I don't get it (SD&D)

[kenshinbebop]

What's bad about posting about politics or world events? I don't get it. If it's in off topic discussian...it's off topic..it's discussion. I mean, of course it'll start disputes, but what doesnt now-a-days.

Just a question... ^_^

[Leader Desslock]

Does anyone have any choice excerpts from the old SD&D threads archived? I think that'd pretty much answer his question. ^_^

[Suiko Eiji]

Does anyone have any choice excerpts from the old SD&D threads archived? I think that'd pretty much answer his question. ^_^

I really wish I did, even just for this very purpose. I think everyone should be exposed to CTL. :lol:

The short answer is that politics and world events relating as such gets very messy, very quickly. SD&D brought out some unique and interesting viewpoints but having to circulate through a few pages of pure trite (a number of my own posts populating some of that) brought up flamewars, discontent, and given the rule violations that accompany heated passion and emotion, far, FAR too difficult to moderate.

[kenshinbebop]

brought up flamewars, discontent, and given the rule violations that accompany heated passion and emotion, far, FAR too difficult to moderate.

Ok, that's all I needed. Just wanted to know.

Thanks.

[Bernard_Monsha]

I really wish I did, even just for this very purpose. I think everyone should be exposed to CTL. :lol:

CTL's post should be required readiing, he is one of the few people I absolutely miss reading on the forum.


Overtly political threads are promptly killed from either side because you end up with the "I read the WWP newsletter" people vs the "Rush said so people" As neither side is capable of forming a cohernet thought you end up with 8 pages of flameing strawmen.

Back pre 2003 SD & D was the place to post with varied topics and a much friedlier atmosphere. After that it usually ended up with Me, CTL, yuzuha, gejutsuka, Karalora, and Uberdirector engaged in a constant yelling match with the "Four Legs Good Two Legs Bad" people from either side.

[Suiko Eiji]

Back pre 2003 SD & D was the place to post with varied topics and a much friedlier atmosphere. After that it usually ended up with Me, CTL, yuzuha, gejutsuka, Karalora, and Uberdirector engaged in a constant yelling match with the "Four Legs Good Two Legs Bad" people from either side.

Those were the days ... :lol: I still use that remark amongst friends.

And I agree that CTL's posts should be required reading; I never read any of his non-SD&D posts, but I liked the way his writing made simple, elegant points, and then swtiched gears to be extremely "insensitive" and "Out of Touch".

The single line I remember to this day was when he said "I don't like my tax doallars paying for electricity in Nebraska."

[Sharp-kun]

The problem with SD&D was that while there was some excellent posters (CTL, Uber, Karalora etc) there was even more of the "uninformed opinionated 14 year old" style of poster who would get angry/huffy every time someone disagreed with them, and the thread would just degenerate as they didn't have the evidence to support their arguments when it was asked for and so would just rant.

I do miss the forum, but it was a nightmare to mod, more so as I posted in it myself and so had to maintain some form of neutrality.

[Bernard_Monsha]

I do miss the forum, but it was a nightmare to mod, more so as I posted in it myself and so had to maintain some form of neutrality.

God forbid a S-Mod ever display an opnion, when it does happen the 14 year olds revolt break rules and get banned. Then it all becomes a Machiavellian conspiracy. Ah the good old days.

[Haruhi]

God forbid a S-Mod ever display an opnion, when it does happen the 14 year olds revolt break rules and get banned. Then it all becomes a Machiavellian conspiracy. Ah the good old days.

Haha, that's so true. Everybody knows an S-mod can't disagree w/somebody w/out being a biased, nazi mod!

[The Million Dollar Prons]

Damn Nazi mods! :D

The problm with poltical disccusions on the Internet is everyone thinks they know what they're talking about when in reality no one does. =(

[Sharp-kun]

Damn Nazi mods! :D

The problm with poltical disccusions on the Internet is everyone thinks they know what they're talking about when in reality no one does. =(
No, some people do. The problem is not enough people know.

[Suiko Eiji]

No, some people do. The problem is not enough people know.

I'll drink to that, even though I felt that I've been on both ends of that one. :cheers:

[{NG}Fidel]

I have seen many S Mods that talk about things they dont seem to know about. The problem isnt wide spread but it isnt non existant either.
And its not politics I am talking about.

[Salainen]

What's bad about posting about politics or world events? I don't get it. If it's in off topic discussian...it's off topic..it's discussion. I mean, of course it'll start disputes, but what doesnt now-a-days.

