the system is broken, who then provides actual facts from within the game that anyone can objectively verify for themselves.

On the other hand, we have someone who has not played the game, who does not have firsthand knowledge, saying that the system is not broken, who then claims that the statement that it is broken is nothing more than an opinion, yet he does not once attempt to disprove the other person's claims.

End of important stuff.

This thread is looking pretty good to me. Until you actually attempt to prove my facts wrong, all we have from you is the opinion shield. You haven't brought any meat to the table, even once. This thread speaks for itself. Actually, so does the manga (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=206114) thread, as you have done the same exact thing again. No matter how incredibly short-sighted you are, it doesn't change the fact that you have filled up several posts with misinformed, biased, rhetoric. Your "argument" has no weight whatsoever. No facts, no insight, and no personal experience.

I know that nothing I type will get through to you, and I doubt that even if other people were to come in here and say the same thing you would listen to them. I once again cite the manga thread as you not being open to anything other than what you believe, no matter how many people it may come from, and no matter how solid the argument is.

To address something that you said earlier, I have not taken offense to this even once. You are mistaking my harsh tone for an offensive tone. You did not speak the truth about anything. I said you flinched because you did, and now we know exactly why:

I threw out cold hard facts from the game, and instead of refuting them, you claimed it was just my opinion, because you have never even played the game. You must have realized that you were unprepared for such a discussion, since you could not back up your claims even if you wanted to. Why you continue to be so adamant about something that you are unable to properly discuss is beyond me.

Before you worry about whether or not I look like an e-anything, or if I am taking offense to this thread, you might want to step back for a minute and think how this thread makes you look. I am ok, as I have said many times in the past, with being labeled a jerk. In fact, I will gladly accept that label. My personal demeanor does not change the validity of the content of my post.

[Naraku]

This, is the most accurate thing, you have ever said. Ever. You have repeated the same exact cycle as you did in your manga thread, that showed that you have an unbelievable ability to ignore any and all facts that conflict with, if not completely destroy, your biased "view" on the subject.

Fortunately, it doesn't matter what you think of me and my words. It doesn't matter what I think of you and your words. This isn't a private thread that only we can see. Everyone else can form their own opinion on what is said in here, and I am more than happy with the way things look like right now. I will even mark it for you, lest you miss it again.

Important stuff.

On one hand we have a person who has played the game, with actual firsthand knowledge, saying that the system is broken, who then provides actual facts from within the game that anyone can objectively verify for themselves.

On the other hand, we have someone who has not played the game, who does not have firsthand knowledge, saying that the system is not broken, who then claims that the statement that it is broken is nothing more than an opinion, yet he does not once attempt to disprove the other person's claims.

End of important stuff.

This thread is looking pretty good to me. Until you actually attempt to prove my facts wrong, all we have from you is the opinion shield. You haven't brought any meat to the table, even once. This thread speaks for itself. Actually, so does the manga (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=206114) thread, as you have done the same exact thing again. No matter how incredibly short-sighted you are, it doesn't change the fact that you have filled up several posts with misinformed, biased, rhetoric. Your "argument" has no weight whatsoever. No facts, no insight, and no personal experience.

I know that nothing I type will get through to you, and I doubt that even if other people were to come in here and say the same thing you would listen to them. I once again cite the manga thread as you not being open to anything other than what you believe, no matter how many people it may come from, and no matter how solid the argument is.

To address something that you said earlier, I have not taken offense to this even once. You are mistaking my harsh tone for an offensive tone. You did not speak the truth about anything. I said you flinched because you did, and now we know exactly why:

I threw out cold hard facts from the game, and instead of refuting them, you claimed it was just my opinion, because you have never even played the game. You must have realized that you were unprepared for such a discussion, since you could not back up your claims even if you wanted to. Why you continue to be so adamant about something that you are unable to properly discuss is beyond me.

Before you worry about whether or not I look like an e-anything, or if I am taking offense to this thread, you might want to step back for a minute and think how this thread makes you look. I am ok, as I have said many times in the past, with being labeled a jerk. In fact, I will gladly accept that label. My personal demeanor does not change the validity of the content of my post.


