Problems with the Yasukuni shrine

[tsuki no miko]

Just 2 days ago was the independence day of Korea. My brother and I hung up our Taegukgi outside our apartment window to celebrate this day.

Now apparently I know that this day is also the End of the war day for Japan. Japan loses WW2 and we gain our freedom. It's so odd how the destinys of the two countries can split from one same consequence. We rejoice and Japan is devastated.

Anyways, there's been a lot of controversy about Koizumi paying his respects at the Yasukuni shrine on the 15th of August. Since Yasukuni symbolically holds the spirits of A level war criminals, paying respect to them directly triggers anger in China and Korea with no doubt b/c both were colonies.
But I hear that many Japanese people went to the Yasukuni shrine that day.

Now I'm wondering(and I really wanna know as someone with such a different viewpoint), what are the Japanese people actually thinking when they go to that shrine? Does it mean that they are genuinely not sorry for the war they brew up? Does it mean that they actually really wanted to win WW2? Does it mean that they're not sorry for colonizing and terrorizing other countries?

I don't want to start some flaming war but I really wanna know. I also saw this documentary by BBC-it was about the atomic bomb and how Japan surrendered. The impact and danger of the atomic bomb and the stories of actual witnisses chilled my blood but what also chilled my blood was the fact that Japan didn't surrender after the first bomb dropped. Japan did look eager to win an ugly war.

So help me out here~what do the Japanese people think about the Yasukuni shrine?

[Ageha]

I can't really say what the Japanese who visit and pray at Yasukuni are thinking, except I imagine most of them are *not* praying for the class A war criminals. Indeed, Koizumi claims he isn't either (as far as I'm aware, anyway), though considering how China and Korea feel, among others, I'm a bit dubious about his incredibly public visits to the shrine (in the past he's stated that these are private/personal visits, as an individual and not Prime Minister...but they certainly look public to me and this year's visit was *definitely* as PM). I've even read that many Japanese people aren't supportive of the visits, at least visits as long as he's Prime Minister, and not Average Citizen, Koizumi.

[kiyomi]

The shrines and temples in Japan, in my humble opinion, is nothing more than a place for my people to go to, to pray for their dearly departed loved ones. Some people go there to wish for luck, or prosperity in their life..some go there for peace and tranquility.

It has a different meaning for each individual, just like the churches do here, in America.

Try not to think too deeply in the meaning of our temples and shrines.

You must remember, that the Japanese people look at their God, in everything that is Nature inspired. The trees, water, wood, fire, wind and earth. We see the beauty and the simplicity that surrounds our exsistance.

Way before the wars (WW1 & WW2), we have always had temples and shrines to worship in and to pray in. That is our religion. That is our way of life.

There's no "hidden agenda' or "conspiracy" or "maliciousness" behind why we go to temple.

It's just merely a place for us to find peace and tranquility.

Of course, this is all my opinion, and other native Japanese people might think differently than I do about our temples and shrines. But, that's what being human means. To be an individual. To think for ourselves.

When I go back to my homeland and visit a temple or shrine, I go there to see the beauty in the structure of it. How it was made. Do I see a "meaning" behind the structure..or in it? Sure I do. I see..Peace. Tranquility. Solitude.

That's probably what my people were thinking when they went to the Yasukuni Shrine that day.

Peace.

Tranquility.

Solitude.

[ShyanHaiJin]

I got a question

This shrine worships anyone who dies fighting for Japan, no matter how many war astrocities they commit. Fine, but what does the shrine have to say for the victims of those who caused war astrocities?

[Suiko Eiji]

I got a question

This shrine worships anyone who dies fighting for Japan, no matter how many war astrocities they commit. Fine, but what does the shrine have to say for the victims of those who caused war astrocities?

Actually, the Shrine includes only who died fighting for the Imperial family. While this means jack and squat concerning the first and second World Wars, it does make a clear cut definition for which side is let in during the fall of the Tokugawa shogunate and the Seinan War.

The addition of the war criminals, according to the Wiki about it, were almost added by accident. In the late 1970s, they were added to the rosters at Yasukuni in this sense: "In the late 1950s-early 1960s, Tokyo decided to list all those convicted of any class of war crimes to ensure that the remaining family members can receive a pension." There have been pleas from both international and members of the Japanese government to have the 14 Class As (14 out of 1000 War Criminals out of 2.5 Million total enshrined) removed. Yasukuni, as a private entity, is the one refusing to remove them. Yasukuni also is staunchly against "moving" them to a more secular memorial.

