Seriously, What IS Wrong With Google and Wikipedia?

[Alice Catherine]

NOTE: I MAY NOT BE BACK FOR A WHILE TO REPLY TO THIS. I DO TRY TO SNEAK ONLINE PRETTY MUCH ANY WAY I CAN, BUT DON'T EXPECT MIRACLES.


Lately, seeing as we never listen to our teachers at school, the school network, consisting of around 6 teachers, banned not only Wikipedia but Google as well.

So, in one day, both of my theories about school are proved. One is irrelevent but I feel the need to post it anyway 'cause it feels so damn good to be typing up a reply again.

1. If you have 2 teachers that hate you, you will always fail one of their subjects. This is because you spend so much time trying to please one that the other one gets neglected.


This one is relevant to the topic:

2. If something is fun, easy to read, has a decent search engine, and doesn't take more than 5 ****ING HOURS to research with, you are subsequently not allowed to use it. This is because OMFG O NOEZ NOT RELIAMABLE!!!!111

However...
I honestly can't find fault with Wikipedia. After checking my sources and checking my sources, I know no one is going to honestly care enough about prehistoric fish to seriously edit the article. The only articles you really have to watch out for are pop culture ones, and my teachers would die before giving an assignment that was THAT FUN. (With, of course, the selection of the elephant and reality articles, thanks to my pick for the Republican presidential canditate, Stephan Colbert. Am I retarded if I didn't get the elephant joke until 7:26 this morning?)
As for Google, you normally get either a Wiki article or an article of a reliable source, WITHOUT USING THE STUPID LABEL THAT THEY GIVE YOU AT THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR THAT YOU LOSE AND HAVE TO STEAL FROM PRESTON BECAUSE HE'LL BE DAMNED IF HE USES IT.

And it's not as if teachers check, folks.

[Hara!]

I second that notion. I´m always told to look up stuff on University websites (which almost always have mistakes anyway).

[The Million Dollar Prons]

I remember when Encyclopedias were 5-20 books of varying size, and you had to search by letter, and you're ragging because you can't use google?

[Alice Catherine]

^Well, yeah. You were allowed to use what was easy in your time. Why can't I use what's easy in mine?

[The Million Dollar Prons]

^Well, yeah. You were allowed to use what was easy in your time. Why can't I use what's easy in mine?

Because many students, I know at least a dozen, "copy" wikipedia frequently?

CRTL + C + CRTL + P.

[Alice Catherine]

But none of us do. Or else we fail. Do we want to fail AND get in-school-suspension for plagerism? I THINK NOT, MY GOOD SIR.

On that note, that is what I'm grounded for. Saying "She's dead to me" to some girl got me two days of it.

[The Million Dollar Prons]

Because you go to a white school. The teachers at the type of schools us regular people have to go to don't care.

- Prons called you a sell out.

[Solid_Snake]

I'm sick of this pre teen attention wanting thread already.

You can't use Google or Wiki? Good! I think they should both be banned. :P

[Delta-Pheonix]

Because many students, I know at least a dozen, "copy" wikipedia frequently?

CRTL + C + CRTL + P.

I guy in my Biology class tried that... idiot left the hyperlinks in and the essay was twice aslong as it was supposed to be. :lol:

[Soluzar]

Google: Ya can find porn on it pretty easily.

Wikipedia: It's still not a source you can cite. Never will be.

[Solid_Snake]

I remember my last year of High School one of my buddies got busted for searching "George W Bush." in google images. Aparently pornography was involved.

[Alice Catherine]

Google: Ya can find porn on it pretty easily.

Wikipedia: It's still not a source you can cite. Never will be.

But all the porn is blocked. As long as porn and MySpace are blocked, everything else should be accsessible.

[lmc87]

How about you go do some proper research, you might learn something. The internet is an amazing resource but 90% of people that use it are too lazy to do it properly. You shouldn't be able to reference articles from the internet anyway.

[Nami]

How about using both google and other books to do a research? Book, or internet, only one source of information can't validate the accuracy of any information for the serious research.

[Vaikyuko]

But all the porn is blocked. As long as porn and MySpace are blocked, everything else should be accsessible.

If I were a school (principal or something, that is), I'd block all relevant "friend" sites similar to MySpace regardless of popularity, as well as YouTube and other video sites. But since that isn't really related to the topic, I digress.

I've always had to pore over encyclopedias for research papers; my teachers seemed to always hate the internet and demand about ten published sources as opposed to any internet sources (which I found annoying, but hey, you do what you have to do). As for the websites in question: Google is a search engine, so I don't necessarily think it should be banned, but you should at least not need it and have plenty of book sources, at least. As for Wikipedia, anything open to public editing = fail for papers. Even if it does have a good general idea on some stuff, it gets too bogged down too much with incorrect info for me. Much as I love it.

[Alice Catherine]

They do force us to do books, too. But I don't have access to Encyclopedias in my house and when I do my research there I need all the help I can get.

[Neo0tak0n]

I'm confused, google can display both academic journal articles as well as books. Both are 'in print sources'.

[emotoaster]

How about you go do some proper research, you might learn something. The internet is an amazing resource but 90% of people that use it are too lazy to do it properly. You shouldn't be able to reference articles from the internet anyway.

And why not? There are not any "legitimate" sites with correct factual info in them? No the internets are for teh luls.

Google can be a great search engine but there are others out there to use Alice, your school is just over reacting. Wiki is a good place to find random info but the information can be wrong, I think you should be able to cite Wiki but only if you double check the info.

Good luck on the paper.

[Vaikyuko]

They do force us to do books, too. But I don't have access to Encyclopedias in my house and when I do my research there I need all the help I can get.

You're telling me there's no library where you live? I live out in the middle of something that could just barely qualify as a city (more like a town) and we have three or four libraries within twenty miles. Have you never gone to it to use its reference materials?

[Solid_Snake]

It's funny how people react without the internet. We've operated without it just fine for centuries, yet, a kid can't read a damned book for information.

[Alice Catherine]

You're telling me there's no library where you live? I live out in the middle of something that could just barely qualify as a city (more like a town) and we have three or four libraries within twenty miles. Have you never gone to it to use its reference materials?

...the library banned us.

[Ikari Warrior]

They do force us to do books, too. But I don't have access to Encyclopedias in my house and when I do my research there I need all the help I can get.

Consider yourself lucky. I had encyclopedias that were so old, the information was erroneous. Ever try researching Pluto when it hasn't been discovered yet?

ok, I exaggerate, but my home encyclopedias were seriously out of date by about 10 years (in '98 I was citing from encyclopedias bought in '88).

Wikipedia is not a reliable source because anyone can modify it, and it doesn't contain citations, most of the time. If it does, it's probably someone else's term paper, and you STILL don't want to use it, due to the risk of plagiary.

Here's my point of advice: don't use google as a source. Use it for its intended purpose: to FIND your sources. Yes, this means COMBING the internet until you can find something on the internet that also exists in print! This is no easy task, and research never has been.

For example, find an article (or yes, someone else's term paper) on the internet. COMPLETELY IGNORE the content of the article/paper, and instead skip to the citation. It's not plagiary if you use someone else's sources. They've found the data for you, you simply have to find what's relevant to YOUR paper, and put it in there. If you copy the works cited from an A paper, you can pracitcally copy/paste their works cited into your library's electronic card catalog, and you're good to go.

[CrossboneGundam]

Wow. I am just dumbfounded. Kids are pretty lazy these days. "O NOES NOT BOOKZ BLAAAAAARGH!!!!1111"

[lmc87]

And why not? There are not any "legitimate" sites with correct factual info in them? No the internets are for teh luls.

Google can be a great search engine but there are others out there to use Alice, your school is just over reacting. Wiki is a good place to find random info but the information can be wrong, I think you should be able to cite Wiki but only if you double check the info.

Good luck on the paper.

What i'm saying is the internet should not be your only source of information for research. It should be used to find snippets of information that you can then goto the original book in the library or wherever and get the information from there.

It is bad practice for people especially in highschool to just click away and copy and paste, that is not research and doesn't cut it in the real world.

I've seen people get asked questions no thier reports and about the contect and heard replies like "uh i got it from website X" It's a great tool but should be used in moderation, to see that someone complains this bad when they are banned from wiki and google is just sad.

