Martial Arts?

[Techrobo]

Hey guys just started posting here again. I'll try to pop back in from time to time. I was wondering if anyone else here has any experience in various martial arts? I figure some one will, considering fans uniting interest in Asian culture. Just a general discussion thread, start by listing which specific martial arts you have experience in. As for me:

TaeKwon-Do (ITF)
Aikido
Seikido (WS)
Systema
Historic Swordfighting (Sabre, longsword)

[GreatNekoKoneko]

...BWAHAHAHA. im sorry. couldn't help it.

i'll leave this Reidar to answer. he's just about to open a can of a whoop-arse on this thread.

[kenshinbebop]

I've had minor instruction in Karate, Wu-Shu, and Kendo.

[Haro!]

I want no nor have any kind of experience in the marital arts. Seriously though, I have some experience in martial arts well just, jujitsu. But I forgot most of it and never used it anyway as usually I'd just get someone else to fight for me. The thought of someone else's blood on my hands disgusts me.

[Crusader986]

I used to study Tae Kwan Doe for a couple of years when I was a kid. I got up to an orange belt before I quit.

[Caster13]

no matter how good you are with hand to hand, no kick can stop a bullet. which is one reason why the japanese lost WW2. one guy with a sword cant stop a machine gun. even though there was one recorded case of a sword cutting through a machine gun barrel, but that was probably only because of a metal defect.

[Reidar]

I figure some one will, considering fans uniting interest in Asian culture. Just a general discussion thread...

If it's a "general discussion thread", why open up with a theme of "Asian culture"? If we do Brazilian jiu-jitsu, should we still contribute, even though it's not Asian? I do have interest in the martial arts of Asia, just not in their culture; do I still belong here?

You did ask for discussion, so that's what I chose to bring up. As for myself, I do Brazilian jiu-jitsu, muay thai, and boxing.

I'm grateful for muay thai so that I can post in this very Asian topic. I want to live in a temple with Chinese (or any ethnicity, really, as long as they're Asian) monks so that I can be accepted into the Asian club at my prodigious school. I'm currently training to catch flies in midair with chopsticks when I'm taking a break from getting perfect scores in math.

no matter how good you are with hand to hand, no kick can stop a bullet. which is one reason why the japanese lost WW2. one guy with a sword cant stop a machine gun. even though there was one recorded case of a sword cutting through a machine gun barrel, but that was probably only because of a metal defect.

I had no idea that kicking was ineffective against bullets. Thanks for clearing that up. I always thought that I'd turn into Super Saiyan Neo upon wielding a katana (as long as it's an Asian sword).

[Holy Knight]

I have done five years of Karate (streetfighter style), two years of Judo and I'm now doing my third year of Choy Lee Fu Kung-Fu.

I've been thinking of going into something else once this year in Kung-Fu ends, since I'm not sure it's for me. I might try out either Ju-Jutsu, Tae Kwon Do or Muay Thai. I prefer more energetic and fighting oriented martial arts, which the Kung-Fu has so far not delivered.

[Raziel_MGS]

i did karate when i was younger but stopped for some reason...

my friend does capoera and loves it

[rayndeon]

I had no idea that kicking was ineffective against bullets. Thanks for clearing that up. I always thought that I'd turn into Super Saiyan Neo upon wielding a katana (as long as it's an Asian sword).

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I've personally taken:

Shotokan Karate (active)
Tae Kwon Do (active)
Hapkido (active)
Fencing (active)
Kendo (on brief hiatus)
Judo (inactive)
Aikido (inactive)

I'm thinking about Muay Thai or Boxing. Got to work the upper body.

[Suiko Eiji]

If it's a "general discussion thread", why open up with a theme of "Asian culture"? If we do Brazilian jiu-jitsu, should we still contribute, even though it's not Asian? I do have interest in the martial arts of Asia, just not in their culture; do I still belong here?

Considering Brazilian Jiu-jitsu has roots back to Japanese jujutsu, makes sense to me.

You did ask for discussion, so that's what I chose to bring up. As for myself, I do Brazilian jiu-jitsu, muay thai, and boxing.

I'm grateful for muay thai so that I can post in this very Asian topic. I want to live in a temple with Chinese (or any ethnicity, really, as long as they're Asian) monks so that I can be accepted into the Asian club at my prodigious school. I'm currently training to catch flies in midair with chopsticks when I'm taking a break from getting perfect scores in math.



I had no idea that kicking was ineffective against bullets. Thanks for clearing that up. I always thought that I'd turn into Super Saiyan Neo upon wielding a katana (as long as it's an Asian sword).

:lol:

As for me, let's just call it Japanese jujutsu. Once I'm finished with school and settle into an "occupation only" lifestyle, I plan on starting back seriously into my jujutsu and starting up Judo and Kendo.

[Bernard_Monsha]

10 years of Kendo
20 years of fencing
9 years of Krav Maga

[CrossboneGundam]

no matter how good you are with hand to hand, no kick can stop a bullet. which is one reason why the japanese lost WW2. one guy with a sword cant stop a machine gun. even though there was one recorded case of a sword cutting through a machine gun barrel, but that was probably only because of a metal defect.

They sure must have had a lot of flying swords to take out all those battleships and sailors at Pearl Harbor, golly.

We gots a real winner, here.

[Spadesy]

Some jukite jujitsu and boxing back in high school, sparred frequently with friends with similar interests. These days we just sometimes practice MCMA, usually for morning exercise.

9 years of Krav Maga

Is that the Israeli martial art, or am I thinking of something else? I heard it's pretty good stuff.

[rayndeon]

Yeah, it's Israel Security Forces stuff. Supposed to be Hebrew for contact combat or something close to that.

[Reidar]

Considering Brazilian Jiu-jitsu has roots back to Japanese jujutsu, makes sense to me.

Borrowing techniques from Japanese methods doesn't make it Japanese. Every art shares techniques with others; that doesn't diminish the differentiation between anything.

[The Million Dollar Prons]

no matter how good you are with hand to hand, no kick can stop a bullet. which is one reason why the japanese lost WW2. one guy with a sword cant stop a machine gun. even though there was one recorded case of a sword cutting through a machine gun barrel, but that was probably only because of a metal defect.

Call me nuts, but I didn't think Japan used sword fighters in WWII. I also didn't know this was a thread about WWII.

This was all I could find about Japanese using swords in WWII. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contest_to_Kill_First_100_Chinese_with_S word)

On topic: I Box, am I doing it right?

