Sex and Evangelion

[Hekym]

Sorry. It's been a few weeks in the making.

Watching EVA and bumming around this forum gave me the idea that the Japanese have a very different grasp on sex and the philosophies thereof than Americans do. Evidently; if Anno was American and published something as sexually oriented as EVA he would be in a mental institution right now. I think that the approach to sex taken here was the lock to Evangelion, and the key was Ritsuko and to an extent, Misato.

Let's start with the ultimate point of Evangelion. This seems to be that everyone everywhere has a lonely space in their soul that wants to be filled with the understanding of fellow humans. Instrumentality seems to coin this idea, filling everyone’s soul with everyone else’s and bringing everyone together.

So take the images of sex throughout Instrumentality. And keep in mind that Anno specifically chose 14 year olds, probably because of their budding interest in sexual activities. The image of Shinji and Rei having sex in Instrumentality convinced me of this theory:

The Japanese see sex as a way to "cross the ocean" (Kaji's speech) not only between men and women, but between two humans, filling that void. Sex connects two humans together for a short time, giving them an understanding of each other. For example, in the scene with Shinji and Rei, there was literally no boundary between their bodies. When Shinji rejected it, he took Rei's hand, cementing their individuality and separating their bodies. Along the same lines, Misato’s primary mental anguish seems to stem from an insecure sexuality. She seeks the sensation of having a complete soul, so she has sex often (at least with Kaji) and encounters other sexual partners- but is saddened and hurt when they “leave her behind” as the separation and loneliness within her soul becomes apparent once more.

Instrumentality reinforces this principle: There are many, many shots involving vagina like designs and phallic like articles. Adam and Lilith were combined. The sexual imagery is clearly a reference to the combining of souls that will take place in Instrumentality.

However, the suggestion seems to be that sex is not the primary method to achieving the underlying desire of being complete, but merely an easily accessible way to achieve it. The effects of sex in combining two souls seem to be misunderstood by many of the characters. This ease of access would explain the character’s monologues on sex and the declared differences between men and women, always reaching the idea that they are completely different and have odd interactions (Ritsuko and Kaji). However, this is probably a result of confusion and anguish on the behalf of the soul, not the body. Both Loving and strained relations and seen between sexes as well (Misato and Ritsuko (strained), Maya to Ritsuko (loving/adoring), Hikari and Asuka (explores the boundaries and similarities between their two souls).

I sincerely doubt that Anno intends to suggest that sex and sexual differences are the reason for the pain within human souls. All the characters, male and female, exhibit similarly confused emotions, incredibly strong devotion to others and basic reactions to angels and attacks. They all scream the same way; they all look content the same way. There is no distinction between male and female souls in the Final Angel’s hands.

Thus, sex, gender and embellishing their special properties are not Anno’s focus. Instead, sex is used as a way to reach the primary goal of a connection between two souls. If this is the case, there must be another way in which this occurs. And there is. For example, Gendo assumes that Yui knows everything about him in 3I, and Yui informs Gendo of all her plans. When shown as happy, they are in a single unit. More prominently, however, we have the Elecktra-not-so-Elecktra complexes to examine.

Misato went through a horrible, traumatic experience in 2I. This forged an image of her father within her that became very important and deeply ingrained. This is the source of the confusion in her sexuality: In seeking the connection to others, she first tries to connect with her father, the closest person to her soul. This obviously fails, and she achieves the connection through a different man. Kaji came along and the two pathways became ridiculously confuzzed. We also have Ritsuko to examine. Ritsuko grew up around two people: her mother and Gendo. Remember the picture on her computer before the Rei incident? She viewed Gendo as a father figure. She hated her mother, yet she corresponded all the time. Why? She is a super genius involved and isolated in a secret project. When her mother died, she turned to her father to fill the void. Having seen sex as the primary way of fostering a connection by her mother, she used this method first…bit of a tragic figure here.

Finally, there’s Asuka Langley. Equally confused about sex and seeking to explore the possibility of connecting by it, Asuka follows example, hooking onto Kaji and learning from Misato in Instrumentality. This is not only because there a rift in her soul, but because the closest soul to hers way torn away- Kyoko. Seeking to be surrounded by others and involved with someone is a function of this loneliness.

In short, the Japanese see sex a way to connect two people. Anno adapted this to be a way to temporarily connect souls and foster understanding. Instrumentality is essentially a giant orgy. Yet sex is not the only method with which to join souls: one can to it by having someone extremely close to you with whom you feel connected, or by simply exploring the boundaries between the souls.

Open season for Debate.