[Gray]

Your ranting because you have to actually Read? Well God Forbid! Jeeze, Slave Drivers they got at those schoolls! forcin' kids to read. When i had to do a Huge Research paper, and i mean it was like 75% of you entire grade, we we're not allowed to even touch a computer. You're lucky they at least give you access to one.

[Soluzar]

When i had to do a Huge Research paper, and i mean it was like 75% of you entire grade, we we're not allowed to even thouch a computer. You're lucky they at least give you access to one.
I would have committed murder. I don't write with a pen. Not more than about half a page. I just don't do it.

[Gray]

I would have committed murder. I don't write with a pen. Not more than about half a page. I just don't do it.

15 Pages, all hand-written, in pen, in cursive. You got point's taken off if your handwriting was crappy, and you we're allowed to mis-spell only a few words before you started dropping letter grades. Sure, we had a couple months to do it, but it was a nightmare.

[HSaabedra]

For the people that actually matter: TL;DR: I'm mad because I have to put in effort for my grade instead of slacking off and using copypasta from Google and Wikipedia. My generation is too busy posting ****ty pictures of themselves on MySpace and writing inane blogs about our oh so great lives to sit and read a book.

[HSaabedra]

15 Pages, all hand-written, in pen, in cursive. You got point's taken off if your handwriting was crappy, and you we're allowed to mis-spell only a few words before you started dropping letter grades. Sure, we had a couple months to do it, but it was a nightmare.

700 pages, full sourcing and attribution, black ink only, full margins and proper indentation. This was a dissertation on engineering regulations and technology applications in motorsport I had to write in order to have my internship renewed while in England. I was 15.

[Gray]

700 pages, full sourcing and attribution, black ink only, full margins and proper indentation. This was a dissertation on engineering regulations and technology applications in motorsport I had to write in order to have my internship renewed while in England. I was 15.

I call BS xD What school did you go to that made you write that at age 15. You would have been only a Freshman in High School, 700 Page Reports are givin in College and rarely handwritten. Hell, even in Senior English Comp AP our largest was 400, it was over the course of the entire Term. Plus, it was computer typed.

[kenshinbebop]

Well, in my school, nieter site is blocked...however in papers we are not allowed to use Wiki as a source. I don't understand what would be wrong with google? That would pretty much mean you have to block ask, yahoo, msn, and all other search engines...

Your school is probably just a part of some malicious underground death cult.


I'd move...

[tenshi_a]

700 pages, full sourcing and attribution, black ink only, full margins and proper indentation. This was a dissertation on engineering regulations and technology applications in motorsport I had to write in order to have my internship renewed while in England. I was 15.
700 pages handwritten = Instant Top Marks.

I mean, no teacher is prepared to read 700 pages of handwritten text! And probably at least 50 of those pages are worth an A grade, so... -_-;

I don't think I've ever written anything more than about 60 pages of handwritten A4 for any one project...

(when I was at school the Internet wasn't part of our lives... and only really well-off people had computers and printers at home... which wasn't me... well, I had a C64 and dot matrix printer, but 80 columns per line? not cool! not cool at all!)

[HSaabedra]

I call BS xD What school did you go to that made you write that at age 15. You would have been only a Freshman in High School, 700 Page Reports are givin in College and rarely handwritten. Hell, even in Senior English Comp AP our largest was 400, it was over the course of the entire Term. Plus, it was computer typed.

This was for the Society of Automotive Engineers. At 15, I was scouted for my driving ability and my ability to understand the engineering side of racecar preparation. I was invited to join the Tau Beta Pi fraternity as a Charter Member.

[Ikari Warrior]

700 pages, full sourcing and attribution, black ink only, full margins and proper indentation. This was a dissertation on engineering regulations and technology applications in motorsport I had to write in order to have my internship renewed while in England. I was 15.

****. That.

[Cow]

One reason teachers don't allow Wikipedia (especially on the college level) is that anyone can post information. My professor once told me how they did a study, posted an article that was completely false and have everyone vote to keep it / that its true and thats what happened. Quite funny actually.

[sailornyanko]

I call BS xD What school did you go to that made you write that at age 15. You would have been only a Freshman in High School, 700 Page Reports are givin in College and rarely handwritten. Hell, even in Senior English Comp AP our largest was 400, it was over the course of the entire Term. Plus, it was computer typed.

Holy moly! I agree too. I'm a med student and I've never been requested to do something as hideous as that. Yeah, I have two aissigments right now for vacations and a heck of a lot of material to study (and a surgery I'm going to see tomorrow downtown), but still... 700 pages? O_o'

And I complain about the Melchor aissigments where we have 2 days (in relaity= two nights considering we leave school at horrid hours and add 2 hours of traffic just for the fun of it) to create a flowchart of a poorly explained clinical case. To add more fun, he likes to randomly give really horrid flunked scores n matter how well you did the assignment. Cuse screwing med students is fun.

I'd never use Wiki, I use books.

Sigh, I remember the time I had to go all the way to UNAM Iztacala to look for some decent biology articles in panels of science magazines that were 30 years old. I should of gone the whole way and went to CU (which is lie 3 hours away from where I live).

*Sigh* Kids these days. And google is filled with porn sites.

[Hara!]

My trick is to cite the sources in the wiki article.

And really, it´s easy to tell when something is wrong on Wikipedia...

[Cow]

Well yes when looking up how to spell blue, Wiki is usually right. I'll give you that one.

:)

[Ken-Ohki]

Hey now hey now, I read the New York Times where Wikipedia was judged just as accurate as the Encyclopedia Britannica. Of course anyone CAN go out and say, hmmmm . . . space aliens invented movable type but it's going to be changed rather quickly to be accurate.

The problem with Wikipedia is not accuracy. I guess the problem with Wiki is people are untrusting of peer review. After all, who says that Dave or Pete or Billy Bob know anything about black holes? Just because your uncle Bob may be right when he talks about quantum mechanics doesn't mean he's a source you can quote. Same goes for Wiki. Wiki of course is supposed to site sources for everything they write so I'd still use it, just jump around the references at the bottom till you dig up something teachers are going to accept.

And nobody should say "well in my day . . ." Boo hoo, this is no longer our day, the day of researching through 50 musty old books is dead and will thankfully never need come again. Get over it and let the kids work on computers as the information age lets em. I notice quite a lot of sour grapes when I see what teachers still require of kids when doing research.

[Sendo Takeshi]

Wait, kids don't look at books anymore for information? At this rate, the future is looking grim for us. If this current generation is that lazy, then I fear for my retirement in 40 years.

[HSaabedra]

Wait, kids don't look at books anymore for information? At this rate, the future is looking grim for us. If this current generation is that lazy, then I fear for my retirement in 40 years.

I could help you invest so that you can retire by then. :)

[Sendo Takeshi]

I could help you invest so that you can retire by then. :)


That would be dopesauce, kind sir.

[Leader Desslock]

You know, whenever I had a research paper to do, I just brought myself up to an understanding of the topic (usually at the library), wrote what I wanted, then made up my own quotes and sources to support my information.

What ever happened to creativity in today's generation?

I didn't hand-write papers, since my handwriting looks like chicken scratching. I typed my papers on this huge old Underwood manual typewriter.

...the library banned us.
The plot thickens. Do tell.

[tenshi_a]

The plot thickens. Do tell.

I suddenly remembered that long thread we had about a news report showing a guy masturbating in front of a computer screen in a public library. :(

[lmc87]

And nobody should say "well in my day . . ." Boo hoo, this is no longer our day, the day of researching through 50 musty old books is dead and will thankfully never need come again. Get over it and let the kids work on computers as the information age lets em. I notice quite a lot of sour grapes when I see what teachers still require of kids when doing research.

Books will never die, ever. The internet has its flaws.

It's not the teachers fault either, in the real world people are required to do realresearch.

[sailornyanko]

I didn't hand-write papers, since my handwriting looks like chicken scratching. I typed my papers on this huge old Underwood manual typewriter.

:lol: I still used typewriters to do elementary grade assignments. Heck, all of the public hospitals I've been to still use typewriters to write clinical charts far more often than pc's!

[goddessofanime]

Anyone can basically write whatever they want on wikipedia. It's not a reliable source for anything.

Go research the hard way. Go read up on it.

