American Artists Drawing "Manga" [Archive]

Ninja337

August 8th, 2006, 03:22 PM

Plue

August 8th, 2006, 04:57 PM

I don't really like it. Manga to me is Japanese.

Ariel Tsuki

August 9th, 2006, 08:11 AM

According to the Meriam-Webster's dictionary manga is Japanese graphic novels. Not Japanese-styled or anything like that.

Unfortunately Japanese manga is extremely culturally invasive. American, Franco-Belgian and English graphic novels are as dead as they've ever been, and manga is getting audience from older teens and females, who were never really into "comics". Girls and more recently teens have not liked comics, and it's mostly older males who buy them now. This is mostly because of notion that American graphic novels have slower stories and go on forever and have characters that never change. This isn't true ofcourse, but this is what the public believes. But MANGA on the other hand, manga can do no wrong. The new influx of teenage girly-men weaboos tote manga as "not being comics" and "having a much better art style". Manga has become a buzzword of the comic industry. Girls buy them, bookstores carry them, and everybody wants to draw this new style of comics. Manga is the same graphic novel we've had in this country for generations, and if anyone tells you otherwise, you've been fooled. It's all just panel and caption, pencil and ink. So now all the cartoonists want to draw this new "Manga" that sells to girls of all people and are perceived as better than western graphic novels and all that other stuff.

If you think about it though, American cartoons are much more diverse than their Japanese counterparts. I don't see any Japanese Mad, or New Yorker or political cartoons. Just 5 cm x 10cm tankabons and big thick phonebook periodicals. Not that those are bad, but America has cartoons that are equally as good as Japan's. Don't abandon American tradition for some new trend you think will get you a higher payed or recognized artist.

Japanese do have political cartoons or the such, such as Eagle:The First Asian American President. But remember, stuff like that is catering to the Japanese with issues that they're dealing with. People forget that the manga released here in the States are a small fraction of the stuff in Japan and the ones that do get licensed either a) appeal to American audiences or b) have a huge fan following through scanlations and such. Also, they do have political themed anime as well, Gundam Wing (as much as some people hate it) had a strong political theme in it.

I fail to see what diversity of American comics that you talk about. Mind you, I'm a fan of it, but before manga made its impact in the States, there are only superhero comics and "underground" comics. I think the popularity of manga make them step up their game and promote more of the "underground" comics. In my opinion, manga has a far more diversity in topics than American comics do. Anime to American cartoons too.

And anime and manga are too old to be a "trend". A trend is like Ugg Boots or Louis Vuitton bag, manga and anime been around for decades in America and pretty much becoming a niche in American entertainment, so it's understable that people want to make and release their own "manga", because it's been an influential part of their lives. And just because I'm American, I don't have to follow the "American tradition". People have a right to do anything that they want to do, so if they want to draw OEL manga, well let them eat cake.

riceavenger

August 9th, 2006, 01:11 PM

If you think about it though, American cartoons are much more diverse than their Japanese counterparts. I don't see any Japanese Mad, or New Yorker or political cartoons. Just 5 cm x 10cm tankabons and big thick phonebook periodicals. Not that those are bad, but America has cartoons that are equally as good as Japan's. Don't abandon American tradition for some new trend you think will get you a higher payed or recognized artist.

Actually, there is an indie comic scene in Japan that contains materials that are quite different from the norm. Viz used to release some of these works through their Pulp inprint. Since most of these mangas are "underground", we don't hear much about them. I'm willing to bet even most Japanese don't know too much about these comics.

If we're talking about mainstream comics, I think Japanese manga tends to be more diverse. The US comic mainstream comic market is still dominated by superheroes. If Marvel evers put out a romance comic for girls and it sells as well as say, X-Men, I'm going to be very suprised.

Oh, as for "American manga", I'd have to say that I'm not very impressed by the artwork in most of them. Most of them seem fairly amaturishly drawn. I'm sure this will change in the next couple of years though. I would also like to see American forge their own paths rather then copy Japanese cliches.

Suiko Eiji

August 9th, 2006, 01:50 PM

And anime and manga are too old to be a "trend". A trend is like Ugg Boots or Louis Vuitton bag, manga and anime been around for decades in America and pretty much becoming a niche in American entertainment, so it's understable that people want to make and release their own "manga", because it's been an influential part of their lives. And just because I'm American, I don't have to follow the "American tradition". People have a right to do anything that they want to do, so if they want to draw OEL manga, well let them eat cake.

You're analysis on the American comics industry is spot on, I can't touch it (nor am I really a fan, I just happen to hang around a number of American and Japanese comic readers).

However, I think the jury is still out on whether or not Anime and Manga are a trend or a fad in the US. The market for anime is going through a slow contraction compared to its boom between 2000 and 2003. How many fans of the Pokemon-Gundam Wing generation are going to remain fans as long as you, myself, or even John have been fans? How many of these fans have already "moved on to greener pastures"? Manga right now, because of its cheaper licensure and production costs (hence lower retail prices) is going through a booming phase. How long will it persist? How many fans will it retain? It's a niche, I'll agree with you, but I don't think that being a niche necessarily means something cannot be a trend or fad at one point or another concurrently.

All I know is that it has only been a few years that I've been able to use the term "manga" and not really have to explain myself too much. Much the same way when checking out an anime section at Suncoast or Best Buy. It's being noticed by people who aren't necessarily fans or aren't inclined to become fans. I'll never own a Louis Vuitton bag or Uggs (though I have chastized my Ex-girlfriend for her Fugg boots), but I know what they look like. When it all goes away, it'll be a faint pop culture memory and I think the general public will eventually see anime and manga doing the same thing.

Matsu'o Tsurayaba

August 9th, 2006, 05:10 PM

I suppose such a thing is alright,but a small part of me hates such a fact.

Kagon Retsuzan

August 10th, 2006, 12:44 PM

Well, "manga" basically means "entertaining visual(s)" in Japanese, so that doesn't mean manga with American authors can't be called just that.

I mean, what else would you call them? It would be kinda weird to call them just comics if they were in fact in the Japanese style, even if the author is American. That's kinda like if a Japanese person drew in the American style. Would you call the finished product "manga?" I don't think so. There's a clear cut schism here in America as to what comics are and to what manga is.

Basically, I agree with Ariel the most in terms of response. Anyone should be free to draw in whatever style they want to, after all, creativity/individuality is very hard to come by now.

VidelCoolGirl

August 10th, 2006, 01:00 PM

I look at it more as the spirit of the person's art. You could be the best "anime style" artist out there, but because you weren't born in Japan, it will never get seen as manga.

I think as long as they mean it to be manga style, it can be manga. Samurai jack wasn't anime, but it was inspired by so, and so I see it as a type of anime, even if not official.

I'm not one of those fangirls whos like "Noes! He has to be from japan or its not real manga!" It's all fine as long as it isn't like that "Peach Fuzz" or whatever crap that's in the newspaper. HATE that comic.

Mikadzuki Tatsu

August 10th, 2006, 07:08 PM

I think we should all just call them "manga-style comics" or "Amerimanga," because that'll satisfy both parties--both the fans who refuse to call anything that's not from Japan manga, and the fans who couldn't care less.

Magami No ER

August 10th, 2006, 08:19 PM

A comic's a comic's a comic for me at this point. People will use the word "manga" for Amercian made works for their own reasons, be it to appeal to a certain crowd, or even the obvious "manga-style" which only exists in people's minds, as manga can look as beautiful as Clamp's works to as cruddish as Crayon-Shin-chn and both be popular.

Laharu

August 10th, 2006, 11:15 PM

American artists and manga rarely seem to work out I have found. =\
If it was good, I would care that it was done by an American. But it's really hard to find any that are...well...good.

Ariel Tsuki

August 11th, 2006, 07:22 AM

You're analysis on the American comics industry is spot on, I can't touch it (nor am I really a fan, I just happen to hang around a number of American and Japanese comic readers).

However, I think the jury is still out on whether or not Anime and Manga are a trend or a fad in the US. The market for anime is going through a slow contraction compared to its boom between 2000 and 2003. How many fans of the Pokemon-Gundam Wing generation are going to remain fans as long as you, myself, or even John have been fans? How many of these fans have already "moved on to greener pastures"? Manga right now, because of its cheaper licensure and production costs (hence lower retail prices) is going through a booming phase. How long will it persist? How many fans will it retain? It's a niche, I'll agree with you, but I don't think that being a niche necessarily means something cannot be a trend or fad at one point or another concurrently.

