"Downfall of Yaoi" article

[DazzleKitty]

Someone posted about this article at another forum and I thought it was interesting.

http://www.sfweekly.com/issues/2006-11-01/news/feature.html?src=news_rss]

I am not sure if this is worth worrying about or not. In my honest opinion, parents should look at the ratings on things they buy their kids. Amost all explicit yaoi manga have warning labels on them, so there is no excuse. It's frustrating that Yaoi Shrine got closed down because of something like that.
Perhaps I am being too hard on them, but it's irritating that they are attacking yaoi because they didn't bother to look at what their kid was buying.

Lots of porn sites are able to stay up, and lots of porn mags are published. I also see lots of hentai online and in stores. If they can stay up, yaoi should be able to live as well.

[Animematt55]

Yeah, parents should look at what their kids are buying. I believe they see it as a comic book, and thus...for kids.
I think Yaoi Shrine may have gotten taken down because it didn't stop minors from entering. Sure the whole "click to enter" things don't work well, but there are better ways.
Yaoi seems to be targeted because it is actually targeted at an underage female audience.

[earsofdoom]

This may be rather off topic but the fan's at these con's don't really shriek.... well you know.... out loud like that do they? I'm hopeing thats just an exageration.

[Animematt55]

This may be rather off topic but the fan's at these con's don't really shriek.... well you know.... out loud like that do they? I'm hopeing thats just an exageration.
Not from what i hear.
Even at regular anime cons, you can hear the yaoi girls scream, and running around swingign their paddles.

[Shiroxx]

I thought Yaoi Shrine got shut down years ago, right? That was BEFORE yaoi got huge in the states.

And i noticed they talked about LOVELESS(my favorite manga this year) being the fifth best selling manga this year. There's only two volumes out and it's already up there. Volume 3 just released like a week ago so i expect LOVELESS to go up a few spots, maybe to number 4, and hopefully to number 3.

[same_animefan]

I think it's annoying when the parents crack down on things like this. I mean, it's the parenst respnsibility to know what their kids are watching/doing and know whether it's "appropriate" for them; not the company producing the material. Why should a genre or company get in trouble for parents not taking responsibilty over their kids? Kind of follows the whole "Parents raising their kids by the TV," thing.

"It's on TV and bad. Instead of telling my kids this is bad, we should just get it banned all together and not have to deal with it."

As far as local bookstores carrying yaoi, give me a break. Anything that is graphic and wrapped, the cashiers are supposed to ask ID for (that's why they are obviously wrapped and labled >_>). They do the same with Hetero Hentai, haven't been problems with that, have there? (I'm actually asking ^^; not being sarcastic.)

The...description kind of scared me of the Yaoi-Con though >_>. I...yeah. I've been wanting to go to one eventually...but...that would scare me >_> and give me a headache.

[Makunouchi]

And my hate for Gundam Wing grows.

[typhonblue]

The...description kind of scared me of the Yaoi-Con though >_>. I...yeah. I've been wanting to go to one eventually...but...that would scare me >_> and give me a headache.

Er... I went to yaoi-con and they are exaggerating. Although if you've ever been to a game in a stadium, it had that sort of highly energized, fun atmosphere. Yes there was cheering and shouting, but I don't remember much high pitched squealing.

There were no yaoi-paddles at the con. There was very little squealing. Mostly it was people going about their business. Many were cos-playing of course. The dealer's room was incredible, BTW. The art auction sucked monkey balls, however.

[typhonblue]

And my hate for Gundam Wing grows.

Er... because it inspired people to like yaoi? Or because it's a crappy series?

[Makunouchi]

Er... because it inspired people to like yaoi? Or because it's a crappy series?

Both of those reasons.

[earsofdoom]

Gundum wing is hated by the gundum fan's becouse basically all it was was a group of overly angsty teenage boys, but becouse of that reason it's revered by yaoi slash fans. I don't think this will be anything near the "downfall" of yaoi but maybe with more parent's and such learning about what it is (and that some of it is pretty graphic) It might get store's to deny allot of 14 year old girls access to some of the more "mature" yaoi. (as we all know 14 year olds tend to go a little over-board with there hobbie's.... just look at myspace) It might even bring a little moderation to the anime genre in the west with pressure being put on licensing company's to license other genre's.
Everything is good in moderation i alway's say.

[typhonblue]

Both of those reasons.

Ah. An angsty fan-boy.

And what I mean by that is... why go out of your way to dislike the propogation of a particular genre?

[Victory]

on the age limit, besides the fact that I strongly think the law should be relaxed:
website - parents' responsibility... there's nothing the website owner can do to prevent someone from clicking "yes I am over 18" from 1000 km away
comics - seller's responsibility: the shopkeep can easily ask for ID

I didn't know they held boy auctions at conventions, although I knew something of the sort existed from popular culture references... sounds funny

"If you've watched enough anime, you've probably encountered "tentacle rape,""
"Rape and sadomasochism are common manga themes,"
lol no

"meant to evoke the anime character Revolutionary Girl"
"They said, 'Comics are for kids, they put this filth in this media that appeals to kids, and we can't allow them to get away with this.'"
lol what

"if it says '801 Media,' you'll know what you're getting"
maybe if you're japanese? I'm confused by this quote

I'm nitpicking but the article has a lot of good info I'm surprised to find in a non-manga/anime site article... usually it goes "OMG THE HENTAE (actual spelling) IS KILLING OUR CHILDRENZ"

finally is yaoi pronounced ya-oi? like a pirate? japanese experts to the rescue please

[Defiled one]

I'm nitpicking but the article has a lot of good info I'm surprised to find in a non-manga/anime site article... usually it goes "OMG THE HENTAE (actual spelling) IS KILLING OUR CHILDRENZ"


Of course its killing them...they arent going to be children for the rest of their lifes you know?...

Has good old Freud would have said if he was alive..to all excessive paranid mothers...

"You have a morbid desire to .#### your child..."

I shall leave this to your interpretation. ;)

[Animematt55]

that artical was pretty typical....stupid parents and all.
But Yaoi sometimes does seem to be targeted directly at 14 yo girls. They do not need to be reading manga about to guys having sex.
But the cashier at the store should stop them from buying it...i remember stopping multiple kids from buying GTA...

Also...i think the yaoi paddles got banned at yaoi-con and others cause people were causing some serious trouble with them.

[GokuMew2]

"if it says '801 Media,' you'll know what you're getting"
maybe if you're japanese? I'm confused by this quote

finally is yaoi pronounced ya-oi? like a pirate? japanese experts to the rescue please
I haven't had the chance to read the article yet, but 801 Media will only be licensing more hardcore manga so I guess that might be what they mean by "you'll know what you're getting."

It's pronounced like yah-oy. (Not yow-ee.)

[same_animefan]

Of course its killing them...they arent going to be children for the rest of their lifes you know?...


A little harsh? I mean, porn hardly kills children. And at 13 and 14 they are already thinking about things like sex, becoming curious, wanting to know more. Kids will look for answers no matter what, and when parents say "don't do that" they go ahead and do it anyway ;) .

No, they won't be children forever, but at some point they DO grow up and learn these things. I don't really want to go into some long debate about this, it's just my opinion on it. PM me if you want to discuss or something.

[Mikadzuki Tatsu]

It's pronounced like yah-oy. (Not yow-ee.)Actually, if you want to get REALLY persnickety about pronunication, yaoi should be pronounced yah-oh-ee (ヤオイ). It's three syllables, not two.

What's this about Barnes & Noble and Borders stocking yaoi on their shelves? Since when? I frequent B&N, and I've never noticed any yaoi titles. Shounen-ai, yes, but not yaoi. And since pretty volume covers and romance titles tend to catch my attention when I'm randomly browsing, there's a good chance I would have noticed any yaoi, and since seeing a yaoi title out in the open on a bookstore shelf for any innocent pre-teen to come by and browse through would have scarred me, there's a good chance I'd remember them.

I wish these parents would stop passing the blame to someone else. Pornography sites are everywhere on the Internet; anyone who has ever done a Google search knows that! If you don't want your 12-year-old daughter looking at yaoi sites, then why don't you install a firewall! It's much cheaper than the money it costs to hire a lawyer to sue such-and-such site for exposing your daughter to inappropriate material, and it gives you the comfort of knowing that your daughter isn't going to looking at anything that you deem inappropriate (unless she figures out how to bypass the firewall).

[DazzleKitty]

What's this about Barnes & Noble and Borders stocking yaoi on their shelves? Since when? I frequent B&N, and I've never noticed any yaoi titles. Shounen-ai, yes, but not yaoi.

Borders and Waldenbooks get quite a few in. They used to stock BeBeautiful and Kitty Media stuff, but it seems like they stopped with the newer stuff. You can still see Level C, Skyscrapers of Oz, and Selfish Love on the shelf. They get in almost every DMP BL/yaoi, whether it has an 18+ rating or not. They also get all the BLU manga.

[same_animefan]

^ But it's so much easier to just pass blaim to the company/website producing it *sarcasm*

[GokuMew2]

Actually, if you want to get REALLY persnickety about pronunication, yaoi should be pronounced yah-oh-ee (ヤオイ). It's three syllables, not two.
Yeah, that's true, but the o and i kinda run together so I just put them as one syllable. Either way, it's NOT pronounced yow-ee. I twitch every time I hear someone say it like that. .>_<

Anyway, I have finally read the article and had a nice reply typed out until my browser ate it. =.(

Personally, I think there are two reasons why parents are so scared of yaoi an want to "protect" their children from it. The first being society's views on homosexuality, and the second being crazed fangirls.

If homosexuality were more accepted in society, I don't think there would be as much controversy over yaoi, besides perhaps some of it being "too" graphic. If a man could freely love a man, and a woman another woman, then yaoi would just be another romance genre. Because many are so grossed out with homosexuality and believe it's wrong, yaoi, being a genre with homosexual themes, is hard to accept. I know gays and lesbians are not really accepted in Japan either but over there it's more of an "it's there but don't pay attention to it if you're uncomfortable." Over here in the U.S. where people are all about freedom of speech, they speak out more about their morals and beliefs, which makes it much harder for something like yaoi to be acknowledged as just another genre of fiction.

Second are the fans. Yaoi fans are stereotyped as being all crazed fangirls who want to become boys so they could engage in the same acts as their favorite characters. So it's bad enough that homosexuality is looked down upon, but people thinking that all fans of the genre must be maniacs makes it even worse. That's two big strikes against yaoi.

Thinking about it this way, it's understandable that parents would be worried about their children, especially if they already have the mindset that homosexuality is not "normal." If I felt this way, I'm sure I wouldn't want my kid turning out to be a crazy fan who doesn't know where to draw the line between hobby and reality.

It would help is people were more understanding, and if some yaoi fans out there were more responsible. By that I mean not talking loudly about yaoi in places where people would feel uncomfortable if they overheard. Of course, if homosexuality were accepted to begin with, we wouldn't have to "hide."

As for the whole rating label thing, publishers are required by law to print a warning ON the item if it's got explicit or mature content, as opposed to just having a sticker on plastic wrapping. I believe all items 18+ must be shrinkwrapped as well. As long as publishers follow the proper guidelines, they should not be held responsible for minors getting their hands on material that they shouldn't have access to. It's like cigarettes and alcohol. The seller needs to check ID and the consumer needs to know what they're buying. But of course, just like cigarettes and alcohol, there are always workarounds to get access even if you're not supposed to. You don't see any of these companies getting sued because kids are smoking and getting drunk, so publishers of yaoi manga should not be held responsible either. If parents don't want their kids looking at yaoi then they're the ones who have to check up on their children's actions.

[Mikadzuki Tatsu]

I know gays and lesbians are not really accepted in Japan either but over there it's more of an "it's there but don't pay attention to it if you're uncomfortable."
I also read in a (now-dead) anime magazine that the Japanese also have this mindset the homosexuality is a phase that the young go through and outgrow: "They'll grow out of it, so let's just let it pass." So I wonder if there's the combination of both of those attitudes.

You don't see any of these companies getting sued because kids are smoking and getting drunk, so publishers of yaoi manga should not be held responsible either. If parents don't want their kids looking at yaoi then they're the ones who have to check up on their children's actions.Quoted for truth.

[CapnTylor]

Boy, do I have some nitpicking! Let's do this!


Lots of porn sites are able to stay up, and lots of porn mags are published. I also see lots of hentai online and in stores. If they can stay up, yaoi should be able to live as well.
Yaoi is also pornography

I also read in a (now-dead) anime magazine that the Japanese also have this mindset the homosexuality is a phase that the young go through and outgrow: "They'll grow out of it, so let's just let it pass." So I wonder if there's the combination of both of those attitudes.
Seeing as (IT SEEMS TO ME!) the majority of you guys are barely pubescant faux-"bisexuals and/or lesbians" I'd bet this growing-out-of-it prediction might come to pass after the vicious-yaoi-habit is kicked and guys start paying attention.

And I third observation: The whole parent-paying-attention gig may work in the middle and upper classes where parents actually give a damn (that isn't to say that there aren't bad middle and upper class parents or that there isn't bad good lower class parents), but sometimes that's not always the case. Besides the fact that sex never killed anyone (unless it's some krazy rape-murder! ...or otherwise) and there is absolutely no reason for holding back pornographic or even violent materials for minors. I guess I should probably provide a useful recommendation for the issue with irate parents or officials having an issue with pornography (which includes yaoi or anything else), but the only reasonable solution is for them to suck it up.

Calling them like I see them!

PS) "Gay" as a pejorative? Wrong? Acceptable?

[Animematt55]

Boy, do I have some nitpicking! Let's do this!



Yaoi is also pornography



Yes it is also Porn, and it seems it is targeted at minors instead of adults.
Sure 16 year olds know all about sex and all that...but there are laws that say they cant view pornagraphy. Yes, the stores need to start gettign ID and all that, but it is up to the parents to keep all this stuff out of their kids hands.

[CapnTylor]

Yes it is also Porn, and it seems it is targeted at minors instead of adults.
Sure 16 year olds know all about sex and all that...but there are laws that say they cant view pornagraphy. Yes, the stores need to start gettign ID and all that, but it is up to the parents to keep all this stuff out of their kids hands.

