whatever happened to shamshel's body/analysis?

[BadNflu3nce]

After Shamshel is defeated, they bring its body down into Nerv HQ (always wondered how they did that) and run analysis on it. What happened to the analysis and what happened to its body? The same question could be posed for what became of Ramiel after the clean up crew took it apart. Did they toss them in the Eva graveyard with the other skeletons? (would have been a nice touch to see them lumped in a corner somewhere in that shot)

Another thing that bugged me is why everyone was excited over finally getting an intact angel to analyze anyway. Don't they already have one nailed up in Terminal Dogma? and what happened to all the data from GEHERN when they made a copy of the first angel, Adam? Did Naoko Akagi erase all the data from the Magi before she jumped?

This seems to be a plotline that isn't picked up again after being casually mentioned in episode 14 (the report wasn't finished yet). Of course, it later becomes irrelevant when all the angels are destroyed, and the analysis is moot, because they are all dead.

I think that it is just a plot hole: that several people who should be completely knowledgeable of what's going on (Ikari, Fuyutski, Agaki, even the committee in ep. 2) say things in the first 6 eps. that later don't make sense as we learn more about nerv's secrets, because otherwise they would reveal too much, too early in the series.

anyone agree?

[DarthMigit]

After Shamshel is defeated, they bring its body down into Nerv HQ (always wondered how they did that) and run analysis on it. What happened to the analysis and what happened to its body?

The importance of Shamshel's body being recovered intact is that NERV were able to extract a working S^2 unit, then incorperate it into the Evas (as seen in unit 04 and then later in the mass production models). As for the analysis...nobody knows. Perhaps it was purposefully lost because it revealed something about the Angels that Seele didn't wan't revealed...

Another thing that bugged me is why everyone was excited over finally getting an intact angel to analyze anyway. Don't they already have one nailed up in Terminal Dogma? and what happened to all the data from GEHERN when they made a copy of the first angel, Adam? Did Naoko Akagi erase all the data from the Magi before she jumped?

Ah, but the existance of lillith was supposed to be top secret. As far as anyone not at the top of the NERV/Seele hiarachy was aware, Shamshel was the first Angel corpse recovered in one piece. As for Adam, the research findings from the Katsuragi expedition were also classified, in fact untill Fuyustki dug them up, Ikari himself believed that they were destroyed. Also, I doubt Seele would be too chuffed about Gendo and crew disecting the key-stones of instrumentality! (Not that he would have done, because he needed them as well.):P.

I think that it is just a plot hole: that several people who should be completely knowledgeable of what's going on (Ikari, Fuyutski, Agaki, even the committee in ep. 2) say things in the first 6 eps. that later don't make sense as we learn more about nerv's secrets, because otherwise they would reveal too much, too early in the series.

Isn't it possible that these individuals you mention simply wouldn't have wanted to reveal too much? There was no sense in cackling manically about captured Gods and instrumentality untill it was too late anyway, it could have scuppered the entire plan. I sense no plot hole here. ^_^

anyone agree?

Not me.

[Ark]

The importance of Shamshel's body being recovered intact is that NERV were able to extract a working S^2 unit .


I thought that was the core.

[DarthMigit]

Noooooooooooooope. The core was heavilly damaged, and while they did extract it as well, what they were really after was a working S^2 unit.

Please don't tell me you thought that red ball was the S^2!:crybaby:

[HeWhoPostsStuff]

The importance of Shamshel's body being recovered intact is that NERV were able to extract a working S^2 unit, then incorperate it into the Evas (as seen in unit 04 and then later in the mass production models).
I remember it being rumored that they put Sham's S2 directly into 04 (which some theorized was the reason for the Nevada branch disaster), but I don't know if there's any hard evidence to back that up.

[DarthMigit]

Well where else could they have gotten one from? Apparently they did not transfer over during the cloning process.

[Ornette]

Isn't the S^2 inside the core?

Also, HWPS, I think this line:
Unit 04 and the 2nd Branch are acceptable.
Even with the S2 engine, we may have lost the sample,
but we still have the data in Germany.
This installation and Unit 01 will be sufficient.
I think that is the source of the rumor. Gendo said they lost the sample of the S^2 engine.