Just a question... ^_^

That has always been my question. It seems that we should be mature enough to disscuss political issues without "flaming" (as I believe they are calling it). The rule of "you are not allowed to discuss anything that may cause disagreements" is the reason some forums descend to the level of threads that say "OMG mY BoYfR1EnD Iz sO AMaZ1nG!!!!1111!!!!oneONEone!!!!"...Do we want this to happen to the already slowly decaying AN? I think we do not...AN needs a revolution :lol: Power to the proletariat! XD

[Leader Desslock]

God forbid a S-Mod ever display an opnion...
There's nothing wrong with an S-Mod stating an opinion. It's when an S-Mod displays favoritism when it comes to applying forum rules, or when an S-Mod bends or breaks forum rules - that's when it causes a problem, I think. In my opinion, the S-Mods should hold themselves to a higher standard than that which they use to measure the rank & file. An S-Mod needs to be above reproach, because if one or two of them aren't, it makes the job harder for the rest of them.

In my opinion.

I have seen many S Mods that talk about things they dont seem to know about.
Well, they're human, just like the rest of us. Or the rest of you, anyway. I'm not human. ^_^

It seems that we should be mature enough to disscuss political issues without "flaming"
Yes, it seems that we 'should', but the evidence suggests that reality is quite different.

[Salainen]

Yes, it seems that we 'should', but the evidence suggests that reality is quite different.

I believe that you give us less credit for maturity then we deserve. It seems that perhaps there are a few people who would create havok, but generally...I believe it would probably be alright...And the most of us who could handle a debate thread could certainly have the ability to cope with a few people acting badly, and ignore them.

[Evil_Koala]

I agree with whatever Satu said.

[Salainen]

I agree with whatever Satu said.
...This was anticlimactic Nick :lol: I am dissappointed in you...

[Leader Desslock]

I believe that you give us less credit for maturity then we deserve.
I'm giving US (and by that, I include myself) the credit that the history of such threads on the forum indicate we deserve. Are there people capable of handling such a debate on AN? Absolutely. Perhaps you're one of them. If so, then I'll say that for every one of you, I could probably name two people who are NOT capable of having a civil discussion of 'touchy' subjects.

I'd cite threads to support that opinion, but most of the threads I can remember have been (deservedly) deleted.

It seems that perhaps there are a few people who would create havok
It's a lot more than just a few. Quite a significant percentage of the members of this forum are not capable of objectively discussing topics like religion, politics, abortion, lolicon, assisted suicide, race, America's foreign policy, etc., without having the thread spontaneously combusting. As often as not, they don't even mean to spark or fan the flames that follow. We've had a few people on AN who are just walking flamebait.

...I believe it would probably be alright
As do I. The only question is whether the mods and AN would consider it 'worth the hassle'. There's no question that it COULD be fairly moderated, if the effort was made, however.

...And the most of us who could handle a debate thread could certainly have the ability to cope with a few people acting badly, and ignore them.
The AN membership does not have the most successful track record when it comes to ignoring stray comments from the peanut gallery.

[Evil_Koala]

Umm...Sieg Heil Satu. Long live the Proletariat. Death to the Bourgeoisie. They have grown fat with their bucket of KFO. Kentucky Fried Opression.

[Salainen]

Umm...Sieg Heil Satu. Long live the Proletariat. Death to the Bourgeoisie. They have grown fat with their bucket of KFO. Kentucky Fried Opression.

Pfft...You call that propaganda Nick?
...Read our MSN conversation...I showed you how to do it XD

Desslock: But the fact remains that the more you prohibit things, the less interesting AN will become...Do you not agree that it is worth needing to deal with a few idiots to keep the forum from becoming torporific (I have been waiting for all of my life to use that word XD) and intellectually dead?

[kiyomi]

This is like watching a good tennis game..your serve Dess....

[Salainen]

This is like watching a good tennis game..your serve Dess....

You see, and if we had the option of debating...We could amuse ourselves this way every day :P But it would be about things in the world that matter actually :P

[Leader Desslock]

Desslock: But the fact remains that the more you prohibit things, the less interesting AN will become.
I agree.

Do you not agree that it is worth needing to deal with a few idiots to keep the forum from becoming torporific (I have been waiting for all of my life to use that word XD) and intellectually dead?
You're using the expression "worth needing" without context. You can't say "worth it" without saying "to whom?" In this case, the Whom is AN, and I can't say whether it's worth it to them or not. Only AN can say whether the benefit of fostering such discussion would be 'worth' the hassle of administering it.

[Salainen]

I agree.


You're using the expression "worth needing" without context. You can't say "worth it" without saying "to whom?" In this case, the Whom is AN, and I can't say whether it's worth it to them or not. Only AN can say whether the benefit of fostering such discussion would be 'worth' the hassle of administering it.

I appologize for my horrific English grammer and syntax (especially with slightly colloquial phrases such as "worth it")...It is quite different from my first language... :redface: ::Feels ashamed::...

Yes, as you say "only AN can say whether the benefit of fostering such discussion would be worth the hassle of administering it" which is why we are speaking of this now, no?