Btw Reidar I thought you were ABOVE being Invisible? Be a man, being invisible is only cool in real life.

[rayndeon]

Call me nuts, but I didn't think Japan used sword fighters in WWII. I also didn't know this was a thread about WWII.

Officers carried mass produced versions.

[Reidar]

Btw Reidar I thought you were ABOVE being Invisible? Be a man, being invisible is only cool in real life.

I selected that because it makes the circle next to my name red instead of green. I don't privately message or talk to anybody, so there's no point in going beyond that.

[The Million Dollar Prons]

I selected that because it makes the circle next to my name red instead of green. I don't privately message or talk to anybody, so there's no point in going beyond that.

On mine it makes the circle next to your name blue. Doing it wrong!

[Bernard_Monsha]

Is that the Israeli martial art, or am I thinking of something else? I heard it's pretty good stuff.


Yes it is. It has come in handy both in and out of the service.

[trunkschan90]

I have some experience in Judo, I took it one quarter in the University ^^ I still have my uniform.

[Spadesy]

^ Keep taking it you tool! MA regardless of style is one of the most interesting and fun past times you can be involved in.

[Techrobo]

10 years of Kendo
20 years of fencing
9 years of Krav Maga

My Systema instructor suggested Krav Maga to me. I've read a bit about it and I know its more military oriented. Do you think its worth it for someone who already has training in Systema and basic military training? Don't know where I'll find an instructor in Canada in any case, but its worth a shot.

[Spadesy]

We had a corporal that frequently practiced Krav Maga, and routinely owned everybody at morning exercise. He couldn't run worth poo but nobody would want to meet him in a dark alley.

[Techrobo]

We had a corporal that frequently practiced Krav Maga, and routinely owned everybody at morning exercise. He couldn't run worth poo but nobody would want to meet him in a dark alley.
Yeah, thats what happened for me with Systema, except that I'm just a reservist so everyone else has even less of a clue. Much the same I'm not the strongest or the fastest, but in the close combat exercises its a different story. Its sad that I had to take a foreign combat training system to get that way though. What force are you serving with?

[Spadesy]

USMC. My home unit is HQ Bn, 3rd Div in Okinawa but I'm augmenting 1/12 in Hawaii for when we go to Al Anbar in March.

[Rurouni Saiyan]

I'm currently studying a mixed-martial art system that's rooted in Tae Kwon Do. Though we primarily call ourselves Tae Kwon Do, we incorporate the following styles:

Jiu-jitsu
Karate
Kung-Fu
Kali
Silat
Muay Thai
Aikido
Hapkido
Boxing

[Reidar]

Karate and kung-fu aren't styles.

[Sora N]

The only Martial Arts experience I have is Karate (5 years) ^_^

[SakuraDreamer]

no matter how good you are with hand to hand, no kick can stop a bullet. which is one reason why the japanese lost WW2. one guy with a sword cant stop a machine gun. even though there was one recorded case of a sword cutting through a machine gun barrel, but that was probably only because of a metal defect.


I think he has WW2 confused with the Seinan Rebellion of 1877.

馬鹿

[Rurouni Saiyan]

Karate and kung-fu aren't styles.

Care to explain?

[Reidar]

They aren't styles. They're umbrella terms. Karate pertains to Japanese arts and kung-fu is to Chinese arts.

[Rurouni Saiyan]

They aren't styles. They're umbrella terms. Karate pertains to Japanese arts and kung-fu is to Chinese arts.

Ah, now I see. I stand corrected.

My bad^_^

[Suiko Eiji]

^Just out of curiosity, what style of karate did you do?

[Makunouchi]

I took some Aikido for awhile, that wasn't my style at all. Right now I'm looking into more pure grappling arts like Judo, Brazillian Jiu Jitsu, or submission wrestling. Each style has something that interests me more than the other, and hopefully I'll make a decision once I have the money. =/

I'm not the strongest guy around, so striking arts really don't appeal to me but I'd still like to take some regardless, with Muay Thai and Boxing being at the top of the list.

[ANIMEJUNKY]

ITF_certificats, well 3 to be exact are right above my room. 3rd degree.
Jeet-kundo.
Capoura-let me just say holy crap is it fun, but definetly the most exuasting one out there.
Karate.
Kick boxing.
Submission training.
Heres has been my place of training for 8 years now.

http://middletownmartialarts.net/ REPRESENT!

[ANIMEJUNKY]

Care to explain?

Technically any martial arts isnt a style, it is a teaching based on certain events of the origins. Such styles do not exist, they are technique. Fundamentally of what creator or school, dojo if you will, decided was realistically, and logically more important to be victorious or just a better person in life. Thus as the slaves from the 1500s did developing the *dance* so their masters would not see them practicing martial arts, thus making a whole new technique and way to practice what their owners saw unfit and wrong for slaves. Some make you use concentrated ammounts of force using all energy to make fights short and quick, while others use fast moves to aggitate, while some use dodges and blocks to save the energy to slowly widdle away. You raise a good question, but the term style, can be brought up if individuals take the technique and make it their own, with certain variatons to give them an ace to their *style* of the technique. As I say sometimes their is truth in your fiction and some fiction in your truth. As I do in teakwondo I stole Bruce Lee's stance, with both legs slightly shifting back and forth like a pendulum, as a distraction due to my legs always moving, thus making it my ace at times, and my first go to style. Sorry to double post couldnt help but go back and read the other posts.

[Reidar]

Jeet Kune Do is not a style. It's a philosophy.

Bruce Lee used a fencing stance. Why you would adopt movie fighting for practical martial arts is beyond me. Shifting bodyweight via your legs is a standard of all styles, not of anything that Bruce Lee invented.

[ANIMEJUNKY]

I never said he did, nor did I ever say it wasn't a phylosophy, but everything I use was inspired by him and my instructor it was more of a simple reason to the question you present. WHYDO I? That is the main reason, I use it, to be different, but most of all, slightly flashy, just enough to make it distract my other class mates in sparring. Thus is the same reason as to why I question some students use loud kiyas* think I;m spelling that right*, now of course to an average person they might be distracted, but I can ask the same question as you, why? Simple to disorient or distract the opponent, but then I realize that I am used to it. So it can be relative in some aspects.

You are very right in the fact that what he does is an almost identical stance of Spanish fencing. Thanks so much for the good counter points that I have had to really think about as what to say in a response.

[Reidar]

You grouped Jeet Kune Do with martial combat.