Also, having Lilith around does not equal a sample of an Adam Based Lifeform. Didn't people here conclude that Lilith doesn't have an S^2? (fruit of life/fruit of knowledge). I think the jist of having an intact sample was not so much that they can examine an angel (they're all pretty different) but mostly that they have access to an S^2.

[DarthMigit]

Isn't the S^2 inside the core

NO! GOD NO!!!:angry:

Sorry, but that misconception irritates me to no end. :naughty: The core is the red ball and the S^2 unit simply resembles a squishy organ. The two are in no way linked...Think about it, the orignal Evas have cores but lack S^2s, the core simply harbours the Shito/Eva's soul, its life force. The only way to kill either entirely being desruction of the core.

Okay then? ^_^

[Defiled one]

NO! GOD NO!!!:angry:

Sorry, but that misconception irritates me to no end. :naughty: The core is the red ball and the S^2 unit simply resembles a squishy organ. The two are in no way linked...Think about it, the orignal Evas have cores but lack S^2s, the core simply harbours the Shito/Eva's soul, its life force. The only way to kill either entirely being desruction of the core.

Okay then? ^_^


for the other people here is a comparison..you have your skull...and inside of your skull his the brain...its like that in sense...the core..and the S^2 organ

[DarthMigit]

for the other people here is a comparison..you have your skull...and inside of your skull his the brain...its like that in sense...the core..and the S^2 organ

Are you suggesting that the S^2 exists inside the core?! What evdidence is there to suggest that? I'm sorry but I have to disagree.

[OMF]

After Shamshel is defeated, they bring its body down into Nerv HQ (always wondered how they did that) and run analysis on it. What happened to the analysis and what happened to its body? The same question could be posed for what became of Ramiel after the clean up crew took it apart.
As to Shamshel, the body was not in fact taken down to the Geofront. They simply set up a temporary hanger over the body and disected it there. I'd make a screenshot, but my screenshot capability is down at the moment. See the beginning of the scene where Shamshel's remains are being disected to see what I mean.

Once they had the core sample, the rest was likely disposed of, as per Gendo's orders. See the first post here (http://www.evamonkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=708) for the scene dialogue. As to Ramiel, I imagine that it too was simply disposed of.

Another thing that bugged me is why everyone was excited over finally getting an intact angel to analyze anyway. Don't they already have one nailed up in Terminal Dogma? and what happened to all the data from GEHERN when they made a copy of the first angel, Adam?They have Lilith down in Terminal Dogma, who does not appear and most likely does not in fact have an S^2 core. Nerv have the ability to make cores for the Evas or induce those cores to grow, but do not seem to have the ability to coax an S^2 organ/engine to grow in the core as well. Hence the umbilical cords.

I think that it is just a plot hole: that several people who should be completely knowledgeable of what's going on (Ikari, Fuyutski, Agaki, even the committee in ep. 2) say things in the first 6 eps. that later don't make sense as we learn more about nerv's secrets, because otherwise they would reveal too much, too early in the series.Could you be more specific on what you mean here? There's a lot in Evangelion that doesn't quite make sense.

[DarthMigit]

They have Lilith down in Terminal Dogma, who does not appear and most likely does not in fact have an S^2 core.

A what!? A WHAT?! I am telling you people: THE CORE AND THE S^2 UNIT ARE IN NO WAY THE SAME THING, NOR ARE THEY LINKED IN ANY WAY.

And Lillith DOES have a core, because unit 01 does and she is a clone of Lillith. Figure it out! :P However, it is possible that Lillith lacks an S^2 UNIT which is in NO WAY the same thing or IN ANY WAY LINKED with the core.

How can I make this any easier!!:crybaby:

[Mr. Tines]

Sorry, but that misconception irritates me to no end.

My recollection of the consensus was that the S^2 would have been within the Eva core if it had not been engineered out of the design. Alas, I can't quickly track down the relevant thread - perhaps one of the other long-timers might oblige.

[Ornette]

http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=122287
and
http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=156303
maybe?