[OMF]

Sex and sexuality in Evangelion is used in two ways. It is used as a symbol of connection and harmonisation between people; Misato and Kaji's relationship, The scenes in instrumentality, and to a lesser degree Ritsuko and Gendou. However, it is also used as a source of discord and hurt between people; Shinji and Asuak are the primary example here, but so are the breakdowns of relationships between Dr Akagi and Gendou, Ritsuko and Gendou, and of course Shinji and Misato. We more often see the destructive and hurtful effects of sexuality in Evangelion, rather than its positive qualities.

Sex in Evangelion is really just one of the aspects of human communication examined in the show. Communication is often difficult, and can be hurtful, but to shut oneself off is even more destructive is the message of the show. With regard to sex, the show message seems to be that in and of itself, sex will not function as a quick fix for loneliness, and to truely connect, people have to really open up to others emotionally.

By the way, you don't seem to have discussed things like Shinji's behaviour in the hospital room and Asuka's peroid pains in the above. These would be other examples of the hurtful effects of sexuality. Some of the positve aspects of sexuality are the love and procreation aspects, shown in the rather chastely presented relationship between Yui and Gendou, though obviously it wasn't as chaste as all that.

[Mr. Tines]

I'm not sure I would generalise to "The Japanese see..." Anno was one of a bunch of otaku, with the usual otaku problems about (lack of) social contact with women.

As I've said before now, NGE was he art-therapy.

[NAveryW]

Hekym, I neither agree or disagree with your post at the moment, but I will say that the "Instrumentality as a giant orgy" thing could be supported by the scene at the very end of the Komm Susser Tod sequence, but I do generally interpret it differently.

Interestingly, something that's probably well-known, but that I just thought of: the "Do you want to be of one mind, body and soul?" thing could refer to either sex or to Instrumentality.

[Hekym]

I'm not sure I would generalise to "The Japanese see..." Anno was one of a bunch of otaku, with the usual otaku problems about (lack of) social contact with women.

As I've said before now, NGE was he art-therapy.


Well, I could say for example that the opinion of sex as being negative in the United States originated in Ancient Jewish communities, was spread by Catholic church, was revived in the Protestant Reformation and was raised again with the development of fundamentalist Protestant religions. Thus, given the common Judeo-Christian model in this country, our view of of sex will be one of obscenity and desecration, while other cultures without a Judeo Chrisitan model will have a remarkably different outlook.

Some Generalizations are ok to make. I want to know the source for this visible Japanese tradition.

[NAveryW]

Well, I could say for example that the opinion of sex as being negative in the United States originated in Ancient Jewish communities, was spread by Catholic church, was revived in the Protestant Reformation and was raised again with the development of fundamentalist Protestant religions. Thus, given the common Judeo-Christian model in this country, our view of of sex will be one of obscenity and desecration, while other cultures without a Judeo Chrisitan model will have a remarkably different outlook.

Some Generalizations are ok to make. I want to know the source for this visible Japanese tradition.
Keep in mind that there are at least a few "negative" connotations about sex in Japan, considering the censorship they require, even to pornography.

[HeWhoPostsStuff]

Somehow it didn't seem right to let this thread go any longer without linking this image (http://www.evacommentary.org/images_fanart/shinjis-great-rampage_001e.jpg) in here someplace.

[Hekym]

By the way, you don't seem to have discussed things like Shinji's behaviour in the hospital room and Asuka's peroid pains in the above. These would be other examples of the hurtful effects of sexuality. Some of the positve aspects of sexuality are the love and procreation aspects, shown in the rather chastely presented relationship between Yui and Gendou, though obviously it wasn't as chaste as all that.

Sex is represented in undue proportion in NGE, leading me to assume that it is seen as the most effective vehicle with which to achieve at least the illusion of two souls being united.

I'd never really thought of the menstruation cycle in this way. From a biological point of view, actual menstruation is more of a maintenance routine than something that really activates sexual desire. In my experience, it's more of a deterrent. But since you said that, it does seem to shed light on the viewpoint that women are supposedly constantly sexually receptive, while men are only sporadically so. (Women's menstrual cycle is constant, erections are random. I've always perceived it as the other way around, but depicting women as always lustful is a common feature in historically patriarchal societies. Lust does not equate the urge to connect souls.) Strangely enough, however, I don’t think that Anno chose to use this interpretation. Between the sexuality (and love) among the female characters and the rampant displays of sexuality amongst the males (Kaji, Gendo's actions, Shinij's hand), it seems like Anno tries his best to neutralize the perception that women are somehow more lustful than men because of their biology, or the other way around. So the scene wit Asuka’s cramps is more to affirm the presence of her sexuality inn conjunction with suggesting misdirected sexuality than anything else.

As for Shinji's masturbation sequence, I think it's just a part of the Shinij/ Asuka complex that is developed throughout EoE. Keep in mind that Shinji, in theory, has taken damage to his perception of how to connect human souls as a result of his loss of Yui. Shinji and Asuka are equals, according to Anno, so their original interaction as well as the combination of their souls in Instrumentality is particularly awkward and strewn with misdirected sexuality, aggression and finally understanding (stroking Shinji's cheek).