[Leader Desslock]

:lol: I still used typewriters to do elementary grade assignments. Heck, all of the public hospitals I've been to still use typewriters to write clinical charts far more often than pc's!
For typing in prepared forms, a typewriter's a better tool than a PC. it's faster, easier, and a lot less can go wrong with it. Kids learn "keyboarding" these days, but I wonder what ever happened to good old-fashioned TYPING classes.

Of course, there's also the cardiovascular benefit you get from the workout of trying to lug those old typewriters around...

[Ken-Ohki]

Ok, seriously why are we insisting kids learn an archaic form of research? We live in the information age for God's sake, lets teach kids how to live in it.

[HSaabedra]

Try being a reporter for the wireless industry then come back and tell me to use books. I can see where reading books would help in academia, but when your chosen field of journalism practically shuns print due to changes on a daily basis, it's a bit of a misdirected judgment to say all research should be done with books. New communication standards and practices are ratified on an almost daily basis, as well as new standards for content delivery and transmission. Let's not even get into the trade show schedule where you have to update news to the second, or the massive amount of press releases submitted every day.

[goddessofanime]

For academia, go read.

For everything else..like Axl's job for example...internet is good.

[sailornyanko]

Of course, there's also the cardiovascular benefit you get from the workout of trying to lug those old typewriters around...

Maybe people that got osteoarthritis from using typewriters forced everyone to switch to pc.

It's a conspiracy! :-"

[Leader Desslock]

Ok, seriously why are we insisting kids learn an archaic form of research? We live in the information age for God's sake, lets teach kids how to live in it.
I have no problem with letting kids perform research online, once they're mentally capable of telling the difference between: a) well-supported, peer-reviewed, scholarly research, and b) this totally awsome blog where, like, Brittany was SOOOO right that one time. Sadly, such a high percentage of today's youth is incapable of judging the veracity of the information with which they're bombarded that I can't say I disagree with Alice's teachers.

Here's a compromise: How about if schools teach a Critical Thinking class - PRIOR to any research paper assignments. Any student who gets an A+ in the Critical Thinking class can use the internet to conduct research. Any student who fails to demonstrate a high level of critical thinking skills has to be protected from his/her own incompetence by using "archaic" (please :rolleyes: ) sources of information. They can take the CT test once a year if they want to try again.

Does that sound like a good compromise? I think it does.

I'm willing to bet that more kids in the US would pass a World Geography test than a Critical Thinking test. And we all know how well we Americans do in Geography...

[tenshi_a]

I just thought of something...

Aren't there some online encylopedias that aren't wikipedia? I mean... online versions of the ones that we traditionally think of as being in book-form only?

[HSaabedra]

I just thought of something...

Aren't there some online encylopedias that aren't wikipedia? I mean... online versions of the ones that we traditionally think of as being in book-form only?

You are absolutely correct. Brittanica has an awesome online encyclopedia.

[tenshi_a]

Well then, as long as Alice Catherine gets to it *not through google* (so try yahoo!), she's got a citeable resource she can get to from home!

[Hara!]

In defense of wiki, I would like to call to mention these articles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_articles).

They represent the best of wiki because they are well referenced, and make for very reliable articles.

Things that people are supremely obsessed over (Star Trek, Star Wars, real wars, Buffy, Doctor Who) tend to have great articles.

Famous brand names like Naruto and Final Fantasy tend to be vandalized by people a lot, but quickly reverted.

Stuff with small cult followings (Jojo´s Bizarre Adventure, Kinnikuman, Donpachi, Tohou) tend to have a lot of disconjoined, but semi-reliable articles.

It all depends on the subject, and how you assess quality.

[Tenou]

For typing in prepared forms, a typewriter's a better tool than a PC. it's faster, easier, and a lot less can go wrong with it. Kids learn "keyboarding" these days, but I wonder what ever happened to good old-fashioned TYPING classes.

Of course, there's also the cardiovascular benefit you get from the workout of trying to lug those old typewriters around...

I did a typing course not too long ago, about... 2, 5, 7... Jesus, it was a long time ago, probably about 7 or 8 years, now (no offence meant, Dess).
Anyway, it was a weird mixture between working on a typewriter and using Word... I don't even know what. But there was no fancy button to do alignment... I always lost points because I couldn't get things aligned properly. No Windows, we had to use DOS... those were the days... back when the computers I used were so out of date it was laughable.

As for Wikipedia, that thing is full of incorrect information and I would fail anyone who used it rather than take a few hours to do some real research... And no, that doesn't mean it has to be books. More than half of my research is done online because most of my university's journals and even many books are available online.
Wiki is like going to your friend who thinks they know the answers.

Google... Ok, here's a Ten'ou story.
I'm doing a course on the works of Chaucer and I found a decent source for a modern translation. Seems like a decent site, found it through google, and it's very educational. Agree?
Well, time comes for me to choose a paper topic. Well, I'm thinking I'd like to do something concerning feminism, but I'm not quite sure. But at the top of this site there's a search bar that asks the topic of your paper... I'm thinking it might give me some resources or ideas on how to narrow my topic. Yes, I know, I'm optimistic to the point of naive.
Turns out it's a link to buying essays. Yes, a seemingly educational site is promoting cheating. Am I impressed? No.

Moral of the story? Smarten up and don't be lazy... ok, it might be hard to find that moral in my story, but 'the internet corrupts' ... That just seems redundant.
But trust me, for the most part, people deserve what they get. Besides, what are you going to do when you get to college, university, or the workforce? School isn't about teaching facts. It's about giving you life skills. Wiki is not a life skill. Research is.

[lmc87]

Ok, seriously why are we insisting kids learn an archaic form of research? We live in the information age for God's sake, lets teach kids how to live in it.

Because the amount of information stored in books is uncomprehensable to the amount of information on the internet. The internet is good for finding what books contain and where to find them and while you may get information from the internet 9 times out of ten the information will be in much higher quality in a book. Google is very hard to use unless you become very selective in what you enter and the information you find may not be what your really looking for.

It is this low quality information that lots of students are using and it is seriously dropping the standards of highschools and what people are expected off.

Theres an old saying, if theres a job worth doing its worth doing well. And in my opinion there are too many people getting shocked when they have graduated highschool/univeristy etc and when they get asked to do a real peice of research they get stuck at the hurdles because they simpley don't know what to do.

[{NG}Fidel]

I think wikipedia is a good refrance for a sort of overview on topics but with some of the resources my school has for online databases their is no point using it. Now I dont like how they spend money on posters that tout anti wikipedia statements.

[Hara!]

I keep on saying this: It depends on where you get your info. Even books can be full of crap. I can´t tell you the amount of contradictions I have found while researching things in a library. But being able to tell when something is legit and something is not is just a part of life. You can´t just accept what you hear on wiki because they are ¨kinda reliable¨ or what you see in a book because ¨it managed to get published¨.

[Gray]

This was for the Society of Automotive Engineers. At 15, I was scouted for my driving ability and my ability to understand the engineering side of racecar preparation. I was invited to join the Tau Beta Pi fraternity as a Charter Member.

Scouted for your driving ability? You didn't even have a License at that age, just a Permit. Meaning someone had to be in the vehicle everyime you wanted to drive.

[Chousho]

Back in my day we were too busy about keeping the stinkin' Brits out of our newly founded country to worry about any lousy "movable block print" what have you nonsense.

Kids these days are spoiled with their "Inter net" and their "Ovaltine".

[Ketaru]

Things that people are supremely obsessed over (Star Trek, Star Wars, real wars, Buffy, Doctor Who) tend to have great articles.

Obsessed in a certain way maybe, I never liked the kind of things said in articles about politically charged issues. You read it. No matter how impartial the writer, you can just tell what side of the fence they're on.

[HSaabedra]

Scouted for your driving ability? You didn't even have a License at that age, just a Permit. Meaning someone had to be in the vehicle everyime you wanted to drive.

Dude, I'm a test driver for a couple new race teams and am a consultant.

[Leader Desslock]

Back in my day we were too busy about keeping the stinkin' Brits out of our newly founded country to worry about any lousy "movable block print" what have you nonsense.
Och, ye had PRINT, did ye? Back in MY day we had stones. An' they dinna MEAN nothin, ye ken. They was just stones. As me pap al'las said, "Writin's an evil mischief, but ye know where ye stand wi' a stone."

