John, you are not anti-KyotoAni, are you?

[mugener]

.

well, just did some research on your reviews of it's animes, and...

maybe I can already figure out what kind of review will you have on their next work Kanon. :rolleyes:


You know, there's group of people who hate KyotoAni so much that they even
curse it screw up every time when it make new anime. (and keep fail :lol: )

Care to explain why this hatres keep happening on poor KyotoAni?

.

[Leader Desslock]

^ Which titles are we talking about, here? Just curious.

[mugener]

let's see'''

Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu!

Air TV

Full Metal Panic! The Second Raid

Suzumiya Haruhi

and then it's Kanon next.

.

[Leader Desslock]

Nothing he's said about Haruhi Suzumiya would make me categorize his reaction as "hate".

In his words:"So, in effect, I like the show, but I'm not compulsively devoted to it, and I don't think it's the greatest thing ever."

How is that even a harsh opinion, much less "hating and cursing"? :unsure:

[Gasaraki]

Well, just from another point of view, FMP is kidna hit or miss anyway, Air was really mediocre considering it's this huge game condensed into a few episodes, and with Haruhi, his point about the episode organization is valid. Alot of people have complained about that

[mugener]

Nothing he's said about Haruhi Suzumiya would make me categorize his reaction as "hate".

In his words:"So, in effect, I like the show, but I'm not compulsively devoted to it, and I don't think it's the greatest thing ever."

How is that even a harsh opinion, much less "hating and cursing"? :unsure:

actully, it's other people who hating and cursing, not John.

If John often visit sites like 2ch or 4chan, he should saw this kind of people before.

duno if he can explain why those people have such reaction on kyotoani, that's why I am asking here.

[Leader Desslock]

^ Oh, sorry. Misunderstood your post. My bad.

[Victory]

I browse 4chan /a/ regularly, and I have not seen posts that included resentment towards the animation company as a whole. The main line of thinking seems to be that the Haruhi anime is very good

Where are you getting your info?

[mugener]

I browse 4chan /a/ regularly, and I have not seen posts that included resentment towards the animation company as a whole. The main line of thinking seems to be that the Haruhi anime is very good

Where are you getting your info?

site like 2ch or 4chan doesn't keep their posts, so I can't really tell the "info" since those posts are just gone.

if you don't see it on 4chan, try 2ch or 2cat and start a topic post about kyotoani, then you'll know what I mean.

[Soluzar]

How is that even a harsh opinion, much less "hating and cursing"? :unsure:
In the same way that Reichu and her merry band think that you have a harsh opinion, possibly even "hatred and cursing", of Evangelion, perhaps? :naughty:

[John]

I do have to admit that it may seem as if I dislike Kyoto Animation, but that's not really true at all. I've never outright disliked any production from KyoAni. I simply have some complaints about some of their productions.

Munto felt like an experimental, first work. It didn't live up to its trailers.

I did really like Munto 2, except for its cliffhanger ending.

I've liked each FMP series more than the previous. Fumoffu was more consistent and entertaining than FMP, although its humor got a bit stale by the end of the series. Second Raid is the best of the three FMP series.

Based on what I watched of it, the Air TV series is nice looking, and it occasionally has unusually good animation, but it didn't feel like it had enough consistent character and story development to be interesting.

Suzumiya Haruhi did have impressive animation quality, but once again, its narrative and character development felt like it was secondary to superficial gimmicks like the non-sequential episode order.

I didn't like the 2002 Kanon anime series at all, so if I don't like the re-make, it will probably be because I don't like the story and characters in the first place, not because of the work of Kyoto Animation.

[SeannyB]

if you don't see it on 4chan, try 2ch or 2cat and start a topic post about kyotoani, then you'll know what I mean.
_because_ Suzumiya Haruhi was so hyped and (during its airing) loved on 4chan, it gets a lot of backlash from trolls fed up with the prevalence of Haruhi threads on the boards. That might make it seem like everyone hates Haruhi with a vengeance, but I'm sure the opposite is true. That's just how 4chan is. When Season 2 starts airing, there will be tons of episode discussion threads and imageboard parodies posted every day... just watch.

Air gets made fun of a lot because of its character designs, but most on 4chan who have actually watched it will say that it's at least decent. And isn't FMP2 universally regarded as a better series than FMP1 by everyone?

I think if there's an animation studio that's mostly hated by 4chan, it's Gonzo -- focusing on their recent output of horrendously animated TV series. At least Kyoto Animation can produce consistantly good animation.

[mugener]

Suzumiya Haruhi did have impressive animation quality, but once again, its narrative and character development felt like it was secondary to superficial gimmicks like the non-sequential episode order.


I have two questions, John.