All I know is that it has only been a few years that I've been able to use the term "manga" and not really have to explain myself too much. Much the same way when checking out an anime section at Suncoast or Best Buy. It's being noticed by people who aren't necessarily fans or aren't inclined to become fans. I'll never own a Louis Vuitton bag or Uggs (though I have chastized my Ex-girlfriend for her Fugg boots), but I know what they look like. When it all goes away, it'll be a faint pop culture memory and I think the general public will eventually see anime and manga doing the same thing.

That slowing is due to many factors, however the anime market is kinda up from last year. People still have a issue with prices and the distributors with the issue of the anime companies with the high price on getting licenses for even the crappiest of anime. And fansubs... Messy stuff.

But I think anime went beyond the "fad" phase. Yeah, it's going into a "boom" but it doesn't determined a fad. Anime was been growing in popularity ever since 1998 with Pokemon captiviting kids and it's getting even bigger. I know it'll come a day it won't be as popular as now, but I doubt it'll fade away like Ugg Boots.

Suiko Eiji

August 11th, 2006, 07:56 AM

That slowing is due to many factors, however the anime market is kinda up from last year. People still have a issue with prices and the distributors with the issue of the anime companies with the high price on getting licenses for even the crappiest of anime. And fansubs... Messy stuff.

I agree. While some people have more pessimistic preminitions concerning the anime industry's performance, I'm just an optimistic sort of guy. The contractions and growing pains are causing market corrections, just as they should. But, when talking about licenses, I think we need to take a qualitative and quantitative look at what's being licensed now. For the first time, that I can recall, since probably 2002 or 2003, older anime titles are being licensed, as opposed to during a period from 2002-04, it seemed like virtually everything that was being picked up was from those same years, and were darlings of the fansub community. Now, we're seeing variety; however, I think we're seeing variety only because, while older anime may not sell well, older anime are probably in a better position to be bought by older fans of the medium. Even though we're seeing variety, the total numbers of new licenses are lower than that of previous years.

Pricing and distribution will remain high points of contention, so long as the majority of the fanbase remains young and technology moves forward. Also, fansubs are a double edged sword which opens up a new, different, and entirely too messy can of worms. I agree with your statement whole heartidly.

But I think anime went beyond the "fad" phase. Yeah, it's going into a "boom" but it doesn't determined a fad. Anime was been growing in popularity ever since 1998 with Pokemon captiviting kids and it's getting even bigger. I know it'll come a day it won't be as popular as now, but I doubt it'll fade away like Ugg Boots.

This is why I think the jury is still out on the issue. I know people who came in with Gundam Wing and left when the market severly contracted. I know people who've been with it since they ran home from school to watch Robotech. I suppose it's varies from person to person on how one perceives it currently. On one hand, I could argue alongside you that it is a slow-growing, yet steadily, gaining popularity overall yet at the same time, one can look at each individual boom and see the number of people that came in and dropped out within that short time span.

Also, while the fashion industry is an excellent model of a trend industry, I don't think there is any other industry that copies, or even operates on that model. The anime industry is probably more akin to playing the stock market. Some stocks rise steadily over a few years, split, rise again - this is anime over the long term; or similarly, the anime boom of 2003 can be like the Dot Com fiasco of the late 1990s - hundreds upon hundreds of IPOs start up and something like 75 to 90% bombed out all in a short amount of time.

Funkmasta

August 12th, 2006, 02:22 PM

Well, "manga" basically means "entertaining visual(s)" in Japanese, so that doesn't mean manga with American authors can't be called just that.

Because thats exactly what "comics" means.

I mean, what else would you call them? It would be kinda weird to call them just comics if they were in fact in the Japanese style, even if the author is American. That's kinda like if a Japanese person drew in the American style. Would you call the finished product "manga?" I don't think so. There's a clear cut schism here in America as to what comics are and to what manga is.

NOT.AT.ALL.

You need to read some more manga and comics my friend...

In fact heres the nail in the coffin.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/Demescus/vol12b.jpg

A Japanese Berserk cover, look at the top.

The japanese use "Manga" and "Comics" interchangeably.
Manga basically translates to Comics, as Mangaka basically translates to Cartoonist.

Basically, I agree with Ariel the most in terms of response. Anyone should be free to draw in whatever style they want to, after all, creativity/individuality is very hard to come by now.

The antidote to lack of Creativity and Individuality is drawing in a set style?....
That makes no sense. 0_0

No one save Tezuka is going to naturally draw in the cliche "manga" style. Normal artists simply develop one over time, people who draw in the manga style are oversaturated with one kind of influence.

Soluzar

August 12th, 2006, 02:32 PM

To me, the term manga is equated to "Japanese graphic novel," and only that. I call American-produced, manga-inspired comics "manga style" or "Japanese graphic novel style," since that's what they are. I'll be blunt: the Koreans came up with their own term for their manga-inspired comics. I think we Americans are creative enough to do the same. ;)

Exactly. I read some American comics. I read some Japanese manga. I might even read some American comics which an art style inspired by manga, but I'll view it as somethng separate from and distinct from manga.

There are plenty of series (both American an Japanese) I want to read, so I haven't found the time for any American "manga" yet. Maybe when I start to hear good word of mouth about it, I will.

HitokiriShadow

August 12th, 2006, 04:58 PM

I don't mind them calling it American Manga or Ameri-Manga or whatever. If it looks interesting, I'll give it a look. So far, most of it looks pretty derivitive and uninspired. However, I read the first volume of Fool's Gold and I enjoyed it, so people looking to give Manga-inspired comics a try may want to give that one a look.

Mikadzuki Tatsu

August 12th, 2006, 05:08 PM

The japanese use "Manga" and "Comics" interchangeably.
Manga basically translates to Comics, as Mangaka basically translates to Cartoonist.The Japanese use "manga" and "comic(s)" interchangeably because, to them, those are just two different ways of saying the same word - one way in Japanese, the other in English. Just like how they use "anime" to refer to all animation, regardless of country of origin, because that's what the word literally means.

However, to people outside of Japan, "manga" and "comic" might as well have separate definitions. In America, when most people hear the word "comic," they think of classic Marvel comics, for example, or the Sunday comics in the newspaper. Likewise, when most people hear the word "manga," they think of Japanese comics. Even bookstores differentiate between the two: the manga section and the comic section may be next to each other, but they're still different sections.

Funkmasta

August 12th, 2006, 06:27 PM

And?
What is so fundamentally different aside from nation of origin and common technical aspects not shared? (color, length, etc.)

I know how people like to group them, but I disagree with all those people.
And anyones whose actually in the comics buisness (the people making these "american-manga") should know better then the bookstore for-consumer classification. They should know that Manga isn't big eyes and nosebleeds, they should know that american comics aren't superheros and color.

Look at Frank Miller, huge manga fan. Lone Wolf and Cub fanatic. It had big influences on him.

And compare him to these Amerimanga artist/writers.

Mikadzuki Tatsu

August 12th, 2006, 07:41 PM

And anyones whose actually in the comics buisness (the people making these "american-manga") should know better then the bookstore for-consumer classification. They should know that Manga isn't big eyes and nosebleeds, they should know that american comics aren't superheros and color.
I wasn't talking about what those two words mean to people in the comic business. I was talking about what those two words mean to everyone else. To a lot of people (manga fans in particular), comics and manga don't "mean" the same thing. The two words bring to mind different things.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Technically - and to those in the comic business - manga and comics fall under the same category. I was just trying to make a point, in light of the fact that the whole "manga vs. comics" tends to be a rather sensitive topic.

Kagon Retsuzan

August 14th, 2006, 06:26 AM

NOT.AT.ALL.

You need to read some more manga and comics my friend...

In fact heres the nail in the coffin.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/Demescus/vol12b.jpg

A Japanese Berserk cover, look at the top.

I've been reading both manga and American comics for about 15 years, so please don't tell me to "read more of them." That gets on my royal nerves, and is the last resort of those who can't handle the truth (i.e. to seem all high and mighty by telling someone to do something).

You're looking too far into this anyway. I said there was a clear cut schism as to the differences between manga and comics, and there really is, whether manga in Japan are published by a company that uses the word "comics" in its name (only to make the company name more sensible, it wouldn't sound right to call Jump Comics "Jump Manga" now would it?) or not.

And it's mighty funny that you couldn't come up with a response to that middle paragraph which I stated, but you could pick the last sentence of it apart. I smell a conspiracy. :naughty:

The japanese use "Manga" and "Comics" interchangeably.
Manga basically translates to Comics, as Mangaka basically translates to Cartoonist.