If ye ask me, schools should be aboot teachin' laddies what they need to know aboot stones.

[RPGQueen]

wow no google. at the U that I attened it is reconmeded that we use google for our papers.

[Tenou]

wow no google. at the U that I attened it is reconmeded that we use google for our papers.

I don't mean to sound... rude? Anything that makes me sound like a *****, really.
But how could google help you with an academic paper? The resources I can find through NovaNet (a database connecting all NS university libraries) are greater and, more importantly, verifiable and academic. It would take so much longer to find quality information through google.
I just finished up a paper on Canadian technology... typed in Canada and Technology into NovaNet, and boom, I've got about 30 listings. I hit the stacks, choose the relevant ones, and I'm done. I also used websites, because I had to do a bit on government involvement, especially integration with the internet, and where better to get that information than the source?
I'd be skeptical of anyone who would encourage using google instead of the school's library.

[Chousho]

But how could google help you with an academic paper?
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=topic

[Tenou]

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=topic

Yes, I know about google scholar... but you have to pay for most of the articles when you could get either the same thing or similar free through your library university. So, if you don't want to pay through the nose to do a research paper, how can google help you?

[Evil_Koala]

I copy whole wikipedia articles for projects...I mean...Uhh...APRIL FOOLS!!! Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaah.

Smooth, Koala, Smoooooth.


If you can't use google...USE CHACHA. It's like the best search engine ever...EVER

[Hara!]

I copy whole wikipedia articles for projects...I mean...Uhh...APRIL FOOLS!!! Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaah.

Smooth, Koala, Smoooooth.


If you can't use google...USE CHACHA. It's like the best search engine ever...EVER

I love to tell them to look for CP, Hello.jpg, and The Pain Series.

[The Million Dollar Prons]

I use google to search for Anime!

Note: It's pretty sweet how AN is the 5th result for "anime," on google

[Suiko Eiji]

Wow. I am just dumbfounded. Kids are pretty lazy these days. "O NOES NOT BOOKZ BLAAAAAARGH!!!!1111"

I agree. Knowing what scholarly research in journals and encyclopedias is supposed to look like is much more beneficial than just looking something up on the 'Net.


The problem with Wikipedia is not accuracy. I guess the problem with Wiki is people are untrusting of peer review. After all, who says that Dave or Pete or Billy Bob know anything about black holes? Just because your uncle Bob may be right when he talks about quantum mechanics doesn't mean he's a source you can quote. Same goes for Wiki.

I think Wiki does need some defenders - as an encyclopedia of all around geekery, it doesn't do a half bad job. As an encyclopedia overall, it's fairly poor.

I'm not sure if you meant to say this, but I think your comments should read "Maybe the problem with Wikipedia is not accuracy. The problem with Wiki is Wiki's problem with traditional peer reveiw." I think statements and edits with people who have verifiable experience, education, or training should be given much higher levels of credit and editability, rather than just opening up everything to Joe Schmoe.

I will admit this in praise of Wikipedia - it knows there are problems and is trying to fix them.

Ok, seriously why are we insisting kids learn an archaic form of research? We live in the information age for God's sake, lets teach kids how to live in it.

Because archaeic research generally shows what good research is supposed to look like. Once you know what good research looks like, then you know what to look for when searching on the Internet. The problem is, even though this is the Information Age, there's a lot of biased BS intermingling with good, solid information. Despite how trivial it sounds, most people now a days, even in the Information Age, can't separate the two.

Try being a reporter for the wireless industry then come back and tell me to use books.

Depends on what you're writing about and whom you're writing it for, honestly. I work in IT, I'm researching stuff on Google everyday. But that's work and so long as I can sort out its correctness and make it look professional, that's generally good enough. Specifically talking about wireless, this is an academic exercise, with an academic audience and academic purpose. For a good wireless topic, research GSM and CDMA and find the better signal/frequency - you can get most of your information out of the ACM and IEEE journals I would bet.

I'm in much higher praise of Google Search than I am of Wiki (because of too much variability). But at the same time, as I reiterate myself, it's imporant to know books and what published research actually looks like. You never know when you might have to look something up that's not digitized yet. Besides, Alice is what, 13? Tough it out and you might learn something new. And by the time your teachers get around to "teaching" you something new, something will probably replace Google and you'll already know how to use it. Find a library - school, local, county, university, whatever - and just do your research in a few hours, then write your paper.

[Evil_Koala]

I love to tell them to look for CP, Hello.jpg, and The Pain Series.

Yes...Right now I am demanding they sing me YAH ***** by Soulja Boy

[Haro!]

No Google? Use microsoft search engine, whatever the hell it's called.

[GreatNekoKoneko]

...just ask me. go on. ASK.

[HSaabedra]

Depends on what you're writing about and whom you're writing it for, honestly. I work in IT, I'm researching stuff on Google everyday. But that's work and so long as I can sort out its correctness and make it look professional, that's generally good enough. Specifically talking about wireless, this is an academic exercise, with an academic audience and academic purpose. For a good wireless topic, research GSM and CDMA and find the better signal/frequency - you can get most of your information out of the ACM and IEEE journals I would bet.


Then you should know that the ACM and IEEE do not certify GSM and CDMA standards because all frequencies used by both standards (450Mhz-2100Ghz) require dedicated licensed radio spectrum, the difference being one standard can use unpaired spectrum on the uplink and downlink, while the other can't, one only requires 1.25Mhz blocks, the other requires 5Mhz blocks minimum for good signal propagation. The International Telecommunications Union and Cellular Telecommunications Industry Association ratify new standards while the GSM Association and CDMA Development Group are industry groups focused on their respective standards.

[Alice Catherine]

I DO LOOK AT BOOKS.
But when I get HOME, I don't have access to books. Plus, getting on for school helps me get on AN to talk to you guys!

[The Million Dollar Prons]

Q: Have you ever listened to Pink Floyd's THE WALL cd?

WE DON'T NEED NO, EDUCATION.

[tenshi_a]

I first saw the music video for Another Brick In The Wall when I was about 5 years old... the Gerald Scarfe animation... it absolutely terrified me... my dad had the album on tape... he'd play it in his car... images of children being put through a meat mincing machine would come back to me... along with the marching Nazi hammers and that puppet teacher... :crybaby:

I've been pro-education (anti-bad-teaching) ever since. And I really don't like that song.

In the old days, people used to worry about thought-control... these days... there's a huge wave of media designed to cater for people so that it's so rare anyone actually has any individual thought. Reality TV, social-networking websites, marketing-driven culture, blog-driven journalism, idiots laughing at the same damn phrase being repeated ad infinitum... It's more voluntary thought-suppression. Your thoughts don't need controlling if you don't want to think in the first place. And people lap it up. That song's not relevant anymore...

And so, talking about the lack of individual thought... we come back to wikipedia... >_<

[Soluzar]

The Wall is both Pink Floyd's most accessible work and their least interesting. It's shrink-wrapped, candy-coated rebellion for people who don't want to be challenged.

[Old Ape Face]

lol non individuality isn't being forced in this country. In fact if you're looking for individuality, you'll find no better country to worship this then the United States. you don't have to watch Tv if you don't want to. you Don't have to view the Internet if you don't want too. the only reason people are on the Interweb is becuase they're lazy and they find it addicting.

[Suiko Eiji]

Then you should know that the ACM and IEEE do not certify GSM and CDMA standards because all frequencies used by both standards (450Mhz-2100Ghz) require dedicated licensed radio spectrum, the difference being one standard can use unpaired spectrum on the uplink and downlink, while the other can't, one only requires 1.25Mhz blocks, the other requires 5Mhz blocks minimum for good signal propagation. The International Telecommunications Union and Cellular Telecommunications Industry Association ratify new standards while the GSM Association and CDMA Development Group are industry groups focused on their respective standards.

Oh ho~ I wasn't aware of that at all. Guess that's what I get for never looking in them for that information.

I DO LOOK AT BOOKS.
But when I get HOME, I don't have access to books. Plus, getting on for school helps me get on AN to talk to you guys!

That's why we're saying to go to a library! Libraries have TONS of books on a multitude of subjects, many of which might actually be able to, get this, provide information for your paper. Sure, it's a little bit harder than just tossing poo-poo into Google (or some other search engine) and seeing what sticks.