I have no real beef either way; there are criminals enshrined there, and despite all of this "rise of Japanese nationalism" talk, Japan has done nothing militarily that goes against their current Constitution. Once that happens, it is time for the International Community to start to worry. There is another part of me, that while visits by politicians may be a faux-pas, Yasukuni is a private organization. It can enshrine and/or worship whomever they please, regardless of right, wrong, or my (or anyone else's) feelings.

Tsuki, ShanHaiJin, how do you feel about Korean, Taiwanese, and other former colonials who are enshrined at Yasukuni?

I'm sorry if this was out of order or not what the OP and other readers were looking for. I myself am not Japanese; just the decendent of a 2.WW Pacific Vet (among other theaters).

[firstpressing]

Well some of the problems might quell if China and S. Korea are serious in allowing a one year pardon to visit the Yasukuni for the next PM.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060813/wl_asia_afp/japanchinaskoreadiplomacypoliticsshrine_ 060813071826

[ablo]

I wasn't alive during that time, but I can see how people can be offended about these things. Kind of how it would cause a huge uproar if the Prime Minister of Germany visited and paid respects to the graves of Nazis ( SS members and such). Not a good thing.

[Animematt55]

...i am getting really sick of all this war crap going on all around the world. I meanm he is payign respect for people that defended that country, and the Emporer...let him pray...

[ablo]

A bit off topic, but Tsuki no Miko, how do you write English so well? You type better than most Americans. Did you live in the States or something?

[tsuki no miko]

A bit off topic, but Tsuki no Miko, how do you write English so well? You type better than most Americans. Did you live in the States or something?
Thanks for the compliment~! :)
I was born in the States and lived there till I was 6years old. Then I went back to Korea and I've gone through the whole Korean education system-6years of elementary school, 3 years of middle school and 3 years of highschool. I'm in my 2nd year of university now^^. I guess growing up as a little girl in America was a good opportunity to learn English. Of course it was hard work trying not to forget English when I came back to Korea. I consider my English skills a blessing since I live in a country where EVERYONE strains so hard to become fluent in English. Thank you so much! I'm gonna try harder to be good at it ^_^ .

*back to topic*
Yes like Kiyomi said individuals maybe don't actually put much meaning in their going to temples. But Why, why does it have to that day? August 15th?
It does make me feel a bit uncomfortable. -_-;

And Suiko Eiji, you just pointed out a big dilemma in the Korean society. The controversy surrounding the people who gave in to the Japan colonization and turned against their own people. We call them 친일파(chin-il-pa) and there is a big hostility towards them. It's a big issue-_-;. I myself get angry at those people but sometimes I think..maybe some of them couldn't help it. If they wanted to survive they probably had to show positive behavior towards the Japanese. Anyways thanks for pointing it out.^_^

[Suiko Eiji]

And Suiko Eiji, you just pointed out a big dilemma in the Korean society. The controversy surrounding the people who gave in to the Japan colonization and turned against their own people. We call them 친일파(chin-il-pa) and there is a big hostility towards them. It's a big issue-_-;. I myself get angry at those people but sometimes I think..maybe some of them couldn't help it. If they wanted to survive they probably had to show positive behavior towards the Japanese. Anyways thanks for pointing it out.^_^

Thank you very much for addressing it. I only recently became aware that colonials fighting for the Emporer; in the US, when we hear about Yasukuni, we only hear of the war criminals. We never hear about what sort of person was enshrined at Yasukuni or dilemmas in other nations (or if they know about others of their Nationality that did fight for Imperial Japan), much like the chin-il-pa, and how they are viewed.

I can certainly understand some sort of resentment to the chin-il-pa who acted with the Japanese occupation in Korea but at the same time, I really cannot relate to the same sort of resentment of a conscripted Korean fighting and dying in the Phillippenes or elsewhere in the Pacific theater.

[hiroaki]

The standpoint of all Shintoisms is basically a right wing.

