Yaoi: By and For Women [research paper]

[GokuMew2]

Okay, here's my research paper that I wrote in English 1B on yaoi. I got an A in the class, so I assume I got an A on the paper as well. (The class was hard! .o_o;) Anyway, my teacher was brought up in a gay family and he had no idea there was gay media targeted at women. He thought it was very interesting. My paper probably doesn't touch every topic but I think it does a good job in general. I worked really hard on this paper and I think I did pretty good, if I may say so myself.

Btw, the quote I got from the **** Head Comics site is no longer there. Looks like the page was redesigned since my last visit when I was doing research. Just a heads up.

http://www.crosswithyou.net/temp/Yaoi%20By%20and%20For%20Women.pdf

Constructive comments only, please!

[Defiled one]

I dont have anything to say....unless that, your right...

you just merely stated the facts that some people refuse to listen...

I absolutly agree...

I cant find anything to critizise in the document...

[LazyNeko]

Wow.....I could'nt find anything wrong with that.

You pretty much just summed up all my thoughts. Great job. :thumbsup:

[Aquastorm]

Excellent reading material. It's about time someone wrote about it.

[{NG}Fidel]

I feel a gay man would have to step up and offer his thoughts on yaoi.
I get what your saying in the essay and its well said.
Regardless I feel that gay males are also buyers of yaoi material and often under apreciated and remembered. Just because something isnt pornagraphic and involves two men in a realationship doesnt mean men are barred from being part of the audience. The idea that something like this is targeted at a certain gender is what baffles me. A simplistic overview of the situation would say yes but in reality its targeted at a mind set. And their is no mindset that men or women are only allowed to have.
Thus I would say Yaoi's target audience is that of people lookng for a love drama between two males that doesnt focus heavily on sex but understands that love and realationships are both physical and mental and thus includes such images if need be. While it may be that more women are fond of gay male love stories that isnt because its made for them by them. Its because the amount of gay males is vastly outnumbered by straight females. And the straight males that are intrested are even fewer in size than the gay males. Thus it becomes tainted with the idea that women are the sole producers and purchasers of yaoi.
I find that to be untrue, I do find that women hold allot of sway in what material is within yaoi but thats also because homosexual males and straight women often share similar beliefs.

[DazzleKitty]

I think that was a very interesting article and I see nothing wrong with it! Thank you very much for posting it.

I have a question. I've heard it mentioned that women in Japan like yaoi because it gets rid of the gender roles they are pressured into and you also talked about it in your article. Is that true for today? I heard that's the main reason it became popular in Japan at first, but now I hear a lot of girls there like it now as a fetish. Anyone have any input on this?

[same_animefan]

Very good report. That summed up everything perfectly. I found nothing wrong with it. *applauses* ^_^ And I learned a bit more about Yaoi too ^_~.

[Carmel]

Regardless I feel that gay males are also buyers of yaoi material and often under apreciated and remembered. Just because something isnt pornagraphic and involves two men in a realationship doesnt mean men are barred from being part of the audience. The idea that something like this is targeted at a certain gender is what baffles me. If you read the article, you'd see that it mentions that it's not only bought by females, and is bought by any person of any sexuality.

See: "Though yaoi is targeted at women, its fan base includes both men and women, gay and straight."

Very well done! I enjoyed reading it and hope you got an A. ^_^

[hiei_kurama27]

That paper was excellent. I enjoyed reading it, and agreed with the majority of it. There were some parts that made me laugh, like the fangirl part.

[Kaosgirl]

I feel a gay man would have to step up and offer his thoughts on yaoi.
I get what your saying in the essay and its well said.
Regardless I feel that gay males are also buyers of yaoi material and often under apreciated and remembered. Just because something isnt pornagraphic and involves two men in a realationship doesnt mean men are barred from being part of the audience. The idea that something like this is targeted at a certain gender is what baffles me. A simplistic overview of the situation would say yes but in reality its targeted at a mind set. And their is no mindset that men or women are only allowed to have.

While true, there are tendencies towards certain characteristics. Describe a certain mindset and, if it includes enough of those tendencies, most people will be able to predict with some accuracy if you're describing a man or a woman.

They won't be able to do it with complete accuracy or certainty, of course, because there are plenty of people who break out of the general tendencies.

Of course, most of the ones who don't tend to forget this. Which is how stories can be targetted at women, and still be found appealing by certain men.

[Milky Mixer]

As a 30something gay man, I'll "step up" and add my thoughts.

Overall, the article is pretty good. Is this for a college class, high school class, writing course? Just curious.

I think one point that is being missed in the "by women for women" argument is the world Japanese... "by Japanese women for Japanese women." The target audience for yaoi is Japanese women: the culture that produces the material and the customers in that culture who read it. I think once we transcend that market and bring yaoi to the US, translate it, and put it out there for the general populace, well, it doesn't really matter if you're a straight woman, a lesbian woman, a gay man, a straight man, or a cocker spaniel... you're no longer really the "intended audience." John, the AN mod who does the Ask John articles, has said time and time again that anime is not created for an American audience, and yaoi really isn't any different if we're being strict with our definition of yaoi and not talking about OEL manga or labelling Anne Rice's vampire novels as yaoi because they have homoerotic undertones in them. Despite this fact, that the yaoi audience in the US is not limited to Japanese woman and can be inclusive of everyone including gay men, I have to say I've stopped going to the "yaoi after dark" panels at cons because I do feel exlcuded or looked at "funny" for being there simply because I'm not a young girl. And I realize I may be in the minority, especially at an anime convention. But still, it's hard to have a discussion when the majority of the audience is discussing how they hide their yaoi from their parents. Not knocking any of you younger ladies, just saying that it's difficult for a gay man who does appreciate and like some of these stories to find common ground with younger straight girls, even if we like the stories for some of the same reasons. Also it's funny to hear these girls express their feelings and opinions on gay male sex, when ultimately, they can't ever really know what having gay male sex is like. Just an observation. Again, not trying to pick on anyone here. So yes, the gay male yaoi fan is here and we do sometimes feel unappreciated, even if we do accept we are in the minority.

I'd also like to interject one other thought, and while I know that (again speaking about the Japanese market) gay comics and yaoi are created for different audiences and are very different in their presentation, not all gay men want to read about over-muscled guys with huge d*cks just going at it without any emotion, any story, etc. In fact, most of the yaoi that I don't like are the stories that have stupid non-plots and just concentrate on the sexual aspects. I also like the cute, feminized uke characters... yknow, as long as they aren't too squealy and dopey. But in terms of the art, I think Hisoka and Chihiya (from YnM and Earthian, respectively) are wonderful characters who compliment their semes in both personality and visual appeal. (Ok, ok, so Hisoka technically never got busy with Tsuzuki, but you know they were heading in that direction.) I love the pairings in Skyscrapers of Oz. I think the Wild Rock pairing and the guy having to dress like a girl is a bit silly. I also like the pairing in Yellow, which presents two masculine seme-ish guys. So it's unfair to simply say "gay men like this kind of art, this kind of story, this kind of comic." I'd rather have a good love story with emotion between the characters than a corny sex scene. I'm not saying the article/report was arguing for the idea that gay men only like certain art or story or whatever, but it did seem to make that claim when trying to distinguish between gay comics and yaoi. Just sayin'.

Discuss...

[GokuMew2]

Thanks for your feedback, everyone!

Regardless I feel that gay males are also buyers of yaoi material and often under apreciated and remembered.
I did mention in there that the fan base includes males, and females, both gay and straight.

I have a question. I've heard it mentioned that women in Japan like yaoi because it gets rid of the gender roles they are pressured into and you also talked about it in your article. Is that true for today? I heard that's the main reason it became popular in Japan at first, but now I hear a lot of girls there like it now as a fetish. Anyone have any input on this?
Hmm.... Good question. If I had to guess, I'd say that that may still be a small part of the reason, but the main reason nowadays is probably because boys on boys can be hot. I say this because women are not completely free but have more freedom than they used to, so some may still want to escape from their social pressures. I'd probably fall in the latter category though. .^^;

Overall, the article is pretty good. Is this for a college class, high school class, writing course? Just curious.
It was for college. We had to write a research paper on anything that related to literature for our final.

I think one point that is being missed in the "by women for women" argument is the world Japanese... "by Japanese women for Japanese women." The target audience for yaoi is Japanese women: the culture that produces the material and the customers in that culture who read it.
This is true. Because yaoi is Japanese, I had some difficulty squeezing in western-ness into the paper. I had to connect both Japan with the west, which is why I wrote that as I did. But you're absolutely right, yaoi is created for a Japanese audience. It was just hard to incorporate every little technicality into the paper.

I'd also like to interject one other thought, and while I know that (again speaking about the Japanese market) gay comics and yaoi are created for different audiences and are very different in their presentation, not all gay men want to read about over-muscled guys with huge d*cks just going at it without any emotion, any story, etc.
You've got a point here too. Again, because I can't write everything there is to write about yaoi and its fans, I sort of went with broad generalizations to get my point across. Also, the paper was written from my, a teenage straight girl's, point of view, so not everything would be covered.

What I really wanted to get across was that it's okay for women to be into yaoi and that yaoi is not "just gay porn." That's why there were some extremes in there and why it mainly focused on women, but I do apologize if I've offended you in any way.


Again, thank you all for your feedback! I'm glad you enjoyed my research paper.

[{NG}Fidel]

If you read the article, you'd see that it mentions that it's not only bought by females, and is bought by any person of any sexuality.

I never disputed that.
I just wrote within my little paragraph that those segments remain for the most part underapreciated within that group of people.

I did mention in there that the fan base includes males, and females, both gay and straight.

What you were quoting wasnt so much meant to be in direct contrast to your essay. The blurb you quoted from me was just a general though.
Like I said your essay is good and I said this.

The idea that something like this is targeted at a certain gender is what baffles me. A simplistic overview of the situation would say yes but in reality its targeted at a mind set. And their is no mindset that men or women are only allowed to have.

I understand no one here thinks yaoi can only be for girls.
What Im just trying to say from my little soap box and without trying to cause friction is that I dont look at yaoi and think "thats for girls". I try not to look at anything as for girls, for guys unless it deals with something specificly for girls like a tampon.

[GokuMew2]

What you were quoting wasnt so much meant to be in direct contrast to your essay. The blurb you quoted from me was just a general though.
Like I said your essay is good and I said this.
Hm, my best guess is that you're saying I didn't represent males' views on yaoi enough? If that's the case then I apologize, but like I've said in my previous post, I couldn't include every little thing in the paper, and the paper is written with establishing yaoi as a legit form of entertainment for women in mind. So yes, it's a bit one-sided with points from mainly a female's POV and "defending women's rights," if you will.

[{NG}Fidel]

Well no, but in an odd way i suppose thats close to the case.
Mainly that I feel we should seperate the ideas that yaoi or yuri are gender specific in any way. Which I know your notimplying Im just stating my feelings is all.

[kittynboi]

AS a gay male who loves pissing people off, my thoughts are that it gives me something of a rush to know I'm violating some kind of custom or unspoken rule by liking yaoi.

[GokuMew2]

Well no, but in an odd way i suppose thats close to the case.
Mainly that I feel we should seperate the ideas that yaoi or yuri are gender specific in any way. Which I know your notimplying Im just stating my feelings is all.
*nod* I understand.

AS a gay male who loves pissing people off, my thoughts are that it gives me something of a rush to know I'm violating some kind of custom or unspoken rule by liking yaoi.
In the beginning, yaoi was created by and for women, but no one's stopping guys from liking it. .^^

[kittynboi]

In the beginning, yaoi was created by and for women, but no one's stopping guys from liking it. .^^[/QUOTE]


They're fortunate. If they tried to stop me, I would ownz0rz them.

[Milky Mixer]

You've got a point here too. Again, because I can't write everything there is to write about yaoi and its fans, I sort of went with broad generalizations to get my point across. Also, the paper was written from my, a teenage straight girl's, point of view, so not everything would be covered.

What I really wanted to get across was that it's okay for women to be into yaoi and that yaoi is not "just gay porn." That's why there were some extremes in there and why it mainly focused on women, but I do apologize if I've offended you in any way.