[Evil_Koala]

And again, the internets are not something you just dump something on. It's not a big truck! It's it's a series of tubes!

[Salainen]

And again, the internets are not something you just dump something on. It's not a big truck! It's it's a series of tubes!

...Who are you supporting? XD

[Evil_Koala]

...Who are you supporting? XD

Senator Ted Stevens.

[Salainen]

Senator Ted Stevens.

Ah, I see...You are harming my point of view XD

[Evil_Koala]

Ah I am sorry....

Why not add one? As an experiment...I mean.......Come on...

[Salainen]

Ah I am sorry....

Why not add one? As an experiment...I mean.......Come on...

Yes :P Anyway...The Mods here have become far to harsh lately...It is like Soviet Russia under Stalin in this forum now XD

[Evil_Koala]

You just contridicted yourself. Minus 10 points. *Z-Snap*

I demand Modship.

[Salainen]

You just contridicted yourself. Minus 10 points. *Z-Snap*

I demand Modship.

I did not contradict myself...XD

[Evil_Koala]

"Long Live the big P word" "Death to the big B word."

And then

"Omg is this Communist Russia or somethin? Geez, mang."

[Salainen]

"Long Live the big P word" "Death to the big B word."

And then

"Omg is this Communist Russia or somethin? Geez, mang."

XD "Under Stalin"...Meaning, not the revolution XD

Anyway, I was joking about "long live the proletariat" XD

[Evil_Koala]

I know. I tease.

Roflcopter. Spongebob is a life guard.

So is this a yes? Buck buck?

[Salainen]

Desslock has stopped responding :( I hope that I did not make him feel sorry for insulting my bad grammer :P

[Evil_Koala]

He's typing.

[Leader Desslock]

Nope, just didn't have anything to add.

[Salainen]

Nope, just didn't have anything to add.

Oh, ohkay...I am glad

[{NG}Fidel]

Which is why I dont find it a major issue but to talk like they are the victims is another thing entirely.
Both Parties have issues one can talk about them one cant.

Well, they're human, just like the rest of us. Or the rest of you, anyway. I'm not human.

The problem isnt wide spread but it isnt non existant either.
And its not politics I am talking about.

[Gene]

No amount of discussion at this point is going to bring back the SD&D. I think it's possible we drove more people away with the results of that forum than we gained. Regardless of whether you think yourself and others capable of handling the discussion maturely, history shows us that it will degrade into a small group of people both both extremes of the political spectrum, that need an inordinate amount of our moderator's time.
Does it gain us any business or revenue? Did we see any drop in business when we killed it? The majority of members were more than happy to see it removed. There are no shortage of political forums online to discuss every divisive issue under the sun. We decided the SD&D was detracting from what we actually are, an anime forum, not adding to it.

[Salainen]

No amount of discussion at this point is going to bring back the SD&D. I think it's possible we drove more people away with the results of that forum than we gained. Regardless of whether you think yourself and others capable of handling the discussion maturely, history shows us that it will degrade into a small group of people both both extremes of the political spectrum, that need an inordinate amount of our moderator's time.
Does it gain us any business or revenue? Did we see any drop in business when we killed it? The majority of members were more than happy to see it removed. There are no shortage of political forums online to discuss every divisive issue under the sun. We decided the SD&D was detracting from what we actually are, an anime forum, not adding to it.

It is not even the fact that there is no board dedicated to it...It is the fact that if a disscussion begins in "Offtopic discussions" it is closed or deleted that bother me...We should be free to discuss what we wish, and people who do not want to enter the discussion simply will not. This is only an online forum you know, the worst thing possible is that someone will become angry and start posting stupid things online...This is hardly a life or death scenario :P

And you said that it did not gain you "bussiness revenue"...Did it loose it? Did an unfathomable amount of people begin joining after you abolished it?
Also, it may not make a large amount more of people join, but it may persuade more of a certain type of people to join...This would mean more diversity in the AN community and more different types of people to talk to, which is the purpose for joining an online forum, no?

[Sharp-kun]

It is not even the fact that there is no board dedicated to it...It is the fact that if a disscussion begins in "Offtopic discussions" it is closed or deleted that bother me...We should be free to discuss what we wish, and people who do not want to enter the discussion simply will not.
We have rules against certain topics because of the problems they've brought in the past. Your argument can be applied to so many things on the forum:

"We should be free to post porn if we wish, and those who do not want to see it can just ignore the thread"

"We should be free to flame if we wish, and those who are offended can just leave the thread".

SD&D doesn't get special treatment from other rule violations.

This is only an online forum you know,
Primarily an anime forum.

the worst thing possible is that someone will become angry and start posting stupid things online...This is hardly a life or death scenario :P
No, but its more work for the staff. I modded the old SD&D board, it was more work then the rest of the forum combined. There are plenty of other boards out there for such topics.

