Semantics of 'manga'

[seth]

Hello John,

I only discovered your long-running Q&A column a few months back, but I'd like to preface my criticisms with the standard (but earnest!) cliche of saying that I really enjoy the column. The questions tend to amuse me, and while I don't always agree with your opinions, I think they're generally reasoned responses and provide an interesting perspective. No less so for today's column "Should There Be Christian Manga?" however I have some criticism of your semantic argument about the term "manga," that I wanted to bring up.

In Japanese, "Manga" is just the word for comic books. If you went to Japan, handed a copy of Spiderman to a Japanese person there and asked them what it was, they'd say "manga." Since we don't call all comic books in the U.S. "manga," and broad use of the term in the U.S. is relatively new, asserting a rigid definition is a difficult proposition.

The accepted use of "manga" in the U.S. is certainly not the one you claim. However much people might dislike it, U.S. comic book and manga publishers are publishing works not of Japanese origin under this term. So it's not as if the inquiring reader who sent the question has made some sort of minor factual error. There is a large faction in the U.S. who are using this term to describe something other than what you specify. Words and phrases are defined by the way people use them.

That said, limiting the definition of "manga," in the way you suggest undersells its usefulness as a term. While I will not go so far as to say there is any kind of definitive manga style, there are techniques and style elements that are far more common in manga than in Western comic books. Over the decades there has been a lot of conceptual exchange between Western comic book creators and Japanese mangaka, yet it is still easy to distinguish most examples as having their stylistic roots in one form or the other.

I think using "manga," to refer to a style, in addition to being the more commonly accepted use of the term in the U.S. today, is also far more descriptively beneficial. Does a comic book written by a Japanese person who is a U.S. citizen in the manga style a comic book? If Neil Gaiman visits Japan and writes a comic book while he's there is it manga? What if he sold it through Japanese distributers? "From Japan," isn't really a very descriptive term for comic books. It doesn't tell me anything useful. However, as a creative style, it certainly does.

One quick note: not being familiar with manwha, I cannot say whether the same is true of manwha.

Thanks,
Seth Johnson

[Ken-Ohki]

I disagree. You need to have something that seperates material made in Japan for Japanese consumption and something made in America for American consumption. Otherwise any piece of crap can be considered Anime or Manga just because someone draws characters with big eyes.

[Soluzar]

I agree entirely with Ken-Ohki. It's my belief that the people who really champion the notion of manga as a style are often those who wish to sell it as a style, and as such I distrust their motives. Comic books drawn in the manga style in America have tended to me, for the most part, unimaginative and derivative works, cynically cranked out in order to greedily grasp a chunk of the ever-growing manga market. There are some notable exceptions, but on the whole, I find that manga comes from Japan, whether it is a style or not. Americans have their own style, and it works for them. When they try to emulate the Japanese style, it's not exactly what I'd call effective.

Manga can be called a style if you like, but it is a narrative style, not just an art style, and the Americans who seek to emulate it will often copy it on the most superficial level.

[Noi]

As the author of the question that appered on today's "Dear John" article, I was surprised that John went into the sematics of manga, something that I did not intend would happen. I was asking him whether there would be problems if Evangelical Christians begin to produce manga.

I am pleased that he answered my question, and learned about the "Serenity" series he mentioned. The Evangelical Christian market is large (and growing each year), and the manga industry should take notice.

[seth]

Ken-Ohki,

You are implying that there is something you "like" about manga. It seems unlikely that what you "like" is that it is from Japan, but is rather a style (I should have been more clear in indicating both an art and narrative style, however in comic books narration and art are intricately tied together; 'style' is a more unified kind of thing) that you associate with graphic novels "from Japan."

[HitokiriShadow]

I disagree. You need to have something that seperates material made in Japan for Japanese consumption and something made in America for American consumption. Otherwise any piece of crap can be considered Anime or Manga just because someone draws characters with big eyes.

Basically how I feel on the subject.

Let's not forget that there are also other terms for comics from Korea (Manwha) and China (manhua). They all mean "comics" but the different words distinuish their origin.

[seth]

I agree entirely with Ken-Ohki. It's my belief that the people who really champion the notion of manga as a style are often those who wish to sell it as a style, and as such I distrust their motives. Comic books drawn in the manga style in America have tended to me, for the most part, unimaginative and derivative works, cynically cranked out in order to greedily grasp a chunk of the ever-growing manga market. There are some notable exceptions, but on the whole, I find that manga comes from Japan, whether it is a style or not. Americans have their own style, and it works for them. When they try to emulate the Japanese style, it's not exactly what I'd call effective.

I hear this a lot, but I think a major error here is that this viewpoint assumes that so-called "OEL Manga" as sold my comic book and manga companies in the U.S. are the only kind of "manga," being made outside of Japan. That's certainly not true. Staying in the U.S. for the moment, maybe you should look at the American fan-base. Drawing manga-style art is a rather popular past-time among that fan-base, and I am seeing more and more cases where fans in the U.S. are going beyond sketches and putting together actual books. I don't think it's very likely that these fans are somehow trying to capitalize on a growing manga industry in the U.S. to get rich. If you ask them what they're making though, they aren't going to tell you "comic books" or "graphic novels."

edited for clarity

[Leader Desslock]

My feeling is that if the art is good and it's well written, I really don't care who made it, where it's from or what it's called. Comic books, graphic novels, manga - it's all the same to me. The only time I really use the word 'manga' is when I want to distinguish between the animated version of a series, versus the print version of a series (i.e.: the Ranma 1/2 anime or manga).