Besides, you should worry more about getting your homework and research done than talking to us here on AN.

[tenshi_a]

The Wall is both Pink Floyd's most accessible work and their least interesting. It's shrink-wrapped, candy-coated rebellion for people who don't want to be challenged.
In other words, rebellion for boy-bands (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMwUou6mM0g)?
(Come on! Sing along, you sheep!)

[Soluzar]

In other words, rebellion for boy-bands (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMwUou6mM0g)?
Wow! They can actually play instruments?! Who ever would have guessed?

Yeah, sounds about right. You listen to some of their other stuff, it's about 100x more musically complex, and lyrically interesting. Sometimes the lyrics don't seem to mean a whole lot, but that's the prog rock style. The Wall is interesting as a concept album, in some ways... but I could happily lose it from my collection and not miss it.

[Sendo Takeshi]

Besides, you should worry more about getting your homework and research done than talking to us here on AN.


At this rate, I think we mean the world to her. So if she gets banned, it's the end of the world for her. Interesting. I feel popular now.

[Old Ape Face]

If you were to consider the Wall to be their least interesting piece then, Revolution 9 was just a Prop for the White Album. I mean all the great artists made a point driving piece, the Beatles had a lot of them, but Led Zeppelin did Stair Way to Heaven, Jimmy Hendrix did All Along the Watch Tower... I can't think of any other songs that tried to make a real life point... I need to listen to more 70s-80s music. But that's what made those bands popular, becuase they did almost everything in the book. If you think about today's bands, I think the band that made the biggest cultural point was Green Day, with American Idiot. the next band from them is probably Red Hot Chili Peppers. Still these 90s bands don't put the heart in it like the bands in the 70s who basically invented all this stuff.

I think that's it for my Rant of the day.

[Ariel Tsuki]

Oh wow. The arguments against using Wikipedia or Google is pretty outstanding and kinda silly in a way. And this is coming from a person who was born in a generation that used books as references and using the internet pretty late in the school game (started doing it around junior year in high school). Just because you can edit Wiki doesn't neccesarily mean it's unrelaible. People LOVE to say Wikipedia is unreliable because you can edit it but don't know there's constant monitoring from mods on the site. Although I never used Wiki for my research back in college (didn't know about it then), I do some Wiki surfing here and there. I don't see why a student can site a Wiki article that has citations from other sources that you can easily access and have articles tell you that they don't have any/little/not too reliable citiations. But with anything, even books, you need to find a secondary source that supports all or most of the points. There no excuse to question Wiki's reliability especially there's been research that it's NO LESS RELIABLE than the Britannia. Let's admit that we wished that we had the convenience back when we were in school.

It's really an argument of convenience like many generations prior had. And yes, you still have to read the internet articles as like a book (which you mostly likely won't be reading the whole thing anyway) and sort through many before you can find a valuable piece of info to use for your paper, like a book. Don't know where that attitude come from...

I found the internet pretty convinent back in college when I was a Psych major, I used reliable internet sources (with citations) in my paper beside the Psych search engines that were full of Psych articles from past peer-reviewed research magazine issues that my school was subscribed to.

Plus, I find online encyclopedia more reliable than their book form because it's usually updated instead a backlog of subjects from the year prior.

And the case of kids copypasta-ing, it's funny we all forget that our generation did something similar like typing articles word by word. My friends basically copied word to word from encyclopedia back in grade school. Hell, I admit I was guilty of the practice, although I didn't know it was wrong when I did it (I was in the 6th Grade and I had to write a 6-8 page paper about a country). Plus, I think with the usage of the internet as a research tool raised the concern of plagarism. Trust me, my college DRILLED the fact that if you get caught, not only you fail the class, but you will be suspended and prolly face expulsion. That made everyone very wary of doing it.

But yeah, OP, there's not much you can do about your teacher's attitude.
But people do need to catch up with the times and realize that change and convenience isn't that bad.

[Suiko Eiji]

I don't see why a student can site a Wiki article that has citations from other sources that you can easily access and have articles tell you that they don't have any/little/not too reliable citiations.

I argued something similar with a professor of mine a couple of semesters ago. He said, use Wiki to gain access to the sources, then research the sources and cite those. Wiki does a good job of listing citations when they're there, most of the time.

Maybe it is out-moded thinking of professors whom won't accept an error from Wiki but will from something like Britannica. Prestige and history allow for a lot of leeway.

[sailornyanko]

I DO LOOK AT BOOKS.
But when I get HOME, I don't have access to books. Plus, getting on for school helps me get on AN to talk to you guys!

Books aren't that expensive in the states. You could buy some good science books at a bookstore that you could use over and over again for HS assignments. In Mexico books are so expensive that journalists have lately been joking that muggers will stop stealing your shoes and start stealing your books instead. :lol:

With an average book price of 50 US dollars on a 400 buck a month payroll, I think there's some truth in the joke.

Boy, it's nice to chat on AN and all, but you should be doing it on your free time like on weekends or something. I'm here right now because I'm kinda on vacation. I have been going to AN very little this past month because school is first.

[Chousho]

I argued something similar with a professor of mine a couple of semesters ago. He said, use Wiki to gain access to the sources, then research the sources and cite those. Wiki does a good job of listing citations when they're there, most of the time.

Maybe it is out-moded thinking of professors whom won't accept an error from Wiki but will from something like Britannica. Prestige and history allow for a lot of leeway.
So basically it's like the kid's game where you whisper to each other in a circle, and see if what you end up with is the same as what you started with. It is a good idea to trace back your sources as far as you can, if the subject is really that important. I've found Wiki to be good for giving me a general idea of what's going on. I won't trust it word for word just yet, especially after seeing how some of the mods (or whatever they call themselves) operate with a superiority complex.

Every single class I've been in where we were told to cite sources Wikipedia was not allowed. Is it a reason to complain? Not really, I can definitely see why. Have a flaw with an Encyclopedia and call up World Book. Have a flaw with Wikipedia and call up... some random person if your'e lucky enough to not just get an IP addy.

[Suiko Eiji]

So basically it's like the kid's game where you whisper to each other in a circle, and see if what you end up with is the same as what you started with.

Sort of, but it's more of when you get the message, you go back and ask the second or third kid in line.

[Old Ape Face]

On topic.

Google: while it has access to millions of sources, either through web page searching articles, Images, now Video sources. not everything you find on Google is a reliable source, in fact I'm a bit annoyed about the sources I haven't found on a particular topic. either because there's not enough information, or the website itself is a poor resource, the only reliable source pages I find end in the destination address for, .edu, or .gov. everything else is liable to be false information, Explicit content (which is the most used form of information on the internet, and can't possibly be avoided even if it's locked down with a password or blocked.) or to be some other form of conflict that might hinder research.

Wikipedia: While this might look like a reliable research organization most of the information is sourced by personal experience, notes, and borrowed information. it is not considered scholarly information because most of it had been edited revised or changed through community reviews. A scholarly source includes Authenticity by an applied study, in which the information has been tested and proven true by a professional in that particular field of study. whether the content is low in quality it is still composed from an experienced author.

Because Wikipedia is edited and revised by a community, it's very difficult to identify plagiarism if taken directly from the source. In fact it's very easy to reword the same information because it's been changed so many times.

[Alice Catherine]

I understand that I can go on on weekends, but when I'm grounded I can't an I need to get all the "school time" I can get.

Plus, the school didn't lock GameFaqs. Or Harry Potter sites. I can't concentrate.

[CrossboneGundam]

Plus, the school didn't lock GameFaqs. Or Harry Potter sites. I can't concentrate.

It's your choice to enter those web addresses or searches instead of doing your school work. :P

[Leader Desslock]

I understand that I can go on on weekends, but when I'm grounded ...
Again, the plot thickens. Do tell...

[Soluzar]

Again, the plot thickens. Do tell...
I'm willing to put good money on this having something to do with the one of the disposable boyfriend-of-the-week boys that she so often talks about. Or Haro! of course...

[Haro!]

I did nothing with or to her. I am 100% innocent in this matter.

[Jabberwock]

Google is nice.

As for Wikipedia, there's about 300% more content on Captain America than there is on Theodore Roosevelt.

That's all I have to say to that.

[Gejutsuka]

Simply put, there is something inherently cautionary about a site that purports facts, that anyone can edit.