See editted post above.
But also, hell...That's like saying Playboy is targeted toward minors. Of course it is. There's nothing a 15yr old boy would want to read more, besides Hustler.
It's not like this is a new problem unique to comics.

[Mikadzuki Tatsu]

Seeing as (IT SEEMS TO ME!) the majority of you guys are barely pubescant faux-"bisexuals and/or lesbians" I'd bet this growing-out-of-it prediction might come to pass after the vicious-yaoi-habit is kicked and guys start paying attention.Oy! I was simply referencing something I read in a magazine a couple of years ago. I am not Japanese, I have not been to Japan, I do not know what the Japanese think about things like homosexuality, and I am not claiming to any knowledge. I am merely mentioning things I have heard. (And I'm pretty sure the majority of us here are not barely pubescent bisexuals or lesbians. Watch it.)

[CapnTylor]

Oy! I was simply referencing something I read in a magazine a couple of years ago. I am not Japanese, I have not been to Japan, I do not know what the Japanese think about things like homosexuality, and I am not claiming to any knowledge. I am merely mentioning things I have heard. (And I'm pretty sure the majority of us here are not barely pubescent bisexuals or lesbians. Watch it.)

Oy! (Is this a Sex Pistols or Japanese thing?) I wasn't really talking much about the magazine or the Japanese majority's opinion towards homosexuality (and to be honest it's pretty much a step forward compared to ours in America). My bad--you're right. You range in age from 13-19/20...but honestly! Do you not see this tendency.

[Animematt55]

Well, in america these days, it DOES seem to be a fad to be gay, or Bi....i remember through high school, all the goth type people all claimed to be Bi.... Hell i even did it to screw around with the fundimentalists.

[typhonblue]

Seeing as (IT SEEMS TO ME!) the majority of you guys are barely pubescant faux-"bisexuals and/or lesbians" I'd bet this growing-out-of-it prediction might come to pass after the vicious-yaoi-habit is kicked and guys start paying attention.

"Vicious-yaoi-habit?"

"barely pubescent?"

Where to begin?

How about we start with you, Cap'n. According to your profile you are 17. Perhaps that colors your perception of the world and Boy's Love fans since you likely hang out with girls your age and don't have much understanding of what older women are interested in?

I went to yaoi-con. The oldest women there were in their sixties. I would say a fair majority of women were like me, late twenties, early thirties.

Now, moving on... why is it that *this* thread in particular is really bringing out the angsty fanboys going all miss manners "icky poo" over yaoi?

Perhaps it's the prophesizing of yaoi's doom? Oh my. Why do you guys give a flying **** about yaoi?

(Aside from the fact that yaoi-con has the highest precentage of hot asian chicks in any one gathering this side of the pacific... a fact I thought might thrill the average fan-boy.)

[ZoharContact]

^ But it's so much easier to just pass blaim to the company/website producing it *sarcasm*Sarcastic? It sounds like a true statement to me. It must do wonders for their self-esteem as parents, because then they can actively "protect their child from disruptive influences" (now there's sarcasm ^_^) as opposed to placing the blame on themselves for letting the child buy it, then feeling powerless as they try to rid the child of their fandom. In other words, they are suckers for people like politicians who have to designate something as an enemy and profess to fight it in order to gain any credibility whatsoever with their base.

Pronunciation: No glides on the vowels. It's kind of difficult to explain. Japanese speakers tend to keep their vowels "pure," or static. In other words, you cannot write it as "yah-oh-ee" because an English "yah" is very different from a Japanese "ya." Just say it quickly and simply. Accent is probably interchangeable, but gravitates to the "ya." (The accent I'm giving is a guess. I've never heard the word "yaoi" spoken by a native speaker.) Anyway, glides and misappropriation of stress are the defining characteristics of an English accent, which sounds oh so silly to Japanese people.

I scrounged up a really nice research report on Japanese gay acceptance. Here ya go! (http://wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersections/issue3/mclelland2.html)

Pertinent summation: According to the researcher, Japanese people view family as their prime concern and goal. Even if a man intends to have a gay partner, it seems he is likely to marry a woman. Since gays are not subject to special prejudice such as lawsuits/imprisonment/etc., and they aren't seen as evil, they view the development of their homosexual identity to be subordinate.

[DazzleKitty]

Yaoi is also pornography


I know it is. I feel they are singling that one out when there are other forms of porn out there that are much "worse" for a kid to look at.

I am inclined to disagree with those who said yaoi is targeted to minors. Why do you think 801 got formed? Because the older fans want more adult-oriented stories. If there were only young fans out there, they wouldn't bother.

I've seen a number of fans in their twenties and thirties. I know one woman at a forum I go to for yaoi that is in her fourties.

[CapnTylor]

"Vicious-yaoi-habit?"

"barely pubescent?"

Where to begin?

How about we start with you, Cap'n. According to your profile you are 17. Perhaps that colors your perception of the world and Boy's Love fans since you likely hang out with girls your age and don't have much understanding of what older women are interested in?

I went to yaoi-con. The oldest women there were in their sixties. I would say a fair majority of women were like me, late twenties, early thirties.

Now, moving on... why is it that *this* thread in particular is really bringing out the angsty fanboys going all miss manners "icky poo" over yaoi?

Perhaps it's the prophesizing of yaoi's doom? Oh my. Why do you guys give a flying **** about yaoi?

(Aside from the fact that yaoi-con has the highest precentage of hot asian chicks in any one gathering this side of the pacific... a fact I thought might thrill the average fan-boy.)

I hUng out with a yaoi chick for a day and she was so weird, so I abandoned her in a convention among a crowd. And besides it's not really fair to say that older women are all interested in yaoi because it's just not true.

And I wouldn't call myself and angsty fanboy...I don't even really like anime besides a very very select few anymore and I'm only into that snobby artsy manga. ...and I'm not angsty :O

The fangirl population of yaoi-con would be, I presume,
a larger amount of the sort of yaoi "fangirls" at any other con, which ARE in fact barely pubescant, and run around "glomping," acting cute, squealing, yelling out things Gir from Invader Zim would say with their index fingers up in the air, and generally being unattractive no matter how attractive they are to the eyes. (But maybe Asians are different!)

[Victory]

　 　　　　　　 ／￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣
　 　　　　 ／ thanks gokumew, mikadzuki
　冫、 　＜　　now if I ever want to yell out "yaoi" I won't look silly
　` 　　　　＼ ... maybe
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|⌒彡
|冫、）
|` ／
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| 　hush
|）彡
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[Makunouchi]

Ah. An angsty fan-boy.

And what I mean by that is... why go out of your way to dislike the propogation of a particular genre?

Go out of my way? I only posted a few words. It doesn't have anything to do with me being an angsty fanboy. The article bought up older yaoi fans being annoyed with the giddy new fangirls, and they aren't the only ones. And it's all thanks to that crap heap of a series called Gundam Wing.

[Defiled one]

a larger amount of the sort of yaoi "fangirls" at any other con, which ARE in fact barely pubescant, and run around "glomping," acting cute, squealing, yelling out things Gir from Invader Zim would say with their index fingers up in the air, and generally being unattractive no matter how attractive they are to the eyes. (But maybe Asians are different!)

Yup..that is what you see in these conventions...and these are called "Rabid Yaoi fangirls"

Now to put a little inside joke about this...first, there is no downfall of Yaoi because companies are having profit..and along they have profit..you know :) .

I never seen an "Fujoshi"...I tried and I tried..but didnt see it..."fangirls" we are used to see and people make fun of them..but...no one has ever seen a "Fujoshi" Sure they draw them...because no one has ever seen one... To me, A "Fujoshi" is like black holes in the universe, they are plenty of evidence of their existence but, no one has actualy seen one.


They dont squeel like the others, dont behave like the others, they dont glomp for crying out loud!!!..but they are in the conventions...most of the time you dont even notice them. they may already talked to you...Maybe. Never seen one...but they are the roots...the "Mistress" of Yaoi..at least there was what my crazy neighbor said.

Dont worry there is no downfall of Yaoi, people just need something to pick on.

[Yuu Kanda]

I hUng out with a yaoi chick for a day and she was so weird, so I abandoned her in a convention among a crowd.

I hope you're not basing your opinion of all yaoi fan(girl)s on this one girl you met. That's judgemental, unfair, and would explain pretty damn well why you've said some of the things you have. There's no need to discriminate against a group, especially when it's just because they don't have the interests as you.

The fangirl population of yaoi-con would be, I presume,
a larger amount of the sort of yaoi "fangirls" at any other con, which ARE in fact barely pubescant, and run around "glomping," acting cute, squealing, yelling out things Gir from Invader Zim would say with their index fingers up in the air, and generally being unattractive no matter how attractive they are to the eyes.

From what I've heard, you have to be at least 18 years old to even get in to Yaoi-con. That would cancel out any and all barely pubescent girls. Also, you haven't been to Yaoi-con. You don't hang out with the fans. You're probably not into the genre at all. This entire statment is entirely biased and based on a stereotype. Unless you count your experience with that one yaoi fan "proof", which would just go back to the case of discrimination against this group.

Now, taking from what someone else previously said - someone who's actually BEEN to the convention - the attendees are mostly in their late 20's and early 30's. Some in their 60's. Glomping? Squeeling? Maybe, but you get that at any anime convention. From people people who are both yaoi fans and people who aren't.

And besides, even if they all were how you described - and we can pretty much cancel out they are - why does it even matter how they act? That convention is THEIR place to be around other fans of that share their interest and they should have the right to act however they want. That's the point of conventions. I've never been to Yaoi-Con so I can't say much else. But based on the age range alone, I'm guessing they don't act much different than people at any anime convention.

(But maybe Asians are different!)

(Or maybe everyone acts differently rather than how you like to see them!)

[GokuMew2]

But also, hell...That's like saying Playboy is targeted toward minors. Of course it is. There's nothing a 15yr old boy would want to read more, besides Hustler.
It's not like this is a new problem unique to comics.
I have to diasagree with this.
The major reason why minors want their hands on Playboy magazines is because their hormones are kicking in so they'd naturally bemore curious about women, and also because it's something they're "not supposed to" look at. It being taboo for them just makes them more curious.

I scrounged up a really nice research report on Japanese gay acceptance. Here ya go! (http://wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersections/issue3/mclelland2.html)
This guy's a good source! I used a couple or so of his reports for my research paper.

I agree with what Yuu Kanda said. *thumbs up*
Not that it matters, but I happen to fall in the early 20's category. Just turned 20 on Wednesday, actually. .^^; But yes, I did see some of the older women at Y-Con, and many of my friends are in the described age ranges.

Ya see what I mean? Yaoi gets a negative image from the crazy fangirls. These people need to learn to enjoy yaoi responsibly. Ha, I sound like a beer ad, but it's true. It's unfortunate that yaoi fans are so negatively stereotyped.

[CapnTylor]

I have to diasagree with this.
The major reason why minors want their hands on Playboy magazines is because their hormones are kicking in so they'd naturally bemore curious about women, and also because it's something they're "not supposed to" look at. It being taboo for them just makes them more curious.


Whuh? Yeah, that's what I'm saying...and it's the same for any kind of porn (which includes yaoi).

[blah blah blah]...discrimination...[blah blah]

Firstly I'm not saying she was how she was because she liked yaoi and that's a ridiculous suggestion any how. She was hopelessly socially awkward and embarassing to be around because that's the kind of person she was, and although anime tends to fuel that in these sort of people, it's not BECAUSE she watches/reads yaoi.

Secondly, the rest of your post is boring and probably irrelevant :(

[GokuMew2]

Whuh? Yeah, that's what I'm saying...and it's the same for any kind of porn (which includes yaoi).
You said that Playboy was targeted at 15 year olds. That is what I'm disagreeing with.

As with explicit materials in the States, minors in Japan are not supposed to look at or be able to purchase yaoi or any other mature content. That said, yaoi is not targeted at minors for the same reasons why Playboy is not targeted at 15 year olds. They may want to get heir hands on the material, but it's not specifically targeted at them.

Secondly, the rest of your post is boring and probably irrelevant :(
I found it quite relevant since you were talking about how fans act, and that's exactly what she was replying about.

[CapnTylor]

You said that Playboy was targeted at 15 year olds. That is what I'm disagreeing with.

As with explicit materials in the States, minors in Japan are not supposed to look at or be able to purchase yaoi or any other mature content. That said, yaoi is not targeted at minors for the same reasons why Playboy is not targeted at 15 year olds. They may want to get heir hands on the material, but it's not specifically targeted at them.

That's like saying flavored cigs aren't targeted at minors.


I found it quite relevant since you were talking about how fans act, and that's exactly what she was replying about.

Naw, they were talking about how I am discriminating against a group of people etc etc...and, since I don't have a good comeback for it, it's unimportant anyway, of course.

[GokuMew2]

That's like saying flavored cigs aren't targeted at minors.
What? Not exactly an example I would pick but... The cigarette industry comes up with new products to boost revenue. Minors may get their hands on these products but they were not actively targeted at them. There's a difference.

Anyway, marketing strategies of the tabacco industry is quite off topic so I'll stop there.

Naw, they were talking about how I am discriminating against a group of people etc etc...and, since I don't have a good comeback for it, it's unimportant anyway, of course.
I think you misunderstand. They were saying that if you based your opinion on that one unpleasant encounter, then you were discriminating against yaoi fans. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Yuu.)

So because you don't have anything good to counter what the person said, what they said is unimportant? How immature. If you disagree with someone, you're not supposed to admit they were right by saying you couldn't think of a comeback.

[CapnTylor]

What? Not exactly an example I would pick but... The cigarette industry comes up with new products to boost revenue. Minors may get their hands on these products but they were not actively targeted at them. There's a difference.

Anyway, marketing strategies of the tabacco industry is quite off topic so I'll stop there.


I think you misunderstand. They were saying that if you based your opinion on that one unpleasant encounter, then you were discriminating against yaoi fans. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Yuu.)

So because you don't have anything good to counter what the person said, what they said is unimportant? How immature. If you disagree with someone, you're not supposed to admit they were right by saying you couldn't think of a comeback.

Cigs: What? No way man. Flavored cigs ARE actively targeted at minors. Targeting something at someone isn't illegal, just having the product sold to them. . .in the same way, so is yaoi.

