Google Advertising

[Gene]

In an effort to help support the costs of running the forum, we've added Google Adwords. For years, we worked hard to avoid most advertising, but busy forums take time and money. Clicks on the advertisers links help to generate revenue (hopefully) and keep things running well, upgrading, expanding, etc. Any thoughts or concerns, please feel free to post them here.

Thanks,
12

[HSaabedra]

Oh, that's a huge relief, I thought I had trojans on my computer for a second. Any plans for an affiliate marketplace?

[Soluzar]

You realise of course that this may generate adverts for anime vendors other than yourself? If I'm mistaken, or there's some way to prevent that from happening, then please disregard this comment. There are also other adverts of a questionable desirablity, such as goldselling services for MMORPGS, and things of that nature.

EDIT: Yeah, I was right. Of a sample of generated adverts for this page, 75% specifically mention 'anime' and/or 'manga'. Surely that can't be what you want?

It's also worth pointing out that Google ads aren't really a great way to go for you, and probably won't generate you a penny. Google have a habit of cancelling people's account just before it's due to pay out. They can do so for a lot of reasons, and they don't need the slightest shred of proof.

Overall, I can't say that I think it's a very good idea. However, since I won't ever see the adverts unless I wish to, I'm perfectly happy to ignore them. :)

[Leader Desslock]

...including sites that sell bootlegs, I see. Is AN going to ignore that, or are you gonna try to reconcile it with your "no links to bootleggers" policy?

EDIT: Note, that I don't really care. Just pointing it out. It's your forum; do what you want, and if the ads annoy me, I'll leave. Simple.

[Reichu]

Man, those ads are breaking one of the big forum no-nos! How come they're allowed to mention other online anime vendors while we can't? </irony>

If nothing else, they're an eye-bleeder.

EDIT @ Desslock: Crikey, that's even worse!

[Soluzar]

...including sites that sell bootlegs, I see. Is AN going to ignore that, or are you gonna try to reconcile it with your "no links to bootleggers" policy?
GameFAQs just went through this exact same issue a few months ago, and the staff there came to the conclusion that the rules only apply to messages posted on the forum, not to the content of the forum itself. :rolleyes:

The adverts which offended the GameFAQs community were those for goldselling services, but the nature of the complaint was the same. The adverts went against the rules, and the spirit of the forum. I have every confidence that we can expect a better response from the AnimeNation staff. ;)

[Leader Desslock]

Update: You can include sites that allow illegal downloads of R1 licensed series in your new google ads, too. Just an FYI.

[Chousho]

It's also worth pointing out that Google ads aren't really a great way to go for you, and probably won't generate you a penny. Google have a habit of cancelling people's account just before it's due to pay out. They can do so for a lot of reasons, and they don't need the slightest shred of proof.
http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269079
I was just reading this on some Sitepoint threads. Personally, if the ad is placed well (doesn't block content), I have no problem. However, there are exceptions, and some layouts just don't look good with an ad.

How much are you hoping to make with the ads? Or actually, how much do the forums cost you additionally? Maybe we could do a "Donate via Paypal" thing in place?

Overall, I can't say that I think it's a very good idea. However, since I won't ever see the adverts unless I wish to, I'm perfectly happy to ignore them. :)
Same here (for both points). I have extensions for Firefox to block google ads, but I leave it disabled most of the time.

[Soluzar]

http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269079
I was just reading this on some Sitepoint threads.
I've read that kind of story from several sites. It's possible that all of them were indulging in click-fraud, but I doubt it. It seems more likely that Google are a little over-eager to cancel accounts. I wonder what the reason could be? :rolleyes:
Update: You can include sites that allow illegal downloads of R1 licensed series in your new google ads, too. Just an FYI.As far as I understand the system, the ads you get are based on the words on the page, which means that if I mention bootlegs, I will see adverts related to bootlegs. That should worry our friends in the admin team. It would certainly worry me.

[Leader Desslock]

As far as I understand the system, the ads you get are based on the words on the page...
Clicking on the "Ads by Goooooogle" link above, I went to the AdWords description and they talked about keywords that were suggested by their "Keyword Generator", that a site admin would then ad to their site to govern which ads are shown.