Suredly common sense, and observation has shown you that not everyone may know with 100% verity what they are writing about? It would be different if a Wiki or even an collected online respository would make sure that those that edit it are at least in some sort of consensus with regard to facts, definitions, nomencalture, and historical evidence.

Being a writer and artisan, I can tell you that there are very few, who can and will write on specific articles without flavoring, bias, or injecting it with the usual "I know what I know because so and so said so".

Even my great friend here Bernard and I disagreed on the very definition of wolves in Webster's Dictionary. The definition purports it as a bane to livestock and a dentrimental canid. Having studied them for six years and photographed them collectively for hundreds of hours and photos, I see quite the contrary. Bernard's reasons were valid, given his experiences. Mine were also, given my biological studies on the packs and vocalizations. Were we to both state and cite on a Wiki, it could come across quite confusing.

It is this aspect that I feel does a disservice to anyone seeking information from a Wiki, especially when they come to it from the need and want of information.

[Alice Catherine]

Again, the plot thickens. Do tell...

Said what I did. Told a girl she was "dead to me". Got two days in-school-suspension.

[tenshi_a]

But you said 2 days (which is only 2 days!), plus you were banned from the library plus you were grounded!

(what's so offensive about "dead to me"? was the context that you got into a fight and last time you saw her she was lying in a pool of blood, or something?)

[The Million Dollar Prons]

I love wikipedia, and I use it frequently, but I will admit there's a lot of unciting going on, take a gander at the Korean War article, and look at how little citations there are in the paragraphs. They're not really big fans of telling us where they got the info from.

[Midoriko87]

Google? Wikipedia? Never heard of 'em. Now, GALILEO... *Sigh* FREE Access to all them Databases with all them full-text articles from all them scholarly journals and periodicals... *Sigh* They basically hand you an "A" in this state. :lol: Oh... guess I'm not helping. :unsure:

But, it's funny, an English Professor at my school said that the Wiki article on Nathaniel Hawthorne began, "He enjoyed gay sex all night long." That's not there anymore, so I guess it was reported... Just imagine... "Hawthorne was most definitely gay, Ms. Francois. The article on Wikipedia states, 'he enjoyed gay sex all night long.'" :lol: Anywho, Good Luck!!

Oh, www.ipl.org.

[Alice Catherine]

I got ungrounded for helping with the shed and watching my brother.
FLIPPIN' SWEET!

[Haro!]

I got ungrounded for helping with the shed and watching my brother.
FLIPPIN' SWEET!
Nice, now could you please tell them that you getting grounded had nothing to do with me.

[CrossboneGundam]

Nice, now could you please tell them that you getting grounded had nothing to do with me.

I don't think that'll get you out of the slammer. :P

[Soluzar]

Nice, now could you please tell them that you getting grounded had nothing to do with me.
I believed you the first time. It's not like I was being completely serious when I said it might be you anyway. If such wisecracks trouble you, then you need but say the word, and they shall be expunged from my future posts. Some might say that a Biscuit cracking wise is but the least of the occupational hazards of your stated taste in girls, but I shall stand by your wishes ;)

[Haro!]

I don't think that'll get you out of the slammer. :P

Damn that DNA!

[Alice Catherine]

*public statement*

I DID NOT HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH THAT BoA FAN.

[Lord Dagoth]

700 pages? That doesn't even seem...right

[Chousho]

*public statement*

I DID NOT HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH THAT BoA FAN.

However, I can not say the same for BoA ;D
We're thinking of a name for the child as we speak.

[Haro!]

However, I can not say the same for BoA ;D
We're thinking of a name for the child as we speak.
What are you talking about? That's my kid. (Oh no we just turned BoA into Anna Nicole Smith)

[goddessofanime]

How did this go from Wiki and Google to 'I got grounded again.'?

[Haro!]

How did this go from Wiki and Google to 'I got grounded again.'?

See I didn't see the connection as to where Google/Wiki had to do with being grounded either, but i went along with the change in pace.
Wikipedia and Google are God's gift to community college students and those of us majoring in remedial studies.

[goddessofanime]

What I want to know is, how does one get expelled for saying 'I wish you were dead?'.

[Chousho]

What are you talking about? That's my kid. (Oh no we just turned BoA into Anna Nicole Smith)
Oh no you din't. Mentioning Boa and. Anna Nicole Smith in the same sentence? (See, I couldn't even do it myself!)
What I want to know is, how does one get expelled for saying 'I wish you were dead?'.
This is most likely the same type of school that banned Dodgeball. Wimps.

[Old Ape Face]

See I didn't see the connection as to where Google/Wiki had to do with being grounded either, but i went along with the change in pace.
Wikipedia and Google are God's gift to community college students and those of us majoring in remedial studies.

Actually I got an F for my Chinese Philosophy paper, becuase i sourced from Wiki ^_^ now i have to drop the cource before it kills my GPA.

[Haro!]

Actually I got an F for my Chinese Philosophy paper, becuase i sourced from Wiki ^_^ now i have to drop the cource before it kills my GPA.

Wait do you go to community college or major in remedial studies?

[Old Ape Face]

Wait do you go to community college or major in remedial studies?

I go to Community College and I'm in the Digital Arts Multimedia program, in which Chinese Philosophy is only an elective.

and Wiki = fail for research.

[Haro!]

Ah i see. maybe its good only for us remedial studies majors.

[Old Ape Face]

lol my community is good in that we get short time instructors who are highly experienced in their subject. my Chinese Philosophy Instructor is a strict Confucian, who expects high quality research material, and a well written research paper, I'm not exactly a scholar or a study professional myself so I'm gonna drop the cource. I wanted to learn a bit about Asian philosophy but I wasn't prepared for the class.

[The Million Dollar Prons]

What I want to know is, how does one get expelled for saying 'I wish you were dead?'.

She's an angry white girl. Goes to a rich white school in New York. Put the two together. Yukimura-Sanada took Chinese Philosophy, I think he'd agree with me she probably suffers from little emperor syndrome.

[Old Ape Face]

hehe the class was interesting don't get me wrong, but I took in too much for me to handle all at once.

:huh: who are we talking about again.

[Haro!]

She's an angry white girl. Goes to a rich white school in New York. Put the two together. Yukimura-Sanada took Chinese Philosophy, I think he'd agree with me she probably suffers from little emperor syndrome.
No no she's from PA. Rich white girls in NY rich white schools don't get in trouble or have to pay the consequences for their actions. Even if they kill someone they get away with it.

[Meson]

I did use Wiki on a paper on what is science for a scince in literature class. However, I only used what would some up to be 1 paragraph in the several page article on science. Of course, I had both research exprience and knowledge on how the internet works to know that that paragraph was the only useful piece of information in that entire article.

Alice, you may think you are ready to use the internet, but I doubt it. Take your teachers' advice and use your local library, and gain that ability to instantly know when information is valid and useful. You will be amazed on how faster your internet searches will be once you master teh library and real books.

[Alice Catherine]

No no she's from PA. Rich white girls in NY rich white schools don't get in trouble or have to pay the consequences for their actions. Even if they kill someone they get away with it.

Everyone was freaking out at me. I believe that the definition of the term "dead to me" is that you break off ties with someone.
But it was all stupid Alex's fault. We almost broke up.


On Wiki:
Meh, we don't list sources for most assignments, but I just use Google to find sources with assignments that do. I mean, don't tell me what I can and cannot do on my computer at home. The only thing that's illegal here is plagarism.

[Solid_Snake]

But it was all stupid Alex's fault. We almost broke up.


Wow. I've never heard so much **** I couldn't care less about in my life. And the sad thing is you're saying this on the internet. Maybe they should ban all web sites on the puters.

[Suiko Eiji]

Wow. I've never heard so much **** I couldn't care less about in my life. And the sad thing is you're saying this on the internet. Maybe they should ban all web sites on the puters.

Nah, how about eliminating DNS mapping/routing?

[Tenou]

On Wiki:
Meh, we don't list sources for most assignments, but I just use Google to find sources with assignments that do. I mean, don't tell me what I can and cannot do on my computer at home. The only thing that's illegal here is plagarism.

I hate to tell you this, hon, but you are plagiarising. What you do on your home computer is your business (to a point). But your teacher can tell you what you can and can not do for your assignment, even if you do that assignment on your computer.