You also said that you stole his stance for use in your class, which is why I'm wondering why you would adopt a mock-fencing stance used in movies for Tae Kwon Do.

[Animematt55]

i have been curious about Aikido for a while. We have a place here, but i am told the only thing you do for the first year is learn how to take falls....which bores me. I learned to take falls in Tae Kwon Do, and when i did wrestling stuff...
Shi Quan (sp?) kinda interests me too...light quick jabs that can do a lot of damage? I might be mistaken though....

[Rurouni Saiyan]

^Just out of curiosity, what style of karate did you do?

If by what schools of karate we incorporated into our Fighting Art, we use Shotokan and Yoshukai karate principles and techniques.

Our school is pretty much an amalgam of different martial arts, but is rooted in Tae Kwon Do.

[Reidar]

Shi Quan (sp?) kinda interests me too...light quick jabs that can do a lot of damage? I might be mistaken though....

No jab does a lot of damage.

Qi Shi Quan kung-fu is based on straight line practice of single movements, so you're correct in implying strong, isolated shots.

[ablo]

While Kung Fu is an umbrella term, Karate is not. Karate is a specific style originating in Okinawa with several "sub-styles" if you will, including Shotokan and Kyokushin.

This wikipedia article has a pretty good list of Chinese martial arts. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_martial_arts)

[Reidar]

That is incorrect. The original style that you made reference to was simply called Te in Okinawa, and was far from a developed system of any form of karate. The next immediate refinement to this came in three forms: Shuri-te, Naha-te and Tomari-te. As one can see, even with the development of these discernments, the term "karate" was not used in any specificity. It was never an unambiguous style.

[ANIMEJUNKY]

To reply to your previous posts, I have purely only studied anything but ITF, but only 1 month or so to see and understand what other forms of martial arts were. Teakwondo is the only thing I have focused on, going on 9 years now. Also onto the next several posts of yours, all I can say is that I use it for pure fun. Of course irrational as it may seem, I saw all the of Bruce's movies when I jsut started when I was 9. I had no idea what he was doing, but sitting around fat as hell, it inspired me to such a degree that I always used it. This is not sarcasm, thank you for WTF powning me. Its good to see that it is not a lost cuase to know the history of martial arts and not jsut do them. Thanks.

[Suiko Eiji]

That is incorrect. The original style that you made reference to was simply called Te in Okinawa, and was far from a developed system of any form of karate. The next immediate refinement to this came in three forms: Shuri-te, Naha-te and Tomari-te. As one can see, even with the development of these discernments, the term "karate" was not used in any specificity. It was never an unambiguous style.

Where does the usage of 'karate' 『唐手』, meaning 'Tang Hand', originate? Does it predate the regionalizations of Shuri-, Naha-, and Tomari-te. Most of the history I've read that predates the Taisho period (1912-1926) is confusing because there is lack of distinction between Okinawa being under Tang and Satsuma influences (and finally the Japanese annexation). Perhaps you've read something I haven't or could explain it better than what I've read.

[ablo]

Karate article on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate).

Karate is certainly not an umbrella term. Have you ever heard Karate used as a term for Kendo, Judo, or Aikido? No. Karate is specifically a striking Martial Art that wasn't even brought to Japan until the late 19th to early 20th century developed out of Okinawa.

[Makunouchi]

Because Wikipedia is the end-all be-all of information. :lol:

I'm not sure if you'll ever find a school that teaches plain old "Karate", and if they do (especially in the USA) they're probably just leaving out the actual style that precedes the word Karate in the title.

[ablo]

Of course it's not, but it's the best example that I can give on the internet. Go to any self proclaimed karate dojo, in the United States or in Japan. They teach a specific martial art called Karate which is characterized by strikes, with a small amount of throws and grappling. Judo is different. Aikido is different.

They are characterized by different movements and approaches to sparring and fighting in general. Even if Karate didn't originate in Okinawa, it still has a seperate origin from other Martial arts. It most certainly is not an umbrella term.

[Reidar]

Where does the usage of 'karate' 『唐手』, meaning 'Tang Hand', originate? Does it predate the regionalizations of Shuri-, Naha-, and Tomari-te. Most of the history I've read that predates the Taisho period (1912-1926) is confusing because there is lack of distinction between Okinawa being under Tang and Satsuma influences (and finally the Japanese annexation). Perhaps you've read something I haven't or could explain it better than what I've read.

There's no distinctive date. The collective term for the aforementioned arts was called "Tode". The character for "To" was synonymous with "Kara", and this eventually was adopted by Funakoshi as "Karate-Do" sometime around the turn of the twentieth century. It was much a gradual adaptation, rather than a formal, recorded incident. The phrase "Karate", however, definitely did not precede Shuri, Naha, and Tomari.

Karate article on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate).

Karate is certainly not an umbrella term. Have you ever heard Karate used as a term for Kendo, Judo, or Aikido? No.

Your own source of Wikipedia (and a poor one, at that) contradicts you in the first paragraph with, "'Karate' is the term used by some schools that actually teach Tae Kwon Do."

Karate is specifically a striking Martial Art that wasn't even brought to Japan until the late 19th to early 20th century developed out of Okinawa.

There is no specificity whatsoever here. I've already posted information on the arts that predated the very concept of "Karate". It was never a singular, specific art in any perception whatsoever. You have yet to offer any rebuttal against karate being used to group the three styles of Okinawa, and later acting as the parent term for Shotokan, Kyokushin, Shito Ryu, Goju Ryu, and others.

Of course it's not, but it's the best example that I can give on the internet.

If you believe that a user-edited, mainstream interface is the best example that you can give on the internet, your misconceptions at least become apparent.

Find sources that aren't customizable. An acquaintance of mine had to rewrite the entire article on djembe drums because of the inaccuracies on Wikipedia.

Karate is, and always was, an umbrella term.

[Makunouchi]

Of course it's not, but it's the best example that I can give on the internet. Go to any self proclaimed karate dojo, in the United States or in Japan. They teach a specific martial art called Karate which is characterized by strikes, with a small amount of throws and grappling. Judo is different. Aikido is different.

They are characterized by different movements and approaches to sparring and fighting in general. Even if Karate didn't originate in Okinawa, it still has a seperate origin from other Martial arts. It most certainly is not an umbrella term.

A self-proclaimed karate dojo, one worth a damn, will teach a specific style like many that have been mentioned by Reidar. Striking is very broad in itself, and like you said, emphasis on what kind of strikes, training methods, and philosophy all differ from one style to another, hence it being easy to group them all into the word "Karate."