Moreover, there were those who gave up their lives after the end of the Great East Asian War, taking upon themselves the responsibility for the war. There were also 1,068 "Martyrs of Showa" who were cruelly and unjustly tried as war criminals by a sham-like tribunal of the Allied forces (United States, England, the Netherlands, China and others). These martyrs are also the Kami of Yasukuni Jinja. (http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/qanda.html#4)

また、大東亜戦争が終わった時、戦争の責任を一身に背負って自ら命をたった方々もいま す。さらに戦後、日本と戦った連合軍（アメリカ、イギリス、オランダ、中国など）の、 形ばかりの裁判によって一方的に“戦争犯罪人”とせられ、無惨にも生命をたたれた千数 十人の方々 (http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/annai/qanda.html)
大東亜戦争...

[tsuki no miko]

The standpoint of all Shintoisms is basically a right wing.




大東亜戦争...
Err..and yeah I don't like how the Japanese call it the
大東亜戦争-it sounds like they were trying to unite the Eastern countries(Korea Japan China) with a very good cause.

[hiroaki]

Err..and yeah I don't like how the Japanese call it the
大東亜戦争-it sounds like they were trying to unite the Eastern countries(Korea Japan China) with a very good cause.

It is better than the thought of the Shinto shrine becomes the torii's color.

http://imgnews.naver.com/image/001/2006/08/15/kp1_2060815p2118.jpg
http://imgnews.naver.com/image/001/2006/08/15/kp1_2060815p2119.jpg
http://imgnews.naver.com/image/001/2006/08/15/kp1_2060815p2132.jpg
http://japanese.chosun.com/site/data/img_dir/2006/08/16/20060816000017142.jpg

[Suiko Eiji]

I actually found the following quote on another forum and felt it should be posted here, being largely apathetic to the specifics of the Yasukuni issue...

Life would be so much easier if political leaders on this side of the Sea of Japan [in Japan - Suiko] stopped pretending nothing happened before August 8, 1945, and leaders on the other side stopped pretending nothing happened after August 14, 1945.

My comment on his location added for clarity.

[Spadesy]

He (the Prime Minister) was just paying his respects to the dead, regardless of whatever stigma is attached to those dead people.

I liked how he figuratively gave the world the finger and visited the shrine. The man has solidarity in his beliefs, and in my book, that places him right up there with Ghandi. It was simply a matter of expressing national pride, it's not as if he visited the place to insult China, Korea or others. He knows better than that.

[Starchild]

Hmmm, I find it's an intersting subject. Yasukuni problem can be seen in different ways by different people.

Personally, I think it implies Japan's self-confidence (or wish) in its never going back to the era of Asia-Pacific War, far from returning to militarism as some Asian countries hysterically claim.

It is undeniable that Asian people still hate the Great Empire of Japan, but many Japanese including me are wondering why they will not stop hating the president Japan. They tend to forget the fact that Japan at least did not have any war against any country after the war. If their theory that Japan is still obsessed with militarism is true, our country would have returned to it already in these 61 years...

It seems that some Asians, especially Koreans, unconsciously wish Japan be the nation of militarism forever, because it suppresses their hidden inferiority complex to the land of rising sun. They like to claim Japan invaded their own countries, but I find the claim is frequently heard when they want to conceal the very fact that they failed to be an independent nation before WW2.

(Let me try a historical simulation. Suppose that Japan had not attempted to colonize Korea, would they have successfully got independent? I hate to say this, but I'm afraid that the then Korea has less power enough to win the war of independence against China or Russia. It is interesting that many Koreans often hate to concede that Korea used to be a tributary state of China before First Sino-Japan War between 1894-1895.)

Don't you think it is sad that one cannot maintain his own national identity without making someone else his ultimate ungracious part? I believe their anger to Japan's invasion (I sympathize with them) and the fact that the then Asian countries failed to civilize themselve like Meiji Japan are the entirely different things.

I suspect that Asian people who hate Koizumi unconsciously fear that Japan is finally ceasing to be a heel in the historical stage.