One last thing: the scene with Misato and Shinji in EoE seems to reinforce this theory. Misato's only remaining reflex and understanding (after X amount of mental anguish) about how to join souls is sexual activity- thus she kisses Shinji. It's not so much a bad or lustful action as much as an honest one. This is the only way I've been able to define this action. She’s trying to close the divide between herself and someone she loves before she dies.

[Reichu]

Randomness: The menstrual cycle is constant, but women are only sexually receptive for a short time during each cycle, the concealed ovulation. ("Concealed" because human females apparently don't enter estrus or anything.) Men are capable of doing their half of the reproduction gig at any time, provided they can "get it up and get off".

In terms of lustfulness, or whathaveyou... Well, I'm not sure. Male/female sexuality is still in the process of being understood (relatively speaking). There are horny men and horny women in troves, although it kinda seems like men have the monopoly on "overall horniness" when it comes down to it.

Speaking of displays of sexuality, don't forget about Kensuke and Toji fawning over Misato. ;)

[Mr. Tines]

women are only sexually receptive for a short time during each cycle, the concealed ovulation.

You have that back to front - human females are almost continually sexually receptive, and not just around ovulation as in most mammalian species. That seems to be related to the fact that oestrus is concealed (no chimp-like "showing pink").

Getting back to topic, Misato's week-long session would not be plausible in a species that was only sexually receptive around oestrus.

[Reichu]

I had my wording mangled up -- I meant "receptive for impregnation", not "randy, baby, yeah!" http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/sweatdroplaugh.gif

[Hekym]

You have that back to front - human females are almost continually sexually receptive, and not just around ovulation as in most mammalian species. That seems to be related to the fact that oestrus is concealed (no chimp-like "showing pink").

Getting back to topic, Misato's week-long session would not be plausible in a species that was only sexually receptive around oestrus.
Actually, the chances of women becoming pregnant and remaining pregnant are slim when their sex drive isn't up, and their sex drive is only up during certain phases of ovulation and immediately before menstruation. We don't turn pink, but the body focuses its resources on increasing the production levels of mucous and hormones that improves the likelihood that women will actually copulate successfully while they're more sexually receptive. But you can see where the misconception comes from.

I didn't discuss Touji and Kensuke fawning over Misato, no. Nor did I discuss them fawning over the other girls, or the other guys fawning over Misato. It's all hormonal, and usually displayed as a social activity. However, as far as Touji and Kensuke go, it could be an admiration complex or the only approach to understanding a woman that they know. But I'd bet it's mostly hormonal.

Where his interactions with Asuka were a control for his attempts to foster a connection between souls, his interactions with Rei were the ultimate attempts to do so. She looks just like his mother, so he makes his most serious approaches from that regard first. When it becomes clear that she's not, he becomes sexually confused about her too (really goes off the deep end). Same rule, really, for all three: Misato, Rei and Asuka, but at different levels for each. Hence the "Would you like to join with me? Would you like to become one with me?" scene of flying bosoms- Japanese see sex as the most obvious way to connect two humans of separate gender. Anno throws out the gender and replaces "humans" with souls.

This theory would also explain the reason for choosing pilots that have gone through the pain of losing a mother. They would be more receptive to new ways of joining souls and actively explore them, fostering their connections with the souls in the Evangelions.

[Logan Payne]

Somehow it didn't seem right to let this thread go any longer without linking this image (http://www.evacommentary.org/images_fanart/shinjis-great-rampage_001e.jpg) in here someplace.


^_^ Well after the opening scenes in EoE I really thought that's all his id was crying out for.

[Ark]

Well, I could say for example that the opinion of sex as being negative in the United States originated in Ancient Jewish communities, was spread by Catholic church, was revived in the Protestant Reformation and was raised again with the development of fundamentalist Protestant religions. Thus, given the common Judeo-Christian model in this country, our view of of sex will be one of obscenity and desecration, while other cultures without a Judeo Chrisitan model will have a remarkably different outlook.

Some Generalizations are ok to make. I want to know the source for this visible Japanese tradition.

Sex is looked down upon in most historical middle-eastern religions to some degree and that includes christianity as well as pre-christian middle eastern religions.

[OMF]

Actually, the chances of women becoming pregnant and remaining pregnant are slim when their sex drive isn't up, and their sex drive is only up during certain phases of ovulation and immediately before menstruation. I think you might be confusing correlation with causation there.

It's all hormonal, and usually displayed as a social activity. However, as far as Touji and Kensuke go, it could be an admiration complex or the only approach to understanding a woman that they know. But I'd bet it's mostly hormonal.But then, how does one explain Shinji?


