V-Boys Sure Can Rap

[Rain]

Oh my god, four minutes of sheer awesomeness; I cracked up so bad.

http://jane-finch.com/videos/yougotbeef.htm

You Got Beef?

[VidelCoolGirl]

This guy = AWESOME.

You gotta have REAL HOMIEZ!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dXramAyAwUM&mode=related&search=

EMO SONG!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qU_kcjr_bec&mode=related&search=

What is life? Why, it's a series of tubes that...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3BJtOPssu6E&mode=related&search=

[Leader Desslock]

Laughable? Sure. But then again, I find most rap I've heard to be laughable as a musical genre.

I would challenge anyone to objectively critique that video and describe how it's any worse than any other rap out there.

[The Million Dollar Prons]

Laughable? Sure. But then again, I find most rap I've heard to be laughable as a musical genre.


That's only because Desslar doesn't care about black people.

[Fobb]

I'll get on it as soon as I can Dess.

[Bernard_Monsha]

Laughable? Sure. But then again, I find most rap I've heard to be laughable as a musical genre.

I would challenge anyone to objectively critique that video and describe how it's any worse than any other rap out there.


Not enough crotch grabbing.

[Fobb]

Okay, as you said:

I would challenge anyone to objectively critique that video and describe how it's any worse than any other rap out there.

KRS-ONE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB1B8Q2eJ8w)
It's a freestyle. When you listen to it, don't take it at face value. Don't think of it as a rhyme about himself, but try understanding what everyone he mentioned had in common.

I'll find some more and put it up for you.

EDIT:
KRS-ONE "Rappaz R in Dainja (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0ePc4q_sfY)
TRANSLATED: Rappers are in Danger

[Fobb]

Zack de la Rocha/Last Emperor/KRS-One - CIA (Criminals in Action) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDVs8ixHnUg)

I'll keep putting them up if I find any more. Unless someone tells me why I shouldn't be.

[Leader Desslock]

^ Don't bother, since it's not what I asked for.

What I said was that I would welcome an objective critique of the V-Boy video and discussion of how it fails (in its technical merits) to be 'good rap'.

I wasn't being snotty or closed minded when I said that. I was sort of fishing to see if anyone was capable of expressing the merits of rap as a genre beyond "It's good. You either get it or you don't."

Whenever someone posts a link to a rap artists lyrics and says, "This guy's lyrics are real poetry" I have to confess that I've always and without exception found them wanting in the 'poetry' department. I just don't see the 'art'. I see a lot of broken meter, slant rhyming and very little language use I'd classify as 'skilled'. I see some inconsistent imagery and metaphor in some of the better stuff, maybe. I don't see much more than that, if I evaluate rap lyrics as 'poetry'.

The only skill I see in rap at all is in its improvisational nature. It takes real skill to come up with clever lyrics off the top of your head to a beat. Most people can't do it. Then again, most people can't improvise ANYTHING well. Lots of comedians can get up and run through a bit, but very few can incorporate the audience's reactions into their act to make it more than it was before.

But does the fact that live improvisational rap requires skill make it a musical artform? I don't see it. There's very little musicality to it. The lyrics are very often divorced from the pretense of music behind them; that is, the music doesn't add meaning to the lyrics, nor do the lyrics enhance the music in return. If anything, I'd classify rap as a verbal skill, I guess.

And you know - I guess it's not really important. The majority of pop music is just derivative sound that people find pleasant to listen to. If that's all rap is, then hey, that's all it has to be. But if that's the case, I do wonder why it is people keep slapping these 'art' and 'poetry' labels on rap. I mean, Brittany Spears is a pop star; nobody ever pretends that her sound is 'artistic' or 'poetic'. It's just bubblegum sound that some people enjoy hearing, for reasons that entirely escape me.

Ironically, if we wanted to post a Spears video and critique it on its technical merits as 'music', most of us would have no problem doing that. We could analyze the structure of the music and find it exceedingly simple. We could analyze the imagery in her lyrics and debate how effectively they express the theme of the song. We could find breaks in the meter of her lyrics, slant rhymes, all of the fun stuff, then conclude that in any objective sense, Spears' music is poorly written and lacks talent. Most of us would agree, when shown the argument.

So why don't I ever see rap held to this same standard? If it's a 'musical artform', then why should it be exempt from the level of critical analysis that every other genre of music receives?

Anyway - why the rant? Well, since we're all in basic agreement that the V-Boys' rap video is amusing, I thuoght that would be a good place to start a real discussion on the technical merits of rap. (much like M.D.Geist is a good place to start a discussion on the merits of anime) Maybe I'll finally hear the points that will inspire me to classify it as musical artistry. Or hey - maybe it'll just do me good to hear that someone's actually bothering to look at rap critically.

But please - dont take the tack of "listen to this, you'll see." I've heard enough of that from too many people for too many years.

[Fobb]

I have to go right now, but I'll read it.

[VidelCoolGirl]

Ah, Dess, it was meant to be a stupid humorus thread, and you turned it serious. You are wonderful for that. "Is V-Rap REALLY good enough?"

~MM-HMM

[Fobb]

What I said was that I would welcome an objective critique of the V-Boy video and discussion of how it fails (in its technical merits) to be 'good rap'.
That's an objective term. For some, Vanilla Ice is good rap, for some G-Unit is good rap. It's all a matter of opinion.


I wasn't being snotty or closed minded when I said that. I was sort of fishing to see if anyone was capable of expressing the merits of rap as a genre beyond "It's good. You either get it or you don't."

Let's see if I can

Whenever someone posts a link to a rap artists lyrics and says, "This guy's lyrics are real poetry" I have to confess that I've always and without exception found them wanting in the 'poetry' department. I just don't see the 'art'. I see a lot of broken meter, slant rhyming and very little language use I'd classify as 'skilled'. I see some inconsistent imagery and metaphor in some of the better stuff, maybe. I don't see much more than that, if I evaluate rap lyrics as 'poetry'.
"Poetry" can be used in the sense of everything you put there, like meters and vocabulary, and everything else like that. But it can also be classified as the kind of poetry that is an expression of self. Poetry can be described as words that lay out what kind of person you are, and what you are feeling. There are many rap songs out that are "poetic" in that sense. I'll get more into it later.


The only skill I see in rap at all is in its improvisational nature. It takes real skill to come up with clever lyrics off the top of your head to a beat. Most people can't do it. Then again, most people can't improvise ANYTHING well. Lots of comedians can get up and run through a bit, but very few can incorporate the audience's reactions into their act to make it more than it was before.
True. Rap does have an improvisational nature. But then again, everything that's being said is preconceived. It does take skill to make it all flow together with the beat though. As does most music.


But does the fact that live improvisational rap requires skill make it a musical artform? I don't see it. There's very little musicality to it. The lyrics are very often divorced from the pretense of music behind them; that is, the music doesn't add meaning to the lyrics, nor do the lyrics enhance the music in return. If anything, I'd classify rap as a verbal skill, I guess.

Thus making it "poetry". But it's a little frustrating not being able to give examples of where there is a connection between the music and the lyrics. One comes to mind that I'm dying to share.


And you know - I guess it's not really important. The majority of pop music is just derivative sound that people find pleasant to listen to. If that's all rap is, then hey, that's all it has to be. But if that's the case, I do wonder why it is people keep slapping these 'art' and 'poetry' labels on rap. I mean, Brittany Spears is a pop star; nobody ever pretends that her sound is 'artistic' or 'poetic'. It's just bubblegum sound that some people enjoy hearing, for reasons that entirely escape me.
Just like in any type of music, there is subcategories to rap as well. There's the kind that you listen to in your car, or play in the club that goes well with dancing. And then there is the kind that is more of the poetic side of rap, that delves into lifes problems and illustrates a struggle. But just for the record, I'm going to have to agree with you on why people enjoy that pop music they play on the radio.


Ironically, if we wanted to post a Spears video and critique it on its technical merits as 'music', most of us would have no problem doing that. We could analyze the structure of the music and find it exceedingly simple. We could analyze the imagery in her lyrics and debate how effectively they express the theme of the song. We could find breaks in the meter of her lyrics, slant rhymes, all of the fun stuff, then conclude that in any objective sense, Spears' music is poorly written and lacks talent. Most of us would agree, when shown the argument.
I haven't listened to Spears, so I wouldn't know, sorry.


So why don't I ever see rap held to this same standard? If it's a 'musical artform', then why should it be exempt from the level of critical analysis that every other genre of music receives?

So true. It deserves critism. Open mindedness being brought to the table, anything you do deserves critism (you meaning everyone).


Anyway - why the rant? Well, since we're all in basic agreement that the V-Boys' rap video is amusing, I thought that would be a good place to start a real discussion on the technical merits of rap. (much like M.D.Geist is a good place to start a discussion on the merits of anime) Maybe I'll finally hear the points that will inspire me to classify it as musical artistry. Or hey - maybe it'll just do me good to hear that someone's actually bothering to look at rap critically.
Which brings me to my view on that music. It's the side of music most people hear and most people hate. "Gangsta Rap". Meant to intimidate and show "Don't **** with us, we'll beat you down, and them some". I didn't see anything wrong with it. I like it, I like a little "anger" in my music. Mood music as they say.

[/quote]
But please - dont take the tack of "listen to this, you'll see." I've heard enough of that from too many people for too many years.[/QUOTE]
It's so hard not to.

[Midoriko87]

:lol: I think you people like typing just for the Sake of Typing. OH NO! If my typing speed falls below 50WPM and my post is less than 2,000 Characters long, this bus will EXPLODE!!! :lol:

Let's see, "Music." The Denotation of Music.
1) Encyclopedia Britannica Online [Encyclopaedia Britannica Article]: art concerned with vocal or instrumental sounds for beauty of form or emotional expression, usually according to cultural standards of rhythm, melody, and, in most Western music, harmony. [The article is pretty long, but those crazy bastards want money. Are you Deucin' kidding me?!!! Who would pay for... Nevermind.]
2) Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary: 1 a.: the science or art or ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationship to produce a composition having unity and continuity b: vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony.
3) Dictionary.com [American Heritage Dictionary]: 1. The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre. 2. Vocal or instrumental sounds possessing a degree of melody, harmony, or rhythm.
4) Dictionary. com [WordNet]: 1: an artistic form of auditory communication incorporating instrumental or vocal tones in a structured and continuous manner.

:lol: Um, I kinda had to make sure those definitions were consistent. Well, seeing as how I've heard Hip-Hop/Rap that meets the above conditions, I guess the genre could be classified as music.

[Fobb]

I think you people like typing just for the Sake of Typing.
I do it for the sake of knowledge.

[Leader Desslock]

"Poetry" can be used in the sense of everything you put there, like meters and vocabulary, and everything else like that. But it can also be classified as the kind of poetry that is an expression of self. Poetry can be described as words that lay out what kind of person you are, and what you are feeling.
If "words that express one's self... what kind of person you are, and what you are feeling" could be considered poetry by themselves, then MySpace would be classified as poetry. It isn't. In order to be considered poetry, a certain level of language mastery has to be present. The ability not only to express oneself, but to do it in an effective manner with language and imagery that draws in and relates meanings above and beyond the definitions of the words themselves - that's what needs to be demonstrated.

Mind you, rhyme and meter alone don't ake poetry either, or else "There once was a man from Nantucket" would be a poem, not a limerick.