[hiroaki]

If their theory that Japan is still obsessed with militarism is true, our country would have returned to it already in these 61 years...
But Korean (and cosmopolitanism) say.
Japanese Society for History Textbook Reform,Flag of Japan,Kimono, Kimi ga Yo,JSDF,Samurai,Japanese Emperor,Anime,Manga,Karaoke,Shintoism are　militarism (http://asapy.asahicom.com/02/asapy_story1297.htm). オッス オラ 極右 (http://www.playnote.net/archives/000337.html)

(　ﾟдﾟ)・・・・

( ﾟдﾟ )

[tsuki no miko]

It seems that some Asians, especially Koreans, unconsciously wish Japan be the nation of militarism forever, because it suppresses their hidden inferiority complex to the land of rising sun. They like to claim Japan invaded their own countries, but I find the claim is frequently heard when they want to conceal the very fact that they failed to be an independent nation before WW2.

(Let me try a historical simulation. Suppose that Japan had not attempted to colonize Korea, would they have successfully got independent? I hate to say this, but I'm afraid that the then Korea has less power enough to win the war of independence against China or Russia. It is interesting that many Koreans often hate to concede that Korea used to be a tributary state of China before First Sino-Japan War between 1894-1895.)

Don't you think it is sad that one cannot maintain his own national identity without making someone else his ultimate ungracious part? I believe their anger to Japan's invasion (I sympathize with them) and the fact that the then Asian countries failed to civilize themselve like Meiji Japan are the entirely different things.

I suspect that Asian people who hate Koizumi unconsciously fear that Japan is finally ceasing to be a heel in the historical stage.
Dang! I just wrote this long post and it got erased! :crybaby:
Ugh,, anyways

I find your opinion to be quite interesting and bothersome at the same time.
-_-; Your viewpoint that if it weren't for Japan Korea wouldn't have gotten its freedom sounds a bit dangerous to me. And I believe that its the very myth or excuse Japan is using to cover up its invasions and wrongdoings.

It's not a matter of "But if it weren't for us Korea would be.." kind of argument. What's important is that Japan invaded Korea for no good reason, suppressed them and took advantage of them. Koreans could never think that Japan helped in the process of getting back our country. It was Japan that actually stripped them of their independence!?

I agree history wise that Korea was a weak country. It wavered in the hands of China and Japan. And it's true that we couldn't have achieved freedom without the victory of America in the WW2. But that doesn't mean that Koreans didn't do anything to become independent. The 3/1 march, the terrorist attacks, the militias-I think all of these combined together resulted in our freedom.

It's scary how people have different view according to nationality. I'm sort of worried b/c from what you say it doesn't look like Japan is actually sorry about the war.(Or am I going too far?)

Anyways, nice to hear your view :).

[tsuki no miko]

But Korean (and cosmopolitanism) say.
Japanese Society for History Textbook Reform,Flag of Japan,Kimono, Kimi ga Yo,JSDF,Samurai,Japanese Emperor,Anime,Manga,Karaoke,Shintoism are　militarism (http://asapy.asahicom.com/02/asapy_story1297.htm). オッス オラ 極右 (http://www.playnote.net/archives/000337.html)

(　ﾟдﾟ)・・・・

( ﾟдﾟ )
Hey that's not funny -_-; (the link of that drawing-did you make it?)
And I think you're making the mistake of generalizing about some media reports. Jeez there's a lot of people with positive views on Japan.

I'll have to say that the Japan textbook reform is a problem but the other stuff? Naa

[hiroaki]

I'll have to say that the Japan textbook reform is a problem but the other stuff? Naa

Yes, the freedom of expression was violated.
'I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,' -Voltaire.　
This is a quintessence of democracy.

When does a Japan allergy of Korea recover?
http://nandakorea.sakura.ne.jp/img/sun01.jpg
http://nandakorea.sakura.ne.jp/img/kyaputsuba20031226.jpg
http://nandakorea.sakura.ne.jp/img/hikaru_go.jpg
http://nandakorea.sakura.ne.jp/img/doraoba.jpg

[Haro!]

I'd respect Koizumi's visits to Yasukuni, but it just seems that he is catering to Japan's right-wing thinkers. I've read of polls conducted in which the majority of people do not support Koizumi's visits. Hell the emperor doesn't even go there, that should say something.
As to the whole if it weren't for Japan Korea wouldn't be free argument that's kind of dumb. If Japan had their way, today there would be no korea and no korean language. However I think its time that the countries in that reason (primarily China) change their way of thinking on the subject. Japan no longer has the power to subjugate its Asian neighbors so there's no point in bringing that back. It is worrisome that China and Korea still seem to have an inferiority stigma in that sense. It is that stigma that doesn't allow, and won't allow a normalization of relations between those countries and Japan.