I have yet to see you state any "facts" that you speak of from you. The only thing you've said is that you don't like the game system because the defensive part of the stats. You said that since you don't think it's realistic that you can only gain more health by losing 50% of your health, you think the game is broken. That, my friend, is an opinion not a fact, and I still do not understand how this makes the game broken to you. It's just the way the game is set up, maybe the word broken is the wrong choice.

You keep saying that I am completely ignoring everything you post, which is ridiculous. I've read all of your posts in their entirety, so I'm not sure why you keep saying that. I understand what you are saying, you don't like the system because you think it's flawed. You have not given any facts that can "completely destroy, your biased "view" on the subject" as you put it, just your opinions on why you don't like the system.

You're right about one thing though, I haven't tried to disprove anything you've said. Your opinions on the game system are valid, and I'm not going to try to make you like the game system. I was simply just posting what I thought about the system, then you jumped all over me relentlessly trying to persuade me to change my view, which is pretty hard(if not impossible) on a subject that can't have any hard facts to persuade anybody anyways.

My opinion is that I like the game system and don't think it's broke, your opinion is that you don't like the game system and you think it's broke.. that's all I've been saying this whole time.

[Holy Knight]

I have yet to see you state any "facts" that you speak of from you. The only thing you've said is that you don't like the game system because the defensive part of the stats. You said that since you don't think it's realistic that you can only gain more health by losing 50% of your health, you think the game is broken. That, my friend, is an opinion not a fact, and I still do not understand how this makes the game broken to you. It's just the way the game is set up, maybe the word broken is the wrong choice.

You keep saying that I am completely ignoring everything you post, which is ridiculous. I've read all of your posts in their entirety, so I'm not sure why you keep saying that. I understand what you are saying, you don't like the system because you think it's flawed. You have not given any facts that can "completely destroy, your biased "view" on the subject" as you put it, just your opinions on why you don't like the system.

You're right about one thing though, I haven't tried to disprove anything you've said. Your opinions on the game system are valid, and I'm not going to try to make you like the game system. I was simply just posting what I thought about the system, then you jumped all over me relentlessly trying to persuade me to change my view, which is pretty hard(if not impossible) on a subject that can't have any hard facts to persuade anybody anyways.

My opinion is that I like the game system and don't think it's broke, your opinion is that you don't like the game system and you think it's broke.. that's all I've been saying this whole time.

Then see it this way:

It's broken because you are potentially putting your party at risk of failure each battle by lowering your health points below the 50% value. Additionally, aren't you expending unecessary ressources and money on making sure that this condition is achieved? When making yourself stronger, why should you have to negatively affect your party? As it is, we are executing a set of negative actions which wield a positive result. Doesn't that sound illogical? Sure, if you like it, then that's fine. However, the implementing of such a system in this fashion is not consistent with real-world physical laws and as such, has no merit. Before you say "but in a Star Wars game, you can use the Force!", consider that that is hyperbole of current physical possibilities, whereas this game inverts currents accepted physical possibilities.

To put the above in simple terms: You're not about to gain stamina if I cut off your arm, are you?

"Broken" would imply that there is an (or many) element(s) that was (were) not intended to be there by those who coded the game. Keeping that in mind, there appears to be many bugs and exploits present in the system. As such, the game is partially broken in this regard. As for the system itself, it is poorly implemented, but not necessarily "broken". I'd have to verify that for myself.

[Naraku]

Then see it this way:

It's broken because you are potentially putting your party at risk of failure each battle by lowering your health points below the 50% value. Additionally, aren't you expending unecessary ressources and money on making sure that this condition is achieved? When making yourself stronger, why should you have to negatively affect your party? As it is, we are executing a set of negative actions which wield a positive result. Doesn't that sound illogical? Sure, if you like it, then that's fine. However, the implementing of such a system in this fashion is not consistent with real-world physical laws and as such, has no merit. Before you say "but in a Star Wars game, you can use the Force!", consider that that is hyperbole of current physical possibilities, whereas this game inverts currents accepted physical possibilities.

To put the above in simple terms: You're not about to gain stamina if I cut off your arm, are you?