Correction, they only use "comics" and "manga" interchangeably when it comes to the actual book/tankoubon/whatever and the company name itself. Like I said before, it wouldn't sound right to call a manga company "So-And-So Manga" like it would to call them "So-And-So Comics." Which sounds better for a company's name, "Jump Comics" or "Jump Manga?" I thought so.

The antidote to lack of Creativity and Individuality is drawing in a set style?....
That makes no sense. 0_0

Yes it does, because there's more variety in drawing in another style compared to drawing in one/two different styles. Manga allows that *looks at One Piece and Crayon Shin-chan, which look NOTHING like manga*, unlike American comics, where if you draw in a way that's outside the norm, it's shat upon.

You're gonna tell me that drawing in a different style, one that doesn't have so many boundaries on it compared to others, ISN'T the antidote to lack of creativity? That basically means that you think everyone drawing the exact same way is the antidote, then, which is completely wrong, IMHO :P

Funkmasta

August 14th, 2006, 10:50 AM

I've been reading both manga and American comics for about 15 years, so please don't tell me to "read more of them." That gets on my royal nerves, and is the last resort of those who can't handle the truth (i.e. to seem all high and mighty by telling someone to do something).

I call it like I see it.

You're looking too far into this anyway. I said there was a clear cut schism as to the differences between manga and comics, and there really is, whether manga in Japan are published by a company that uses the word "comics" in its name (only to make the company name more sensible, it wouldn't sound right to call Jump Comics "Jump Manga" now would it?) or not.

Sensible?...
I don't follow your logic here.
Essentially it would make more sense to use japanese characters instead of english.

And it's mighty funny that you couldn't come up with a response to that middle paragraph which I stated, but you could pick the last sentence of it apart.

That was the defining sentence.

Correction, they only use "comics" and "manga" interchangeably when it comes to the actual book/tankoubon/whatever and the company name itself. Like I said before, it wouldn't sound right to call a manga company "So-And-So Manga" like it would to call them "So-And-So Comics." Which sounds better for a company's name, "Jump Comics" or "Jump Manga?" I thought so.

I repeat. A japanese company would be using japanese characters if they were trying to be sensible.
Just go to a translation site and put in "Manga". It translates to Comics.
The clear cut schism is all in people's heads.

Yes it does, because there's more variety in drawing in another style compared to drawing in one/two different styles. Manga allows that *looks at One Piece and Crayon Shin-chan, which look NOTHING like manga*, unlike American comics, where if you draw in a way that's outside the norm, it's shat upon.

Funny, I recall The Dark Knight Returns, Maus, R.Crumb, etc. being highly popular and highly acclaimed names in the american comics world. Art Spiegalman even had a gallery show after Maus's success.

And what is "looking like manga"?
One Piece is one of the most popular series in Japan. To normal non-otaku japanese this "style" is irrelevant.
Katsuhiro Otomo(Akira), Kentaro Miura(Berserk), Takehiko Inoue(Slam Dunk, Vagabond), Hayao Miyazaki(Naausica of the Valley of Wind), Akira Toriyama(Dragonball, Dr.Slump), Goseki Kojima(Lone Wolf and Cub), Eiichiro Oda(One Piece).
All thier works don't look like the "manga style", and thier works are among the highest most popular/critically aclaimed in Japan.

You're gonna tell me that drawing in a different style, one that doesn't have so many boundaries on it compared to others, ISN'T the antidote to lack of creativity? Excuse me while I laugh. You probably support school uniforms as well.

I felt a little bad about my comments at the start of responding, but by the end I realize I was right.
Read more of them.

You know very little about american comics, and art in general.
All those artists I mentioned don't draw in the anime style. And aren't under its thrall like you suggest. They draw as they draw, not as offshoots of anime style. Imagine thier works if they'd gone drawing the anime style...
Styles come from simple drawing. If your style looks like a million others then its because you had tunnel vision of what art can be.

Kagon Retsuzan

August 14th, 2006, 11:49 AM

I call it like I see it.

Can't fault you for that. But the way you say stuff makes me think you're just trying to start a flame war or something(which is why I responded the way I did).

Sensible?...
I don't follow your logic here.
Essentially it would make more sense to use japanese characters instead of english.

Not for the company name it wouldn't, if the name of the company was basically in English/an English word, anyway. I could see your point if the company was called, say, "Shonen Manga" or something. Or if it was like here where you have a company like Del Rey Manga where the name would make sense whether it's called "such and such comics" or "such and such manga."

Like I said, for the very last time, the Japanese use of the word "comic" seems to be merely so a name can flow better. That's the last time I'm gonna say that.

I repeat. A japanese company would be using japanese characters if they were trying to be sensible.
Just go to a translation site and put in "Manga". It translates to Comics.
The clear cut schism is all in people's heads.

If "manga" truly meant "comics," why do people call manga and comics different things? And it's not because of the language barrier, I assure you (looks at how stuff like ramen and pocky is still called ramen and pocky even in other countries).

Funny, I recall The Dark Knight Returns, Maus, R.Crumb, etc. being highly popular and highly acclaimed names in the american comics world. Art Spiegalman even had a gallery show after Maus's success.

And what is "looking like manga"?
One Piece is one of the most popular series in Japan. To normal non-otaku japanese this "style" is irrelevant.
Katsuhiro Otomo(Akira), Kentaro Miura(Berserk), Takehiko Inoue(Slam Dunk, Vagabond), Hayao Miyazaki(Naausica of the Valley of Wind), Akira Toriyama(Dragonball, Dr.Slump), Goseki Kojima(Lone Wolf and Cub), Eiichiro Oda(One Piece).
All thier works don't look like the "manga style", and thier works are among the highest most popular/critically aclaimed in Japan.

See, if you actually READ my comments, you'd know that when I mentioned manga that don't look like the style, that I very vaguely mentioned that those manga are actually embraced.

In America, it's different. If you don't draw like Jack Kirby/Rob Liefeld/all those people, then your comic will either:

A. not be very popular
B. will have a very small cult following but still be relatively unknown (ex. Johnny the Homicidal Maniac), which still basically equates to not having a lot of popularity.

The Dark Knight Returns? Sorry, that's a pretty bad example of a "different-looking" American comic. You'll have to try again. And I don't recall it selling very well/being very popular either. Yeah, sure, it turned the world of comics on its ear (I personally loved it), but a lot of people disliked it for the art style. Go to other forums and ask people that have read it if they liked the art (or even the new direction it took). I bet most of them would say no. And that's a damn shame.

Maus? Eh, that book rarely comes up unless you do a Google search for it or something. That's a shame too. But I will admit that it has a different style for art and for storytelling.

R. Crumb is mostly underground as far as I can tell. I never even see or hear people talking about him or his works either, so he can't be that popular. (on an unrelated note, we were both born on August 30.)

It sounds like you're saying that if someone/something is hailed as one of the greatest things ever by one person or one company, it must be hailed that way by the rest of the people too. Hate to break it to you, but that doesn't work. Just because something actually deserves its praise (like the three things you mentioned above) doesn't mean it's gonna get it from everyone.

High acclaim =/= popularity. But I do kinda see your point.

I felt a little bad about my comments at the start of responding, but by the end I realize I was right.
Read more of them.

See, THIS is exactly why I responded in a snappy manner to begin with. People like you don't let others have their opinions peacefully. And it's also people like you that make others not want to post in certain forums on certain messageboards. I salute you. <_< No, really, I do.

You know very little about american comics, and art in general.
All those artists I mentioned don't draw in the anime style. And aren't under its thrall like you suggest. They draw as they draw, not as offshoots of anime style. Imagine thier works if they'd gone drawing the anime style...
Styles come from simple drawing. If your style looks like a million others then its because you had tunnel vision of what art can be.

And out the fangs come again. You just can't have an opinion on this board without somebody jumping down your damn throat.

Where did I say that "all those artists you mentioned" are under anime's thrall? And where did I say they drew as offshoots of anime style? I said that other people shouldn't crap on a certain comic for having a certain art style. Where do either of those questions come up in my last post? Here's what I said in a nutshell:

1. If you draw in manga style, then the finished product can rightfully be called manga.

2. Manga with artstyles that deviate from the norm can still have high popularity, unlike America where you basically have to draw in the superhero/cartoony style lest you want your comics to have less popularity than others. This is true for MOST, not for all. I'm just saying that so you can't put words in my mouth again like you've been doing for a while.

I know very little about American comics, huh? This post alone comes from years of knowledge (hell, even of stuff that came out before I was born) and from years of following artists and works from both sides. I think you're just saying that because you can't come up with anything better to say.