Of course it has a seperate origin from other martial arts. I don't think anyone is saying it's related to Sambo, BJJ, or TKD...

Karate is certainly not an umbrella term. Have you ever heard Karate used as a term for Kendo, Judo, or Aikido?

Just being nitpicky here, since Karate translates to "empty hand" it'd be impossible to group Kendo with it because in Kendo your hand isn't empty.

[Reidar]

He's assuming that I mean that Karate is the name of every single martial art that hails from Japan, when I simply said that it "pertains to Japanese arts". It's an umbrella term for Japanese arts like Shotokan and Kyokushin, and it always has been.

Why he chooses to think that and bring in irrelevant styles, like Aikido and Judo, is beyond me.

[Makunouchi]

He also realizes that each style of Karate differentiates itself from the other in a variety of ways, yet still tries to argue it's not an umbrella term...

[Suiko Eiji]

There's no distinctive date. The collective term for the aforementioned arts was called "Tode". The character for "To" was synonymous with "Kara", and this eventually was adopted by Funakoshi as "Karate-Do" sometime around the turn of the twentieth century. It was much a gradual adaptation, rather than a formal, recorded incident. The phrase "Karate", however, definitely did not precede Shuri, Naha, and Tomari.

Okay, I think I understand now... I've done some additional reading on the Prefectural site, which I think organizes things better.

Uchina Ti --> Ryukyuu Kingdom becomes subordinate to the Chinese Empire --> Shuri-te/Naha-te/Tomari-te 『首里手/ 那覇手/ 泊手』 --> Satsuma Invasion --> Meiji Restoration --> Toude (Karate) 『唐手』 --> War in China --> Karate(do) 『空手(道)』 --> Present.

[ablo]

Why he chooses to think that and bring in irrelevant styles, like Aikido and Judo, is beyond me.

You said Karate is an umbrella term pertaining to Japanese martial arts. Aikido is a Japanese martial art, so by your logic it would be Karate, which is absurd.

Karate is a style with Shotokan, Kyokushin etc. being variations with although different techniques, has the same emphasis of striking with the hand (which is pretty much what karate is), and leg, unlike other Okinawan-Japanese martial arts.

Perhaps there has also been a misunderstanding?

[Reidar]

You said Karate is an umbrella term pertaining to Japanese martial arts. Aikido is a Japanese martial art, so by your logic it would be Karate, which is absurd.


That's a fallacy of the undistributed middle. The fact that "Karate" applies to the select Japanese arts that I was speaking of, but zero foreign arts, renders my statement legitimate, and your assumption unfounded.

I did not say "every" Japanese martial art, nor did I need to, since the context would not be implying that. It was made more than obvious that I was speaking of relevant Japanese arts, because relevancy is what people use to communicate in the first place. A defining statement like "every Japanese martial art" would certainly merit note, if the topic called for that, since all-inclusive terms like "every" and "always" command that much. In here, it did not, and since a remark of that length and magnitude, so demanding of at least some sort of mention, was not mentioned, it is fallacious to assume it. The extent of to what degree my statement branched out to was completely irrelevant in what I was responding to, and there was zero logical obligaton to specify the quantity of "Karate"; the distinction of my assertion in defining "Karate" and "Kung-fu" lay in the respective regional divisions of Japan and China.

Your presumption is your fault. Take responsibility for it.

Karate is a style with Shotokan, Kyokushin etc. being variations with although different techniques, has the same emphasis of striking with the hand (which is pretty much what karate is), and leg, unlike other Okinawan-Japanese martial arts.

Karate is not a style because there is no singular, specific system of combat attached to it. Shotokan and Kyokushin are the styles under Karate. And for the record, every non-weapon based martial art has "striking with the hand".

You have once again chosen not to refute my point of Karate never having specificity at any point in its origin, since it started as an umbrella term for the aforementioned Okinawan styles. That is a blatant contradiction to your version of history. Address it.

[Zachery]

I took some form of Karate way back in Elementary school, but now I've moved on to just collecting Katanas and watching samuri anime series. (which is obviously MUCH less dangerous and requires MUCH less work) ^_^

[ablo]

That's a fallacy of the undistributed middle. The fact that "Karate" applies to the select Japanese arts that I was speaking of, but zero foreign arts, renders my statement legitimate, and your assumption unfounded.

I did not say "every" Japanese martial art, nor did I need to, since the context would not be implying that. It was made more than obvious that I was speaking of relevant Japanese arts, because relevancy is what people use to communicate in the first place.
Your presumption is your fault. Take responsibility for it.



I was under the impression that you meant Karate as a general term for Japanese martial arts. I misunderstood your point. My assumption was relevant however considering this is a general martial arts topic with no specifications regarding what Japanese styles. It's not as if I was talking about something completely random, I was talking about Martial Arts which is in fact relevant, more specifically Japanese martial arts where I was under the impression that you said Karate as an umbrella term for martial arts from Japan.

Karate is not a style because there is no singular, specific system of combat attached to it. Shotokan and Kyokushin are the styles under Karate. And for the record, every non-weapon based martial art has "striking with the hand".

I used hand as an example, and yes, karate does have an emphasis on striking above other aspects of fighting that other martial arts don't. Karate is in fact a "style".

[Reidar]

I was under the impression that you meant Karate as a general term for Japanese martial arts.

I did. You were under the fallacious impression that I spoke of it as a general term for all Japanese martial arts. You conveniently neglected to include that defining word in the above retrospect.

I misunderstood your point. My assumption was relevant however considering this is a general martial arts topic with no specifications regarding what Japanese styles.

I specified by omitting all-inclusionary terms. You fallaciously assumed by presuming them.

It's not as if I was talking about something completely random, I was talking about Martial Arts which is in fact relevant, more specifically Japanese martial arts where I was under the impression that you said Karate as an umbrella term for martial arts from Japan.

It is. Shotokan and Kyokushin are martial arts from Japan. Therefore, Karate is an umbrella term for Japanese martial arts.

I used hand as an example, and yes, karate does have an emphasis on striking above other aspects of fighting that other martial arts don't. Karate is in fact a "style".

Karate is not a style because there is no singular, specific system of combat attached to it. If there is, post evidence contradicting the history I've given of the three systems preceding the concept of Karate, which invalidate the premise of specifity that you set forth in post #45. This is the fourth instance that you haven't offered a rebuttal to that.