Q1)
You still think this show's narrative and character development is not that good
even if you watch it in right(Haruhi's) order???

Does that mean, you think that this this show's narrative and character development is just not good enough, no matter what order it is?

Q2)
Since you don't really like Kanon and Suzumiya Haruhi,
do you still plan to watch Kanon 2006 and Suzumiya Haruhi 2nd season(if there's one) when they are out?

I mean, why bother to watch the shows that you don't like already???

.

[Soluzar]

[Do] you still think this show's narrative and character development is not that good even if you watch it in the right (Haruhi's) order?
I hope that I may comment on this even though I am not John, because I feel very strongly that "Haruhi's order" would be the wrong order in which to watch this anime. It has precisely the impact that it does because of the non-sequential narrative order. If I'd seen episode #14 as the sixth episode of the anime, which is where it fits in "Haruhi's order", then I'd have not found it so interesting. As it stands, all the answers to the questions the viewer has had during the course of this anime are answered only after the viewer has had a chance to guess at those answers. This kept me interested very effectively, and gave me a tremendous sense of satisfaction after completing the series.

Does that mean, you think that this this show's narrative and character development is just not good enough, no matter what order it is?If John does think this, then I'd have to disagree. I thought much the same until the final episode aired, but that changed my mind completely. The character development is all there, it's just presented in an unorthodox fashion. The second viewing of this anime is the better viewing, that much I will admit, but not in any order other than that in which it was broadcast.

Having said all of that, I can certainly see what would make John say these things, and I won't even try to pretend that this anime derves all the credit that it gets from some fans. It has been grossly overhyped by some, as many of the most popular anime often are.

[John]

Q1)
You still think this show's narrative and character development is not that good
even if you watch it in right(Haruhi's) order???

Does that mean, you think that this this show's narrative and character development is just not good enough, no matter what order it is?

Q2)
Since you don't really like Kanon and Suzumiya Haruhi,
do you still plan to watch Kanon 2006 and Suzumiya Haruhi 2nd season(if there's one) when they are out?

I mean, why bother to watch the shows that you don't like already???

Answer 1. I have no interest in watching Suzumiya Haruhi in its "correct" episode order. The way it was broadcast is its "correct" episode order. That's why it was broadcast that way. If I have to alter the way I watch the show in order to compensate for the original release, that's a clear sign that the original release was flawed and ineffective.

Now I'll get into some spoilers. I personally found it very disappointing that the first 13 episodes of Suzumiya Haruhi built up the idea that Haruhi was looking for something unusual and supernatural, but the final episode reveals that, in fact, Haruhi is actually just looking for love. Koizumi actually hints at this all the way through by always saying that Kyon is the person that Haruhi wants. But he's not unusual in any way.

Furthermore, watching the series in chronological order probably wouldn't be very interesting because most of the "big" events happen early in the story development. The anime virtually had to mix up its chronology because if it didn't the second half of the series would be terribly dull compared to the first half.

Let me stress, once again, that I didn't think the show was bad. I simply didn't think it was quite the masterpiece that many other fans believe it is.

Answer 2. I liked Suzumiya Haruhi enough to watch all of it. If there's more anime made, I'll definitely watch it. Will I watch the new Kanon? I'll try it out. Experience has taught me that it's impossible to really know what a show is like without watching it. I'll watch any anime regardless of what it is or how old it is. If I like it, I'll try to continue watching it. If I don't like it, at least I have first-hand knowledge of why I don't like it.

[ransom]

Well, just from another point of view, FMP is kidna hit or miss anyway, Air was really mediocre considering it's this huge game condensed into a few episodes, and with Haruhi, his point about the episode organization is valid. Alot of people have complained about that

You are the first person I have ever heard that complains about FMP! Fumoffu or Second Raid. Criticisms of the original FMP! are valid, but Kyoto Animations versions were excellent.

I have never heard of Kyoto-bashing before either. AIR and Haruhi had fandom that was bigger than the anime's themselves. They are both very good shows that were well produced and very popular.

Haruhi fandom in particular has practically become a social phenomenon.

[mugener]

Answer 1. I have no interest in watching Suzumiya Haruhi in its "correct" episode order. The way it was broadcast is its "correct" episode order. That's why it was broadcast that way.

I have to correct you, John.

Chronologial(Haruhi's) order is what this show should be presented, because DVD set use this order.

Which means, that the chronologial order will remain when time pass by,
and broadcast order only exist in fansub.

-----------------------------------------------------

There's one more thing I need to metion:

Why must anime has big event as it's ending???

In my view, chronologial order has an more "Mature" feeling then broadcast order,
since it's just like what life would be.

I am surprised that an anime expert like you didn't see it this way.

.