Hey, I wasn't offended at all. And I totally "get" that the paper is written from a teenage straight girl's point of view. I'm sure, as an (ahem) "older than teenage" gay man's point of view, my version of the research paper might explore some slightly different themes and instead of calling it "By Women For Women" I might call it "By Women For Women?" But I'm sure I'd have a lot of similar things to say with regard to what yaoi is, the emotional aspect to the stories, the freeing or equal representation of two male characters instead of male/female in the originating patriarchal society, I'm sure I'd discuss a lot of the same things... just from the gay adult man's POV. But I totally see where you're coming from and didn't mean to imply you made unfair generalizations. I think the paper succeeds in your intention, to explain what yaoi is, that it is okay for women to be into yaoi, and that it isn't "just gay porn." Fidel had just mentioned that a gay man might want to step up and interject some thoughts, so I thought I'd add to the discussion. Also, having been to college and done a number of research papers myself, I can also understand the "there's only so much I can put into this" approach to the assignment. I think you did a fair job and a good job. Again, I was just adding some other viewpoints that I thought might be of interest to the discussion. So no harm done here. Other than I feel old. I haven't written a term paper in a decade. -_-;

I think the next discussion needs to be... why do gay men like yuri? Air Master, Simoun, Iczer One, Kannazuki no Miko... I'm starting to see an odd pattern in my anime habits lately. :unsure:

[GokuMew2]

Hey, I wasn't offended at all. And I totally "get" that the paper is written from a teenage straight girl's point of view. I'm sure, as an (ahem) "older than teenage" gay man's point of view, my version of the research paper might explore some slightly different themes and instead of calling it "By Women For Women" I might call it "By Women For Women?" But I'm sure I'd have a lot of similar things to say with regard to what yaoi is, the emotional aspect to the stories, the freeing or equal representation of two male characters instead of male/female in the originating patriarchal society, I'm sure I'd discuss a lot of the same things... just from the gay adult man's POV. But I totally see where you're coming from and didn't mean to imply you made unfair generalizations. I think the paper succeeds in your intention, to explain what yaoi is, that it is okay for women to be into yaoi, and that it isn't "just gay porn." Fidel had just mentioned that a gay man might want to step up and interject some thoughts, so I thought I'd add to the discussion. Also, having been to college and done a number of research papers myself, I can also understand the "there's only so much I can put into this" approach to the assignment. I think you did a fair job and a good job. Again, I was just adding some other viewpoints that I thought might be of interest to the discussion. So no harm done here. Other than I feel old. I haven't written a term paper in a decade. -_-;
Hehe, in that case, I'm glad to get your approval! And I think "By Women for Women?" would be an excellent topic for a paper! Too bad I don't think many people would volunteer to write a paper for fun. (It took me what, two weeks to write this one??) But yeah, if anyone needs a research topic!! *nudge nudge*

I think the next discussion needs to be... why do gay men like yuri? Air Master, Simoun, Iczer One, Kannazuki no Miko... I'm starting to see an odd pattern in my anime habits lately. :unsure:
Haha, sorry, can't help you there. .^^;


PS *points to your license wishlist* Air Master is already licensed. I saw a volume of it at Fry's over the weekend.

[Milky Mixer]

PS *points to your license wishlist* Air Master is already licensed. I saw a volume of it at Fry's over the weekend.

Actually, it was one of the few titles that Toie began releasing themselves when they made their half-hearted attempt to break into the anime dvd market in the US. They never completed releasing the series and quit halfway through. Geneon, who was distributing for them, has since announced that the unreleased volumes have been cancelled. So yeah, although it kinda had a US release... it needs a new US release. And the manga needs to be licensed and released too! :P

[{NG}Fidel]

I still havent finished air master but I didnt know it was yuri. I thought it was just humour with the lesbian bits.
Well Ill have to finish it to find out.

[Milky Mixer]

I still havent finished air master but I didnt know it was yuri. I thought it was just humour with the lesbian bits.
Well Ill have to finish it to find out.

Well, there's humor, of course. But if you stick with the series, there's an obvious relationship (and a rather devoted one too!) going on between Maki and Mina. Try as they might, the boys just can't come between them. I believe the anime even has a scene where Maki slips out of the bed she and Mina are sharing (neither of them are clothed, iirc). The manga may go into this even more, but alas, unless it gets licensed I may never know...

[{NG}Fidel]

Well I want to finish the series but I got caught up in galaxy rail ways.
Anyway I will finish it soon we rented the dubbed version ( I know dubbed terrible blah blah blah) but I will rent the subbed versions soon to finish it.

[Milky Mixer]

Well I want to finish the series but I got caught up in galaxy rail ways.
Anyway I will finish it soon we rented the dubbed version ( I know dubbed terrible blah blah blah) but I will rent the subbed versions soon to finish it.

Well, there are no subbed versions unless you get the bootleg version or a fansubbed version. That I know of, anyway... Stupid Toie.

[{NG}Fidel]

Damn, another reason assumptions are not good for you.
Ill have to look into some way of obtaining it here in the US.
I dont like bootleg though.

[CapnTylor]

I think this paper was biased in how it tries to contrast yaoi to "Gay Comics" in order to not appear pornographic in nature. It is not disputable that yaoi is not pornography. If you want to talk about a genre of BL that is not pornographic, then you can should talk about syounen ai. I think the less time spent telling every one how You Swear! This Isn't Masturbatory Material! you can get straight to the point.
But overall, good paper.

[Animematt55]

well now that i am back. I have my critic on your paper.
over all it wasn't that bad of an opinion paper.
Now....Liek the previous poster said. You seemed to focus too much on the "Really it isn't porn, okay?" subject.
I also highly disagree with your stance that women like it cause they are opressed in society....ok girls, it is the 21st century. Women are not discriminated against.
You also say women write these stories in a way that they should be treated in society. If this was true, it would be a woman in the relationship, so that there was an actual character that was female. I also disagree when you quote the guy that says girl want to become sexless. IF they want more freedom with their sexuality, they would want to remain women.

Also, i disagree when you say that women in a hetero relationship are weak. Often, especially in anime, the female characters are often the strongest characters.
I also see no equation with yaoi and women's equality. Simply because a female character is rarely featured.

I also called it an opinion paper, because it is simply that. You do not live in Japan, and many of the people you quote do not either. So your paper does not have as much weigh as it could have.
Your paper also seems to be a bit sexist towards men, and even gay men. You state a few times that gay comcis for men, and men in general are only interested in a "your hot let's ****" type of stories.
and Hard Gay is awesome BTW. sei sei sei!
and this is my critic of your paper. If it offends you, you really shouldn't be posting it on a public forum.

[Milky Mixer]

I also highly disagree with your stance that women like it cause they are opressed in society....ok girls, it is the 21st century. Women are not discriminated against.

Are you a woman? Ok then.


You also say women write these stories in a way that they should be treated in society. If this was true, it would be a woman in the relationship, so that there was an actual character that was female. I also disagree when you quote the guy that says girl want to become sexless. IF they want more freedom with their sexuality, they would want to remain women.


You have every right to disagree, but yaoi and BL did start out as a genre in a very patriarchal society where the women manga-ka were telling stories about relationships they saw as ideal and where the partners were equals (and thus both men), probably even the types of relationships these women would want to have, and the uke often does represent the female manga-ka's point of view in the relationship. They are using male characters as a way to break free from the "second class citizenship" many women are given in male-oriented societies.


Also, i disagree when you say that women in a hetero relationship are weak. Often, especially in anime, the female characters are often the strongest characters.
I also see no equation with yaoi and women's equality. Simply because a female character is rarely featured.


I think there are probably an equal number of weak female characters in anime and manga as there are strong female characters. For every powerful, impulsive, fiesty girl character there's an air-head helplessly waiting to be rescued by some guy. And if you don't see an equation between yaoi and women's equality, you aren't understanding the idea that women creators are using male characters as "stand-ins" for female characters. I mean, I can sit here and argue that gay men read yaoi and enjoy yaoi, but how many yaoi stories actually feature gay characters... and how many feature "straight" men who just happen to fall into these mxm relationships? These aren't really stories written for gay men about gay characters, they're stories written by straight women about straight characters... it's just that the girl happens to be a boy. At least, that's the way yaoi originated.


I also called it an opinion paper, because it is simply that. You do not live in Japan, and many of the people you quote do not either. So your paper does not have as much weigh as it could have.
Your paper also seems to be a bit sexist towards men, and even gay men. You state a few times that gay comcis for men, and men in general are only interested in a "your hot let's ****" type of stories.
and Hard Gay is awesome BTW. sei sei sei!
and this is my critic of your paper. If it offends you, you really shouldn't be posting it on a public forum


Why so antagonistic? Did the poster say she was offended? Golly.

[Animematt55]

Why so antagonistic? Did the poster say she was offended? Golly.
cause i was just banned for almost a week because i was stating my opinion on this type of stuff.
and never in all my life, have i seen a woman discriminated against because she was a woman.

[Milky Mixer]

Damn, another reason assumptions are not good for you.
Ill have to look into some way of obtaining it here in the US.
I dont like bootleg though.

I don't like bootleg either but in this case I think it's totally fair. I mean, if Toie wanted my money they could have completed the R1 release they started of Air Master. But releasing half the series and then quitting...? Doesn't seem like they much cared about getting my money, and I wanted to see the entire series, not just the first half.

BTW, Arcadia Of My Youth is awesome.

[typhonblue]

cause i was just banned for almost a week because i was stating my opinion on this type of stuff.
and never in all my life, have i seen a woman discriminated against because she was a woman.

I second that for the most part.

And, yes, I am a woman.

I'd probably agree with your assessment of the essay Matt. I'm pretty tired of women hiding behind the "I like yaoi because I'm oppressed" line too.

Although there is an aspect of that in Japan. Japan is far more patriarchal then our own culture.

Oh, and I don't think you were banned for having an opinion, just wanting everone else to have that opinion as well.

[Milky Mixer]

cause i was just banned for almost a week because i was stating my opinion on this type of stuff.
and never in all my life, have i seen a woman discriminated against because she was a woman.

Ok, so you were banned... so why come back on and immediately start saying things like "If you don't like it, you shouldn't post on a public forum." ? Saying something like that is provocative, as if you're trying to pick a fight, when the original poster hasn't even had a chance to reply to your criticism of her paper. At least give her a chance to agree/disagree before you bite her head off.

[GokuMew2]

I think this paper was biased in how it tries to contrast yaoi to "Gay Comics" in order to not appear pornographic in nature. It is not disputable that yaoi is not pornography. If you want to talk about a genre of BL that is not pornographic, then you can should talk about syounen ai. I think the less time spent telling every one how You Swear! This Isn't Masturbatory Material! you can get straight to the point.
But overall, good paper.
I was writing to show that it's not all porn. I think I acknowledged in there a couple times that there IS pwp out there, but that pwp shouldn't stereotype the entire genre because not everything in the genre is strictly porn.

And if you read one of my posts in the other thread, you would know that shounen ai is a defunct genre. It is no longer produced and therefore should not be used to categorize anything. It's either yaoi/boy's love or it's not. Anything that's "soft" is just soft yaoi. It would still fall under the yaoi genre.

well now that i am back. I have my critic on your paper.
over all it wasn't that bad of an opinion paper.
Now....Liek the previous poster said. You seemed to focus too much on the "Really it isn't porn, okay?" subject.
I also highly disagree with your stance that women like it cause they are opressed in society....ok girls, it is the 21st century. Women are not discriminated against.
You also say women write these stories in a way that they should be treated in society. If this was true, it would be a woman in the relationship, so that there was an actual character that was female. I also disagree when you quote the guy that says girl want to become sexless. IF they want more freedom with their sexuality, they would want to remain women.
Because I don't want to repeat myself, see what I just wrote above.

I was writing about how yaoi first originated and the reasoning behind its creation. In proving that yaoi is not "just gay porn," showing that it was not created for simply pornographic purposes helps.

Also, i disagree when you say that women in a hetero relationship are weak. Often, especially in anime, the female characters are often the strongest characters.
I also see no equation with yaoi and women's equality. Simply because a female character is rarely featured.
We can go back and forth with this one and still not get anywhere. Female characters are often constantly saved by the male characters. They are often whiny and can barely do anything on their own. I'm not saying all female characters are like this, but there are many who are. (Nor am I saying I hate all characters that fall under this description.)

In yaoi, at least in the beginning, women are represented by the uke. That's why many ukes are rather feminine.

I won't even get into women's rights with you because you have made sexist statements in the past. Explaining would just be a waste of my time since you're so rigid in your beliefs.

I also called it an opinion paper, because it is simply that. You do not live in Japan, and many of the people you quote do not either. So your paper does not have as much weigh as it could have.
Your paper also seems to be a bit sexist towards men, and even gay men. You state a few times that gay comcis for men, and men in general are only interested in a "your hot let's ****" type of stories.
and Hard Gay is awesome BTW. sei sei sei!
and this is my critic of your paper. If it offends you, you really shouldn't be posting it on a public forum.
Well, that's your opinion.
It is a research paper because it uses scholarly sources. The people I quote are experts enough to be able to publish these articles in specialized magazines. I would hardly say they're not credible.

No, I said gay comics are targeted towards men, as opposed to women, and that they are generally written in a pornographic style.

No, your criticism does not offend me. But you acknowledging that it may offend me just goes to show that that may have been one of your goals?

Anyway, your opinions of yaoi are hard-set and are not going to change. Because of your mindset, however, you miss the biggest points of my paper and fail to understand the reasoning behind what I wrote. I think you're just nitpicking, trying to find reasons to make me seem like I don't know what I'm talking about. The reasoning behind practically all your criticisms can be found in the paper itself. But whatever... Frankly, I don't care whether you, or anyone, agrees or disagrees with my paper. It was written with a purpose in mind and the reader gets to decide if that purpose was met. If you don't think it was, fine.