It would seem to me that AN would want to discard keywords like "anime" and "DVD" (which pull in links to anime bootleggers) and concentrate more on... I dunno... keywords that bring in non-conflicting links to retailers that match AN members' other interests. Even if they have to ditch the keyword generator and plug them in manually, it seems it'd be more in line with their business objectives.

You could plug in keywords for "art supplies" and "fiction writing" in the Fan Art & Fiction section, keywords for various games and gaming consoles in the Video Games section, etc. None of these would conflict with the AN retail presence.

[ben93085]

Actually, i didn't notice until I read this thread......>_<

[Samurai Drifter]

Ha ha ha, AN doesn't even allow people to talk about other retail sites on the forums and ultimately links to not only other retail sites, but bootlegs. And if they didn't expect that would happen by including Google Ads, they're not all that smart.

[KingNe!]

I don't see too much of a problem. If people want bootlegs, they'll look for them and find them with relative ease. Just look at ebay. A few links will hardly make a difference. Only people who want them will get them.

And as someone already said, they are hardly noticeable. I didnt even know they were here until I read the thread.

[espy]

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/369/tuseadwordscz1.png (http://imageshack.us)

The third ad made me laugh :lol:

[Ken-Ohki]

I'll admit, they make me nervous. So far about 1/3 of them are advertising your competitors and with the recent INSANE reduced prices on box sets it's like you guys are taking a final breath before drowning.

I certainly hope you're around for my purchases of Tsukiyomi Moon Phase and Galaxy Angel. I've already needed to finish off Tiny Snowfairy Sugar from a competitor :(

The idea of using someone else for anime purchases is distasteful.

[Soluzar]

I'll admit, they make me nervous. So far about 1/3 of them are advertising your competitors and with the recent INSANE reduced prices on box sets it's like you guys are taking a final breath before drowning.I do doubt that. It's more likely that they were considering the possibility of ditching the forums, since they aren't proven to drive sales. The idea of using someone else for anime purchases is distasteful.You're the kind of member 12String would like to hug. ;)

[Gene]

I'll admit, they make me nervous. So far about 1/3 of them are advertising your competitors and with the recent INSANE reduced prices on box sets it's like you guys are taking a final breath before drowning.

I certainly hope you're around for my purchases of Tsukiyomi Moon Phase and Galaxy Angel. I've already needed to finish off Tiny Snowfairy Sugar from a competitor :(

We're always evaluating the different facets of our organization and looking for ways to add, improve, or cut. We love the forums, but we have to look at all things objectively when operating as a business that needs to be profitable. There are no plans to kill the forums, it would just be nice to reduce or negate their cost.

The box set and other sales are usually things we work out with suppliers. We get a better price for a limited time, which allows us to offer you a crazy deal. Less profit per unit, but volume hopefully makes up for it.

The idea of using someone else for anime purchases is distasteful.

Thanks, hopefully we'll be around for a long time to come ;)

The ads are an experiment in generating revenue on an aspect of our site that is hard to quantify revenue-wise. We'll see how it goes, we're aware of the issues that have been mentioned with bootlegs, competitors, etc., and we're debating approaches to the whole thing.

[HSaabedra]

It wouldn't surprise me if AN decided to get rid of the boards altogether.
I used to frequent the VG section and now I understand why the median age is 16. Same for Anime and other related boards. What has become of the off topic board is a mere shell of what I remember it being. This place doesn't feel like the board I enjoyed all those years ago. This is not a knock against mods or admins, this is more of an observation I've noticed over the past four years. The fans are getting younger and younger and it would mean less revenue for you since a good majority don't have access to a bank account or credit card. How much of AN's profits is taken up by the forum to the point where Google is necessary to sustain it? I frequent another board, called HowardForums, a board dedicated to cellphones and associated technologies, and they have used it successfully, but only in combination with premium subscriptions. I'm not suggesting you start premium services or get rid of the boards, just think about how much of a liabilty this board is if you have to resort to advertising.

EDIT: I guess I found my answer. :)

Hopefully the ads will be better integrated within the site itself as not to seem so intrusive.

[throughhim413]

Boy, I'm glad my Firewall blocks ads. Otherwise I'd probably be annoyed that I'd have to see those all the time.

