toughest angel, toughest eva

[DarthMigit]

Okay, this has been bugging me for sometime. Who is-overall-the most powerful angel in your opinion? Personally it's a close call between ramiel and zeruel. Also, which is the supreme evangelion? Factor in pilot skill, battle record etc but assume that eva unit 01 lacks its S2 organ and is hampered by its limited operational perameters. i.e. can't go beserk. Also assume that all the pilots are operating at peak performence (once again, excluding the Shinji/unit 01 berserk climax).

thank you :naughty:

[Wraith Gundam]

Angel wise, I can see why you'd think it would be Zeruel, since he did the most damage to Nerv and took out two eva's (BTW check this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UaML1dUXTU) out. LOL! ^_^ ).

But overall I think the most powerful Angel would be Kawaru/Tabris since he was the only angel to succesfully fend off the attacks of an Eva and reach Terminal Dogma.

[DarthMigit]

Ah but remember, Kaworu wasn't fighting alone. He had the aid of unit 02. Also, he successfully penatrated NERV without the use of force. He was already halfway to his goal before he even got started. Alone, he wouldn't have lasted six seconds before winding up as a greasy stain on unit 01's gauntlet.

[Reichu]

EVA-01 can't even be the governess of her own body? I'm not playing this game!

http://www.evacommentary.org/images_capdoc/reichu_yuisama-approve.jpg

You seem to only allow consideration of the superficial "pilots controlling giant robots" angle. Clearly, you are not going to establish who the most powerful Eva is that way, since an Eva has her own mind and body and is not intrinsically defined by her pilot.

The answer should be obvious, though.

All of the Angels are unique and do things differently, so it's hard to compare them as one might the Evas, who are all just variations on Adam. (Nevermind the whale heads on nine of them.) I hesitate to stick on superficial labels... but I do think Zeruel is da badass.

EDIT: Ireul also got into Nerv HQ without anybody noticing.

Tabris shouldn't really be a contestant since it's just Adam's uber-powerful soul inside a sucky, defenseless Lilim-type body.

[MagicianCamille]

Toughest? I don't care. Coolest? Sachiel mos def ef tee double you bar bee que.

[Tidusauron12]

My mom would make the sweetest eva soul ever. With me piloting, we'd destroy all other evas.... NERV... and then... TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!!! :devil:

[DarthMigit]

I am aware of the abstract and intricate nature of both the Eva's and the Angels, as well as their relationship with Adam. I know better than most to what extent the Evangelions are living, thinking beings and how each are defined not just by the pilot, but by the Angel who spawned them and by the soul that dwells within them. I do not regard their effectivness in combat simply based on the "pilots contolling giant robots angle" but I do consider the pilots a factor in defining the might of an Eva as I have never seen an Eva fight without a pilot and certain Evas are more stable depending upon the designated pilot. For example, as Yui's soul resides within unit 01, her maternal desire to protect her son Shinji makes unit 01 more willing to syncronise. Therfore, while I am aware that the power of an Eva is not based souly on its pilot, I still consider the pilot to be a considerable factor in its strength. As for the angels, while they could all hardly be more different (multiple evolutionary routes etc) there is not denying that some are more powerful than others. Presumably since humans are Angels, and considering the angel's agressive relationship with us, and considering that the angels always fight alone, it is reasonable to assume that they may fight each other should they come into contact. Possibly to designate genetic supremecy.

[MagicianCamille]

My mom would make the sweetest eva soul ever. With me piloting, we'd destroy all other evas.... NERV... and then... TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!!! :devil:

Momma's boy. :rolleyes:

[Reichu]

As far as I'm aware, Adam's children aren't intended to represent "multiple evolutionary routes", but one collective species of "gods" -- "...another possibility, a race of humans who abandoned human form" -- where the act of 'establishing one's self-image' is taken to the extreme. That is, the bizarre forms they take aren't genetically-determined, based on what we were told in #05 (think 99.89%) and shown in #10 (Sandalphon begins as a humanoid and does a blurry shift into a ... whatever before hatching).

If the thing about humans being Angels confuses you, see here (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=194610).

[felineki]

(Sandalphon begins as a humanoid and does a blurry shift into a ... whatever)
"Anomalocaris/fluke hybrid"?