Other stuff: I'm not admitting they were right at all! :P Au contraire, I'm admitting that they are wrong by way of me saying so.

[Mikadzuki Tatsu]

Cigs: What? No way man. Flavored cigs ARE actively targeted at minors. Targeting something at someone isn't illegal, just having the product sold to them. . .in the same way, so is yaoi.
Things like cigarettes aren't exactly specifically targeted at minors, per se, although the cigarette companies do aim to get minors' attention so when those minors turn 18, they're all ready to smoke them flavoured cigarettes. I think it's more accurate to say that the target is college-aged students who are newly independent and are experimenting with their freedom and coming-of-age.

And why are we comparing cigarette marketing strategies to pornography marketing strategies in the first place? The two are completely different!

[GokuMew2]

Au contraire, I'm admitting that they are wrong by way of me saying so.
That's weak.

Things like cigarettes aren't exactly specifically targeted at minors, per se, although the cigarette companies do aim to get minors' attention so when those minors turn 18, they're all ready to smoke them flavoured cigarettes. I think it's more accurate to say that the target is college-aged students who are newly independent and are experimenting with their freedom and coming-of-age.

And why are we comparing cigarette marketing strategies to pornography marketing strategies in the first place? The two are completely different!
Yes.
And I have no idea.

[CapnTylor]

You people are perpin' if you think A) Minors cannot easily buy cigs and B) the companies don't take advantage of that...

and they aren't completely different, lol, because it's the same strategy that porno companies AND yaoi publishers use. Are you guys for real?

[same_animefan]

Minors buy cigarretes from older people who bought them for them, or steal them. I've seen the first one too many times to deny it. Cig companies do want the new generations to buy their products, yes, and they market them to catch the interests of the new wave of teens through colorful ads and such. They don't "directly" market to teens, but they find loop holes.

And yeah, they are different. The porn idustry won't be affected by whether its teens or people 80 years old buying their products. Cigarette companys hook them young to keep their sales longer. Porn doesn't. Just because someone looks at porn in highschool doesn't mean they will continue to for years to come.

The logic behind cigarrete companys and teens is that cigarettes are addicting, and teens are more likely to be "influanced" by the ads and "Oh, it's cool. Try it. Everyones doing it." Smoking isn't something people pick up, try for a day or two, then stop. It's addicting. Normally people who start smoking continue for years, if they ever quit. Hook one person, that person in their teens will be smoking longer than someone who gets started in their 30's. One teen is good for decades of sales to come. Adults? Yeah, their good for sales, but it won't be as long. Pornagraphy doesn't have that hook, line and sinker aspect to consider in their sales.

[Animematt55]

You people are perpin' if you think A) Minors cannot easily buy cigs and B) the companies don't take advantage of that...

and they aren't completely different, lol, because it's the same strategy that porno companies AND yaoi publishers use. Are you guys for real?
I think the problem is many girls don't very Yaoi as any kind of porn. To them it is all just two cute guys having sex. That is one of the main problems right there, refusing to admit what it really is.
And if you are goign to try to add in regular hentai to this...minors don't buy hentai (at least not offline...but you need a credit card to buy online anyways) they just steal it...)working at media play it seems Hentai was the second most stolen thing, after rap CDs.

[CapnTylor]

I'd say that teens view more pornography as a whole than any other age group. Unless some one can prove me wrong otherwise. It may not be the exact same as cig sales but I think it was a pretty good example none the less.

And besides, porn isn't addictive like nicotine is anyway. A teen who buys porn won't be a repeat customer until he dies, this is true. But he will still get his hands on it THEN, as a teen. Most adults won't. And it's probably a moot point with the internet anyway but that's a different story. With yaoi(-porn), the company is relying on middle class parents buying these things for their daughters like they're pokemon merchandise. Aha! The secret is out!

I'm not against any of this stuff either btw, I'm totally Libertarian.

[same_animefan]

^That's what I just said, so you can't really compare the sales strategy. And what is your point that the teen will get it "...THEN, as a teen. Most adults won't". I don't get what your saying by that. That adults now didn't get it when they were teens? I have no clue what you meant.

And the pornography industry is hardly relying on "middle class parents" to buy porn for their kids. Maybe some kids grab their parents credit cards and buy something online, but the parents are hardly "buying it for them".

[CapnTylor]

For yaoi, I mean, yes, this is the case.

[GokuMew2]

I think the problem is many girls don't very Yaoi as any kind of porn. To them it is all just two cute guys having sex. That is one of the main problems right there, refusing to admit what it really is.
Here we go again.
I don't think ANYONE in this thread has denied that there are some yaoi that's purely porn. However, there is MORE to yaoi than just porn. Yes, there is yaoi porn, but that is not to say that ALL yaoi works are pornographic.

Yaoi is stereotyped as being all porn just as yaoi fans are stereotyped as crazy fangirls who want to become boys so they can get it on with a guy.

[Defiled one]

OKay...Im not going to nagg but, when Matt is in this..little me must go along with it...so Im not going to make a critic about it..

Im just going to show you......so that you people can decide.. if Yaoi is PRON OR NOT..because Im seeing this to cigars..and we arent talking about cigars...

The Yaoi Market..Must be 18 years old to see this..see at your own risk. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOr19ALbF1I)

And no..its not pron..but a documentary :3 cuchi? cuchi?

[CapnTylor]

Awesome link, if a little homophobic. =/

But yes, yaoi is porn handsdown.

[Yuu Kanda]

Whuh? Yeah, that's what I'm saying...and it's the same for any kind of porn (which includes yaoi).



Firstly I'm not saying she was how she was because she liked yaoi and that's a ridiculous suggestion any how. She was hopelessly socially awkward and embarassing to be around because that's the kind of person she was, and although anime tends to fuel that in these sort of people, it's not BECAUSE she watches/reads yaoi.

Secondly, the rest of your post is boring and probably irrelevant :(

Then there was no point for you to bring it up. If her being weird had nothing to do with yaoi and you weren't trying to throw out an example of what the effect of yaoi has on it's fans (which is exactly what it sounded like based on your other points), there was no point for you to actually bring it up in the first place. Because that would be irrelevant and also make your second statement hypocritical.

And no, it wasn't, you just couldn't think of anything to say in response.

[GokuMew2]

The Yaoi Market..Must be 18 years old to see this..see at your own risk. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOr19ALbF1I)
Ikebukuro Animate honten!! Oh how I miss that place.....

The documentary is very one-sided. Anyone who watches this would think that yaoi is just porn.

And I *LOVE* bl dramas. (It helps if you're a seiyuu fan who likes yaoi.) I think I've got Love Prism (http://asphodelshaven.com/audiowiki/Love_Prism) somewhere...
Anyway, it's not surprising that the girls freaked when they tried listening to it. Diving into bl dramas when you don't know what yaoi is isn't the best way to go about things.

(But for all the yaoi fans, I do recommend checking out bl dramas. Seiyuu are so talented!!)

[Victory]

haha awesome video

[Yuu Kanda]

I think the problem is many girls don't very Yaoi as any kind of porn. To them it is all just two cute guys having sex. That is one of the main problems right there, refusing to admit what it really is.

I've never seen any yaoi fan say this. I'm not sure where you're even getting this from. But I have seen a lot who have no problem admitting they're perverts who like watching mansex. ^^;


The Yaoi Market..Must be 18 years old to see this..see at your own risk.

Wow, it's heaven. *_* And there's doujinshi everywhere. I didn't know places like that existed and I thought you could only buy doujins at comic conventions. If I ever visit Japan, that's where I'm headed first. Thanks for sharing that. ^^

[CapnTylor]

And no, it wasn't, you just couldn't think of anything to say in response.

Well, that IS what I said...

Same_animefan: What? I meant that teens that buy/look at porn now aren't by any means succeptable (sp?) to buying/looking at it in a few years. like pot (another unneeded comparison though).

And, yeah, based on what I've seen, and based on what people have been saying earlier in this thread, Kids go in with money their parents give them to buy yaoi or with their parents to buy yaoi, and buy it. Either they aren't carded (which I'm not complaining about) or their parents don't care/don't really look at it first. The majority of any mature-audience manga is probably sold this way in general let alone to minors.

[GokuMew2]

Wow, it's heaven. *_* And there's doujinshi everywhere. I didn't know places like that existed and I thought you could only buy doujins at comic conventions. If I ever visit Japan, that's where I'm headed first. Thanks for sharing that. ^^
Besides at Comiket, you can buy doujinshi from Animate and other places like Character Queen (http://c-queen.net/), Mandarake (http://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/shop/en/index.do), and K-Books (http://www.k-books.co.jp/). The latter two have a much wider selection than Animate (read: you ain't seen nothin' yet). Character Queen tailors a lot more to seiyuu fans. (Whoo hoo!)

And, yeah, based on what I've seen, and based on what people have been saying earlier in this thread, Kids go in with money their parents give them to buy yaoi or with their parents to buy yaoi, and buy it. Either they aren't carded (which I'm not complaining about) or their parents don't care/don't really look at it first. The majority of any mature-audience manga is probably sold this way in general let alone to minors.
Yes, so the yaoi industry in the U.S. is not at fault when minors get ahold of explicit material.

Though I've never bought any myself, I'm sure people card more often for porn magazine purchases than yaoi manga. People see manga as being for kids so if they see a kid trying to purchase a yaoi manga, they may not notice the little warning label on it. Porn magazines are not as discreet.

I'm not exactly sure why this point was brought up again, but anyway....

[Mikadzuki Tatsu]

The Yaoi Market..Must be 18 years old to see this..see at your own risk. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOr19ALbF1I)
I knew that doujinshi was a common thing in Japan and that plenty of places sold it, but you know, I never pictured seeing that much doujinshi in one place. And I certainly never imagined that one could find that much yaoi doujinshi in one place! I'm not a yaoi fan, but I have friends who are, and it makes me laugh to think of what their reactions would be when they walk into a place like that.

[Animematt55]

So is that animate place a strictly yaoi place? Or does it do everything?
And the video was rather poor...two immigrants that spoke rather poor sounding Japanese....who cares what they think.

[GokuMew2]

I knew that doujinshi was a common thing in Japan and that plenty of places sold it, but you know, I never pictured seeing that much doujinshi in one place. And I certainly never imagined that one could find that much yaoi doujinshi in one place! I'm not a yaoi fan, but I have friends who are, and it makes me laugh to think of what their reactions would be when they walk into a place like that.
Haha. Comiket would totally blow their minds then.
Think of a football field sized hall full of people selling doujinshi, a majority of it being yaoi. ....Yeah. It's crowded. And FYI, the industry hall upstairs is full of mainly hentai fanboys. It smells. Bad. .^^;

Here (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/atobe_keigo@sbcglobal.net/detail?.dir=1c51&.dnm=52f3.jpg)'s where Comiket is held (Tokyo Big Sight).

So is that animate place a strictly yaoi place? Or does it do everything?
And the video was rather poor...two immigrants that spoke rather poor sounding Japanese....who cares what they think.
No. Animate (http://www.animate.co.jp/) is like, THE place to buy anime goods. In the video, they only showed the yaoi floor, which is like the 7th or so floor.
This (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/atobe_keigo@sbcglobal.net/detail?.dir=1c51&.dnm=97ef.jpg) is the Animate main store in Ikebukuro. All eight floors (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/atobe_keigo@sbcglobal.net/detail?.dir=1c51&.dnm=c67a.jpg) of it. Not all the Animate stores are this big. This one's huge because it's the main store.

Oh how I long to go back....

[same_animefan]

Same_animefan: What? I meant that teens that buy/look at porn now aren't by any means succeptable (sp?) to buying/looking at it in a few years. like pot (another unneeded comparison though).


No, I was originally arguing your cigarette comparison agrument, and than you agreed with me about it (or, that's what I understood, anyway) though I think this whole thing got skewed somewhere along the line. What I was questioning was what I had in qoutes from you that I didn't understand.

But he will still get his hands on it THEN, as a teen. Most adults won't

Either I'm being an idiot or you phrased this oddly. I don't understand it. Was it maybe refering to cigarettes instead of porn? Even so, did you mean 'didn't' in place of 'won't'? The "MOST ADULTS WON'T" threw me off completely.

[earsofdoom]

I scrounged up a really nice research report on Japanese gay acceptance. Here ya go! (http://wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersections/issue3/mclelland2.html)

Pertinent summation: According to the researcher, Japanese people view family as their prime concern and goal. Even if a man intends to have a gay partner, it seems he is likely to marry a woman. Since gays are not subject to special prejudice such as lawsuits/imprisonment/etc., and they aren't seen as evil, they view the development of their homosexual identity to be subordinate.

This may be off topic but is it just me or does it seem like all any of those reports ever seem to talk about is gay men's acceptance. I don't think I've ever seen or read many report's on bisexual men/woman or lesbians acceptance. we even had somewhat of a fad awhile ago with allot of show's like queer as folk, boy meet's boy, etc. It just bother's me becouse it seem's like whenever anyone talks about "gay right's/acceptance" they only mean gay men.

[Animematt55]

This may be off topic but is it just me or does it seem's all any of those reports ever seem to talk about is gay men's acceptance. I don't think I've ever seen or read many report's on bisexual men/woman or lesbians acceptance. we even had somewhat of a fad awhile ago with allot of show's like queer as folk, boy meet's boy, etc. It just bother's me becouse it seem's like whenever anyone talks about "gay right's/acceptance" they only mean gay men.
I have noticed this too....
I have noticed a lto of them use porn as a reference...you know all the girl on girl porno out there....Since it is accepted by guys, they mus tthink it is accepted by society

[CapnTylor]

Either I'm being an idiot or you phrased this oddly. I don't understand it. Was it maybe refering to cigarettes instead of porn? Even so, did you mean 'didn't' in place of 'won't'? The "MOST ADULTS WON'T" threw me off completely.

Eh, I meant that most adults won't continue buying porno-mags through their adulthood if they do as teens but I can't for the life of me remember why that was even significant to me.


Matt: Those chicks weren't foreigners, haha. To the best of my knowledge they're some ganguro broads that do all these anime-based "news reports." there's a bunch of them on youtube.