[BadNflu3nce]

Ok, I never thought about extracting the s^2 engine. That makes sense.

Thinking about it, Ritsuko does mention that she doesn't understand aspects of the evas in episode 17:

Misato We're being forced to use things we don't understand
Ritsuko (to herself): Yes, things like the evas.

So I guess my original argument, that since the made evangelion, they should know what the angels are, is lacking. It is quite plausible that they made copies of adam without really knowing what the were doing, especially since they failed so many times at first.

But still, I mentioned there are a few lines of dialogue that make sense for the first time viewer, when angels/evas are still mysterious unknowns, but later seem to be plot holes; let me elaborate:

In episode 1, Ikari and Fuyutski refer to the angels as "autonomous weapons"

In episode 2, the SEELE dudes talk about how Eva-01 could be a "waste" Then they refer to the angels as simply "delays" in the schedule for human instrumentality.

Furthermore, in episode 2, Nerv installs all these weapon emplacements in Tokyo 3 that do absolutely nothing against the A.T. field, and they know it. In the next episode Fuyutski says that they are "wasting the tax-payers money"

In episode 3, Ritsuko says that an Eva should only have enough power for one minute using the batteries, but could possibly go 5 minutes while in low energy "gain mode".

So I guess my question is, how much did Gendo know, with regards to the angels and evas? He had the dead sea scrolls and SEELE's schedule, right? Were they intentionally acting ignorant at times, so that people wouldn't suspect? or was it just an error the writing, becuase Anno and Gainax simply didn't have everyting planned out yet that early in the series.

[DarthMigit]

My recollection of the consensus was that the S^2 would have been within the Eva core if it had not been engineered out of the design.

Aparrently I am not the only one who disagrees with you.

Sadamoto's manga version of Introspection made what was happening during Yui-sama & Zeruel's intimate moment much clearer than it was in the anime -- she pulled out his neck and focused her dining there, implying that Zeruel kept his S2 THERE rather than in his core or some such thing. Of course that is the manga rather than the anime, but it's an interpretation that works perfectly well: In the anime, Yui pulls on Zeruel's face (though his face stretches like rubber instead of his neck being pulled outside his body, which seems suspiciously like a botch to me) and narrows her eyes before she digs in, and the last thing we see her eating is his face itself. By all indications, his core was untouched (though I would imagine she got around to actually killing him sooner or later...).

There is no reason to assume that the S^2 exists inside the core, that was never implied in the anime as far as I recall.

[OMF]

That Reichu quote was from 2003. there has been manys the long night wasted on the boards since then. Read the entirety of that thread (http://www.evamonkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=708), but beware. Some of the worst omnislashing in the Eva community is on display.

[DarthMigit]

That Reichu quote was from 2003. there has been manys the long night wasted on the boards since then. Read the entirety of that thread (http://www.evamonkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=708), but beware. Some of the worst omnislashing in the Eva community is on display.

Meh...I think the most valid theories are put forward before everyone starts tangent-ing. They were just rambling by the end of that thread. :P

[Reichu]

That Reichu quote was from 2003. there has been manys the long night wasted on the boards since then.
Indeed, that quote of mine is verifitable (lol) BS now. DarthMigit in no way receives the support of its author.

Since posting links to other threads seems to be a failed manuever... I'll just repost the most obvious crap.

The core acts as a container for the S2 Engine. (Among other things.) In fact, episode #05 was given additional 5.1 audio track dialogue to make this point more clear. Here's any relevant lines; you can see the full scene here (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-05/episode-05A-scene2.html).

*****
Man 2 "The Power Analysis Unit from Germany's 2nd Branch is scheduled to arrive within 5 minutes. Director in the S² block, wait for further instruction."
Woman "Recovering the existing core is the highest priority."
(Ritsuko "I see. Almost everything except the core remains intact. Truly an ideal sample.")
......
(Misato "Well, you at least found its power source, right?")
Man 2 "The Power Analysis Unit from Germany's 2nd Branch is currently
arriving."
(Ritsuko "Something like that. But we haven't been able to figure out any of its operating principles.")
Fuyutsuki "This is the core? How is the rest of it?"
Man "It is severely deteriorated. We can't expect to use it as a reference."
Ikari "Not a problem. Dispose of everything else."
*****

Later on, in #17...