[DarthMigit]

If the thing about humans being Angels confuses you, see here (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=194610).[/QUOTE]

Actually I have always liked the idea of humans being the 18th Angel. It made an unexpetcted amount of sense, although I have always seen the angels as evolutionary diversions battling it out for supremecy. Perhaps you disagree, but the fact is no one is absolutely sure. That is the beauty of evangelion, so much is left to speculation that the viewer essentially becomes God. i.e you can decide for yourself the origins and fate of the characters and make your own interpretations on what little information is revealed. ;)

[Reichu]

I have always seen the angels as evolutionary diversions battling it out for supremecy.
The "little information" in the show prevents the fulfillment of your God Complex in this case, unfortunately.

[Vaikyuko]

obvously jesus is teh bst eva nd angle at teh smae tmie!

Angel: Probably Iruel or Zeruel. Iruel nearly destroyed them all and ended the series prematurely (damn those MAGI), while Zeruel? Please, EVA-01 had to absorb the pilot and be all "lmfaoberserk" to kill it. Or at least to eat it.

As for EVAs, is this even a contest? It's EVA-01 (who is technically a god), with the nine harpies trailing behind as they're the only other ones with S^2 Engines.

[DarthMigit]

I would say that, discounting it's S2 organ, unit 01 and 02 are fairly evenly matched. Naturally once unit 01 achieves its ultimate form, any fight in which it takes part should have roughly the same outcome as a woodlouse fighting a steam-roller. concening the angels, why has no one even considered the flying monolith that is Ramiel? I would like to see Zeruel come into any kind of range before evaporating, its AT field wasn't that powerful.

[Vaikyuko]

I would say that, discounting it's S2 organ, unit 01 and 02 are fairly evenly matched. Naturally once unit 01 achieves its ultimate form, any fight in which it takes part should have roughly the same outcome as a woodlouse fighting a steam-roller. concening the angels, why has no one even considered the flying monolith that is Ramiel? I would like to see Zeruel come into any kind of range before evaporating, its AT field wasn't that powerful.

Discounting the S^2 is basically saying "okay, let's take away the biggest advantage it has to make it an even fight". It's just not smart to alter anything when it comes to versus fights. People have considered Ramiel, as well, but the problem is, they killed Ramiel with a "conventional" (not really) gun. Zeruel HAD to be killed by EVAs and took out two before it was stopped. Do the math.

[kaos]

I would say that, discounting it's S2 organ, unit 01 and 02 are fairly evenly matched.Even discounting the the S2 organ (which is fair since 01 didn't have it until later in the series), Eva-01 still wins since Eva-01 has a complete soul, while 02 only has part of a soul. And if you discount the soul, then all Eva's would be equal because they wouldn't even be able to move.

[DarthMigit]

And that would be the most dismilly boring fight ever. I suppose that unit 01 would have an advantage, even if unit 02 had a complete soul, as it is an experimental model that has proven its superiority in combat over the standard production model. Hm, I suppose my initial proposition was pretty stupid then eh? However, I would like to note concerning Ramiel that it couldn't be defeated by an Eva and NERV had no choice other than to rely on additional weaponry. :P

[Ornette]

Even discounting the the S2 organ (which is fair since 01 didn't have it until later in the series), Eva-01 still wins since Eva-01 has a complete soul, while 02 only has part of a soul. And if you discount the soul, then all Eva's would be equal because they wouldn't even be able to move.
Really? I had always thought the rest of Kyoko's soul was put in after she hung herself. Thus, the interaction between Asuka and her mother's soul in EoE.

As for Eva-01 and Eva-02, Yui wanted to become one with the Eva, Kyoko didn't.

[DarthMigit]

Goddamnit you are absolutely correct! My appologies :naughty:. However my previous covictions still stand:

1. Eva unit 01 made from Lillith, not Adam, experimental, kicks ***.

2. Ramiel is the most powerful Angel and that's all there is too it.

[Vaikyuko]

And that would be the most dismilly boring fight ever. I suppose that unit 01 would have an advantage, even if unit 02 had a complete soul, as it is an experimental model that has proven its superiority in combat over the standard production model. Hm, I suppose my initial proposition was pretty stupid then eh? However, I would like to note concerning Ramiel that it couldn't be defeated by an Eva and NERV had no choice other than to rely on additional weaponry. :P

What? Did you watch EoE? Just because Asuka rips through the harpies doesn't mean she "won" - she does get ripped apart herself. By whom? Oh yeah, the standard production model that EVA-02 is supposed to be better than. Might want to rethink the flawed logic, buddy.