If you use a source and don't cite it... that's plagiarism. If you copy and paste from a source and don't cite it... that's plagiarism. If you paraphrase and don't cite it... that's plagiarism. If you get an idea from a source and don't cite it... yes, you guessed it, that's plagiarism.

Plagiarism isn't just copying someone else's entire work, it's not giving proper acknowledgements and citations to anything you've used or referenced.
Some of my proffs even require a works consulted page, sources used even if they didn't directly influence the essay.

Hell, I almost got called on plagiarism because I wrote a paragraph (an ingenious few lines, sheer brilliance, really) and used it in 2 different papers. I was let off the hook because 1) the papers were written at the same time, so one didn't cite the other, it was mutual; 2) I'd written it myself. Although I had a stern talking to about the need for citation even if it was my own work.

When you're in Jr. High or High school, you can't really be punished, other than getting a 0. But once you hit university or the workforce, you can get blacklisted.
I know a guy who was hauled out of class by security and booted out within the week for plagiarism. He can not attend another university in Canada for 10 years. Basically his university career and his plans for the future are over... (ok, it was more serious than not properly citing a source, he actually handed in someone else's paper, but it's a good story for terrifying frosh, makes them think before they do something stupid.)

And there's Ten'ou's lesson in Citation and another of her stories.

[superplough]

I hate to tell you this, hon, but you are plagiarising. What you do on your home computer is your business (to a point). But your teacher can tell you what you can and can not do for your assignment, even if you do that assignment on your computer.

If you use a source and don't cite it... that's plagiarism. If you copy and paste from a source and don't cite it... that's plagiarism. If you paraphrase and don't cite it... that's plagiarism. If you get an idea from a source and don't cite it... yes, you guessed it, that's plagiarism.

Plagiarism isn't just copying someone else's entire work, it's not giving proper acknowledgements and citations to anything you've used or referenced.
Some of my proffs even require a works consulted page, sources used even if they didn't directly influence the essay.

Hell, I almost got called on plagiarism because I wrote a paragraph (an ingenious few lines, sheer brilliance, really) and used it in 2 different papers. I was let off the hook because 1) the papers were written at the same time, so one didn't cite the other, it was mutual; 2) I'd written it myself. Although I had a stern talking to about the need for citation even if it was my own work.

When you're in Jr. High or High school, you can't really be punished, other than getting a 0. But once you hit university or the workforce, you can get blacklisted.
I know a guy who was hauled out of class by security and booted out within the week for plagiarism. He can not attend another university in Canada for 10 years. Basically his university career and his plans for the future are over... (ok, it was more serious than not properly citing a source, he actually handed in someone else's paper, but it's a good story for terrifying frosh, makes them think before they do something stupid.)

And there's Ten'ou's lesson in Citation and another of her stories.

Plagiarism: Serious Business.

[HSaabedra]

I hate to tell you this, hon, but you are plagiarising. What you do on your home computer is your business (to a point). But your teacher can tell you what you can and can not do for your assignment, even if you do that assignment on your computer.

If you use a source and don't cite it... that's plagiarism. If you copy and paste from a source and don't cite it... that's plagiarism. If you paraphrase and don't cite it... that's plagiarism. If you get an idea from a source and don't cite it... yes, you guessed it, that's plagiarism.

Plagiarism isn't just copying someone else's entire work, it's not giving proper acknowledgements and citations to anything you've used or referenced.
Some of my proffs even require a works consulted page, sources used even if they didn't directly influence the essay.

Hell, I almost got called on plagiarism because I wrote a paragraph (an ingenious few lines, sheer brilliance, really) and used it in 2 different papers. I was let off the hook because 1) the papers were written at the same time, so one didn't cite the other, it was mutual; 2) I'd written it myself. Although I had a stern talking to about the need for citation even if it was my own work.

When you're in Jr. High or High school, you can't really be punished, other than getting a 0. But once you hit university or the workforce, you can get blacklisted.
I know a guy who was hauled out of class by security and booted out within the week for plagiarism. He can not attend another university in Canada for 10 years. Basically his university career and his plans for the future are over... (ok, it was more serious than not properly citing a source, he actually handed in someone else's paper, but it's a good story for terrifying frosh, makes them think before they do something stupid.)

And there's Ten'ou's lesson in Citation and another of her stories.

In the world I'm in, sourcing is SERIOUS BUSINESS. Unlike the tech blogs that pass themselves off as real journalists, I'm held to the same standards as a reporter for a major organization, meaning, no/improper sourcing=getting chewed out by my boss and possible suspension/blacklisting.

[MonkeyBoy0314]

Wikipedia is only reliable if you are observant enough to pick out the false articles (which couldn't possibly be more obvious), I see no reason to ban Google though (except maybe for the way they are handling youtube, BLECH!).

[Alice Catherine]

I just list the sources that are cited in Wikipedia. I don't cite Wikipedia itself.

[The Million Dollar Prons]

I just list the sources that are cited in Wikipedia. I don't cite Wikipedia itself.

Yet you site the same sources wiki sites so you may as well site wiki amirit? =3

[Suiko Eiji]

I just list the sources that are cited in Wikipedia. I don't cite Wikipedia itself.

If you're taking Wiki's info and not citing Wiki, welcome to plagiarism.

[Leader Desslock]

^ You beat me to it. ^_^

Of course, the other thing is that by citing Wiki's sources, you're trusting that the author(s) of the Wiki article are correctly understanding and citing the original work. Now, I don't want to bog you down in a whole lot of technical writing mumbo-jumbo, but that's what we like to call "dumb".

[Tenou]

I just list the sources that are cited in Wikipedia. I don't cite Wikipedia itself.

I see someone didn't read my post. I'm feeling just a wee bit neglected and unloved.

[tenshi_a]

I see someone didn't read my post. I'm feeling just a wee bit neglected and unloved.

Woo! I quoted without revealing where from! I just plagiarised Tenou! :P

The internet makes it all so easy!

[Tenou]

Woo! I quoted without revealing where from! I just plagiarised Tenou! :P

The internet makes it all so easy!

Well, at least I'm getting some attention if not recognition. At this point I'll take what ever I can get.

[Panko Z]

so far i've never had a problem with using wiki, even used it for my bio research paper a year ago. of course it's somewhat frowned upon but the teachers don't really mind as long as it's not the primary source and the papers showed some effort of real research. i had other sources but hey i just wanted extra info to puff it up so i could be done with it. it would've been better if encyclopedia sites didn't require registration and fees so i could get the good stuff instead of having to use the google cache to view a full article. why do i have to waste time and gas to get the same text at the library?

[Leader Desslock]

You know, if I was teaching a high school course (perish the thought), I think I'd probably limit the scope of research to:

1) Books and materials found in the school's library
2) Books and materials brought in for pre-approval by me, the teacher.

If you're grading someone on whether they can write a research paper, you're not just interested in whether they come to understand the actual topic they're writing about. You're interested in whether they can: a) find information in a set of materials, b) draw conclusions from a set of available materials, and c) express those conclusions effectively.

I might give two assignments, separated by a bit. The first would be to write assigned research papers using only the approved materials as listed above. The deadlines for the project would include various draft stages, as well as source approvals, etc. The SECOND assignment might be to redo the same paper, this time using ANY sources, so long as they're cited.

I think that might make for an interesting pair of writing assignments.

[Chousho]

Basically, is this a grade on:
A. How well one can write a paper based off other's facts *cough*
B. Actual research done to come to your own conclusion, regardless of other studies, and then writing about what you found
?

This is what I think this whole thing boils down to.

[Alice Catherine]

...you know what?

I say SCREW PROJECTS AND RESEARCH REPORTS.

I think we should all just have tests from now on. ^_^

[Suiko Eiji]

...you know what?

I say SCREW PROJECTS AND RESEARCH REPORTS.

I think we should all just have tests from now on. ^_^

I've been saying the exact opposite for ages. I can write research papers and reports, but I find I learn much, much more by actually sitting down and doing projects and writing the documentation than I do on plain-old-exams.

[The Million Dollar Prons]

Damn it Alice, when I read "SCREW PROJECTS AND RESEARCH REPORTS," I thought for a moment you FOUND YOUR OVARIES (I think they're in your thighs somewhere I really have no idea, I should check wiki) and strated OVERTHROWING THE MAN, it was as if you finally learned something from Grandpa Prons.