This theory would also explain the reason for choosing pilots that have gone through the pain of losing a mother. They would be more receptive to new ways of joining souls and actively explore them, fostering their connections with the souls in the Evangelions.
I think it has more to do with putting the mothers in the Evas rather than the pilots freudian demensias.

[JFaulkner]

So take the images of sex throughout Instrumentality. And keep in mind that Anno specifically chose 14 year olds, probably because of their budding interest in sexual activities. The image of Shinji and Rei having sex in Instrumentality convinced me of this theory:

Shinji and Rei were not having sex - there was no rhythmic movement and no sense of sexual arousement in either. This points to the scene being symbolic, rather than being meant to be taken literally.

Instrumentality reinforces this principle: There are many, many shots involving vagina like designs and phallic like articles. Adam and Lilith were combined. The sexual imagery is clearly a reference to the combining of souls that will take place in Instrumentality.
I agree that the imagery is an allusion to the "combining of souls." But I see the "combining of souls" concept to be much more than physical sex and its results. Therefore, although sexual imagery is used, they do not represent just physical sex. It is more a "spiritual" union. There is a need to distinguish what physical sex and this "spiritual" union entails. If one wishes to show they are the same, then one needs to try and show that the physical sex act would entail similar circumstances and effects to the "spiritual" union. For me, the "spiritual" union involves the combination of all the facets of the human mind, not just one - the sexual aspect. Furthermore one of the necessary circumstances of the "spiritual" union include the loss of a will to live on as an individual - this is not necessary for physical sex to occur (where individuality can be retained throughout in terms of both having independent thoughts, even though both are joined physically).

Sex connects two humans together for a short time, giving them an understanding of each other.
Instead, sex is used as a way to reach the primary goal of a connection between two souls.
Where is this shown in the anime? What do you mean by "connection"? If you mean by connection that two human beings gain a greater understanding of each other, than physical sex is not shown to do this in the anime - e.g. When Misato and Kaji had sex, they were not shown to turn into L.C.L. due to their AT Fields temporarily merging - the scene itself was not shown to give either an increased understanding of each other (e.g. Misato still did not realize that one of the reasons she had a relationship with Kaji was that he reminded her of her father, something which was only realized during Instrumentality, where the "spiritual" union of all souls takes place), rather, all it seemed to show was physical+mental stimulation.

Misato went through a horrible, traumatic experience in 2I. This forged an image of her father within her that became very important and deeply ingrained. This is the source of the confusion in her sexuality: In seeking the connection to others, she first tries to connect with her father, the closest person to her soul. This obviously fails, and she achieves the connection through a different man. Kaji came along and the two pathways became ridiculously confuzzed.
Misato's mental anguish ultimately stemmed from her inability to accept the two sides (positive and negative) of her father. This may have been played out in a sexual relationship with Kaji, but the root is not sexual. Her father is not the closest person to her soul, rather, her father was someone who she wanted to understand more ("get closer to") but could not due to her inability to face up to the different sides of her father. I agree that she wanted to get closer to her father through Kaji.

In short, the Japanese see sex a way to connect two people. Anno adapted this to be a way to temporarily connect souls and foster understanding. Instrumentality is essentially a giant orgy. Yet sex is not the only method with which to join souls: one can to it by having someone extremely close to you with whom you feel connected, or by simply exploring the boundaries between the souls.
The idea of sex connecting people is not just confined to the Japanese - e.g. it is in some ways represented in Christianity. Also, as mentioned above, I have argued that physical sex is not shown to be a temporary way to "connect" souls in the sense of a "spiritual" union. It may "connect" in other ways such as some sort of physical+mental stimulation, but this is a different type of "connect," which is not the solution to Shinji's, or Asuka's, fundamental problem of understanding themselves and others better in a holistic way.

I totally disagree with Instrumentality being just an orgy. For example in the TV series ending, the characters were interrogating themselves over many aspects, not just sex. Shinji grappled with themes like hating himself and his perspective of others and the world. Also, when Asuka was invaded by an Angel, it was explicitly shown how she was forced to confront the way she "saw" herself. In these situations, physical sex does not have a large part to play, as a possible "solution" (sex does not "connect" in a way which would allow these problems to be resolved).