The only place I ever use the word 'manga' is here on this board. I've never used the word manga in a real life conversation, to my knowledge. In real life, I also tend to use the terms 'Japanese animation' or 'cartoons', rather than 'anime'.

Are US comic producers using the word manga in their advertising to draw in readers from the Japanese comic crowd? Sure. They'd be foolish not to do so. But then - it's just advertising. I really don't listen to anything I hear in an ad, so it doesn't matter to me what language they use. They could sell their comics under the name of "Marvel's Instant Guaranteed Cancer Cure" and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to me.

[Dan]

The only time I really use the word 'manga' is when I want to distinguish between the animated version of a series, versus the print version of a series (i.e.: the Ranma 1/2 anime or manga).

The only place I ever use the word 'manga' is here on this board. I've never used the word manga in a real life conversation, to my knowledge. In real life, I also tend to use the terms 'Japanese animation' or 'cartoons', rather than 'anime'.


This is exactly how I look at it and how I think it should be used. If I'm speaking english, I say "comic" (and not "graphic novel", because come on, thats just a ploy to cloak one's insecurity), and if I'm speaking Japanese I say "manga". After having been in Japan and discussing Kochalka's "manga" alongside the Naruto "manga", drawing a line back in america just sounds silly and ignorant. The only time I let "manga" slip is this same example with Leader Desslock, when I distinguish between a series' animation or comic.

The Evangelical Christian market is large (and growing each year), and the manga industry should take notice.

Look, no offense, but the Evangelical Christian community is not going to make any major impact on the Japanese comic industry very soon, if ever. The Japanese have a international closemindedness that rivals even america, added to the fact the the majority religion in Japan is "no religion", you've really got your work cut out for you. In fact, I cant imagine any religion or sect making even a blip on the american comic industry radar.

[Suiko Eiji]

Look, no offense, but the Evangelical Christian community is not going to make any major impact on the Japanese comic industry very soon, if ever. The Japanese have a international closemindedness that rivals even america, added to the fact the the majority religion in Japan is "no religion", you've really got your work cut out for you. In fact, I cant imagine any religion or sect making even a blip on the american comic industry radar.

Right on all points (even the semantics issue), but I have the feeling Noi might have been inferring about the U.S. Manga Industry taking notice, should a book series like Serenity happen to sell incredibly well.

[seth]

Here's a quick analogy that might better highlight my point.

Italian food.

Italian food originally and ostensibly refers to food "from" Italy. Food that became popular there and was made by Italians for Italians. However, cultural exchange has made Italian food popular in, among other places, the United States. You can eat Italian Food in the United States. However, you don't have to import it, and it doesn't necessarily have to be made by Italians to be Italian food. There is a *distinct* issue of authenticity. As with most kinds of "ethnic" food served in the United States, there are some Americanized versions available that are only superficially similar to the original. However, the authenticity is based on the way the food is actually made, not who is making it.

The analogy is apt. Even if "manga" is just a synonym in English for "Japanese comics," there is no reason that "authentic Japanese comics," have to be made in Japan or by the Japanese, any more than "authentic Italian food," must be made by Italians or in Italy.

[Mikadzuki Tatsu]

The whole reason I started using the term "manga" was because I felt (and still feel) that Japanese comics were so different from American comics - art style, narrative style, even layout and production (one manga-ka as opposed to an entire staff of cartoonists) - that it was perfectly all right not to think of them as just "comics" the way most Americans think of comics.

In my mind, manga means "Japanese comics," manwha means "Korean comics," manhua means "Chinese comics," and comics means "American/European comics." Each has its own unique elements that make it different from the others. If I see a manga-style American comic that I don't feel embodies the elements I associate with manga, then even if the label on the book says "manga," I'm just going to call it what it is - a manga-style comic.

[Leader Desslock]

...Italian food.

The analogy is apt.
The analogy doesn't work for me, but if it works for you, great.

Lemme ask this: Let's say that I snap my fingers, and suddenly the word manga is used universally to refer to any comic, no matter where made or by whom, so long as it is drawn in the style popularized by Japanese comic artists. Snap, everybody agrees on that definition.

What does it change?

Let's say I snap my other finger and suddenly there is 100% agreement across the globe that 'manga' is only used to refer to Japanese comics produced by Japanese artists and first published on the island of Japan. Snap, everyone agrees on THAT definition.

What does it change?

The reason I ask is that I can't see what would change either way, which means the difference isn't particularly meaningful - and that's how I view it. I'm wondering whether the people who think the terminology matters are seeing it differently, is all.