[same_animefan]

^Ok, that makes more sense. You just kinda threw it all together and that statement just confused the hell out of me.

[CapnTylor]

My sincerest apologies, mademoiselle.

[Victory]

And the video was rather poor...two immigrants that spoke rather poor sounding Japanese....who cares what they think.hohoho

This may be off topic but is it just me or does it seem like all any of those reports ever seem to talk about is gay men's acceptance. I don't think I've ever seen or read many report's on bisexual men/woman or lesbians acceptance. we even had somewhat of a fad awhile ago with allot of show's like queer as folk, boy meet's boy, etc. It just bother's me becouse it seem's like whenever anyone talks about "gay right's/acceptance" they only mean gay men.to make a long story short from reading on the internets, gay male sex "subverts the male's role to that of a female one" so it's considered offensive while with women there is no such thing. yes you heard right even within discrimination there is double standard/sexism... it's like discrimination-squared

[ZoharContact]

This may be off topic but is it just me or does it seem like all any of those reports ever seem to talk about is gay men's acceptance.In that research paper, the author mentions lesbians briefly, but it mostly focuses on gay men. Don't worry. Lesbians have sources (http://www.yuricon.org/essays/index.html), too. I was just looking for something pertinent to the topic and googled "Japanese gay acceptance," and people often can't decide whether "gay" is female-inclusive or not. Just search for "Japanese lesbian acceptance" for the alternative.

I will readily recognize that gay men have bigger problems with discrimination. That is because they are hated more by the half of population that is in power. Don't get the idea that lesbians are exempt from that, though...

[Defiled one]

So is that animate place a strictly yaoi place? Or does it do everything?
And the video was rather poor...two immigrants that spoke rather poor sounding Japanese....who cares what they think.

You are absolutly right Master Matt..."Rubs hands while hunching"

This way...I shall lead you to the heart of Yaoi..where Female fans spend their time....I got a feeling that Master Matt shall like it..Come Master

The heart of Yaoi...hobbies and fun places for girls. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i3GX0Y9mf0)

[typhonblue]

I will readily recognize that gay men have bigger problems with discrimination. That is because they are hated more by the half of population that is in power. Don't get the idea that lesbians are exempt from that, though...

Or thinks that it is in power.

BTW, women don't hate lesbians like men hate homosexual men. That's because lesbians don't threaten women's femininity like homosexual men threaten straight men's masculinity.

Also intimate behavior between women isn't as stigmatized as intimate behavior between men.

BTW, lesbian intimacies may not be stigmatized, but the lifestyle may be because there is an expectation that people marry the opposite sex and have children in society. However gay men's intimacies are stigmatized *and* they deal with the social expectations as well.

[Animematt55]

You are absolutly right Master Matt..."Rubs hands while hunching"

This way...I shall lead you to the heart of Yaoi..where Female fans spend their time....I got a feeling that Master Matt shall like it..Come Master

The heart of Yaoi...hobbies and fun places for girls. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i3GX0Y9mf0)
hehe, looks fun...i love girls in ties and such...
Can i get some from the kanon or Lum cosplayer? If so I will totally go for it.
But...those "boys love cafes" They really seem more like girls love cafes...seeign as the waiters are actually women....

[earsofdoom]

In that research paper, the author mentions lesbians briefly, but it mostly focuses on gay men. Don't worry. Lesbians have sources (http://www.yuricon.org/essays/index.html), too. I was just looking for something pertinent to the topic and googled "Japanese gay acceptance," and people often can't decide whether "gay" is female-inclusive or not. Just search for "Japanese lesbian acceptance" for the alternative.

I will readily recognize that gay men have bigger problems with discrimination. That is because they are hated more by the half of population that is in power. Don't get the idea that lesbians are exempt from that, though...

That's good to know especially since allot of those article's were written by gay women. (so i Imagine they are allot more accurate) It just seem's that with all the focus on gay male acceptance they are throwing lesbian's to the wolve's, (and when a majority of your friends are lesbian's you really feel like no one really cares about them) I don't think it should matter if one group is being descriminated against a bit more then the other IMO any discrimination at all is to much, both groups should have equal support.

Or thinks that it is in power.

BTW, women don't hate lesbians like men hate homosexual men. That's because lesbians don't threaten women's femininity like homosexual men threaten straight men's masculinity.

I don't think you really have the right to tell zohar lesbian's aren't discriminated against.... only a lesbian can say if she's being discriminated against or not, I know for a fact that lesbian's are called some rather nasty thing's by straight woman which i won't post here becouse im sure no one want's to hear it anymore then i do (which is not at all) but i will say one thing, they are viewed as "un-proud woman" by some who think they "gave up on finding a man becouse it was to hard".


Also intimate behavior between women isn't as stigmatized as intimate behavior between men.


EDITED: I strongly disagree.

[ZoharContact]

Im sure some ppl like rosa chinensis remember there was a "red wing's" comment made on this board awhile back. <_<Just let that comment sink under the bridge, where it belongs... along with its equal, yet opposite counterpart, which I will not mention.

[earsofdoom]

Just let that comment sink under the bridge, where it belongs... along with its equal, yet opposite counterpart, which I will not mention.

Sorry bought that, I just thought it was very naieve to say that gay men are the only one's that recieve any kind of that discrimination when i remembered a comment like that which when i first read it made me feel very disgusted. i'll edit that post now so we may never speak about it again.

[typhonblue]

I don't think you really have the right to tell zohar lesbian's aren't discriminated against.... only a lesbian can say if she's being discriminated against or not, I know for a fact that lesbian's are called some rather nasty thing's by straight woman which i won't post here becouse im sure no one want's to hear it anymore then i do (which is not at all) but i will say one thing, they are viewed as "un-proud woman" by some who think they "gave up on finding a man becouse it was to hard".

Is that similar to the crap I've had to endure because I "gave up on the sisterhood" and decided a man could make me happy?

The truth is that women have an unerring ability to ***** and gossip about any particular life-style any particular woman chooses.

As for saying lesbians aren't descriminated against... I go by statistics. Statistically the victims of hate related violence and murder are overwhelmingly gay males. The greatest rate of homophobic rape is committed against biological males who identify as women.

Men are bearing the brunt of this particular predjudice and we're not talking idle gossip or verbal nastiness.

As for the "red wings" comment. From my, addmittedly flawed memory, it was in response to an unnamed poster who said something equally disgusting about sex between men.

[Animematt55]

Just cause statistics say that gay men are off worse...that doesnt mean that gay women should just be over looked for equality.

[CapnTylor]

What is the red wing comment y'all are talking about. I can hardly imagine something about cunnilingus during menstruation being the most horrific thing anyone has ever dared to mention, besides it being icky.

And honestly everyone would be better if everyone didn't whine about equality and discrimination and stuff. Plus it isn't the thread or place for it.

[LaFawnduh]

Is that similar to the crap I've had to endure because I "gave up on the sisterhood" and decided a man could make me happy?

The truth is that women have an unerring ability to ***** and gossip about any particular life-style any particular woman chooses.

As for saying lesbians aren't descriminated against... I go by statistics. Statistically the victims of hate related violence and murder are overwhelmingly gay males. The greatest rate of homophobic rape is committed against biological males who identify as women.

Men are bearing the brunt of this particular predjudice and we're not talking idle gossip or verbal nastiness.

As for the "red wings" comment. From my, addmittedly flawed memory, it was in response to an unnamed poster who said something equally disgusting about sex between men.

I am normally quiet and lurk around here,but you're comments to me,are down right hate filled comments.

First off Matt is a guy...and bashing lesbians because he is bashing gays or yaoi,makes no sense what so ever.

Secondly,alot of people do not report things that happen to them,so statistics,is kinda to me,anyway a moot point.

Yes,women do bash lesbians badly,I've heard the comments,many women are so afraid that a lesbian is going to rape them or come on to them,that they seem down right terrified,as if lesbians are the bogeyman waiting to jump at them around the corner.

My ex and I have had people stop and honk their horns at us(we weren't even holding hands) Once we had a beer bottle thrown at us.We were called freaks.

So don't give me that "Lesbians are never discriminated against" bull crap because you really wouldn't know.


ciao,
LaFawnduh.

[Animematt55]

I work with quite a few lesbians, also a few gay guys, and i over hear a lot of crap that people say about them.
One that used to work there was really cool, and she was open too. She was smart, and got a better job though.

[typhonblue]

I am normally quiet and lurk around here,but you're comments to me,are down right hate filled comments.

First off Matt is a guy...and bashing lesbians because he is bashing gays or yaoi,makes no sense what so ever.

I haven't bashed lesbians.

Secondly,alot of people do not report things that happen to them,so statistics,is kinda to me,anyway a moot point.

Then we can't have a meaningful discussion comparing anything.

However... I know from my own studies of female-focused magazines and male-focused magazines that male intimacy is more stigmatized then female-intimacy.

If you don't see that, I'm not sure if we're on the same planet.

Yes,women do bash lesbians badly,I've heard the comments,many women are so afraid that a lesbian is going to rape them or come on to them,that they seem down right terrified,as if lesbians are the bogeyman waiting to jump at them around the corner.

Really?

I've been subject to sexual assualt from a woman as has my mother. Both of us rarely talk about lesbians. Most of the other straight women I know hardly ever talk about lesbians.

Certainly not hardly as much as I hear the straight men I know crack jokes about gay men.

My ex and I have had people stop and honk their horns at us(we weren't even holding hands) Once we had a beer bottle thrown at us.We were called freaks.

So don't give me that "Lesbians are never discriminated against" bull crap because you really wouldn't know.

I never said lesbians weren't descriminated against. I said that they were discriminated against *less* at least in terms of extreme violence.

Look at the memorial lists of people who have been killed by gay bashing. They are 98% male.

You have experienced verbal harrassment. I have as well when I walked hand in hand with my ex-girlfriend. However I also know lesbians who feel free to kiss in public in crowded coffee-shops, bars and restaurants. That they do so, bespeaks of women's greater freedom to be intimate in public.

As for the beer-bottle thing. I don't know what the hell is up with that. Beer bottles have been thrown at me when I was walking down a street with my husband. I think its a drunk thing or something.

[LaFawnduh]

I haven't bashed lesbians.
How about the post you made about most lesbians being 250 pounds with short hair and hate men?I am sure I could dig that quote out easily


Then we can't have a meaningful discussion comparing anything.

There are alot sexual assaults that happen,where women are to afraid to report them
However... I know from my own studies of female-focused magazines and male-focused magazines that male intimacy is more stigmatized then female-intimacy.
I know plenty of women,who start to question women if they get a bit too close to each other,accusing them of being gay.
Some women I know won't comment on whether or not a woman is pretty because they don't want to be accused of being gay.
If you don't see that, I'm not sure if we're on the same planet.


I've been subject to sexual assualt from a woman as has my mother. Both of us rarely talk about lesbians. Most of the other straight women I know hardly ever talk about lesbians.
I was sexually assaulted at 13 by a male mexican...but I don't hate men nor do I think a mexican male is going to rape me,when he sees me.
Certainly not hardly as much as I hear the straight men I know crack jokes about gay men.
I heard men make jokes about lesbians,more so then gays.Not all guys like to see 'two chicks making out'



I never said lesbians weren't descriminated against. I said that they were discriminated against *less* at least in terms of extreme violence.
Maybe in extreme violence,and you don't really know if they are discriminated against less or more,since you aren't a lesbian,or talked to every single lesbian.


You have experienced verbal harrassment. I have as well when I walked hand in hand with my ex-girlfriend. However I also know lesbians who feel free to kiss in public in crowded coffee-shops, bars and restaurants. That they do so, bespeaks of women's greater freedom to be intimate in public.

Maybe they don't care what people think,and maybe other people just didn't give a rats *** about what they were doing,that doesn't mean,that lesbians aren't being discriminated against.

As for the beer-bottle thing. I don't know what the hell is up with that. Beer bottles have been thrown at me when I was walking down a street with my husband. I think its a drunk thing or something.

Maybe...

ciao,
LaFawduh

[Animematt55]

on a side note...i have also had beer bottles thrown at me...a lot of people thought i was gay in High school, but i was also not in the popular group, and wore a (business) trench coat...so lots of reasons.

[typhonblue]

How about the post you made about most lesbians being 250 pounds with short hair and hate men?I am sure I could dig that quote out easily

Go ahead.

Be sure to dig up the context as well.

There are alot sexual assaults that happen,where women are to afraid to report them.

This is a bit of a non sequitor.

I know plenty of women,who start to question women if they get a bit too close to each other,accusing them of being gay.
Some women I know won't comment on whether or not a woman is pretty because they don't want to be accused of being gay.

What culture do you live in?

Where I am I haven't experienced any of this.

If anything there is more of a preassure *towards* finding women attractive.

I heard men make jokes about lesbians,more so then gays.Not all guys like to see 'two chicks making out'

Again you must be in a very, very different cultural context then me.

I've never heard guys comment on lesbians except to say how attractive two women together are.

Maybe in extreme violence,and you don't really know if they are discriminated against less or more,since you aren't a lesbian,or talked to every single lesbian.

Again I refer you to statistics and memorials. There are agencies that keep track of hate crime statistics, btw.

Maybe they don't care what people think,and maybe other people just didn't give a rats *** about what they were doing,that doesn't mean,that lesbians aren't being discriminated against.

I've been on both sides of the fence, so to speek.

I, personally, have experienced more pressure against seeing men as sexually desirable then seeing women as sexually desirable.

If you look in the media, portrayals of women who desire other women are almost universally attractive, whereas when a woman is depicted desiring a man she is also depicted as being unnattractive or defective somehow.

I deal with that internalized dysfunction quite a bit. And the lack of support for women who desire men (not a family, not marriage, not a romantic ideal, but *men*) is particularly apparent to me. It bothers me when men (and often women) tell me they find men disgusting and that they can't understand why anyone would be attracted to them.

It makes me feel flawed for finding men attractive. Whereas women are seen as automatically attractive.

When I was on the other side of the fence, it almost seemed to make more sense to people. I had less people questioning my preferance. And, as long as I wasn't militant, people just left me alone.

In conclusion, people tend to shoot off their mouths a lot.