[Animematt55]

I dont get what you mean by shonen-ai....what do yo umean it is no longer around? Doesn't shonen-ai translate to Boy's love?

[GokuMew2]

I dont get what you mean by shonen-ai....what do yo umean it is no longer around? Doesn't shonen-ai translate to Boy's love?
Yes it does, but shounen ai the genre is no longer produced. Since you're so big on the whole "in Japan" thing, in Japan, yaoi is yaoi, though it is most often referred to as boy's love (BL). They don't refer to anything as shounen ai. If the series deals with male homosexual relationships, it's yaoi/BL, no matter how soft or graphic it is.

[Animematt55]

so the shonen/shoujo-ai labels are western? cause i have heard they are coined in japan...
I have noticed those wods used a lot still....

[GokuMew2]

so the shonen/shoujo-ai labels are western? cause i have heard they are coined in japan...
I have noticed those wods used a lot still....
I don't know about shoujo ai since I'm not a fan.
Shounen ai WAS a genre in Japan. But like I've said, it is no longer produced so no one refers to anything as shounen ai anymore, and it is incorrect to categorize anything nowadays as such. They actually say ボーイズラブ (bo-izu rabu), or just BL.

[Animematt55]

O.o crazy fangirls and there crazy lingo. LoL.

[ZoharContact]

I also highly disagree with your stance that women like it cause they are opressed in society....ok girls, it is the 21st century. Women are not discriminated against.Funny how "you aren't being discriminated against anymore!" is the all-purpose line to make minorities shut up about how oppressed they are.

No, really, I don't hear it used in any other manner.

Edit: Tell me that we've solved the equal pay for equal work problem. Then maybe I will believe you.

[GokuMew2]

Funny how "you aren't being discriminated against anymore!" is the all-purpose line to make minorities shut up about how oppressed they are.

No, really, I don't hear it used in any other manner.

Edit: Tell me that we've solved the equal pay for equal work problem. Then maybe I will believe you.
Huh, I hadn't even thought about it that way. Thanks.

[typhonblue]

Funny how "you aren't being discriminated against anymore!" is the all-purpose line to make minorities shut up about how oppressed they are.

No, really, I don't hear it used in any other manner.

Edit: Tell me that we've solved the equal pay for equal work problem. Then maybe I will believe you.

Tell me when we've solved the unequal spending problem. Then maybe I will believe you.

[ZoharContact]

Tell me when we've solved the unequal spending problem. Then maybe I will believe you.These two problems are two sides to one coin, as I may have mentioned before. Oppression tends to be subject to karma. Those who oppress are oppressed right back in ways they don't expect.

If women and men were equal, both the problems of unequal spending and unequal salaries would not exist.

Afterthought: There's also the fact that women's clothing is inordinately expensive.

[April-san]

My $.02

As long as white old men run the US government, very little is going to change here, in the US.

And, even though the term shonen-ai is not currently being used in Japan, we use it here generally in the US and on this forum to differ between mature graphic sex content (Yaoi, age 18+) and non-graphic romantic homosexual relationships which may be offensive to some (shonen-ai/Boy's Love, age 16+). If you have objections on the use of these terms, how would you have us differ between the two?

[Animematt55]

Funny how "you aren't being discriminated against anymore!" is the all-purpose line to make minorities shut up about how oppressed they are.

No, really, I don't hear it used in any other manner.

Edit: Tell me that we've solved the equal pay for equal work problem. Then maybe I will believe you.
We have solved the equal pay, for equal work problem. In fact most recent studies have shown that women make more.
I have had quite a few jobs in my days....and girls never made any less than what they were worth. I made a little more cause i had actual experience. But they also got a lot more paid time off than i did.

EDIT: you told me to tell you...so i did. :P

[DazzleKitty]

cause i was just banned for almost a week because i was stating my opinion on this type of stuff.
and never in all my life, have i seen a woman discriminated against because she was a woman.

That's funny, because I have seen you discriminate against women here.

You know, it would be just fine for you to express your opinion. However, you have to do it over and over by trolling on certain topics and picking apart everything the yaoi fans say on various threads. On top of that, you press your beliefs on everyone and call them closed-minded for not liking what you like, and trying to tell them what they like is wrong. It gets a little old seeing your constant, redundant nitpickings and hypocrisy.

[ZoharContact]

We have solved the equal pay, for equal work problem. In fact most recent studies have shown that women make more.I'd give those figures a good check, but I'd rather translate.

Feel free to post a link or a citation to said study, but for now I'll just compensate by being silent.

[Milky Mixer]

That's funny, because I have seen you discriminate against women here.

You know, it would be just fine for you to express your opinion. However, you have to do it over and over by trolling on certain topics and picking apart everything the yaoi fans say on various threads. On top of that, you press your beliefs on everyone and call them closed-minded for not liking what you like, and trying to tell them what they like is wrong. It gets a little old seeing your constant, redundant nitpickings and hypocrisy.

Yeah, what DazzleKitty said.

There's no rational debating with you, Animematt, because as I said before, you want to be provocative and push everyone's buttons and dispute what everyone says... and then you come back and complain that you were banned as if your own behavior wasn't the cause of being banned. I believe you need to be more open-minded about what others are trying to say and you need to respect their opinions if you want them to respect yours. None of us are the end-all absolute authority on yaoi, BL, shonen ai, Japanese homoflavored comics, whatever you wanna call it... but this includes you. In fact, I can't even tell if you're a fan of the genre or if you're just here to push everyone's buttons. If you can't participate in a friendly discourse about the subject, then perhaps the mods have valid reason to ban you. Or maybe it's just their not-so-subtle way of telling you there are better ways to spend one's time than trying to piss people off on an internet forum.

[typhonblue]

If women and men were equal, both the problems of unequal spending and unequal salaries would not exist.

No doubt. We just disagree one which group is the one being oppressed.

Personally *I* think if one group is making the wealth and another group is enjoying it... well, it stands to reason that the second group, the one benefiting from the labor of the first, isn't exactly oppressed.

BTW, the wage gap dissapears when you look at men and women who are single and childless.

Also interesting is the fact that women in emerging economies "enjoy" a smaller wage gap then those in developed nations, such as our own. In other words, rich women suffer more from the wage gap then poor. Strangely enough.

In fact one might speculate that the only reason the wage gap exists is because, in the west, women are given the choice to work or be supported by a man. A choice that men in the west don't have and women in poorer countries definately don't have.

Afterthought: There's also the fact that women's clothing is inordinately expensive.

Men's clothing is basically drone-clothes. Women have all kinds of complex cuts and accessories, requiring far more invested labor. Women have the option to buy expensive clothing or cheaper, more utilitarian clothing. Men only get the utilitarian clothing.

[Animematt55]

There was an equal pay act of 1963. Making wage discrimination illegal. So you make what you are worth.
EDIT: once i find a good study i will post it somewhere....right now it is jsut all equal rights groups

[ZoharContact]

Personally *I* think if one group is making the wealth and another group is enjoying it... well, it stands to reason that the second group, the one benefiting from the labor of the first, isn't exactly oppressed.And I personally don't find the idea of being forced into dependency with a man to be very appealing. But, to some people, that's the american dream. And women are told stories very early in life about a prince whisking some unfortunate girl away to his castle, where he'll provide her with everything she needs and wants.

It romanticizes the idea of being dependent, which puts an expectation on the woman to be provided for, and the man to provide. And that's why such problems exist.Also interesting is the fact that women in emerging economies "enjoy" a smaller wage gap then those in developed nations, such as our own. In other words, rich women suffer more from the wage gap then poor. Strangely enough.Makes sense to me. When you're closer to the minimum wage, you'd expect less of a discrepancy.

Also, in my experience, the societies in which people seem truly equal are often "undeveloped," non-globalized cultures.Men's clothing is basically drone-clothes. Women have all kinds of complex cuts and accessories, requiring far more invested labor. Women have the option to buy expensive clothing or cheaper, more utilitarian clothing. Men only get the utilitarian clothing.I agree with the part of men's clothing being drone-clothes. But in my experience, the same quality of materials does not lead to the same prices. The idea is that women spend more when they shop, so they make our clothes more expensive. A self-fulfilling cycle.

Anyway, a woman who marries some tycoon to exploit his paycheck, or whose hobby is consuming is not liable to be befriended by me. But in my experience, partners in circumstances involving equal pay tended to have equal expenditures.

[GokuMew2]

And, even though the term shonen-ai is not currently being used in Japan, we use it here generally in the US and on this forum to differ between mature graphic sex content (Yaoi, age 18+) and non-graphic romantic homosexual relationships which may be offensive to some (shonen-ai/Boy's Love, age 16+). If you have objections on the use of these terms, how would you have us differ between the two?
I'm not exactly against it. I just find that most people use the term not knowing that it's technically not used anymore, so when someone tells them it's still yaoi, they dispute it.

Um, well, how about soft yaoi? It's still shorter to type than "shounen ai." :P Okay, only by one keystroke....

[{NG}Fidel]

And I personally don't find the idea of being forced into dependency with a man to be very appealing. But, to some people, that's the american dream. And women are told stories very early in life about a prince whisking some unfortunate girl away to his castle, where he'll provide her with everything she needs and wants.

What? I wasnt going to get into this but that line threw me off.
Sure their are stoires like that but you act like its some big conspiracy and every little girl is read these stories. I can tell you having an option to be supported by someone else is not being forced into anything. Its exactly that an option.

Also, in my experience, the societies in which people seem truly equal are often "undeveloped," non-globalized cultures.
I tried to take that without offence but I cant.
I am Cuban, I have been all over south america and even Cuba by way of 'creative' means. And equality is not all over the place. I am getting tired of people romantisizing these 3rd world countries. The only semblance of equality stems from the fact that their biggest problems are of much more importance than if sue gets more money than jack. But maybe when you go to a country like Hatti and see a man getting his legs sawn off due to disease you will get my point.

I agree with the part of men's clothing being drone-clothes. But in my experience, the same quality of materials does not lead to the same prices. The idea is that women spend more when they shop, so they make our clothes more expensive. A self-fulfilling cycle.
Drone cloths? All the cloths Ive been looking at have been floating about the 1,600$ range and these and mainly individual jackets. Men and Woman both have high priced and low priced clothing.
And its in no way gender related its just high and low fashion. And agian your stereotyping women. Not all women are these crazy money spending shopers I know I spend more money out on the town than my mom and a couple of my friends that happen to be girls.

[ZoharContact]

Sure their are stoires like that but you act like its some big conspiracy and every little girl is read these stories. I can tell you having an option to be supported by someone else is not being forced into anything. Its exactly that an option.I didn't say it wasn't an option. I said it romanticizes the idea. Sorry I set you off...I am getting tired of people romantisizing these 3rd world countries. The only semblance of equality stems from the fact that their biggest problems are of much more importance than if sue gets more money than jack. But maybe when you go to a country like Hatti and see a man getting his legs sawn off due to disease you will get my point.I didn't mean to imply that every third world country had equality in spades. I know how far that is from the truth. The countries I'm thinking about aren't places that just any person can point out on a map. There's a book, Ancient Futures by Helena Norberg-Hodge that's a good read for the subject.Men and Woman both have high priced and low priced clothing.You are correct. But just using plain old jeans as an example, prices go up just with putting the word "women's" on it. I was proposing that this discrepancy among others could have something to do with the fact that women spend more. That's all. I don't really want to debate it more than that.And its in no way gender related its just high and low fashion. And agian your stereotyping women. Not all women are these crazy money spending shopers I know I spend more money out on the town than my mom and a couple of my friends that happen to be girls.I think you may have misread me entirely. I AM a woman, and among my acquaintances I don't see an overwhelming trend of women abusing their husbands paychecks and obsessing over shopping. I was just saying that those who DO aren't my type, so to speak.

Anyway, if you have anecdotal knowledge about the shopping thing and think it applies, tell it to typhonblue, not me. Just... keep your cool.

And maybe we should stop hijacking GokuMew2's thread before everyone abandons it. I was kind of set off by the "you aren't being discriminated against, so shut up!" comment, but I guess I stirred up something larger in response. GokuMew2, I'm really sorry!

[{NG}Fidel]

I get what you mean.
The only thing that 'set me off' per say was the equality idea in third world countries and thats due a large portion of my family and friends still living in the 3rd world and hearing about their lifes quite often.

The idea of putting womans on jeans may be valid but we need more than a theory. I get what you mean but I look at my mom and how she shops and its not like people have no other options. My mom looks great and she is a tightwad with money.

[Milky Mixer]

And maybe we should stop hijacking GokuMew2's thread before everyone abandons it. I was kind of set off by the "you aren't being discriminated against, so shut up!" comment, but I guess I stirred up something larger in response. GokuMew2, I'm really sorry!

Yeah, let's go back to talking about why gay men like yuri.

:O

What do you mean that's not what this thread is about? :uhh:

[CapnTylor]

women's rights

That's all well and good BUT, on the subject of this paper and yaoi in general...