*****
IBUKI:
Evangelion Unit 04 and all related research facilities within an 89km radius
have completely vanished.

RITSUKO:
Along with several thousand people.

AOBA:
Looking at the time schedule, we believe it to be an accident
during the experimental installation of the S2 engine
that was restored in Germany.
*****

Another thing: When EVA-01 is "taking the S2 Engine into herself", she's
sticking her face into Zeruel's core. To repeat an experiment the late Knives of ANF once did...

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/Core/19_C349.jpg

Here we can see that she is pulling on Zeruel's face. Also, I have taken the liberty of circling the core for us.

The cut where she begins to feed is a direct continuation of C349, above. The elements are all in the exact same places. Notice the positions of Zeruel's face and core.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/Core/19_C352a.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/Core/19_C352b.jpg

His face is untouched. But HER face appears to be in his nuclear region.

I'm not quite sure how one takes a bite out of a core, but I guess I should not question the capabilities of those pearly whites...

How did the "wisdom" that the core and Super Solenoid have nothing to do with one another come about? (Backlash against the misconception that they are the same thing?)

Purposely engineering the S2 out of the Evas and then being desperate to recover one from an Angel doesn't make very much sense... If one can engineer it out, then it could be engineered back in (this is ludicrous sci-fi bioengineering, after all), or S2s could even be cultured separately, in theory. (And remember that Adam is still handy, too.) I'm inclined to stick to my suspicion that there is a metabiological factor in the S2's origins, and that "FoL = S2 Engine" (as given in the CI, pretty much) is a blatant and rather unhelpful simplification. That is, the FoL is intrinsically metabiological, and required for the self-development of the S2.

Ergo, Evas aren't born with S2s because they aren't born with souls; and even when they receive souls, said souls don't originate from Adam, who holds the FoL. As a result, S2s must be obtained after the fact.

[Terra Australis]

At first, I thought the core and S2 engine were separate, but after observing those pictures, it appears that the core and S2 engine are one and the same, as people have mentioned. Also, I can't remember hearing about the S2 engine being engineered out of the design of the Eva's.

On another note, Unit 01 had shown on 2 ocassions that it could operate independently of the umbilical cable and without an S2 engine when it had gone beserk. Though it went into beserk mode, it nonetheless proved that it could operate without a power source. Indeed, Unit 01 showed this in the battle against Zeruel in which it ate the angels S2 engine.

Even with an S2 engine, Unit 01 still needed to operate with an umbilical cable, only using the S2 engine when the Eva chose to.

[DarthMigit]

At first, I thought the core and S2 engine were separate, but after observing those pictures, it appears that the core and S2 engine are one and the same, as people have mentioned.

Actually, that is not what was being suggested. Rather that the S^2 resides within the core.

On a related matter...okay, you win. I'm man enough to know when I'm beat.;) Apologies for my previous rudeness (and for using Reichu quotes without her permission, and for skimming threads without actually reading them in depth, AND for using dodgy ancient posts to back up flimsy theories...ahem -_-; )

[Terra Australis]

Actually, that is not what was being suggested. Rather that the S^2 resides within the core.


Yes, that is what I was getting at.

[DarthMigit]

My mistake, please consider my apology added to the above list.

[Reichu]

At first, I thought the core and S2 engine were separate, but after observing those pictures, it appears that the core and S2 engine are one and the same
As Darth Migit mentioned, ixnay on the amesay.

Also, I can't remember hearing about the S2 engine being engineered out of the design of the Eva's.
It's a theory to account for the Evas' lack of intrinsic S2.