"Broken" would imply that there is an (or many) element(s) that was (were) not intended to be there by those who coded the game. Keeping that in mind, there appears to be many bugs and exploits present in the system. As such, the game is partially broken in this regard. As for the system itself, it is poorly implemented, but not necessarily "broken". I'd have to verify that for myself.

Right I completely agree that it is illogical to say that getting hurt is the only way of increasing your max HP. I'm sure that many people who play the game just attack their own party to exploit this system, and many people find exploits that they use in other games, but I don't see any of those games as broken.

It's hard to tell the intentions of the game developers in this case. I agree that it would be broken if the game didn't turn out as they intended, but is there really any way of knowing? Just because a game has exploits doesn't really mean it's broken, at least that's how I see it.

[Hajime Saitou]

I broke this down to be as specific as possible, and for easy comprehension.

I have yet to see you state any "facts" that you speak of from you.

You obviously missed them then, several times.

The only thing you've said is that you don't like the game system because the defensive part of the stats.

Yep, that's the only thing I've said. Nothing else. I've been typing that exact phrase for 2 pages now :lol:.

You said that since you don't think it's realistic that you can only gain more health by losing 50% of your health, you think the game is broken.

I have never once said that. This started with me saying that some things do not make sense, and they don't. The subject of whether or not it is broken was brought up after the discussion of whether or not it made sense. In fact, you were the one to introduce the broken subject.

That, my friend, is an opinion not a fact

This is true. It's unrealistic therefore it is broken is an opinion. Good thing I've never said that.

and I still do not understand how this makes the game broken to you.

See above.

It's just the way the game is set up, maybe the word broken is the wrong choice.

For what you are describing here, broken is the wrong word. Illogical would be the best word to use here.

You keep saying that I am completely ignoring everything you post, which is ridiculous. I've read all of your posts in their entirety, so I'm not sure why you keep saying that.

Look at what I just had to type.

I understand what you are saying, you don't like the system because you think it's flawed.

No. I don't like it for a lot more than that. And it is flawed. And broken.

You have not given any facts that can "completely destroy, your biased "view" on the subject" as you put it, just your opinions on why you don't like the system.

Yes I have. Look at the bottom of this post, not to mention the links to where I have said this before.

You're right about one thing though, I haven't tried to disprove anything you've said.

Ok.

Your opinions on the game system are valid, and I'm not going to try to make you like the game system.

This has never been about someone being able to like it or not. The battle system is broken(fact), and the parts that aren't broken are ridiculous(opinion).


I was simply just posting what I thought about the system

No, you were trying to say that it isn't broken because you don't think it is. Opinion has no say in this.

then you jumped all over me relentlessly trying to persuade me to change my view

Your view has nothing to do with this. If I was trying to get you to change something, it was that there are facts as to why this game is broken and you were ignoring them, or now that I know the truth, you were unaware of them in the first place because you haven't even played the game.

which is pretty hard(if not impossible) on a subject that can't have any hard facts to persuade anybody anyways.

Sure, whatever you say. :thumbsup:

My opinion is that I like the game system and don't think it's broke

Ok. Except you haven't played it, and you conveniently left out the actual facts that I have mentioned before. I will do so again shortly.

your opinion is that you don't like the game system and you think it's broke.. that's all I've been saying this whole time.

No, I don't like it. And it is broken. I've played it, I've experienced it for myself, I've seen exactly how it is broken, I understand the game mechanics and know how things are calculated.

Here is just one single fact that is more than enough to show that this battle system is broken, and it's taken straight from previous posts:

http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=6188107&postcount=57

You don't need to attack to gain levels. You only need to select the attack command to gain skill with whatever weapon you are holding. Then, while selecting your next characters commands, just cancel and go back to the previous character. Repeat this cycle as much as you want to gain skill in any weapon or magic spell. The offense part, the only part that has any logic behind it, is broken.

What does this mean? You can level up, and completely max out your physical and magical offensive abilities without causing 1hp worth of damage to an enemy. You never once have to swing your sword to have the sword skill at its maximum level. You can have the cure spell at its maximum level without casting it even once. This is a battle system where you are supposed to gain skill after physically executing a command. You do not have to physically execute an attack/spell even once to gain skill. You can maximize your skill levels for every piece of equipment you have access to right at the very start of the game.