[Salainen]

We have rules against certain topics because of the problems they've brought in the past. Your argument can be applied to so many things on the forum:

"We should be free to post porn if we wish, and those who do not want to see it can just ignore the thread"

"We should be free to flame if we wish, and those who are offended can just leave the thread".

SD&D doesn't get special treatment from other rule violations.
...There is a "Hentai" section, is there not? And people who do not wish to look at it, do not do so...Strange that people should be allowed to post what is essentially pornographic anime, but not allowed to speak of politics or philosophy?

Primarily an anime forum.
Yes, but simply an online forum...




No, but its more work for the staff. I modded the old SD&D board, it was more work then the rest of the forum combined. There are plenty of other boards out there for such topics.
Well, if there is a problem of no one wanting to moderate it, I would...

[Sharp-kun]

...There is a "Hentai" section, is there not? And people who do not wish to look at it, do not do so...Strange that people should be allowed to post what is essentially pornographic anime, but not allowed to speak of politics or philosophy?
The hentai board doesn't allow images. Also as a genre of anime, its relevant to the board. The "war on terror" or abortion is not what this forum is for.

Hentai discussion generally doesn't incite 20 page flamewars. Iraq does.

Yes, but simply an online forum...
Yes, and one that has a specific area of discussion.

Forums don't have to be places where anything and everything can be discussed.

[Leader Desslock]

...people who do not want to enter the discussion simply will not...
Again, I hate bringing this back to experience, but that's just not the pattern of the membership on AN. There are people, believe it or not, who are unable to refrain from commenting on certain topics. Even though they know they will not add anything constructive to the discussion, they will see it and feel a pathological NEED to make remarks in the thread.

Naturally, I have no idea who these people would be... :-"

...And you said that it did not gain you "bussiness revenue"...Did it loose it? Did an unfathomable amount of people begin joining after you abolished it?
Would you agree that AN has a right to get the sort of 'image' they want for their advertising dollar? What if they wanted to be associated with "a bunch of happy, harmonious anime fans", rather than "a diverse, well-spoken and infiormed audience"? Wouldn't you agree they have the right to make that choice?

If so, then think of it this way: the AN forum is just an advertisement, and the rules that shape the forum are the rules that give it the 'image' with which they want to be associated. Deep theosophical and political discussions are not the sort of image they want to pay for.

This would mean more diversity in the AN community and more different types of people to talk to, which is the purpose for joining an online forum, no?
Might be the purpose of joining one, but it's not necessarily the purpose of paying for one, is it? They're paying for this space.

You appear to be looking at this from a "foster the community" perspective, and I'm not sure how relevant that is.

Hentai discussion generally doesn't incite 20 page flamewars...
Yeah, we usually burn up after 5 pages, max.

[Salainen]

The hentai board doesn't allow images. Also as a genre of anime, its relevant to the board. The "war on terror" or abortion is not what this forum is for.
Perhaps not directly, but it is discussing it, including titles, asking for names of websites where it can be found...It may as well be a board for pictures, it would not be much further of a step.


Hentai discussion generally doesn't incite 20 page flamewars. Iraq does.
I believe that perhaps in the begining people may act badly in the board, but eventually people will rise to the occasion (because they do not want to humiliate themselve)...I speak from experience, I have been member to anime-based forums which had debate boards (forums with the same number or perhaps even more members then this has I believe) and very rarely were there "20 page flamewars."


Yes, and one that has a specific area of discussion.

Forums don't have to be places where anything and everything can be discussed.
I believe you misunderstood my meaning, when I said "only a forum" I meant that it is not as though taking a risk like this would possibly cause apocolyptic terrors :P
To address this though, if the problem you have for this is that you do not want it on an "anime forum" make it a subset of "offtopic discussions" the way that "polls, battles, and games" is.

[Bernard_Monsha]

I believe that perhaps in the begining people may act badly in the board, but eventually people will rise to the occasion (because they do not want to humiliate themselve)...I speak from experience, I have been member to anime-based forums which had debate boards (forums with the same number or perhaps even more members then this has I believe) and very rarely were there "20 page flamewars."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :lol: That is the funniest thing I have read all day. People cannot have a civil discusson on a topic as asanine as subtitled anime vs dubbed anime on this forum. There is no way they would be able to remain civil when an actual divisive issues that inflame deep seated passions. Far from riseing to the occasion it brings out the worst in people.

[Suiko Eiji]

Satu, I admire you for approaching this from an individual and intelligent point of view. Such views are not valid when concerning SD&D topics.

Sharp, is it still possible to pull up an old sample, typical post or two? While an Satu's logic and individual nature show what would be acceptable on the SD&D forum, Dess, myself, you, Bernie, et al, all know otherwise and this seems to be a lesson that can only be learned by example.