[Joeshie]

So does this mean we can start talking about websites that sell anime cheaper than Animenation now?

[Lord Dagoth]

While I understand that it is a necessity, it's disapointing to see those ads.

[CrossboneGundam]

The irony here is that a lot of the people pointing out the economic discrepancies in this situation are people who have made a prominent point in the past of the fact that while they use the AN forums, they don't buy from AN. :lol:

[VidelCoolGirl]

Well, AN finally sold out. No, kidding, but it surprised the hell out of me to see those up there at first. Well, as long as it stas just on top, I'm fine. Although yeah, AN is expensive. I would probably do the same.

[Gene]

The irony here is that a lot of the people pointing out the economic discrepancies in this situation are people who have made a prominent point in the past of the fact that while they use the AN forums, they don't buy from AN. :lol:

You pretty much hit it here. Although we usually recognize this, your post got me looking up the emails of some of the naysayers on this thread in our order system. Out of the ones with the most disparaging things to say, like Samurai Drifter "they're not all that smart.", you know how many placed orders? Zero.

Sometimes you have to consider exactly this type of response on free services. Before we started charging a nominal fee, our Anime Email Service was free and had 72,000 members. Impressive huh? Worth the support costs for the expected conversion to sales of some of that traffic, right? 72,000 members! Know how much sales volume we lost when we killed the free service? Zero. There wasn't any there to begin with.

My point being some of the most vocal don't support us anyway, so that lessens the weight those particular opinions carry.

[Samurai Drifter]

You pretty much hit it here. Although we usually recognize this, your post got me looking up the emails of some of the naysayers on this thread in our order system. Out of the ones with the most disparaging things to say, like Samurai Drifter "they're not all that smart.", you know how many placed orders? Zero.
You make it seem as though that's somehow contridictory. Why would I financially support a company whose actions I don't support? I come to the forums because it's a relatively good place to discuss anime and related topics.

It's merely amusing to note that after supressing so much talk about other retailers, you're supporting them yourselves, including bootleggers. :lol:

[master terrence]

my opinion, get a google ad for flying to japan or DVD players and such. We need DVD players to watch the DVD's you sell, right... Advertise something that compliments (not substitutes) your products, that would be the best way to go.

[throughhim413]

I'm actually kind of glad the above post by 12String was made. I've been wanting to make some comments to that end, but I was never sure where the right place to do it was.

Now, first of all, let me state where I'm coming from. This is the only forum I really post on online. I really like this forum, in spite of some of the membership. I've met many wonderful people on here, so, I really do want AN to succeed. However, I'm also a smart consumer. Even though I love AN, it doesn't take much searching to find several websites that can offer deals that are far below SRP. On top of that, AN doesn't even offer deals that can keep up with the sales held by their supposedly biggest rival. I have 3 sites I use (I won't name them here obviously) that offer legit R1 DVDs for significantly less then AN. And this is when they aren't having sales. This also doesn't factor in that I'm one of the seemingly small number of anime fans that actually buys DVDs. Many people today don't just want anime cheap, they
expect it free. I don't know the solution to that one, but that's another matter.

Now, perhaps I'm not in a place to question business strategy. I'm a 20 year old undergraduate student afterall, so I've hardly got any business experience to back up my words. But really, can you truly expect people to buy from you when they can find the same products cheaper within minutes. Younger and younger people are becoming smarter consumers. If you're looking for some of the cause as to why people don't buy from you, it's simple economics. When Price is too great, the Quantity Demanded falls. Economics says that the only way to respond to that would be to lower price. I mean, really, I understand that AN has brick and mortar stores, so I can see why they sell at SRP. But this is the internet. It's not like we have to drive to another store that's 30 minutes away by car if we want to bargain shop.

I want to buy from you guys. Please, give me a reason to buy from you. Because honestly, right now, I can't justify purchasing from you. 25% off preorders just doesn't do it for me. I mean, here's how it is. I'm looking at your overstock sale, the stuff that should be the cheapest on the site, right? I'm just picking a random title.