[Soluzar]

The reason I ask is that I can't see what would change either way, which means the difference isn't particularly meaningful - and that's how I view it. I'm wondering whether the people who think the terminology matters are seeing it differently, is all.
Game and Set, Leader Desslock. Second Set. New balls, please.

The only thing that matters to me is what I call it. I've been seeing through the marketing garbage of companies for a long while, and plan to continue to do so. Whatever they call it doesn't change anything for me.

[Ken-Ohki]

In particular I don't read American comics. How I define manga is how I define anime and I'm rather biased toward how the term is misused in the American market. So I appologize if anyone feels my definition isn't as valid because I don't read American comics and have no right to compare.

For a company to suggest that their works are "anime" is intentionally misleading and puts new fans in danger of assuming that some work or another produced in America for American fans is the same as something produced in Japan for Japanese fans.

Part of the difficulty and what seperates anime and manga in Japan from comics and cartoons in America is censorship and maturity of the audience. Anyone that believes material appropriate for Japanese viewership is the same as material appropriate for American viewership needs to watch more unedited anime. Even a show designed and broadcast for a younger audience like Dragonball Z and Pokemon are amazingly different from what can be shown in the US. The Japanese also assume a greater maturity level for their viewers, even children. Shows in Japan do not need to end on a happy note each episode for instance. Just watch Tiny Snowfairy Sugar, a show intended for children ages 5-10. Some issues remain unresolved at the end of an episode. That is primarily what seperates anime from American cartoons and cannot be duplicated regardless of how much "Style" is copied.

To pretend that material created by Americans for Americans is the same as anime and manga is intentionally misleading as I said. It puts new fans in danger of believing that some of the material they watch is true anime and will confuse them when they begin searching for anime as they grow older.

You mention Italian food and I'd like to use it too. A person can easily claim to create Italian style food but I don't believe any honest Sicilian or Italian would ever claim a Dominos Pizza as Italian food.

[Dan]

The whole reason I started using the term "manga" was because I felt (and still feel) that Japanese comics were so different from American comics - art style, narrative style, even layout and production (one manga-ka as opposed to an entire staff of cartoonists) - that it was perfectly all right not to think of them as just "comics" the way most Americans think of comics.

In my mind, manga means "Japanese comics," manwha means "Korean comics," manhua means "Chinese comics," and comics means "American/European comics." Each has its own unique elements that make it different from the others. If I see a manga-style American comic that I don't feel embodies the elements I associate with manga, then even if the label on the book says "manga," I'm just going to call it what it is - a manga-style comic.

Ok, heres the problem with how you're looking at it: comics made in japan by japanese people for a japanese audience are not a GENRE. You are claiming that all japanese comics have some attribute in common (which is not an uncommon voiced opinion) but I imagine this is because you were introduced to Japanese comics as from Japan, right? and hence, different. So the distinction you've been taught to make in a suerficial international boundry. In Japan, there is no "manga style" that comprises both Naruto and Fruits Basket, these are easily divisible by their different themes, styles and writing. Certainly there will be vast generalities that will help to define Japanese storytelling methods, but an overall country-wide "unique element" there is not.

And if there were its probably that Japanese comics are geared toward consumerism.

[seth]

Ok, heres the problem with how you're looking at it: comics made in japan by japanese people for a japanese audience are not a GENRE. You are claiming that all japanese comics have some attribute in common (which is not an uncommon voiced opinion) but I imagine this is because you were introduced to Japanese comics as from Japan, right? and hence, different. So the distinction you've been taught to make in a suerficial international boundry. In Japan, there is no "manga style" that comprises both Naruto and Fruits Basket, these are easily divisible by their different themes, styles and writing. Certainly there will be vast generalities that will help to define Japanese storytelling methods, but an overall country-wide "unique element" there is not.

And if there were its probably that Japanese comics are geared toward consumerism.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I specifically avoided that over-generalization in my first post. There doesn't have to be a unified "genre" true for ALL of Japanese comics for there to be common identifying elements, which there are.

[seth]

You mention Italian food and I'd like to use it too. A person can easily claim to create Italian style food but I don't believe any honest Sicilian or Italian would ever claim a Dominos Pizza as Italian food.

I didn't claim there weren't poor imitations; that's part of the analogy.

[Joeshie]

I am pleased that he answered my question, and learned about the "Serenity" series he mentioned. The Evangelical Christian market is large (and growing each year), and the manga industry should take notice.

You should pick up Serenity sometime. It's hilariously awful.

[Dan]

Actually, I'm pretty sure I specifically avoided that over-generalization in my first post. There doesn't have to be a unified "genre" true for ALL of Japanese comics for there to be common identifying elements, which there are.

First, I wasnt quoting you. Second, I would love to hear what you feel are the "common identifying elements" in Japanese comics. I expect all of them to be superficial, because there really is now way they can be anything but. Take your own analogy - spaghetti and meatballs do not italian cuisine make.

[seth]

The only thing that matters to me is what I call it. I've been seeing through the marketing garbage of companies for a long while, and plan to continue to do so. Whatever they call it doesn't change anything for me.