[Shiroxx]

Okay. Obviously gay men are more discriminated against than lesbian women. That's not to say that lesbians shouldn't get much attention. Everyone in the homosexual community knows what it is like to be discriminated against. It's not a good thing.

But the fact is, gay men have more protection simply because practically 90% of the straight male population hates them. On the contrary, lesbians are seen as something "COOL" and "HOT" to straight men. Just take a look at this statistics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_laws_of_the_world

And we all know all of those leaders of those countries are men. Straight men, some probably are closeted gays themselves trying to appeal to a certain group of conservatives.

The majority of the world is against gay men. 100% of the laws against homosexuality applies to men and only a fraction of those laws include women in it. A good example is in Oceania, most of the laws against homosexuals are "male only". There are more hatred toward gay men than women. That is a fact. But that doesn't mean that gay men should get more protection, but they are more focused on recently with hate crimes toward gay men occurring everyday in the middle East. Gay men are given the death penalty once they are caught in Iran.

Just cause statistics say that gay men are off worse...that doesnt mean that gay women should just be over looked for equality.

I don't think anyone has said that gay women should just be overlooked for equality just because of the statistics that depict more discrimination against gay men.

[Defiled one]

OKay...the main reason, for the lesbian comunity is greatly more acepted in the society in a male point of view is becasue of..ehmm pron...Men like it so, when they see something like that..they are like...well you know.
Unfortunatly..they only see the lipstick type of lesbians...not the butch ones, of course being a butch is not unatractive for a male point of view...being a butch does not necessarely mean a sloppy fat person who hates men with the very essence of their soul...those are stereotypes..you saw my link you get my point.

Now I only talked about a male point of view...what about strait women? well the mentality of a woman is very complex so I will sum this up to you...
Its not the lesbian that actualy scares them but...this combination...

Brain + Beauty/Charisma + Lesbian = The most dangerous type of person besides a rapist, yes a rapist, towards their well being...

Mostly because they are unoticed, woman dread to actualy show themselves naked towards this type of person...well they are afraid to get raped...Its understandable.

Think like this....the most "hot stuff" for guys works with you in the office..you never saw her with guys or any male part besides work...She usualy stays more time with you helping you..best colleagues in sense, sometimes she acompanies you in weekends to some parties..everything is alright..until you know she is a lesbian...your mind blocks because you dont know how to categorize her as a friend or a person who can actualy molest you. Losing this confidence, you have now two problems, you have to watch out for males..and females...thus paranoid unsues, losing completly trust in the others, creating a self closure inside of each of one of us.

The same thing happens in the male point of view towards gay..

[CapnTylor]

Man I feel totally ignored.

Everyone is hating on the breeder!

But seriously it's like: My minority group which I am representing is more discriminated against than yours! Nuh uh! Because we get raped more! No way! We have laws against us in...well, somewhere in Oceania! /wrists

[Mikadzuki Tatsu]

Normally, I would stay out of this argument, but this is getting out of hand. The original point of this thread was not whether or not gays are more discriminated against than lesbians. All LGBTQ are discriminated against; they're all victims of prejudice in society.

Someone pointed out to me that women in general are often discriminated against, and since lesbians are also women, they fall into the same boat as the rest. Perhaps discrimination against gay men stands out more because there is no culture out there where the entire male gender is discriminated against?

[ZoharContact]

What culture do you live in?

Where I am I haven't experienced any of this.You aren't a lesbian. (Edit: You might also take note of the location in her profile.)I, personally, have experienced more pressure against seeing men as sexually desirable then seeing women as sexually desirable.

If you look in the media, portrayals of women who desire other women are almost universally attractive, whereas when a woman is depicted desiring a man she is also depicted as being unnattractive or defective somehow.Somehow I get the feeling that inference is colored by perception. Who knows... perhaps, just maybe, mine could be colored as well, but I get the impression that the greatest majority of media I see portray a woman and a man as the normal, healthy lifestyle. I mean, call me crazy, but that's the impression I glean even as I make fewer and fewer forays into the world of popular contemporary media.

Maybe you mean sexual attraction, apart from any trifling details such as romantic love or (god forbid) making a family, apparently lesbians desiring each other is considered healthy, right? But... where? The predominant archetype that floats up into my mind is a woman who lusts after an unwilling partner, and just so happens to be a) possessed by an evil spirit b) diseased c) evil, or what I think is most prominent, which is d) insecure, often to the point where she winds up trying to kill her unwilling partner when she rejects her, or even out of fear of rejection.

Evidently, the more off-kilter the lesbian character is, the more she turns the male viewers on. They're basically portrayed as sex machines, not as normal people who can come together to make a healthy family and raise healthy kids.

So, please excuse me when I fail to acknowledge the lofty social tier to which I've been elevated, by my virtues as a sex object.All LGBTQ are discriminated against; they're all victims of prejudice in society.That's right. Again, I realize that gays have a harder time, (because the half of the population that hates them, and doesn't think they're hot, makes the rules), and transgendered people probably have yet a harder time. But competing to prove that your side is more unfortunate accomplishes absolutely nothing. (Speaking of which, I hope all of you have voted.)

[Mikadzuki Tatsu]

IMHO, no side is more unfortunate than another. One can argue that all people who identify as LGBTQ are in the same boat: the bulk of society doesn't consider them "normal," and so they're discriminated against. It may seem that one side is discriminated against more than the other, but I don't think that's the case.

[Shiroxx]

Man I feel totally ignored.

Everyone is hating on the breeder!

But seriously it's like:My minority group which I am representing is more discriminated against than yours! Nuh uh! Because we get raped more! No way! We have laws against us in...well, somewhere in Oceania! /wrists


No one is representing a specific group. Get it right. I support gay people. When I say gay people, i mean everyone in the homosexual community. My brother's gay. My best friend's a lesbian. I don't play favorite but the fact is, gay men are more discriminated against when considering the whole Earth population. That's a fact. I hope you understand we're not trying to say lesbians don't get discriminated against. They do. Just not as much as gay men overall.

[typhonblue]

No one is representing a specific group. Get it right. I support gay people. When I say gay people, i mean everyone in the homosexual community. My brother's gay. My best friend's a lesbian. I don't play favorite but the fact is, gay men are more discriminated against when considering the whole Earth population. That's a fact. I hope you understand we're not trying to say lesbians don't get discriminated against. They do. Just not as much as gay men overall.


I wouldn't say the whole Earth population. There are some cultures that discriminate against lesbians more then gay men. They just aren't decended from Judeau-Christian cultures.

BTW, men may rule the world, but western men rule it for the benefit of western women. ;)

[typhonblue]

You aren't a lesbian. (Edit: You might also take note of the location in her profile.)Somehow I get the feeling that inference is colored by perception. Who knows... perhaps, just maybe, mine could be colored as well, but I get the impression that the greatest majority of media I see portray a woman and a man as the normal, healthy lifestyle. I mean, call me crazy, but that's the impression I glean even as I make fewer and fewer forays into the world of popular contemporary media.

Again, I'm not talking about the heterosexual paradigm that has women being the object of sexual attraction. Rather I'm talking about the taboo shadow side to that paradigm that posits men as the sexual object.

Throughout my life I've witnessed many stories that portrayed women who lust after men as a. ugly and/or b. socially undesirable.

To this day I feel uncomfortable and defensive about the fact that I find men sexually desirable.

Again this is distinct from the above mentioned heterosexual paradigm where the desire is focused on the woman, and often the woman is less aroused by her partner being sexually appealing then by her partner sexually desiring her. Also the paradigm suggests that the man is offering the woman something other then sexual desirability.

That overwhelming heterosexual paradigm, that woman is sexually desirable, man is grotesque and has to offer her something besides his non-existant attractivenes in order to cement their relationship, is what stresses me out.

If I still lived with a woman, I wouldn't have to deal with the internalized self-loathing involved in sexually desiring men. (Not socially, romantically, financially or other-ially, SEXUALLY.) I might have to deal with the same kind of tut-tutting and tsking people hold for everyone who does something weird and eccentric yet still not too threatening.

Maybe you mean sexual attraction, apart from any trifling details such as romantic love or (god forbid) making a family, apparently lesbians desiring each other is considered healthy, right? But... where? The predominant archetype that floats up into my mind is a woman who lusts after an unwilling partner, and just so happens to be a) possessed by an evil spirit b) diseased c) evil, or what I think is most prominent, which is d) insecure, often to the point where she winds up trying to kill her unwilling partner when she rejects her, or even out of fear of rejection.

Do you see this in western media?

I see that lesbian couples are often used to "humanize" gay causes. For instance, the main undesirable in "V is for Vendetta" is a gay man. Do we get a love story involving gay men? Nope. We get a love story involving two women. "Kinesy", uses a lesbian couple to humanize Doctor Kinsey's work and give him faith in the rightness of his cause again.

These are the things I've seen. The last time I saw an unflattering depiction of a lesbian was "Monster" and that was based on real life. Could you tell me where these depictions of lesbians as undesirable are(in western media)?

BTW, you can't really understand the nature of being elevated due to being attractive until you've experienced being unnattractive.

BTW, men may be making the rules, but who are they making them for? Most of the truly misogynist societies have *also* been the most accepting of male homosexuality and the least accepting of female.

[Animematt55]

typhon....you seem to be saying that it is a bad thing to show lesbians in a good way (like in V for vendetta) While i haven't seen the movie yet (cant believe i forgot about the 5th of November), i remember hearing that ALL gays are hated in that society...not just men.
You also seem to be martrying yourself, thinking your a victim to out society.

[ZoharContact]

That overwhelming heterosexual paradigm, that woman is sexually desirable, man is grotesque and has to offer her something besides his non-existant attractivenes in order to cement their relationship, is what stresses me out.If that were true, in media with a central heterosexual relationship, there would be no need for attractive male actors like Leonardo DiCaprio, Orlando Bloom, and Johnny Depp among others, would there?If I still lived with a woman, I wouldn't have to deal with the internalized self-loathing involved in sexually desiring men. (Not socially, romantically, financially or other-ially, SEXUALLY.)To be honest, I don't think that kind of self-loathing is necessarily connected with heterosexual desire. Lesbians can be ashamed of their libido, all the same. That's because we're women, too, and like other women we've also been told, since early childhood, that having sexual urges is dirty and base.Do you see this in western media?I don't see much western media, but I've seen it, to be sure. Buffy the Vampire Slayer had a lesbian character who turned evil for a season, or something. I haven't seen that part of the series, though, so I can't describe it in detail. In Smallville, there were appearances of female characters infected by some "red kryptonite" or something, that forced themselves on other girls to drain their energy or something awful. Again, I haven't seen the series, but I've heard of multiple appearances of that type. There was also some porn-ish movie called Immortal (or something...) where the antagonist is a vampire who seduces women, kills them, drinks their blood, bathes in it, and other horrible things. The only time she shows compassion is around the main character, who is a man.

Also, I've never seen a western lesbian movie without a sex scene in it. Evidently, there always has to be one. Or two. Or four. Or many more.

Let's face it. Homosexuality, whether in the case of men or women, whether meant to be disturbing or titilating, is often attributed to "sickness." This was a concept that was covered in my linguistics class, Language and Violence. It's one of the ways we dehumanize gays in our language.BTW, you can't really understand the nature of being elevated due to being attractive until you've experienced being unnattractive.Perhaps not, but maybe you can understand what it means to be revered for your looks and not for, say, your strength, willpower, or heroism.BTW, men may be making the rules, but who are they making them for?While not all, some of the rules they make are made to satisfy their own selfish views of how women should be. For a nice, recent... no, present example, abstinance education teaches us that condoms don't prevent disease, and that masturbation brings all manner of horrible things (while it is actually very healthy), among other useful things our kids need to know. So girls (and boys, but especially girls) need to keep their virginity and remain "pure" and "untainted" until they grow up and become married to a man, at which point they can have sex all they want, of course, with no risk of STD infection at all.

You speak as though the image of women as "the fairer sex" hurts only men, but can you understand that it works both ways?

Now, I know there are feminist policies that work to the detriment of men, and I don't agree with them. My kind of feminist aims to achieve equality, not superiority. Silly expectations for women to be fairer and to be provided for, or for men to be competent and to provide, should be done away with. If you want to complain about social attitudes that supposedly elevate women at men's expense, don't complain at me. Complain with me, okay?

[Kaosgirl]

Again, I'm not talking about the heterosexual paradigm that has women being the object of sexual attraction. Rather I'm talking about the taboo shadow side to that paradigm that posits men as the sexual object.

I'm against the objectification of people in general, so to me it seems like you're actually asking society to encourage dehumanizing men.

Going from that view, I hope you'll understand if I don't exactly support you on this.

[typhonblue]

If that were true, in media with a central heterosexual relationship, there would be no need for attractive male actors like Leonardo DiCaprio, Orlando Bloom, and Johnny Depp among others, would there?

Gah. The only one I find attractive is Johnny Depp. And you're right, there is that disconnect.

Why use attractive men when *being* attracted to men is stigmatizing. I think it's a fine line but one that Hollywood never crosses. (Or rarely.)

I remember only one time a quasi-hollywood movie depicted an attractive woman looking at a man (actually two men) with "that look(tm)" of raw physical hunger.

It was so startling. Particularly since, after she did that, she almost visibly became less attractive in my eyes and started to appea socially retarded. I realize that, objectively she hadn't changed, yet my perception of her *had*. My conditioning kicked in.

For a nice, recent... no, present example, abstinance education teaches us that condoms don't prevent disease, and that masturbation brings all manner of horrible things (while it is actually very healthy), among other useful things our kids need to know. So girls (and boys, but especially girls) need to keep their virginity and remain "pure" and "untainted" until they grow up and become married to a man, at which point they can have sex all they want, of course, with no risk of STD infection at all.

Male circumcision was originally practiced to prevent homosexuality and masterbation. I think anti-sex attitudes can hurt men rather severely, as well. Looking at the whole virginity thing another way... boys define their manhood by having sex with women, therefore their virginity is a burden they find shaming. That's possibly as painful and malignant a mind-set as the one girls endure.

Now, I know there are feminist policies that work to the detriment of men, and I don't agree with them. My kind of feminist aims to achieve equality, not superiority. Silly expectations for women to be fairer and to be provided for, or for men to be competent and to provide, should be done away with. If you want to complain about social attitudes that supposedly elevate women at men's expense, don't complain at me. Complain with me, okay?