Thus making it "poetry".
Not necessarily. Rhetoric is a semi-improvisational verbal skill, but nobody calls it poetry.

But it's a little frustrating not being able to give examples of where there is a connection between the music and the lyrics. One comes to mind that I'm dying to share.
Feel free to show all the examples you want - but don't JUST post examples and consider them to be self-evident. That's all I ever get. You want to show examples of rap with technical merits that commend it to be 'musically artistic'? Fine. But then kindly explain how the example demonstrates the music and the artistry I'm supposed to be seeing.

I haven't listened to Spears, so I wouldn't know, sorry.
I chose her as a generic example of a performer most people would agree is just a no-talent fad created by the industry. You can toss in anyone comparable you want. ^_^

[Fobb]

Okay. I feel the best way to settle this is fact an example. Summarize for me what you would like to see in a rap song, I'll find one for you, and on top of that, will explain it's significance. Would that be okay with you?

[Leader Desslock]

^ I leave it to you to select what you believe to be a significant work.

[Fobb]

I have plenty of songs that I consider significant, but I thought I'd let you do the deciding since I am on the defense and you on the offensive (so to speak). But if you don't want to, I'll choose, but ONLY if you don't want to.

[Leader Desslock]

If we were talking about significant works of medieval literature, I'd choose. We're not. It's your call.

[Fobb]

Alrighty, but it's a hard one.

Alright, you said, you thought most rap lacked imagery and poetry, which leads me to Tupac. But then again, there's Immortal Technique. So it's a choice between them two. You wanted someone that could make a beat that would go well with the lyrics, and a lot of people say Tupac doen't accomplish this (I don't see how). They also say he's more of a poet than rapper. So I'm stuck between showing you either "Dance with the Devil" by Immortal Technique, or showing you some of Tupac's poetry since he is a poet and rapper. But I could also show you "Violent" by Tupac, but it's a little...controvercial? And on top of that, just since I've seen your picture photochopped into Darth Vader's body, I'm compelled to show you The Last Emperor. Big on Star Wars and Marvel Comics and the such. So here are the choices:

• Immortal Technique - Dance with the Devil. Shows how a rapper can make words into a picture, and make you feel like you are there.
• Tupac - Rose that Grew from the Concrete. Not a rap song, but poetry by a rapper/poet.
• Tupac - Violent. Shows how a rapper can mold words into a story/picture, and how the beat can enhance the music (in my opinion)
• Last Emperor - Secret Wars. Stan Lee characters vs. Great MC's of their times. Shows creativity in rap.

I narrowed it down. Wanna throw a dart and see which one you'd rather hear, have one you'd prefer, or should I pick between them?

[Leader Desslock]

Pick whichever one you want, but let's go back to where this all started.

We were making fun of the V-Boys 'rap' saying it wasn't good, and I said that I'd welcome someone that could describe why their work failed in comparison to other rap, based on its technical merits. That progressed into a "why isn't rap more commonly judged on its technical merits as a musical artform" tack.

What I'd recommend you pick is a good example that shows the musical artistry present in the work. We're talking about all of the things I mentioned previously. I don't care if Tuapc writes poetry. If he writes poetry, we can have a separate discussion of his skills as a poet in another thread about poetry. This thread is about the musical artistry in rap.

If we were to talk about folk/rock music, I might hold up Paul Simon as an example of an artist with the skills I'm talking about. The ability to write lyrics with effective structure and imagery that communicates his theme, and to put those lyrics to music which reinforces those images.

If I was going to talk about a movie soundtrack that does the same thing (I'm taking odd examples here), I could analyze South Park: The Movie. Not only is it an effective parody of animated feature films, but it's also a successful example of one, since they do all the same things found in a Disney animated feature musical. I could tear apart the plot & character development, and show how the music is part of the narrative structure. That sort of thing.

You're talking about rap. Show me an example of how it all comes together. Well thought-out and structured lyrics written to express a theme effectively, augmented by music which strengthens the theme being related. Or whatever. Something along those lines. Genuine talent.

[Fobb]

I'd have to say Dance with the Devil then.

I didn't understand most of that. You talk to smart :P

Jp jp. But yeah, let's try Dance with the Devil. Want me to find it for you or can you do it yourself?

I can't analyze it at this moment, because I have to leave for class soon.

[Leader Desslock]

I'd have to say Dance with the Devil then...
Just so we're on the same page, this is what we're talking about?

http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/Immortal-Technique/Dance-With-the-Devil.html

[Fobb]

Yep. But you have to hear it to get the full "effect" of it. You can read the lyrics though, if you want.

[Rurouni Saiyan]

For Leader Desslock:

Rather than rap, have you tried hip-hop? I've had this discussion with my roommate and we've concluded that hip-hop is what rap should be and rap is what everyone thinks hip-hop is. The way I see it, rap is manufactured and has no substance, a la the majority of what one would see on BET. On the other hand, hip-hop has substance and emotion. One can actually feel the emotion put behind each lyric. I great example would be Fort Minor. Everyone should give that a listen.

Ultimately, hip-hop, as with all music, comes from the heart. Rap is just mass produced crap, which I agree with you.

Also, hip-hop is a culture in and of itself. 'Rap culture', is just a mass produced fad pushed out by the mass music conglomerate that needs to die.

[Fobb]

For Leader Desslock:

Rather than rap, have you tried hip-hop? I've had this discussion with my roommate and we've concluded that hip-hop is what rap should be and rap is what everyone thinks hip-hop is. The way I see it, rap is manufactured and has no substance, a la the majority of what one would see on BET. On the other hand, hip-hop has substance and emotion. One can actually feel the emotion put behind each lyric. I great example would be Fort Minor. Everyone should give that a listen.

Ultimately, hip-hop, as with all music, comes from the heart. Rap is just mass produced crap, which I agree with you.

Also, hip-hop is a culture in and of itself. 'Rap culture', is just a mass produced fad pushed out by the mass music conglomerate that needs to die.
Here is a quote you should read:
"Rap is what we do
Hip Hop is how we live"
-KRS-One

It's often confused. Rap is rap, hip hop is MCing/tagging/break dancing/and DJing.

[master terrence]

Wow that director sucked. How sad, this was played at the international fest. The whole concept was trash... then again the concept of the rap song wasn't brilliant either. If it were me, I would have done something more asian than ****ing basketball. He could have used the song to tie in with something actually Vietnamese-American. Who thought of this dumb idea? bunch of vietnamese jumping two black dudes. I saw no Vietnamese pride in that video, he's just trying to act like he's tougher than everyone else. FAIL. You would think that because they were Viet rappers that they would be somewhat different than the mainstream rap.

Much love for the hondas though.

[Fobb]

Wow that director sucked. How sad, this was played at the international fest. The whole concept was trash... then again the concept of the rap song wasn't brilliant either. If it were me, I would have done something more asian than ****ing basketball. He could have used the song to tie in with something actually Vietnamese-American. Who thought of this dumb idea? bunch of vietnamese jumping two black dudes. I saw no Vietnamese pride in that video, he's just trying to act like he's tougher than everyone else. FAIL. You would think that because they were Viet rappers that they would be somewhat different than the mainstream rap.

Much love for the hondas though.
Word life. That's what was going through my head, and that I couldn't put into words for Dess

[Haro!]

I actually didn't think that Viet rap was bad. Swore a bit excessively but it wasn't completely 100% bad. The video reminded me of videos in the early 90's when they had more modest budgets and you pretty much just had a video with your crew doing something or another. The camera work was bad though. As to the subject matter, hey, that's how we asian gangsters live so can't really say much else about the subject matter. :lol:

[Gannon]

:lol: LMAO @ That video.

For Leader Desslock:

Rather than rap, have you tried hip-hop? I've had this discussion with my roommate and we've concluded that hip-hop is what rap should be and rap is what everyone thinks hip-hop is. The way I see it, rap is manufactured and has no substance, a la the majority of what one would see on BET. On the other hand, hip-hop has substance and emotion. One can actually feel the emotion put behind each lyric. I great example would be Fort Minor. Everyone should give that a listen.

Ultimately, hip-hop, as with all music, comes from the heart. Rap is just mass produced crap, which I agree with you.

Also, hip-hop is a culture in and of itself. 'Rap culture', is just a mass produced fad pushed out by the mass music conglomerate that needs to die.

:lol:

Bull.

[Suki]

Lmao. It's funny how our culture listens to most pop. And while this kid tries to be a rapper.
Our language isn't for rap. It sounds terrible.

Still, it's funny to watch.

[Leader Desslock]

I'd have to say Dance with the Devil then.
...
I can't analyze it at this moment, because I have to leave for class soon.
I'd forgotten about this thread until I saw PE187's new sig. Thought I'd revive it.

Having gone through the lyrics of Dance With The Devil, I found it to be... wholly unimpressive, as far as poetry is concerned. I thought I'd ask what you see in it, because I saw nothing that impressed me on any level.

Structurally and metrically, it's simplistic and unevenly implemented. The language used is inconsistent in a number of places. A high percentage of slant rhymes. The imagery is unoriginal and 'convenient'. I see nothing that suggests to me that the author had a strong command of even dilectical English. Those are my technical observations, and I can cite examples if you need.

I mean, yes, it's a narrative. but even judged as a narrative, I think it's kinda lame. I have a hard time believing that the music would make up for these deficits, but I'd give it a shot if you think it'd help. The line "and listen cause the story that I'm telling is true" cause me to laugh aloud.

So what do you see in the lyrics? What am I missing?

[Fobb]

For me, reading through the lyrics gives the same idea that you got, but personally I find I like rap better listening through it. It's called "spoken poetry". Not just poetry. If possible, you should listen to it.

[Leader Desslock]

Okay, so.... what was I supposed to get out of it? I thought it was supposed to be an example of some kind of... artistry? That's the part I'm not seeing at all. I don't see how speaking a poem can suddenly add artistry to sub-par lyrics.

Emily ****inson's poetry, even when set to the best music, will still only be Emily ****inson's poetry. That'd be my point.

[Fobb]

Alrighty, that's fair. Can't please them all.

[Gannon]

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure just reading the lyrics from ANY genre of music doesn't have the same effect as listening to the actual song.

Also: Poetry? LMAO!

[Fobb]

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure just reading the lyrics from ANY genre of music doesn't have the same effect as listening to the actual song.

Also: Poetry? LMAO!
That's what I tried saying, but oh well

And YEAH ninja, POETRY.

[White hell]

^ Don't bother, since it's not what I asked for.

What I said was that I would welcome an objective critique of the V-Boy video and discussion of how it fails (in its technical merits) to be 'good rap'..

That's a personal opinion, which is subjective to the person's taste. I felt the song was okay, but, it isn't less of a rap song than this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TadsZ0iI_7M


I wasn't being snotty or closed minded when I said that. I was sort of fishing to see if anyone was capable of expressing the merits of rap as a genre beyond "It's good. You either get it or you don't."..

Again, that subjective to persons opinion. I like the mixture of rythmes, metaphors, with an intresting beat. that's what "I" like about rap.



Whenever someone posts a link to a rap artists lyrics and says, "This guy's lyrics are real poetry" I have to confess that I've always and without exception found them wanting in the 'poetry' department. I just don't see the 'art'. I see a lot of broken meter, slant rhyming and very little language use I'd classify as 'skilled'. I see some inconsistent imagery and metaphor in some of the better stuff, maybe. I don't see much more than that, if I evaluate rap lyrics as 'poetry'.