Edit: Although I do think that I agree that, after thinking about it, discrimination against women is not even an issue any more today. :P

This paper is not about "Soft-Yaoi (which I have never heard before in my life)" or "Syounen ai," it's about "Yaoi."

I SUPPOSE if we were to trace my (constructive!) critisism to its very roots, it would be that you should have specified these things at the beginning, or else focused on only what the majority of people believe yaoi to be...which is, classically, porno, and I don't think there's any denying this. :P

[GokuMew2]

And maybe we should stop hijacking GokuMew2's thread before everyone abandons it. I was kind of set off by the "you aren't being discriminated against, so shut up!" comment, but I guess I stirred up something larger in response. GokuMew2, I'm really sorry!
Haha, s'okay.

[earsofdoom]

And maybe we should stop hijacking GokuMew2's thread before everyone abandons it. I was kind of set off by the "you aren't being discriminated against, so shut up!" comment, but I guess I stirred up something larger in response. GokuMew2, I'm really sorry!

I'm sure ppl don't mind, it's rather nice to see a woman who doesn't want to be dependent on a man and would rather support herself. if you would like to discuss such issue's i made a topic a short while ago http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=197432
feel free to express any thought's there im sure many ppl would be very willing to listen.

I guess i should add something to this discussion, im sure that a point of view from a gay man and a japanese yaoi fan would make for good content. (though i see you have one from a gay man... though a little biased this is the Yaoi/Yuri forum after all, no offense or anyting milky) and im a little confused why it sound's like ppl are saying gay comic made by straight female= romantic but gay comic by gay man= porn im sure that there are some out there made by male's that are every bit as good if not better, since that's a part of there life they would know how to write about it. (or in this case "draw" about it) but im guessing you ppl know allot more about this then i do.

[Animematt55]

I im a little confused why it sound's like ppl are saying gay comic made by straight female= romantic but gay comic by gay man= porn im sure that there are some out there made by male's that are every bit as good if not better, since that's a part of there life they would know how to write about it. (or in this case "draw" about it) but im guessing you ppl know allot more about this then i do.
thats what i have been saying though.....

[April-san]

im a little confused why it sound's like ppl are saying gay comic made by straight female= romantic but gay comic by gay man= porn im sure that there are some out there made by male's that are every bit as good if not better

Better? I think it depends on the audience.

As most of you know, I am a huge Yaoi fan, reading almost everything that has been published in the US. A Yaoi title by a male manga-ka (author) is rarer than...well, I don't really know of a male Yaoi manga-ka.

The only experiences I have had with stories by gay men is the book Friction 5 by Jesse Grant and Justin Foxxe and Every Man for Himself by Orland Outland. When I picked the books up, I thought the genre would be similar to that of Yaoi. These two titles were were very different, mainly dealing with physical pleasure rather than emotional satisfaction.

I don't mean to point you out, but Milky, do you have any book or story suggestions?

[Milky Mixer]

I can't really offer any suggestions by gay men writers. As much as I agree with EarsOfDoom's implication that there are gay writers and gay readers who want stories about romance more than just the graphic or physical, I have found a lot of fiction by gay men to be crap with poor plots used as an excuse to string together the sex scenes. It's been my experience that there are very few books (that I've found anyway) that want to explore deeper romantic relationships or even monogomous relationships, which I feel is a real shame because I think the overall pereception of gay men is that we're all living this Queer As Folk cliche lifestyle where we go to the clubs every night and the gyms every day, having anonymous casual sex at both, before getting hooked on drugs or catching AIDS, living shallow lives of materialism and hedonism. And that's just not the case. I think that's a very small percentage of the gay "community" but for whatever reason that seems to be what gets put on the tv, in the movies, and in the bookstores. Trash does sell, heh! And maybe it's something the gay community has had to work through, overcoming our stereotypes and showing that we are as complicated, spiritual, boring, and colorful as straight people. Even Will & Grace and Queer Eye, probably the first gay-themed shows to reach crossover appeal, are full of stereotypes. But I'm getting off topic... I've read one of Orland Outland's books - Different People. I wasn't overly impressed, and it contained many of the cliches I mentioned above. In fact, as much as I hate to admit it, most of the best gay love stories I've read have been by women writers. The Catch Trap by Marion Zimmer Bradley, which I don't even think is still in print, tells the story of the love affair between two guys who grow up in a circus trapeze act. Anne Rice's vampire chronicles, at least the first four or five books, have a lot of wonderful romantic relationships between male characters. Poppy Z. Brite writes fiction about gay men, though I haven't ready any of her books outside of her horror stuff (but I thought the gay relationship in Drawing Blood was well done). Even Brokeback Mountain, which I thought was overrated, was based on a story by a woman. Does this mean gay men are incapable of writing these kinds of stories? No. In Orland Outland's Different People, which I mentioned above, the book does build to a romantic and loving conclusion, but even in those parts of the book I notice something I notice with a lot of gay writers, the blunt concentration on the physical. Not just sex scenes but on things like body hair, appearance, elements that can be seen and touched rather than what's internal or emotional. It can be as cheesy as, well, some of the flowery prose Anne Rice uses. And I have to wonder if this is just a male sensibility. I mean, if you were to take a female writer and a male writer and ask them to approach a straight love story, would the results be similar to the way the gay stories are written? Would the male writer still focus more on physical things? Just pondering. As I said, I wish I had a stack of gay books by gay men writers to recommend, but I tend to not purchase or read many of them as most have disappointed me. When I find one it feels like I've found hidden treasure... but I could probably say that about a lot of books in general. How many books do you read that you truly love and read over and over again? And how many are just kinda ok? Maybe I just haven't found the gay books by gay men writers that are the hidden treasures.

I think gay male readers like yaoi and BL manga for different reasons: some probably like the sex, some probably like the idealistic almost fairy tale stories, some probably just like that they can read gay comics. But I also think a lot of gay men who don't read manga and who haven't been exposed to it might look at it and say: "Well, the sex scenes are hot but they need to be more graphic... but looking at the relationships, what are these women thinking?" I sort of feel like a lot of yaoi isn't really about gay relationships... it's more like they're about straight men having sex with and/or falling in love with other straight men. And not even straight men, but idealized or stereotyped straight men. Even in Yellow, which I really enjoyed, the gay character "gets" the straight object of his affection. And as someone who has fallen head over heels one too many times for his straight male friends and who has had his heart broken each time, I can tell you this just doesn't happen in real life. It's possible I am in the minority when it comes to gay male readers who would rather read about relationships rather than just sex - in fact, I tend to like more BL than yaoi (but this could also have to do with the way the characters are approached). Most of my favorite couples (Takeya and Naoe in Mirage of Blaze, Hisoka and Tsuzuki in Yami no Matsuei, even Subaru and Seishiro in Tokyo Babylon before... well, if you've read it you know what *really* happens) are from BL stories, where the characters are explored and the relationships are developed. My favorite pairing is probably Chihiya and Kagetsuya from Earthian because their relationship is so realistic... they argue, they make up, they're loving and silly and mean to one another, they put up with each other's personality quirks, and they seem to truly be in love. Not the "I'm not gay but I can't help how I feel for this one particular guy!" types seen in a lot of yaoi. In fact, even with the harder stuff, I tend to like stories like Jazz and Skyscrapers of Oz where the characters are presented as gay, even if they don't necessarily come right out and say it.

Hmmm... I guess I do have one recommendation, and it's not a book but rather a movie: All Over The Guy. It's written by a gay man, and he's also one of the stars of the film. And to me, this is one of the best gay movies I've ever seen. It doesn't have any of the cliched stuff like circuit boys, drugs, disease, "coming of age" angst, or any of that. Instead it has a lot of humor, drama, and heart. The characters and their relationships with each other, their friends, and their families are at times comical but also truthful. It has hilarious cameos by Lisa Kudrow, Doris Roberts, and Christina Ricci, clever writing, and a relationship that really just shows two normal people, messed up and quirky just like everyone else, trying to make a connection.

[Animematt55]

I feel is a real shame because I think the overall pereception of gay men is that we're all living this Queer As Folk cliche lifestyle where we go to the clubs every night and the gyms every day,
having scoped out a few yaoi forums and talked with som eyaoi fangirls. I can vouche for this. They all thought that everythign was all pretty, and fun. The guys looked perfect, etc etc. 98% of them also wanted to be gay men, and they are the ones that had the smallest knowledge of real life too.

[typhonblue]

having scoped out a few yaoi forums and talked with som eyaoi fangirls. I can vouche for this. They all thought that everythign was all pretty, and fun. The guys looked perfect, etc etc. 98% of them also wanted to be gay men, and they are the ones that had the smallest knowledge of real life too.

AnimeMatt, would you read yuri if it was about the hair-lipped, 250lb ugly lesbians I know? Come to think of it, I've only met two lesbians who were skinny, most of them were overweight and unnattractive. And they were *vociferous* about their hatred of men.

Would you like to read stories about them?

I'd love to see a yuri story staring unnattractive, lesbians of size. And make sure to include one who's militant about her hatred of men. Because there is _always_ one. Lets see some reality enter into yuri.

BTW, Milky was presenting yaoi as an _alternative_ to stereotypes about gay men. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

[Animematt55]

i was saying that many girls have a distorted view on reality.

[April-san]

i was saying that many girls have a distorted view on reality.

So do many boys. :naughty:

[Animematt55]

So do many boys. :naughty:
right....like me...i am totally the king of the internet. :P

[earsofdoom]

AnimeMatt, would you read yuri if it was about the hair-lipped, 250lb ugly lesbians I know? Come to think of it, I've only met two lesbians who were skinny, most of them were overweight and unnattractive. And they were *vociferous* about their hatred of men.

Would you like to read stories about them?

I'd love to see a yuri story staring unnattractive, lesbians of size. And make sure to include one who's militant about her hatred of men. Because there is _always_ one. Lets see some reality enter into yuri.

BTW, Milky was presenting yaoi as an _alternative_ to stereotypes about gay men. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

I find it kinda ironic that you talked about an "alternative" to stereo-type's of gay men after enforceing a stereo-type about gay woman. im sure that not many ppl on this forum would be offended but there are some gay woman who certainly would be (they may not post all that often but they are here), like that comment i read quite awhile back about "red wing's" that directly offended two woman.

[Animematt55]

there are quite a few lesbians where i work. They are all a bit heavier, and really really short hair. Of course they are also a bit older than me, lol. But most of them are quite nice (one is kind of a *****, but that has nothing to do with being a lesbian). I knew a few lesbians in HS too....but i don't count them cause i think they are too young to figure themselves out.

[Milky Mixer]

Actaully, the quote Matt is lifting from my ramble was not geared towards yaoi fangirls at all but the general population of this country. I think Matt just wants to provoke rather than have an educated or mature conversation about this topic. To me, if you're going to be accepting of yuri, you need to be accepting of yaoi, whether it's something you personally enjoy reading or not. Stereotyping yaoi fan girls (and yes, there are some who do have it wrong when it comes to what being a gay man is all about... but Matt, you're not exactly coming across as all that informed yourself) isn't going to further this discussion.

What I was actually saying is that I feel it's a shame that there are not more books by gay male writers that debunk the stereotyped idea that a lot of people have of gay men as QAF cliche, drug addict, perfect bodied, shallow **** types of people. I'm not speaking of yaoi or mannga here, I'm not speaking of stories created by straight women about what they think gay men do. I'm talking about the lack of representation of "real" gay men in fiction by gay writers outside of the cliches and stereotypes. It's like perpetuating a stereotype. It's like the whole gangsta rap thing perpetuating a stereotype of black people. Rather than overcoming the stereotype and saying "This is who we are, we are real everyday people, we're every bit as similar and complicated and normal and whatever else as you" a lot of gay writers seem to put out crap that perpetuates an image I feel isn't reflective of the majority of gay men. And as such, it is difficult for me to find books that I enjoy or that speak to me and my own life.

But I don't think I see yaoi as an alternative to stereotypes about gay men, either. It's just not the *same* stereotype that gay men seem to be writing about. Like I said, to me yaoi is more of an idealized fantasy about straight men, but with one of the straight men being a stand-in for a woman. That's why I said it's comical to me to see a lot of the men in yaoi saying "Oh, but I'm not gay! I don't know what's come over me! I don't know why I have these feelings for this one other guy! I'm not gay but I'm gonna let him stick his d!ck in my a$$ and immediately think it feels really good." No the hell way!! Straight men wouldn't do this. And gay men who *know* they are gay aren't likely to have the "Oh, what's come over me!" moments. But not all yaoi bothers me, and I don't mean to give that impression. Sometimes the manga-ka can really create enough character moments that the relationships feel real and the idea that the uke is a stand-in for a woman blurs or goes away altogether. The uke no longer seems like a girl with a penis but instead seems like a *character* with his own personality, quirks and all, sometimes feminine, sometimes not, sometimes impuslive, sometimes hard-headed or abrasive, fiesty, timid, whatever. Eh, but just like with anything, some of it's gonna be handled really well and pull you into the story and some of it's gonna be cheese. And some of it's just going to have that spark or that special qaulity or that weird off-the-wall element that attracts you. I mean, if you look at the US manga market, not just the yaoi market but the entire market and all of the stuff that's been licensed and released by Tokyopop and ADV and Viz and DMP and whoever else, you can't say ALL of the titles hitting the States are good ones. It's the same with yaoi. And gay fiction. Heh.