[ablo]

I specified by omitting all-inclusionary terms. You fallaciously assumed by presuming them.


No. How does one specify by being totally and completely ambiguous?

You said Karate is an umbrella term for Japanese martial arts. Aikido=Japanese martial arts. From the completely general ambiguous definition you gave, one could in fact safely assume that you thought Karate would be a term for Aikido, which of course it isn't.

You yourself are assuming that because you you omitted all-inclusionary terms, one would automatically know what you were specifically talking about. What you gave was something comepletely general and unelaborated, someone goes and takes what is only given, and assumes something you didn't mean. You then go back in retrosepct and say "oh, you're wrong and at fault for incorrectly interpreting what I said." People aren't mind readers.

As for whether or not Karate itself is a style, I don't really care. "Style" is a very subjective thing with multiple definitions. I see style as a more general term then perhaps you do. Shotokan and kyokushin are inherently related, you can't deny that. They are both within the "style" of Karate.

[Reidar]

No. How does one specify by being totally and completely ambiguous?

Omission of noteworthy concepts that may be in mind is what specifies the very neglection; I was specific through avoiding that notable convolution. My statement was a direct assertion that included all necessary components of the appropriate situation, with that context being one of no misconception on the quantity of Japanese styles. This is because that quantity was not the issue at any moment preceding your entrance.

You said Karate is an umbrella term for Japanese martial arts. Aikido=Japanese martial arts. From the completely general ambiguous definition you gave, one could in fact safely assume that you thought Karate would be a term for Aikido, which of course it isn't.

Incorrect. Aikido = Japanese martial art (singular). Japanese martial art =/= Aikido. You are demonstrating a logical fallacy. See below for the demonstration of this.

You yourself are assuming that because you you omitted all-inclusionary terms, one would automatically know what you were specifically talking about. What you gave was something comepletely general and unelaborated, someone goes and takes what is only given, and assumes something you didn't mean. You then go back in retrosepct and say "oh, you're wrong and at fault for incorrectly interpreting what I said." People aren't mind readers.

There's a difference between vague assertions and specific, inconstrued ones.

A formula for the fallacy of undistributed middle is thus:

1. All As are Bs
2. C is a B
3. Therefore, C is an A

With the phrase in question, "Karate pertains to Japanese arts...":

A = Karate
B = Japanese arts
C = All Japanese arts

The equivalent structure with our terms substituted in for the variables are:

1. All Karate are Japanese arts (this is my statement, and this is correct)
2. All Japanese arts are Japanese arts (obvious)
3. Therefore, all Japanese arts are Karate (incorrect -- your assumption)

As #3 is your accusation on #1, my valid and correct statement that I've proven does not lead to the implication that you're claiming, your assumption is unfounded and fallacious.

As for whether or not Karate itself is a style, I don't really care. "Style" is a very subjective thing with multiple definitions. I see style as a more general term then perhaps you do. Shotokan and kyokushin are inherently related, you can't deny that. They are both within the "style" of Karate.

A martial art style is a very definitive term, embedded in common martial art jargon. A style is a system of combat. Karate is not a system; it is a word for a series of systems. That is called an "umbrella term".

Also, your claim of Karate being specific in origin remains contradicted. Address that, for the fifth time.

[ablo]

Omission of noteworthy concepts that may be in mind is what specifies the very neglection;

Contradictory statement. Tell me what you mean by being specific through omission. All you've been doing is simply repeating that using different words without explaining. All fluff with no substance.

As for your cute little chart, I fail to see its relevence, as I never once expressed as my opinion that Karate equals all Japanese martial arts.



A martial art style is a very definitive term, embedded in common martial art jargon. A style is a system of combat. Karate is not a system; it is a word for a series of systems. That is called an "umbrella term".

I think a style is a flexible enough term so that it can be used as both. Is there some official league somewhere that sets these things in stone? No. My martial arts instructors frequently referred to it as a style, as do most people and a lot of martial artists do in conversation. Honestly it doesn't interest me that much. I find it arbitrary.

Also, your claim of Karate being specific in origin remains contradicted. Address that, for the fifth time.

Karate as we know it originated in Okinawa to Japan. What else do you want me to say?

[Reidar]

Contradictory statement. Tell me what you mean by being specific through omission. All you've been doing is simply repeating that using different words without explaining. All fluff with no substance.

...if you don't even know what I mean, by your own admission, how do you know that it's contradictory?

Anyways, I explained the omission with, "Omission of noteworthy concepts...", which ties back to "omitting all-inclusionary terms" in post #61 (it should be standard procedure to have the insight of linking those two). Obviously, those "all-inclusionary terms" are the ones that we've been talking about for the past dozen posts, made clearly evident in post #58 with, "...all-inclusive terms like 'every' and 'always...'. It doesn't get anymore specific than that.

As for your cute little chart, I fail to see its relevence, as I never once expressed as my opinion that Karate equals all Japanese martial arts.

You miss the point of it. The chart demonstrated the fallacy of assuming that intention on my statement, not of having that opinon for yourself.

I think a style is a flexible enough term so that it can be used as both. Is there some official league somewhere that sets these things in stone? No. My martial arts instructors frequently referred to it as a style, as do most people and a lot of martial artists do in conversation. Honestly it doesn't interest me that much. I find it arbitrary.

It's ridiculous how you say this when your disagreement of my application with "umbrella term" is what initiated the argument in the first place. I'll go by your logic: is there some official league somewhere that sets these things in stone?

You even used the word "style" to set up your thesis, with, "Karate is a specific style...". By claiming you don't care about that, you're essentially saying that everything you've said standing on these structural points doesn't hold any merit, and you take it all back.

Once again, "style" is common martial art jargon. It has correct and incorrect usage when speaking in that context.

Karate as we know it originated in Okinawa to Japan. What else do you want me to say?

Karate as a "specific style originating in Okinawa", as you put it (post #45), is incorrect. It was never a specific style, and I've explained why in multiple posts. Address that.

[Spadesy]

Reidar's pretty much on point. There are a basic number, for example, of techniques that are present in many specific styles of karate (and even beyond that). But karate can't be considered a specific style because it's too broad of a term.

There are a lot of places out in town that "teach people karate," and that's fine enough. Specifics are nice, but not always necessary (on the other hand, some of these places say they teach karate when they actually teach taekwondo but that's a different point).

[ablo]

if you don't even know what I mean, by your own admission, how do you know that it's contradictory?