I'm not trying to complain at you, I think I just have a very different world view.

[typhonblue]

typhon....you seem to be saying that it is a bad thing to show lesbians in a good way (like in V for vendetta) While i haven't seen the movie yet (cant believe i forgot about the 5th of November), i remember hearing that ALL gays are hated in that society...not just men.
You also seem to be martrying yourself, thinking your a victim to out society.

Er. Wrong on both counts. I don't think it's a bad thing to show lesbians in a good way, I pointed those positive potrays out to Zohar as counter-examples to her argument.

I'm not martyring myself, merely pointing out a psychological issue I've had problems with.

[typhonblue]

I'm against the objectification of people in general, so to me it seems like you're actually asking society to encourage dehumanizing men.

Going from that view, I hope you'll understand if I don't exactly support you on this.

Is it objectifying to admire someone for their ability to play soccer? Do math? Speak Japanese?

Why would it be objectifying to admire someone for their physical beauty? Beauty is just as much an accident of birth as a knack with languages, mathematics or athletic ability.

[Kaosgirl]

Is it objectifying to admire someone for their ability to play soccer? Do math? Speak Japanese?


That's quite a shift, going from being an "object of attraction" (as you originally said) to being admired for a gift of birth. Changes the whole context.

I've got no problem with admiration, except perhaps a bit of difficulty telling when it's genuine and when it's just empty words being uttered to get me in bed.

[Animematt55]

I'm not martyring myself, merely pointing out a psychological issue I've had problems with.
Then stop thinking it is all societies fault. It is your own problem if you think that finding males attractive is seen as bad. I know of nothing that actually says this. You need to stop making your personal problems, a society problem.

[typhonblue]

Then stop thinking it is all societies fault. It is your own problem if you think that finding males attractive is seen as bad. I know of nothing that actually says this. You need to stop making your personal problems, a society problem.

Other people have expressed a similar view-point too. That society looks down on women who sexually desire men and makes them feel flawed.

One of those people was my psychiatrist.

In my experience it affects more people then just me and more people are aware of it then just me. Just because it's social conditioning that doesn't have government funded institutions combatting it, doesn't have it's own ribbon or charity, doesn't mean it doesn't exist and doesn't _hurt_.

BTW, I don't have to stop doing a damn thing. If I see society making a mess of something, I will say so.

[Animematt55]

doesn't have government funded institutions combatting it, doesn't have it's own ribbon or charity, doesn't mean it doesn't exist and doesn't _hurt_.

Kinda like how there is no "month" for prostate cancer, even though it kills more people than breat and cervival cancer combined? How most cancer funding goes towards breast cancer...

[typhonblue]

Kinda like how there is no "month" for prostate cancer, even though it kills more people than breat and cervival cancer combined? How most cancer funding goes towards breast cancer...

Er... if you're using this as a counterexample to what I wrote, you're using it against the wrong person.

I agree totally. Prostate cancer is massively underfunded compared to breast cancer, as are a lot of social, medical and legal issues that slam men much harder then women.

[Mikadzuki Tatsu]

Other people have expressed a similar view-point too. That society looks down on women who sexually desire men and makes them feel flawed.
Wait a second... That makes no sense. We live in a society that favours heterosexuality. Why the heck would society look down on women for sexually desiring men, but not look down on women for sexually desiring other women? That makes absolutely no sense. Now, if you're saying that society looks down on women for sexually desiring period, then that's different, but what you said just doesn't make sense to me.

[typhonblue]

Wait a second... That makes no sense. We live in a society that favours heterosexuality. Why the heck would society look down on women for sexually desiring men, but not look down on women for sexually desiring other women? That makes absolutely no sense. Now, if you're saying that society looks down on women for sexually desiring period, then that's different, but what you said just doesn't make sense to me.

It favors the flavor of heterosexuality where the woman provides the "spark" for the man's desire. Not the other way round.

The implication is that women desire men for what men can do for them, not for men's intrinsic sexual desirability.

Of course hollywood exploits the fact that women desire attractive men, but the expression of this desire through action is taboo. A woman is not supposed to be *seen* to desire men, she has to keep that a secret.

In a way it's similar to the effects of male attractiveness in the work place. Attractive men earn significantly more in the work place then unattractive men, so many men, obviously, have a preference for attractive men, being around them and employing them, yet most men in the west would never admit to or act on this homoerotic effect.

[Animematt55]

Of course hollywood exploits the fact that women desire attractive men, but the expression of this desire through action is taboo. A woman is not supposed to be *seen* to desire men, she has to keep that a secret.

care to give some examples?

[typhonblue]

care to give some examples?

Sure. The Music Video for "It's Raining Men".

Quite a few "buddy" movies have one or more men being pursued by large, unattractive women.

Fatal Attraction.

Hairspray.

Muriel's Wedding.

Plus all the dire warnings that dating and relationship "experts" give to women about pursuing or showing too much interest in men(which can include such things as... talking to him first, calling him when you say you will, etc.) From these experts you'd think women were in danger of catching leprosy or imploding or ending up on the streets if they ever were straight up and honest about their attraction to men.

[Animematt55]

i havent seen those...care to indulge me?

and those dating experts are rip offs. they basically say lead a guy on to see how interesting he is in you....

[DazzleKitty]

Geez....I should have figured posting this article would result in this. It's the same argument we've had over and over.....

[ZoharContact]

Geez....I should have figured posting this article would result in this. It's the same argument we've had over and over.....Hmm... I would have thought we at least managed to remain on topic somewhat, but...

Wakarimashita. ::deletes::

[Kaosgirl]

Other people have expressed a similar view-point too. That society looks down on women who sexually desire men and makes them feel flawed.


Oddly, no woman that I know of has expressed that viewpoint; I can see how I might have missed it, but if it's as ubiquitous as you present it as then surely I should know at least one girl who's felt the same thing.

Maybe they're ashamed to admit it... but if that was the case, it would imply that this battle has already been won (more or less,) that it's now women who *don't* sexually desire men that are seen as flawed and looked down on.

[DazzleKitty]

Hmm... I would have thought we at least managed to remain on topic somewhat, but...

Wakarimashita. ::deletes::

Oh! I didn't mean you had to delete it. I was kinda ranting.... I guess I'm just frustrated because everyone in this part of the forum is always having this kinds of fights! It's just not as much fun here anymore.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I feel really stupid and bad now. :(

[typhonblue]

Oddly, no woman that I know of has expressed that viewpoint; I can see how I might have missed it, but if it's as ubiquitous as you present it as then surely I should know at least one girl who's felt the same thing.

Maybe they're ashamed to admit it... but if that was the case, it would imply that this battle has already been won (more or less,) that it's now women who *don't* sexually desire men that are seen as flawed and looked down on.

Ask them how they feel when they express finding men more attractive/beautiful/sexy then women to other people besides people they know will agree with them. Also ask if they've ever seen a positive portrayal of a woman acting on her sexual desire for a man, rather then *reacting* to his pursuit.

I think it's more of a subconcious situation for most women. They aren't actively aware of it till they attempt to *make* themselves aware of it.

[Animematt55]

Ask them how they feel when they express finding men more attractive/beautiful/sexy then women to other people besides people they know will agree with them. Also ask if they've ever seen a positive portrayal of a woman acting on her sexual desire for a man, rather then *reacting* to his pursuit.

I think it's more of a subconcious situation for most women. They aren't actively aware of it till they attempt to *make* themselves aware of it.
still not following you....So if a woman 'reacts' to a man...it is a bad thing...but if she takes the first step....it is a good thing but she is seen as bad....

What world you living in?

[typhonblue]

still not following you....So if a woman 'reacts' to a man...it is a bad thing...but if she takes the first step....it is a good thing but she is seen as bad....

What world you living in?

What world are *you* living in Matt? I'm seriously wondering about your reading comprehension and your apparent desire to create artificial, over-complicated mis-interpretations.

I said if a woman expresses sexual desire towards a man or pursues him instead of reacting to his sexual advances, *both* are a bad thing.

[Animematt55]

never seen that happen in my life....

[typhonblue]

never seen that happen in my life....

Again, I point you to the list of media I offered.

Plus the numerous times I've experienced, in *my* life, women and men telling me how they don't understand how someone could find a man attractive.

[Animematt55]

you will have to explain the mieda examples a little more...i havent seen any of them.

[typhonblue]

you will have to explain the mieda examples a little more...i havent seen any of them.

In many buddy movies there are women who pursue the buds but they are large and unnattractive.

In Hairspray a large, unattractive girl pursues a more attractive man. She gets him in the end, but the implication is that only unnattractive girls pursue men.

In Fatal Attraction, a psychotic woman pursues a man.

In the "It's Raining Men" music video several unnattractive women are seen desiring men.

In general, only psychotic or unnattractive women are seen as openly desiring or pursuing men in media.

Although this is slowly changing. Yay!

[Mikadzuki Tatsu]

I said if a woman expresses sexual desire towards a man or pursues him instead of reacting to his sexual advances, *both* are a bad thing.
So if a man expresses sexual desire toward or pursues a woman, all is well, but if a woman expresses sexual desire toward or pursues a man, then her behaviour is socially unacceptable? There was a point in the past where it was frowned upon for a woman to express certain sexual behaviours, but that was about a hundred-some-odd years ago. I don't think that's the case today. No one frowns when they see a female flirting, and that's a way of expressing sexual desire for a man, is it not?

In general, only psychotic or unnattractive women are seen as openly desiring or pursuing men in media.
Likewise, I can say that there are plenty of negative portrayals of men openly desiring or pursuing women in the media, as well. You're just using extreme examples, and that's not fair. I can think of many movies in which a woman desires after a man, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[typhonblue]

So if a man expresses sexual desire toward or pursues a woman, all is well, but if a woman expresses sexual desire toward or pursues a man, then her behaviour is socially unacceptable? There was a point in the past where it was frowned upon for a woman to express certain sexual behaviours, but that was about a hundred-some-odd years ago. I don't think that's the case today. No one frowns when they see a female flirting, and that's a way of expressing sexual desire for a man, is it not?

Where are you getting all your information from? From what media?

Western. Plus innumerable conversations I've overheard, read or had with women and men who consider it "impossible" to desire men sexually.

As for flirting, a lot of female flirting involves, once again, focusing on the man's desire for her, rather then her desire for the man.

[typhonblue]

Likewise, I can say that there are plenty of negative portrayals of men openly desiring or pursuing women in the media, as well. You're just using extreme examples, and that's not fair. I can think of many movies in which a woman desires after a man, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Okay, name some of both.

And be careful, because a lot of "woman desiring after a man" in media, is really "woman desiring after a man's desire of _her_".

[ZoharContact]

Oh! I didn't mean you had to delete it. I was kinda ranting.... I guess I'm just frustrated because everyone in this part of the forum is always having this kinds of fights! It's just not as much fun here anymore.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I feel really stupid and bad now. :(No, no, no. It wasn't that I deleted it because I thought you wanted me to, so much as... well, I was a little jumpy, and I knew it[my post] would bring a bit more needless strife into the mix.

I agree with you to a great extent, however. It's a lot more fun to discuss than to argue. The problem is that English speakers subscribe to the generative metaphor "argument is war" in that there is a winner and a loser. Honestly, though, if convincing the other side to adopt your viewpoint is "winning," then exactly how possible is it to "win" an argument?

I gave up on convincing typhonblue long ago. I just hope some people on the sidelines might look at what I write and think, "hmm... that's interesting..." Is that expectation too optimistic? I hope that bothering people isn't the only thing I'm managing to accomplish...And be careful, because a lot of "woman desiring after a man" in media, is really "woman desiring after a man's desire of _her_".That's because the woman is the "object" and the man is the "agent". Often times, principles of feminism are referred to as "raising the woman to the subject position". This is just one of the products of language's influence on thought patterns. To explain in detail would take oh so very long.

Also, this is basically repeating what others have said, and what I've said before, but could you perhaps acknowledge that this problem you speak of is not limited to "desire of men", but desire itself? However it may appear in the media, it is actually quite difficult for lesbians to force themselves out of that state of self-repression and become the "agent". (Or, at least, it was difficult for me, difficult for my girlfriend, and difficult for many others. Rather, it continues to be very difficult.)

As an aside, my girlfriend is shyer (shier? Shire?) than I am, yet she asked me out... not that I'm bragging or anything. :-" She often reminds me of how difficult it was.

[DazzleKitty]

I am going to be kinda honest here. I've agreed with a lot of what you have said in the past, typhonblue, but I think some of what you are saying now is a little far-fetched. I guess you could say I changed my mind on some of these things.

You named off a few examples, but there are several movies where attractive women desire men and get them. I know that for a fact because I was always so frustrated that the pretty woman got the man. I think some of the media you mentioned is showing that the underdog can get men too.

I've noticed that men think it's gross to be attracted to guys. Thus their lack of understanding on why girls like yaoi, and why they think girls should like girl on girl too. I think that's a very ignorant way to think, but I've noticed this in a lot of forums I visit.

You also mention how men are in power all over the world, but the ones in the USA are in power to benefit women (or something along those lines). While I think men are portrayed in a sexist way oftentimes, there are still some things that are that way for women too. If they trying to make the women happy, then there would be more things like yaoi for women to look at. A good portion of the media industry still caters to men. Look at a lot of music videos, movies, and adult entertainment.....most of it is male-oriented.

You may have found women in your life that don't like men. Around where I live, I haven't encountered that so much. Me and all the women in my family like to talk about the guys we find hot, and all the girls my age always talk about cute boys. If it was really bad to be finding guys attractive, they would all be talking about the girls they like, wouldn't they?

I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but I wanted to add my thoughts to the mix.

[typhonblue]

You named off a few examples, but there are several movies where attractive women desire men and get them. I know that for a fact because I was always so frustrated that the pretty woman got the man. I think some of the media you mentioned is showing that the underdog can get men too.

It's more then that. Only the underdog *pursues* the man. Even in a situation where an attractive woman is interested in an attractive man, it's usually *his* desire for her that's the spark in the relationship.

It's a very hard thing to describe until you've seen its reverse, where the "spark" in the relationship is the woman's desire for the man.