Rap is dependent on many factors, it isn't just the lyrics alone. Infact RAP is an acroynmn for Rythmn And Poetry. The goal is to form metaphors, play on words, rythmes (Of course), while harmonizing with the beat. That's very difficult, infact during freestyles, the rapper usually has a beat in their head. The Rapper is even encourage to play a beat in their head to develop His/Her "flow"



The only skill I see in rap at all is in its improvisational nature. It takes real skill to come up with clever lyrics off the top of your head to a beat. Most people can't do it. Then again, most people can't improvise ANYTHING well. Lots of comedians can get up and run through a bit, but very few can incorporate the audience's reactions into their act to make it more than it was before.

This is where freestyles come in, imagine having to create lyrics right of your head, and stick to main idea, while rythming your words.



But does the fact that live improvisational rap requires skill make it a musical artform? I don't see it. There's very little musicality to it. The lyrics are very often divorced from the pretense of music behind them; that is, the music doesn't add meaning to the lyrics, nor do the lyrics enhance the music in return. If anything, I'd classify rap as a verbal skill, I guess.

Incorrect, A rapper is incourage to Speak at the pace of his beat, the faster the beat the faster the rapper, very difficult.


So why don't I ever see rap held to this same standard? If it's a 'musical artform', then why should it be exempt from the level of critical analysis that every other genre of music receives?

Rap IMO, like any other genre is subject to critique like any other genre.

[Leader Desslock]

Rap is dependent on many factors, it isn't just the lyrics alone. Infact RAP is an acroynmn for Rythmn And Poetry.
So it would stand to reason that 'good' rap needs both halves to be good. Rythm without poetry wouldn't work, nor would poerty without rythm. Am I right?

If so, then could someone who think that "Dance With The Devil" piece is 'good' explain to me the piece's poetic merits? 'Cause I don't see them. As I said, I'm curious whether what other people see could be articulated beyond "you get it or you don't", which is where the analysis of the aforementioned piece seems to have fallen.

Incorrect, A rapper is incourage to Speak at the pace of his beat, the faster the beat the faster the rapper, very difficult.
Yeah, but you can only impart just so much meaning by varying the tempo. That's true in any form of music.

[White hell]

So it would stand to reason that 'good' rap needs both halves to be good. Rythm without poetry wouldn't work, nor would poerty without rythm. Am I right?.

Not really, A rap does not need to follow it's fundementals to be good. I was speaking about the basics of rap, having rythmn and poetry is it's fundementals. You can get the basics right, and still have a bad song.


If so, then could someone who think that "Dance With The Devil" piece is 'good' explain to me the piece's poetic merits? 'Cause I don't see them. As I said, I'm curious whether what other people see could be articulated beyond "you get it or you don't", which is where the analysis of the aforementioned piece seems to have fallen.

I can't really say much on that, but generally I feel the whole "RAP is poetry thing" is taken out of context. Unless a poet needs a beat in his head to verbally express his/her piece, poetry and rap are generally different.


Yeah, but you can only impart just so much meaning by varying the tempo. That's true in any form of music.

Well, the tempo effects the mood,and tone of the piece. But, that's only if said rapper really wants to get his point across. fundementally, a varying tempo is not needed. Let's just put it like this, if rap was a game, the rules would be.

You must rythme
You must stick to a topic
You must stick to the beat


Freestyles vary honestly, if someone is beatboxing then your restricted to that beat, but if it's acapella, then it's up to the rapper to make the beat in his head.

[Leader Desslock]

Not really, A rap does not need to follow it's fundementals to be good. I was speaking about the basics of rap, having rythmn and poetry is it's fundementals. You can get the basics right, and still have a bad song.
So.... if I were to take that literally (and I'm not), I would conclude that there's no objective way to say that one particular rap is better than another, since the fundamentals are not a prerequisite for quality.

I know what you realistically meant, I think. You meant that the fundamentals are good, but there are times when an artist "bends" those rules to transcene them and make something better. Just like poetry, really.

If that's the case, then let's take the example I'm trying to get us to talk about. If the fundamentals of Rhyme, Topic and Beat are important (as you list), then I'd conclude that the Dancing With The Devil piece was not very good:
- Its rhymes are slanted quite often, and the language to produce those rhymes is forced and artificial in places.

- Its topic isn't that original, it's preachily told, and the narrative is either simplistic or 'convenient', in my opinion.

- Metrically, that beat is forced. The bounce of the language does not produce an even beat when spoken naturally.


So my questions, then, on a technical analysis level:

a) Is it actually considered a 'good' piece? Or is it just one of those 'favorite' pieces that people like to listen to, but nobody seriously gives any technical merit? (like a lot of pop music)

b) If it's considered a 'good' piece, then am I missing how it's achieving the fundamentals? If so, how? If not, then what's it doing that transcends them?

[White hell]

So.... if I were to take that literally (and I'm not), I would conclude that there's no objective way to say that one particular rap is better than another, since the fundamentals are not a prerequisite for quality.
Correct, that's subjective to the listeners opinion.



I know what you realistically meant, I think. You meant that the fundamentals are good, but there are times when an artist "bends" those rules to transcene them and make something better. Just like poetry, really.
Pretty much, one doesn't have to follow the fundementals for a song to be good. that includes rap.



If that's the case, then let's take the example I'm trying to get us to talk about. If the fundamentals of Rhyme, Topic and Beat are important (as you list), then I'd conclude that the Dancing With The Devil piece was not very

Haven't heard that song in a while, how about I post a hip hop song, and you critique it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyddR8bN3ts

Not the best version, the person who put it up messed up the beat.

[Leader Desslock]

how about I post a hip hop song, and you critique it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyddR8bN3ts
Being completely honest here, I have to tell you that I was unable to finish that clip. If I was to express my reaction to that song in one sentence, that sentence would be: Oh, my GODS will you just shut the **** up?!

I'll try again later, when I more receptive. Right now, I merely found it very annoying noise, and naught else.

That said, I really don't want to turn this into a "Try this! No, try THIS!" thread, which was why I ignored the issue of hip hop when it first came up.

The original V-boys rap piece was the starting point, and since we all agreed it was laughable, I wondered aloud whether it was actually possible for the difference to be articulated between that and a rap piece that was recognized as "artistically respectful". I was given to understand that Dancing With The Devil was such a piece, and if that's still the case, I'd prefer we kept the discussion on the relative merits between that and the V-Boys rap.

Or, if it can't be articulated, then we drop it at "you don't get it" and ... that's it. Doesn't really matter to me, I just thought it was a good opportunity to ask about what I might be missing and possibly gain an appreciation for the form.

[White hell]

Being completely honest here, I have to tell you that I was unable to finish that clip. If I was to express my reaction to that song in one sentence, that sentence would be: Oh, my GODS will you just shut the **** up?!

I'll try again later, when I more receptive. Right now, I merely found it very annoying noise, and naught else.

That said, I really don't want to turn this into a "Try this! No, try THIS!" thread, which was why I ignored the issue of hip hop when it first came up.

The original V-boys rap piece was the starting point, and since we all agreed it was laughable, I wondered aloud whether it was actually possible for the difference to be articulated between that and a rap piece that was recognized as "artistically respectful". I was given to understand that Dancing With The Devil was such a piece, and if that's still the case, I'd prefer we kept the discussion on the relative merits between that and the V-Boys rap.

Or, if it can't be articulated, then we drop it at "you don't get it" and ... that's it. Doesn't really matter to me, I just thought it was a good opportunity to ask about what I might be missing and possibly gain an appreciation for the form.

Desslock it's up to you, I can't tell you what to like and not like. If you don't like a song than you don't like it. Hip hop is a kind of genre at it's basics that has a repetitive beat and focuses on lyrics, that's how it is.

[Haro!]

I think the video was laughable not so much the rhyming.

[White hell]

Well, it's really old, 1991 to be exact.

[Fobb]

Was that Busta Rhymes? Brings back memories of those days huh?

[White hell]

Was that Busta Rhymes? Brings back memories of those days huh?

MC Busta Rythmes, Charlie Brown, and Dinco D. yeah, I miss those days.

[Leader Desslock]

... I can't tell you what to like and not like. If you don't like a song than you don't like it...
That's why I was trying to have a discussion of the technical merits of one piece versus another. I'm not talking about whether I like something or not, whether I *should* like something or not... none of that. For the purposes of this discussion, it really doesn't matter if I like something or not.

Whether I like Respighi's The Pines Of Rome or not is irrelevant in a discussion of the technical merits of claissical pieces of music. I can objectively analyze the elements in the piece and give my opinion on whether they worked or not, cite examples that achieved the same effect in a better way, etc. Whether I like Emily ****inson's poetry or not (I don't), I can still discuss her poems in terms of their structure and imagery, and compare the quality of "Because I Could Not Stop For Death" with Robert Frost's "The Road Not Taken".

We were all laughing at the V-boys, which tells me that what they did was bad. OKAY, so then we agreed that Dancing With The Devil was generally regarded as a "good" example of rap - maybe not to everyone's liking, but at least perceived as generally having some merit.

FINE. Now is there anyone here who can tell me (whether you like it or not) what the difference between those pieces is musically? Can you tell me why a connosieur of the artform would consider one "worthy" and the other "not so much"? If they were both to be reviewed in a rap industry publication, can you tell me what the reviewer might say to recommend one piece critically, but pan the other?

Or is it just "I like what sounds nice... tee hee!" and an empty head toss? Is that all it is?

Look, I'm just trying to understand. The difference can either be articulated, or it cannot. If it cannot, so be it. I just thought that since we have a few seemingly articulate rap fans around, maybe it might make for an interesting discussion topic. If not, then... just go back to laughing at the V-boys and forget I even asked.

[White hell]

That's why I was trying to have a discussion of the technical merits of one piece versus another. I'm not talking about whether I like something or not, whether I *should* like something or not... none of that. For the purposes of this discussion, it really doesn't matter if I like something or not.

Whether I like Respighi's The Pines Of Rome or not is irrelevant in a discussion of the technical merits of claissical pieces of music. I can objectively analyze the elements in the piece and give my opinion on whether they worked or not, cite examples that achieved the same effect in a better way, etc. Whether I like Emily ****inson's poetry or not (I don't), I can still discuss her poems in terms of their structure and imagery, and compare the quality of "Because I Could Not Stop For Death" with Robert Frost's "The Road Not Taken".

We were all laughing at the V-boys, which tells me that what they did was bad. OKAY, so then we agreed that Dancing With The Devil was generally regarded as a "good" example of rap - maybe not to everyone's liking, but at least perceived as generally having some merit.

FINE. Now is there anyone here who can tell me (whether you like it or not) what the difference between those pieces is musically? Can you tell me why a connosieur of the artform would consider one "worthy" and the other "not so much"? If they were both to be reviewed in a rap industry publication, can you tell me what the reviewer might say to recommend one piece critically, but pan the other?

Or is it just "I like what sounds nice... tee hee!" and an empty head toss? Is that all it is?

Look, I'm just trying to understand. The difference can either be articulated, or it cannot. If it cannot, so be it. I just thought that since we have a few seemingly articulate rap fans around, maybe it might make for an interesting discussion topic. If not, then... just go back to laughing at the V-boys and forget I even asked.