[Milky Mixer]

I like lesbians.

[typhonblue]

I find it kinda ironic that you talked about an "alternative" to stereo-type's of gay men after enforceing a stereo-type about gay woman. im sure that not many ppl on this forum would be offended but there are some gay woman who certainly would be (they may not post all that often but they are here), like that comment i read quite awhile back about "red wing's" that directly offended two woman.

I'm not enforcing a stereotype about gay women, I'm making an observation about the lesbians I've met.

Just like Matt is making an observation about the yaoi fans *he's* met.

Believe me, many of the lesbians I've met would have lots to say about yuri and the idealization of lesbians. And none of it would be complimentary.

As for the "stereotype" that lesbians hate men. I have only met two lesbians who did not go out of their way to say negative things about men. And I've met lesbian-seperatists who refuse to have anything *at all* to do with men. Including purchasing items from men, talking to men, even seeing men at all. Their preference would be to live in a world without men.

In conclusion, yuri is a fantasy for men(and some women). I've also noticed that 98% of yuri fanboys are resentful of yaoi fan girls.

[Animematt55]

I like lesbians.
ME TOO! and they like what i like!

[typhonblue]

ME TOO! and they like what i like!

I doubt it.

Seriously, Matt. None of the lesbians I know look like the women in Yuri. None of them.

But I just might be stereotyping lesbians as actual human beings who are trying to defy western beauty standards for women.

[Animematt55]

It was a joke, it is kinda of an internet meme.

[earsofdoom]

In conclusion, yuri is a fantasy for men(and some women). I've also noticed that 98% of yuri fanboys are resentful of yaoi fan girls.

I find that quite comical when i remember reading not to long ago you boasting about how Yaoi was fixing men's relationship's and that it was the cure for homophobia and all these wonderful things but on the flipside you call the other genre a "fantasy for men".

http://www.yuricon.org/links.html

I could express my own oppinion but rather i think it would be much easier to just post that link. run by woman with several link's to other site's run by woman to promote female auther's of this "male fantasy".

This forum is unbelievably biased, ppl seem to be in favor of supporting one minority while picking on the other. Why is it that ppl like Milky are the only one's not promoting one side and bashing the other? I have great respect for him becouse he's merely stateing his own oppinion without taking crack's at woman, straight men, or anyone else just becouse some ppl may disagree with him. (by "ppl like milky" I didn't mean to point out anything, sry if it sound's that way milky)

[ZoharContact]

This forum is unbelievably biased, ppl seem to be in favor of supporting one minority while picking on the other. Why is it that ppl like Milky are the only one's not promoting one side and bashing the other? I have great respect for him becouse he's merely stateing his own oppinion without taking crack's at woman, straight men, or anyone else just becouse some ppl may disagree with him. (by "ppl like milky" I didn't mean to point out anything, sry if it sound's that way milky)I like lesbians.We like you too, Milky!things <_< I wash my hands of you.

[typhonblue]

I find that quite comical when i remember reading not to long ago you boasting about how Yaoi was fixing men's relationship's and that it was the cure for homophobia and all these wonderful things but on the flipside you call the other genre a "fantasy for men".

Yuri is a fantasy for men. Likewise Yaoi is a fantasy for women.

Why Yaoi will change the world? Because it challenges prevailing assumptions about women and sexuality. Yuri DOESN'T.

In our society men liking lesbians is perfectly acceptable. Women liking gay men is not.

The idea of women desiring men sexually is taboo, in fact its so taboo it's a completely invisible taboo. There have been so many straight men who've said, to my face, that they do not understand how I can like men. I feel weird everytime I say I think men are more attractive then women. People look at me strangely, like I'm a freak. Other women, even straight ones, struggle with desiring men sexually. It's frowned upon in our society, every woman who is shown desiring men is also shown to be undesirable and physically unnattractive in media.

There is even that stereotype about Yaoi-fangirls. Why? Because they like men. Worse, they like men who like men! Ye Gods! Break out the brown-bags and muu-muus, heard of cows coming through!

Further Women don't *need* any more encouragement in their relationships with eachother. Almost every expression of intimacy between women has been normalized in our society.

However every expression of intimacy that doesn't involve potential violence is ostracised between men.


This forum is unbelievably biased, ppl seem to be in favor of supporting one minority while picking on the other.

Excuse me. I merely offered observations on a group of people in an identical manner to Matt.

Those were my experiences, just as he's had certain experiences of yaoi-fangirls.

Why, exactly, are my experiences so much less kosher then his?

I'm pointing out that Yuri is no more about reality then Yaoi. And that Yuri fanboys don't have any more understanding of lesbians as Yaoi-fangirls have of gay men.

I also pulled a statistic out of my *** in the same way Matt did. 98% of yuri-fanboys resent yaoi-fangirls.

As for lesbians... The truth is I have met a lot of man-hating lesbians. (I used to hang out in a lesbian bar for c-sake) I don't know if they are just particularly outspoken or if I end up meeting more of them more often for some reason. I've also met guys, in said lesbian bar, who got really upset when the women spoiled the whole fantasy image for them by talking openly about female bodily functions.

[typhonblue]

Having said what I have said... One of the nicest people I've ever met was a lesbian as well.

And there was another lesbian I knew who didn't hate men and I got on fairly well with her too.

But *both* of these women talked about how crazy other lesbians could be with the man-hating.

I know there are lesbians who don't hate men, but darnit, the ones that do are so loud and in your face about it. At least my face.

Even my father has had a bad experince with lesbian seperatists. My mom was the organizer for the first take back the night march in my province. My father volunteered to serve drinks. One lesbian seperatist there refused to take the drink he made for her because a man had touched it.

That reminded me of the way Saudi men would treat unveiled women when I lived in the middle east. They wouldn't touch us, even to give out change. There are cultures and subcultures that teach people to revile the opposite sex, and as much as I want to be generous to the lesbians who aren't like that, there are quite a few that are. Just like most men in Saudi wouldn't be revolted by a casual touch from a woman, but the ones that were colored my impressions of the ones that weren't.

[DazzleKitty]

This forum is unbelievably biased, ppl seem to be in favor of supporting one minority while picking on the other.

Actually, I hate to say this, but I think the yuri fans were the ones who started all this. Actually, Matt started it. Then others added their comments, and the yaoi fans got on the defensive. I dislike the people who are biased. I try not to be biased about what I like, but I don't know if I succeed all the time.

And typhonblue, I agree with all of what you say. Then again, I am almost afraid to say that because I know a majority of the posters here won't. I know lots of people WILL disagree with this, but I think she is right about women's attraction to men being a taboo. If a girl even likes to have lots of sex, it's wrong and she's a wh*re. On the other hand, it's fine for a guy. Most of the stuff on the porn market is male-oriented. My own father thinks it's wrong that I like yaoi, yet he loves how most country music videos have half-naked girls parading around in it (and I know he used to watch girl on girl stuff for a fact). I even mentioned how I would like more videos like that but with guys, and he said "Women are supposed to be proper. They don't like to see that kind of stuff." :rolleyes:
Also, I have noticed that I NEVER see yuri fans bashed. And if I do, it's from frustrated yaoi fans who are sick of yuri fans attacking them. In the main part of this forum, yuri is discussed without problem in some threads. However, if yaoi gets brought up, everyone starts to make sarcastic comments. I frequent another yaoi forum, and two yuri fans (one of them being Matt, another being someone who posted here a while back) sometimes go there and try to convert the yaoi fans to prefering yuri. Then, I go to a yuri forum to see that no one goes there to try to 'yaoi-ize' them. It's really annoying.

[typhonblue]

I think it's more then women just needing to be "proper" because I think this really hurts men as well as women.

Because women are taught not to desire men sexually, men have *no* sexual power. And sexual power is something that shouldn't be denied a person based on gender.

I also think that the phenomena you've experienced, Dazzle, is a part of that.

I think guys feel really uncomfortable being desired, worse having some part of them (the part that is attracted nonsexually or otherwise to other men) admired and desired by women when they have gone to such lengths to destroy and eradicate it.

It creates a dissonance that I think causes some guys serious conflict. On the one hand they want women to have sex with them to prove they aren't gay(or gain manhood or somesuch) but on the other hand women are being turned on by gayness, so acting gay may actually enhance their success with women. (Some Speed Seducers have tried this to good effect.)

It's a really stupid catch-22. I blame society. Actually, I blame Victorian women.

[Animematt55]

[QUOTE=typhonblue]Yuri is a fantasy for men. Likewise Yaoi is a fantasy for women.

Why Yaoi will change the world? Because it challenges prevailing assumptions about women and sexuality. Yuri DOESN'T.
[n/QUOTE]
that is very ignorant of you.
first of all, not counting the hentai....yuri is made for women. And yes yuri does challenge prevailing assumptions about women. Heck, it is even better for women than Yaoi, cause they are women. Instead of saying that a woman needs a man to be happy and all that.....they show that women DONT need a maan to be happy.

[same_animefan]

[QUOTE=typhonblue]Yuri is a fantasy for men. Likewise Yaoi is a fantasy for women.

Why Yaoi will change the world? Because it challenges prevailing assumptions about women and sexuality. Yuri DOESN'T.
[n/QUOTE]
that is very ignorant of you.
first of all, not counting the hentai....yuri is made for women. And yes yuri does challenge prevailing assumptions about women. Heck, it is even better for women than Yaoi, cause they are women. Instead of saying that a woman needs a man to be happy and all that.....they show that women DONT need a maan to be happy.

OK, while I don't agree that Yaoi is going to change the world anymore than Yuri, that last comment of yours urks me. Yuri doesn't dipict real women anymore than yaoi depicts real gay men.

Why the hell his Yuri "good" for women? Yeah, any women raised to think on her own knows they don't need a man to be happy. At the same time, how is a media that shows the love between two girls any better? To show that you don't need a man, you can just like girls instead. That doesn't make any sense, and I have no idea where you got that rather pathetic conclusion.

If you want a story about a women going off on her own and being happy with it, than there wouldn't be any partnered man or women involved.

Their is no difference in watching het, yaoi or yuri in that aspect. And if you really want to say "Yuri is better for women because their women," than how about this, which makes just as much sense "Yaoi is better for men because their men." Now, that makes such oerfect sense, doesn't it?

[typhonblue]

[QUOTE=typhonblue]Yuri is a fantasy for men. Likewise Yaoi is a fantasy for women.

Why Yaoi will change the world? Because it challenges prevailing assumptions about women and sexuality. Yuri DOESN'T.
[n/QUOTE]
that is very ignorant of you.
first of all, not counting the hentai....yuri is made for women. And yes yuri does challenge prevailing assumptions about women. Heck, it is even better for women than Yaoi, cause they are women. Instead of saying that a woman needs a man to be happy and all that.....they show that women DONT need a maan to be happy.

What this society needs is more appreciation of men's sexuality not less. And I really hate the attitude that I'm somehow a sell-out to womankind because I love my husband and he makes me happy.

Not every woman needs a man, and we *are* told this over and over again (for instance, never once in my life have I been told that I need a man to be happy) but the kind of pressures put on *men* to find women is unbelievable.

And I never said yaoi was good for women, Matt, I said it was good for MEN. It's good to get rid of those taboos that are stopping men from forming intimate frienships and I think yaoi/BL can help do that.

Yuri may do the same for women, but it's not needed as badly. And won't be until gay men feel safe kissing in public like many lesbians do, and straight men don't castrate their same-sex friendships for the sake of not looking gay.

Regardless, mine is probably a minority opinion amoung yaoi-fans. So don't go saying 98% of yaoi-fans think that yaoi can cure world hunger, staph infections, war and cancer.

[Lockheart]

that is very ignorant of you.

What irony, coming from the King of ignorance himself.

[DazzleKitty]

that is very ignorant of you.
first of all, not counting the hentai....yuri is made for women. And yes yuri does challenge prevailing assumptions about women. Heck, it is even better for women than Yaoi, cause they are women. Instead of saying that a woman needs a man to be happy and all that.....they show that women DONT need a maan to be happy.

You shouldn't be calling anyone ignorant.

Yuri is not better for women than yaoi. Actually, I don't think either yaoi or yuri is 'better' for women. It all depends on what they like. And if you want to say yuri is better for women, then yaoi must be better for guys. And if that would be true, you should be reading yaoi like we should be reading yuri.

I don't see anyone saying a woman needs a man to be happy. As typhonblue says, oftentimes it's bad for a woman to really want a man. Often in movies I will see a woman who is snubbing a man, thinking she's better than all of them, and it's okay for her to act as if no man is needed in her life. However, if a guy snubs women, he is taken as either a jerk, chauvanistic, or gay.