I've noticed that men think it's gross to be attracted to guys. Thus their lack of understanding on why girls like yaoi, and why they think girls should like girl on girl too. I think that's a very ignorant way to think, but I've noticed this in a lot of forums I visit.

Men think it's gross to be attracted to men. And there are a lot of women who think it's gross as well, or just odd.

At least in my experience. I've heard tonnes of women describe men's genitalia as disgusting.

You also mention how men are in power all over the world, but the ones in the USA are in power to benefit women (or something along those lines). While I think men are portrayed in a sexist way oftentimes, there are still some things that are that way for women too. If they trying to make the women happy, then there would be more things like yaoi for women to look at. A good portion of the media industry still caters to men. Look at a lot of music videos, movies, and adult entertainment.....most of it is male-oriented.

The west is lopsided thiat way.

But do you think Japan, even though it does have media aimed to appeal to women's sexual desire of men, is less patriarchal then the west?

You may have found women in your life that don't like men.

It's not that they don't like men, just that they find men sexually unappealing. And yet they still classify themselves as straight. Very strange.

[Victory]

Listen I'm usually not prejudiced or anything but if someone EVER came up to me and showed me a man just... having SEX with ANOTHER MAN, I'D... I'D... do nothing

there's even rumours here that they're going to CHANGE the sacred definition of marriage to allow a MAN to marry another MAN... that is COMPLETELY acceptable (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/03/19/gaymarriage040319.html)

[Animematt55]

Men think it's gross to be attracted to men. And there are a lot of women who think it's gross as well, or just odd.

At least in my experience. I've heard tonnes of women describe men's genitalia as disgusting.



The west is lopsided thiat way.

It's not that they don't like men, just that they find men sexually unappealing. And yet they still classify themselves as straight. Very strange.
It is someones personal opinion whether they like the look of a man's genitals. I have only heard a few girls on this forum say they like the look of them....
Now why ar eyou condemning women, and society for women's personal choices?

there's even rumours here that they're going to CHANGE the sacred definition of marriage to allow a MAN to marry another MAN... that is COMPLETELY acceptable
Women fall under that law too...
and is it bad that when i first glanced at that artical title, i saw Quebec, and queer? LoL :P

[earsofdoom]

No, no, no. It wasn't that I deleted it because I thought you wanted me to, so much as... well, I was a little jumpy, and I knew it[my post] would bring a bit more needless strife into the mix.

I wouldn't say you were jumpy, Your response's were completely natural and im sure anyone who's experianced rough time's would react the same way if someone told them they hadn't had it rough at all. you were just trying to prove something in a calm manner after all.



it is actually quite difficult for lesbians to force themselves out of that state of self-repression and become the "agent". (Or, at least, it was difficult for me, difficult for my girlfriend, and difficult for many others. Rather, it continues to be very difficult.)

As an aside, my girlfriend is shyer (shier? Shire?) than I am, yet she asked me out... not that I'm bragging or anything. :-" She often reminds me of how difficult it was.

I can only imagine how difficult it is, It's nice to hear the shy ppl can take the initiative (is a very shy person himself) it makes me want to kick myself a bit cuz i could never do that myself..... and she had no way of even knowing if you liked girls. at least if i asked i would know i stand a bit of a chance. (Im gonna march out there and give it a shot tommo..... next wee..... err mon..... "sigh" year. :uhh: )

[typhonblue]

It's more then that. Only the underdog *pursues* the man. Even in a situation where an attractive woman is interested in an attractive man, it's usually *his* desire for her that's the spark in the relationship.

It's a very hard thing to describe until you've seen its reverse, where the "spark" in the relationship is the woman's desire for the man.

I think I've figured out how I can describe it succinctly.

The only time it's portrayed that the sexual tension in the relationship is due to the woman's desire for the man is when the woman is unnattractive.

[typhonblue]

It is someones personal opinion whether they like the look of a man's genitals. I have only heard a few girls on this forum say they like the look of them....
Now why ar eyou condemning women, and society for women's personal choices?

What if many people in society said that women's genitals were disgusting? Wouldn't we consider that a problem?

I'm not condemning anyone, Matt. Would you stop saying that I am? I'm just pointing out social pressures that I have percieved in my life. I'm not condeming the women I've met who have fallen prey to them, nor am I condemning society for creating them. (Because I don't usually condemn amophous, abstract entities for things.)

I'm just interested in *pointing* it out. Plus if I was codemning the women who've expressed it, I'd be condemning myself as well. And then where would I be? Self-flagellation every friday?

Wait. I think I've figured you out. You think one gender finding the other gender disgusting is a *good* thing, as long as it's women finding men disgusting. It sits well in your world view which is to have every woman be a lesbian.

[Animematt55]

well your not pointing out anything...boohoo you have had bad experiences with women, so what? stuff like that happens all the time...
For the record...i find womens genitals disgusting....the area between the legs is something i dont want to see, no matter what sex you are. Is that a problem? am i considered crazy for saying such an odd thing? I am straight....and dont like womens genitals....i MUST be crazy

[earsofdoom]

Listen I'm usually not prejudiced or anything but if someone EVER came up to me and showed me a man just... having SEX with ANOTHER MAN, I'D... I'D... do nothing



In all honesty i would be bothered by that, just becouse someone doesn't like seeing 2 ppl of the same gender haveing sex doesn't mean that they hate gay's and lesbians. I'm sure that's not what you ment but i just felt i had to say becouse I've met allot of ppl in real life who seem to think just becouse men arn't finding that appealing that they are anti-gay.

(plz ppl don't turn this into a flaming debate, feel free to add to this but plz don't try to argue it.)

[Matsu'o Tsurayaba]

After reading some of this interview,i would not be suprised if Yaoi was simply outlawed.

[Animematt55]

After reading some of this interview,i would not be suprised if Yaoi was simply outlawed.
cant be....freedom of the presses...
THe main problem with it is that their kids are buying the hardcore stuff.
I think it is mainly offline....the parents see it and say "oh, its just that animu comics" and let their kids buy it off line with the parents credit cards. They dont realize it is porn...

[typhonblue]

well your not pointing out anything...boohoo you have had bad experiences with women, so what? stuff like that happens all the time...
For the record...i find womens genitals disgusting....the area between the legs is something i dont want to see, no matter what sex you are. Is that a problem? am i considered crazy for saying such an odd thing? I am straight....and dont like womens genitals....i MUST be crazy

When did I say I had bad experiences with women?

It's almost impossible to have a coherent conversation with you matt.

And yes, I think that *is* a little weird. But maybe it's because of inexperience? (Don't mean to be rude at all.)

[typhonblue]

After reading some of this interview,i would not be suprised if Yaoi was simply outlawed.

Why do you think it would be outlawed?

I doubt it, personally.

[Shiroxx]

Listen I'm usually not prejudiced or anything but if someone EVER came up to me and showed me a man just... having SEX with ANOTHER MAN, I'D... I'D... do nothing

there's even rumours here that they're going to CHANGE the sacred definition of marriage to allow a MAN to marry another MAN... that is COMPLETELY acceptable (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/03/19/gaymarriage040319.html)

Sorry to burst your bubbles but Gay Marriage has been legalized in Quebec since March 19th, 2004. It's not a rumor.

Wait, are you sure you're living in Quebec?

In all honesty i would be bothered by that, just becouse someone doesn't like seeing 2 ppl of the same gender haveing sex doesn't mean that they hate gay's and lesbians. I'm sure that's not what you ment but i just felt i had to say becouse I've met allot of ppl in real life who seem to think just becouse men arn't finding that appealing that they are anti-gay.

(plz ppl don't turn this into a flaming debate, feel free to add to this but plz don't try to argue it.)

How about if you see two men kissing? How will you react? Will you feel bothered or disgusted by seeing two men kissing in public?

Just wondering.

[Victory]

Sorry to burst your bubbles but Gay Marriage has been legalized in Quebec since March 19th, 2004. It's not a rumor.

Wait, are you sure you're living in Quebec?uwaah

I'm parodying guys that flip out at the mention of anything queer that dazzlekitty mentioned

click on the link ヽ(´ー｀)/

[earsofdoom]

How about if you see two men kissing? How will you react? Will you feel bothered or disgusted by seeing two men kissing in public?

Just wondering.

I don't know if you can call it "bothered" but I don't enjoy seeing it, doesn't mean i think gay men shouldn't be allowed to do it or that i hate gay men it just mean's it's something i don't enjoy seeing. but then again i usually don't like seeing anyone kiss in public. (for some reason it seem's that when kissing in public some ppl seem to think "let's try to make ppl feel as uncomfortable as humanly possible" and start going over board) I wish ppl would just do a simple kiss in public rather then a make-out session. anyway's back on topic: It just seem's like you could support and be-friend some gay men, but if you don't enjoy watching that automatically make's you a "homophobic hater".

[ZoharContact]

and she had no way of even knowing if you liked girls.No, no, she did. We were friends for at least a year before that.In all honesty i would be bothered by that, just becouse someone doesn't like seeing 2 ppl of the same gender haveing sex doesn't mean that they hate gay's and lesbians. I'm sure that's not what you ment but i just felt i had to say becouse I've met allot of ppl in real life who seem to think just becouse men arn't finding that appealing that they are anti-gay.It's much easier to avoid that reaction when you know the cause. Most men are embroiled in constant competition with other men, which is oft to become violent. Most men are afraid to display womanly traits because it marks them as easy targets for other men. Women are supposed to be "pure" and beautiful. Therefore men are supposed to be "dirty" and ugly.

Thus, men tend to see other men as unclean and ugly, which gives rise to the gut reaction when they see two men kissing, as opposed to two women, or a man and a woman. Basically a concoction of influences, including the linguistically influenced concept of "polarity" in English speakers (separating like concepts into opposites) combined with "number" (Polarized concepts are ranked, to assert that one is better than the other: light, dark, strong, weak, man, woman [sic], etc.).

Ever notice how interesting it is that heterosexuals call themselves "straight"? It's a very subtle application of binaries. After all, the opposite of "straight" is "crooked", right? And crookedness has a connotation of evil and/or insanity.

So, yeah, I can't say that I blame you for having that gut reaction, as long as you can control it. I can only hope that it will go away completely, one day. What really disturbs me is when people act on that gut reaction, then rationalize it with some ******** reasoning like "protecting marriage." Even rationalizing it with the bible is ridiculous, when you observe the context. The only reason heterosexuals oppress homosexuals is because of that gut reaction.

[earsofdoom]

So, yeah, I can't say that I blame you for having that gut reaction, as long as you can control it. I can only hope that it will go away completely, one day. What really disturbs me is when people act on that gut reaction, then rationalize it with some ******** reasoning like "protecting marriage." Even rationalizing it with the bible is ridiculous, when you observe the context. The only reason heterosexuals oppress homosexuals is because of that gut reaction.

I think i might have mis-used the word "bother" sry for anyone who misunderstood, All i meant was "I don't get any enjoyment seeing it" i wouldn't be "eww thats gross" or anything i just don't find it appealing like a gay man would. if i see 2 men kissing i don't get a feeling of disgust in my gut.... i just don't enjoy it is all. basically all im saying is im neutral and don't harbor any feeling's of disgust. sry if it sounded that way I don't get a feeling in my gut that its wrong or anything.

[Animematt55]

And yes, I think that *is* a little weird. But maybe it's because of inexperience? (Don't mean to be rude at all.)
ok..how is that weird? So i don't want to see a woman's...private parts...

How about if you see two men kissing? How will you react? Will you feel bothered or disgusted by seeing two men kissing in public?
i don't want to see two guys kissing...or two girls..or a boy and girl... ok..well i don't mind seeing alittle peck or two. I am jsut not a fan of public displays of affection. I especially hate people makign out in public.

[DazzleKitty]

After reading some of this interview,i would not be suprised if Yaoi was simply outlawed.

If they were to do that, it would only be fair to ban several other types of porn, including yuri, hentai, etc.
You don't see big articles like this focusing on those things because they are 'normal' for people to like. Yaoi isn't normal in this society.

[ZoharContact]

I didn't mean to sound vindictive towards anybody on this board. Just thinking about the issue flusters me a bit, I hope you understand. What's more, measures against gay marriage passed in six out of seven states on November 7th. Arizona avoided passage by a narrow margin. I can't help but be a little miffed (I hope you all voted.).

As for all things hentai, it's my personal opinion that there's no solid reason to deny access to people of any age. I know one man whose parents were very open about it, and if anything, he's the most well adjusted guy friend I know.

Japan is probably another example showing that it isn't the media that's the problem, yet people blame it, anyway. Unfortunately, I'm not very optimistic for yaoi's continued freedom of expression in the states in the future. Concerned parental groups are notorious for coming down harder on sex than violence, and localization companies seem a lot less liable to withstand lawsuits than Rockstar Games, or similar companies.

[typhonblue]

I didn't mean to sound vindictive towards anybody on this board. Just thinking about the issue flusters me a bit, I hope you understand. What's more, measures against gay marriage passed in six out of seven states on November 7th. Arizona avoided passage by a narrow margin. I can't help but be a little miffed (I hope you all voted.)

I'm Canadian.

It's a wonder to me what Americans get their knickers in a twist over.

Gay marriage? Er... it's a non issue.

[earsofdoom]

I didn't mean to sound vindictive towards anybody on this board. Just thinking about the issue flusters me a bit, I hope you understand. What's more, measures against gay marriage passed in six out of seven states on November 7th. Arizona avoided passage by a narrow margin. I can't help but be a little miffed (I hope you all voted.).


Ah, i was wondering what you ment by "i hope you all voted" no problems in canada we already allow it. The first gay couple was married here (it was 2 girls)...... but sadly they were also the first gay couple to get a divorce :( . If your not allowed to get married where your at, and you would like to, be sure to pay canada a visit. (and free health care, yay!)

[ZoharContact]

If your not allowed to get married where your at, and you would like to, be sure to pay canada a visit. (and free health care, yay!)Yay! ^_^ (Also has no health insurance at the moment.)Gay marriage? Er... it's a non issue.I can only wish the majority of Americans agreed with you. Maybe they're just afraid that they'll have to wed gay couples in their churches. That's obviously not the case, but I suppose majority opinion tends to be slightly separated from reality.