If your comparing "Dancing with the devil" with V-boys, than I can't eleaborate. like I said, I haven't heard the song in a while, hence I can't compare them, I never laughed at the v-boys.I made a comment about V-boys, I said there song is okay. I neither compared it to "Dancing with the Devil" nor did I bring up that song. I did however post a new piece, if you want me to comapre that to V-boys, no problem.

[Fobb]

Alrighty, I think I'll try one last time at comparing the two genres. That V-Boy one can be considered good to someone, and might be a joke to another. Nowadays, overly gangster is becoming a little bit of a joke unless you have a message you want to convey. The "Dance with the Devil" deserves merit, if only in the sense of it conveying a (somewhat) positive message, which is, don't get into that kind of stuff, because it will take your life over. The V-Boy rap: I'll kill you, your a busta, get yo *** out my face. Dance with the Devil: Make wise decisions.

Besides the message, lyrical content is also a factor in a "good rap" (as so many put it). Like Gannon said earlier, just reading through the lyrics is no way to judge any kind of music. Poetry is meant to be read, rap is meant to be sung. The delivery in itself is a major part of the rap. If it's the greatest use of words in history, and it doesn't flow well with the song, it's just another rap if not worse, subpar rap. (Par. Rap. Get it? lol).

And that is my friend is the basic outline of judging a rap. I might be missing a few things, but those should cover most of the basics.

[White hell]

Okay I sat down and watched the first video, fully.

-The chorus is VERY annoying
-Visually it was hilarious, reminds me of kids I see on the bus.
-The theme of the video is very ambiguous, What is he talking about?
-The BGM is Horrid
- Nobody even attepts to stay with the tempo.
-I can't even bob my head to it.
-Hard Gay has a better song.

[Takumi Fujiwara]

*on the very first song/video* that's pretty funny, I think he needed to swear a little more o.O I never knew that when you couldn't think of a good word to rhyme you could just back up the "f word" with another "f word" :P. But seriously, that was pretty craptacular, I LMAO when the "crew" "rolled up" in a neon, some pos that looked like an old toyota tercel, and a 4 door accord (nicest of the bunch but still running on factory wheels *lame*), I think that pretty much shows the videos budget pretty well though. The lack of Bentleys, Ecalades on 26's, and exotic sports cars with some rare african animals skin for interior was an interesting change of pace.

[White hell]

*on the very first song/video* that's pretty funny, I think he needed to swear a little more o.O I never knew that when you couldn't think of a good word to rhyme you could just back up the "f word" with another "f word" :P. But seriously, that was pretty craptacular, I LMAO when the "crew" "rolled up" in a neon, some pos that looked like a ford probe, and a 4 door accord (nicest of the bunch but still running on factory wheels *lame*), I think that pretty much shows the videos budget pretty well though. The lack of Bentleys, Ecalades on 26's, and exotic sports cars with some rare african animals skin for interior was an interesting change of pace.

This is why we have "Dem franchise boyz", sigh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWT1mbfwP3w

^ this is why I don't listen to rap anymore.

[Takumi Fujiwara]

This is why we have "Dem franchise boyz", sigh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWT1mbfwP3w

^ this is why I don't listen to rap anymore.

heheh yep rap songs make me laugh anymore they don't even make sence, a whole song about the size of the wheels on your car o.o wow thats original, and for the record (not that anyone cares) the rim is the outer part of the wheel that the tire bead seats in, so if your rollin' on rims that means your lacking tires, which in everywhere except rap-land is consitered a bad idea.

[White hell]

heheh yep rap songs make me laugh anymore they don't even make sence, a whole song about the size of the wheels on your car o.o wow thats original, and for the record (not that anyone cares) the rim is the outer part of the wheel that the tire bead seats in, so if your rollin' on rims that means your lacking tires, which in everywhere except rap-land is consitered a bad idea.

They even have a dance, christ.

[Fobb]

Rollin on rims = slang.

[Leader Desslock]

If your comparing "Dancing with the devil" with V-boys, than I can't eleaborate. like I said, I haven't heard the song in a while, hence I can't compare them...
So here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38XrYPGLWuM&mode=related&search=

There it is. And here are the lyrics:

http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/Im...-the-Devil.html

Yes, there are typos there, and yes, I'll limit my discussion to the actual lyrics, not the mondegreens. ^_^

Anyone who wishes to elucidate me on the 'musically artistic' talent being exhibited now has what they need for their half of the discussion. Personally, I think it sounds worse spoken than read. I was able to make up for some of the broken meter mentally, but when they spoke it, it was more uneven than it looked.

I mean, was the endless sample of Andy Williams' Where Do I Begin (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/a/andy+williams/where+do+i+begin_20007907.html) meant to be music? It doesn't even match thematically. They couldn't find a song that might've meant something and added to the expression of the song? And what was up with Flunky # 2 interjecting the "ooo... boogieman" thing? Is that some musical theory of "Two People = Dramatic Emphasis"?


EDIT: The "double voice for emphasis" doesn't happen in the linked version. It happens in a bunch of other versions on YouTube. My bad. It's lame, anyway.

[Lord Dagoth]

At PublikEnemy: Like I admitted in a previous thread, some rap does do a good job of portraying a human struggle, but I would hardly call it poetry. I respect your tastes in music, and I even respect (some) rappers as musicians, but don't try to make the music more than it actually is.

[Takumi Fujiwara]

Rollin on rims = slang.

I did know that, I was just making a point that for the last 100 years of automobile history before the great invention of wheels that are larger then a trashcan lid, that a rim was part of the wheel and not the whole assembly.

[White hell]

So here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38XrYPGLWuM&mode=related&search=

There it is. And here are the lyrics:

http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/Im...-the-Devil.html

Yes, there are typos there, and yes, I'll limit my discussion to the actual lyrics, not the modegreens. ^_^

Anyone who wishes to elucidate me on the 'musically artistic' talent being exhibited now has what they need for their half of the discussion. Personally, I think it sounds worse spoken than read. I was able to make up for some of the broken meter mentally, but when they spoke it, it was more uneven than it looked.

I mean, was the endless sample of Andy Williams' Where Do I Begin (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/a/andy+williams/where+do+i+begin_20007907.html) meant to be music? It doesn't even match thematically. They couldn't find a song that might've meant something and added to the expression of the song?
Can't we just use my song :'(

I did not pick immortal tachnique, no offence to public enemy, his LP's aren't that well known. how about I pick a classic song and we compare?

[Haro!]

This is why we have "Dem franchise boyz", sigh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWT1mbfwP3w

^ this is why I don't listen to rap anymore.
Man that is so funny, the things they put rims on :lol:

Though they had a better flow than V-rap guy I'll admit.

[Rain]

You guys are ruining my thread with rap "music" videos that are atrociously crappy, but not hilariously crappy.

[Takumi Fujiwara]

I have to say I liked the piano in dance with the devil, too bad that guy keeps singing over the top of it.

^oh come on mel you had to at least chuckled at the 4 wheeler riding on 23's in the "dem franchise boys" vid.

[White hell]

At PublikEnemy: Like I admitted in a previous thread, some rap does do a good job of portraying a human struggle, but I would hardly call it poetry. I respect your tastes in music, and I even respect (some) rappers as musicians, but don't try to make the music more than it actually is.

Rap isn't about the human struggle, it's about what the artist wants it to be about.

[White hell]

You guys are ruining my thread with rap "music" videos that are atrociously crappy, but not hilariously crappy.

The very first song you put was crappy, it's not getting worst than V-Boys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TadsZ0iI_7M >>>>>> V-Boys.

[Takumi Fujiwara]

The very first song you put was crappy, it's not getting worst than V-Boys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TadsZ0iI_7M >>>>>> V-Boys.

penis song ftw

[Lord Dagoth]

Rap isn't about the human struggle, it's about what the artist wants it to be about.

Pardon my french, but no **** sherlock. It was a reference to a previous thread that obviously went right over your head.

[Rain]

The very first song you put was crappy, it's not getting worst than V-Boys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TadsZ0iI_7M >>>>>> V-Boys.

I never said the V-Boys rap "music" video wasn't crappy.

To tell the truth, it is as atrocious a "professional music" video can get without it being a rudimentary amateurish video made by some "gangsta wigga in the hood."

Its only redeeming quality (not saying much) is that it is amusingly hilarious to watch, whereas the other videos posted in this thread were not.

EDIT - HARD GAY! HOO!

[White hell]

Pardon my french, but no **** sherlock. It was a reference to a previous thread that obviously went right over your head.

Actually it didn't, I read the thread where publik enemy said it was about human struggle, I was simply correcting him; sherlock.

I never said the V-Boys rap "music" video wasn't crappy.

I be to differ, the video was atroscious. The only way it can be reddemed if the V-boys themselves came to my house and apologies.

[Lord Dagoth]

my bad dawg. We cool?

[White hell]

my bad dawg. We cool?
Sure, no problem what so ever.

[Rain]

I be to differ, the video was atroscious. The only way it can be reddemed if the V-boys themselves came to my house and apologies.

Did you even read my second post?

If you did: learn to read. If you did not: learn to read first before reading it.

Since I'm such an empathetic person, I'll make it even easier for you. Here:

To tell the truth, it (V-Boys "music" video) is as atrocious a "professional music" video can get without it being a rudimentary amateurish video made by some "gangsta wigga in the hood."

Simple paraphrase: The V-Boys "music" video is God-awfully atrocious.

[White hell]

Did you even read my second post?

If you did: learn to read. If you did not: learn to read first before reading it.

Since I'm such an empathetic person, I'll make it even easier for you. Here:



Simple paraphrase: The V-Boys "music" video is God-awfully atrocious.

I did get it, I just disagreed when you claimed it was redemable because it was funny.

[Rain]

I did get it, I just disagreed when you claimed it was redemable because it was funny. Next time read my post entirely before you claim someone can't read.

I did read it in its entirety.

I be to differ, the video was atroscious.

Primary disagreement. (The one I addressed.)

The only way it can be reddemed if the V-boys themselves came to my house and apologies.

Secondary disagreement.

I thought they were separate (punctuation). But anyway, okay, I get your post now.

[Gannon]

1. It's not poetry
2. Using songs as examples just because you like them isn't going to get you anywhere
3. In all honesty I think I'd have some success in enlightening Dess on this subject, but I really don't care about the genre enough to defend it (plus I've been feeling lethargic lately).

Oh yeah: That V-Rap wasn't amusing in the slightest.

[White hell]

I did read it in its entirety.



Primary disagreement. (The one I addressed.)



Secondary disagreement.

I thought they were separate (punctuation). But anyway, okay, I get your post now.

Glad we cleared that up, it was primary my fault I forgot to quote what I disagreed with. Sorry about that.

[White hell]

I think people just got the wrong idea, rap is NOT Poetry. though there are poets who are rappers, the fundemental difference between rap and poetry is that a beat is necessary. wether it manifest in your head or it's being played by an audio device. They can be similar, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing.

Anyway, the V-boys song was garbage, I already explained why. desslock you wanted me to demonstrate a "Good Rap". I posted one, wether you like it or not is up to you. but, as you said earlier, you don't need to like it to critique it, so, here it is again:

Good Rap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyddR8bN3ts)

Please give me your opinion of it.

[Leader Desslock]

^ You said that was hip-hop the first time, not rap.

To be honest, I couldn't hear a difference. I'll see if I can find lyrics. It didn't sound like it was about anything, and I couldn't even finish it the first time I tried. We'll see.