[tsuki no miko]

Yes, the freedom of expression was violated.
'I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,' -Voltaire.　
This is a quintessence of democracy.

When does a Japan allergy of Korea recover?
http://nandakorea.sakura.ne.jp/img/sun01.jpg
http://nandakorea.sakura.ne.jp/img/kyaputsuba20031226.jpg
http://nandakorea.sakura.ne.jp/img/hikaru_go.jpg
http://nandakorea.sakura.ne.jp/img/doraoba.jpg
Err..those links aren't showing.
And yes freedom of expression is important but mangling with facts or putting on a one-sided view is propaganda and should be looked into.
Hmm..and allergy you say? As a Korean I sometimes think these protests against Japan are kinda radical .I suppose this kind of phenomenon could be irritating in Japanese eyes but please try to put yourself in the other's shoes. People do have reason to respond to these things.

and Haro
about that inferiority stigma-I'm not sure about China but I don't think Koreans have that kind of thinking going on. -_-;

[hiroaki]

Err..those links aren't showing.
And yes freedom of expression is important but mangling with facts or putting on a one-sided view is propaganda and should be looked into.
Hmm..and allergy you say? As a Korean I sometimes think these protests against Japan are kinda radical .I suppose this kind of phenomenon could be irritating in Japanese eyes but please try to put yourself in the other's shoes. People do have reason to respond to these things.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/271/hikarugoyh3.jpg

I mean the government inspect the textbook.

[Haro!]

and Haro
about that inferiority stigma-I'm not sure about China but I don't think Koreans have that kind of thinking going on. -_-;
I'm sorry I may have chosen the wrong words -_-; Its more like hmm how to say it, I'll get back to it. Not so much inferiority but they (mostly seen in China) constantly see themselves as victims of Japanese aggression, so much to the point that its become almost part of the national identity. I don't mean to say that they didn't suffer because of the Japanese, just that it is very much a part of their view of their nation. It is partially up to the Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos etc, to atleast let go of part of that stigma and mostly up to the Japanese to own up to their mistakes.

[Starchild]

It's not a matter of "But if it weren't for us Korea would be.." kind of argument. What's important is that Japan invaded Korea for no good reason, suppressed them and took advantage of them.
Hmmm, I understand you personally, but at the same time I'd like to know how you tell good from bad. In the 19th century there was no alternative but to colonize someone else or to be colonized by someone else.

When Japan had a war against Russia, Korea declared it would not be with each side. But the Korean emperor failed to comprehend his declaration means Korea will be a tributory nation of the winner. If Russia won the war, your homecountry would have been a territory of Russian Empire.


Koreans could never think that Japan helped in the process of getting back our country. It was Japan that actually stripped them of their independence!?The history proves that a country cannot be independent without experiencing a war of independence or the equivalent war. Is it possible that the then Korea won the wars against Sina and Russia?



I agree history wise that Korea was a weak country. It wavered in the hands of China and Japan. And it's true that we couldn't have achieved freedom without the victory of America in the WW2. But that doesn't mean that Koreans didn't do anything to become independent. The 3/1 march, the terrorist attacks, the militias-I think all of these combined together resulted in our freedom.I think Japan-Russia war was the final chance for Korea to be an independent nation on its own. If your country had decided to fight with Japan against Russia at that time, Japan would have recognized Korea's independence after the war. (Of course, Korea would have been a territory of Russia if Japan was beaten. Most western countries thought Russia would easily overcome the little country in the Far East.)

It's scary how people have different view according to nationality. I'm sort of worried b/c from what you say it doesn't look like Japan is actually sorry about the war.(Or am I going too far?)You mean, is it the way of sorrow to make you believe as if the historical views of the opposite side were perfectly correct? Even if I were not Japanese, I would be doubting the propaganda of Korea and China.

[tsuki no miko]

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/271/hikarugoyh3.jpg

I mean the government inspect the textbook.
Bwa haha~! That picture's so funny :lol:
And you know what? Those pictures are considered a big joke in Korea too.
Only KBS(The national channel) does it and I sometimes wonder why we do it too. :P

[ablo]

Bwa haha~!