Women dont' need a man to be happy. Women just happen to be *attracted* to men. Matt, it's like you view that as a bad thing. What do you want, all girls to be lesbians? (I know there are lesbians here, and please don't take offense to that. I am just trying to see through Matt's ignorance.)

[Animematt55]

yes, i ment yuri is better for women because it centers around women...
I dont see where your coming from the typhon when you say Yaoi challenges prevailing assumptions about women and sexuality....the stories don't even have women....sure women read it, but i know a lot of women that watch regular hentai too.....

[same_animefan]

Alright, define what you mean by "better" Matt. Just because a character is female, and a viewer is female, does not mean that she will relate to the character. And if the fact that Yuri centers around females is all that you are going off of, than the reverse, by your ideas, is ideal for men.

[GokuMew2]

yes, i ment yuri is better for women because it centers around women...
I dont see where your coming from the typhon when you say Yaoi challenges prevailing assumptions about women and sexuality....the stories don't even have women....sure women read it, but i know a lot of women that watch regular hentai too.....
*gets up from comfy lawn chair*

This was already explained to you. Yaoi does not have many female characters, true. But going back to the origins of yaoi, the uke originally represented the female character. That's how women are "in" the stories. And if you actually understood what I was saying in my research paper, you would know that yaoi is used to show how people transcend barriers. Male relationships overcoming society's homophobia represent women overcoming their perceived gender roles. That said, women have a lot to do with yaoi even if the characters are almost all male.

And Matt, if you are not a woman then don't go telling us what is good or better for us. Do you remember why you were temporarily banned from the forum? Stop being sexist.

[Animematt55]

Well yes, the characters are female so the viewer can relate to them better.
Typhon has said soemthign about male friendships being reduced....Yaoi could be good for that...ask her to explain it better...

But remember...they are all just TV shows....Neither of them (Yaoi included) will change the world.

But the Uke usually represents soemthing that women generally dont like (wimpy, whiny, girly, getting walked all over, etc etc etc.) These are the qualities that make girls hate anime females so much

[Yuu Kanda]

yes, i ment yuri is better for women because it centers around women...


That's one of the dumbest things I've heard you say so far. It may be better for an individual person depending on that person's likes and dislikes - but not for a whole group of people based on gender.

Secondly, how would you even know? You're not a woman. So don't make assumptions you can't even be sure of.

And Dazzlekitty is right. Using your (il)logic, yaoi is good for men because it centers around men.

And EDIT:

Well yes, the characters are female so the viewer can relate to them better.


Uh, no. I can't speak for everyone, but the majority of females depicted in anime I can't relate to at all. On the contrary, I can relate to the males a lot more, which is one of the reasons I like stories with guys as main characters. That's just me, but I don't think I'm the only girl that is like this.

[GokuMew2]

But the Uke usually represents soemthing that women generally dont like (wimpy, whiny, girly, getting walked all over, etc etc etc.) These are the qualities that make girls hate anime females so much
Just as there are strong female characters, there are also strong uke characters.

[Animematt55]

Just as there are strong female characters, there are also strong uke characters.
then what is the appeal of Gravitation?

[GokuMew2]

then what is the appeal of Gravitation?
It's funny.

[Animematt55]

It's funny.
i mean Yuki....he is so well liked, but basically change his sex...and he would be one of the most hated characters.

[DazzleKitty]

Well yes, the characters are female so the viewer can relate to them better.

Then I guess shows like Sukisho and Gakuen Heaven would be prefect for men, since all the characters are men and could be understood by them better. You should watch those and like them, since they are good for you and you will identify with them.
Of course, you will deny that. Even though if you used your logic in reverse, that would only make sense. I know for a fact you already dislike Sukisho anyways, even though by your own reasoning you can 'relate to it better'.

I can relate to some female characters, and then some I can't. Tons of shounen anime depicts females in a way I can't relate to them at all. Just because someone is the opposite gender doesn't mean you can't relate to them. There are lots of anime men I can relate to, and some I can't.

i mean Yuki....he is so well liked, but basically change his sex...and he would be one of the most hated characters.

If his sex was changed, it wouldn't be yaoi anymore, and the yaoi fans wouldn't watch it. And I thought you were refering to weak, crybaby characters? Yuki doesn't fit that.

I don't like an abundance of crybaby female characters (it's okay every now and then), and I like some male crybaby characters (Shuichi being one). As mentioned before, there are strong ukes like there are strong females.
Also, I think fangirls don't like their own gender portrayed as weak. That's what I have heard some of them say.

[Animematt55]

ah sorry...i ment Shuichi, not Yuki...
Sukisho had ok main characters....Ran was a little *****y though....everyone else was just too annoying....

[DazzleKitty]

If yuri is good for women, shouldn't yaoi be good for men? Matt, I really want to hear what you have to say to this. Come on, do tell!
Sorry to egg this on, but he never gave me a response to this. I want to hear what he has to say.

[Animematt55]

i did respond.....Typhon can explain it better. She knows more about the whole detiororation of male friendships than me...

[ZoharContact]

I think it's more then women just needing to be "proper" because I think this really hurts men as well as women.

Because women are taught not to desire men sexually, men have *no* sexual power. And sexual power is something that shouldn't be denied a person based on gender.I agree completely. And it's like I said, discrimination is like Newton's third law. Similarly, when you consider that women are taught not to desire men, on the other side of the spectrum, men are discouraged from having romantic interests. Am I wrong? A paradox related to this is the tendency for yuri (consider me to be eliminating hentai from the equation, it seems apparent that very few yuri fans watch it... I think) to focus more on romance than physical attraction.It creates a dissonance that I think causes some guys serious conflict. On the one hand they want women to have sex with them to prove they aren't gay(or gain manhood or somesuch)More to prove that they are manly. In other words, to separate themselves from women. And yes, the dissonance is very destructive. It is likely what causes many men to *hate* other men, which is why gay men are so much worse off than gay women.It's a really stupid catch-22. I blame society. Actually, I blame Victorian women.That sounds like sarcasm, but I'll just say anyway, this is something we've all been perpetuating. And yes, men-haters do not help at all.

[typhonblue]

Well yes, the characters are female so the viewer can relate to them better.
Typhon has said soemthign about male friendships being reduced....Yaoi could be good for that...ask her to explain it better...

*sigh* Matt... Male intimacy in the west is ostracised because men think being gay is undesirable.

If being gay is seen as desirable (not *more* desirable then being straight, just not undesirable) men will be less likely to fear being seeing as gay by being intimate(non-sexually and otherwise) with eachother.

The other point I made is that, in our society, it is taboo for women to find men sexually attractive. Yaoi challenges this taboo by presenting an all-male media that women... find sexually attractive.

But remember...they are all just TV shows....Neither of them (Yaoi included) will change the world.

Everything has the potential to change the world. How do you think the world changes? Do you really think all the "big players" change the world, or is it changed, on the ground, by the people?

But the Uke usually represents soemthing that women generally dont like (wimpy, whiny, girly, getting walked all over, etc etc etc.) These are the qualities that make girls hate anime females so much

In bad yaoi the uke may be a stand-in for a woman. But saying that is the normative definition of yaoi (yaoi needs a weepy uke) is a disservice. It's like saying Science Fiction isn't Science Fiction without a pie plate on a string. That is a characteristic of _bad_ Sci-Fi, not a characteristic of _all_ Sci-Fi. Being able to write believable, vulnerable yet masculine characters is a talent that few artists posess. Partly because there aren't a lot of role models and partly because it's easier to write a caricature of male vulnerability.

[typhonblue]

More to prove that they are manly. In other words, to separate themselves from women.

I agree, although I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing except when its taken to the extremes that it is in our society.

Men are different then women, they have a different identity and wanting to seperate from mom and find that identity is a big part of growing up for guys. And, when you're young and testing yourself out, you tend to be silly, agressive and a bit boorish.

I don't think men have to *want* to be like women to respect women.

I like and respect men, but I don't want to be one. There are some traits I admire and I try to adopt that I find men have moreso then women, but I still prefer to be me.

[ZoharContact]

I don't think men have to *want* to be like women to respect women.What does it mean to "be like a woman," though? I think it's a problem when sensitivity, empathy, and consideration for other people are viewed as womanly traits.

And on the other hand, it would be destructive to assume that boorishness, violence, and interest in sex are manly traits.

I would just like for people to grow up and be themselves without feeling the pressure of being pushed into a manufactured role.

[April-san]

The other point I made is that, in our society, it is taboo for women to find men sexually attractive. Yaoi challenges this taboo by presenting an all-male media that women... find sexually attractive.

Wow. Flashback time.
I remember when my Mother was telling me about the birds and the bees (SEX! Why does everyone have trouble with that three letter word?!), and one of the differences between boys and girls was that boys could become aroused (my word, not hers) with pictures. Girls do not. I really felt abnormal when I first discovered Yaoi and found it sexually attractive.

Sorry about the sidenote. I'm so glad I can discuss these things with others, now. I'm not (that) strange! I'm not alone!

[typhonblue]

Wow. Flashback time.
I remember when my Mother was telling me about the birds and the bees (SEX! Why does everyone have trouble with that three letter word?!), and one of the differences between boys and girls was that boys could become aroused (my word, not hers) with pictures. Girls do not. I really felt abnormal when I first discovered Yaoi and found it sexually attractive.

Perhaps the issue isn't lack of desire, but lack of media that _caters_ to that desire. :)

[Animematt55]

Perhaps the issue isn't lack of desire, but lack of media that _caters_ to that desire. :)
Not at all. It was her mom...she lived in an older time. Back then women werent really supposed to look at stuff liek that and such.

[Milky Mixer]

Jeesh, a guy goes to work and all hell breaks loose around this place...

First of all, I have to say, I never realized there was such a competition between yuri and yaoi. Maybe because I like both. But I don't understand why one can be condemned while the other gets praised. They're two sides of the same coin to me. Seems more like a bit of insecurity if you've got to have such a passionate dislike for one but want to "turn everyone on" to the one you do like.

It's kinda like the straight guys getting all weirded out by yaoi because they're uncomfortable with gay male themes. Maybe they're insecure with their own sexuality, but really it has more to do with them being insecure about how others are going to perceive them. If you're a straight guy and yaoi doesn't phase you or weird you out, then all of your straight buddies are going to laugh at you and call you gay, right? And we all know it's a bad thing to be gay. *sarcasm* So might as well whoop it up and act all grossed out to prove you don't have a gay bone in your body. I know the yaoi girls get a bad reputation for being all squealy and giggly (some of them are though) and trying to pair up every male character they can, canon or not, but to me that is less annoying than the disrespect and overly exagerrated disgust that most straight guys and even a number of women have to display when it comes to yaoi. When I see 13 year old girls at bookstores laughing and making mean remarks about yaoi and being so terribly grossed out by something that is "gay," I try to tell myself, ok, they're young, they don't even know what "gay" really is and have probably never met a gay person or seen that it's a normal part of the world and that gay people are just like everyone else. They've been taught to have that reaction. But when I see grown men and women at conventions making rude remarks or laughing or getting all worked up and "grossed out," that's when I just feel really insulted. Because regardless of how you feel about yaoi, how it started, what it "really" means, whether the uke is a woman or not, etc., to me that's just a slap in the face as a gay person to have to listen to some straight person who has never had to go through the real life traumas of coming out to family or being harrassed on a daily basis bursting into laughter or groaning and gagging (and these are the bad groans and gags). I mean, get a brain, think for yourself, don't have that childish reaction just because you've been taught to act like that by some societal rule that says gay men are bad or weak or effeminite or strange and you don't want to be put into that same classification. Is it too much trouble to learn about compassion or at the very least show a little respect?

Meanwhile, throw a couple of hot chicks up on a screen going to town with each other and suddenly everyone's excited. It's hypocritical. This thread seems to be deteriorating and I have to say, it really seems like some people around here are being intentionally closed minded. Particularly Matt. Matt, that's all good and fine if you don't like yaoi, I don't actually see anyone here trying to force you to like it and you come here of your own free choice, but please don't force your opinions (some of which are not informed at all) on the rest of us as if they are facts. If you want to talk about yuri and your like of yuri, that's fine, but realize that our opinions and our feelings are all as valid as yours, including our like of yaoi. You don't need to make this into a competition. Like I said above, I happen to like both yaoi and yuri. If you don't or can't like both, that's ok, but don't go on about your dislike of one, just celebrate the one you do like and shut up and leave it at that. And I'm sorry, but deferring to Typhon when you were asked multiple times about your own statement "yuri is good for women because it depicts women" so thusly yaoi us good for men because it depicts men, that was a total copout. You sure haven't had any problems explaining yourself so far, heck, you even know what's good for women when you're not a woman, but when someone asks you based on your statement if that makes "yaoi good for men because it depicts men" you suddenly can't explain yourself and don't know about guys or relationships with guys? I don't mean romantic relationships, I mean friendships, rivals, whatever kinds of relationships guys have with other guys. If you're going to make these broad statements and present them in a know-it-all manner as if they are fact, then at least have the balls to step up and answer a question when someone puts it to you point blank.