Sex is represented in undue proportion in NGE, leading me to assume that it is seen as the most effective vehicle with which to achieve at least the illusion of two souls being united.
The two examples you mentioned, namely Shinji masturbating and Misato kissing Shinji, are examples where sexual instinct has taken over in a psychologically impaired mind. However, I would not cite these two actions as representing a genuine path towards "two souls being united" (what I referred to as a "spiritual" union) - they were more desperate acts induced by a collapse of conscious, rational thinking - the "spiritual" union involves a merge of, and allows a thorough examination of, the psychic realities which we try to hide from ourselves and each other, and this is simply not represented by Shinji masturbating or Misato kissing Shinji.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The point I am making is that sex is an aspect of Evangelion, but is not the only one, and is not the overriding one (no matter how much fan service Misato wants to give). Sexual symbols (e.g. Rei on top of Shinji) used in Evangelion point towards a more holistic conception than physical sex. Physical sex does not offer a route towards confronting ourselves with respect to what we hide from ourselves, how we conceive ourselves and others, and how to get a greater heart-felt acceptance of the multitude of factors playing out in our minds, and how this translates into our perceptions, actions and who we are. Therefore, it does not allow the allegorical merging of our souls, as portrayed in Evangelion, which does offer that route by virtue of precipitating a merge of all aspects of everyone's souls, not just the sexual aspect.

[Reichu]

(e.g. Misato still did not realize that one of the reasons she had a relationship with Kaji was that he reminded her of her father, something which was only realized during Instrumentality, where the "spiritual" union of all souls takes place)
Nitpick:
MISATO:
I'm sorry that I insisted on breaking up with you.
When I said I fell in love with somebody else,
that was a lie. Did you know?

KAJI:
No.

MISATO:
It's just that I realized you were like my father.
That I wanted a man like my father...
When I realized that, I was afraid. I was desperately afraid.
Of being with you, Kaji... Of being a woman...
I was afraid of everything.
I hated my father, but fell in love with someone just like him.
I chose Nerv, intending to make a clean break with the past.
But even that was an organization that Father used to belong to.
In the end, I've been fooling myself by taking revenge against the Angels.

<post-quote filler text>

[JFaulkner]

Good... how about we change that section from

"the scene itself was not shown to give either an increased understanding of each other (e.g. Misato still did not realize that one of the reasons she had a relationship with Kaji was that he reminded her of her father, something which was only realized during Instrumentality, where the "spiritual" union of all souls takes place)"

to

"the scene itself was not shown to give either an increased understanding of each other, (e.g. Misato did not confront the underyling reasons for her relationship with Kaji, something which did happen during Instrumentality, where the "spiritual" union of all souls takes place)"

[Ornette]

Where is this shown in the anime? What do you mean by "connection"? If you mean by connection that two human beings gain a greater understanding of each other, than physical sex is not shown to do this in the anime - e.g. When Misato and Kaji had sex, they were not shown to turn into L.C.L. due to their AT Fields temporarily merging - the scene itself was not shown to give either an increased understanding of each other (e.g. Misato still did not realize that one of the reasons she had a relationship with Kaji was that he reminded her of her father, something which was only realized during Instrumentality, where the "spiritual" union of all souls takes place), rather, all it seemed to show was physical+mental stimulation.

Perhaps he was referring to:
REI (OFF):
Do you love me?

ASUKA (OFF):
Hey, you wanna kiss?

MISATO (OFF):
Why don't you become one with me?

REI (OFF):
Who are you?

ASUKA (OFF):
Loneliness?

VOICES:
If you become one both in mind and body,
it's a very, very comforting feeling.
Pleasure... Sky of reality... Cruel strangers...
Do you want me?
Do you love me?
Do you love me?
Strange bit, but you can hear it over the "FMTTM" instrumental

MISATO:
I am nice to you.
Tell me, Shinji, do you want to become one with me?
To be of one mind and body?
It's a very, very comforting feeling.
It's okay, you know. I'm okay whenever you are.

ASUKA:
Hey, stupid Shinji, don't you want to become one with me?
To be of one mind and body?
Because it's a very, very comforting feeling.
You don't hear me say this every day.
Come over here already.

REI:
Ikari, do you want to become one with me?
To be of one mind and body?
It's a very, very comforting feeling.
Ikari?
If they're not talking about sex here, what are they talking about?

REI:
Who's there?
Me?
The me inside the Eva.
No, I can sense that there's someone other than me.
Who are you?
An Angel? The person that we call an Angel?

REI VOICE:
Won't you become one with me?

REI:
No. I am me. I am not you.

REI VOICE:
I see, but it's no use. It's too late now.
I'll share what's in my heart with you.
I'll share this feeling with you.
Doesn't it hurt? See?
Doesn't your heart ache?
During Rei's confrontation with Armi. Does this imply that what's going on in this confrontation is somewhat sexual? Or does sex have nothing to do with any of these 3 instances?

[JFaulkner]

Perhaps he was referring to:

REI (OFF):
Do you love me?

ASUKA (OFF):
Hey, you wanna kiss?

MISATO (OFF):
Why don't you become one with me?

REI (OFF):
Who are you?

ASUKA (OFF):
Loneliness?