[Salainen]

Would you agree that AN has a right to get the sort of 'image' they want for their advertising dollar? What if they wanted to be associated with "a bunch of happy, harmonious anime fans", rather than "a diverse, well-spoken and infiormed audience"? Wouldn't you agree they have the right to make that choice?

Again I bring up the fact that so many anime or other theme-based forums on the internet that I have seen or even joined have debate boards...


If so, then think of it this way: the AN forum is just an advertisement, and the rules that shape the forum are the rules that give it the 'image' with which they want to be associated. Deep theosophical and political discussions are not the sort of image they want to pay for.

I would think that the image they would want to "pay for" is the image that this is a place for people who love anime, but not only for the very few obssessive fans who are interested in absolutely nothing else, and wish to talk about nothing else.


You appear to be looking at this from a "foster the community" perspective, and I'm not sure how relevant that is.

I was actually not the person who started that topic, I was responding to something another person said...


Might be the purpose of joining one, but it's not necessarily the purpose of paying for one, is it?

Actually, yes, it is I think. The reason that people join online communities (generally) is to meet and to talk to other people from other places or other backgrounds that you would not perhaps have the opertunity to talk to in other ways...Having a common interest like anime to speak about makes this even more enjoyable. However, If one wanted to learn about anime series, one could accomplish this by simply researching anywhere on the internet...People come here to talk, so allow them to talk ^_^

Also, no one answered as to how making it a part of "offtopic" board would harm the "image" of the forum...It is not as though I am asking you to convert the entire website to an open debate forum you know...

[Gene]

I would like for nothing more than to be able to include discussions about politics, religion, philosophy, etc. I enjoy them. We've tried it. I understand your arguments and see perfectly the opinion expressed. Unfortunately, experience has shown us otherwise. People can't keep it civil, the work in that one forum is equal to the entire rest of the forum combined, as Sharp mentioned, and it really doesn't add significantly to the character of the forum, other than gaining a reputation as a sub-forum to avoid for 95% of the members.

The forum isn't a place for a few obsessive fans, it's for anyone with even the slightest interest in anime. We work hard for it to be a friendly and inviting place, not elitist or condescending, and the SD&D forum doesn't fit into that approach. We know because we tried it based on the same preconceptions you're expressing.

We're not trying to 'dumb down' the forum or be politically correct. In the end, it was just too much stress and a huge pain in the *** to hassle with the SD&D forum all day and night.

[Caine]

Hentai discussion generally doesn't incite 20 page flamewars. Iraq does.


You don't do it justice, sharp. A 20 page flame war took lots of effort from CTL, UD, and other random people. And UD's posts were LOOOOOONG.

Seriously, Salainen, look at the next sub vs dub or bootleg thread. Those aren't as divisive as Iraq, abortion, or most other SD&D issues, but they still generate tension.

Look at ths SD&D boards on those other sites. If they have flamewars, disregard them, they are undesirable. If they are in communities consisting of only a few active posters, disregard them, AN is too large. If they require very active mods, disregard them, the mods here do enough already. Look at what's left. See if it really fits AN. Are topics really being discussed civily and intelligently? If so, you have found some rare sites. Please PM me links.

[Salainen]

Caine...Even at Elite Hunting (a forum which I do not like very much for quite a few reasons) they have a debate board, as well as a "current events" board, which could probably be put together but they do not XP and manage to run it fairly civily...Most of the people at Elite Hunting are also members here, or were members here...(I will send you the link if you would like me to do that...)

Also there is another example, but I need to ask my friend for the link to that...

[Bernard_Monsha]

I
We're not trying to 'dumb down' the forum or be politically correct. In the end, it was just too much stress and a huge pain in the *** to hassle with the SD&D forum all day and night.


I can attest to the fact that I actively participated in being a pain to 12Strings derriere. :naughty:

Also the original SD & D degraded to such a point that the regulars (includeing myself) stopped posting in it several months before it was put out to pasture. I doubt if it started up again many of the original crew like Zarth, gejutsuka, Namtose, and yuzuha would be tempted to come back. I myself would not support it's return namely because the ill will in that forum spilled over into other forums and venues.

[Noi]

Bernard_Monsha and 12String, I never seem why the problems that doomed the SD&D forum are still prevelant in the Japanese Culture forum. Just look at the Japanese Taboo thread which quickly degraded into personal attacks against individuals and cultures. A moderator has warned the participants before, but the personal attacks continue.

[Smith]

Bernard_Monsha and 12String, I never seem why the problems that doomed the SD&D forum are still prevelant in the Japanese Culture forum. Just look at the Japanese Taboo thread which quickly degraded into personal attacks against individuals and cultures. A moderator has warned the participants before, but the personal attacks continue.
Report the post(s) that are personal attacks or offensive. That is your best tool to assist the S-Mod team in moderating the AN forums.