Funkmasta

August 14th, 2006, 12:45 PM

If "manga" truly meant "comics," why do people call manga and comics different things? And it's not because of the language barrier, I assure you (looks at how stuff like ramen and pocky is still called ramen and pocky even in other countries).

Like I said the japanese don't. Your points about "comics" flowing better as a word, is an entirely subjective thing. So it dosen't hold as a theory in the first place.

I call japanese comics "manga" as a simple identification of national origin.
Some people do.
Manga and comics being inheretly different is simply a widespread misconception.
They're only as different as Grizzly Bears and Polar Bears in general. The same kind of thing that has some overall differences because they grew up in different regions. European comics have alot of thier own attributes but people rarely if ever treat them as anything different from american comics.

See, if you actually READ my comments, you'd know that when I mentioned manga that don't look like the style, that I very vaguely mentioned that those manga are actually embraced.

You made it sound like they're exceptions, and that exceptions are given warm treatment in Japan.
They aren't the exceptions, they're the ruler makers.

The Dark Knight Returns? Sorry, that's a pretty bad example of a "different-looking" American comic. You'll have to try again. And I don't recall it selling very well/being very popular either. Yeah, sure, it turned the world of comics on its ear (I personally loved it), but a lot of people disliked it for the art style. Go to other forums and ask people that have read it if they liked the art (or even the new direction it took). I bet most of them would say no. And that's a damn shame.

Its hard to NOT find it on some American comic-ophiles top ten list.
And Iv'e checked already.
Books that don't sell well don't get refurbished special editions over ten years later.

Maus? Eh, that book rarely comes up unless you do a Google search for it or something. That's a shame too. But I will admit that it has a different style for art and for storytelling.

They had a stand for it in my school library. It won awards galore. Art gallery.
What more do I have to say?

R. Crumb is mostly underground as far as I can tell. I never even see or hear people talking about him or his works either, so he can't be that popular. (on an unrelated note, we were both born on August 30.)

He was underground in the 60's....-_-
Go to any Borders and you'll see a wealth of collected editions in the comics section.

It sounds like you're saying that if someone/something is hailed as one of the greatest things ever by one person or one company, it must be hailed that way by the rest of the people too. Hate to break it to you, but that doesn't work. Just because something actually deserves its praise (like the three things you mentioned above) doesn't mean it's gonna get it from everyone.

Praise =/= Not accepted?
That makes sense how?

1. If you draw in manga style, then the finished product can rightfully be called manga.

Thats saying manga is defined by art style.
Is One Piece manga then? Akira? Slam Dunk?

2. Manga with artstyles that deviate from the norm can still have high popularity, unlike America where you basically have to draw in the superhero/cartoony style lest you want your comics to have less popularity than others. This is true for MOST, not for all. I'm just saying that so you can't put words in my mouth again like you've been doing for a while.

How about you PROVE that claim then...
If you can manage to find DKR, Sandman, and Maus sales. And if they are low. I will concede.
But until then..

Mikadzuki Tatsu

August 14th, 2006, 12:45 PM

So manga and comics mean the exact same thing in Japan. That's wonderful. In America, they don't. Forget the literal translation of the word "manga." There are plenty of words out there for which the literal translation/meaning and the translation/meaning with which people associate it aren't the same (take the word otaku, for instance - a classic example).

What matters to most people is the connotation of the word. If people didn't care to differentiate between Japanese comics and standard American comics, then we wouldn't - and manga wouldn't have its own entry in the dictionary!

manga: a Japanese style of comic books or animated cartoons, often very violent or erotic.

comic: a magazine that consists almost entirely of stories told in a series of colored panels in which balloons over the characters’ heads provide dialogue and the thoughts of the characters.(Yes, the definition for manga is slightly skewed. But hey, I wasn't expecting it to be in the dictionary in the first place.)

That manga is in fact in an English-language dictionary is enough proof to me that, no matter what the literal translation of the word is, its connotation in the minds of English-language speakers is significant enough that someone out there felt it deserved its own dictionary definition (and that someone probably wasn't an anime fan).

There's nothing wrong with defining the word "manga" by its literal Japanese translation, but there's also nothing wrong with saying that, because manga and comics often mean two different things to people - because manga are different from what most people think of when they hear the word "comic" - it's okay to think of the two as different things.

And really, is it worth arguing over?

aoishonen7

August 14th, 2006, 01:11 PM

I Havent bought any american manga yet because I have found one that has peeked my intrest. I Don't really care what it's called just as long as the style is defined. If I publish my manga series, I'd hate to see any of my manga along side Superman or Spiderman. It's insulting to an artist in general. For example, say If Mars Volta were put along side Kenny Rodgers I'd think they would be insulted. Mabye there should be a new term like I dunno Amimanga or something. Just as long as it's defined by it's style and not it's place of origin it's fine by me.

Kagon Retsuzan

August 14th, 2006, 02:30 PM

Like I said the japanese don't. Your points about "comics" flowing better as a word, is an entirely subjective thing. So it dosen't hold as a theory in the first place.

Okay, I'll bite. >=P

I call japanese comics "manga" as a simple identification of national origin.
Some people do.

Thank you. At least you admitted that, finally. And there's nothing wrong with differentiating the two.

Manga and comics being inheretly different is simply a widespread misconception.
They're only as different as Grizzly Bears and Polar Bears in general. The same kind of thing that has some overall differences because they grew up in different regions. European comics have alot of thier own attributes but people rarely if ever treat them as anything different from american comics.

You know what, after reading that, you are absolutely right.

That's kind of a weird double standard you pointed out there too (was that intentional?). American comics and European comics are not usually seen as different, but manga and American comics are.

You made it sound like they're exceptions, and that exceptions are given warm treatment in Japan.
They aren't the exceptions, they're the ruler makers.

"Exceptions are given warm treatment if they're done right" is what I meant to say. All those series you mentioned strayed from the norm in terms of art style, so you kinda proved my point there.

And yes, they are the rule-makers, but they are still also the exceptions. That can't be denied.

EDIT: You know what, arguing over something as trivial like this ain't worth it, so I'll just shut up and say you win or whatever. Yes, I left part of the post alone, but that was for the sake of replying.

Muka Fohin

August 15th, 2006, 01:56 AM

manga is just the word for comics in japanese. if americans want to draw comics that look like a japanese style...then that is all it is. an american comic that looks japanese. i don't like how everyone is obsessed with words like anime and manga when all they mean is animation and comic.

HitokiriShadow

August 15th, 2006, 09:47 AM

Suiko Eiji

August 15th, 2006, 10:00 AM

Technically, anime just means animation and manga just means comic. In Japan. But that's not how the words are used in other countries like the U.S., England or Canada. They mean something different here. The specifically mean animation and comics FROM JAPAN.

You don't like it? Too bad. Deal with it.

Maybe its time for fandom outside of Japan to return to some of its roots: we should be using terms like 'Japanimation' again. :lol: I also suggest using "Japacomic" to refer the comics from Japan. :lol:

Soluzar

August 15th, 2006, 10:08 AM

Maybe its time for fandom outside of Japan to return to some of its roots: we should be using terms like 'Japanimation' again. :lol: I also suggest using "Japacomic" to refer the comics from Japan. :lol:
A part of me just died inside, I hope you're happy. :P

Suiko Eiji

August 15th, 2006, 10:14 AM

A part of me just died inside, I hope you're happy. :P

Only if it was the emo part of you that died. We need more of happy Biscuit.

Besides, I'm up for better suggestions rather than the rather pointless schism that exists in terminology as it stands.

Oh, and I've just realized, I never really answered Char's question: I don't care what style a comic book artist uses - if it allows them to sell more books, then by all means do it. I personally think that not checking out something or buying something because they aren't of Japanese origin or ancestry but using a Japanese style is stupid. If it's worth the asking price and one enjoys it, who cares where the author is from. If that's not the case, then leave it on the shelf. No one is forcing you to buy it.

Soluzar

August 15th, 2006, 10:21 AM

Only if it was the emo part of you that died. We need more of happy Biscuit.
As I've said to Desslock, every time I hear or read the word "Japanimation", I die a little on the inside. It's such an ugly word. With regards to seeing more of the happy Biscuit, I'll just check my Magic 8-Ball.

"All signs point to yes."

Besides, I'm up for better suggestions rather than the rather pointless schism that exists in terminology as it stands.
I can't deny the point. There's no term which is universally understood to refer to Japanese animation, as opposed to that originating in other parts of the world. From that perspective, "Japanimation" does represent a step forward. I can't claim to oppose it on anything other than irrational grounds.