VOICES:
If you become one both in mind and body,
it's a very, very comforting feeling.
Pleasure... Sky of reality... Cruel strangers...
Do you want me?
Do you love me?
Do you love me?
It looks possible that there may be a sexual aspect here (I am not denying that sexuality is present in Evangelion), but other aspects are also mentioned e.g. loneliness. Love is not a synonym for "have sexual feelings for". It is said that it is a comforting feeling to become one in both mind and body. Physical sex, as I have pointed out in the previous post, does not result in a total union of all aspects of the mind.

Perhaps he was referring to:
MISATO:
I am nice to you.
Tell me, Shinji, do you want to become one with me?
To be of one mind and body?
It's a very, very comforting feeling.
It's okay, you know. I'm okay whenever you are.

ASUKA:
Hey, stupid Shinji, don't you want to become one with me?
To be of one mind and body?
Because it's a very, very comforting feeling.
You don't hear me say this every day.
Come over here already.

REI:
Ikari, do you want to become one with me?
To be of one mind and body?
It's a very, very comforting feeling.
Ikari?
Whether to interpret this scene as purely sexual hinges on what "become one with me" means, and even if this particular scene is predominantly sexual, this does not imply the whole Instrumentality concept is purely sexual. Perhaps Shinji here was grappling with his sexual side, or he is still unaware of the totality of his mental processes, such that he only sees Misato, Asuka and Rei as somehow inviting him on sexually, in this particular scene. This in no way implies that, ultimately, all Shinji wanted was sex (e.g. EoE, he said "be nice to me," despite Asuka's superficial sexual advances). A more detailed analysis is required to see how this scene relates to the mental process of Shinji - e.g. if this scene is sexual, then is it just a phase which Shinji passes through, or one aspect of his mind, rather than this being an indelible printing of the entire thought processes of Shinji as fundamentally sexual? Examining how the scenes are linked is required (the big picture), because one can e.g. easily cite the strangling scene and say, hey, you know what, this shows that Instrumentality is ultimately all about power and aggression and we should all view Instrumentality from an Adlerian viewpoint.

Originally Posted by ep23 plat
REI:
Who's there?
Me?
The me inside the Eva.
No, I can sense that there's someone other than me.
Who are you?
An Angel? The person that we call an Angel?

REI VOICE:
Won't you become one with me?

REI:
No. I am me. I am not you.

REI VOICE:
I see, but it's no use. It's too late now.
I'll share what's in my heart with you.
I'll share this feeling with you.
Doesn't it hurt? See?
Doesn't your heart ache?
The scene between Rei and Armisael is, I would argue, predominantly non-sexual. For example, what you have quoted above does not really allude to sex. In fact, in the discussion between them, it becomes clear that the "become one" concept is more to do with alleviating loneliness, and sharing emotions and minds to try and reduce pain and sadness associated with the individual existence. Sex on its own does not do this, as I have tried to show in my last post.

This also shows that interpreting "become one" as purely sexual is inadequate.

[Ornette]

Of course they're not talking about simply the physical aspect of sex. I'm not saying I disagree with you, just thought I'd suggest an answer to your question:
Instead, sex is used as a way to reach the primary goal of a connection between two souls.
Where is this shown in the anime? What do you mean by "connection"?
That sex (becoming one) can be a connection between 2 souls. Not saying I agree with all of Hekym's interpretations, but I think I understand what he's trying to say, thus my post.

As for the last bit. The quote from ep23 is pretty extensive, and I agree that entire sequence, starting from the black screen to the water drop, doesn't have anything to do with sex, with the exception of the mention of "becoming one". But meanwhile, in the real world:
http://www.animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5509807&postcount=47
http://www.animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5666662&postcount=55
It is predominantly sexual.

In fact, in the discussion between them, it becomes clear that the "become one" concept is more to do with alleviating loneliness, and sharing emotions and minds to try and reduce pain and sadness associated with the individual existence. Sex on its own does not do this, as I have tried to show in my last post.
I was never under the impression that anyone had said that sex on its own does this, sans in-thread digression.

[JFaulkner]

That sex (becoming one) can be a connection between 2 souls. Not saying I agree with all of Hekym's interpretations, but I think I understand what he's trying to say, thus my post.

I was never under the impression that anyone had said that sex on its own does this [alleviate loneliness, allows the sharing of emotions and minds to try and reduce pain and sadness associated with the individual existence]
I agree with some of the points raised by Hekym. However, it seemed to me that the main argument was that sex can achieve the same type of connection (the same type of "joining of souls") as Instrumentality can (i.e. it too can alleviate loneliness, allows the sharing of emotions etc.), e.g.:

The Japanese see sex as a way to "cross the ocean" (Kaji's speech) not only between men and women, but between two humans, filling that void. Sex connects two humans together for a short time, giving them an understanding of each other .... Instrumentality reinforces this principle: There are many, many shots involving vagina like designs and phallic like articles.
However, the suggestion seems to be that sex is not the primary method to achieving the underlying desire of being complete, but merely an easily accessible way to achieve it.