You missed my point. When I said I don't know what you mean, I meant I don't see how omitting noteworthy concepts is being more specific. That's what I don't get when I say "I don't know what you mean". I don't know what iyou mean because it seems contradictory.

You miss the point of it. The chart demonstrated the fallacy of assuming that intention on my statement, not of having that opinon for yourself.

(incorrect -- your assumption)


In it you mentioned that this was my assumption, which is incorrect as I never assumed that all Japanese arts are Karate. If you honestly had the intention of it being only an example, then why did you say that the above statement would be my assumption?

I'll go by your logic: is there some official league somewhere that sets these things in stone?

No, and that's why we're arguing about it.

You even used the word "style" to set up your thesis, with, "Karate is a specific style...". By claiming you don't care about that, you're essentially saying that everything you've said standing on these structural points doesn't hold any merit, and you take it all back.

Is it not possible for one to argue a point that he finds arbitrary, and still have convictions on that point regardless? I think so, it happens a lot on politics.:P

For example I don't find much interest in the science of economics, but when the subject arises, I can still talk about it from a perspective, namely mine. Not everything is so robotic and clear cut.

Once again, "style" is common martial art jargon. It has correct and incorrect usage when speaking in that context.

Addressed that already.




Karate as a "specific style originating in Okinawa", as you put it (post #45), is incorrect. It was never a specific style, and I've explained why in multiple posts. Address that.

That's what I've been addressing the past dozen or so posts, by trying to define style.

[Reidar]

You missed my point. When I said I don't know what you mean, I meant I don't see how omitting noteworthy concepts is being more specific. That's what I don't get when I say "I don't know what you mean". I don't know what iyou mean because it seems contradictory.

If you "don't see how omitting noteworthy concepts is being more specific", why did you omit to note that you don't know what you mean because of your listed reason?

In it you mentioned that this was my assumption, which is incorrect as I never assumed that all Japanese arts are Karate.

I never said you did. I said that you accused that on me. Once again, you assumed that intention on my statement, not of having that opinon for yourself.

If you honestly had the intention of it being only an example, then why did you say that the above statement would be my assumption?

It was exemplifying your statement to prove the fallacy.

No, and that's why we're arguing about it.

Then it's hypocritical of you to do so, since your previous point was that it's not "set in stone".

Is it not possible for one to argue a point that he finds arbitrary, and still have convictions on that point regardless? I think so, it happens a lot on politics.:P

It is, but it's hypocritical. Politicians aren't exactly viewed as the most sincere of people because of it.

For example I don't find much interest in the science of economics, but when the subject arises, I can still talk about it from a perspective, namely mine. Not everything is so robotic and clear cut.

If you had started a debate standing on a thesis about economics, and then later said, "I don't care", you could not legitimately continue that same argument by negating your point.

Addressed that already.

Your rebuttal was essentially, "I think it's not specific." That is not addressing the point.

That's what I've been addressing the past dozen or so posts, by trying to define style.

I'm asking you, for the sixth time, to make reference to the specificity in the origins of the style that you spoke of, not to define the style. I provided history for Karate that contradicted your claim of it. You have not addressed that.

[ablo]

If you "don't see how omitting noteworthy concepts is being more specific", why did you omit to note that you don't know what you mean because of your listed reason?


I never said I don't know what I mean. I know what I mean. I don't know what you mean because it's contradictory.

I never said you did. I said that you accused that on me. Once again, you assumed that intention on my statement, not of having that opinon for yourself.


I know I didn't have that opinion for myself, that's exactly what I said. As for me accusing you of saying that all Japanese martial arts are Karate, I explained it aready that I thought you meant Karate as an umbrella term for all Japanese martial arts, because that is what you sounded like. You give a vague statement with multiple interpretations to it, I give you my personal one, you then go on to negate it saying that isn't what you meant, I say that the misunderstanding is legitimate considering the ambiguity of that statement. That's all. It's done.


It was exemplifying your statement to prove the fallacy.

Yes, but that doesn't really answer the question. "Exemplifying my statement"? I could tell that much, thank you.


Then it's hypocritical of you to do so, since your previous point was that it's not "set in stone".

It's hypocritical of me to do what, argue? It's precisely because these definitions aren't set in stone that we're arguing. Nothing hypocritical in acknowledging that.

It is, but it's hypocritical.

Explain yourself.



If you had started a debate standing on a thesis about economics, and then later said, "I don't care", you could not legitimately continue that same argument by negating your point.

I never negated any of my points nor did I say I didn't care. Not finding something particularly interesting isn't the same as not caring. If I didn't care I wouldn't be here. As I previously stated one can have a point arbitrary but still have convictions on that point.


I'm asking you, for the sixth time, to make reference to the specificity in the origins of the style that you spoke of, not to define the style. I provided history for Karate that contradicted your claim of it. You have not addressed that.

That isn't what you asked me to address however. You asked me to address Karate as a specific style which by defining style I would do so, and I have. Also, you've given me no history on Karate other than what caim from your mouth. If you've done otherwise, please refresh my memory.

[ablo]

http://img287.imageshack.us/img287/2825/karatecr6.png

[Reidar]

I never said I don't know what I mean. I know what I mean. I don't know what you mean because it's contradictory.

I never said you didn't. I'm pointing out an example of you omitting terms in order to specify. If you know what my contradiction is, point it out.

I know I didn't have that opinion for myself, that's exactly what I said.

Yes, but you accused me of believing that that was your opinion, which wasn't the case. Obvously, I didn't say, "Once again, you assumed that intention on my statement, not of having that opinon for yourself" in order to inform you of what you intended.

As for me accusing you of saying that all Japanese martial arts are Karate, I explained it aready that I thought you meant Karate as an umbrella term for all Japanese martial arts, because that is what you sounded like. You give a vague statement with multiple interpretations to it, I give you my personal one, you then go on to negate it saying that isn't what you meant, I say that the misunderstanding is legitimate considering the ambiguity of that statement. That's all. It's done.

It's not. That's a logical fallacy of the undistributed middle. It is an invalid assumption on your part. Nobody else had an issue with that statement.

Yes, but that doesn't really answer the question. "Exemplifying my statement"? I could tell that much, thank you.

Then why did you ask? That's the reason why your assertion is used in the example.

It's hypocritical of me to do what, argue? It's precisely because these definitions aren't set in stone that we're arguing. Nothing hypocritical in acknowledging that.

It is when you contradict your original point.

Explain yourself.
The foundation of your argument lies on the specificity of Karate as a style; that's what the debate has been composed of. You later claim to not care about it as a style.