On another note, Unit 01 had shown on 2 ocassions that it could operate independently of the umbilical cable and without an S2 engine when it had gone beserk. Though it went into beserk mode, it nonetheless proved that it could operate without a power source.
Going "berserk" and moving without power are intrinsically related: "Berserk" is a loaded way of saying that she's moving of her own volition, and, at such times, she is theoretically capable of tapping some unknown source of energy for limited periods of time. Yui does this three times: In #01, when she moves her hand to cover Shinji; #16, when she escapes from Leliel; and, of course, #19. In #25', EVA-02 (Kyoko) shows that she is capable of the same, although her timing is terrible.

Even with an S2 engine, Unit 01 still needed to operate with an umbilical cable, only using the S2 engine when the Eva chose to.
Nerv probably wanted to play it safe, considering what had happened the last two times humans screwed around with S2 Engines. (Second Impact, and the incident in Nevada.) Meantime, in Germany...

[Terra Australis]

No, it's okay, all's right with the world :)

[DarthMigit]

Nerv probably wanted to play it safe, considering what had happened the last two times humans screwed around with S2 Engines. (Second Impact, and the incident in Nevada.) Meantime, in Germany...

Not to mention the fact that Seele is staunchly against creating Gods...hence, no S^2.

[Terra Australis]

Thanks for the insight, and my apologies for the ambiguity with my earlier post :)

[Reichu]

Not to mention the fact that Seele is staunchly against creating Gods...hence, no S^2.
Unless it's their flock of flying monkeys in question, of course. (Strangely, the harpies are never referred to as gods... or is it just me?)

BTW, how does your comment follow up on mine? :unsure:

[DarthMigit]

BTW, how does your comment follow up on mine? :unsure:

You were providing a reason as to why the S^2 organ was engineered out of the Evas...

Nerv probably wanted to play it safe, considering what had happened the last two times humans screwed around with S2 Engines. (Second Impact, and the incident in Nevada.) Meantime, in Germany...

...I provided another. And you're right, Seele do seem oddly unconcerned about the Harpie's S^2s :uhh:...hmm. Perhaps there is some, unexplained, ihearent difference between Harpies and standard Evas.

[Terra Australis]

You were providing a reason as to why the S^2 organ was engineered out of the Evas...



...I provided another. And you're right, Seele do seem oddly unconcerned about the Harpie's S^2s :uhh:...hmm. Perhaps there is some, unexplained, ihearent difference between Harpies and standard Evas.


I thought it was said in EoE that Seele had perfected the S2 engine for use in the Eva mass production series.

[DarthMigit]

I thought it was said in EoE that Seele had perfected the S2 engine for use in the Eva mass production series.

That's true. However, in #20 they were clearly extremley put-out by the fact that Shogouki had aquired itself an S^2, convinced that man should not create Gods. Which again is unusual considering how Nerv were researching S^2s in Nevada, presumably under Seele's orders.

[Shin-seiki]

That's true. However, in #20 they were clearly extremley put-out by the fact that Shogouki had aquired itself an S^2, convinced that man should not create Gods. Which again is unusual considering how Nerv were researching S^2s in Nevada, presumably under Seele's orders.They're cheesed that Gendo has his own 'god'. But keep in mind that the whole point of their wacky religion is to elevate themselves to 'gods'.

[Terra Australis]

That's true. However, in #20 they were clearly extremley put-out by the fact that Shogouki had aquired itself an S^2, convinced that man should not create Gods. Which again is unusual considering how Nerv were researching S^2s in Nevada, presumably under Seele's orders.

I guess Seele was anticipating a forthcoming confrontation with Nerv (they both had their own agenda's for intiating the 3I, and Seele were untrusting of Gendo) and didn't want Nerv to also have an Eva that could utilise an S2 engine that would be able to fight against them without any worry of time restraints, thus, increasing the chances of Nerv stopping Seele from intiating their own 3I. If Asuka's Eva had an S2 engine, I'm sure she would not have been defeated.

[Reichu]

I thought it was said in EoE that Seele had perfected the S2 engine for use in the Eva mass production series.
I only recall Fuyutsuki's comment:

FUYUTSUKI:
Deployment of all nine units equipped with the S2 Engines?
Isn't that a bit excessive?
Or, do they plan to initiate it here!!?

You were providing a reason as to why the S^2 organ was engineered out of the Evas...
Ixnay. I was corroborating on why Nerv would want to "play it safe" and continue using an umbilical cable instead of attempting to tap Sho's S2.