[Sharp-kun]

Sharp, is it still possible to pull up an old sample, typical post or two? While an Satu's logic and individual nature show what would be acceptable on the SD&D forum, Dess, myself, you, Bernie, et al, all know otherwise and this seems to be a lesson that can only be learned by example.
I'll have a look when I get home. I saved several of the old SD&D threads, and I know I did alot of my posts in notepad. I'll see if I can find any good examples.

[Suiko Eiji]

I'll have a look when I get home. I saved several of the old SD&D threads, and I know I did alot of my posts in notepad. I'll see if I can find any good examples.

Thanks; I don't want you to go too much out of your way but I think a good example of the typical SD&D fanfare is needed.

Also the original SD & D degraded to such a point that the regulars (includeing myself) stopped posting in it several months before it was put out to pasture. I doubt if it started up again many of the original crew like Zarth, gejutsuka, Namtose, and yuzuha would be tempted to come back.

I'm inclined to agree about many of the Stars of SD&D not popping back in if it did come back. And, let's face it, I'm a pretty poor substitute for CTL.

[Gene]

This is like a big bar or family picnic. Sometimes it's just better to keep religion and politics out of those places, everyone will be happier. ;)

[Soluzar]

This is like a big bar or family picnic. Sometimes it's just better to keep religion and politics out of those places, everyone will be happier. ;)
Sure. To a certain extent, I agree with you. However, you can't have failed to notice that the forums are a great deal less active than they previously have been. Certainly, they were more active (and more interesting) when I first joined. You keep giving the problematic sections (clubs, SD&D, conversation threads) the axe, and I don't have a particular quarrel with you over that, but it's slowly eating away at the reason why people come back to this site.

Confusingly, you also seem inclined to overlook those things which I personally would regard as the real (if minor) problems affecting the site. It is of course possible that you simply do not share my views, so I'm inclined to be philosophical about that.

When people come to this forum, there is a chance which is greater than zero that they will take an interest in your retail or rental business, so therefore it's good for you if this forum is as attractive as possible.

Just two cents that you didn't want from a member who wasn't really around for the glory days of SD&D. Please note that I don't have any especial desire to see that section return at this time.

[Caine]

Sure. To a certain extent, I agree with you. However, you can't have failed to notice that the forums are a great deal less active than they previously have been. Certainly, they were more active (and more interesting) when I first joined. You keep giving the problematic sections (clubs, SD&D, conversation threads) the axe, and I don't have a particular quarrel with you over that, but it's slowly eating away at the reason why people come back to this site.

Confusingly, you also seem inclined to overlook those things which I personally would regard as the real (if minor) problems affecting the site. It is of course possible that you simply do not share my views, so I'm inclined to be philosophical about that.

When people come to this forum, there is a chance which is greater than zero that they will take an interest in your retail or rental business, so therefore it's good for you if this forum is as attractive as possible.

Just two cents that you didn't want from a member who wasn't really around for the glory days of SD&D. Please note that I don't have any especial desire to see that section return at this time.

There is truth in this. Clubs and SD&D are what got some members to join. I doubt they were the ones who purchased the most, but they did join. Convo threads kept people active. Again, they weren't the members who did the most purchasing, but I'm sure some did purchase.

I'm not for SD&D coming back, but I think that all voices should be heard, especially critical and questioning ones.

[Evil_Koala]

I demand a subsection of this.

Naturally, I have no idea who these people would be... :-"

Yo dawg...I still got them rules changed...lmfao...

[Caine]

Wow, after having looked at a certain thread in the off topic (which i originally thought would be closed as it deals with philosophy) I think i can understand Saleinen's point a lot better. Desslock is running the thing, and keeping it on track. I saw potential flame wars die. I think that had, James, me, Bernie, CTL, and UD tried the same conversation, it would have degenerated into flaming. This one is actually quite alive, and shows few signs of flaming, and those that did manifest appeared to be quashed quite well. It is now 12 pages long. This raises an interesting question.

How well enforced is the ban on "serious" topics?
How well defined is it?
Who enforces it?
Should things contnue this way?
Am I wrong to bring this up? (as in, to bring it to the mods attention when nothing is going wrong)

[Salainen]

There is truth in this. Clubs and SD&D are what got some members to join. I doubt they were the ones who purchased the most, but they did join. Convo threads kept people active. Again, they weren't the members who did the most purchasing, but I'm sure some did purchase.

I'm not for SD&D coming back, but I think that all voices should be heard, especially critical and questioning ones.

Hehehe...To allow my skeptical and slightly cynical remarks may be heard by all... :lol:

[Evil_Koala]

AN sells stuff...?