[Ken-Ohki]

John, you make me feel inadequate. Your answers always impress me. Darn you, I just can't measure up!

[SeannyB]

People take Haruhi way too seriously. I've always seen the shuffled broadcast order as part of the show's humor, just to add to the Lynch-like "what.. is.. going.. on?!?" feel of the show.

If it was just for the purpose of moving the exciting stuff to the back, they could've achieved that through writing. There's not a reason to jumble up all the other episodes along with the single dramatic episode anyway.

[Leader Desslock]

I don't take it too seriously, but I do think it sounds like one of the few original and intelligent titles I've heard coming out in a while.

I'm a big metafiction fan. Haruhi's a metafiction title, from the sounds of it. The idea that it's going to be working on multiple levels has me interested.

I'm not sure I understand John's poor reaction to the theme of "Haruhi discovering what she wanted all along". That sounds about right for a 13-episode series, to my mind. Lain was 13 episodes and only managed to say "We're all connected" - and it didn't manage to be an entertaining watch. I respect Lain as a title, but it's duller than watching paint dry. Is the weird art style a gimmick? Sure. Is bombarding the viewer with a ton of red herrings and pseudoscience a gimmick? Sure. But I don't think that takes away from the title. Lain's a good title because it uses those techniques effectively. NTHT weighed in with "in war, everyone loses", and Haibane Renme had something to say about the nature of sin/redemption. In all these cases, it's how the story was told that's important, not just what was said by the time the final bell rang.

Haruhi has a simple message and uses a couple of techniques to produce an effect to help highlight that message. But rather than being a dry watch, it sounds like it's entertaining and fun. Throw in a dash of light-hearted existentialism, some homage to anime conventions.... that's really all I'd expect to get out of 13 episodes. That's more than a lot of 26 episode series deliver these days, to my mind.

Does anyone have a link to a reputable quote regarding the series episode order on the DVDs? You know, like a company press release, a product listing, or maybe an episode listing from a DVD jacket? Something? All I can find are rumors on blogs, and given the sensational phenomenon that Haruhi seems to be turnnig into, I don't really trust what the fanbase has to say.

[mugener]

Does anyone have a link to a reputable quote regarding the series episode order on the DVDs? You know, like a company press release, a product listing, or maybe an episode listing from a DVD jacket? Something? All I can find are rumors on blogs, and given the sensational phenomenon that Haruhi seems to be turnnig into, I don't really trust what the fanbase has to say.

Here's Japan Amazon list of Haruhi DVD (http://www.amazon.co.jp/s/ref=nb_ss_d/249-3996013-2633927?__mk_ja_JP=%83J%83%5E%83J%83i&url=search-alias%3Ddvd&field-keywords=%97%C1%8B%7B)

3 DVDs already out, and yes, they are in chronologial order, no doubt.

If the origin country(Japan) use chronologial order for their DVD set,
I don't see any reason that US DVD set will use broacast order instead of chronologial order.

You are really lucky, Desslock, for watching this show first time in correct order when it come to US. ^_^
That broadcast order is history which only exist in fansub now.

.

[Leader Desslock]

The closest statement Babelfish could make out in the Amazon.co.jp page was "With TV televising also the story which has been televised to random with DVD has become time serial order."

That was a user comment, not a technical detail. Maybe it was written there, but Babelfish couldn't make sense of it. Some of it was pretty funny to read, though.

Thanks anyway!

[hiroaki]

Haibane Renme had something to say about the nature of sin/redemption.

Haibane was composed based on Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World, but Haruhi came from ranobe.

Sekai-kei,Ranobe, and Late night anime, they will get money efficiently. However, I think them to be frivolous.

[ink-chan]

Uh, I read Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of the world and I love Haibane Renmei but, I had no inkling they were connected. Where did you read this?

[hiroaki]

Uh, I read Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of the world and I love Haibane Renmei but, I had no inkling they were connected. Where did you read this?

In an interview in the magazine Animerica, ABe stated that the series was inspired by Haruki Murakami's novel Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World, half of which takes place in a walled city with no apparent outside. Some fans believe the series contains influence from another Murakami novel, The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle, in which the main character spends a large amount of time at the bottom of a well.

http://www.answers.com/topic/haibane-renmei

[Holy Knight]

Personaly, I would recommend watching Haruhi the way it was broadcasted, since then you would get the "last episode" at the end of the series rather than a little less than half-way through. Seems to me that there's a direct contradiction in the way things play out from episode 6 onward if things are done chronologicaly. Watching out of order gave the show a rare freshness and an attitude that can only be seen every few years. Watching in order is to be done after having seen the show, I say.