Yeah, I don't particularly care what particular language people use in their daily conversation. If you say "comic book," or "graphic novel," I don't care. I grudgingly use the latter most of the time, full-well knowing it's a euphamism, because it feels weird to me to call something non comical a "comic," but that is just my idiosynchrasy. I don't care what language other people use.

I do care when a widely read editorial makes a statement about semantics, specifically when those semantics are tied to an ongoing (I'm aware how old this argument is) debate on art authenticity. And I care when people attempt to attack the authenticity of a work based on its origin rather than its content. I don't care if somebody prefers to use the term "manga-style comic" or "manga-influenced comic." I care when somebody globally denies the right of creators to call their works "manga," if they are not Japanese and/or from Japan. Pulling the food in, If you are a chef, and you make a bad-*** authentic Jamaican Jerk chicken, but you are a Chinese Jew from Poland, you'd probably be pretty ticked if critics said calling it "Jamaican Jerk" was misleading since you're not from Jamaica. This is the exact same thing.

[seth]

First, I wasnt quoting you. Second, I would love to hear what you feel are the "common identifying elements" in Japanese comics. I expect all of them to be superficial, because there really is now way they can be anything but. Take your own analogy - spaghetti and meatballs do not italian cuisine make.

No, of course you weren't quoting me. But you claimed that I'd said something I hadn't, which I felt compelled to address. I've seen infinity debate threads fly off into nowhere because of all the straw-men thrown around.

Actually, the study of what distinguishes "manga" as a style is a rather extensive one. Let me see what examples I can find. Here is an article (http://bentophysics.wordpress.com/2006/08/04/thinking-out-loud-even-a-gaijin-can-draw-manga/) from Bento Physics about this very subject (let me go ahead and say I don't necessarily agree with everything in that article, I'm just pointing to it because it has at least one example of the kind of thing you're asking for). One good example they use is the technique of "temporal decompression" i.e. altering the tempo of the story briefly to add dramatic impact to a moment, for instance by spreading out a short phrase over several panels (this is the example they use, and it's better detailed there). That's a narrative technique of sorts. There's an art style as well, particularly for character designs (not just "big eyes small mouth"), but I really lack the vocabulary to describe it myself. There is also a common tendency to publish in black and white with a fairly consistent panel layout. Of the things I'm mentioning, the art style is probably the most easy one to find a lot of counterexamples of, while the basic printing format is ridiculously common. But they don't have to be universally shared to count. These are just a few things that are commonly associated with "manga" as a style.

[crow-kun]

@ Seth

So the way you see it a American movie maker can make a authentic Chinese movie as long as it is done in the same style even if the two cultures and ideals are completely different?

[Dan]

No, of course you weren't quoting me. But you claimed that I'd said something I hadn't, which I felt compelled to address. I've seen infinity debate threads fly off into nowhere because of all the straw-men thrown around.

I did? I was only referring to the post by Mikadzuki Tatsu, which is why I quoted Mikadzuki Tatsu, and not you. I didnt claim anything about anyone except Mikadzuki Tatsu.

Actually, the study of what distinguishes "manga" as a style is a rather extensive one. Let me see what examples I can find. Here is an article (http://bentophysics.wordpress.com/2006/08/04/thinking-out-loud-even-a-gaijin-can-draw-manga/) from Bento Physics about this very subject (let me go ahead and say I don't necessarily agree with everything in that article, I'm just pointing to it because it has at least one example of the kind of thing you're asking for). One good example they use is the technique of "temporal decompression" i.e. altering the tempo of the story briefly to add dramatic impact to a moment, for instance by spreading out a short phrase over several panels (this is the example they use, and it's better detailed there). That's a narrative technique of sorts. There's an art style as well, particularly for character designs (not just "big eyes small mouth"), but I really lack the vocabulary to describe it myself. There is also a common tendency to publish in black and white with a fairly consistent panel layout. Of the things I'm mentioning, the art style is probably the most easy one to find a lot of counterexamples of, while the basic printing format is ridiculously common. But they don't have to be universally shared to count. These are just a few things that are commonly associated with "manga" as a style.

You just gave me more fuel for the fire. Like I said before, its impossible to come up with a generalization for a medium that isnt superficial. "Temporal decompression" is no different from big eyes, its just a way to establish an indentification for Japanese comics in an attempt to divide them from other comics. Furthermore, none of these can be put through the scientific method - for each example of a superficial generalization, there are exceptions to the rule which are still recognized as part of the overall identification - for example a comic with small eyes could still be identified as "manga".

Your other examples are basically technicalities. Being in black and white could help identify the country of origin since its such a trend in Japan (which is by the way probably due to the sheer enormity of manga produced and the speed in which they are in demand), but is in no way is definitive.

You say that These are just a few things that are commonly associated with "manga" as a style., but that is a terribly misguided and self centered approach, considering the number of Japanese who read and DONT associate a "manga style" over the foreign niche market that we're a part of.

Lets go back to your analogy. Identifying italian food is a general division under "food", but the heart of the real distinction is within this superficial distinction, like when italians vary their dishes between regions, or an area with natural crops that doesnt have to import.