The fact is none of us are the same. We may have similar interests, but even then we may come at them for totally different reasons. What's good for one person may not be good for the other. But damn, can't we all just enjoy the things we enjoy without having to be pidgeon-holed into having rules and roles and whatever else. The reason I like yaoi may not be the same as the reason Dazzle does, the reason Matt likes yuri may not be the reason I like yuri. Trying to establish some kind of law as to why we all like this stuff is just unfair to all of us.

[GokuMew2]

i did respond.....Typhon can explain it better. She knows more about the whole detiororation of male friendships than me...
Man, that's... weak.
As Milky pointed out, you're totally just passing the baton. Why should someone else be needed to explain your logic? I mean, shouldn't you know yourself the best? If you're gonna use "deterioration of male friendships" or whatever as your reason, then I think you should at least know enough to explain it and back up your arguments yourself.

[Animematt55]

never said i hated Yaoi....I am jsut saying it isnt the best thing ever in the world, and it has made a lot of dangerous confused fans out there. Most of the BL i have read actually had very poor characters, and character development.
And GokuMew2....what was the question i was suppsoed to answer?

[GokuMew2]

never said i hated Yaoi....I am jsut saying it isnt the best thing ever in the world, and it has made a lot of dangerous confused fans out there. Most of the BL i have read actually had very poor characters, and character development.
And GokuMew2....what was the question i was suppsoed to answer?
Dude-- No one ever said that yaoi was the best thing in the world! Dangerous and confused fans? You could say the same for yuri fans... Those who think that all women are better as lesbians and should watch yuri because it's about women. And in case you don't get it, I'm talking about you. You're quite delusional in how you think women should behave and what they should like.

Just because the few stories you've read had poor characters and character development does not mean that all of them do. To say that they all do would be like me saying that all yuri has no plot and that there are no emotional relationships between the females, which is something I'm sure you would not agree to.

You know what's funny? Yaoi was created to counter people just like you who think they know what's best for women and how they should act. So you could say in a way that you, and people like you, had a hand in its creation.

I mean, come on. I've seen in another thread that a male yuri fan came forward to reassure the yaoi fans that not all yuri fans were like you. So what's the point of arguing with the yaoi fans? You're not representing any great cause.

[DazzleKitty]

I want to say good job to Milky Mixer, because I enjoyed reading what he said and felt it was very true.

never said i hated Yaoi....I am jsut saying it isnt the best thing ever in the world, and it has made a lot of dangerous confused fans out there. Most of the BL i have read actually had very poor characters, and character development.
And GokuMew2....what was the question i was suppsoed to answer?

I haven't seen anyone here say it was the best thing in the world. A lot of fans may think so, but that's just their own personal opinion.

Just because you felt the yaoi you read wasn't good doesn't mean that everyone who read them will feel that way. From the looks of it, you haven't even read that much anyways.
I bet if some fangirl was saying how she felt all the yuri she read had poor character developement and a crappy plot, you'd jump all over her and want a huge novel to back up her reasons.
It's like, no matter what we say, you will pick yaoi apart. I've seen a lot of people here say some excellent things, and if they can't get through to you, no one will. You always find some excuse to nitpick or avoid answering certain questions. Why bother even coming here to argue? I find this whole thing ironic. You claim to be a yuri fan, but I never see you post in any of the yuri threads. You waste your time coming here to argue about pointless things instead.
I don't even care if you or anyone hates yaoi. I just wish you didn't have to say it every chance you get, or argue with the fans about it.

[typhonblue]

never said i hated Yaoi....I am jsut saying it isnt the best thing ever in the world, and it has made a lot of dangerous confused fans out there. Most of the BL i have read actually had very poor characters, and character development.

Aside from the fact that I dislike people pointing to a work of media and blaming it for the actions of human-beings... WHAT?

Where are these confused, deranged, DANGEROUS yaoi fangirls? The most I've ever heard a yaoi fangirl do is paddle a lesbian. And as much as that is insensitive and disrespectful, you're going to have to present more evidence of the crazed and dangerous yaoi fangirl before I believe you.

As for saying yaoi is the best thing in the world, or that yaoi is better then yuri, or that yaoi will have an effect on society and yuri won't...

First of all, like DK said, no one has declared yaoi the best thing in the world. Second of all, I don't think yaoi is better then yuri, despite the fact that I believe yaoi can change our part of the world for the better. (Which, I may add, is a minority view-point among yaoi fans.)

Let me explain using an analogy. Letsay yuri is an anti-biotic and yaoi is an anti-viral. Both are important, and both are useful in different situations.

Our current society is suffering from a malignant virus that attacks intimacy between men. Treating it with an anti-biotic changes nothing. It needs an anti-viral.

However if we were in a society where intimacy between women was suppressed, yuri would be making positive change.

Does that mean yaoi is better for society in general then yuri? No, it's just better in _this_ situation.

And GokuMew2....what was the question i was suppsoed to answer?

If yuri is good for women, then, but extension, yaoi is good for men. Is that statement true or false? And why?

[{NG}Fidel]

I would just like for people to grow up and be themselves without feeling the pressure of being pushed into a manufactured role.
Awsome, I 100% agree with you.
But even with that concept some people go out on the defensive and attack girls for being too Girly or Guys for being to Manly (Whatever those terms mean). I have always subscribed to the 'If I like it I like it' way of life. Allthough not 100% (Drugs even if I did like I would shy away from). People are people and we are diverse. lets let that be.
Funny thing is I have not really watched/read any yaoi or yuri but I jump into this thread allot.

[Milky Mixer]

Awsome, I 100% agree with you.
But even with that concept some people go out on the defensive and attack girls for being too Girly or Guys for being to Manly (Whatever those terms mean). I have always subscribed to the 'If I like it I like it' way of life. Allthough not 100% (Drugs even if I did like I would shy away from). People are people and we are diverse. lets let that be.
Funny thing is I have not really watched/read any yaoi or yuri but I jump into this thread allot.

That's 'cause you stand for liberation, freedom, and equality. You *are* on board the Arcadia, rememeber? ;)

[333jeffery]

I think Matt "protests too much" when it comes to yaoi....

[Milky Mixer]

never said i hated Yaoi....I am jsut saying it isnt the best thing ever in the world, and it has made a lot of dangerous confused fans out there. Most of the BL i have read actually had very poor characters, and character development.
And GokuMew2....what was the question i was suppsoed to answer?

Dangerous!?! :blink: If my two options are naive yaoi fans romanticizing gay relationships based on what they read in yaoi or the folks condemning, laughing at, and hating yaoi simply because it's "gay," I'll take the confused yaoi fans. They may have things wrong, but who is their exuberance hurting?

Also Matt, I don't think you're actually taking the time to read my posts or anyone else's posts. I hate to gang up on you, but it seems with each reply you are digging yourself in deeper. Were you reading what the rest of us were posting, you would have noticed the question that was put to you *multiple* times.

And if your argument is that most of the BL you've read has poor characters and character development, hello, wouldn't you agree that a lot of anime and manga in general has poor characters and character development? Sure, there's some great stuff out there, but there's also quite a bit of cheese out there too. Doesn't make it bad for people to like it, but at least recognize that not everything is going to be a highbrow critical earthshaking revelation about the human condition - in yaoi, yuri, or anime/manga in general. Some of it's fantasy, some of it's comedic, and some of it's downright dumb. It's all a matter of opinion anyway, darling. I mean, it seems quite a bit of anime fans think FLCL is the bee's knees and I just find it silly and dull. Besides, why do you care if BL is bad or not? I mean, there are those of us who do like it and as "dangerous" as you think we are, who are we hurting? I'll agree, there's some cheesy BL but there's also some good stuff and if you're not into it, that's all good and fine. But you don't see any of us trying to piss in your cereal.

[GokuMew2]

I have always subscribed to the 'If I like it I like it' way of life.
Suki na mono wa suki dakara shouganai. :P

[{NG}Fidel]

Gasp.
Suki na mono wa suki dakara shouganai
What does it mean.
I know English, Spanish, and a wee bit of German but no Japanese.


That's 'cause you stand for liberation, freedom, and equality. You *are* on board the Arcadia, rememeber?
Your very right, and of all people I forgot.

[ZoharContact]

Gasp.

What does it mean.
I know English, Spanish, and a wee bit of German but no Japanese."I like what I like, and I can't help it."

[Milky Mixer]

"I like what I like, and I can't help it."

That's a sweet, truthful statement.

NGFidel has reminded me I really need to get a copy of Arcadia of My Youth while I may still have the chance, as I heard it's out of print now. I believe Harlock Saga was just retired as well. Sorry, off topic. I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion already in progress.

[typhonblue]

"I like what I like, and I can't help it."

How about... "I like what I like, and I don't want to help it."

[{NG}Fidel]

Thanks Zophar contract.
Yeah basicly its how I live.
well ok not that simple but explaining that is hard.
And yes Lejiverse just for Emeraldas.

[Milky Mixer]

How about... "I like what I like, and I don't want to help it."

That one works too. :D

[ZoharContact]

How about... "I like what I like, and I don't want to help it."It would make a better life policy, but in Japanese it would be like...
"Suki na mono ha suki dakara, shiyou ga nakutemo ii." Or something like that.

Or for something even stronger, "Suki na mono ga suki da yo. Hito no iken nado kankei nai." Or, "I like what I like. People's opinions have no bearing on that."

...Okay. I'll stop showing off.

[DazzleKitty]

That's cool, Zohar. I can't wait till I can do that well speaking in Japanese someday. Ah, that's years down the road. :P

[ZoharContact]

Oh, yeah! Japanese is the best. And no matter what anyone tells you, play games, watch anime, and read lots of anything.

My girlfriend took it for two years. And of course, she doesn't remember hardly any of it, now. <_<

[Kaosgirl]

How about... "I like what I like, and I don't want to help it."

I'm a bit more open, personally. I like what I like, but I'll listen to why I shouldn't. Unless it's a really good argument, though, I'll just wind up liking it more.

[same_animefan]

Yeah ^^ this thread turned around. And I like that saying ^_^ I should remember that...though I'll still forget it >> Damn I want to learn Japanese x-x just no time for it.

Oh? That sucks. Did she take it in school or as a seperate course later? xD Of course, I took three years of French in high school and all I remeber is "Je ne paral pa France"..."I dont' speak french" xD And I probably spelt it wrong too XD.(of course, I got a D for two of those years >_>; *cough*)

[GokuMew2]

What does it mean.
I know English, Spanish, and a wee bit of German but no Japanese.
Others have already answered, but yeah, it pretty much means "I like the things I like and there's no helping it." I sort of meant it as a pun since Suki na Mono wa Suki Dakara Shouganai!! is the full title of Sukisho!.

Of course, I took three years of French in high school and all I remeber is "Je ne paral pa France"..."I dont' speak french" xD And I probably spelt it wrong too XD.(of course, I got a D for two of those years >_>; *cough*)
Hehe, "je ne parle pas francais" is what you wanted. .^^ I took a couple years of French in high school myself but I don't remember much (though this is one phrase I'll never forget). Taking it again from the beginning in college now since foreign language majors need a second year of another language. =.(

[ZoharContact]

I took two years of Spanish in college, breezing through with almost straight A's, but I forgot almost all of it within a few months after stopping, because I didn't find it interesting at all. Grades have very little to do with retaining a language. It's mostly about interest and exposure.

I actually met my girlfriend in our college Japanese classes. ^_^

Anyway, most classes won't teach you how to communicate in a language. The best they can really do is teach you what to say in a restaurant, airport, etc. It's good if you travel to that country... a lot. But without considerable effort, you'll forget it.

Je parle francais comme une vache. (I speak French like a cow.)I'm a bit more open, personally. I like what I like, but I'll listen to why I shouldn't. Unless it's a really good argument, though, I'll just wind up liking it more.I agree. Sometimes your parents, or other people, see things that you don't. That's in the case of specific people, though. In terms of influencing someone's orientation, there's really no good reason.

[CapnTylor]

...Okay. I'll stop showing off.


Well if you want to get technical it's:
好きな物は好きだからしょうがない

Oh snap ladies, someone just busted out the freakin'　漢字 and 仮名.

[earsofdoom]

I took two years of Spanish in college, breezing through with almost straight A's, but I forgot almost all of it within a few months after stopping, because I didn't find it interesting at all. Grades have very little to do with retaining a language. It's mostly about interest and exposure.