As for Air TV, whatever anyone says, I'll hold it as a quaint and picturesque anime on a higher order of magnitude compared to other series. There are too many themes whithin it that could be applied into Physics or Mathematical concepts for it to be ignored (though that is an unintended side-effect). And so, it holds a special place on my hard disk.

[John]

I have to correct you, John.

Chronologial (Haruhi's) order is what this show should be presented, because DVD set use this order.

Which means, that the chronologial order will remain when time pass by,
and broadcast order only exist in fansub.

-----------------------------------------------------

There's one more thing I need to metion:

Why must anime has big event as it's ending???

In my view, chronologial order has an more "Mature" feeling then broadcast order, since it's just like what life would be.

I am surprised that an anime expert like you didn't see it this way.

I wasn't aware that the R2 DVD release had the episodes in a different sequence. Honestly, that seems even stranger to me. If the DVD release chronology is the "correct" order, why was the original release out of order, then? Was the original broadcast order a mistake? Was it officially decided that the show would be better if the episodes were in proper chronological order? The fact that the episodes are in chronological order on the DVD release seems to confirm my original criticism that the non-linear broadcast was an ineffective gimmick.

I never said that I thought Haruhi should end with a "big event." I've always said that I thought the TV broadcast was structured so that the show would present its big events in the middle and end of the series, but I've always argued that the show would have been better if it had originally been released in chronological order. Except, if the show is in chronological order it feels unbalanced and aysmetrical with all the action and "big events" in the beginning, and no sign of those events having any impact on the characters in the second half of the show.

[Leader Desslock]

Was it officially decided that the show would be better if the episodes were in proper chronological order? The fact that the episodes are in chronological order on the DVD release seems to confirm my original criticism that the non-linear broadcast was an ineffective gimmick.
What I find strange is this: If it wasn't written to be shown out of chronological order, then it's odd that it worked so well for so many people. I have a hard time believing it's just luck.

I've seen R1 releases that presented episodes out of broadcast order because the licensors thought it would be more marketable that way (usually as part of a package of edits).

What I'm wondering: Is this a case of a Japanese marketing edit? They wanted to broaden the appeal of the series by putting it in an order that most people would find more 'normal'? I know most people don't care for metafiction techniques, so I can see where this might happen, odd as it might sound.

Don't get me wrong; I also acknowledge the possibility that it was just a cheap marketing stunt - but I find that just as hard to believe as a marketing edit. I mean - think of it this way: Imagine an American company wanted to make a Harry Potter cartoon. They make the first novel into 13 episodes ('cause 13's a spooky number), but then the marketing guys come up and say, "You know what would really make a good buzz? If we showed it in random order."

There's no way that would ever happen. Marketing guys just don't have that kind of power. It's an established title, there's no reason to believe that it'll die without enough 'buzz', so the producers would never take that chance. But even if they did - for the series to the accidently 'work' out of sequence and become more popular? The odds against that are.... really hard to believe.

I guess I'll wait until I read an interview with the folks who created the animated series. Either that or I'll watch it for myself. Something here doesn't seem to add up no matter which way I call it, but the hype around the title is making it hard for me to separate reality from speculation.

[hiroaki]

I wasn't aware that the R2 DVD release had the episodes in a different sequence. Honestly, that seems even stranger to me. If the DVD release chronology is the "correct" order, why was the original release out of order, then? Was the original broadcast order a mistake? Was it officially decided that the show would be better if the episodes were in proper chronological order? The fact that the episodes are in chronological order on the DVD release seems to confirm my original criticism that the non-linear broadcast was an ineffective gimmick.
I don't know your Japanese skill, but I think you have good skill. I present it.
石原監督はオリコンのアンケートにて、「アニメでは原作のエピソードの順序をシャッフ ルしていますが、この意図と発案のきっかけを教えてください」という質問に対し、「原 作付きアニメ作品というものは、原作既読者にとっては『きちんとアニメ化されているか ?』という単なる確認作業になりがちなものです。ストーリーは知っていますから。それ で今回『ハルヒ』のアニメ化に際して「原作ファンにも一から純粋に楽しんでもらいたい 」という作り手側の気持ちもありまして、原作ファンすら「次にどうなるか分からない」 という構成を考えた結果こうなりました。原作自体も短編は時系列が入れ替わっていたり するので、アニメの構成もこれでいけるだろうということになりました」と 言っている。 (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B6%BC%E5%AE%AE%E3%83%8F%E3%83%AB%E3% 83%92%E3%81%AE%E6%86%82%E9%AC%B1#.E3.82. A2.E3.83.8B.E3.83.A1)
The anime was praised from the original fan about the denial of the
time series of the novel.

Becoming the problem when the novel becomes a movie is how to show the interlinear.
They answered this in the denial of the time series.