I personally don't see what's wrong with the other one. I mean, it's not like I'm any more familiar with it than you are.

[White hell]

^ You said that was hip-hop the first time, not rap.

To be honest, I couldn't hear a difference. I'll see if I can find lyrics. It didn't sound like it was about anything, and I couldn't even finish it the first time I tried. We'll see.

I personally don't see what's wrong with the other one. I mean, it's not like I'm any more familiar with it than you are.

Hip Hop is the term to refer to the sub culture that revolves around the music rap.

But, that's not my point, I did not claim that "Dancing with the devil" holds more merit than V-boys, Publik Enemy did. I don't think it's fair I have to defend a song he picked.

Besides, I had to listen to V-BOYS rap, gimmie a break. :(

[Leader Desslock]

Dude. I could at least FINISH the V-Boys video.

*sigh* Fine, I'll try AGAIN.... Oi vay...

Okay. I listened to it. My impressions:

1) It's fluff. Seriously. If you were going to analyze Simon & Garfunkel's work for musical & lyrical greatness, you wouldn't start with "Feelin' Groovy". If you were going to discuss the musical talents of Lennon & McCartney, you wouldn't start with "I Want To Hold Your Hand".

These guys might be the best songwriters in American history, but nobody'd ever know it from this song. It's fluff.

2) What the hell was up with the drunken piano playing the first and third times through the chorus? Care to explain the artistic meric of that particular technique to me? They let a cat run across the ol' ivories? What?!

Yes, I know those chords aren't entirely random. But I don't see what the clash added to the piece.

3) It had a more complex rhyming scheme than Dancing With The Devil, and the language, though forced, feels less so. I don't really see anything else there.


So perhaps you could tell me what the heck I'm supposed to be seeing? All I got out of it was ... fluff that bent the language to a rough cadence, interrupted by a drunk on a keyboard.

This is better than the other piece... how?

[Haro!]

Sorry LD, if you can't tell the difference between the two, as in a comparison, I don't think you can ever get it.
White Hell, Leaders of the New School, brings back memories, thank you.

[Leader Desslock]

^ I could identify them from samples, so I can hear "a difference". They sound different. Whay I seriously do not hear at all is any sort of artistic difference between all three, which includes the V-boys piece.

If someone could tell me what it is I'm supposed to be hearing, maybe I could listen for it.

I mean, we've got:
1) a V-Boy gansta poser rant - not a lot to recommend it, although they do seem to be the more 'musical' selection. The lead's voice is kind of annoying, and although it's not related to the music at all, this is the most embarassing piece to look at.

2) a heavy-handed morality lesson - Really nothing to recommend here beyond a more positive message than the other two.

3) a bit of fluff - The language feels slightly more natural, but it's about nothing.

Nobody can tell me anything beyond that?

[Fobb]

1. It's not poetry
2. Using songs as examples just because you like them isn't going to get you anywhere
3. In all honesty I think I'd have some success in enlightening Dess on this subject, but I really don't care about the genre enough to defend it (plus I've been feeling lethargic lately).

Oh yeah: That V-Rap wasn't amusing in the slightest.
Well, he asked nicely to get it cleared up so it's only polite.

[Fobb]

Alrighty, I think I'll try one last time at comparing the two genres. That V-Boy one can be considered good to someone, and might be a joke to another. Nowadays, overly gangster is becoming a little bit of a joke unless you have a message you want to convey. The "Dance with the Devil" deserves merit, if only in the sense of it conveying a (somewhat) positive message, which is, don't get into that kind of stuff, because it will take your life over. The V-Boy rap: I'll kill you, your a busta, get yo *** out my face. Dance with the Devil: Make wise decisions.

Besides the message, lyrical content is also a factor in a "good rap" (as so many put it). Like Gannon said earlier, just reading through the lyrics is no way to judge any kind of music. Poetry is meant to be read, rap is meant to be sung. The delivery in itself is a major part of the rap. If it's the greatest use of words in history, and it doesn't flow well with the song, it's just another rap if not worse, subpar rap. (Par. Rap. Get it? lol).

And that is my friend is the basic outline of judging a rap. I might be missing a few things, but those should cover most of the basics.
No one seemed to respond, so I thought I'd bring it back up.

[Leader Desslock]

No one seemed to respond, so I thought I'd bring it back up.
No offense, but that doesn't tell me anything. I'm looking for the other half. Those are the abstract concepts, not the application of them

Could you maybe apply those concepts to the samples in question (we now have 3 which we've now all seen & read), and tell me how they're relevant? Can you give me examples of how ... I dunno - you tell me. What did one piece do right that another one did poorly - and how can you tell?

Delivery's important? Fine. How can you tell effective delivery from noneffective delivery, and can you cite me an example where one piece has good delivery, but the other one doesn't?

You guys are acting under some sort of "good rap is self evident" theory, and I'm telling you I can't see the difference between the three (beyond what I mentioned). Certainly, I can't see any artistic merit that one has that the other does not.

Tell me what I'm supposed to be listening for. Is this so hard? We could do it with any other kind of music, why not rap?


EDIT: Okay, so here's another approach...

You've been appointed to teach a lecture on rap musical theory at Juliard. These are the three songs that have been selected for your class materials. The goal is to teach the listeners what to do, and what NOT to do, when creating rap. It's also supposed to teach students how to critically analyze works of rap for publishing reviews in musical trade magazines.

From that perspective - teach away. Every work has technical merits and demerits, strengths and weaknesses. Compare and contrast these three works on a technical basis, for the benefit of an audience that doesn't know how to begin to perform that anaylsis.

Are they all good? Tell how 'good' can be recognized technically, and cite examples of where each piece demonstrates those qualities. Are they all bad? Tell how their technical failings can be recognized. Did one piece do something better than another? What is it, and how can this be determined. Cite examples.

Does that make it more clear?

[Fobb]

Let me post the part two I had, it might explain a little more:

Chuckie Akenz (the V Boy) started with the central message "Don't mess with us" and had to stick to it through the whole song, because he got rid of the main point too quick. He had to improvise on timing by saying what would happen if you messed with them. In Dance with the Devil he got his point across in sequences. It started by explaining his life, and what was going on inside his mind. Then the next verse was about his fall in society. He became a "snitch" and lost respect among his peers, and what he had to do to get his respect back. The next one told about how he accomplished his goal. And the very last verse was about him finding out what he did, and the conclusion of the story with a moral. In summation, the lyrics in Dance with the Devil were better in the sense of structure. He laid it out better, because if you didn't listen to the whole song, you would miss out on something. In the Got Beef one, he laid it out plain and simple, and didn't keep your attention, because you already know the outcome.

EDIT: In rap, language use is appreciated, someone with a better vocabulary will be praised more, but it isn't necessary. You have to remember, rap is more for an average person than it is for the scholarly like yourself. It is used to convey a message to the person with not such a great vocabulary.

EDIT EDIT: Above post will probably make it clearer on what you were looking for. Read this, and let me know if I accomplished it please?

[White hell]

Okay. I listened to it. My impressions:

1) It's fluff. Seriously. If you were going to analyze Simon & Garfunkel's work for musical & lyrical greatness, you wouldn't start with "Feelin' Groovy". If you were going to discuss the musical talents of Lennon & McCartney, you wouldn't start with "I Want To Hold Your Hand".

That's how leaders of the new school did their songs, light hearted theme's which are "Fun". what you call fluff I call fun, and also these guy's are teenagers at the time, their talking about basic things people their age went through. It's not to serious nor is it over many people's head. they stuck to the theme and had fun with it.


These guys might be the best songwriters in American history, but nobody'd ever know it from this song. It's fluff.

2) What the hell was up with the drunken piano playing the first and third times through the chorus? Care to explain the artistic meric of that particular technique to me? They let a cat run across the ol' ivories? What?!

I'm not expecting "Midnight Sonata", you probably are. And the piano isn't the only musical instrument in the beat nor was it the focus, it mostly comes in at the chorus.



Yes, I know those chords aren't entirely random. But I don't see what the clash added to the piece.

3) It had a more complex rhyming scheme than Dancing With The Devil, and the language, though forced, feels less so. I don't really see anything else there.

I disagree, the language was very smooth, It wasn't force infact there were times it appeared as if they were conversating rather than rapping. that's very relaxed, and they rarely paused unlike V-boys. they were verbally continues, quick, and relaxed.



So perhaps you could tell me what the heck I'm supposed to be seeing? All I got out of it was ... fluff that bent the language to a rough cadence, interrupted by a drunk on a keyboard.

This is better than the other piece... how?

-They stuck to their topic, Each rapper told their "Sobb Story".
-The chorus had "Purpose", when one finished their story they sing the chorus, which is actually the moral of the story, that is very clever.
-The theme was simple and CLEAR I can't tell you how much I stress this. V-boys was ambiguous, what were they talking about?!
-I love the way they put their lyricsthe theme is not serious, and the tone was fun.
-The video gave the song more purpose, What's V-boys video about?

[The Million Dollar Prons]

Desslock dissed "I wanna hold your hand," and I infomred him that it was one of the better Beatles works, almost as philosophical as "Rocky Racoon" or "Why don't we do it in the road."

[White hell]

3) a bit of fluff - The language feels slightly more natural, but it's about nothing.

Nobody can tell me anything beyond that?

Desslock, did you get the main idea of "Sobb Story"? Because if you didn't then it explains why you don't get it.

[The Million Dollar Prons]

Oh AN, can we have a thread about music that doesn't disolve into a huge debate\fight about how rap "sucks" because "it's all about people shooting eachother?"


My name is Prons, and I enjoy listensing to Common.

[Fobb]

Oh AN, can we have a thread about music that doesn't disolve into a huge debate\fight about how rap "sucks" because "it's all about people shooting eachother?"


My name is Prons, and I enjoy listensing to Common.
Am I the only one realizing that Dess isn't trying to say rap sucks, but is asking how good rap and bad rap are categorized? I think this should be dropped, it's become useless.

My name is PublikEnemy and I enjoy listening to Last Emperor.

[Gannon]

Delivery's important? Fine. How can you tell effective delivery from noneffective delivery, and can you cite me an example where one piece has good delivery, but the other one doesn't?

Simple. Distinctive sound. However, I couldn't give you an example of such without showing you what I LIKE, since something like this isn't for one person to decide.

Say we have two singers: both belonging to the same genre (whatever that may be) and both sing well enough to merit being at the professional level. Now even though they fall under the same guidelines synonyms with that genre, they're both still going to bring traits to the table that are unique only to them, because they are two different people. So even though we can argue how one singers ability under the guidelines of that genre is technically greater than the other, how you came to prefer the unique traits of one over the other is not for me to decide.

Delivery is one of those things that falls under the "unique traits" category, it just comes with the artist. So there's is just no way for me to explain it to you without falling under the guise of "This is what sounds good to ME so it's better than the others".

Hope that made sense somewhat, I've been really lathargic lately and drawn out explanations just aren't my bag right now.

You have to remember, rap is more for an average person than it is for the scholarly like yourself. It is used to convey a message to the person with not such a great vocabulary.

I disagree, but to each his own.

[White hell]

Am I the only one realizing that Dess isn't trying to say rap sucks, but is asking how good rap and bad rap are categorized? I think this should be dropped, it's become useless.

My name is PublikEnemy and I enjoy listening to Last Emperor.

No, your not the only, I read his post.