I never negated any of my points nor did I say I didn't care. Not finding something particularly interesting isn't the same as not caring. If I didn't care I wouldn't be here. As I previously stated one can have a point arbitrary but still have convictions on that point.

"As for whether or not Karate itself is a style, I don't really care."
Post #62.

That isn't what you asked me to address however. You asked me to address Karate as a specific style which by defining style I would do so, and I have.

No, you would have to contradict my version of history with an example of specificity. When I post something that's a cause for controversy, you are supposed to address it with opposing information. The opposition for my account would be you with an example of specificity in Karate's origin, in contrast to my statement of origin.

Also, you've given me no history on Karate other than what caim from your mouth. If you've done otherwise, please refresh my memory.

"That is incorrect. The original style that you made reference to was simply called Te in Okinawa, and was far from a developed system of any form of karate. The next immediate refinement to this came in three forms: Shuri-te, Naha-te and Tomari-te. As one can see, even with the development of these discernments, the term "karate" was not used in any specificity. It was never an unambiguous style." -Post #46

"There's no distinctive date. The collective term for the aforementioned arts was called "Tode". The character for "To" was synonymous with "Kara", and this eventually was adopted by Funakoshi as "Karate-Do" sometime around the turn of the twentieth century. It was much a gradual adaptation, rather than a formal, recorded incident. The phrase "Karate", however, definitely did not precede Shuri, Naha, and Tomari." -Post #52

If you had disagreed with that directly, I would then go on to post sources and works cited. If you had agreed with it, I instead would then point out how it does not coincide with your original claim of historical events.

Also, what was the point of a geographical map? We already know it's from Okinawa.

[ablo]

Alright you win. I'm too tired to go any further.

[Reidar]

Would you be up for further discussion if we condensed this down to the barest essentials? I do appreciate your view, despite the issues brought up.

Do you agree with the version of history that I've posted? I haven't found any inference of Karate being a single style in my studies on it. It seems to me that it was created in order to describe those three Okinawan arts, and from there, it just escalated.

Basically, if we can agree that Karate has no singular system attached to it alone, then perhaps we can end it on a semantics difference and leave it at that.

If you disagree, but still don't feel like talking about it anymore, then fair enough.

[ablo]

I don't know, I don't doubt the history you brought up. I'm really just bored with too much time on my hands. :)

I am familar with Te historically, and its evolution. Where does one say Te and its derivatives end and Karate begins? What's in a name anyway? To me martial arts is a dynamic subject without perhaps crystal clear definitions as you seem to think.

I've always been told that Karate began in Okinawa and that's where I stand. If you go to Japan, I hear that arts such as Judo and Aikido are more respected as they're considered native arts with Karate not so much because of its origins in Okinawa. If you told a Japanese person or Okinawan person that Karate was Japanese, they wouldn't be too pleased. Very xenophobic cultures.

Also our definitions of style are different. I don't see why the word style can't be applied to a more general term. IMO a specific style as I put it would perhaps still be more general than your definition. When I say that it doesn't matter...I don't know.

My personal philosophy is that one shouldn't get too attached to words and technicalities as that detracts and puts limits on art. Not just martial arts, but any art. If anything, they're only for convenience. when communicating. Whether you call it a style or a system, Karate still is what it is. No word can change that. Kind of like orange juice. You can call it apple juice, but its taste doesn't change.

Have you read the Tao te Ching? It talks about something like this. This is what I like about art in general though...it's transcendence of human categorization and labeling. One regret is not continuing martial arts and the musical arts, for other things that I don't find enjoyable for that reason.

The illustration was just to get my point across of the origins of Karate. It came from Okinawa and went to Japan. Can you agree that is what constitutes origin?

[Reidar]

Yeah, but the specific name of "Karate" was used long after Te. I try to go by the exactness of these words as to what they originally were intended to mean. To me, any other opinons and concepts should have new terms for them. An example would be me saying Lee is a martial arts enthusiast, instead of martial artist, in that other topic. If you look at it from an outside perspective, sure, martial "arts" could be anything, since "art" is a subjective term (I think you pointed that out somewhere). However, from what I've experienced, it usually has one intended, non-subjective definition in the context of this subject (and that'd avoid confusion), so I abide by that.

I don't disagree with you that Karate began in Okinawa and went to Japan, of course (I said it's from Okinawa in my first post of the history). Are you bringing that up because I called it Japanese? If so, I say that because Okinawa is a territory of Japan.

[ablo]

However, from what I've experienced, it usually has one intended, non-subjective definition in the context of this subject (and that'd avoid confusion), so I abide by that.


Yah, that's a problem I have. I look at things from too relative point of view. People confuse that with me flip-flopping opinions. I just don't like binding things to a certain level. I think that conversations should be free to whatever level is necessary. We just set different boundaries I guess. Words are meant for convenience so I say, why not use them as such? Words are a double edged sword. On one hand they do provide a sense of freedom as you can communicate ideas much more easily. Otherwise one would have to draw pictures for everything, and the world would be one big charade. On the other hand, if one abides by them too much and binds himself to them, you are in a sense restricted. That's the best way I can explain it. I guess one could apply that to Karate.

About the Okinawa Japanese distinction, that's pretty much what I was talking about. Okinawans don't consider themselves Japananese. Different culture and language.

[Reidar]

Don't you think it'd be more convenient to have specific meanings for words for their respective contexts? At least we can attribute a large part of out disagreement with word usage, and less on factually incorrect instances.

I don't think Okinawans completely disconsider themselves as Japanese so much as they prefer to be known as Okinawan first and foremost. It's the same as how a Hawaiian person has a Hawaiian language and culture, but is still technically American. And since Karate eventually expanded to native Japanese styles, in modern usage, it's a Japanese associate that originated from Okinawan culture.

[ablo]

That's true I guess. Here are some sweet martial arts videos ^_^ :

Some Wing Chun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI4zVUPluXU <<<<< Mainland Wing Chun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE1DzZ7Xn9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6KjJVA_7Lo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m9cOBOhsS4 <<<<Grand master Yip man before he died.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdF1nIAfpk <<<< lol, William Cheung (supposed successor to Yip Man) gets owned in a real fight.