Suiko Eiji

August 15th, 2006, 11:00 AM

As I've said to Desslock, every time I hear or read the word "Japanimation", I die a little on the inside. It's such an ugly word.

There was once a point I was like that, too. My early stages of fandom saw much usage of the word but as I grew up, it was continually replaced with 'anime'. It's only been recently, such as these past couple of months, with an increase of questions about "What is anime?", "How do you define anime?", or "Is this anime?" that I've only begun slightly pushing for usage of the word to return. This discussion about manga has headed in a likewise direction.

I would apologize for killing a little bit of you but it was the emo part. I'm glad its dead.

I can't deny the point. There's no term which is universally understood to refer to Japanese animation, as opposed to that originating in other parts of the world. From that perspective, "Japanimation" does represent a step forward. I can't claim to oppose it on anything other than irrational grounds.

That's kinda the thing about it; Japanimation (or Japanacomics, etc.) denotes exactly what we're talking about while excluding foreign (American or otherwise non-Japanese) productions of the respective medium, but it sounds pretty stupid. Even I think that. If anything, I can see people opposing it simply because of that; though, that may be your prime reason for irrational grounds.

HitokiriShadow

August 15th, 2006, 11:17 AM

"Sounding stupid" is exactly why it won't go back to Japanimation. Anime is an industry term now and it won't be changing.

And its only being questioned by people who don't understand that Japanese usage =/= universal usage.

Wind.::.Raven

August 15th, 2006, 11:30 AM

I don't really care about how companies choose to market their products. It doesn't BOTHER me that they call Peach Fuzz, I luv Holloween or Steady beat 'manga' but I don't really consider them manga. To me, they're comics.

This doesn't mean that I don't enjoy them if I don't consider them "manga", though. I've read a few of them and while I agree that most of them are not very good, I did enjoy Steady Beat, and while I didn't like the story in Fool's Gold, I can say that it was done fairly well.

When I'm refering to comics,
manga = comics form japan
manwha = comics from korea
manhua = comics from china
comics = comics from america or europe

For me, its just a classifaction in terms of where its from, not what style it is.

I have friends who read american comics, and when we talk they tend to get confused if I refer to Manga as comics so I just call it manga to differentiate. When someone who knows nothing about manga or comics asks me what I'm reading, I tell them "Japanese comics. They're called manga".

Mikadzuki Tatsu

August 15th, 2006, 12:01 PM

When I'm refering to comics,
manga = comics form japan
manwha = comics from korea
manhua = comics from china
comics = comics from america or europe

For me, its just a classifaction in terms of where its from, not what style it is.

I think if everyone - or most people, at the very least - agreed to follow this guideline, then the entire "manga vs. comics" debate would cease to exist, and we would all be much happier. :)

And if people start using the term "Japanimation" regularly, I'm going to be tempted to set up petitions. A small part of me doesn't die every time I hear that word; it just gets stabbed in the heart with a poisoned arrow.

Sagess

August 16th, 2006, 02:54 PM

I dont find anything wrong with that. Apparently the initial japanese character style was heavily inspired on Walt Disney characters.

So if Americans want to go the other way now (getting inspiration on the Japanese) its all good.

However, I do feel that they make it misfit sometimes. I dont have a manga example unfortunatly, but if anyone has ever seen "The bundocks" might feel the same way as I do. That cartoon is HORRIBLE!! I hate every bit of it...
Though most of the characters have a japanese feel to them, they just are not animated the same way, or behave as I often expect... i dont know...

Its like picturing hi-men or xmen crying river of tears, bleeding from the nose when embarrassed, or doing exagerated facial expressions, it just doesnt fit right.
=)

So if theyre gonna copy something, they should also copy the ideals behind them, not just the artwork.

Funkmasta

August 16th, 2006, 03:53 PM

What ideas?
Manga style is only an art term.

Boondocks if anything is a GOOD example of this. The guy is influenced, but dosen't call his comics manga...or the animated version, anime. Just influenced, and only so far.

He's influenced, not aping like OELS and your apparent preference.

Same with Frank Miller.

Mikadzuki Tatsu

August 16th, 2006, 05:07 PM

What ideas?
Manga style is only an art term.
But doesn't art also include the ideals behind the image(s) we all see?

Funkmasta

August 16th, 2006, 07:47 PM

But doesn't art also include the ideals behind the image(s) we all see?

Watery giant eyes and spiky colored hair?

Wind.::.Raven

August 18th, 2006, 09:11 AM

Rather than use the word 'ideals' I would use 'sensibilities' or better yet, 'cultural references'.

Sweet potatoes and cherry blossoms don't carry the same cannotations in other cultures that they do to the Japanese. I didn't know anything about honorifics or why the number 4 was considered unlucky. these are things I learned about Japanese culture through reading Japaneses comics, or 'manga'.

Even the visual cues (sweat drops, SD, nosebleeds, dramatic falls) I consider cultural associations rather than just lelments of style or narrative. I don't know of any other culture were a noosebleed signifies arousal.

That there's such a thing as 'Americanization' shows that there is some difference. Publishers change pop culture references at times, like in Ayashi no Ceres where they substituted Namie Amuro (I think) with Mariah Carey, but there were changes just to general culture issues as well, such as how publishers tended to change Osaka accents to Southern accents once they were translated. Then there is the language issue, where some jokes or puns on Japanese words would have to be entirely substituted for english equivalents. (I would love to give and example of this, but I really can't think of any at the moment)

Again, to me, MANGA = created by someone who grew up in Japanese society and culture and intended for someone who grew up in Japanese society and culture. Of course 'manga' still means comics, so yes they are comics, but they are Japanese comics. Where they come from and who they were intented for does make a difference.

But just becuase Japanese comics are different it doesn't mean they're better, or that people who try to emulate the artistic elements form Japanese comics aren't as good. In the case of 'American Manga' it isn't where they come from that makes them bad, its the skill of the artist and the actual content of the work itself that make it bad.

Susaku1223

August 21st, 2006, 02:31 PM

there is no such thing as an american manga artist

Samourai

September 8th, 2006, 09:46 PM

i dont really like american artists, but MBQ by felipe smith is great.

Ce'Nedra

September 8th, 2006, 11:22 PM

I don't like it when comics by non-Japanese artists are called manga. Calling the comics manga-style is fine, but in America, manga means Japanese comics.
On that note, I don't care what style people want to draw in. I do care about the quality of the story and the art. If it's good, I'll buy it. Just don't call it something it isn't.

Chousho

September 9th, 2006, 12:16 AM

...
Should they be labeled something other than "Manga"??
Comics made in USA?
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%A2%E3%83%A1%E3%82%B3%E3%83%9F
アメコミ
ame komi (American comics)

cybersamuri

September 9th, 2006, 09:00 PM

How do you feel about American artists drawing and writing manga style comics? How do you feel about companies slapping the "Manga" label on these?? An upcoming release (Star Trek by Tokyopop) has me wondering how everyone feels about this issue. Should they be labeled something other than "Manga"??
star trek looks like a absolute abomination. end of story. I'm a "trekkie" and I refuse to read it.
however, as far as american artists doing manga, as long as the art and story are good, who cares? I'm not a manga purist, not by a long shot, but the point of manga in the first place is entertainment, not weather or not the art form is staying within a perticular ethnicity.

Junkman

September 18th, 2006, 09:42 AM

personally i hate the word manga.

manga in japan means comics, right?

anime in japan means animated movie, right?

what would a japanese person call a spider-man comic book? a manga right?

what would a japanese person call a mickey mouse cartoon? an anime right?

so why do we call japanese things anime and manga?

u_nick

September 18th, 2006, 10:16 AM

its just the word that has become associated with it. Like coke and pepsi. they are both 'cola' but when you go into a restaurant, you can say 'coke' and theyll bring you whichever they have.

but it can be used to specify.

like if i wanted a pepsi, i would be sure to say 'pepsi, please'.

if i go to Waldenbooks, i dont want to say 'show me where the comics are' becuase they might point me to the spiderman stuff. i would specify 'manga' and know exactly what i am getting.

Suiko Eiji

September 18th, 2006, 10:27 AM

personally i hate the word manga.

manga in japan means comics, right?

Technically, yes, the modern definition of 'manga' is applied to comic art. Going back earlier, such as the early Meiji Era, it can also double as "sketchbook".

anime in japan means animated movie, right?

It's a shortened version of 'animation' which applies to all distrobution methods - TV, movies, direct-to-video, FLASH, etc.

what would a japanese person call a spider-man comic book? a manga right?