But then you said "I think we should all just have tests from now on." Why do you RUIN everything?

[Ariel Tsuki]

I rather have homework to be honest. Exams are just horribly evil. Especially Psychology or Philosophy exams (although the Philosophy exam problem can be solved with two hours of sleep the previous night for me). *shudder*

But I think no one in their right mind like essays or research papers. I abhor them and I'm good at it.

[RyoTD]

I rather have homework to be honest. Exams are just horribly evil. Especially Psychology or Philosophy exams
Funny. Personally, I prefer exams to any kind of thing you have to do at home, and Psyschology and Philosophy are two of my favorite subjects. -_-;

[Haro!]

I prefer papers over tests and tests over homework. To be honest the only reason I pass class is because I get lucky on the exams/papers.

[Hara!]

Google is nice.

As for Wikipedia, there's about 300% more content on Captain America than there is on Theodore Roosevelt.

That's all I have to say to that.

Captain A. > Theo.

Wikipedia is only reliable if you are observant enough to pick out the false articles (which couldn't possibly be more obvious).

TRUTH

[Sendo Takeshi]

Wikipedia is an awesome comic book source. It's great when you're bored at work and you want to catch up on some continuity.

[Alice Catherine]

Damn it Alice, when I read "SCREW PROJECTS AND RESEARCH REPORTS," I thought for a moment you FOUND YOUR OVARIES (I think they're in your thighs somewhere I really have no idea, I should check wiki) and strated OVERTHROWING THE MAN, it was as if you finally learned something from Grandpa Prons.

But then you said "I think we should all just have tests from now on." Why do you RUIN everything?

But Grandpa Prons LOVES tests. Amirite?

Because they always come out negative? :P I kid, I kid.

[Old Ape Face]

i think they should have jeopardy, give us the answers, let us write the questions.

[Tidusauron12]

I remember when Encyclopedias were 5-20 books of varying size, and you had to search by letter, and you're ragging because you can't use google?

Get with the program, this is the 21st Centaur, ain't it? No one's riding on the 20th horse-man anymore.

[Buck]

Google is OK, I'd say the real problem is how you handle search results. Look for "official" websites, authoritative ones...

I agree with your teachers when it comes to wikipedia. Drop it.

[Chousho]

Drop it.
Like it's hot?

[Haro!]

Cho is really cool sometimes. We should call him CHOU LARGE like the Teriyaki Boyz song for a nickname.

Anyway, one of my profs (history) allowed wikipedia, however if it was blatant, gave poor grades. as most everyone in my school is lousy with english and even lousier researching, they all (maybe 80%) used wikipedia and got lousy grades. I got an A+ so you could guess what route i took.

[Chousho]

Cho is really cool sometimes. We should call him CHOU LARGE like the Teriyaki Boyz song for a nickname.
We got big jewels, big cars, big watch with a pair of big stars~
Yeah, guess what CD I had in my walkman, although I was listening to Heartbreaker (I had to get the CD after seeing the video for that one, haha)
Anyway, one of my profs (history) allowed wikipedia, however if it was blatant, gave poor grades. as most everyone in my school is lousy with english and even lousier researching, they all (maybe 80%) used wikipedia and got lousy grades. I got an A+ so you could guess what route i took.
What was the paper on? It seems like it shouldn't be too hard to not use Wiki, unless most of your class was just lazy, haha.

[Polaryzed_123]

The real question is, what makes the material on Wiki any less valid than Joe Schmoe publishing a book about something? You think the editor goes through and validates every last fact and figure? I think not. For the really scientific stuff like in medical journals and such, its a different story. Those are scrutinized by peers to assure validity. However, I still don't think wiki should be used for reference on a paper, though. It does take a little more effort and you have to have some kind of credibility when publishing a book, but remember: its still written by a human.

[tenshi_a]

You know what wikipedia has really destroyed? Random bizarre inventive idiocy among friends. I mean... the kind of random conversations you get where one person says "hey; whatever happened to [random 1980s popular thing]...?" and everyone else makes up stupid answers. Or things like "hey... I wonder... how do snakes reproduce?", where people can have fun thinking of the many possibilities and sharing their thoughts.

Now as soon as one of those conversations comes up, someone runs off to a computer, or gets out their mobile, and looks it up on wikipedia.

That spoils all the fun!

[Solid_Snake]

The real question is, what makes the material on Wiki any less valid than Joe Schmoe publishing a book about something? You think the editor goes through and validates every last fact and figure? I think not. For the really scientific stuff like in medical journals and such, its a different story. Those are scrutinized by peers to assure validity. However, I still don't think wiki should be used for reference on a paper, though. It does take a little more effort and you have to have some kind of credibility when publishing a book, but remember: its still written by a human.

Because publishers usually study the subject before and while writing? As you, obviously don't?

[Haro!]

Now as soon as one of those conversations comes up, someone runs off to a computer, or gets out their mobile, and looks it up on wikipedia.


i envy the UKs better cell networks.

Oh those conversations WERE awesome. Damned wikipedia. And also you can't even trust people to have solved the NY Times Crossword in an honest manner.

[Polaryzed_123]

Because publishers usually study the subject before and while writing? As you, obviously don't?
Publishers publish the book, not write it. An author writes the book and hopefully studies the subject whilst writing. But that's not always the case.
If publishers validated an author's material, then OJ's book "If I Did It...", wouldn't have gotten as far as it did (not to the shelves, but darn close). Publishers are human like the rest of us. To say that a publisher is an expert on every book someone ELSE writes that their company puts on the shelf I believe is an incorrect statement. How many books are published a year? And then after its published, now it can be used as a quotable source. Whether its credible or not is a different matter, but in the eyes of a teacher, its still a book and NOT wiki, so therefore carries more validity, even if that's false.

Look, I'm not saying that half of the books on the shelf that would be used for source material is invalid. My point is that just because a writing is published in a book doesn't make it right. How many credible books have proven to be false? How many scientific journals and theories that have been published have been proven wrong?(the world IS flat you know)

[Tenou]

The real question is, what makes the material on Wiki any less valid than Joe Schmoe publishing a book about something? You think the editor goes through and validates every last fact and figure? I think not. For the really scientific stuff like in medical journals and such, its a different story. Those are scrutinized by peers to assure validity. However, I still don't think wiki should be used for reference on a paper, though. It does take a little more effort and you have to have some kind of credibility when publishing a book, but remember: its still written by a human.

It's not exactly easy for Joe Schmoe to get published. Also, when you're researching, look for publishers who publish academic works. You're not looking for Bantam, you're looking for Norton (I swear, my school must have signed a deal with them because there are very few required texts in the English department which aren't Norton).
To make it easier, academic journals (and excellent and easy resource) have a couple fail safes. Number 1, they only accept from the academia; two, they are very conscious of their reputation, so they are unlikely to publish anything that would make them look like idiots; three, many are peer reviewed (other authorities within the field have reviewed it), so to save some time, find the reviews of an article, and there are the criticism.

And as of tomorrow, I am finished my university career. Well, I'll probably be going back after taking a year off - but that means I don't have to worry about research, papers, exams, my grammers and spellings.

[HSaabedra]

i envy the UKs better cell networks.

1. Data is still charged per kb on UK mobile networks, with flat-rate handset access the same price as a fixed line connection here.

2. 3G UMTS access has been available in the US since 2003. with HSDPA access already available in most major markets

3. Phones here are already catching up to European models, but the best way to get exclusive UK network handsets is buying online.

4. We don't have to deal with massive taxation and per minute surcharges like the rest of the world

[Hara!]

In defense of wiki, I would like to call to mention these articles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_articles).

They represent the best of wiki because they are well referenced, and make for very reliable articles.

Things that people are supremely obsessed over (Star Trek, Star Wars, real wars, Buffy, Doctor Who) tend to have great articles.

Famous brand names like Naruto and Final Fantasy tend to be vandalized by people a lot, but quickly reverted.

Stuff with small cult followings (Jojo´s Bizarre Adventure, Kinnikuman, Donpachi, Tohou) tend to have a lot of disconjoined, but semi-reliable articles.

It all depends on the subject, and how you assess quality.

LOL, I ended the thread pages ago.

[HSaabedra]

I'm in ur post, typin lolz

Fixed for no reason. :P