[Fobb]

Simple. Distinctive sound. However, I couldn't give you an example of such without showing you what I LIKE, since something like this isn't for one person to decide.

Say we have two singers: both belonging to the same genre (whatever that may be) and both sing well enough to merit being at the professional level. Now even though they fall under the same guidelines synonyms with that genre, they're both still going to bring traits to the table that are unique only to them, because they are two different people. So even though we can argue how one singers ability under the guidelines of that genre is technically greater than the other, how you came to prefer the unique traits of one over the other is not for me to decide.

Delivery is one of those things that falls under the "unique traits" category, and there is just no way for me to explain it to you without falling under the guise of "This is what sounds good to ME".

Hope that made sense somewhat, I've been really lathargic lately and drawn out explanations just aren't my bag right now.



I disagree, but to each his own.
That made a whole lot of sense, but I think he got annoyed by all the bickering.

[White hell]

Delivery's important? Fine. How can you tell effective delivery from noneffective delivery, and can you cite me an example where one piece has good delivery, but the other one doesn't?

The same way a person sends a point acroos, depending on the wording, tone, and consistence. It's nothing hard, rap uses litterary elements; because it's story telling.

[Leader Desslock]

Am I the only one realizing that Dess isn't trying to say rap sucks, but is asking how good rap and bad rap are categorized?
Not categorized, but identified. And you're right, I'm not saying 'rap sucks' at all. I honestly don't expect to like it, but I'm trying to understand what other people are seeing in it, from their perspectives, when they call it 'art', 'music' or 'poetry'.

I haven't left entirely, I'm just taking another approach. I'll post later about it. It occurs to me we might not even be using a common vocabulary, so I'm trying to rectify that. Anyone who doesn't wish to participate doesn't have to.

[White hell]

I haven't left entirely, I'm just taking another approach. I'll post later about it. It occurs to me we might not even be using a common vocabulary, so I'm trying to rectify that. Anyone who doesn't wish to participate doesn't have to.

Bingo, Rap has alot of "Ebonics" weaved into it, and concepts that pertain to the sub culture. I'm not expecting you to get it. hence why I posted a simple rap like "Sobb Story". I dunno if you get the moral yet, but when you do let me know.

[Haro!]

My name is Prons, and I enjoy listensing to Common.

Prons you get points in my book. *adds points*

[Fobb]

Haro! I found I against I, and I'm working on the AMV.

[Bernard_Monsha]

Oh AN, can we have a thread about music that doesn't disolve into a huge debate\fight about how rap "sucks" because "it's all about people shooting eachother?"

No. The majority of the problem comes from the fans themselves who are overly sensative to criticism.

[White hell]

No. The majority of the problem comes from the fans themselves who are overly sensative to criticism.

I disagree, the problem comes from a misunderstanding between fans.Rap can be a really secular genre, people just don't get that.

[Bernard_Monsha]

I disagree, the problem comes from a misunderstanding between fans.Rap can be a really secular genre, people just don't get that.


No fans of any gendre can be oversensative, but it is much more prevalent in the hip hop crowd. That was true in the old music forum when flame wars broke out frequently/ I think it is because deep down the fans who try to act all gangsta know they look and act like idiots but are scared to admit it. They even cash in on the utter ridiculousness of the image in mobile phone commercials.

[White hell]

No fans of any gendre can be oversensative, but it is much more prevalent in the hip hop crowd. That was true in the old music forum when flame wars broke out frequently/ I think it is because deep down the fans who try to act all gangsta know they look and act like idiots but are scared to admit it. They even cash in on the utter ridiculousness of the image in mobile phone commercials.

LOl, those commercials are dumb. anyway, gangsta's are one aspect of rap, I won't deny that. but, they can't respresent the entire genre, there are different genre's of rap like I've been saying. gangsta rap is it's own genre, blaming rap for the action's of gangsta's is like me putting my problems with punk rock fans ( I don't have any problems with them) with smooth rock fans.

[Bernard_Monsha]

Faux Punk Rockers are why I made the Che Poster. Angry at the world because X band told them to be yet they know nothing about it. It is an entirely diffrent brand of stupid.

You also cannot seperate ghetto from rap ever, it is in the language, references and roots of the hip hop movement. I also dislike it because it wakes me up by shakeing my windows at 3 in the morning.

[White hell]

Faux Punk Rockers are why I made the Che Poster. Angry at the world because X band told them to be yet they know nothing about it. It is an entirely diffrent brand of stupid.

You also cannot seperate ghetto from rap ever, it is in the language, references and roots of the hip hop movement. I also dislike it because it wakes me up by shakeing my windows at 3 in the morning.

I'n not talking about the ghetto, I'm talking about the gangsta' culture, which is predominate in western part of america. that's where gangasta' rap originated. your beef seems to be with the so called 'gangsta's' of now a day's. what I'm trying to tell you is that the gangsta rap is it's own genre.

[Bernard_Monsha]

I'n not talking about the ghetto, I'm talking about the gangsta' culture, which is predominate in western part of america. that's where gangasta' rap originated. your beef seems to be with the so called 'gangsta's' of now a day's. what I'm trying to tell you is that the gangsta rap is it's own genre.


Ghetto=Ganster, anyone who lived in the not so nice section of town will tell you that. If you are saying East vs West is diffrent like saying Diet Coke in a can or Diet Coke in a bottle is diffrent. Diffrent packageing does not make a diffrent product

[White hell]

Ghetto=Ganster, anyone who lived in the not so nice section of town will tell you that. If you are saying East vs West is diffrent like saying Diet Coke in a can or Diet Coke in a bottle is diffrent. Diffrent packageing does not make a diffrent product

Let's see here, I lived in a ghetto let me ask myself, no. A ghetto does not = gangsta, infact gangs are everywhere. when I went to school in the suburbs there were gangs, when I went to school in the city there were gangs; Gangs didn't create rap,btw.

[Bernard_Monsha]

I am sorry were do you live again?

I grew up in the ghetto (North Houston) saw people killed had to hold my own brother at gunpoint when he to rob my grandmother. There were gangs everywere in the poor section if you went to white town the only thing you had to worry about was the cops harrassiing you because you were the wrong color. I might add other suburban schools only had gangs if they were bussed there from the ghetto.

Gangs and Ghetto have gone together since the 1790's. Poor sections of town are not crime ridden and have gangs in them or that the distictive language and culture produced by them. You are trying to tell me to look the the foireground of a picture and ignore the background.

[White hell]

I am sorry were do you live again?

I grew up in the ghetto (North Houston) saw people killed had to hold my own brother at gunpoint when he to rob my grandmother. There were gangs everywere in the poor section if you went to white town the only thing you had to worry about was the cops harrassiing you because you were the wrong color. I might add other suburban schools only had gangs if they were bussed there from the ghetto.

I grew up in jamaica,queens. same here, saw people stabbed, gang fights at the park, my friend even had a gun pulled out on him. then I moved to the suburbs. then i moved back there to finish highschool, the schools sucked, metal detectors everyday, fights, etc.


Gangs and Ghetto have gone together since the 1790's. Poor sections of town are not crime ridden and have gangs in them or that the distictive language and culture produced by them. You are trying to tell me to look the the foireground of a picture and ignore the background.



Yeah, gangs do have their own dialect, culture, and lifestyle. I'm aware of it. But, that doesn't make you correct, basically your saying becuase hip hop originated in an area of poverty it's gang related, because gangs exsist in ghetto's. Hip Hop was not created by gangs, though there is a genre of rap created by gang's, hip hop overall was not created by gangs. so, your wrong

[Leader Desslock]

Okay. This is gonna be a double-poster. In this post, I'm going to address some of the points that have been made in my absence, so that I'm caught up.. In the next post, I'm giong to explain what the concepts of beat, rhythm and rhyme mean to me, so that you can see where I'm coming from on all of this.

So... some specific responses (small stuff first):

You have to remember, rap is more for an average person than it is for the scholarly like yourself. It is used to convey a message to the person with not such a great vocabulary.
At no point have my criticisms extended to the level of grammar used in these pieces, nor to the speakers' diction. I'm attempting to analyze/critique them for their musical/poetic value, not for their display of the QUeen's English. If they were written in QE, they'd sound hilarious, actually.

I'm not expecting "Midnight Sonata", you probably are. And the piano isn't the only musical instrument in the beat nor was it the focus, it mostly comes in at the chorus.
Nope, not at all. But all music has form, and that form is used to create different effects. Chord changes, rythms and tones are not random, and they're not arbitrarily paired with lyrics. They're all supposed to blend into something that is greater than the sum of its parts.

My comment was meant to express my bewilderment at just what they were trying to accomplish with that particular musical element (cat on a piano). If you could enlighten me as to the musical form/qualities/intent I'm supposed to see and appreciate there, that'd be great. I just can't see it on my own.

I disagree, the language was very smooth, It wasn't force infact there were times it appeared as if they were conversating rather than rapping...
You're using a diffrent definition of the word 'natural' than I am. I'm making an objective evaluation of the word choice in relation to the rhyme and meter. You're using it in the informal sense of "yeah, I could see someone saying that." Read the next post, and maybe what I've said will make more sense.

I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. What I'm saying is that the standard by which I'm evaluating their work says there's not a lot of artistry there. I've outlined a few points of that standard in my next post. Your standard says different? Great! What I'm asking you to do is share the standard by which YOU objectively evaluate such pieces for their musical artisty. Because I have no idea at all what rules you're using to judge them. As I've said.

The same way a person sends a point acroos, depending on the wording, tone, and consistence. It's nothing hard, rap uses litterary elements; because it's story telling.
I've studied over a thousand years of English literature, and I would not hold up either the V-Boys rap nor SOBB Story on their literary merits. You say it's there? Great. Rather than tell me, SHOW me. What are the literary elements in those two pieces, how are they used, and why do you feel they were used effectively or not.

Dancing With The Devil can be effectively critiqued for its literary qualities, I feel. It's quite heavy-handed, but no more so than many medieval works I could name.

Bingo, Rap has alot of "Ebonics" weaved into it, and concepts that pertain to the sub culture. I'm not expecting you to get it.

HAHAHA... Sorry. I'm a linguist. The fact that you're identifying it by the word 'Ebonics' indicates that you probably don't want to go there. Please let it suffice to say that Slang is a separate linguistic concept from Dialect, and I never critiqued any of these works linguistically in any case.

what you call fluff I call fun,

So in a discussion of rap artistic and musical merits, why'd you just pick a 'fun' piece? I would expect that you'd select a piece that had some sort of artistic merit to commend, then proceed to identify both: 1) what that merit was, and 2) how to identify/judge it. Why would you pick the equivalent of a rap pop tune?

which is actually the moral of the story, that is very clever.

How is that clever? Define clever. I mean, the Beatles' "I love you, yeah yeah yeah" chorus repeats the theme of the song in between verses, but I don't call that artistically clever, do you? It's a pop song.

The video gave the song more purpose,

Isn't that another way of saying that the song didn't stand on its own musical merits very well? A good song that demonstrates musical artistry shouldn't require a visual component to deliver its message, should it? Maybe i's a great video, but I don't see how that commends the piece's musical/artistic qualities, which is the topic of discussion.

Desslock, did you get the main idea of "Sobb Story"?
For the sake of argument, assume that I didn't. What would you tell me was the main theme/idea/whatever, and what points would you identify in the piece that communicated that idea most effectively? How were those points communicated? Did the other pieces attempt to communicate their points in a similar manner? How? Which piece did it most effectively? How do you personally make that judgement for yourself?