AN's Price for Saint Seiya Collection 2: $29.99
Not a bad deal. However, let's do a quick search.
Alternative Site: $30.94 with Free Shipping
Second Alternative: $28.21 Shipping Not Included

And those are not on sale. Those are the prices I can always get those for. In other words, AN's bottomline price is still higher then other retailers. How could we possibly justify buying at higher prices? Many of us already have limited income, so we're looking for the cheapest possible place to buy from.

And that's all I have to say. Feel free to delete my post if you don't want it on the forum. But this is how I feel. And I'm sure it's how many others feel too. Lower prices and more sales is the only way to win this battle. This is the internet afterall.

[Soluzar]

My point being some of the most vocal don't support us anyway, so that lessens the weight those particular opinions carry.
Thank you for this information. I won't trouble you with any of my opinions in the future. I had always assumed this to be the case, but having had it confirmed brings things sharply into focus for me. You were addressing Samurai Drifter, but the statement is quite equally applicable to me. It's not convenient for me to make my orders through AnimeNation, and I had been under the missapprehension that this did not affect my standing on the forum.

In the event that you might have felt moved to do so, please do not trouble yourself to make a conciliatory reply, since it would fall on deaf ears. We both know that your statement makes perfect economic sense, and I'm entirely comfortable with that. It's just nice to know. :)

Now, first of all, let me state where I'm coming from. This is the only forum I really post on online. I really like this forum, in spite of some of the membership. I've met many wonderful people on here, so, I really do want AN to succeed. However, I'm also a smart consumer. Even though I love AN, it doesn't take much searching to find several websites that can offer deals that are far below SRP. On top of that, AN doesn't even offer deals that can keep up with the sales held by their supposedly biggest rival.
That about sums up my position as well. It's not that I don't recognise and respect that this forum is operated by a company whose primary objective is to make a profit, but I can't respect the statement that the opinions of those who don't choose to buy from AnimeNation are less important.

I've never encouraged anyone to shop elsewhere, and I don't recall having posted any links to other retailers, but I'm not about to base my own purchasing decisions on the basis of loyalty, when it doesn't make economic or logistical sense for me to do so.

[Leader Desslock]

My point being some of the most vocal don't support us anyway, so that lessens the weight those particular opinions carry.
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa; I'm one of those. After one sizeable order a long time back under a different email address, I haven't ordered anything since. I won't rehash why that's the case.

That won't stop me from offering feedback, however. If it's ignored, so be it; I've never been one to feel my opinion needed to be welcome before uttering it. It's your forum, your business, and your call on how to run the show, however.

[Soluzar]

That won't stop me from offering feedback, however. If it's ignored, so be it; I've never been one to feel my opinion needed to be welcome before uttering it. It's your forum, your business, and your call on how to run the show, however.It will stop me from offering feedback in the future. You see, I used to think that operating an anime forum along lines of excellence was a goal of AnimeNation. I used to think that it must be a point of pride for them, aside from any commercial concerns, and that it was worth sinking a certain amount of money into because of that.

I wish that were the case, however unrealistic it is. I would have a lot of respect if that were the case, and 12String has even said some things, in the past, that encouraged me to believe it might be the case. It was foolish of me to believe such things, though. I certainly don't blame the team for running this forum on the basis that it must cover its costs, but the idealist in me has always hoped that it was not so.

[Gene]

As far as pricing, I understand the economics, and shopping where you find the deals. There are a lot of factors involved in our pricing, and while none of it is at SRP, we know that there are discounters offering better deals. We'll leave that one as a 'we're aware of it, are looking at it much more closely lately, and are working on it'.

As for forum opinions, everyone is welcome, all opinions are welcome as well. I guess I didn't mean to give the impression that member's value is based on their patronage of AN, which honestly is not the case. It's just that sometimes the biggest gripers are the ones with no stake in the venture. I see this in a lot of areas in life, and it pushes my button. In this case, don't gripe about the google ads unless you're willing to pony up with actual constructive criticism, which some have.

[Ikari Warrior]

I'm too lazy to read the thread, but I was wondering if it were possible to place those ads at the bottom of the site? i.e., put the ads underneath where it says "Page Design (c) 2004 Animenation(tm). All Rights Reserved."