In short, the Japanese see sex a way to connect two people. Anno adapted this to be a way to temporarily connect souls and foster understanding.
[i.e. it is argued that Anno showed through Evangelion that sex temporarily connects souls, and furthermore encourages understanding]

Instrumentality is essentially a giant orgy.
[i.e. it is argued Instrumentality can be equated to a sexual process; [i]essentially an orgy - sex has the same effects as Instrumentality]

Yet sex is not the only method with which to join souls: one can to it by having someone extremely close to you with whom you feel connected, or by simply exploring the boundaries between the souls.


What I tried to show was that the act of having sex is [i]not the same as Instrumentality, which is a more holistic concept having sex only as one of its aspects. This, I argue, was evident from the anime. The concept of "joining souls" is different for sex and Instrumentality, so it is invalid to just equate the two as being essentially the same. To be crude, when someone is struggling to accept the different aspects of him or herself, and that of others, having sex alone is never going to resolve this problem (albeit it may take attention off it temporarily - but then so can e.g. taking drugs). This is because sex does not allow etc. etc. what I posted.

If I have misinterpreted Hekym, and he meant "sex" in a different sense, then I wait for him to put me out of my misery. However, if "sex" is taken to be symbolic of a more holistic concept, then sex per se does not equate to Instrumentality, but the thing being symbolized - this requires careful analysis.



As for the last bit. The quote from ep23 is pretty extensive, and I agree that entire sequence, starting from the black screen to the water drop, doesn't have anything to do with sex, with the exception of the mention of "becoming one". But meanwhile, in the real world:
http://www.animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5509807&postcount=47
http://www.animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5666662&postcount=55
It is predominantly sexual.
What is predominantly sexual? Do you mean the imagery or the underlying meaning? I agree that some scenes literally can be interpreted sexually (but the underlying meaning is not predominantly sexual). Shamshiel looks like a cross between a giant [male genital] and a spermatozooan, for heaven's sake! However, as I have mentioned in the other thread (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5951764#post5951764), I advocate linking these events in Evangelion to the human psyche. So what do these sexual images all mean in relation to the whole Complementation/Individuality dichotomy? To wit, how to make sense of all these sexual images such that they have meaning for us, taking into account that the overall fundamental theme of the show is not Shinji deliberating over who to unleash his sexual frustration upon, but is how Shinji managed to justify his individual existence of which sexuality is only a subset? Why does Shamshiel look like that? Why did Rei sit on Shinji, with both of them naked? It all seems to point just to sex, with no meaning with respect to retaining individuality!! So to battle the breakdown of the mind due to the realization of how inadequate one's present mindset is, all one has to do is have sex!! But no, and this is the point of introducing a Jungian framework, which takes these apparently purely sexual images and explains the underlying meaning they have with respect to the mental processes in the mind which do not only pertain to sexuality (these images are rendered a symbolic meaning). Sexual imagery like incest and phallic symbols can be rendered a meaning which is pertinent to retaining individuality. We can then relate all this sexual imagery to the overarching theme of the show, and to ourselves. The point of this is not to erase all traces of sexuality, but to see sexuality in its place in the overall picture. Now I would not expect anyone to believe that a Jungian framework can do this just because I said so, which is why I am working on that essay, just to put this matter to rest.

[Ornette]

What is predominantly sexual? Do you mean the imagery?
I mean what is going on between Armisael and Eva-00, in the real world (not the world inside the mind where that quote came from). Afterwards, in the NPC, it appears that Eva-00 "births" something similar to all the previous angels.

[Reichu]

I mean what is going on between Armisael and Eva-00, in the real world (not the world inside the mind where that quote came from). Afterwards, in the NPC, it appears that Eva-00 "births" something similar to all the previous angels.
The physical aspect of the encounter teems with sexual and reproductive imagery: Armisael's point of contact evokes the image of an umbilical cord; EVA-00's (and, vicariously, Rei's) response to the biofusion is... well, you know; the Angel-conglomeration springs from the region where the entry plug is inserted (birth from mock-vagina, more or less); the core breaks open and swells into a mass that evokes pregnancy imagery (and core = symbolic womb); etc. (Kind of weird how both the 'birth' and the 'pregnant belly' retreat back into her body.) EVA-01's response to the biofusion implies eroticism, as well.