"Bwa ha ha"? Evil laugh? :huh: Maybe I'm being over analytical. Whatever. It's 2 in the morning.

Anyway, I don't think the Chinese have an inferiority complex. Quite the opposite I've seen actually. A lot of Chinese think they're better than everyone else, as they are one of the oldest civilizations (older than Japan).

[Starchild]

I think a superiority complex is frequently the other side of an inferiority complex.

[ablo]

Please elaborate. Your statement seems contradictory.

[Spadesy]

That maybe they act superior because they feel inferior and have to compensate?

The Chinese are all about face, to other people or other countries. Or at least that's what I read in Lonely Planet's guide to China.

They have some interesting social customs over in the PRC, like tobacco diplomacy. It's rude to offer a cigarette alone to initiate a conversation, the polite thing to do is pull a cigarette slightly out of the pack and offer for the other person to pull it out.

They also smile not only if they're happy, but when they're uncomfortable.

[daike]

It's nice to know this thread is not in flame yet. :)
Well, backing to the first topic,


Now I'm wondering(and I really wanna know as someone with such a different viewpoint), what are the Japanese people actually thinking when they go to that shrine? Does it mean that they are genuinely not sorry for the war they brew up? Does it mean that they actually really wanted to win WW2? Does it mean that they're not sorry for colonizing and terrorizing other countries?

I often read Korean newspapers (Japanese version). It seems that Koreans have kinda extreme viewpoint to Yasukuni shrine. They seem to be considering that to visit Yasukuni is to show support for Imperial Japan. Each person has each reason to visit Yakuskuni shrine: to show respect to war dead, own conservative policy, he/she hates foreign interference, and some person might be showing he/she support war criminals. However, the word WW2 reminds common Japanese "the dark past days" filled with piles of dead citizens including families and friends, not reminds "the glory days."

I want to point out Japanese often use keyword "postwar era" when talk about history and politics, which means "Japan after WW2." I think one of the biggest differences between Koreans and Japanese is the viewpoint to postwar Japan.

Generally, Japanese consider Imperial Japan died in 1945 so today's Japan is different country from it, because Constitution was perfectly changed, Emperor lost political power, military was dismantled and keeping oath of no-war. Oppositely, Koreans seems to consider today's Japan is the heir to Imperial Japan still having military ambitions. (I'm getting such impression from newspapers. Sorry if I'm wrong.)

I think the truth is between the two viewpoints. Actually Japan is a heir of Imperial Japan in law, but the both are different. Everything was changed by America, and common Japanese got good influences from it. However, the memory of dead people is still kept in the people's depth of heart. The common Yasukuni visitors don't support Imperial Japan, but they also don't want to forget the old days with their family or friend. Imperial age's things were erased from Japanese society, but Yasukuni Shrine is a rare place which keeps the atmosphere of old era. They want to think the death of family/friend was honorable, and want to think it worth to be a cornerstone of today's peaceful Japan, not a useless death. It is a very sensitive point for Japanese....based on emotion, not logic.

That is the reason why many people (old people especially) visit Yasukuni shrine.

I know Koreans have very sensitive point too about Yasukuni shrine. But I'm wondering why Koreans are such sensitive in Yasukuni because actually they know the shrine is not for war criminals but millions of war dead. I'm guessing it is based on their idea of the continuity of Imperial Japan and postwar Japan. They don't know the class-A war criminals had already lost political power in 1945 and in the Americanized postwar Japan. Ironically, their name keep power in Korea and China still now.

The impact and danger of the atomic bomb and the stories of actual witnisses chilled my blood but what also chilled my blood was the fact that Japan didn't surrender after the first bomb dropped. Japan did look eager to win an ugly war.

I don't think from August 6 (the first nuke) to 15 is too long. Remember German didn't stop battle until Berlin was captured and their leader died. In 1945, to accept defeat meant Emperor would be killed. The 9 days are not long enough for the ministers to decide to send their boss to execution ground. Finally, Emperor decided to accept defeat. Finally he was not killed, and some ministers, aka class-A war criminals, were hanged.