Omg on the TV. Hitler was in Paris...in the Disneyland. :(

[Gene]

It's not *all* about selling stuff. But in large part, it is about, "is this fun"? If a subforum like the SD&D is too much hassle and stress, then it needs to die. <shrug> We have enough stress.

As I've stated, I can understand the points of view expressed. No matter what we do though, people will complain. leave it, people will complain about it's presence. Remove it, it's absence. It's the same with the clubs and other forums that get killed off. There's no activity, but people complain when it's gone.

So it comes down to a compromise. We'd like it to be fun for all, but it can't be. You can't make everyone happy. So what's the best way to keep everyone, including our mods, happy? Trim the fat and the places where the work doesn't justify the result, like the SD&D. Does it take away from the forum? You could argue that, but those are the decisions we end up with. Don't really know how to explain it better than that.

We're always open to suggestions to improve.

[Soluzar]

It's not *all* about selling stuff.Forgive me if I choose to take this statement with a pinch of salt, based on what I've seen in my time here. No offense intended, but I don't think that I would be the Soluzar you have come to know and love if I took that statement at face value. :)
But in large part, it is about, "is this fun"?For whom? Since you've stated that it is not possible for the forums to provide be all things to all men, this must therefore indicate that you must be asking "is this fun?" for a specific subgroup. I'm curious to know precisely who that is.

If a subforum like the SD&D is too much hassle and stress, then it needs to die. <shrug> We have enough stress.
As previously stated, I'm not arguing in favour of bringing back SD&D. It can be fun to have discussions of contentious issues in a forum environment sometimes, but I am in full agreement with all the estimable members who have stated that the ANF demographic is not best suited to that kind of a debate.

So it comes down to a compromise.There are usually two sides to a compromise. The idea of a compromise is that party A gets some (but not all) of what they want, while party B gets some (but not all) of what they want as well. I don't recall anything much having been provided to compensate for the loss of the forums which have been removed, so that means that it's not really much of a compromise, unless you had originally intended to remove much more than you did. However I grant you that it could be viewed as a compromise when compared with removing the entire forum.

We'd like it to be fun for all, but it can't be. You can't make everyone happy. So what's the best way to keep everyone, including our mods, happy? Trim the fat and the places where the work doesn't justify the result, like the SD&D.That's certainly one way of looking at it. I'm not arguing with your methodology, or your reasons for doing what you did. I understand both entirely. However, what I am questioning is your results.

Does it take away from the forum? You could argue that, but those are the decisions we end up with. Don't really know how to explain it better than that.
I don't need to argue that. The results speak for themselves, and it makes me extremely sad. Since I discovered these forums, I have tried to be a part of the community here, and I feel that I have succeeded in a lot of ways. For that reason, it is upsetting to me to feel, as I do, that the community is in decline.

We're always open to suggestions to improve.
Then surely you shall receive some, from me. The private messages have been sent, and what you do with them is entirely your own affair. I don't harbour the delusion that my suggestions are the type of things you are likely to implement, but at the very least, I will be able to say that I did my best. :naughty:

[Salainen]

It's not *all* about selling stuff. But in large part, it is about, "is this fun"? If a subforum like the SD&D is too much hassle and stress, then it needs to die. <shrug> We have enough stress.


As Soulezar stated..."Fun" is a subjective term, if you would like the forum to be fun for the largest amount of people it can possibly be, a debate board would be an asset...

[Gene]

As has been stated, the debate boards quickly becomes less than an asset. It's pretty obvious that this could be argued back and forth all day. The SD&D forum is not coming back. We'll look over the rest of the suggs in the PMs you sent.

[Soluzar]

As has been stated, the debate boards quickly becomes less than an asset. It's pretty obvious that this could be argued back and forth all day. The SD&D forum is not coming back.
I can't state it often enough or clearly enough, until I'm quite certain that I've not been misunderstood. I don't especially desire the return of SD&D myself. I've just using this thread as a vehicle to gain your attention, so that I could raise my other notions and concerns with you. You'll notice that the return of SD&D is not mentioned in my PMs, nor would it be likely to gain a mention in any future PM you (or the team) receive from me. Aside from anything else, it was gone before I was well acquainted with the forum. Including lurking-time, I barely knew SD&D for 3 months. I miss the members it brought, not the threads. ;)

We'll look over the rest of the suggs in the PMs you sent.
Thank you for your time.

As Soluzar stated..."Fun" is a subjective term, if you would like the forum to be fun for the largest amount of people it can possibly be, a debate board would be an asset...
As far as I can tell, the best way to scratch this particular itch would be if a group of those AN members who are suited to the more serious form of debate found themselves a venue, and enjoy the fine sport of debating at another forum.