That's very true... I had no interest in french whatsoever and can't remember a thing after awhile, though for me i sucked at it quite a bit so i ended up getting exempted from it rather then getting A's (yes i am that bad at speaking french


I actually met my girlfriend in our college Japanese classes. ^_^


That's just to cute, and here i thought stuff like that only happened in movie's ;)

[DazzleKitty]

My grandma was from France, and if she and my grandpa hadn't divorced, I would probably be fluent in French. It's a shame they split, because I think French is one of the neatest languages. I like the sound of it. ^_^

I took two years of Spanish in highschool and barely passed. I got Ds and maybe a C in one or two quarters. :P Everyone says it's easy, but I thought it was difficult. The verb tenses are hard to remember, and then they have all those irregular verbs to remember. >_< Everyone in my class dreaded it. The class was like an hour of pure torture. You couldn't just daydream in the class either, because the teacher would get on you.
I love how Japanese has very simple verbs (or at least they are at the level I am at, and my teacher says they are a breeze compared to English/Spanish verbs).

[same_animefan]

I actually met my girlfriend in our college Japanese classes. ^_^

Aww ^_^ that's cute. I wish something like that could happen to me ;-; I have horrible luck with men -____-.

Anyway, most classes won't teach you how to communicate in a language. The best they can really do is teach you what to say in a restaurant, airport, etc. It's good if you travel to that country... a lot. But without considerable effort, you'll forget it.

That's true, but at least it's something ^^;. Learn the basics.

[DazzleKitty]

It is cute that you could meet your sweetie like that. Not to mention, she probably shares you interests since she was in the Japanese class, eh? That's so cool. ^_^

All the guys in my Japanese class seem hard to approach. I'm just not good with starting up convos with others.

[ZoharContact]

that's cute!Thank you very much! I'm actually bad at starting conversations, too. I just made some friends and it went from there. Just remember that when you progress through the higher levels of a language class, you may find that you've been in classes with a smell group of regulars for a year or more. By then, you usually know everybody's name. (Although katakana-ized names were always hard for me to remember.)That's true, but at least it's something ^^;. Learn the basics.I forgot to mention that. A rudimentary grammar knowledge is pretty important. Otherwise it will all just blend together.

How about this, then? Buy a regular self-teaching Japanese book, the kind you find at major bookstores. Then just learn some particles, pronouns, honorifics (you probably know most already), and some general vocabulary. After that, you should be fairly well able to section the language off and learn new vocabulary while you watch anime.

Also, look up the lyrics of songs you like, in both romanji and translations.

Then, if you're feeling up to it, get into the kana, and later, the kanji. (Then you can import manga and read it!)

...Or you can just ask me or someone else questions by PM, if you want to save the money.

...

Sometimes I feel like I instigate all off-topic conversations in this forum. I'm sorry... -_-;

[Milky Mixer]

It is cute that you could meet your sweetie like that. Not to mention, she probably shares you interests since she was in the Japanese class, eh? That's so cool. ^_^

All the guys in my Japanese class seem hard to approach. I'm just not good with starting up convos with others.

Hey Dazzle, I live in the STL area too (Belleville, actually). I've been interested in taking Japanese myself. I've only done a bit of casual investigation, but it doesn't seem like any of the colleges around here offer it. Where are you taking it, if you don't mind me asking?

Also, did you know we're having a con in STL in April? http://www.anime-cons.com/events/info.shtml/1126 It doesn't look like it's going to be all that major, I think they're only going to have 3 guests total, but I guess they're still getting started (I didn't even realize they did this last year) and they're camping on with a sci-fi convention to pull in a bigger crowd. But it may be worth checking out. I plan to go to Anime Central in Chicago in May, but I feel I may need to check the STL con out too, if only to show support and to say "Yes, STL needs an anime con." I went to Kunicon last year and had a good time, but like I said, I never even knew this Anime STL took place.

[DazzleKitty]

I think I remember you being one of the three people here I know of that lives near me, Milky! But I had no idea you lived in Belleville! I used to go there quite a bit, actually. Do you know of that huge flea market they have at the fair grounds once a month? I used to go to that a lot. Actually, I plan on going this month again if things go right.

Oh, and I am taking Japanese at the Meramec St. Louis Community College. It's in Kirkwood, if you know where that is. It only has one year of Japanese, so after that, I am going to Webster most likely. They have three years of Japanese. Also, I know that Washington University has 5 years of Japanese, but they are insanely expensive (around $2000 per credit hour....ouch!). I'd love to go to it, but it's so pricey. I think UMSL has Japanese too. Those are all the options that I know of as of now.

Oh! A con? I remember the con that was held last year, but I couldn't go. I will definently go to this one if it's the last thing I do! I've never been to a con, and I don't want to have to travel halfway across the country to attend one. This is a great chance for me to finally go to one. Thank you so much for posting that link! *saves link to favorites*

[Milky Mixer]

LMAO @ the flea market. Yes, I know the flea market at the fairgrounds very well. The third weekend of every month! I haven't been in awhile, but we used to go all the time when I was a kid and I still try to hit it a couple of times a year.

I was pretty sure Wash U offered Japanese but I'm like you, ain't no way I'm going to pay that kind of money. Ok, so my choices are Webster and UMSL and the Kirkwood community college. Good to know. I need to check if McKendree offers it. They were having some kind of mini-Japanese festival about a month ago but I didn't get to attend any of the events. Still, if they're doing a Japanese festival, one would think they'd offer Japanese. I need to do more investigating.

Yeah, Kunicon was held last year in March at the Millennium Hotel downtown and it was a ton of fun and the first con I went to. I met Richard Epcar, who does the dub voice of Batou on GitS (I'm a huge GitS fan) so that was really cool. This year I went to Anime Central in Chicago and Anime Weekend Atlanta. I think jetting out to Atlanta might have been a bit too much for me as it was a lot of traveling just for a weekend and then not really getting to see much of Atlanta. But ACen and AWA were about the same in terms of size and the amount of activities, and I can say, ACen is a good con and the plane ticket to Chicago isn't all that pricey (and the flight is all of 45 mins!). So if you want to check out a bigger con and not go clear across the country, I recommend ACen. You can also take the train up there and not have to worry about driving. Plus for me, I've been to Chicago a number of times so if I go for a convention weekend and don't do the site-seeing thing, well, I don't feel like I'm missing an opportunity as I've been there before. But that's just me. And my 2 cents on cons. I'm going to try to go to the STL con if I can work it out, but it's in April and ACen is in May and I definitely want to go to ACen again. Still, it's about time the STL area gets some con love. After attending Kunicon, it was obvious to me that this area could definitely support an anime convention, we just need one to be here. That's why I want to go and support this STL con. Glad you marked your calendar if ya didn't know about it already! ^_^

[DazzleKitty]

I heard about that Japanese festival. Actually, my teacher wanted us to go if we could. I had plans that weekend, so I couldn't go.

McKendree....never heard of that one. I may have to look into it.

I thought about going to WashU with student loans, but you have to take two classes in order to get one. That would be like....$12000 a semester. That's insane!

[Milky Mixer]

I heard about that Japanese festival. Actually, my teacher wanted us to go if we could. I had plans that weekend, so I couldn't go.

McKendree....never heard of that one. I may have to look into it.

I thought about going to WashU with student loans, but you have to take two classes in order to get one. That would be like....$12000 a semester. That's insane!

McKendree is a smaller college out in the Lebanon IL area. They were having a mini-Japanese festival for a week or so about a month ago, where they had lectures at noon and movies in the evening. But you might be thinking of the Japanese Festival at the Missouri Botanical Gardens. I go to that every year and it's such a treat! It's every year on Labor Day weekend, and I really encourage you to check it out if you haven't been. Not only do you get the already beautiful setting of the Botanical Gardens, but if you've got any interest in Japanese culture, you will enjoy it... they have food, a market of sellers with all kinds of cool stuff, performances, kimono fashion show, martial arts demonstrations, ikebana and bonzai displays, taiko drums, craftsmen, and the last two years they have had sumo wrestlers.

Yeah, I just want to take Japanese for fun. Paying off a $12000 loan is not my idea of fun.

[Milky Mixer]

Zohar, you obviously aren't the only one who creates thread drifts. Sorry, folks. Dazzle and I are just having a neighborly chat, I guess. :)

[DazzleKitty]

Ah, the botanical gardens is the one I was thinking of. I remember it was over labor day weekend, and I couldn't go because I had to help with this big party we were having.
Maybe I'll go next weekend. Lots of the students in my Japanese class went.

I'm also sorry about this thread going off-topic . I contribute to OTness a lot too. :P I can't help myself.

[same_animefan]

Ok, every time I try and quote you, Zohar, my browser locks up >> *stabs it* SOooo.

Thanks for the tips ^_^. It actually sounds like I'm on the right track as far as what I'm looking into. I have a self-study workbook like I'd probably get in a class, but I also picked up a grammer book at the same time. I also have a 4 or so CD set that teaches from the basic kana to Kanji and words in said characters and then goes into the launguage. I just have to get off my *** and use said things already X***.

[Milky Mixer]

I notice a lot of the time when I try to quote on these forums I get locked up too. >_<

[Kaosgirl]

The only problem I have with this forum is my tendency to fall behind on some of the threads.

Course, in this case that's probly a good thing. Some of the stuff here provoked a response that would have, at the least, earned me a lot of hostility... and only the fact that the thread had moved on kept me from actually posting them.

[earsofdoom]

The only problem I have with this forum is my tendency to fall behind on some of the threads.

Course, in this case that's probly a good thing. Some of the stuff here provoked a response that would have, at the least, earned me a lot of hostility... and only the fact that the thread had moved on kept me from actually posting them.

I'm fairly certain i know which topic your talking about, It's probably a good idea you didn't try to discuss it becouse by expressing your own opinion some ppl accuse you of "spreading false information" and it all just goes down hill from there. you could post it in the Off-topic forum though I'm sure many ppl would like to discuss it.

[same_animefan]

I notice a lot of the time when I try to quote on these forums I get locked up too. >_<

That was actually one of the few times it's ever happened with me. I think it just happens when I try and do a big quote and a long comment on it >_> rawr. *flails* Of course, technology hates me as it is...*sighs*

[earsofdoom]

For the ppl haveing trouble quoteing: Have you checked your CPU usage? when you start a quote hit Control/alt/delete and see how much CPU is being used for the page.

[Milky Mixer]

I'm fairly certain i know which topic your talking about, It's probably a good idea you didn't try to discuss it becouse by expressing your own opinion some ppl accuse you of "spreading false information" and it all just goes down hill from there. you could post it in the Off-topic forum though I'm sure many ppl would like to discuss it.

I'm lost. :uhh:
Do you feel that we have been unfair with people expressing their opinions? The only person I think people got agitated with was Matt, but mostly because he evaded questions put to him and didn't really listen to what anyone else was saying. Hope no one feels he or she can't continue discussing the original topic without getting beat up...

[earsofdoom]

I'm lost. :uhh:

Well, i don't really want to focus a big spot light on kaosgirl (I'm sure she's alright talking about it becouse she's been pretty open and honest with her post's but still) so i didn't exactly mention what it was about. There was just a comment made awhile ago that catagorized her identity.

[Milky Mixer]

Well, not saying I made the comment but if it was me, no offense was intended. I'm pretty open to anyone and only bite back when folks are making broad, insensitive, or ignorant statements. Like I've said many times, we're all different but we should embrace the differences and celebrate the similarities.

I think I even like Matt, heh. Some of his comments certainly provoked the rest of us into examining things a bit closer. I just wish he was a better listener and a bit more open to what others are saying.

[Kaosgirl]

Well, i don't really want to focus a big spot light on kaosgirl (I'm sure she's alright talking about it becouse she's been pretty open and honest with her post's but still) so i didn't exactly mention what it was about. There was just a comment made awhile ago that catagorized her identity.

I am pretty open (at least online) about being transgendered, and some of the stuff earlier in this thread did glance off a few buttons (hard not to when the conversation wanders into "male oppression vs female oppression" and you've tasted both directly...) but if there was something direct, I must have missed it.

[earsofdoom]

I am pretty open (at least online) about being transgendered, and some of the stuff earlier in this thread did glance off a few buttons (hard not to when the conversation wanders into "male oppression vs female oppression" and you've tasted both directly...) but if there was something direct, I must have missed it.

o.... i thought you meant in another thread when someone said that Transgendered's were male's, (I'm guessing with the name Kaosgirl that you identify yourself more as a woman so you were offended) you have the right of choice of however you wish to identify yourself as.

[Kaosgirl]

o.... i thought you meant in another thread when someone said that Transgendered's were male's, (I'm guessing with the name Kaosgirl that you identify yourself more as a woman so you were offended) you have the right of choice of however you wish to identify yourself as.

Hrm? Yeah, that *would* have likely set me off if I'd seen it, or at least generated some sort of comment.

But going back to... well, I guess the previous bit of thread drift, I did just notice a hang trying to autoquote someone. Had to do it the manual way... (oh and nothing unusual on the CPU usage, I did check.)

[DazzleKitty]

I actually get that freeze too whenever I quote someone, no matter what browser I use. I know several others have complained about it as well.

[same_animefan]

Actually, Kaosgirl mentioned it was when she used the AutoQuote. Maybe there's a glitch with the qoute button if it works fine manually? Course, it only ever does that for me with super long quotes.