I could go on more, but I have to sleep now, talk to you later.

[Leader Desslock]

You should pick up Serenity sometime. It's hilariously awful.
Agreed. I had to wipe away tears, I was laughing so hard.

Being in black and white could help identify the country of origin since its such a trend in Japan (which is by the way probably due to the sheer enormity of manga produced and the speed in which they are in demand), but is in no way is definitive.
I'd say this is a by product of (as you say) the sheer amount of manga published, but also the way the Japanese publishing industry is set up. It'd be more cost prohibitive for the Japanese to add color to a comic than it would be for a comparable American firm.

Another point on the same idea - if the black/white printing characteristic is considered part of the 'manga style', then surely the type of paper and printing process used would also be considered a part of that style, right? I don't know anyone who identifies 'manga' that way, but I bring it up because it's as valid a technical point and I have to ask the question "where would you stop?" At what point does a characteristic of the Japanese comic industry become part of the 'manga style', versus a regional quirk of the printing & publishing infrastructure?

[seth]

I did? I was only referring to the post by Mikadzuki Tatsu, which is why I quoted Mikadzuki Tatsu, and not you. I didnt claim anything about anyone except Mikadzuki Tatsu.


Agh! Sorry sorry sorry sorry. My total failure to read there. That explains why I was so confused by your first response.


You just gave me more fuel for the fire. Like I said before, its impossible to come up with a generalization for a medium that isnt superficial. "Temporal decompression" is no different from big eyes, its just a way to establish an indentification for Japanese comics in an attempt to divide them from other comics. Furthermore, none of these can be put through the scientific method - for each example of a superficial generalization, there are exceptions to the rule which are still recognized as part of the overall identification - for example a comic with small eyes could still be identified as "manga".

Your other examples are basically technicalities. Being in black and white could help identify the country of origin since its such a trend in Japan (which is by the way probably due to the sheer enormity of manga produced and the speed in which they are in demand), but is in no way is definitive.

You say that These are just a few things that are commonly associated with "manga" as a style., but that is a terribly misguided and self centered approach, considering the number of Japanese who read and DONT associate a "manga style" over the foreign niche market that we're a part of.

Lets go back to your analogy. Identifying italian food is a general division under "food", but the heart of the real distinction is within this superficial distinction, like when italians vary their dishes between regions, or an area with natural crops that doesnt have to import.

I could go on more, but I have to sleep now, talk to you later.

Likewise I will try to address this response after more sleep.

[Kickerman28]

The Japanese would just as readily use "comikku," or comic, to describe their own manga, regardless of the words Western origin.

The true definition of the word and its usage will be decided by the general populace, not through individuals who groundlessly appoint themselves arbiters of its correct application.

[Leader Desslock]

The true definition of the word and its usage will be decided by the general populace, not through individuals who groundlessly appoint themselves arbiters of its correct application.
The weight of history supports this statement.

[John]

The following question was sent to me by personal e-mail today.

Do you believe that a comic written by a foreigner, published in Japan and targeted to a Japanese audience, perhaps even under a Japanese pseudonym would in fact not be manga? Is manga not but the Japanese term for comic? I know most Japanese don't have a problem calling a DC or Marvel comic; manga or Powerpuff Girls; anime.

I don't insist that anyone agree with my strict definition of "manga," although it is the English language dictionary definition. (According to Mirriam Webster, manga is "a Japanese comic book or graphic novel.") In the same way that scholars distinguish a difference between Rennaisance and Baroque art styles, I think it's appropriate to distinguish a difference between manga, manhwa, and other similar but different styles, schools, or ethnicities of art. A non-Japanese artist will not have the years of life-experience of Japanese society and culture that influence a native Japanese artist, leading to inevitable subtle differences.

Please also keep in mind that while Japanese citizens may sometimes use the word "manga" to refer to all comic art, Japanese citizens also use the word "neko" to describe a cat. The fact that a word is used one way in Japan does not mean that the word has the exact same meaning and use in another country. The fact that mainstream Japanese citizens may thoughtlessly refer to Tom & Jerry as "anime" does not mean that they've considerately and carefully chosen to use that terminology because it's the most accurate and precise technical term available. Japanese people calling all animation "anime" can be compared to referring to someone's "house," if the person actually lives in a condominium or apartment. The intention and meaning may be the same, but the precise linguistics used may not be accurate.

Please note that I don't define "manga" as "comics from Japan." I define "manga" as "comics of Japanese origin," meaning that manga is a product of native Japanese culture, thought, and creativity. Regardless of how similar it may look, a non-Japanese artist cannot physically have the personality and life experience of a Japanese artist.

[Noi]

John, it is interesting in the discussion on the defintion of "manga" of how like many terms used in anime/manga fandom differ among different people. Defining what is "manga" is the same like defining "anime" or "moe." There does not seem to be a consensus on how to define it.