And you're right, Seele do seem oddly unconcerned about the Harpie's S^2s :uhh:...hmm. Perhaps there is some, unexplained, ihearent difference between Harpies and standard Evas.
That's as evident as their beautiful faces, but when it comes down to it Seele are just a bunch of hypocrites.

[DarthMigit]

They're cheesed that Gendo has his own 'god'. But keep in mind that the whole point of their wacky religion is to elevate themselves to 'gods'.

Yep, good point. However, I believe they described the completion of unit 01 as "blasphemy". Was this merely some twisted justification for fearing the threat Gendo's unit now posed?

Ixnay. I was corroborating on why Nerv would want to "play it safe" and continue using an umbilical cable instead of attempting to tap Sho's S2.

My mistake. Soz about the confusion :P

That's as evident as their beautiful faces.

In which case...what exactly are the Harpies? Were the wings and whale heads simply written into their genetic structure? The wings seem practical but the whale heads are a bit pointless, aside perhaps for streamlining the evas during flight. Seele seem to consider the mass productions less offensive when S^2 equiped than, ooh say...Shogouki. They were apparently no match for a fully-functional unit 02 as well, are they simply less powerful than the orignal models?

Forgive my tangent-ing, don't feel abliged to reply. ^_^

[Reichu]

Actually, the wings are rather pointless in and of themselves: Evas are capable of levitation and other ATF-powered methods of disassociating themselves with the ground. Clearly the harpies have access to these abilities, since we see them ascending without employment of the wings or simply floating, perfectly still, in the air multiple times in #26' -- unambiguous ATF levitation. The wings would be completely useless for powered flight in creatures of their size. EVA-02 demonstrates that wings are not needed for aerial manuevering, either.

Conclusion: The wings are just there to look cool.

As for the 'whale heads', no logic is provided for them whatsoever. Transforming the Eva cranium into something completely different -- that, strangely, has different vocal capacities attached... -- is an awful lot of trouble to go through just for "streamlining". Or anything else, for that matter; I don't see how normal crania would impede Seele's 3I requirements in any way.

Conclusion: The heads are just to make the MP Evas creepy as all ****.

[Terra Australis]

I only recall Fuyutsuki's comment:

FUYUTSUKI:
Deployment of all nine units equipped with the S2 Engines?
Isn't that a bit excessive?
Or, do they plan to initiate it here!!?


In any case, Seele must have perfected the S2 engines since they were used in the Eva mass production series.


Actually, the wings are rather pointless in and of themselves: Evas are capable of levitation and other ATF-powered methods of disassociating themselves with the ground. Clearly the harpies have access to these abilities, since we see them ascending without employment of the wings or simply floating, perfectly still, in the air multiple times in #26' -- unambiguous ATF levitation. The wings would be completely useless for powered flight in creatures of their size. EVA-02 demonstrates that wings are not needed for aerial manuevering, either.

Conclusion: The wings are just there to look cool.


Perhaps the wings are there as a biblical referance, since angels are meant to have wings (I know they're not angels, but nonetheless).

[Ridley-X4]

I think Shamshel got shrunk ala Adam's embryo and got attached to Gendo like Adam...do you see where I'm going with this? *shot*

[Hexon.Arq]

I think once NERV was satisfied with the amount of data they acquired, they hacked up the body and sold it at a tuna auction as a means of supplementing their budget. Shamshel had a months-long run as one of Japan's most popular and mysterious sashimi ingredients.

[Magami No ER]

Sashimi in Japan wouldn't have lasted that long anyway, even with Sham's sheer size(try saying that 10 times fast...Do it.) Goes through that country rather quickly. :P

[Hexon.Arq]

Sashimi in Japan wouldn't have lasted that long anyway, even with Sham's sheer size(try saying that 10 times fast...Do it.) Goes through that country rather quickly. :P

Well, of course you have to account for all the old codgers who stuck to ordering stuff like maguro, ika and sake each time they ate out, always wary of new trends and just sitting bitterly over their beers.