In summation, the lyrics in Dance with the Devil were better in the sense of structure. He laid it out better, because if you didn't listen to the whole song, you would miss out on something. In the Got Beef one, he laid it out plain and simple, and didn't keep your attention, because you already know the outcome.

I'll kind of give you that one, but since the purpose of DWTD is to present a narrative, I'm not certain I can fault the V-Boys rap for a failure there. I think it's more appropriate to say "they said less". I don't know that I can classify that as a structural flaw, though.

It started by explaining his life, and what was going on inside his mind. Then the next verse was about his fall in society. He became a "snitch" and lost respect among his peers, and what he had to do to get his respect back. The next one told about how he accomplished his goal. And the very last verse was about him finding out what he did, and the conclusion of the story with a moral.

My problem with the 'moral' is that it's childishly simplistic. Or - maybe a bit Jack Thompsonesque. It doesn't really present a realistic scenario for 99.99% of the humans on the planet. When a work fails to achieve the subtlety of Aesop's Fables, ABC Afterschool Specials or even Lifetime Movies - that's a bit heavy handed.

Imagine if you were a kid. You start bullying another kid to look cool, and an old guy comes over to scold you. The old man says, "Yo, man. You don't wanna be doin' none of this tough guy ****, because if you do, you're gonna end up gang-raping and murdering your MOTHER!"

Any school kid will know that this is a ridiculous statement. It's a boogieman. How many people have ever tried to fit in so badly that they accidently gang-raped and murdered their own mothers? Seriously.

If I compare DWTD with even the Fat Albert cartoons I grew up with, I have to say those were far better stories. The writing was better, the situations were better, and they told more relevant moral lessons. They were less preachy most of the time. So... in perspective, yeah, its the more socially relevant piece of the three we're looking at, but it doesn't even come up to the level of a kid's cartoon for me, artistically speaking.

So what am I missing?


Okay. That's the feedback to date. Now on to an explanation of some of the points I'm using to evaluate these pieces technically...

[Leader Desslock]

Ooookay. Before we go further, I'm going to talk about a few concepts, to make sure we're all clear on what they mean.

Meter - In poetry or lyrics, this is the structure into which the words must fit. The clearest way to show this is an example. I mentioned Emily ****inson earlier, and because it's funny, I'll use one of hers:


Because I could not stop for death
He kindly stopped for me
The Carriage held but just Ourselves—
And Immortality.

We slowly drove—He knew no haste
And I had put away
My labor and my leisure too,
For His Civility...


I could go on, but I find her stuff tedious. This is one of her better poems, though, and it illustrates meter nicely in both poetic and lyric form.

First, the metrical structure. It's composed of 4/3 iambic pairs, continuously alternating. An iamb is a two-syllable pairing where the emphasis falls on the second syllable. Examples of words taht are naturally iambic are 'forgot', insane' and 'upon'. People say these words as forGOT, inSANE and uPON, respectively. If people pronounced them FORgot, INsane or UPon, it would sound funny, skewed and unnatural. (That 'unnatural' is going to be brought back up in a moment)

So the metrical structure of Because I Could Not Stop For Death is as follows:

.!.!.!.!
.!.!.*
.!.!.!.!
.!.!.*

Where '.' is a soft syllable, '!' is an emphasized syllable, and '*' is an emphasized rhyming syllable. Everyone follow this so far?

Now the humor comes in here. For anyone who thinks these rules only apply to poetry and not lyrics, try singing this poem to the tune of "The Yellow Rose Of Texas". It works for a surprising number of ****inson's poems, and once you hear it on one of her poems, you hear ALL of them that way for the rest of your life. :lol:

Okay. Now, not all poetry (nor songs) are metrical, but since adhering to a meter is an artificial constraint, adhering to a meter is viewed as a skill in poetry and lyric writing. Some poems have different meters, and some are more difficult to use than others. Here's a good one that's a step harder than Emilys poem above:

'Twas the night before Christmas, and all through the house
Not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse
The stockings were hung by the chimney with care
In hopes that Saint Nicholas soon would be there
The children were nestled all snug in their beds,
While visions of sugar-plums danced in their heads;

The meter there is more Seussian. It's as follows:

.!..!..!..*
.!..!..!..*
(repeat)

Notice that the meter doesn't quite match up on the first two lines - there's an extra syllable on each of them. The other lines match the meter as listed, however. That's an example of where the meter 'slipped', and it's considered a lapse of skill on the part of the poet. Read some Edgar Allen Poe and you won't find many of those lapses, which is why he's considered a better poet than most.

One final point I'd like to bring up on meter: Look at the difference between the two meters listed so far:

.!.!.!.!

.!..!..!..!

Notice that they both have four 'beats'. Does that mean they match? Not at all. Meter includes more than merely the number of beats in a line. I mean, sure, for a fourth-grader writing lyrics/poetry for the first time, simply getting the number of beats right is worthy of encouragement. For a published poet/lyricist doing this professionally for money, a higher skill level is generally required. Not only the hard beats, but the soft beats as well.

Now with music and poetry, there's nothing saying that the meter can't shake it up a bit. It doesn't have to be 'paired lines matching', nor 'alternate lines matching', nor does it have to stay the same for the entire song/poem. A poet can match lines 1,2,3,5,7,11 and 13, if 'matching prime numbers' is the chosen pattern. A lyricist can match the structure of his music. Whatever meter's chosen is fine; so long as once it is chosen it's either adhered to, or else the deviations have some additional benefit. So, for example, if in each verse of a song, there's a similar deviation from rhyme and meter, that could be used to connect a concept or image acrioss different verses, thus lending additional meaning to the verses.


In the end, sticking to structure and using the language to good effect are evidence of skill. Using little structure or deviating from structure with no purpose - that's considered evidence of lesser skills.


The other concept brought up so far has been rhyming. Again, not all poems rhyme, but the ones above do. And if a rhyming scheme has been chosen for a poem or song, then that is another constraint on the lyrics written. Adherence to the rhyming pattern is considered a skill. There are two types of rhymes: good rhymes and slant rhymes.

A 'good' rhyme occurs when the words actually contain the same phonemes and cadence. So for example, 'lore' and 'more' rhyme well, as do 'respect' and 'deflect', etc.

A slant rhyme occurs when you use a word whose phonemes don't quite match. Rhyming 'drugs' with 'slugs' or 'thugs' would be a good rhyme, but rhyming it with 'blood' would be a slant rhyme. Rhyming 'potential' with 'mental' is a slant rhyme. Rhyming 'started' with hearted' is good, but rhyming it with 'guarded' is a slant rhyme.

It's generally considered a mark of a good poet/lyricist to minimize the number of slant rhymes. The skill lies in coming up with 'good' rhymes. If done within the meter, it's even trickier. This is why some people both love and hate metrical poetry/lyrics - some like the challenge of the puzzle, others view it as a hindrance to their expression.

Again, neither is right nor wrong, but if a meter and rhyme pattern is selected, then the stricter the adherence to that scheme, the more skilled the artist is considered to be.

Okay. So now that we have meter and rhyme down, so let's talk about the related concept of sounding natural. Obviously, if you're attempting to write within metrical and rhyming constraints (of songs and poems alike), you can't just say anything. There are some words you just can't use. The word I might want to use is 'blade', but if I'm trying to rhyme with the word 'life', then a better choice would be 'knife'. If I want to rhyme with 'stayed' then 'blade' might be a good choice. So maybe I have to go back and change the word 'life' to 'stayed' instead.

These are all choices, and what governs many of these choices is how 'natural' the language sounds depending on which choice is used. What are some of the things that make a lyric sound unnatural?

- Mispronouncing a word to make it sound better in the meter. "Bear" rhymes with "chair" more than it does with "ne'er" in modern parlance. "Never" rhymes better with "clever".

- Selecting a word that rhymes perfectly but either doesn't sound like a word anyone wold use in the context. For example, calling a blade "an edge" to make it rhyme with 'hedge' would rhyme but it'd sound weird. Nobody calls it an 'edge'. Likewise, using an archaic term like 'a whittel' would sound out of place in a song/peom about street fighting.

- Emphasizing a word in a manner inconsistent with its normal emphasis, to make it fit the meter. Earlier I said that 'respect' was a good rhyme for 'deflect'; rhyming it with 'insect' would be possible based on the phonemes, but it wouldn't sound natural since the words are pronounced reSPECT and INsect. Nobody says, "What kind of inSECT is that?"


Like every other constraint on metrical lyrics/poetry, close adherence to 'natural' language is considered a skill. Breaking natural language in order to accomodate the meter (beat) or rhyme is considered a lapse of skill, just like breaking the meter or rhyme to sound natural. They key to sounding natural is to select words whose emphasis coincides with the meter, and which require no bending, corruption or imagination to rhyme.


So... I would ask anyone to take a look at the lyrics of the three songs we have. Look at them with these concepts in mind. You will see that they are loaded with slant rhymes, they break the meter, and the speech in them is not always 'natural', as defined above. These are objective structural observations, not subjective "I don't like it" remarks. If you want examples, I can pull 'em (I used some above, in fact), but you should be able to spot them now that you know what I'm talking about.


These are the types of rules by which poetry and lyrics are evaluated in other forms of music. Do they apply to rap at all? If not, then why is rap (being spoken poetry, as we've discussed) suddenly exempt from the rules by which other forms of poetry and lyrics are judged?

Are there other rules by which rap is judged objectively? If so, what are they? I obviously don't know them, so I obviously can't apply them and see for myself what I'm supposed to be appreciating here. All I know is the rules by which OTHER forms of poetry / lyrics are judged, and by those rules I know, the three pieces listed don't have much merit.

Explain it to me. Take your time. Cite examples from the songs. Discuss the technical merits of the pieces, and contrast them with what you feel are the technical demerits of the other pieces. Assume you're talking to someone who's never heard of the genre. Prepare that person to listen to all three pieces and identify the good and bad points of each.

[Fobb]

This discussion has me burnt out...sorry if I don't reply. Besides, Gannon would have done a better job anyways.

Sorry again.

[Haro!]

Now the humor comes in here. For anyone who thinks these rules only apply to poetry and not lyrics, try singing this poem to the tune of "The Yellow Rose Of Texas". It works for a surprising number of ****inson's poems, and once you hear it on one of her poems, you hear ALL of them that way for the rest of your life. :lol:

As soon as I read the poem you used as an example, that thought crossed my head.

[White hell]

Nope, not at all. But all music has form, and that form is used to create different effects. Chord changes, rythms and tones are not random, and they're not arbitrarily paired with lyrics. They're all supposed to blend into something that is greater than the sum of its parts.

My comment was meant to express my bewilderment at just what they were trying to accomplish with that particular musical element (cat on a piano). If you could enlighten me as to the musical form/qualities/intent I'm supposed to see and appreciate there, that'd be great. I just can't see it on my own.

Like I said the piano is paired with the chorus, and the chorus is the moral of the piece. The chorus expresses a problematic view point. what other tone would define a problem better than a "Drunken Piano". I can't be 100% sure, but it's safe to assume that was their intent.


You're using a diffrent definition of the word 'natural' than I am. I'm making an objective evaluation of the word choice in relation to the rhyme and meter. You're using it in the informal sense of "yeah, I could see someone saying that." Read the next post, and maybe what I've said will make more sense.