Lunay(I apologize for bringing you into this) reiterated this exact phenomenon here:

http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=6188136&postcount=65

I apologize for the interruption, and I really don't mean to take any sides, but the 'original' FFII's system is considered broken, due to the bug which allowed the user to take action, then cancel, which still registered as a skill-up in offense, as previously mentioned by Hajime. Also, in the original FFII, certain stats would go down if neglected. I believe, these bugs were removed from the re-releases, so, most people are not aware of it.

This is a fact. This is not my opinion. There are more examples, but this is easily more than enough. You can reach the maximum skill level, at the beginning of the game, without physically executing even one attack or spell, and completely overpower everything. That is called broken.

[Naraku]

I see. This whole time I was basically talking about the defense thing, and I completely missed that part about the offense the first time. Maybe I just didn't understand it the first time I read it because I don't remember seeing that at all. That is a pretty big exploit, that makes the system partially broken, but there is nothing forcing anyone to do that. The system can still work like it is meant to, so it's not entirely broken at the same time, just partially.

I'm human I can admit my mistakes, I'm not perfect you know. This whole time I thought we were discussing about the defense part of it being flawed, that is definitely my mistake.

[Ryuuichi009]

It wasn't at all dull. You're leaving out all the interesting parts about the game, such as the tactical choices involved in switching styles. If you are running low on Chi, you need to switch to the style that allows you to restore Chi. Some opponents are immune to physical or magical damage, so that forces you to mix up your styles. There are both armed and unarmed styles, but the armed styles consume focus, which you need to restore. There was a lot going on in that combat system, I think you played a different game than I did if you could win by just pressing the A button repeatedly without considering your tactics.


Actually if you mastered your first weapon it no longer consumed focus...and that made focus pretty much useless for anything other than emergency situations. Chi, could only be used for healing if you wished because the only things that weren't vulnerable to your weapons could be killed using Martial skills and if you used Leaping Tiger that was a breeze. And yes I own the game...and beat it about 20 times. :)

[Kagon Retsuzan]

I loved XII at first, but then grew to loathe the utterly boring battle system and the Gambit system. That, and the story wasn't particularly that great compared to a couple other FFs I can think of (IV being one of them). This was probably the most boring FF I ever played, next to III on DS (after beating that one I never wanted to play through it again).

And I actually loved pretty much every Final Fantasy game I've played minus Dirge of Cerberus, XII, Tactics Advance, the III remake, and XI. Yes, even games that a lot of fans hate like VIII and X. I'm just weird like that.

As for other RPG series I love, there's a whole slew of them, my favorites being Breath of Fire (V was a departure from the series but still kinda fun), Star Ocean, Grandia, and a whole bunch of others.

[Gibb]

I'm late in this thread but here are my opinions:

FF Games played: 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 10-2 (not very much), 12

The only one of those I would say I disliked is 9. Something about 9 just bugged me greatly. The battles seemed boring, the characters were stupid looking (IMHO), and the story seemed dull as well. I think I made it almost through the 2nd disc before I finally gave up and put it down.

12 had my favorite battle system of the series. I really liked the gambit system and I thought it was pulled off quite well. I was hoping the Job Classes International Edition would make it to the states so I could try that version out as well.

Also, I liked FFX quite a bit. I skimmed this thread and saw a lot of complaints about it, but I didn't have too many problems with it. I liked the story, the characters (yeah even Tidus was alright), and the battle system. My only complaint is the English dubbing. After hearing some of the Japanese version of the game, I almost cried because it was so much better than the English dubbing.

[Naraku]

The only one of those I would say I disliked is 9. Something about 9 just bugged me greatly. The battles seemed boring, the characters were stupid looking (IMHO), and the story seemed dull as well. I think I made it almost through the 2nd disc before I finally gave up and put it down.

I think a lot of people felt this way about the game. The game was very quriky and you either liked it or you didn't. It kind of had a different feel than most Final Fantasy games, sort of a childish humor vibe to it I always thought. I enjoyed these aspects of it which is why it's probably one of my top favorites. Also, I thought the battles were pretty challenging especially early and late in the game.