[Hekym]

.... I think he meant that EVA-01 is superior to EVA-00, which is an easy call. But EVA-02 is supposed to be better designed, though. And I don't think Shinji could hold his ground against the harpies for quite so long. Asuka is definitely the "toughest" pilot.

Most powerful angel? I was gonna say Iruel, but I think the Lilim are. Messengers of death maybe.... but life too, I guess.

[drgenestarwind]

I'm inclined to believe Zeurel was the most powerful fighting angel, Ramiel was the most powerful defending angel, and Ariel, Arimisel, and Tabris were the best going against the pilots' minds. Yui- the uber b**** in control of Unit-01 IMO is the most powerful.

[mr_random]

As far as Evas go, I always thought Unit 02 was the best at the combat role for which the Evas were designed, probably mostly due to the pilot though. Getting out of traditional fight situations where "details" like having an S^2 engine or having a complete soul makes a difference and the answer should be obvious.

Angle choices are harder to compare, the better candidates seem to be out there already. But I think my pick for the weakest is Matariel.

[DarthMigit]

What? Did you watch EoE? Just because Asuka rips through the harpies doesn't mean she "won" - she does get ripped apart herself. By whom? Oh yeah, the standard production model that EVA-02 is supposed to be better than. Might want to rethink the flawed logic, buddy.

Actually I meant exactly what I said because unit 02 IS a production model. And I think you will find that the MASS PRODUCTION MODELS (harpies) are technically superior to unit 02 (S2 organ, flight capable). However they have fake souls and a fake pilot, hence they suck. :P

[DarthMigit]

Actually I meant exactly what I said because unit 02 IS a production model. And I think you will find that the MASS PRODUCTION MODELS (harpies) are technically superior to unit 02 (S2 organ, flight capable). However they have fake souls and a fake pilot, hence they suck. :P

Oh and to expand further, they were defeated, but revived by their S2 organs, hence were saved by their technical superiority.

[Vaikyuko]

First off, I'm aware. Second, the harpies don't have "fake souls", otherwise they wouldn't be able to work. I do see where the fake pilot logic comes from, though. Also, they technically weren't defeated. Unless you kill something all the way through, and it cannot ever get up again, it still has the ability to come back and bite you in the butt anytime - ergo, it has not been defeated. Asuka, by not disabling the harpies' cores (out of sheer loss of mental cohesion or something else - I do believe she became aware EVAs had cores), was leaving her opponents wounded but not defeated or disabled. And to be honest, I'm not sure it really is the S^2s that saved the harpies from deactivation, as the core is the only thing that need remain intact for an EVA to function (hence why EVA-01 ripped straight through 03 to disable her core).

Dammit, I need Reichu to come and argue this crap.

[DarthMigit]

I am not so sure Asuka was aware the Evas possesed cores. She never actually sees them with the cores exposed, and was probobly the least informed pilot. However, she crushed the core of the final harpie and it still reactivated. How else can this be explained other than the S2 organ reactivating the unit? Also Ibuki refers to the downed harpies as the "destroyed eva series units" implying that as far as her scanners were aware, the units had gone silent. Unfortunately Reichu is busy, I agree he is one well informed fan.

[DarthMigit]

My mistake, SHE is one well informed fan. Sorry about that

[Tidusauron12]

Those the S2 engine always have to be a giant red ball? I mean some angels... didn't have the physical make up to be able to have a S2 engine of that status. (A big red ball.)

[TS-Scorpio]

The core, or "red ball" =/= S2 engine

[Tidusauron12]

OK! But what about the angel that tried to take over the MAGI and self destruct NERV? Where was it's s2 engine? Did it have a core? I thought it was just a bunch of Micromachines... did each little machine have a S2 engine?

[DarthMigit]

THE CORE AND THE S2 ORGAN ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!. The red ball is the core which contains the Angel's/Eva'2 soul, the S2 organ is never actually shown but I assume it simply resembles a bodily organ. And like all the Angels, Iruel possesed a core and an S2 organ, presumably each of the nano-machines which encompassed its body possessed a microscopic core and S2 organ.

[Tidusauron12]

THE CORE AND THE S2 ORGAN ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!. The red ball is the core which contains the Angel's/Eva'2 soul, the S2 organ is never actually shown but I assume it simply resembles a bodily organ. And like all the Angels, Iruel possesed a core and an S2 organ, presumably each of the nano-machines which encompassed its body possessed a microscopic core and S2 organ.

Oh.... man... I'm really stupid...

[DarthMigit]

Don't worry, it's a common misconception.