Before anyone assumes that I'm proposing yet another "Anti-AN" forum, allow me to state for the record that I am not. I'm simply suggesting that there might be a better place for that group of members who wish to debate to do so.

Personally, I'd fall into Leader Desslock's group of those who are bad at debate. Either there are those subjects on which I'm too emotive to keep a clear head, or I simply get too agressive. I like to believe that there are some subjects in which I can hold my own at the noble art of debate, but not for long... and not against a master of the form. I know my limits. It's fun to utterly, mercilessly destroy a bad argument though. That brings out my evil side. :devil:

[Leader Desslock]

Personally, I'd fall into Leader Desslock's group of those who are bad at debate.
Nowhere near. I'd put you and I about on par with one another, actually. I've got button that can be pushed, same as you. We all do. When I react instead of thinking, I can (and have been) eviscerated just as quickly as anyone. (Thanks, CTL)

As far as I can tell, the best way to scratch this particular itch would be if a group of those AN members who are suited to the more serious form of debate found themselves a venue, and enjoy the fine sport of debating at another forum.
Not a bad idea, and gods know we've got a bunch of extra fora clunking around if anyone feels the need to get it out of their system: EliteHunting, FocusPoint, etc.

[Soluzar]

Nowhere near. I'd put you and I about on par with one another, actually.
Only on my best days, Dess. The reason I appear to be on your level is because of all the times I decline to comment, knowing that I would soon be outmatched.

"It is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

[Evil_Koala]

That was a quote my History teacher told us in 7th grade. Roflcopter.

[Holy Knight]

I've been looking around on the member roster and noticed one named CTLesq. Is this the one you are all speaking of? I ask this since it seems all his posts in the SD & D section have been deleted. So I'm another clamoring for old posts.

As for getting inflamed in debates, I won't exclude myself (Soluzar knows what I'm talking about ^_^). I do not doubt I am mature enough to hold a debate civily in 95% of cases, but I sometimes will go a bit too far. However, I do seem to find my posts to have an aura of flamebait or at least an angry nature lately. Maybe that's just me, but that's the impression I get whenever I re-read my latest posts.

As for threads of a more serious nature, off-topic seems fine at this time, but it would be a nice addition if these threads could get their own place. I sometimes miss interesting discussions because other, more trivial threads are much more abundant.

I'd like to say I could discuss more interesting subjects on other forums, but it isn't the same as with a community you know or is knowledgeable enough to respond to the topic at hand. Elite Hunting has been mentioned, but the traffic is next to zero in the SD&D section it hosts and is therefore a forum I only visit about once a week.

I'm all for the SD&D section coming back, though I won't go against the mod's wishes to not bring it back. The reasons are entirely plausible. However, I could suggest that we nominate a new mod specifically for such a section if it were to come to be, unless that is out of the question.

Lastly, I consider "fun" debating a charged topic. There's nothing like the exchange of substantial information to spice up my day as well as a bit of light to hard thinking. Sadly, this does tend to veer towards the inflamatory side and so, I'll leave this up to the mods for ultimate decision.

[Bernard_Monsha]

CTL rarely post here anymore, not for almost a year I think. Even the people who hated his guts still loved his post being unremorseful and unapologetic for anything he ever said no matter how outrageous or callous.

[Lemina]

Yes, we are better off without the SD&D. All that forum did was degrade the quality of the forums overall!! AN once gave us the privilege to talk serious matters, but people abused the privilege by constantly flaming and bashing topics and/or members, and it just couldn't be kept civil. It was a huge hassle for the mods and admin to keep it under control at the time, and bannings were a common thing to find. Unfortunately, many members who were active in that forum left shortly after it was removed, and AN became considerably less active when all other off-topic forums were consolidated into one Off-Topic forum. As the Admin have stated, they wanted AN to take another approach, to go back to the basics, and be more of what they do business with, Anime. I respect this approach, and I've found AN to become a better place overall, though not completely the best because I still see a lot of spamming and flaming going on.

We're always open to suggestions to improve.

With that said, one suggestion I'd give the Admin to improve the forums would be to see more series specific forums be added!! Much of my own activity in the past had always been with the series specific forums that were removed, and with only 8 of the most popular series right now being around, I find this place to have gotten quite stale. We need more shoujo, more anime series to talk about other than having to find it in the General Anime forum. It would certainly keep AN more active.

[Suiko Eiji]

CTL rarely post here anymore, not for almost a year I think. Even the people who hated his guts still loved his post being unremorseful and unapologetic for anything he ever said no matter how outrageous or callous.

Doing a quick search on his forum posts, you're about right. It's kind of a shame, too. Even then, the only Anime discussions I remember him commenting on was things like Robotech; he was always much more active in the VG forums.

Though, I guess being in and out of Iraq for the past year and half or so would limit one's forum posting.