[daike]

For your information: Opinion polls by Yomiuri Shimbun
(http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/feature/fe6100/koumoku/20060817.htm)

Q Do you support prime minister Koizumi's visiting for Yakuskuni Shrine in August 15th?
A1. Support.........................42.8%
A2. Somewhat support............9.8%
A3. Somewhat do not support...6.0%
A4. Do not support................33.1%
A5. Don't know/No answer........8.3%

(Question only for A1 and A2 answerers)
Why do you support Koizumi's Yasukuni visiting?
A1. To commemorate the war dead is expected to prime minister...35.1%
A2. To visit Yasukuni shrine will be "the oath of no-war"...............30.6%
A3. To visit in August 15th is his commitment.............................. 7.2%
A4. To stop the visiting by the reason of negative reaction from
China and Korea is irrational.............................. .....................25.3%
A5. Other................................... ........................................ ..0.7%
A6. Don't know/No answer.................................. .....................1.0%

Which is the best place to commemorate the war dead?
A1. Yasukuni Shrine.................................. .........................25.4%
A2. Yasukuni Shrine (without Class-A war criminals).................18.8%
A3. Yasukuni Shrine
(non-religious corporation controlled by government)................5.5%
A4. Upgraded and developed Chidorigafuchi National Cemetery....10.6%
A5. New national facilities without religious atmosphere.............30.3%
A6. Other................................... .......................................0 .6%
A7. Don't know/No answer.................................. ..................8.9%

[tsuki no miko]

Ah, Daike san~!
So nice to see you on the forums again~!^^
Thank you for pointing the thread back to its original position.
Your information and point of view are very helpful to what I've been wanting to know. The poll you posted is a great reference.

And about Korean newspapers -_-;. Yes, actually I even think Korean newspapers get hysterical. Do you happen to read the ChosunIlbo? Because if you do I'd just like you to know that the newspaper is highly known to use exaggerated titles and stories at times. :naughty:

Anyways, as a communications major I'm trying to look at Japanese militarism in a persuasion perspective. I'll have to go get some books from the library^_^.

[tsuki no miko]

Hmmm, I understand you personally, but at the same time I'd like to know how you tell good from bad. In the 19th century there was no alternative but to colonize someone else or to be colonized by someone else.

Hmm..yes if history goes a certain way I guess the world tends to follow the flow right?

Which brings me back to the roots of imperialism. I know that it sprung when the industrial revolution was in full throttle. Produce and material were overwhelming so that people had to look for a different place to invest their money and look for raw materials. And this resulted in the invasion of other countries.

But sometimes I wonder, why did world history have to go this way? Was there actually no other alternative? Was it something that could not be helped? Countries could have come together in a friendly agreement or treaty to help each other out.

I know I could be naiive but I just sometimes think about it that way.
But thanks for your viewpoint, again. ;)

[hiroaki]

Bwa haha~! That picture's so funny :lol:
And you know what? Those pictures are considered a big joke in Korea too.
Only KBS(The national channel) does it and I sometimes wonder why we do it too. :P

South Korea was restricting the Japanese culture.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6880/kyaputsuba20031226cw1.jpg

Taegeukgi...

[Starchild]

Tsuki no miko, I understand you at least are not hysterical.

[hiroaki]

Is Japan a hebetude? or are Korea and China nervous? or Both?

[tsuki no miko]

South Korea was restricting the Japanese culture.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6880/kyaputsuba20031226cw1.jpg

Taegeukgi...
Yes, Korea has restricted Japanese culture because they thought it would give a bad influence on children and make them forget their own cultural heritage.

But in 1998 the movement for the free release of Japanese culture started and I think the restriction on movies and anime was finally removed in 2004.

*uhh..but we're digressing a lot* :P

StarChild-thanks! I don't think anyone's hysterical on this thread.

[ablo]

The Chinese are all about face, to other people or other countries. Or at least that's what I read in Lonely Planet's guide to China.


So is Korean and Japanese culture.

[Ninja337]

http://imgnews.naver.com/image/001/2006/08/15/kp1_2060815p2118.jpg
http://imgnews.naver.com/image/001/2006/08/15/kp1_2060815p2119.jpg
http://imgnews.naver.com/image/001/2006/08/15/kp1_2060815p2132.jpg
http://japanese.chosun.com/site/data/img_dir/2006/08/16/20060816000017142.jpg
Totally unrelated, but the Japanese flag is the second most burned flag.
http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Japan

I personally support Koizumi's decision. It matters not why these men died, it just matters that they died for their country. He has the right to pray for his fallen countrymen long ago. It wasn't their decision to fight, they were only subjugated to propoganda and stuff from the emperor and State Shinto.