It depends; both the word 'komikku' and 'manga' are used almost interchangibly.

what would a japanese person call a mickey mouse cartoon? an anime right?

They would call it 'anime', implying that it is animated but not signifying a country of origin. As it has been adopted in English, there is an implying meaning of 'animation from Japan' and other such variants. This is where it gets confusing.

so why do we call japanese things anime and manga?

Because that's how the English language has adopted the word; either animation or comics from Japan (or other such variants). The English language has done likewise with other words, like sushi. If I say I am going to eat sushi for dinner, they know that raw fish is involved; but in actuality, there's more involved than the meat. If I only wanted fish meat, I would order sashimi.

meron_dori-ma

September 18th, 2006, 01:04 PM

maybe it should be called amerimanga? XD

That's exactly what I call it! But usually in a sort of playfully distainful way, just because I haven't liked most Amerimanga that I've seen/read.
See, the thing about manga, is that it's distinctly different from all other graphic novels in the world, in its art (duh), story, panel design, the way characters feelings are expressed and how important that is to the story, and every other way you can think of. If a graphic novel has all of these classic qualities of a Japanese manga, then I am proud to call it a "manga", whether it's by an American artist (or an artist from any other nationality) or not. I think it's unthinkable to say that Americans cannot truly make manga, because they are American.
As for graphic novels that don't quite cut it on manga-quality test, but were created by the author as a "manga"--if it has been published, you can't tell the artist that they're work isn't manga. It's just might not be authentic. Any one who knows manga can tell the difference between the two and simply choose not to read the other.

meron_dori-ma

September 18th, 2006, 01:41 PM

Okay, the more I read the responses to this thread, the more it pisses me off. I've been working on my own manga for two years now. (I won't even think about publishing it until it attains the qualities of a Japanese manga, because it is those qualities that inspire me). Are you saying that no matter what, my work can never be classified as manga--even if it has all the qualities of a Japanese comic--just because I was born in America? That's discrimination right there. Unthinkable.

Suiko Eiji

September 18th, 2006, 01:46 PM

That's discrimination right there.

Welcome to the underbelly of Japanese culture.

meron_dori-ma

September 18th, 2006, 01:49 PM

Things are changing.

Chousho

September 18th, 2006, 02:42 PM

Things are changing.
Change is constant. Changing how so and examples (of foreign "manga" being popular in Japan).

Manga is created in Japan by Japanese. What is so discriminatory about that? No matter how hard I wish, I will never be albino, is this also discriminatory?

meron_dori-ma

September 18th, 2006, 03:02 PM

I was talking about the changing of "discriminating" against non-Japanese in Japan. That's what I figured Suiko Eiji meant by saying "welcome to the underbelly of Japanese culture".

I'm not trying to become Japanese, I just want to make a Japanese manga (meaning it has the same qualities as an authentic Japanese manga). I want my work, if I acheive my goal of making it authentic, to be recognized as a manga. There's no reason why it shouldn't be. Catoragizing "manga" by the birthplace of the author strays from the point, which is the work of art itself. Of course, if you don't think that is most important, then I think we have found where we disagree.

kiyomi

September 18th, 2006, 03:11 PM

Well, lets see..they've accepted american baseball players to play in their leagues.....they've accepted american sumo wrestler...actors, actresses, models. So, why not manga and books in general? Sure..it CAN happen, if it hasn't already.(with Manga, that is.)

I know of some amercian authors in Japan that have published japanese books and have done very well.

So...sure. You could be accepted into the so-called "Manga" world.

meron_dori-ma

September 18th, 2006, 03:23 PM

TT-TT Thank You! Though I'll be part of it no matter what anyone says. :punch:

Chousho

September 18th, 2006, 03:54 PM

I have nothing against people drawing and mentioning manga influence. My main argument is this:

People seem to mention that they can draw manga because "manga" means "comic" in Japan, right?

Then why do they say they are drawing manga? Why not say they are drawing comics?

When I mention that I bought 5 new manga today, would you ask "did you get Spiderman?"

In Japan, yes, it is refers generally to comics, gag panel strips, and the like. Outside of Japan it refers to Japanese comics specifically. I am not calling manga a high art, but I am stating that people make a distinction between the two. Manga is something domestic to Japan when it is referenced outside of that country.

So many kids seem to say, "I'm going to be a manga ka!". Fine, go for it! Go to Japan, work for Shueisha, and put out some fine manga. I'll support you.
Otherwise, try for Marvel, DC, Image, Top Cow, whoever else. They seem to have many manga influenced comics that have come out recently.

But saying anyone from any country can do it is like saying, yeah, manga and manhua is the same, right?

Suiko Eiji

September 18th, 2006, 04:44 PM

I was talking about the changing of "discriminating" against non-Japanese in Japan. That's what I figured Suiko Eiji meant by saying "welcome to the underbelly of Japanese culture".

It's what I was getting at, though admittedly, I probably sounded a little more harsh than I maybe should have.

Native Japanese have a rough road in trying to make it as a manga-ka, especially on the professional level. That road is probably much, much harder for someone who isn't Japanese. It's just the way things are over there.

I'm not trying to become Japanese, I just want to make a Japanese manga

If the opposite were true, then I would worry more. As such, I won't address those concerns too deeply.

(meaning it has the same qualities as an authentic Japanese manga).

Which means of course it will be penned in Japanese, published by the Japanese, available at my local Japanese bookstore (or I can order it from them) and written from a Japanese cultureal perspective. If so, ganbatte and I look forward to reading your work.

I want my work, if I acheive my goal of making it authentic, to be recognized as a manga. There's no reason why it shouldn't be. Catoragizing "manga" by the birthplace of the author strays from the point, which is the work of art itself. Of course, if you don't think that is most important, then I think we have found where we disagree.

I'll agree with Chousho, I don't think nationality necessarily qualifies or disqualifies you for a job where performance and knowledge should be what determines you have a job. However, going into a profession where deep cultural knowledge is required, you have a much harder road ahead of you than a native. Again, ganbatte.

Well, lets see..they've accepted american baseball players to play in their leagues.....they've accepted american sumo wrestler...actors, actresses, models. So, why not manga and books in general? Sure..it CAN happen, if it hasn't already.(with Manga, that is.)

That's true. There are also skilled American judo-ka and British kendo-ka, just as there are good Japanese soccer/footballers. What I was getting at was that while it is easier for foreigners to get into and work in Japan (pending on the sector), they aren't considered Japanese. If koibito was looking to become a full-fledged expatriot for the rosey view of the Land of the Rising Sun and to become a manga-ka, the road would be so, so much harder. That's not the case and I overstated with my opinion on the subject matter.

meron_dori-ma

September 18th, 2006, 08:00 PM

Heh...it's true, I do plan to go to college in Japan (probably Waseda) and completely emerse myself in the culture. I also plan to live there after that. I undersstand it will be a long and difficult road, but I'm completely devoted. There's no stopping me. Trust me. Ganbaremasu!! My pen name/nickname is Koru, and that's what I want to be known as in the "Manga world". You might see this name in ten years or so :cool:

I know I sound too confident for my own good, but I have steel determination, and a lot of optimism. ^_^

Junkman

September 20th, 2006, 07:15 AM

what's in a name a manga named anything else would rule or suck just as much.

my big problem with the word manga as stated above is very much coming out in this thread.

Manga does not refer to the styling of comic book, it refers to the origin of that said comic.

I hate calling something American Manga because we already have a shorter word for that, Comic!

In short let me type less.

Old Ape Face

September 20th, 2006, 10:05 AM

*sigh* this disappoints me, the United States is meant to unify people and supposedly except people from other countries to live here, work here, and trade here, a country of "equality", are we being Hypocritical? i mean, when someone from another country moves the US, everyone has something to say about them. Many people don't understand how they live. But shouldn't we already know these things? everyone should know where people come from, and how they live because we're all supposedly equal.

in relation to Anime and Manga, we consider it a Foreign Art. and something that should be only considered a true form of the art style, if performed in it's original country. But we're a country of equality, it should be a part of our country, it should be considered a true form of the art style, in the US because we are somewhat related to Japan.

In most if not all Cases i believe the style of Anime and Manga should be known and considered Anime and Manga, as they are Japanese, however the field of Anime and Manga, stretch much farther away from Japan, the practice of it should stretch far from Japan, and the US should most definitely include Anime/Manga as a part of our Study subject.

people find it strange to here americans who animate in the Anime style. why should it be strange? Because it's Japanese? because we never thought of it first? we live in a country where 100 thousand people are possibly Japanese. does that mean they're strange to live in the United states?