[John]

I believe that the definition and proper use of terms like "manga" are contentiously debated because they're borrowed foreign words, and because they carry a lot of implied weight. I try to define "manga" as a strictly literary term within the English language, but the word is often not cleanly separated from its original use by Japanese speakers in Japan. And there are many professional publishers that do not want a clear distinction of what is and is not "manga" for the sake of commercial benefit, along with many non-Japanese fans who don't want to accept a strict distinction of "manga" because it excludes them from being "manga artists" or otherwise being an integral part of the manga industry instead of being an external consumer.

[Dan]

I don't insist that anyone agree with my strict definition of "manga," although it is the English language dictionary definition. (According to Mirriam Webster, manga is "a Japanese comic book or graphic novel.") In the same way that scholars distinguish a difference between Rennaisance and Baroque art styles, I think it's appropriate to distinguish a difference between manga, manhwa, and other similar but different styles, schools, or ethnicities of art. A non-Japanese artist will not have the years of life-experience of Japanese society and culture that influence a native Japanese artist, leading to inevitable subtle differences.

Thats kind of pathetic that Mirriam-Webster's definition doesnt include the (disputed) origin of the word - Hokusai's "manga". Im curious to know the process in which they determine what is a new word and what it's meaning will be.

But you bring up a great point. Look where you drew the line for art styles - Rennaissance and Baroque, not France or Italy. Certainly there is value to determining a country of origin, and that can assuredly lead to a national analysis - what makes X country's art unique - but it does not stand as the defining characteristic. Like I said before, I feel it is silly, ignorant and self centered to draw the line at "of Japanese origin" or not, which groups together all of the vastly different image and literary stlyes into one group, claiming that Salaryman Kintaro and Sailor Moon are one and the same "genre".

Like I said before, these comics of Japanese origin will certainly have similarities as a result of centuries of a developing storytelling tradition and whatever current popular styles are in action, but almost all of the criteria that I have seen brought up are superficial. Which is why by definition (if you were to create one) "manga" could be created by anyone. Its like a lose-lose situation.


Please note that I don't define "manga" as "comics from Japan." I define "manga" as "comics of Japanese origin," meaning that manga is a product of native Japanese culture, thought, and creativity. Regardless of how similar it may look, a non-Japanese artist cannot physically have the personality and life experience of a Japanese artist.

No offense but this is where the ignorant self-centeredness comes into play. In America we use the word sushi to define a specific dish called "sushi" (disregarding the misuse for sashimi, etc.). We use it because it is the name of a specific thing from a foreign country. But Americans can accurately make "sushi" and appropriately call it "sushi". Manga isnt used the same way, because Manga isnt a specific thing, its a broad term for a general form of art. The way we use manga, and the way you feel it is most appropriately used would be on par with if we called all fish that originated from Japan sakana, or all cars kuruma.

Of course the word has precceded itself and worked into American culture as a descriptive word, and its my stance that not only is this ludicrous, but any attempt to establish a real definition is superficial and erroneous.


Okay, I think I was a bit redundant in that post, but while writing I reconsidered your specific definition "of Japanese origin", I feel that that can be helpful in discussion as long as it doesnt press any further in implication (ie its of Japanese origin, so obviously there are big eyes, its in black and white, etc.). But the catch is that if it doesnt imply anything further, its virtually useless. So I think you, John, have more of the right idea, but it is a quick decline from that standpoint for people who wish to seperate "manga". Even then, why not just call them all "comics"?


edit:
I believe that the definition and proper use of terms like "manga" are contentiously debated because they're borrowed foreign words, and because they carry a lot of implied weight. I try to define "manga" as a strictly literary term within the English language, but the word is often not cleanly separated from its original use by Japanese speakers in Japan. And there are many professional publishers that do not want a clear distinction of what is and is not "manga" for the sake of commercial benefit, along with many non-Japanese fans who don't want to accept a strict distinction of "manga" because it excludes them from being "manga artists" or otherwise being an integral part of the manga industry instead of being an external consumer.

Exactly.

[Mikadzuki Tatsu]

Ok, heres the problem with how you're looking at it: comics made in japan by japanese people for a japanese audience are not a GENRE. You are claiming that all japanese comics have some attribute in common (which is not an uncommon voiced opinion) but I imagine this is because you were introduced to Japanese comics as from Japan, right? and hence, different.
I don't look at manga as a genre. The fact that manga come from Japan has little to nothing to do with the fact that manga strike me as being different from American comics. I have found elements in manga that I have yet to find in any American comic. True, there are some manga that are very similar to American comics, but there are others that are not. That's what I was talking about when I said "unique element."

[Leader Desslock]

Thats kind of pathetic that Mirriam-Webster's definition doesnt include the (disputed) origin of the word - Hokusai's "manga". Im curious to know the process in which they determine what is a new word and what it's meaning will be.
The purpose of a dictionary is to document common spelling and usage of a word in society, not set the 'proper' definition of a word. If the folks at M-W didn't include the definition you list, then it's because they didn't perceive it to be in common usage among a significant portion of English speaking people.

As far as the origin of the word, that would be something you'd find in an etymological dictionary, not necessarily a standard dictionary. For example, here:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=manga

...which you'll see does reference the origin you list.