Old movie reel of practicioners in Taiwan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSTyL333hRk

Here is a video of Shotokan Karate being utilized by police in Japan (really cool):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9171300151662938375&q=karate+police

I never did Wing Chun, but I admire its practicality. The only martial art I actually did was Tae Kwon Do for a couple of years, but the school called itself Karate. I asked why, and the school was opened around 30 years ago when no one knew what Tae kwon do was. Only Karate, so that's what name they went under. I enjoyed the experience, but time and other things kept me from it so I stopped. A shame too, because I don't think I was that bad at it. I guess you could say I enjoy Martial arts in the same way someone likes to watch movies or plays, but isn't necessarily an actor.

[Reidar]

I was hoping that Shotokan video would show the police using it against criminals.

This is a boxer taking out two punks in a park.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0mo_1AKveRo

[ablo]

How do you feel about the Shaolin Temple as it stands now? Real martial artists or just wushu gymnists? Good article on Wushu. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wushu_%28sport%29)

The Shaolin Temples were active with what I consider to be real warrior monks at one point in history. During the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese government disbanded the temple, exiling the Saholin monks or killing them as well as most other traditional martial artists.

In the 80's after the success of Jet Li's movie the Shaolin Temple (from what I've heard), people wanted to know more and the Chinese government saw this as a cash cow. Since, however most of the actual monks met their demise at their hands years earlier, they got other people such as monks from surrounding temples to repopulate the temple, renovate it and open it to tourism. As for martial arts, the government invented wushu in the 50's as a competitive sport inspired by traditional kung fu where most traditionalists fled to Macau, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, and the United States.

This Wushu is more like flowery acrobatics to me...not real martial arts, and its currently what's practiced in the Shaolin Temple. The worst part is that they try to pass it off as real martial arts, when its not. Although I myself am not a martial artist as of now, I like China and feel bad for the tourists who go there and pay money for the sterile, flowery, fake thing. I find it sad, not really for martial arts but for Chinese culture in general, as they're losing a very important aspect among other things of their unique culture, in favor of "modernization", whatever the hell that means.

This is why you rarely see any traditional kung fu in the mainland now, just this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1JZ0xPsSkk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmHos1_7haY

Everything is choreographed, there's no spontaneity or martial skill involved. Now don't get me wrong, I could probably never come close to what they do and they're probably really good in their own right...excellent actually. Just not martial arts.

Ideas?

I should note that there are two definitions of Wushu. In china, no one really says kung fu, they use wushu for everything including traditional arts. When I say wushu however, I mean the sport. For the sake of convenience "Kung Fu" is what people use to mean traditional arts.

[Reidar]

There are certainly monks at the monastery who do actual martial arts, and others who go no farther than practicing showy Wushu, or are in it only for the religious and cultural aspects of that life (I've come across people who believe that somebody is automatically a martial artist because they are a monk, and that is definitely not true). But those videos that you posted are just as you say: choreographed movement.

In short, I completely agree with you. I'd be impressed by that sort of movement, but not as a martial art.

[ablo]

This guy is in hist 90s and doing martial arts. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjHbaV5IHkU) I applaud him.

[tofuman]

I was hoping that Shotokan video would show the police using it against criminals.

This is a boxer taking out two punks in a park.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0mo_1AKveRo
That was funny. Looked like the guy acadently hit the guys GF and he got pissed.

[Reidar]

That's what some thought at first, but you can see the guy in the black jacket turn to look at the couple as they're approaching, and the other guy glance over at the girl before actually hitting her. But yes, it is funny.

This guy is in hist 90s and doing martial arts. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjHbaV5IHkU) I applaud him.

That's just awesome.

[ablo]

Who are your picks for the greatest martial artists of all time, living or dead?

Miyamoto Musashi

Wong Fei-Hung

Morihei Ueshiba

Sun Lu-tang

[Reidar]

In no particular order,

Fedor Emelianenko - the current world heavyweight champion of mixed martial arts in Pride FC. His hands may be likened to nuclear warheads, but his submissions and groundfighting are also second to none.
(Hightlight of his knockouts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qhpf1vQm2Y)

Masutatsu Oyama - the founder of Kyokushin Karate, he killed full-grown bulls with his bare fists.
(Video footage of him fighting them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MapyZq4YIo)

Muhammad Ali - fought each of the best in his time, and prevailed; his speed and footwork was unprecedented.
(11 punches in 3 seconds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU2YPXghFkU)

Miayamoto Musashi - traveled around Japan, seeking the many fights that would make his story famous.

[ablo]

Masutatsu Oyama is a beast!:eek:

[Horizin]

tai chi - center of balance \
capoeira - evasion and speed > nice mix...
Hwa rang Do - def and atk /

[Matsu'o Tsurayaba]

Im thinking of taking a Martial Art,since i often exercise,and my body is fit enough to endure Martial training.Personally i would prefer a authentic Asian art,but its hard to find such a thing where i live...

[Reidar]

Why do you want an "authentic Asian art"?

The instructor is what's important, not the name. There are bad teachers for every style, but there's no bad style for any good teacher.

[Horizin]

Hwa rang Do = Korean
capoeira = Brazilian
tai ch = chinese

[Spadesy]

Don't you think it'd be more convenient to have specific meanings for words for their respective contexts? At least we can attribute a large part of out disagreement with word usage, and less on factually incorrect instances.

I don't think Okinawans completely disconsider themselves as Japanese so much as they prefer to be known as Okinawan first and foremost. It's the same as how a Hawaiian person has a Hawaiian language and culture, but is still technically American. And since Karate eventually expanded to native Japanese styles, in modern usage, it's a Japanese associate that originated from Okinawan culture.

BTW, Bingo on both points regarding the Hawaiians and Okinawans. Sure Okinawa is technically a part of Japan, but they have a dialect of the Japanese language and have cultural points and social behaviors that differ from the mainland Japanese somewhat.

(Off subject) I think I've mentioned this before, but mainland Japanese are more kind to outsiders than Okinawans. However, that is mainly because the outsiders are guests of mainland Japan and are treated as such. The Okinawans are less likely to trust outsiders, but once they accept somebody, they'll treat that person good and like family. The mainland Japanese usually don't get past the "you're our guest" point, even though they are kinder initially.

[Spadesy]

Miayamoto Musashi - traveled around Japan, seeking the many fights that would make his story famous.

The heck of it is, the guy never proclaimed an honest-to-God teacher. His ability to kill many men was thanks to simply "knowing" how to teach himself the sword and by experience with strategy.

The Book of Five Rings is a good writing, it makes you go "hm, why didn't I think of that?"

[Baka Ninja]

Im intrested in Daido Juku. Total badass-ness of Karate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMjGQk-k2ZA