We are a country of Equality after all. I respect other nations within our country as a whole because we represent a part of them. i Consider Anime a part of America, because we are some what part Japanese. Or supposedly we are.

what's in a name a manga named anything else would rule or suck just as much.

my big problem with the word manga as stated above is very much coming out in this thread.

Manga does not refer to the styling of comic book, it refers to the origin of that said comic.

I hate calling something American Manga because we already have a shorter word for that, Comic!

In short let me type less.

Manga in my opinion is more then a comic, not because of the style or the information but because of the Audience it tries to involve (mostly the adult spectrum.) i would consider Manga just as a Graphic Novel.

crow-kun

September 20th, 2006, 10:11 AM

Wow, that was the biggest piece of non-sense I've heard/read all day. Thanks.

Old Ape Face

September 20th, 2006, 10:12 AM

Wow, that was the biggest piece of non-sense I've heard/read all day. Thanks.

I take it you could care less?

Suiko Eiji

September 20th, 2006, 10:36 AM

I take it you could care less?

Well, if I can jump in; I'm forming my own response to the longer paragraph, and it will be long itself, but I find there is a major flaw in your piece:

the United States is meant to unify people and supposedly except people from other countries to live here, work here, and trade here, a country of "equality", are we being Hypocritical?

Starting ...

I respect other nations within our country as a whole because we represent a part of them. i Consider Anime a part of America, because we are some what part Japanese.

Ending ...

The two cannot be equal side by side; Americans can come from any sort of background, but there is a unified culture making one either American or not.

More elaboration to come.

Suiko Eiji

September 20th, 2006, 12:04 PM

I'm going to tackle this in a couple parts and I apologize, this does get kind of long:

Manga in my opinion is more then a comic, not because of the style or the information but because of the Audience it tries to involve (mostly the adult spectrum.) i would consider Manga just as a Graphic Novel.

There are graphic novels and comics in the US that search (and some do find) for an adult market. I'm not even really a comic book reader, but a few frineds of mine who are point this out to me. So, if its not the style of the presentation, if its not the information (by this, I assume you mean plot, genre, etc.), and its not the audience, then what really does seperate manga from graphic novels?

I say it all boils down to culture. Culture shapes tone, characters, and setting - all of which I feel can make or break a story. This is where the origin of the work really comes into what makes it different. As I said above in response to koibito, I don't think a person's nationality necessarily eliminates them from doing manga well, but it can be a detraction if the author is trying to create an authentic, true-to-definition, piece and they aren't intimately familiar with the home culture, Japanese, in this case.

*sigh* this disappoints me, the United States is meant to unify people and supposedly except people from other countries to live here, work here, and trade here, a country of "equality", are we being Hypocritical? i mean, when someone from another country moves the US, everyone has something to say about them. Many people don't understand how they live. But shouldn't we already know these things? everyone should know where people come from, and how they live because we're all supposedly equal.

in relation to Anime and Manga, we consider it a Foreign Art. and something that should be only considered a true form of the art style, if performed in it's original country. But we're a country of equality, it should be a part of our country, it should be considered a true form of the art style, in the US because we are somewhat related to Japan.

We consider them (anime and manga) to be foreign art ... because they are from - devised and influenced - by a foreign language and culture. Ideals of equality, while noble and I do agree with them, are aspects of American culture. I don't think that Japanese culture is overtly racist but I cannot really say the idea of universal equality is on par with the Japanese cultural fabric.

In most if not all Cases i believe the style of Anime and Manga should be known and considered Anime and Manga, as they are Japanese, however the field of Anime and Manga, stretch much farther away from Japan, the practice of it should stretch far from Japan, and the US should most definitely include Anime/Manga as a part of our Study subject.

Anime and manga are products of Japan; they are, however, finding audiences outside of Japan. If the same quality of production can be maintained in publications outside of Japan, then why not classify them as manga or anime? But there's more of a feel of either of these mediums than the "Big Eyes and Small Mouth" and sweatdrop stereotypes.

As a reference, let's look at the Japanese auto indsutry. When the first Japanese autos were exported to the US en masse in the 1960s, they were regarded as inferior to the local, domestic autos. During the 1970s Energy Crisis (crices is plural? eh, I mean to use the plural), Japanese manufacturers capitalized on where domestic American autos were failing - economy, efficiency, and quality. During the 80s and 90s, Japanese auto-makers began setting up manufacturing in the US but still maintained the quality controls that set them apart from domestic competitors; in other words - their corporate culture which was influenced by their native/national culture. If Nissan, Toyota, and Honda had altered thier American production from their Japanese corporate culture, they probably would have failed as a business. Likewise, anime and manga, which have that cultural foundation, exported and "produced" in a different culture, truly alters the feel.

people find it strange to here americans who animate in the Anime style. why should it be strange? Because it's Japanese? because we never thought of it first? we live in a country where 100 thousand people are possibly Japanese. does that mean they're strange to live in the United states?

No, but for many of the Nisei and Sansei (2nd and 3rd Generation ethnic Japanese Americans) there is also a cultural limbo between the culture they were brought up in and the culture they have adopted. If they've learned Japanese from their parents, their manner of speaking may be a little different than their contemporaries in Japan because of a lingual seperation. This is more common with Nisei whose families first immigrated from Japan in the late 19-teens and 1920s where the language used in the US became much more static, where it changed in Japan. A reletive of mine, visiting the town in Sweden where her parents were from, became ill there in the 1970s or 80s and an elderly person had to be brought in to translate her old Swedish that her parents taught her, to a more modern Swedish that the doctors could understand. This phemonenon is not unique to Japanese who become Americans although with the advent of the Internet and easier spreading of mass communications, this may be becoming less of an issue.

We are a country of Equality after all. I respect other nations within our country as a whole because we represent a part of them. i Consider Anime a part of America, because we are some what part Japanese. Or supposedly we are.

Here's where we seriously disagree. I believe in the universal equalities of the human species but I still recognize and support cultural, erm, integrity, for the lack of a better word, as much as I support cultural exchange. American and Japanese cultures are still fairly different and the foundations of which come from differing origins. While they may share similarities, especially as the more modernized nations begin to appear more and more alike, they are still different enough to not be mistaken for each other.

Chousho

September 20th, 2006, 12:26 PM

*alot of good stuff*
Good post. One that I fully agree with and could not have put any better. Also, good example using the cars.

I would also like to mention, that while people will say that adopting manga into America and having "American manga" is equal opportunities, I could point that it is stereotyping and could even be racist?

Calling something a manga because you like manga and draw the characters with the "big eyes and small mouth" is stereotyping what you supposedly like, along with saying that all of Japan's artists draw this same way - after all, it is "manga", right?

It is almost comparable to college's offering "equal opportunity" to people of different ethnic backgrounds. Are they being accepted to fill a quota or because they worked hard and merited it. It is almost as racist to accept someone to fill a quota, because it is degrading them that they can not reach the level of "other races", and are doing "as good as they can". However, that's a whole other can of worms, haha.

No matter how many cave walls I draw on, I can not call it "Cromag cave art" and tell the truth. Cromag inspired does have a nice ring though. :P

meron_dori-ma

September 20th, 2006, 01:12 PM

in relation to Anime and Manga, we consider it a Foreign Art. and something that should be only considered a true form of the art style, if performed in it's original country. But we're a country of equality, it should be a part of our country, it should be considered a true form of the art style, in the US because we are somewhat related to Japan.

In most if not all Cases i believe the style of Anime and Manga should be known and considered Anime and Manga, as they are Japanese, however the field of Anime and Manga, stretch much farther away from Japan, the practice of it should stretch far from Japan, and the US should most definitely include Anime/Manga as a part of our Study subject.

people find it strange to here americans who animate in the Anime style. why should it be strange? Because it's Japanese? because we never thought of it first? we live in a country where 100 thousand people are possibly Japanese. does that mean they're strange to live in the United states?

I think this is an interesting and compassionate take on the subject. Frankly, I agree with her, though I hadn't thought of it this way before. I find nothing wrong with this statement. :thumbsup:

Stutz

September 21st, 2006, 08:58 AM

Really there isn't any artstyle called manga. Anyone that reads a lot of manga can see the large differences in artstyles used by Japanese mangakas. Like it's already been stated, it's the cultural influences that really make manga what it is and it is why American "mangakas" will never be anything more than imitators because they can never capture the culture in their work. Many will try to say they draw in the "manga" style, but like I said there isn't one style in manga that you could call it an art style. Artstyles aren't something that people can easily copy really. Good artstyles are like the artist's signature and they are usually found after years of drawing.