[Dan]

The purpose of a dictionary is to document common spelling and usage of a word in society, not set the 'proper' definition of a word. If the folks at M-W didn't include the definition you list, then it's because they didn't perceive it to be in common usage among a significant portion of English speaking people.

As far as the origin of the word, that would be something you'd find in an etymological dictionary, not necessarily a standard dictionary. For example, here:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=manga

...which you'll see does reference the origin you list.

But shouldnt the 'proper' definition be what is made to be the common definition? Thats all I'm saying. Still, if M-W comes up with "a Japanese comic book or graphic novel" as John reported, I am concerned about the state of creating words in the english language, since "manga" literally means comic and not Japanese comic. (In japanese, of course) Its like how everyone messes up fatwah, which just means an order or decree, not a specifically violent or ill-intentioned order.

So because ignorance is more common it should redefine an already defined term? Thats my problem.

[Mikadzuki Tatsu]

But shouldnt the 'proper' definition be what is made to be the common definition? Thats all I'm saying. Still, if M-W comes up with "a Japanese comic book or graphic novel" as John reported, I am concerned about the state of creating words in the english language, since "manga" literally means comic and not Japanese comic. (In japanese, of course) Its like how everyone messes up fatwah, which just means an order or decree, not a specifically violent or ill-intentioned order.
I'm beginning to wonder if words borrowed from a foreign language (not just Japanese, but other languages, too) will ever truly have "proper" definitions in the English language. There will always be some people who define a foreign term by its common English-language usage, and others who define it by its literal translation.

So, what should the dictionary definition of manga be? There's already an entry in the dictionary for "comics," and we're not like the Japanese, who sometimes use Japanese words and English words interchangeably. Think about it: how many Americans do you know use the word "manga" to refer to all comics?

[Leader Desslock]

But shouldnt the 'proper' definition be what is made to be the common definition?
The underlined portion of what you're saying is where you're misunderstanding the purpose of a dictionary.

It is not, nor has it ever been, the purpose of a dictionary to pro-actively DEFINE words for use by speakers of the language. That's 1984. A dictionary is a mirror, not a blueprint. If a significant percentage of the population is using a word 'incorrectly', then that 'incorrect' definition will be added to the dictionary as a 'common usage'.

Artificially defining language for people to use has never been particularly successful in the annals of human history. If it had been, we'd all be speaking Esperanto or writing our speech in the International Phonetic Alphabet.

...if M-W comes up with "a Japanese comic book or graphic novel" as John reported, I am concerned about the state of creating words in the english language...
The state of creating words in the English language hasn't changed in a thousand years. Words are added to speech as people use them. Words are added to dictionaries as people use them consistently. That's how languages grow and evolve. It's one of the strengths of the English language, not one of its weaknesses.

So because ignorance is more common it should redefine an already defined term? Thats my problem.
Not redefine, but augment.

There's a nice quote from the Terry Pratchett novel Lords and Ladies that's suitable here:

Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The point of the passage is that words like wonderful, fantastic, glamorous and terrific sound nice until you realise what those words really mean. In the words of Granny Weatherwax, "Elves are beautiful. They've got... style. Beauty. Grace. That's what matters. If cats looked like frogs we'd realize what nasty, cruel little bastards they are."

[Dan]

So, what should the dictionary definition of manga be? There's already an entry in the dictionary for "comics," and we're not like the Japanese, who sometimes use Japanese words and English words interchangeably. Think about it: how many Americans do you know use the word "manga" to refer to all comics?

I feel the dictionary entry should read "comic book or strip. language of origin: Japanese".

And I know no Americans use it to refer to all comics, but they also dont speak in Japanese, so why use it at all in the first place? Yes, yes, I know - to distinguish the country of origin and imply a general style. I know I cant change that, but dictionaries shouldnt succumb to the popular misuse. (They get fatwah right, why not manga?)

Artificially defining language for people to use has never been particularly successful in the annals of human history. If it had been, we'd all be speaking Esperanto or writing our speech in the International Phonetic Alphabet.

Haha, good point. But still, what you're saying isnt entirely true. It works both ways in that the upload to dictionaries is from use, and the download is in defining when someone does not know what a word means. When a word HAS a meaning and is entered into a dictionary (and the english language) with another meaning, something went wrong. Taking my fatwah analogy again, even though its most commonly used incorrectly, it is clearly defined accurately in all dictionaries I've checked. Even kaizen accurately made its way to english.

Really, can you give an explanation to why manga should be identified any way differently than its original language's meaning? Which you might have answered with...

Not redefine, but augment.

There's a nice quote from the Terry Pratchett novel Lords and Ladies that's suitable here:......... "Elves are beautiful. They've got... style. Beauty. Grace. That's what matters. If cats looked like frogs we'd realize what nasty, cruel little bastards they are."

I get it, and I dont completely disagree with you. At the end of the day I'm more interested in how language has developed than policing how its used. ;) I guess I'm more interested now in how manga got warped and accepted into dictionaries, but words like fatwah and kaizen didn't.