The majority of us don't scroll that far, so whether we have ad blockers or not, it won't be a hindrance of any kind. Or does google not permit to keep their ads in such an out of the way place?

As Dess said, you wanna put ads on here, it's your call. <melodrama>And yea, I've had a grand total of 2 purchases from this site, but I still believe in it!</melodrama>

[Gene]

I'm too lazy to read the thread, but I was wondering if it were possible to place those ads at the bottom of the site? i.e., put the ads underneath where it says "Page Design (c) 2004 Animenation(tm). All Rights Reserved."

The majority of us don't scroll that far, so whether we have ad blockers or not, it won't be a hindrance of any kind. Or does google not permit to keep their ads in such an out of the way place?


We can put ads anywhere, but obviously putting them somewhere where they'll be effective (and clicked on) is the way to go to generate any revenue. I know it's kind of a shock when you're used to seeing the forums a certain way, and ad-free for so long. We're not overly thrilled either, since we worked off a "no-ad" philoshophy for so long. However, one can't argue with the economics. Anyone not happy with the ads can always just block them, which is what I do on most sites without a second thought. Why spend the effort complaining when they can be blocked in seconds, and never seen again?

There is actually a less obtrusive top banner, but then we're back to the same argument, is it as effective, will it get clicks?

[Soluzar]

I guess I didn't mean to give the impression that member's value is based on their patronage of AN, which honestly is not the case. It's just that sometimes the biggest gripers are the ones with no stake in the venture. I see this in a lot of areas in life, and it pushes my button.
The reason I said that if you made this kind of a statement it would fall on deaf ears is because of two things. The first is that I'm really not offended, and the second is that I recognise that to a certain degree, this is the way things should be. There are too many reasons for me to not use AnimeNation as my anime vendor of choice. If I lived in the appropriate part of the USA, instead of here in the UK, I'd be using RentAnime.com though. ;)

In this case, don't gripe about the google ads unless you're willing to pony up with actual constructive criticism, which some have.
Rather than being distressed by the adverts, I'm actually more concerned that they may be a detriment to your busines interests, which I wouldn't want. Adverts on the internet aren't something I'm interested in looking at, and so I don't see them. For that reason, they never trouble me if they are present. :)

[Joeshie]

The only reason I have any care about AnimeNation is simply because the forums are generally better than 99% of other anime forums out there (and you harbor one of the most intelligent Evangelion discussion forums).

While I have never and probably won't ever buy from AnimeNation, I will continue to click on those little ads since I do care what happens to these forums. I support the addition of the ads since I can now support the forums without providing direct financial support.

[Jae Hoon]

Yeah another prominent forum I am on has ads as well but I am a premuim member there so there is no problems. I dont get ads lol, I will say though you will get really stupid ads up there and some of them have been known to have spyware. There are quite a few forums that have went to this,Tekkenzaibatsu has been like this for well over a year if not 2.

[The Million Dollar Prons]

Linking to other retailers probably won't help your store.

[Matsu'o Tsurayaba]

Its..sad to me.I thought sales on the website kept the forum up,but from what i now see.That is not the case,will there come a time when members will need to donate to keep the forum alive?...

[Jon]

While I have never and probably won't ever buy from AnimeNation, I will continue to click on those little ads since I do care what happens to these forums. I support the addition of the ads since I can now support the forums without providing direct financial support.

I agree, even though 75% of the ads link to sites such as youtube showings, direct downloading and bootlegs. If Anime Nation needs to advertise to get some extra $$$$, then so be it. Just try and resolve the whole "illegal links" aspect of this, and advertising should be no problem.

Maybe us users can all make an effort to click on the ads (after the whole illegal thing gets sorted out, of course) to help produce some money for your company. Additionally, setting up a donation service (mentioned in thread elsewhere) could be a smart idea. You could even go further by allowing users who have donated to obtain additional features such as ‘alternate colors for your username’ (just an example, could or could not work), which believe it or not will intimidate some people to donate.

I hope I’ve thrown out some helpful suggestions, which may or may not be used/taken under consideration for.