I've read a lot of the supposed american OEL "manga" and non of it is impressive. Many of them rely to much on stereotypes that they really aren't interesting. Some of them don't even have artstyles that are even close to stereotypical manga and you have to wonder why they would ever try to label themselves manga in the first. A lot of them I have read fail to attach you to the characters, or they have lousy work on their transitions, or something that make them below even the average authentic Japanese manga. I don't really call these american "mangakas" and their work manga-influenced as much as I call them manga imitators. When it comes down to it business wise, do you really want to buy comics that call themselves "manga" or would you rather buy the real thing? Being a buyer of Japanese and American comics, I'd rather get the best of both countries.

Really to finish this, American Artists that draw "manga" to me really don't understand the comic medium as a whole, which an artist, whether they be American or Japanese should.

I'm not trying to become Japanese...

Heh...it's true, I do plan to go to college in Japan (probably Waseda) and completely emerse myself in the culture. I also plan to live there after that. I undersstand it will be a long and difficult road, but I'm completely devoted. There's no stopping me. Trust me. Ganbaremasu!! My pen name/nickname is Koru, and that's what I want to be known as in the "Manga world". You might see this name in ten years or so :cool:

I thought you weren't trying to become Japanese?

What I don't get is why are you are so intent on making a manga that is indistiguishable from the authentic thing to the extent you'd try and make yourself Japanese to a place you'd probably have very little success due to the harsh reality of the view of gaijin? If there are elements you like so much that manga utilize, why not use them in your own American comic? It seems to me you want to make an authetic manga so bad that it appears you are trying to imitate than try and be influenced by manga.

Manga in my opinion is more then a comic, not because of the style or the information but because of the Audience it tries to involve (mostly the adult spectrum.) i would consider Manga just as a Graphic Novel.

At least if you are going to try to make comparisons, at least have some knowledge about what you are talking about. Most of the manga you are reading are for the teen market which is what most mainstream US comics are focused towards along with some independent ones. When it comes to titles that are more geared for the adult reader, the US offers plenty of these types of titles whether they be independently produced or under different imprints from mainstream publishers like Vertigo for DC or MAX for Marvel.

There are plenty of comics in the US that are geared towards adults, the problem is they aren't easily available and usually require you go into a comic shop or buy them online. Read Y: the Last Man (which is getting into it's last year), Fables, WE3, Ex-Machina, The Walking Dead (a story that focuses on the people and their relationships in a Zombie apocolypse), and a lot of independent comics that I didn't mention here. Comics from US creators aren't just a bunch of iconic superheroes like some people seem to think.

If you want to preview some of the titles I mentioned and see what I mean, check out this Image preview page (http://www.imagecomics.com/onlinecomics.php) and while you are there check out Invincible along with The Walking Dead. Invincible was created by Robert Kirkman which also created Walking Dead. The first issue isn't enough to really expose you to Invincible's magic, but let's just say, it's definately lives up to the saying "Probably the Best Superhero comic out there". Instead of focusing on the superhero parts, it seems to focus a lot of the relationships of the characters. When Ryan Ottley took on the illustrations, the characters became a lot more expressive in their emotions and the flow of the panels are definately top notch. As for the place to check out Y, Fables, and I would recommend American Virgin while you are there, check out here. (http://www.dccomics.com/news/?nw=6186)

meron_dori-ma

September 21st, 2006, 09:36 AM

[QUOTE=Stutz]I've read a lot of the supposed american OEL "manga" and non of it is impressive. Many of them rely to much on stereotypes that they really aren't interesting. Some of them don't even have artstyles that are even close to stereotypical manga and you have to wonder why they would ever try to label themselves manga in the first. A lot of them I have read fail to attach you to the characters, or they have lousy work on their transitions, or something that make them below even the average authentic Japanese manga. I don't really call these american "mangakas" and their work manga-influenced as much as I call them manga imitators. When it comes down to it business wise, do you really want to buy comics that call themselves "manga" or would you rather buy the real thing? Being a buyer of Japanese and American comics, I'd rather get the best of both countries.

Really to finish this, American Artists that draw "manga" to me really don't understand the comic medium as a whole, which an artist, whether they be American or Japanese should.[QUOTE=Stutz]

My theory on why OEL manga isn't 'impressive' is this: While American's want to jump into the industry and build their wings on the way, the Japanese tend to perfect their technique beyond doubt and then begin publishing their work. While this OEL stuff seems half-assed, I believe it's really the beginning of an intriguing new genre, born from two unique cultures.

So I'd think twice about bashing OEL manga.

[QUORE=Stutz]I thought you weren't trying to become Japanese?

What I don't get is why are you are so intent on making a manga that is indistinguishable from the authentic thing to the extent you'd try and make yourself Japanese to a place you'd probably have very little success due to the harsh reality of the view of gaijin? If there are elements you like so much that manga utilize, why not use them in your own American comic? It seems to me you want to make an authetic manga so bad that it appears you are trying to imitate than try and be influenced by manga.[QUOTE=Stutz]

You guys...>_< Can you not understand that some people are just fascinated by Japan and it's culture?! There's nothing wrong with wanting to surround myself with my passion. I want to learn and experience as much as I can, and to do that, I must live there myself! And I will create what I will, whether you buy it or not.

Suiko Eiji

September 21st, 2006, 09:54 AM

My theory on why OEL manga isn't 'impressive' is this: While American's want to jump into the industry and build their wings on the way, the Japanese tend to perfect their technique beyond doubt and then begin publishing their work.

Working on perfecting their technique beforehand? Some do and some don't. The ladies of CLAMP got thier start printing thier own fanzines/doujinshi while many others, like Matsumoto Leiji, Monkey Punch, and Takahashi Rumiko all got thier starts just submitting something to a magazine that eventually got published. Some artists styles change over time in a single title, such as artwork differences between the beginning and end of Dragonball and Rurouni Kenshin. Others, like Takahashi Rumiko and Adachi Mitsuru have a recognizable design no matter what title is being read.

In short, one can't paint all manga-ka with a broad brush. Some are trained artists, others are self taught; some hammered out a style before submitting to a publisher, some just did it on a whim. Some styles change, some don't.

Danzoh Katoh

September 21st, 2006, 10:04 AM

I just want to post these again, cause I completely agree.
When I'm refering to comics,
manga = comics form japan
manwha = comics from korea
manhua = comics from china
comics = comics from america or europe

For me, its just a classifaction in terms of where its from, not what style it is.

I think if everyone - or most people, at the very least - agreed to follow this guideline, then the entire "manga vs. comics" debate would cease to exist, and we would all be much happier. :)

And if people start using the term "Japanimation" regularly, I'm going to be tempted to set up petitions. A small part of me doesn't die every time I hear that word; it just gets stabbed in the heart with a poisoned arrow.

No matter how many cave walls I draw on, I can not call it "Cromag cave art" and tell the truth. Cromag inspired does have a nice ring though.

Yes, yes! That's exactly the point.

But about this:

And I will create what I will, whether you buy it or not.
I don't understand why you keep responding only to reiterate the same thing, you're going to do what you want. I think we get it.

Oh and Stutz, I'm with you 100%.

CapnTylor

September 22nd, 2006, 05:04 AM

And if people start using the term "Japanimation" regularly, I'm going to be tempted to set up petitions. A small part of me doesn't die every time I hear that word; it just gets stabbed in the heart with a poisoned arrow.

Because it's really that big of a deal, isn't it! Jeez.

I've read a lot of American Manga from Tokyopop, and I'm not really a big fan. However, a lot of American Manga that you find distributed at conventions, probably published and printed and all that by the creaters, is really cool stuff. And the people are all really nice folk, too. They're not some "racists," or "imitators" that rely on the style for the extra cash flow by any means.

Also, art is art. That goes for any kind of music (J-Rock is still Rock), painting, dance, writing, comics, etc. Manga are still comics. I don't know why all people assume all Japanese comic artists draw like they're Naoko Takeuchi (eg Sailor Moon). Art-wise, it's just as broad as it is in America. Not only should it be a compliment that foreign artists are influenced by it, it's how ALL ART works in the first place. And there's no reason why it shouldn't be tagged manga, if it wants too. If Akira Toriyama says he gave Dragon Ball a CUBIST feel, and he wants it to be CUBISM, than that's his perogative. Stranger things have probably happened in the art world.

My favorite anime? It's funny you should ask! Why, my favorite anime is Avatar: The Last Airbender.