[hiroaki]

In Japanese, "Manga" is just the word for comic books. If you went to Japan, handed a copy of Spiderman to a Japanese person there and asked them what it was, they'd say "manga." Since we don't call all comic books in the U.S. "manga," and broad use of the term in the U.S. is relatively new, asserting a rigid definition is a difficult proposition.


they say Amecomi/アメコミ (American comic).

Japanese manga that Korean drew exists, too.

[Leader Desslock]

I guess I'm more interested now in how manga got warped and accepted into dictionaries, but words like fatwah and kaizen didn't.
Just an educated guess here, but I'm guessing that manga made its way in through popular culture, while fatwah and kaizen made their way in from more formal studies of other cultures.

In other words, you might hear a teenager with an imperfect grasp of other languages and cultures (or even his own) talk about manga (see: 'manga cows') and his clique might be the subculture through which the word 'manga' is introduced to the language. Kids reading manga knew about the term before the marketing execs at D.C. did, odds are. Then it got picked up by the marketing guys who used it to 'spin' their products, and voila - the documented and consistent use of the term (as far as the Dictionary editors can tell) contains that 'spin', which is different than its original culture's use.

Make sense? I can point you to a dozen common words in the English language where this sort of thing has happened.

It's doubtful that culturally illiterate teens and the marketing execs who court them would be the avenue for a term like fatwah, however. That would probably come from academia, just as the term kaizen would probably come about from a study of foreign business practices. These routes would be more likely (thought not guaranteed) to introduce the terms to the language in their original contexts.

In short, pop culture might be the fastest avenue for foreign words and phrases to enter the language, but it's not necessarily the most accurate.

This goes both ways, you understand. American pop culture has spread into every corner of the globe, and Engish words and phrases have been incorporated into countless languages. How many of our words and phrases were ported to other languages without attention to their cultural context? I've laughed so hard at some of the things on engrish.com that I've had to wipe the tears from my eyes.

It's nobody's fault; it's just what happens when very different languages and cultures collide.

[Gannon]

And I care when people attempt to attack the authenticity of a work based on its origin rather than its content.

Agree with this.

[Dan]

Just an educated guess here, but I'm guessing that manga made its way in through popular culture, while fatwah and kaizen made their way in from more formal studies of other cultures.

In other words, you might hear a teenager with an imperfect grasp of other languages and cultures (or even his own) talk about manga (see: 'manga cows') and his clique might be the subculture through which the word 'manga' is introduced to the language. Kids reading manga knew about the term before the marketing execs at D.C. did, odds are. Then it got picked up by the marketing guys who used it to 'spin' their products, and voila - the documented and consistent use of the term (as far as the Dictionary editors can tell) contains that 'spin', which is different than its original culture's use.

Make sense? I can point you to a dozen common words in the English language where this sort of thing has happened.

It's doubtful that culturally illiterate teens and the marketing execs who court them would be the avenue for a term like fatwah, however. That would probably come from academia, just as the term kaizen would probably come about from a study of foreign business practices. These routes would be more likely (thought not guaranteed) to introduce the terms to the language in their original contexts.

In short, pop culture might be the fastest avenue for foreign words and phrases to enter the language, but it's not necessarily the most accurate.

This goes both ways, you understand. American pop culture has spread into every corner of the globe, and Engish words and phrases have been incorporated into countless languages. How many of our words and phrases were ported to other languages without attention to their cultural context? I've laughed so hard at some of the things on engrish.com that I've had to wipe the tears from my eyes.

It's nobody's fault; it's just what happens when very different languages and cultures collide.


No, I understood that before you elaborated. I meant more specifically, like when it was first used for business practices or first credited for public recognition, etc. Even so, I would think and hope dictionaries should record the word of its original meaning.
Still, I feel its kind of pathetic. But there are a lot of things I feel are pathetic about niche subcultures, we've discussed before about online communities and social delinquients, so we dont need to get into that again.

But then its really a shame when this happens:

Japanese manga that Korean drew exists, too.

I'm assuming you mean a Korean person? So then how is it Japanese if it was created by a Korean person? And how do you define Japanese or Korean?

[Leader Desslock]

No, I understood that before you elaborated. I meant more specifically, like when it was first used for business practices or first credited for public recognition, etc. Even so, I would think and hope dictionaries should record the word of its original meaning.
Well, that's what etymological dictionaries are for. ^_^

I understand what you're saying, which is why I've got this huge monstrosity of a dictionary sitting on my shelf. It's sort of an all-in-one word reference with usage AND etymology. It's not the OED, but it's more complete than the little paperback dictionaries people use.

You know, if you know the proper use of a word that's not in a given edition of a dictionary, you can always contact the publisher of that dictionary with the definition and documentation to back up your use of the word.

[Holy Knight]

I refer to "manga" when I want to specifically describe japanese comic books. "Manga" is just the japanese term the japanese employ, so in English it would be interchangeable with "japanese comic books" since they describe the same thing. What they mean may not be, but in this case it's the context that counts. "Manga" is just shorter to say, so I use that. Seems to me that the term is employed rather exotically, hence all the drive from marketers to using a new, foriegn word that captures the latent human curiosity.