[Josh]

For what it's worth, and strictly from my point of view, I don't think any of us at AN look at it any of you as a dollar sign. We wouldn't run the forums, or the news site for that matter, at all if that was the case. These are things that we do for fun, and for our part in promoting something that we all love, anime. There are many people, that while having never purchased a single item from us, have contributed to our community in inumerable ways, and for that we're truly greatful. It's more about frustration with people who shout that the sky is falling at every turn, without ever offering us any constructive feedback about what we could do better.

The video game forums for example, were saved from THE GREAT PURGE because rational arguements for thier place here were made, and listened to. We don't sell video games, but we kept it for it's value to the community.

[Lord Dagoth]

I guess I'm cool with it as long as the ads don't end up in between posts

[The Million Dollar Prons]

I gotta warn you AN, some of these links will sell bootlegs.

[Siendra]

I would generally assume that the possible negatives of this out weigh the positives of keeping the more expansive community...

Alas, it's your own decisions, but in the ten minutes I've been online to day, I've seen ads too:
Download Naruto
Download GitS
Buy Bootlegs of One Piece
Buy Eva DVD's at 65% off
Get all my "Animez Coiiectables"
So on and so forth

Honestly, we're I in your shoes, I'd severely downsize the community until it was cost effective enough to permit not running the Google ads. There's no definitive way to say at this point - but I'm fairly convinced you stand to lose more then you gain from this. :|

[The Million Dollar Prons]

Hence my sugguestion to cut out the Polls Battles and Games forum. There's other forums that can be cut too, music and DVD can be cut out, a lot of the topics discussed in them can just be touched on in General anime.

I hope you don't mind me getting nosey, but do the forums really cost THAT much to run? I know nothing about running forums of such a high magnitude, but considering we only use like, 80x80 avatars, have no signature images, and have a forum that isn't very graphic heavy, is it really costing that much?

Then let's say it really does cost a ton of money to run these forums, are Google Ads really enough to spring for the costs? No one clicks 'em anyway, and as I've mentioned, lots of them have HK knockoff DVDs. Will it make enough money to cover the cost of the forums?

[Rain]

I advocate the removal of the Polls, Battles & Games forum to cut bandwidth costs (assuming that bandwidth costs are what's primarily causing the financial issues.)

[SDAnimeFan]

I was surprised when I spotted those banners there. Like some other people I am concerned about the bootleg DVD sites that I have spotted in the ads from time to time. You don't want to lose business to those ripoff sites.

[Siendra]

No one clicks 'em anyway,

That's another thing - people don't normaly click those things. I sure as heck won't - I'm looking at one right now about buying the Kiddy Grade DVD's... Now, to me, that coming up on a Google Ad Bar likely means that I can rearrange it to sayd "Grad A Kiddy Porn" and be reasonably confident that that's exactley what's waiting on the other side.

Don't even get me started on what I think that "School Girl Clubs: Wholesale today!" ad is.

[Sharp-kun]

How about adding a "donate via paypal link"? Even if its not used by most people, every little helps.

Hence my sugguestion to cut out the Polls Battles and Games forum. There's other forums that can be cut too, music and DVD can be cut out, a lot of the topics discussed in them can just be touched on in General anime.
Cutting PB&G would unleash a hellstorm unlike any the forums have seen.

Removing the other forums wouldn't really help - its not the number of forums, its the number of views/threads. Moving them elsewhere isn't the solution.

[Soluzar]

Then let's say it really does cost a ton of money to run these forums, are Google Ads really enough to spring for the costs? No one clicks 'em anyway, and as I've mentioned, lots of them have HK knockoff DVDs.
QFT. Not enough people, anyway. If too small of a group of IPs are generating all of your clicks, then Google will call shenanigans, and say that it's clickfraud. In other words, if it's just that group of devoted AN regulars who care about the forum enough to click regularly, they will be doing much more harm than good.

[Gene]

Google ads are gone. Doesn't look like it will be worth it, the revenue generated is not enough to offset the hassles.

I'd like to mention that the forums aren't going away. While we'd like to defray costs and even generate some revenue, we're not going to be cutting subforums or services on the forum in any way. We like them the way they are. Just so there's no confusion on that point.

We would still like to talk about ways to support them, though, possibly with merchandise or premium memberships. I'll start anohter thread for that discussion and close this one. Thanks for the feedback while we tested this.