I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. What I'm saying is that the standard by which I'm evaluating their work says there's not a lot of artistry there. I've outlined a few points of that standard in my next post. Your standard says different? Great! What I'm asking you to do is share the standard by which YOU objectively evaluate such pieces for their musical artisty. Because I have no idea at all what rules you're using to judge them. As I've said.


Desslock, the way I evaluate a piece is fairly simple. either I like it or I don't, I do not have a standard that must be met to entertain me. I liked that song because it was "Simple and Clear". The lyrics were on point, and I enjoyed the beat. When I say natural, I mean't none of the lyrics were put for the sake of a rythme, and it didn't stray from the main idea. That's a sharp contrast from V-Boys because I have no Idea what the main idea is; I was hoping you would tell me


I've studied over a thousand years of English literature, and I would not hold up either the V-Boys rap nor SOBB Story on their literary merits. You say it's there? Great. Rather than tell me, SHOW me. What are the literary elements in those two pieces, how are they used, and why do you feel they were used effectively or not.

I said RAP in general uses litterary elements, I did hear much in that particular song. I don't even know all the lyrics for that particular piece. As you said, "Dancing with the Devil" had litterary elements that could be critique, Sobb Story didn't. Also Sobb Story didn't have to use much litterary techniques. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't use littereary techniqes to describe a situation that is so simple. ^_^

This is why I like Sobb story, it's simple. I've been advocating this for a long time.




HAHAHA... Sorry. I'm a linguist. The fact that you're identifying it by the word 'Ebonics' indicates that you probably don't want to go there. Please let it suffice to say that Slang is a separate linguistic concept from Dialect, and I never critiqued any of these works linguistically in any case.

Sobb story didn't say anything that a novice at rap would not get, honestly.



So in a discussion of rap artistic and musical merits, why'd you just pick a 'fun' piece? I would expect that you'd select a piece that had some sort of artistic merit to commend, then proceed to identify both: 1) what that merit was, and 2) how to identify/judge it. Why would you pick the equivalent of a rap pop tune?

Rap is Rap, that's how most Rap songs sounded in those day's you must be aware of that. I choose the song because it was simple and it did not really sway from the basics of rap. It's a very easy song to understand, and that's it's merit. Honestly a song doesn't have to be over a layman's head to be good.



How is that clever? Define clever. I mean, the Beatles' "I love you, yeah yeah yeah" chorus repeats the theme of the song in between verses, but I don't call that artistically clever, do you? It's a pop song.


Well, I don't know all the lyrics of that song. the reason I called it clever certian chorus in Rap tend to go waaay off topic. I found it clever that the moral of the story was the chorus.



Isn't that another way of saying that the song didn't stand on its own musical merits very well? A good song that demonstrates musical artistry shouldn't require a visual component to deliver its message, should it? Maybe i's a great video, but I don't see how that commends the piece's musical/artistic qualities, which is the topic of discussion.


I never said the song wasn't better before, I said the video made it even better because it expressed the point even more clearly. again, I comparing this to V-Boys. Can you tell me what purpose of the V-Boys video was besides making a visula interpertation of their song.



For the sake of argument, assume that I didn't. What would you tell me was the main theme/idea/whatever, and what points would you identify in the piece that communicated that idea most effectively? How were those points communicated? Did the other pieces attempt to communicate their points in a similar manner? How? Which piece did it most effectively? How do you personally make that judgement for yourself?


It's simple, Like I said the chorus expresses it, the story revolved around each member of the "Leaders of the New School" telling their Sobb Story. All their Sobb Stories are essentially the same, They did not have a car and it sucked to walk, alos people they new were pretty stingy when it came to giving them a ride.- that's the sobb story. Their story changes when they gain a vechile of their own, and now the table's are turned. The moral is, as the chorus says "Just remeber that I konw you and you know me" basically what goes around comes around, that's roughly what it is.

[White hell]

Here are the lyrics for sobb story, I corrected some erros and will highlight them.

Leaders of the New School Sobb Story Lyrics
Verse 1: Busta Rhymes
remember the days when I was walking and talking
doing what I gotta do, doing what we wanna do
off into my Walk-a-thon (walked dawn) missions, why?
cos the brothers that I knew with the rise drove by
only nice in the days looking down the road
seeing beatiful girls with the car load
yeah yeah yeah they are screaming,
wish I had a little ride on my own,
but since I don't there is my sobb story
my missions will continue as I keep on stalking
stamina was dying from the constant walking
right before the moment I began to car to my man Ridle
who had a some moving on
I tought he wouldn't know that's my dying
where are the others nammy you beat and kept driven
now in my heart they do a big hole
cos my little, little, little toes
started jumping on my end soul
it was frigity burn and then I said wait, I got pride
it's time to get my own ride
I came up with the scheme and got paid
I had no other choice but go at knowledge of tray
when I got my transport, I got kind of steam G up
cos I got cherry Path Finder(pet further)
now I'm feeling good cos I'm off my feet,
man the little squalid dogs running up in the street
and they saying:
my name is Sharina, my name is Busta
my name is Tonia, my name is Busta
my name is Dianna, my is Busta
and what do you take me for the little Local (loco) push over
no shame in my game cos that's how I got this
and when I return the playback everybody gets Pissed (pist)
and now I am the man fielding all the glory
and when you rise down and gone, just remember that

Chorus:
I KNOW YOU AND YOU KNOW ME,
I KNOW YOU AND YOU KNOW ME,
I KNOW YOU AND YOU KNOW ME,
IT'S THE SOBB STORY, THE SOBB STORY

Repeat chorus

Verse 2: Charlie Brown
red Light(like) green Light (like) 1, 2, 3
here comes the hop along kid Charlie B.
I'm constantly moving with my walkman kicking
my bunnions are crying beaving plicking
please, please, get into the vehicle
I stop at Dave's ave.,
figure out vehicle-brother, to give me a ride
"sorry, Charlie" was a coming reply
I didn't forget about the girl in the sidekick
the rubber don't system in the swallow kid
She(C) drive by with the posse, ooh ah, ooh ah, ooh ah
hey Charlie Brown, where you go?
well I have to purchase to get
smoke from the rubber word up to my neck
girls wear goochie and their friends way fendy
wall ally a walker to get fairly
just a beep beep an ocasional way
the table's turn, now she got play
lunchtime Marty and Deon
Jonhy Guills, Diego Stroy, and Dacon
sitting and waiting for about to biggy these
I stack by the Crackerjacks just through delieve
stress it's a mess/ I decided to work
but it's hard to work when your boss is a jerk
I sweat floors and drive to get mine
my amigos with Dinco D, Milo and Busta Rhymes
wreck top kickbox galooine Brown who's the clown
remember the

chorus
repeat

now I remember Rod when he first got his sobb
didn't have a job and his car was a mob more brothers
he never knew from jack and when his car win flact
they wouldn't inject
and when his car was in the shop they wouldn't stop buy
they've say "hi" on the reply but back came Rob
to the same old game
"hee-hee yo, what's up to y'all, wanna hang?"
"yeah sure" they said on the quick fast
"by the way anybody got money for gass?"
"nah, not me"
"I don't, don't ask"
"I got it, come on"
"watch out, we gonna crash!"
roll away now Rob just walking like me
the D to the O and the middle INC
ans some say MV I say all empty
and now he just walking my sobb story

Chorus
repeat
Lyrics Directory > Leaders of the New School > Sobb Story Lyrics Plugin


Now, there were a hand ful of mistakes, If I were a teacher I would give this a 74%. people spelled "cuz", But regardless they got the point across.

Anyway, desslock, were on the same page. I dislike people who spell words incorrectly to make a rythme. but, I disagrre'd with the play one wording why would saying edge to refer to a blade for the sake of a rythme be considered bad?


These are the types of rules by which poetry and lyrics are evaluated in other forms of music. Do they apply to rap at all? If not, then why is rap (being spoken poetry, as we've discussed) suddenly exempt from the rules by which other forms of poetry and lyrics are judged?

Are there other rules by which rap is judged objectively? If so, what are they? I obviously don't know them, so I obviously can't apply them and see for myself what I'm supposed to be appreciating here. All I know is the rules by which OTHER forms of poetry / lyrics are judged, and by those rules I know, the three pieces listed don't have much merit.

Explain it to me. Take your time. Cite examples from the songs. Discuss the technical merits of the pieces, and contrast them with what you feel are the technical demerits of the other pieces. Assume you're talking to someone who's never heard of the genre. Prepare that person to listen to all three pieces and identify the good and bad points of each.



Honestly, from what I know rap is story telling that emphasis rythming. But, that contradicts it's title "Rythmn and Poetry". anyway, Desslock you should use the criteria for grading a story when it comes to analyzing rap. others might disagree, but, I think that's best.

Personally, Rap seems to take on both roles, one rap can be a story, the other a poem.. You have to be able to tell, because the artist won't always say

[Leader Desslock]

Now, there were a hand ful of mistakes, If I were a teacher I would give this a 74%. people spelled "cuz", But regardless they got the point across.
Yea, as I said, I knew there were typos, but the page I had linked was close enough and I wasn't judging the piece based on the typos. Thanks for the additional corrections, though.

...I disagrre'd with the play one wording why would saying edge to refer to a blade for the sake of a rythme be considered bad?
It would be considered 'unnatural', since nobody uses the word 'edge' to refer to a 'knife'. A knife HAS an edge, but it isn't an edge itself. It would be an odd word choice for the 'speaker' (the narrative voice in the rap, or else one of the characters in it, not necessarily the author), which would mean it would be an unnatural lyric.

If someone wrote "Verily, I have cleft him in twain" for the sake of the rhyme/meter in one of the rap songs we have listed, that would not sound as natural as "Yeah, I cut him in two." There's nothing inherently wrong with the words 'verily', 'cleft' or 'twain', but they're not words associated with the culture in these songs.

Haha - likewise, what if we substituted words like 'gosh' and 'golly' for the profanity in the V-boys' rap? Wouldn't that be hilarious? The humor would come from the inconguity of their message and look, versus those words. It would seem so unnatural it couldn't be taken seriously, even if they rhymed perfectly. That's an extreme example, but I just mean it to illustrate that there are limits to the words you can use in poetry/song lyrics.

[White hell]

Yea, as I said, I knew there were typos, but the page I had linked was close enough and I wasn't judging the piece based on the typos. Thanks for the additional corrections, though.

No problem



It would be considered 'unnatural', since nobody uses the word 'edge' to refer to a 'knife'. A knife HAS an edge, but it isn't an edge itself. It would be an odd word choice for the 'speaker' (the narrative voice in the rap, or else one of the characters in it, not necessarily the author), which would mean it would be an unnatural lyric.

If someone wrote "Verily, I have cleft him in twain" for the sake of the rhyme/meter in one of the rap songs we have listed, that would not sound as natural as "Yeah, I cut him in two." There's nothing inherently wrong with the words 'verily', 'cleft' or 'twain', but they're not words associated with the culture in these songs.

Oh, okay.

[master terrence]

better becareful what you say desslock. Never know when them V-boys pull up in their Hondas and come knockin' on yo door, yadig?


:lol:

[Leader Desslock]

Verily, I might be cleft in twain with an edge, yo? ^_^

[White hell]

V-Boys have nothing on this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQtmmgrgn3U)