And I can't help but seethe when I listen to "marriage protection" rhetoric. The worst part is that they try (and to an extent, they evidently succeed) to sound like reasonable people, all the while spouting the same garbage you hear from the speakers in the main square at my university.

::sigh:: But enough of that.

[Kaosgirl]

Ask them how they feel when they express finding men more attractive/beautiful/sexy then women to other people besides people they know will agree with them.


That's pretty much what I did before I posted my experience. My own socialization as a woman got a bit stunted from being born male, so I try to pick up whatever I can. This assertion of yours seemed very strange to me, given how often my female friends would babble to me about how hot so-and-so was and constantly pester me for advice on how to get him to notice her. (And yes, they thought I was straight - the 'nice guy/no threat' variety, but still straight.)

So I asked around. The answer was variations of the same thing: people expect them to find guys attractive, but giving details outside the circle of friends... well, most of them never tried that.


Also ask if they've ever seen a positive portrayal of a woman acting on her sexual desire for a man, rather then *reacting* to his pursuit.


That one I'll grant. Outside of feminist inspired literature, 'good girls' still seem to be cast in the submissive role in the media.

[typhonblue]

So I asked around. The answer was variations of the same thing: people expect them to find guys attractive, but giving details outside the circle of friends... well, most of them never tried that.

Hmm... perhaps another thought experiment would help elucidate what I'm getting at.

Imagine a boy taking an interest in "spying" on an adult woman and finding out what she has under her clothes.

Usually this senario is common in media and is played out as being perfectly normal urge. Although the boy is seen as exploiting the adult woman, sometimes.

Now imagine the reverse. A girl taking an interest in "spying" on an adult man and finding out what he has under his clothes.

I've never seen this senario in media. And the impression it gives is that the girl is somewhat freakish for wanting to see something that could "hurt" her. She needs to be protected from her own urges.

The only thing I've seen that's similar is in "Fight Club" where the main character inserts an image of his penis into a child's movie and it causes a girl to burst out in helpless sobs. Imagine the reverse for a boy?

A man's body is seen as something capable of inflicting injury (by just being viewed) on a woman or girl. (The reverse is most definately not the case.) Women who want to see it, who want to desire it as an object, rather then crush on *him* as a subject, are defined as being just a little bit odd. Like someone who enjoys being spanked or having orange peel juice squeezed into their eyes.

[Kaosgirl]

Hmm... perhaps another thought experiment would help elucidate what I'm getting at.

Imagine a boy taking an interest in "spying" on an adult woman and finding out what she has under her clothes.
<snip>
Now imagine the reverse. A girl taking an interest in "spying" on an adult man and finding out what he has under his clothes.


Hrm. I picture three scenarios.
One is a young child, too young to be considered sexual (except maybe by pedophiles,) and in this scenario it comes off as natural curiosity regardless of gender.
Move up a few years into adolescence or young adulthood, and it shifts a bit; the media portrayal I recall involving guys portrays them as laughable losers. The portrayals I recall involving women involve "I can't believe you did that" with a mix of scandal and admiration. Go to mature adults, and the guy is almost always a stalker while the girls... I can't think of any portrayals, positive or negative.

Except maybe porn, which casts her as quite satisfied with the results.
(Tho I'm guessing snuff might be an exception to that.)


I've never seen this senario in media. And the impression it gives is that the girl is somewhat freakish for wanting to see something that could "hurt" her. She needs to be protected from her own urges.


Not quite sure how you can get any impression from something you've never seen, other than the vague "we don't discuss this." But that aside...

Girls do need a bit more self control wrt their sexual urges than guys do. Unlike guys, girls get pregnant; a situation she *has* to deal with, but one that (barring judicial pressure) is something the guy has the option of just walking away from.


A man's body is seen as something capable of inflicting injury (by just being viewed) on a woman or girl. (The reverse is most definately not the case.)


I take it you don't recall all the right-wing thumping about how pornography is psychologically scarring to young men, turning them into sexual addicts? It may seem laughable now, but at the time it was deadly serious.


Women who want to see it, who want to desire it as an object, rather then crush on *him* as a subject, are defined as being just a little bit odd.


Again, that runs counter to my own experiences. What I have always seen - from both the men I was expected to emulate, and the girls I wanted to be - was the belief that girls *do* want it; they just aren't supposed to fulfill the desire without more than just 'desiring it as an object.'

Although, as I admitted before, my own experiences are somewhat hybridized.

[Mikadzuki Tatsu]

I did some research on the sexual behaviour double standard - how society reacts to a man expressing desire for a woman, vs how society reacts to a woman expressing desire for a man - and this is what I found:

At the social level, the double standard is a well-known pattern of cultural influence. It stipulates that certain activities (such as premarital or casual sex) are morally and socially acceptable for men but not for women. The sexual revolution of the late twentieth century entailed a large change in sexual behaviors, most of which must be attributed to changing cultural pressures and expectations...

Perhaps because of the mixed messages that women receive, they tend to be higher than men in erotophobia, which is the disposition to respond negatively to sexual cues.

I also found this:

A noticeable and consistent finding in nearly all measures of sexual desire is that men, on average, have a higher level of sexual motivation than women, although there are many individual exceptions. (There is more detail after that, but I'm not going to quote the details.) I believe this might explain why the media portrays so many instances of boys and young men wanting to peer up girls' skirts, but girls feeling repulsed at the idea of finding out what's under a man's clothing.

[typhonblue]

Move up a few years into adolescence or young adulthood, and it shifts a bit; the media portrayal I recall involving guys portrays them as laughable losers.

So you haven't ever seen the portrayls of 12-13 year old boys in "coming of age" stories that want to sneak a peak at an adult woman? I can think of quite a few examples (although I'd be hardpressed to remember the names) and they weren't portrayed as "laughable loosers."

(*edit* Just an hour after I typed this I saw another example of this phenomena. Bart from the Simpsons snuck into an adult theatre. Could you imagine Lisa -- even in her bad girl persona -- doing the same?)

Not quite sure how you can get any impression from something you've never seen, other than the vague "we don't discuss this." But that aside...

I don't know either. But that's the impression I get.

I take it you don't recall all the right-wing thumping about how pornography is psychologically scarring to young men, turning them into sexual addicts? It may seem laughable now, but at the time it was deadly serious.

They still do it. But the emphasis isn't on the women doing it to the men, but that women's bodies are so pleasurable for men to look at that they will become addicted if they are exposed.

Not that women's bodies are so... dangerous? That they will become psychologically scared by viewing them.

Again, that runs counter to my own experiences. What I have always seen - from both the men I was expected to emulate, and the girls I wanted to be - was the belief that girls *do* want it; they just aren't supposed to fulfill the desire without more than just 'desiring it as an object.'

That they do want to look at men as sexual objects? Or that they want to be involved in a relationship with a man?

Although, as I admitted before, my own experiences are somewhat hybridized.

I have a question, if its not rude? Do *you* desire men yourself?

[Kaosgirl]

So you haven't ever seen the portrayls of 12-13 year old boys in "coming of age" stories that want to sneak a peak at an adult woman? I can think of quite a few examples (although I'd be hardpressed to remember the names) and they weren't portrayed as "laughable loosers."

(*edit* Just an hour after I typed this I saw another example of this phenomena. Bart from the Simpsons snuck into an adult theatre. Could you imagine Lisa -- even in her bad girl persona -- doing the same?)


I see Bart as the penultimate 'laughable loser' (tho now you do have me wondering if maybe I'm inserting my own readings into the portrayals.) And yeah, I can see Lisa doing the same in the bad-girl persona... though I'll admit that outside of that phase, I have trouble picturing her as old enough to do more than play "show me yours/show you mine."

(Tho I do recall an older episode involving the statue of David, where Lisa fought to see him in all his glory...)

And I really can't think of any coming-of-age portrayals that didn't come across (at least to me) as "look at how dorky guys can be."


I have a question, if its not rude? Do *you* desire men yourself?


I'm sexually very confused. When I look at men, I see a lot of what pains me about myself, and in many I see the image of the guys who used to harass me for being a sissy in school. But underneath all that, yeah I do feel some desire. I think I still repress a fair bit of it; it's stronger under anything that weakens my inhibitions.

And I don't think the question was rude, tho I am a bit curious about whether it's your experiences or my nature that prompted you to ask if it was.

[typhonblue]

I see Bart as the penultimate 'laughable loser' (tho now you do have me wondering if maybe I'm inserting my own readings into the portrayals.)

Maybe I'm having trouble with the phrase "laughable looser". I think it's more of a "lovable goof" portrayal.


(Tho I do recall an older episode involving the statue of David, where Lisa fought to see him in all his glory...)

I think it was less purient interest on her part then a desire to make sure art remained uncensored.

And I really can't think of any coming-of-age portrayals that didn't come across (at least to me) as "look at how dorky guys can be."

I think the intent isn't to show the boys who are doing this as abnormal, rather as almost compulsive and a bit undisciplined. Sort of a "that's what boys do, haha! Aren't they cute!" (Of course the dark side of that is the pressure exerted by boys on each other to express heterosexuality as proof of their manhood.)

I think it comes back to the whole view that naked men are somehow capable of inflicting injury on a person by their very nakedness, whereas naked women *aren't*.

Wanting to view something that can injure you seems pathological, whereas wanting to view naked women who are associated with pleasure, is just seen as normal. Giving into that desire in inappropriate settings is seen as bad discipline or goofiness or even evil(in older males).

And I don't think the question was rude, tho I am a bit curious about whether it's your experiences or my nature that prompted you to ask if it was.

Hmm... I actually just wanted to know more about your viewpoint.

[Kaosgirl]

I think it comes back to the whole view that naked men are somehow capable of inflicting injury on a person by their very nakedness, whereas naked women *aren't*.


I wish I knew how we got such different messages; it would help in determining what elements of society we should be discouraging (as we both seem to agree that the message you got wasn't exactly healthy.)


Hmm... I actually just wanted to know more about your viewpoint.

It's the "if it's not rude" part I was curious about. I get the question about desiring men quite a bit, but usually not by people who are concerned it might be rude to ask.

[typhonblue]

I wish I knew how we got such different messages; it would help in determining what elements of society we should be discouraging (as we both seem to agree that the message you got wasn't exactly healthy.)

I think it's just a commonly held perception that naked men are somehow more damaging to the sensibilities then naked women.

I mean it would make no sense in Fight Club if it was a woman who put an image of her naked body on screen and made a boy burst into tears. (I might also add that the image appeared for a single frame so it was completely subconcious. The suggestion being that the girl was reacting instinctively to viewing a naked man.)

It's the "if it's not rude" part I was curious about. I get the question about desiring men quite a bit, but usually not by people who are concerned it might be rude to ask.

It might be a Canadian thing. I figure its rude to inquire about personal issues like that.

[Kaosgirl]

I think it's just a commonly held perception that naked men are somehow more damaging to the sensibilities then naked women.


Maybe. But even then, when it comes to men only one part is really 'off limits' - you can show everything else and it doesn't seem to count as a naked man. But if a woman flashes one nipple outside of an R rated film, it's a huge uproar.


It might be a Canadian thing. I figure its rude to inquire about personal issues like that.

Also Canadian, but I think I might be more in touch with 'net culture' than home culture these days.

[Animematt55]

Maybe. But even then, when it comes to men only one part is really 'off limits' - you can show everything else and it doesn't seem to count as a naked man. But if a woman flashes one nipple outside of an R rated film, it's a huge uproar.



Well i dont know any straight women that actually like seeing a man's penis......they like everything else, except that part. If you actually watch television, you see tons of shirtless guys, and muscular guys. So don't tell me they don't show stuff for women on TV> They even have a "guys gone wild" series now.

[Mikadzuki Tatsu]

Well i dont know any straight women that actually like seeing a man's penis......they like everything else, except that part. If you actually watch television, you see tons of shirtless guys, and muscular guys. So don't tell me they don't show stuff for women on TV> They even have a "guys gone wild" series now.
I think Kaosgirl was referring to the fact that you do see tons of shirtless men on television, and no one thinks twice of it. From what I know, seeing men on TV in Speedos doesn't seem to considered as risque as seeing women on TV in skimpy bikinis.

[April-san]

Sorry. Little side-note.

This discussion got me thinking about my classical art class I took in College (about a hundred years ago). Throughout history, there has been thousands of female nudes, but only a handful of male nudes. The most famous male nude, as mentioned earlier, is the statue of David by Michaelangelo, a homosexual man.

So, if there were more classical female artists, would there have been more male nudes? Or is Yaoi the woman's art revolution? :)

[Victory]

Throughout history, there has been thousands of female nudes, but only a handful of male nudes.? give more info please... I always thought greek and roman civilizations had tons of naked dudes

[April-san]

? give more info please... I always thought greek and roman civilizations had tons of naked dudes

Oops. I acutally ment the renaissance and mannerism periods (after the dark 1300s). This is after Christianity beliefs took hold (homosexuality is bad, women are just objects, etc).

Greek and Roman had a totally different belief system and, therefore, leading to different types of art.

Come on. Who hasn't picked up a history of art book or watched a national geographic tv show (you know which ones I mean) just for the informational content.

[Kaosgirl]

Well i dont know any straight women that actually like seeing a man's penis......they like everything else, except that part.


Interesting... support for Typhon's assertion.
(Trust me: they *do.* And the only reason I can think of that they wouldn't admit it to you is either shame, as Typhon asserts, or that they simply don't want you to know.)


If you actually watch television, you see tons of shirtless guys, and muscular guys. So don't tell me they don't show stuff for women on TV.

Sorta my point, though. Shirtless guy = harmless eye candy. Shirtless woman = mature content (with or without bra.)

[Xx0t0rixX]

pft if they can't buy them they'll steal them XD It's not that hard they just take out the little bar and shove it in your coat or bag and off you go. Thats why I never wanna work in a store :V

[Animematt55]

pft if they can't buy them they'll steal them XD It's not that hard they just take out the little bar and shove it in your coat or bag and off you go. Thats why I never wanna work in a store :V

i worked at media play., and the number 2 thing that was stolen, after rap CDS, was hentai. A good number of them Yaoi ones, but the majority regular hentai.