[Spadesy]

So is Korean and Japanese culture.

Yeah, I give up on trying to distinguish them in terms of who's mroe notorious for face.

[KuroiKenshi]

Hmmm, I understand you personally, but at the same time I'd like to know how you tell good from bad. In the 19th century there was no alternative but to colonize someone else or to be colonized by someone else.



I know im really late in getting into this discussion (its not my fault!!! NTT Nishi-Nihon took a long time in getting me the internet) but I wanted to say that I completely agree with Starchild's point about colonization. That was the way that history was flowing in that century.

However, I don't think that just because thats the way history was going that one can excuse it. The one thing that really annoys me about a lot of the american commentary I see about Yasukuni is that most Americans have forgotten (or just never learned) about our own country's history of colonization and imperialism, starting with the Native Americans and continuing through the colonization and occupation of the Philippines, and so on and so forth. I think that the most important thing here is to remember that the motivations behind much of WWII were less altruistic/self-defensive than we think, and when we criticize Imperial Japan for its actions, we should be similarly critical (perhaps mindful is a better word) of the actions of our own country.

Getting back to the topic of Yasukuni, personally I don't really have a problem with Koizumi going there. I do have a problem with the historical viewpoint that is presented in the museum attached to Yasukuni shrine, but I find it honorable that Koizumi is paying respects to the people who died fighting in WWII, almost all of whom, whether they were Japanese conscripts or conscripts from the colonies, had little choice in the matter. Its unfortunate that all of those people are enshrined similarly with the war criminals, but that doesnt mean that we should forget what they went through.

[Spadesy]

I don't think any country should be criticized for what happened back in WWII. That was a different time, when the world was still about taking territory, it was conventional war. Of course it won't correspond to modern day belief that military forces should only be used for policing or peace keeping.

[daike]

Getting back to the topic of Yasukuni, personally I don't really have a problem with Koizumi going there. I do have a problem with the historical viewpoint that is presented in the museum attached to Yasukuni shrine, but I find it honorable that Koizumi is paying respects to the people who died fighting in WWII, almost all of whom, whether they were Japanese conscripts or conscripts from the colonies, had little choice in the matter. Its unfortunate that all of those people are enshrined similarly with the war criminals, but that doesnt mean that we should forget what they went through.

I think prime minister should pay respect to died people, but I have a suspicion that his shrine visiting may violate the constitutional separation of government and religion. I'm ignorant about other country's way of showing respect. Just curious, how other countries which took policy of separation of government and religion have national memorial event for war dead? Is it based on religion?

[KuroiKenshi]

I think prime minister should pay respect to died people, but I have a suspicion that his shrine visiting may violate the constitutional separation of government and religion. I'm ignorant about other country's way of showing respect. Just curious, how other countries which took policy of separation of government and religion have national memorial event for war dead? Is it based on religion?


Our president (the US) visits the Arlington cemetery. It is a little bit different from a "shrine" because people aren't "enshrined" (by which i mean 祀られていない) but the idea of having a cemetary is in itself part of the judeo-christian tradition, and you might say that the act of burying patriots there is a religious act.

Not to mention that he still is sworn in over the bible. And a lot of other traces of religion in the US government.

[ShyanHaiJin]

Tsuki, ShanHaiJin, how do you feel about Korean, Taiwanese, and other former colonials who are enshrined at Yasukuni?
Yeah I was going to ask about that too. It didn't make sense for them to be enshrined there. Even though they fought for Japan they're not Japanese and their families want their bodies returned to their homelands but the Japanese ultrarightists blocked them.

The addition of the war criminals, according to the Wiki about it, were almost added by accident.
Actually I think they were intentionally added. If you go to the Yasukuni website they say the 1068 war criminals were wrongfully tried and that they should be considered the "Matyrs of Showa." That's why they were enshrined.
http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/

[ablo]

I understand you at least are not hysterical.

* Me posting on the Japanese culture forum* (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9015039751037156260&q=german+kid+angry)

I know it's old...but still. :P