[JFaulkner]

The physical aspect of the encounter teems with sexual and reproductive imagery: Armisael's point of contact evokes the image of an umbilical cord; EVA-00's (and, vicariously, Rei's) response to the biofusion is... well, you know; the Angel-conglomeration springs from the region where the entry plug is inserted (birth from mock-vagina, more or less); the core breaks open and swells into a mass that evokes pregnancy imagery (and core = symbolic womb); etc. (Kind of weird how both the 'birth' and the 'pregnant belly' retreat back into her body.) EVA-01's response to the biofusion implies eroticism, as well.
I think there is a need to consider the symbolic meaning further. For example, the core may symbolize a womb, but this womb is further symbolizing something else. The entry plug may be like a mock-vagina, but this mock-vagina may very well symbolize something else, given that the fundamental theme of the show is not about Shinji trying to achieve some sort of sexual abreaction. "Pregnancy", "Womb", "Rebirth", "Vagina" - all these can be rendered a symbolic meaning which, although incorporating the sexual aspect, also includes the other aspects of the mind, and do not push them out into far off oblivion. I do not think this is special pleading, because this type of symbolic rendition gives a meaning which fits in so well with the fundamental theme of the show, and is prevalent not only for Jung, but for various groups throughout history. There are so many examples of myths replete with sexual imagery, which have an underlying spiritual message. If one is insisting on taking the entry plug to mean a vagina or Rei's response as erotic, then what on earth does one think Anno is trying to portray by using a giant vagina or by Rei getting sexually aroused by an Angel? Also, given that both Rei and the Angel are "divine" in some sense with the latter decidedly inhuman in form, why just interpret this on the level of human sexual arousement, and cite this as indicative of the scene being erotic (or "predominantly sexual") in the normal human sense? The biofusion results in an event reminisicent of pregnancy. OK great, but this pregnancy was due to an Angel, an Evangelion and Rei (a personified "deity"). Why interpret this pregnancy as having some sort of correlation with a human pregnancy, which is due to physical sex between two human beings? Why ignore the fact that the Angel is inhuman in form, the Evangelion is a biomecha and Rei has the body of Yui (Shinji's mother) and the soul of Lillith (a "life source")? Taking these factors into account, it easily makes as much sense, if not more, to interpret this "pregancy" in a more symbolic way which is not synonymous with a human pregnancy (i.e. the event is not predominantly sexual in the human sense), and in a way which can relate it to the overall plot of Shinji achieving individuality.

We need to bear in mind that the overarching point (fundamental meaning) of the show is to try and portray the route which one has towards individuality, after a catastrophic breakdown of the will to live on as an individual. I do not think we can just interpret actions such as Rei's reaction to biofusion as predominantly "erotic" and then leave it at that - this not only takes a decidedly one-sided on-the-surface view (sexual) [she also seems to be in pain if I recall], but fails to relate it to the overall plot (which I think is possible to do, but not by taking sexual imagery as they are, e.g. a vagina), and therefore the fundamental meaning. I see the fundamental meaning as the ultimate point of the show, and the primary reason why I have not thrown Evangelion into the dustbin of history yet.

[Reichu]

My previous post on the erotic and reproductive imagery in the #23' encounter was entirely observational and drew no conclusions -- but, from over here, your response makes it seem like I did. You won't find me arguing with most of that. E.g., that the symbolism stretches beyond its superficial surface appearance would seem to be a matter of common sense.

[JFaulkner]

My previous post on the erotic and reproductive imagery in the #23' encounter was entirely observational and drew no conclusions -- but, from over here, your response makes it seem like I did. You won't find me arguing with most of that. E.g., that the symbolism stretches beyond its superficial surface appearance would seem to be a matter of common sense.

OK, that's fine - I was not aiming that post at you (or anyone in particular here), nor accusing you of being ignorant of any other meaning apart from the sexual one (despite the polemic tone :)).

I was eager to point out that although sexual images are used in Evangelion, this does not mean that sex itself has anything to do with its meaning. Further, I was keen to encourage people to look at the meaning behind the images, because in my experience, people seem happy just to discuss the sexual images themselves. If my posts seem to be forcing the issue (a self-observation), then that is what I intended, because I have a ton of "things" to do IRL and wanted to get everything out of my head before I have no more time to post and forget all about them.

[BLACKANGEL32076]

The scene between Rei and Armisael is, I would argue, predominantly non-sexual. For example, what you have quoted above does not really allude to sex. In fact, in the discussion between them, it becomes clear that the "become one" concept is more to do with alleviating loneliness, and sharing emotions and minds to try and reduce pain and sadness associated with the individual existence. Sex on its own does not do this, as I have tried to show in my last post.

This also shows that interpreting "become one" as purely sexual is inadequate.

Wasn't it once suggested that this attack was akin to a tentical rape?

[Reichu]

It leaves itself wide open to jokes of that nature, which certain persons around these parts have jumped at the chance to exploit... :shifty: