Yet another EoE Questions Thread [Archive]

Blader5489

July 30th, 2006, 03:28 PM

- Gendo says: "The only way I'll be able to see my Yui again is through the forbidden fusion of Adam and Lilith." My question is, why does he need to fuse them? Why can't Lilith do it on her own?

Speculation: On her own, Lilith can't do much of anything but guide the process of 3I. Gendo wants that power, but he also wants the power of a god (Adam) as well. So his goal is to fuse himself with the two of them, so that Gendo has both godlike power and control over 3I.

- If the Harpy Evas have S2 engines, why do they need Eva-01?

Because they need ten Evas with S2 engines in order to make the Tree of Sephiroth (SEELE had three more Evas that weren't built in time for 3I).

- Fuyutski says that Seele wants to use Eva-01 as a medium. What does he mean by medium?

I'm starting to think that "medium" in EoE refers to all of the Evas, and not just Eva-01. SEELE wants to create the Tree of Sephiroth in the sky, so they use Yui and the Eva series to do so. In this case, the Evas are acting as mediums because they're enacting SEELE's will.

- Why is Seele so dead set on the "destruction of the ego of the pilot of Eva-01"? How will that help "complete" humanity?

At this point, SEELE realizes that the fate of 3I rests in Shinji's hands (i.e. he can continue it or stop it). If Shinji's ego is obliterated, then the rest of humanity will follow suit, which is what SEELE wants.

Hekym

July 30th, 2006, 04:22 PM

I'm sure it could. Just put yourslef in Anno's mindset. It is just a story afterall.

The sad thing is that his midset was going all over the place along with the production team's, so you have to take that into account too. :)

Reichu

July 30th, 2006, 10:42 PM

I'm starting to think that "medium" in EoE refers to all of the Evas, and not just Eva-01.
The line in question referred only to EVA-01. "In 20th Century Japan..."

@kaos: Some crap on "medium" starting here (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5857014&highlight=medium#post5857014). (And not quite finished with the "medium has something to do with dead Angels" idea, either.)

kaos

July 31st, 2006, 08:45 AM

The line in question referred only to EVA-01. "In 20th Century Japan..."

@kaos: Some crap on "medium" starting here (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5857014&highlight=medium#post5857014). (And not quite finished with the "medium has something to do with dead Angels" idea, either.)So as far as "medium" is concerned:

The thread seems to be saying that Lilith is connected to the space inside the Black Moon. So souls enter through Lilith's palms and then end up in the black moon (the same way Unit-01 entered the shadow-Leliel and wound up in the sphere-Leliel). So Lilith is the medium through which souls enter the Black Moon.

So it would seem that Eva-01 is meant to be another possbile medium of souls. But the question is... how do souls get into her?

Well, remember those eyes that form on her after the SoL wraps itself around Eva-01? I think those represent the the passage of souls because right after that, Shinji starts hallucinating about Asuka and Misato who are both dead. In other words, bodyless souls are going into Eva-01.

So maybe Seele's plan was to have the Harpy-Evas used their AATF to melt everyone, then have Eva-01 would act as a DoG into the Black Moon.

Blader5489

July 31st, 2006, 09:43 AM

So as far as "medium" is concerned:

The thread seems to be saying that Lilith is connected to the space inside the Black Moon. So souls enter through Lilith's palms and then end up in the black moon (the same way Unit-01 entered the shadow-Leliel and wound up in the sphere-Leliel). So Lilith is the medium through which souls enter the Black Moon.

That's my take on it (it would also explain bochan_bird's "well of souls" translation).

So it would seem that Eva-01 is meant to be another possbile medium of souls. But the question is... how do souls get into her?

That may've been why SEELE had the Eva series stigmatize Eva-01, creating "artificial Doors" (as Reichu put it).

Well, remember those eyes that form on her after the SoL wraps itself around Eva-01? I think those represent the the passage of souls because right after that, Shinji starts hallucinating about Asuka and Misato who are both dead. In other words, bodyless souls are going into Eva-01.

I'm pretty sure that whole scene occured in Shinji's mind. He was just talking himself, trying to convince himself that nobody should be alive.

So maybe Seele's plan was to have the Harpy-Evas used their AATF to melt everyone, then have Eva-01 would act as a DoG into the Black Moon.

Well technically, the Evas would simply be using their ATFs so as to resonate with and expand Eva-01's AATF.

Ornette

July 31st, 2006, 09:47 AM

So it would seem that Eva-01 is meant to be another possbile medium of souls. But the question is... how do souls get into her?
Eva-01 was inside GNR at the time the doors opened, right?

So maybe Seele's plan was to have the Harpy-Evas used their AATF to melt everyone, then have Eva-01 would act as a DoG into the Black Moon.
This is probably what they were trying to do. Fuyutsuki said this BEFORE Lilith/Rei came into the picture and AFTER Eva-01 was snagged by the MPEs. Also note that BB translated that line as "SEELE bastards... Do they plan to use EVA-01 as the well of souls!?", immediately proceeding that, Shinji has marks on his palms (DoG?).

Reichu

July 31st, 2006, 10:01 AM

That's my take on it (it would also explain bochan_bird's "well of souls" translation).
He didn't explain the "well of souls" thing, so I'm taking it with a grain of salt ATM. (I need to e-mail him badly.)

I'm pretty sure that whole scene occured in Shinji's mind. He was just talking himself, trying to convince himself that nobody should be alive.
So Shinji magically already knew about Kaji and Misato's week-long sex marathon (which Ritsuko referenced in #21) and was sufficiently informed to see a brief flashback to the #20 boinking session, as well? During this sequence, Misato also refers to her sexual side as a part of herself that Shinji didn't know.

Misato (voice):
I wasn't able to become Shinji's mother after all...

(Kaji's and Misato's college apartment)

Misato:
Mmmm, let's do it.

Kaji:
Again? Aren't you supposed to meet your friend at school today?

Misato:
Hmm? Oh yeah, Ritsuko. It's okay, we still have time...

Kaji:
We've been cooped up here for a week now...

Misato:
Yeah, but I think I'm getting the hang of it... so come on...

(The lovemaking begins and continues in the background)

Misato:
I probably just did this to prove that I existed.

Asuka:
How idiotic! It's just two lonely adults comforting each other.

Ritsuko (precisely):
We want to feel needed, even if it's only physical.

Misato:
I feel wanted, and that makes me happy.

Asuka:
It's just an easy way for you feel that you're worth something.

Shinji (disgusted = thinking):
This is Misato? She does... this?

Misato:
Yes, this is also me... The melting into one another's hearts...
The me that Shinji doesn't know.
Reality does involve pain, but you just have to accept it.

The entire "P3II" sequence is EXTREMELY important exposition for the characters of Misato and Asuka, and their relationships with Shinji. Brushing it off as something Shinji made up is a rather effective way of dismissing so very, very much.

Well technically, the Evas would simply be using their ATFs so as to resonate with and expand Eva-01's AATF.
Where do they mention an AATF from EVA-01...?

Ornette

July 31st, 2006, 10:32 AM

The entire "P3II" sequence is EXTREMELY important exposition for the characters of Misato and Asuka, and their relationships with Shinji. Brushing it off as something Shinji made up is a rather effective way of dismissing so very, very much.
The P3II always seemed to fit with the first few "The Case of XXX" from EoTV. But in EoTV, it says "The instrumentality of mankind begins" before Misato's case (and sex scene). It could be that all the cases were happening at the same time?

Blader5489

July 31st, 2006, 10:59 AM

Eva-01 was inside GNR at the time the doors opened, right?

No, Eva-01 entering GNR was the last thing that occured before Shinji started his discussion with the gods. ;)

He didn't explain the "well of souls" thing, so I'm taking it with a grain of salt ATM. (I need to e-mail him badly.)

I know he didn't explain it, I was just saying that all souls passing through Lilith/Eva-01/GNR (they all fulfill the same role, basically) would explain both the idea of a medium and souls entering into GNR's Doors of Guf.

Though that still doesn't explain the souls that enter the top of the Black Moon...

So Shinji magically already knew about Kaji and Misato's week-long sex marathon (which Ritsuko referenced in #21) and was sufficiently informed to see a brief flashback to the #20 boinking session, as well? During this sequence, Misato also refers to her sexual side as a part of herself that Shinji didn't know.

Good point, I had forgotten about that.

Where do they mention an AATF from EVA-01...?

All of the Evas, including Eva-01, project AATFs that take the shape of the SToL. And when you consider that Eva-01 was meant to substitute for Lilith, she would eventually have to cover the world in an AATF (with the Eva series helping to expand it by resonating their own ATFs).

That would also explain the Eva series surrounding Eva-01 (the symbol is another representation of Creation) right before GNR shows up.

kaos

August 1st, 2006, 01:48 PM

I'm going to throw out a few answers to my own questions here:

Why is Seele so dead set on the "destruction of the ego of the pilot of Eva-01"? How will that help "complete" humanity?If by "ego" they mean "sense of self", then they are probably just saying that by destroying his ego he will be more willing to choose complementation...

Gendo says: "The only way I'll be able to see my Yui again is through the forbidden fusion of Adam and Lilith." My question is, why does he need to fuse them? Why can't Lilith do it on her own?So Lilith will gain an S2? But then how does Lilith regenerate if she doesn't have her own S2?

That's my take on it (it would also explain bochan_bird's "well of souls" translation).Well, if the Tree of Life in 3I is essentially a door INTO the Black Moon, perhaps the inverted version would be ...

Here's another question for Reichu... Way back you mentioned the "black core". I was wondering if you ever ended up revealing your ideas on exactly what this is (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5474644&highlight=black+core#post5474644)?

Blader5489

August 1st, 2006, 02:07 PM

Regarding the "Well of Souls", it seems it's just an alternate name for the Chamber of Guf (like "Hall of Souls"). I'm still trying to figure out what that means when reconciled with everything else, but it does lend credibility to the idea of the CoG being inside Lilith/Eva-01.

If not that, maybe it's just a pocket of space that can be accessed by entering the Black Moon or Lilith.

Reichu

August 1st, 2006, 02:58 PM

Regarding the "Well of Souls", it seems it's just an alternate name for the Chamber of Guf (like "Hall of Souls").
"Well of Souls" and "Hall of Souls" are just things bb inserted into his translation despite the fact that there is no equivalent text in the actual script. Regardless of whether or not his "self-insertions" work, they are "foreign material". So, if yorishiro can mean something like "well of souls", one should find a proper citation for it. (And similarly for anything about the Chamber of Guf.)

If by "ego" they mean "sense of self"...
Correct. From an as-yet unfinished FGC page:

Jiga / 自我
"Ego" or "self". A recurring psychoanalytic reference to Freud's "das Ich" ("the I", subsequently translated into Latin ego, "I") -- which could be, on the most simplified level, described as "sense of self".

Here's another question for Reichu... Way back you mentioned the "black core". I was wondering if you ever ended up revealing your ideas on exactly what this is?
:cries: You had to ask?

As a basic establishment: There are many paralleled phenomena between 2I and 3I. AATFs. Wings of Light. Doors of Guf. Life being "reset", disembodied souls, the environs changing in appearance. Recently unveiled, the Tree of Life. And so on.

Here's some paralleled visuals, which Shin-seiki pointed out a couple years back. (With some aural similarities, too.) Click for bigger.

http://www.evacommentary.org/death/death_C0004_anim_small.gif (http://www.evacommentary.org/death/death_C0004_anim.gif)

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_kaworu-hands_anim_small.gif (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_kaworu-hands_anim.gif)

GNK's giant hands roving towards EVA-01 almost seem like an "extended", uninterrupted version of "the last footage of the Katsuragi Team", in a way.

More in a sec...

Reichu

August 1st, 2006, 04:46 PM

Keeping that in mind...

In the OP and #12, we see Adam, full-on, as the Giant of Light.

http://www.evacommentary.org/op/op_C069_anim.gif

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-15/15_C280A_c_mid.jpg

Both times, she is depicted with black circles for eyes and a dark circle/oval in the core region.

Do we ever see "black eyes" again?

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C132_anim.gif

...How about the "black core"?

After the harpies mutate and EVA-01's core is exposed, she leans backwards and her "glow goes out".

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C149B_tile2.jpg

GNK shows up. After he cups the Eva within his massive palms, we see this:

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C162_b_mid.jpg

The point of the Spear approaches her core as she releases a low moan. (You know what that means.) What else do you notice here...?

(Being continued...)

Reichu

August 1st, 2006, 05:28 PM

They immediately cut away to the bridge. Insert technobabble.

AOBA:
Solenoid graph inverting! Ego barrier weakening!

HYUGA:
A.T. Field shifting to Pattern Red!
And Fuyutsuki's little rant (experimental translation):
The Fruit of Life held by Angels, and the Fruit of Knowledge held by Man.
In acquiring both, Eva Unit-01 became an existence equal to God.
And now she is being returned* to the Tree of Life, the embryo of lives.
Will she become the Ark that saves humanity from the nothingness of Third Impact, or the Devil that destroys them?
The future is in the hands of Ikari's son.

* Apparently, "returned to origins".

Shortly after he begins talking, the camera shifts back to EVA-01, picking up where we left off, with the Spear of Longinus merging into her core. Closeup animation (click for the entire image):

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C164_anim_kernfick_up.gif (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C164_anim_kernfick.gif)

Apparently, there's something dark and round inside her core that shows through the outside as a two-stage gradation. (The gradation is noted in the storyboards.) This is rather weird, as EVA-01 has never exhibited such a nuclear feature before. Also strangely, if you look really closely, the Spear's shadow doesn't fall upon this dark circle as if it were spherical; but when the core closes, the dark circle actually seems to be physical, and flexible.

Two key features of the Giant of Light recur in EoE: The glowing, when the Eva Series "release" their S2 Engines, and the strange black eyes, seen on Lilith when she first awakens. Is what's happening to EVA-01's core a direct correlate to the state of Adam's? If the dark circle is supposed to be her core, and nothing more, then...

http://www.evacommentary.org/op/op_C069_anim.gif
...not only is it MUCH smaller than Adam's bastard daughters would lead us to expect...

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-15/15_C280A_c_mid.jpg
...it's, erm... yeah. (And, of the two GoLs, this one is much more anatomically plausible.)

Perhaps it's time to at least reconsider what these dark core-things are.

(Little more coming up...)

Reichu

August 1st, 2006, 07:47 PM

During the events leading to Second Impact, we hear one of the Katsuragi Team members say this:

Woman D "Begin thermal dampening treatment as soon as the Doors of Guf open."
No idea what the first part is supposed to mean -- but they're anticipating the opening of Adam's Doors. Following Lilith's precedent, these would be expected to manifest as "stigmata" on Adam's palms.

The last thing we see in that cut is this:

http://www.evacommentary.org/death/death_C0004_anim_small.gif (http://www.evacommentary.org/death/death_C0004_anim.gif)

The explosion seems to be connected to this unusual 'dome' that forms over the South Pole:

http://www.evacommentary.org/death/death_C0005_c_mid.jpg

After this, Adam as the GoL is glimpsed. (See earlier.) Then, the moment after Dr. K collapses, KABOOM! BIG WINGS!

http://www.evacommentary.org/death/death_C0015_anim_small.gif (http://www.evacommentary.org/death/death_C0015_anim.gif)
(click for bigger)

...with an inverted ToL apparently flying away from the epicenter:

http://www.evacommentary.org//death/death_C0015_a_mid.jpg

(The first frame of C-0015 isn't in the ani-gif since, two frames after a cut change, the screen jolts to the right, and I felt too lazy to employ my usual get-arounds. Maybe I'll tweak it later. :P )

(More...)

Reichu

August 1st, 2006, 07:55 PM

According to #12, the "dome" is still there after the wings spread:

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-12/12_C013B_mid.jpg

But, fifteen years later, the South Pole looks like this from orbit:

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-07/07_C079_col-disc_mid.jpg (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-07/07_C079_col-disc.jpg)

I'll let you people think about that one, since I don't wanna.

So... At any rate. To get back on track, some points:

Opening of Adam's Doors is prognosticated by Katsuragi Team; when it happens is unknown.
Shortly after the above forecast, we *do* get closeups of Adam's hands roving across the screen.
After formation of "dome", Adam is seen with "black core".
Tree of Life flies away from the epicenter of the explosion.

Back to Yui in the Sky... momentarily.

Reichu

August 1st, 2006, 09:28 PM

Soon after her ascent, Yui is "crucified" by the Eva Series:

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C046_i_mid.jpg (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C045,046_anim.gif)
(click for ani-gif)

Earlier, I suggested that the stigmata were created to serve as Doors of Guf, as part of EVA-01's yorishiro function. Now, you boys have been good and dutiful, and reminded my naughty brain that the events unfolding are Seele operating as if THIS was gonna be it -- so a number of things troubling me have made a bit more sense as a result. The harpies' apparently uneventful AATF, for example. And you've come up with a take on my Stigmata=Doors idea that fits the context much better (far as I can see). http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/thumbsup.gif

According to this premise that the medium function and the stigmata are connected, EVA-01's planned role (in Seele's eyes) was supplanted by Lilith -- in, I believe you've suggested, this manner:

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C372_b_mid.jpg (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C372_anim.gif)

So, did Yui get holes punched through her hands for nothing? Let's go back to this scene:

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_kaworu-hands_anim_small.gif (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_kaworu-hands_anim.gif)

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C162_b_mid.jpg

One question that has not been seriously addressed, IMO, is "Just what the hell is GNK actually doing?" This isn't just a giant Kaworu -- it's Adam, appearing in the (ghostly white) image of her dead Lilim persona. The part of this scene that most people see is the brief interplay between Kaworu (GNK Edition) and Shinji. (And, even then...) But isn't something also happening between Adam and Shinji's mom, on another level entirely?

kaos

August 1st, 2006, 09:47 PM

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C164_anim_kernfick_up.gif (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C164_anim_kernfick.gif)

Apparently, there's something dark and round inside her core that shows through the outside as a two-stage gradation. (The gradation is noted in the storyboards.) This is rather weird, as EVA-01 has never exhibited such a nuclear feature before. Also strangely, if you look really closely, the Spear's shadow doesn't fall upon this dark circle as if it were spherical; but when the core closes, the dark circle actually seems to be physical, and flexible. That is an awesome clip. :thumbsup:

Is it just me or does that black core look like it's actually reaching out for the spear just before it closes.

Is this supposed to correlate to the "It's sinking in" part from 2I?

Reichu

August 1st, 2006, 10:00 PM

(I'll be addressing GNK as "Adam" for the following, so don't jump and snap if you see a "she".)

Aside from how strange the Giant Naked Dyad is, in and of itself...

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C157_a_mid.jpg

...doesn't anything else here strike you as being a bit... odd?

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C157_anim_pocketses.gif

Nya?!?

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C156_mid.jpg

"You've been hiding something in those all along, Kaworu-kun?"

And another curiosity: Once Adam begins the "sweep", her hands take up a rather strange gesture.

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C157_e_crop.jpg

And that's not something these eyes forget.

Reichu

August 1st, 2006, 10:33 PM

While Yui is being "wrung" by the Spear, not only do they draw attention to her palms, and the gaping holes marking their centers...

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C166_anim_hand.gif

...but there's that gesticulation again.

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C166_2tile_gesture.jpg

Are they trying to link Adam and Yui hand-to-hand here?

Recall the things I highlighted from the 2I ensemble. And here in the 3I one, we revisit the cut of Adam's "roving hands" -- but, in this case, they emerge from the sides of her hips (?!?) and their target is EVA-01. We have a variation on "black core". We have stigmata (Doors of Guf?) and emphasis upon them. The scene ends with EVA-01 "returning" (or whatever) to the Tree of Life (which last existed on 2I, apparently), with the "aid" of the Spear.

Considering what we've learned about hands in NGE... Is it possible that something 'passed between' Adam and Yui, off-camera? And is that dark form within Yui's core something we have, in fact, known about all this time, but not matched up to any visuals -- even the ones right under our very noses? (Something, say, intimately connected to the palms?)

Phew. Let's see what you guys make of all that. ;)

That is an awesome clip.
Thanks. Much suffering went into the preparation of all these visuals.

Is it just me or does that black core look like it's actually reaching out for the spear just before it closes.
Now that you mention it, I guess it kinda does. (Actually, the way the black form suddenly jumps forward right before the core closes kind of bothers me somehow. ^_^; )

Is this supposed to correlate to the "It's sinking in" part from 2I?
Dunno. I'm having a hard time getting my head around the idea that it "sank into" Adam, anyway, since the ToL is "up there", and the Wings of Light are "down there", and Adam already has the requirements of blowing up and becoming an egg (however that works) to satisfy, let alone becoming a Tree. Not to mention that the Spear was "sinking in" around 00:33, and Adam didn't even start walking until ~ 01:00. </inarticulate>

Well, there *are*, at least, those fifteen* unborn individuals whose involvement in 2I remains largely unaccounted for.

* Israfel counts as two.

Ornette

August 1st, 2006, 10:55 PM

Let me interject really quickly with something:
According to this premise that the medium function and the stigmata are connected, EVA-01's planned role (in Seele's eyes) was supplanted by Lilith -- in, I believe you've suggested, this manner:
Given such a premise, could it be the same purpose that Lilith was always seen with nails through her hands? To allow them to open for the purposes of instrumentality (the stigmata)? Forgive me if this was already stated (or implied), had very little time to lurk forums over this last month.

BTW, an awesome exposition.

TS-Scorpio

August 2nd, 2006, 04:20 AM

I REALLY don't see a black core anywhere personally. I doesn't seem relevant enough for it to mean anything either.

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C164_anim_kernfick_up.gif (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C164_anim_kernfick.gif)

I'd have thought it would have a dark spot/shadow especially considering that a part of the core is indeed inside EVA-01. And it seems to be "moving towards the lance" because of the way the core is opening a closing, effecting its shadow.

http://www.evacommentary.org/op/op_C069_anim.gif

Here, the core may very well be just a normal core, but because of the lighting (and the fact that Adam is just a big massive light source) it makes all of her features appear darker. Plus, it gives a really good visual effect making her look brighter than she really is.

And we need to photoshop some headphones onto her head in this picture.

Tidusauron12

August 2nd, 2006, 07:23 AM

Which angel did Yui obtain the S2 engine from? I can't remember... maybe... I don't know...

Reichu

August 2nd, 2006, 07:48 AM

I REALLY don't see a black core anywhere personally.
"Black core" is an informal way to refer to it. I'm more or less suggesting that this unusual "dark roundness" associated with Yui's core is not something that's normally there, but has temporarily manifested itself under the current bizarre circumstances. The glow of her core going out may mark its "arrival".

In Adam's case, that the core would not be glowing along with the rest of her (save the eyes) seems rather counterintuitive, considering that this sphere is bioluminescent by its very nature. If it's dark to set it off from the rest of the body, then they've made some rather strange choices about the size/shape (see earlier).

EVA-01's unusual core seems to be dismissed quite easily -- but I really do think that this is potentially rather important and wasn't included for no reason. That the "red to red-violet gradation" is noted at the storyboard stage -- which is extraordinarily scrimpy on details -- is another alert that this is something "special".

And we need to photoshop some headphones onto her head in this picture.
Slowed it down a little.

Which angel did Yui obtain the S2 engine from?
Zeruel (the one with toilet paper for arms).

felineki

August 2nd, 2006, 10:57 AM

http://home.mchsi.com/~mbiddinger/adamlol.gif
(Please forgive me, I couldn't resist... I'll see about adding in the headphones later :P )

Mr. Tines

August 2nd, 2006, 11:14 AM

I REALLY don't see a black core anywhere personally.

Nor I; in motion, it looks more like blackness at the back of the core, seeing through the red transparency into an unlit void beyond; a hole into which the core is fitted as if into a shallow socket.

Blader5489

August 2nd, 2006, 12:16 PM

...doesn't anything else here strike you as being a bit... odd?

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C157_anim_pocketses.gif

Nya?!?

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C156_mid.jpg

"You've been hiding something in those all along, Kaworu-kun?"

I really don't think that can be taken as evidence of Adam/Kaworu being female (a fan theory that, apart from Dr. Katsuragi's connection to Kaworu, I've always had a huge problem with).

Also, here are some citations regarding my earlier post on the Chamber of Guf and it's alternate things. Since this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_of_Souls) leads to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_guf), and the latter has a link for "Hall of Souls" that leads back to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_of_Souls), I've come to this conclusion:

Well of Souls = Hall of Souls = Chamber of Guf

Reichu

August 2nd, 2006, 02:12 PM

I really don't think that can be taken as evidence of Adam/Kaworu being female (a fan theory that, apart from Dr. Katsuragi's connection to Kaworu, I've always had a huge problem with).
-_-; What gave you the impression that I was advocating f-K here? If the purpose of the animated GIF slipped past you, look at the file name. (I thought it was something that would speak for itself...)

@Others: I did not literally mean that a black core is inside the main one. The term was being used loosely to refer to a theoretical condition where something round and dark manifests within that is visible from outside.

Blader5489

August 2nd, 2006, 06:02 PM

-_-; What gave you the impression that I was advocating f-K here? If the purpose of the animated GIF slipped past you, look at the file name. (I thought it was something that would speak for itself...)

My bad. *sweat drop*

Back on-topic, Reichu are you suggesting that the 'black core' is supposed to represent the Chamber of Guf?
Also (whether or not black core = Guf), could the Black Moon be considered Lilith's 'black core'?

One more thing to add: in regards to the black eyes that Adam and Lilith share, I thought I should point out that Yui has black eyes as well (after being stigmatized and lifted into the air).

Reichu

August 2nd, 2006, 06:19 PM

Back on-topic, Reichu are you suggesting that the 'black core' is supposed to represent the Chamber of Guf?
DING-DING-DING!!!

Also (whether or not black core = Guf), could the Black Moon be considered Lilith's 'black core'?
I'll have to get back to you on that one, but I leave you free to play. ;)

One more thing to add: in regards to the black eyes that Adam and Lilith share, I thought I should point out that Yui has black eyes as well (after being stigmatized and lifted into the air).
If you're referring to the "eyes going out", that's nothing unusual; the motif of the stylized eye slits "turning on" and "off" is present throughout the show.

I personally thought of the "black eyes" as Adam and Lilith's answer to the Evas' swollen, glowing-white eyeballs: "intense mode". In the same vein ('inversion'), the Seeds are associated with extreme paleness, while the Evas are a bunch of darkies.

EDIT:

Also, here are some citations regarding my earlier post on the Chamber of Guf and it's alternate things. Since this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_of_Souls) leads to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_guf), and the latter has a link for "Hall of Souls" that leads back to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_of_Souls), I've come to this conclusion:

Well of Souls = Hall of Souls = Chamber of Guf

My own inclination would be to dig deeper than Wikipedia -- it's not a very good thing to draw conclusions from. Investigating yorishiro more thoroughly could provide some interesting results, as well. (There are some Japanese Google sweeps I want to make, too...)

kaos

August 2nd, 2006, 06:57 PM

Also (whether or not black core = Guf), could the Black Moon be considered Lilith's 'black core'? If so, what would that make the White Moon?

Reichu

August 2nd, 2006, 07:14 PM

If so, what would that make the White Moon?
Isn't this a trick question? :P

kaos

August 3rd, 2006, 07:21 AM

Isn't this a trick question?I didn't intend it to be... Or maybe I did??? :huh: Either way, this was basically what I had in mind:

KAMI: ........ GUF:
Eva-01 ...... Black Core
Lilith ......... Black Moon
Adam ........ Black Core
???? .......... White Moon

Reichu

August 4th, 2006, 06:08 PM

Reichu: ML members... they believe too much in their own ideas.
Aaron: Self-flattery?
Reichu: They are too obsessive... That type will never be able to accurately understand reality.
Aaron: Yet people like that seek the truth... How ironic.
Reichu: They are not so noble... Discovery is joy, and understanding leads to domination. All they seek after is their own aggrandizement.
Totally off-topic, but I just noticed this... Buh?

On-topic, I'm not quite sure how to address your question, kaos, since the Black Moon is still something I'm full of questions about. Sticking to the basics of the Guf and the Moons, on their own, first seems more approachable.

There is that cryptic stuff that Ritsuko mentions about the Chamber of Guf in #23.

The Evas do not intrinsically have souls, but human souls reside within them.
They were all salvaged.
The only vessel that contained a soul was Rei.
She was the only one born with a soul.
The Chamber of Guf had been emptied.
The Rei-like things here have no souls.
They're just vessels.

I'm not sure how Ritsuko makes the jump from Rei clones to Adam to Evas to Rei and finally back to Rei clones. (In the full rant.) But one idea I had about the Rei part is that the Chamber of Guf is dependent upon Lilith's soul, and it being present within its rightful body. If my idea about the 'black core' being the Guf manifesting itself is on track, that might mean that the Guf is, in a sense, metabiologically attached to a "curatress", which is why it's manifesting in Adam and Yui's cores -- that's where their souls are.

I've speculated that, at 2I, Adam's Doors open to release souls for her children (unhatched eggs lying around somewhere, close by?), thus "awakening them" and allowing their hatchings 15 years later. The darkness associated with her core is then a sign of an "active Guf", at a time that souls in her care are finally put to use. (It's impossible to say how long the Guf actively manifests, tho.)

Why the hands would be in-doors and out-doors for some dark quantum pocket-space (I actually proposed this a little while back without explaining the idea; don't feel like reposting it ATM) in the core is a little odd. For whatever reason, I'm reminded of the way that the hands are used as focal points for certain kinds of ATF Magic. For example, when Yui pulls Sachiel's field apart like curtains, and Zero does similarly with Sahaquiel; Yui "throws" her ATF at Zeruel and slices through his arms, his barrier, and then rips up his body; and Kyoko "catching" the VTOLs in a cast of her ATF and them exploding. Of course, the ATF itself originates from the soul, which is inside the core. Could it be something similar with the Guf and its "Doors"?

Reichu

August 4th, 2006, 06:27 PM

As for why Yui's Guf is manifesting (according to speculation, mind) when Adam pulls her hands out of her "pockets" and reaches for her, to be "returned" to the ToL right after... Well, I was hoping that I'd set enough items on the table earlier for ya'll to arrive at the possible implications.

Lilith... The Chamber of Guf emptying... Well, the original CoG and what Judaic lore says about the origin of souls might have some relevance, since NGE does enjoy playing around with the ideas. Some excerpts from Tree of Souls (a ~500-page book that's basically a massive collection of this stuff, with references up the wazoo; so much fun).

TREE OF SOULS

God has a tree of flowering souls in Paradise. ... From this tree blossom forth all souls... And from the roots of this tree sprout the souls of all the righteous ones whose names are inscribed there. When the souls grow ripe, they descend into the Treasury of Souls, where they are stored until they are called upon to be born. From this we learn that all souls are the fruit of the Holy One, blessed be He.

This Tree of Souls produces all the souls that have ever existed, or will ever exist. And when the last soul descends, the world as we know it will come to an end.

Comments: Rabbinic and kabbalistic texts speculate that the origin of souls is somewhere in heaven. This myth provides the heavenly origin of souls, and in itself fuses many traditions. First, it develops themes based on the biblical account of the Garden of Eden. It also builds on the tradition that just as there is an earthly Garden of Eden, so is there a heavenly one... Just as there is a Tree of Life in the earthly garden, so there is a Tree of Life in the heavenly one.

As for the Tree of Life in Paradise, its blossoms are souls. It produces new souls, which ripen, and then fall from the tree into the Guf, the Treasury of Souls in Paradise. ...

The core text of this myth comes from Ha-Nefesh ha-Hakhamah by Moshe de Leon... It is possible that de Leon symbolically identified the Tree of Souls with the kabbalistic "tree" of the ten sefirot. Tikkunei Zohar also speaks of the ten sefirot blossoming and flying forth souls.

Reichu

August 4th, 2006, 07:28 PM

THE TREASURY OF SOULS

The souls of all those who have yet been born are kept in the Guf, the Treasury of Souls, also known as the Chamber of Creation. There each soul waits for its turn to be born. ... As soon as the soul leaves the Guf, it divests itself of its heavenly garment, and is clothed in a garment of flesh and blood.

... When the time comes for a soul to leave this world, the Angel of Death strips off the worldly garment, and at the same instant the soul is clothed in the holy garment that was stripped away when it descended to this world. Then the soul delights in having been stripped of its worldly body and in having its original garment restored. And the souls who have departed from their earthly bodies return to that same treasury, and fly before the Throne of Glory in the presence of God. And when the time comes for a human to be born, the angel Gabriel puts his hand into the Treasury of Souls and takes out the first soul that comes into his hand. If the person is fortunate, a great soul comes into his hand; if not a spark of a soul inhabits the body.

... There are those who says that the Guf contains an infinite number of souls, while others insist there is only a finite number of souls in it, and that the Messiah will not come until the Guf has been emptied of every soul. ...

And when the last soul has descended and the Guf is empty, the first infant to be born without a soul, born dead as such an infant must be, will herald the death of the world and so is called the final sign. Then ... the world, as we know it, will end, and the End of Days will begin.

Also, Lilith/Rei in the show can be intimately associated with the kabbalistic version of Shekinah (female aspect of God, and the bridge between God and the earthly realm). In my overanalytical way, I was amused here by a note, "...Rabbi Moshe describes the soul as a spiritual light that emanates from the Shekinah." There was something else I read in one of my books with regard to Shekinah that reminded me of NGE, but I can't find it right now.

Anyway. The idea of the Lilith's Guf in NGE needing to provide a soul for every human being that's born doesn't seem to work very well, since in the original version God had a bunch of Angels who would take care of the whole "getting souls to embryos" part. Who the heck knows how it works. Since souls in NGE are living things, maybe they can reproduce, and once Lilith got the initial batch of human souls out there they could handle matters from there. Mayhaps "metabiological genetics" is one of the factors in Eva-Pilot Mother-Child stuff. </blatant speculation>

Oh, right. So I figure that we let NGE tell us what parts of the myth are used, not have the myth tell us how NGE works. Suppose that the Guf is indeed some kind of pocket space, a reservoir if you will, containing unborn souls, and it is attached to a curatress-soul. Under certain circumstances, the Guf manifests in the world-as-we-know-it as a blackish thing, and souls are released from the Chamber into the world through the palms for some cryptic reason. Under other circumstances, souls can go back into the/a Guf through the Doors. (If a soul wants to be REborn, say.)

When Ritsuko said that the Evas do not intrinsically have souls, I've guessed that maybe she is referring to something about their innate nature as Adam-based life. Under the raw speculation that Adam birthed the Apostles (as eggs) before she was speared, and only gave them souls in 1999, that means that they, well, intrinsically lack souls. If this is just the way they are, I suppose it would go to follow that the Evas would be the same way. Since their bodies don't depend on souls to exist, they can all get away with it.

But with Lilim made out of LCL stuff, the same doesn't seem to apply. If your body can't exist without a soul (...how does that work with dismemberment?), or some such thing, the soul needs to come first, and the body follows.

Reichu

August 4th, 2006, 08:24 PM

That would sorta mean that the soulless child marking the end of the world cannot so much as be BORN in the NGE world, since it would be, in theory, impossible. Maybe the Chamber of Guf being emptied means something completely different here.

Suppose...

Lilim can provide souls for their offspring, as Lilim, by their very nature, are meant to come into existence ('be born') with them. Adam's children (natural and artificial) do not, and they are given souls after the fact: by Adam herself (#03 ~ #16), or salvaged in artificially (Tabris with Adam's, and then Adam's back into Adam; Lilim into Evas). Under the premise that EVA-01 is simply a regular Eva "fashioned from Lilith's flesh", the surrogate daughter theory, her intrinsic lack of soul is accounted for in the same way, and she would not be expected to come out of Lilith already having one. (But if you don't like that bit of fanwank, what I'm writing right now isn't any better.)

So what about Rei? One theory for Rei's origin is that Rei 1 was an incidental creation, what Gendo got instead of Yui when he attempted to pull of a salvage op. Yui didn't budge from EVA-01 and allow her old body to be reconstructed from the juice in the entry plug, nosirree. "Dear, you just don't understand. I can't do that. I want to live and make sure that everyone else doesn't die, and that's why I'm staying here. Fuyutsuki-sensei, why haven't you told that silly man yet?" Perhaps, instead, Lilith's soul was somehow channeled out of her body -- made possible by the fact that EVA-01 and Lilith were connected at the time -- by Gendo-tachi's efforts and put into a brand-spankin' new Yui facsimile. And this is why "Rei was the only one born with a soul", implicitly referring to Rei 1.

Then, there is a lot of stuff yet unexplained with this take, like the stuff about Rei being born in that room. If she was born with a soul inside EVA-01's entry plug, how could that decrepit room also be the room where she was born?

I forget where I was going with this.

Tidusauron12

August 4th, 2006, 08:28 PM

and then Adam's back into Adam;
.

You always lose me here...

Reichu

August 4th, 2006, 08:37 PM

You always lose me here...
You would need to elaborate.

Blader5489

August 6th, 2006, 06:55 PM

Totally off-topic, but I just noticed this... Buh?

Heh... I got that from here (http://eva.onegeek.org/pipermail/evangelion/2006-July/003490.html). It doesn't seem like bochan_bird's an advocate of the "partial soul theory" and expressed that through a parody (kind of) of the #21' script.

But it made me laugh. ;)

On-topic, I'm not quite sure how to address your question, kaos, since the Black Moon is still something I'm full of questions about. Sticking to the basics of the Guf and the Moons, on their own, first seems more approachable.

Personally, I'm leaning towards the idea of the sphere inside GNR (the one that all the Reis swim towards) as to being Lilith's CoG. The Black Moon alone being the Chamber of Guf doesn't make much sense, especially since Fuyutsuki only says that the CoG is unsealed after Lilith spreads her wings, not after the Black Moon is ripped from the Earth.

I'm not sure how Ritsuko makes the jump from Rei clones to Adam to Evas to Rei and finally back to Rei clones. (In the full rant.)

Her rant is, basically, on the nature of 'living' things that don't have souls at birth (which is exactly what Rei is - part of the reason why Ritsuko hates her). Both the Evas and Reis are similar in this regard, in that they are created without initially having souls (this is because the Chamber of Guf is empty - there weren't any unborn souls left to give to the Evas or Reis). As a result, both the Evas and Reis have to live off salvaged souls.

Why the hands would be in-doors and out-doors for some dark quantum pocket-space (I actually proposed this a little while back without explaining the idea; don't feel like reposting it ATM) in the core is a little odd. For whatever reason, I'm reminded of the way that the hands are used as focal points for certain kinds of ATF Magic. For example, when Yui pulls Sachiel's field apart like curtains, and Zero does similarly with Sahaquiel; Yui "throws" her ATF at Zeruel and slices through his arms, his barrier, and then rips up his body; and Kyoko "catching" the VTOLs in a cast of her ATF and them exploding. Of course, the ATF itself originates from the soul, which is inside the core. Could it be something similar with the Guf and its "Doors"?

Personally, I don't think the idea of the Doors being on Adam/Lilith's hands is worth heavy duty analysis. Hands are essentially Anno's trademark as a director, and only are used to associate certain scenes with others (for the purpose of parallelism, irony, etc).

So what about Rei? One theory for Rei's origin is that Rei 1 was an incidental creation, what Gendo got instead of Yui when he attempted to pull of a salvage op. Yui didn't budge from EVA-01 and allow her old body to be reconstructed from the juice in the entry plug, nosirree. "Dear, you just don't understand. I can't do that. I want to live and make sure that everyone else doesn't die, and that's why I'm staying here. Fuyutsuki-sensei, why haven't you told that silly man yet?" Perhaps, instead, Lilith's soul was somehow channeled out of her body -- made possible by the fact that EVA-01 and Lilith were connected at the time -- by Gendo-tachi's efforts and put into a brand-spankin' new Yui facsimile. And this is why "Rei was the only one born with a soul", implicitly referring to Rei 1.

That's what I think. Part of Naoko and Ritusko's jealousy towards Rei is that she's just another human (albeit, one who looks like Yui) that Gendo seems to favor more. If they knew she contained the soul of humanity's progenitor, they'd probably be less... hateful, towards her.

It was always my idea that Gendo was never made privy to Yui's true and final goal: to create a living monument out of Eva-01 (with Yui as the resident soul). This would explain Gendo's week-long grieving period, as well his determination to be reunited with her, while Yui would rather not see him again (kind of).

So basically, after Yui was swallowed into the Eva's core, they attempted a salvage operation. However, when attempting to rebuild Yui's body, they created Rei instead. More than that, due to the Eva being connected to Lilith (and Yui's own determination to stay in the Eva's core), they extracted Lilith's soul by accident. So the op is deemed a failure (since they didn't rebuild Yui, and got a byproduct of her instead), and only Gendo and Fuyutsuki are aware of what Rei is.

Although that doesn't explain why and how Rei was born in the room in Terminal Dogma. Maybe only an egg, or embryo, of Rei was created in Eva-01's entry plug, and they had it transferred into the aforementioned room where it grew into Rei?

Reichu

August 6th, 2006, 09:02 PM

It doesn't seem like bochan_bird's an advocate of the "partial soul theory" and expressed that through a parody (kind of) of the #21' script.
He doesn't seem to be an advocate of certain other things... Sigh. If they're going to chew me out behind my back, I might as well go and chew them out for chewing me out. (NO PLACE IS REICHU-SAFE!!!)

But it made me laugh. ;)
I didn't get it, really. Why did he use me and Aaron?

And what kind of reputation do I have on the ML, anyway?

Personally, I'm leaning towards the idea of the sphere inside GNR (the one that all the Reis swim towards) as to being Lilith's CoG.
The sphere is called a "dark-red moon" in the script. The image that came to my mind was of it representing Lilith's core, in a way, and all of her myriad incarnations returning to their source. Innumerable naked, human corpses are floating around in this vast space -- what do these represent?

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C378_anim_7frame.gif

The Black Moon alone being the Chamber of Guf doesn't make much sense, especially since Fuyutsuki only says that the CoG is unsealed after Lilith spreads her wings, not after the Black Moon is ripped from the Earth.
I certainly don't think the CoG is something of this world as we know it -- more weird quantum stuff. Pursuing the astrological Black/Dark Moon and the lead with Kether seems like it may yield some helpful tidbits.

Her rant is, basically, on the nature of 'living' things that don't have souls at birth (which is exactly what Rei is - part of the reason why Ritsuko hates her). Both the Evas and Reis are similar in this regard, in that they are created without initially having souls (this is because the Chamber of Guf is empty - there weren't any unborn souls left to give to the Evas or Reis). As a result, both the Evas and Reis have to live off salvaged souls.
If there were no unborn souls to give to the Evas or Rei, that means that the Chamber has been empty since, like, they started putzing around with Evas, and that is quite falsifiable in the show. (There are children younger than their teens in the NGE universe, who would not be able to exist without souls.) Interpreting the lines this way requires strict adherence to the myth-version, and that probably isn't a very good idea.

Personally, I don't think the idea of the Doors being on Adam/Lilith's hands is worth heavy duty analysis.
Well.. okay. Forget I said anything.

That's what I think. Part of Naoko and Ritusko's jealousy towards Rei is that she's just another human (albeit, one who looks like Yui) that Gendo seems to favor more. If they knew she contained the soul of humanity's progenitor, they'd probably be less... hateful, towards her.
Are you proposing that Ritsuko doesn't know who Rei is...? http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/lookaround.gif

It was always my idea that Gendo was never made privy to Yui's true and final goal: to create a living monument out of Eva-01 (with Yui as the resident soul).
What is a "living monument" supposed to be? Evolving Eva into a Seed seems to make considerably more sense when all is considered. Do you REALLY turn yourself into an uber-being, take the Spear of Longinus, and float off into space in order to do... nothing at all?

This would explain Gendo's week-long grieving period, as well his determination to be reunited with her, while Yui would rather not see him again (kind of).
Then why does she go with Kaworu and Rei to Heaven's Door, have a brief chat with him, and leave only his lower half behind? (...and at the end of EoTV, Yui and Gendo are shown standing together.)

More than that, due to the Eva being connected to Lilith (and Yui's own determination to stay in the Eva's core), they extracted Lilith's soul by accident.
But one wonders how Lilith's soul could be extracted by accident -- wouldn't Lilith have a desire to be in her own body, as well?

Soluzar

August 6th, 2006, 09:13 PM

He doesn't seem to be an advocate of certain other things... Sigh.He seems a little confused on some issues. He doesn't realise that "Adam is female" and "Koworu is female" are two separate premises. While I support the first, I regard the second as being provably false. Even leaving aside my own beliefs, it's clear that the matter of a female Adam is open to significantly more debate than the matter of a female Kaworu.

Leaving that discussion aside, though, I'm pretty sure you still regard those as being separate matters. It offends me that Bochan regards the "female Adam" theory as yours, though. In truth, it is as much my theory as it is yours, and I was the one to bring everyone's attention to what I regard as proof.

EvaML seems to be opposed to most of the theories that have been put forward on this board over the last couple of years, not to say openly hostile to those theories. I suppose it's nice to have a balance.

Reichu

August 6th, 2006, 09:40 PM

http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/bawl.gif But I like femme-Kaworu!!! She makes me feel all warm and fluffy inside!

But via careful partitioning, I may attempt to maintain some level of professionalism when required. Although this sectioned-off bit of grey matter would inevitably view him as a strange transgender personality.

"Shinji-kun! I am a billions-years-old mother trapped in this horrible, wrong-sexed body! Please, kill me now so that I might legally manifest with a pleasantly androgynous-looking groin later!!!"
"I don't know what the hell you're talking about, Kaworu-kun...!"
"Um, okay, how about this... Kill me, or, uh, my continued existence will destroy all humanity. Yeah."
"Oh crap. I'll have to think about this one."
"Just do it before the battery runs out, okay?" :smile:

Nevermind.

Regarding hostility: Seeing instances where people are talking about me outside of my "territory" in ways that could be nicer often makes me think twice before I do something similar.

Soluzar

August 6th, 2006, 09:54 PM

http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/bawl.gif But I like femme-Kaworu!!! She makes me feel all warm and fluffy inside!
I understand that, and I understand why. I don't see anything wrong with the idea of you liking it, but you're just going to have to accept that you've assumed a position at the forefront of Eva geekery, and whatever you say carries a certain weight. That brings with it responsibilities. If you'd been content to confine mention of such things to threads labelled "fanfic", then perhaps there would not be such a furore about it.

I know perfectly well that you weren't in your ideal frame of mind at the time you mentioned these things for the first time, and you probably feel that it is unfair that things said at a time of weakness are still held against you, but there is a saying of which I am rather fond.

"The bell does not un-ring quite so loudly."

But via careful partitioning, I may attempt to maintain some level of professionalism when required. Although this sectioned-off bit of grey matter would inevitably view him as a strange transgender personality. I understand that this is your position at the present time, and I was pleasantly surprised to see that the "Gender" page of the Commentary includes no mention of F--K. However, your "revelations" will have made a lasting impression on some.

Regarding hostility: Seeing instances where people are talking about me outside of my "territory" in ways that could be nicer often makes me think twice before I do something similar.
Touche.

Reichu

August 6th, 2006, 10:29 PM

but you're just going to have to accept that you've assumed a position at the forefront of Eva geekery, and whatever you say carries a certain weight.
In this case, it carried... er... no weight at all? I know of one person at EMF who somehow came under the impression that f-K was "popular" over here, and I was all, "WTF...?"

If you'd been content to confine mention of such things to threads labelled "fanfic", then perhaps there would not be such a furore about it.
I think confining so much as idle musings to "fanfic" threads would be a bit, erm, con/restrictive. I'm pretty sure it's the way f-K debuted that heated up the irons, and soon after (if not immediately) branded it with its stigma.

I understand that this is your position at the present time, and I was pleasantly surprised to see that the "Gender" page of the Commentary includes no mention of F--K.
The "Gender" page has been totally unedited in eons and I probably need to zap it dead or something. (Or...) Dr. Nick kanchoed even the slightest intimation towards femme-K in the Geektionary. She still gets to nag Asuka in the girls' bathroom, though.

However, your "revelations" will have made a lasting impression on some.
Sad, but true. Not the best lenses to be persistently viewed through.

EDIT: Hmm, you're right. It only just registered with me that bb is, indeed, treating the "Adam = female" and "Kaworu = female" arguments as if they were somehow the same thing. I guess he didn't notice the fact that I called Kaworu "he" in the CI translation, either.

Soluzar

August 6th, 2006, 11:14 PM

Hmm, you're right.By the operation of the law of averages, it has to happen sometimes. :naughty:

It only just registered with me that bb is, indeed, treating the "Adam = female" and "Kaworu = female" arguments as if they were somehow the same thing. I guess he didn't notice the fact that I called Kaworu "he" in the CI translation, either.
It jumped out at me straight away, and I think that one might safely take that as evidence that he doesn't entirely read the theories that he is criticising.

MagicianCamille

August 6th, 2006, 11:33 PM

Hey you guys, stop bypassing the censors! ;)

Reichu

August 7th, 2006, 12:07 PM

Hey you guys, stop bypassing the censors! ;)
Oh, f-K...!

Well, I engaged "M" (bochan_bird no longer exists, apparently) in geek-combat. He put forward a Yin-Yang correlation between Lilith and Adam, ultimately concluding that they're both asexual, and dismisses the literal "mother" meaning of haha (as in "Adam... warera no haha taru sonzai") on the basis that haha can mean many other things, namely a progenitor-organism in more scientific settings. (And thus, his translation is "progenitor".) He also seems to have a rather vehement opposition to what he considers feministic motivators on my part, or some such thing. [But I noted the irrelevance of such to the matter at hand. :cough:ad hominem:cough:other advocates:cough: ] A possible analogy:

"M"/bb : "feminism" :: Dr.Nick : f-K

I was also rather surprised to find that, on the ML, the locals were scoffing at intimations in Chronicle #1 that the S^2 Engine is located in the core. http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/zer_sweatdrop.gif

Man. "Internet. Serious business."

...What were we talking about again?

Soluzar

August 7th, 2006, 12:25 PM

Well, I engaged "M" (bochan_bird no longer exists, apparently) in geek-combat. He put forward a Yin-Yang correlation between Lilith and Adam, ultimately concluding that they're both asexual,I saw. I can't help but feel that there's no actual support for his theory in the anime, and that he simply pulled it out of his arse. Mine being based on actual dialog from an episode seems to place it on rather a more firm footing.
and dismisses the literal "mother" meaning of haha (as in "Adam... warera no haha taru sonzai") on the basis that haha can mean many other things, namely a progenitor-organism in more scientific settings. (And thus, his translation is "progenitor".)
Which ignores Shin-Seiki's excellent principle of analysis, which is to take all things at face value, unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise.
He also seems to have a rather vehement opposition to what he considers feministic motivators on my part, or some such thing. [But I noted the irrelevance of such to the matter at hand. :cough:ad hominemQuite. It's usually a sign of desperation when your opponent resorts to ad hominem tactics. I'm not impressed with "M" at all.
...What were we talking about again?
I forget, and therefore this thread is now about amusing pictures of cats. Please do enjoy ShowerCat.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y15/soluzar/Other/showercat.jpg

Reichu

August 7th, 2006, 12:56 PM

I saw. I can't help but feel that there's no actual support for his theory in the anime, and that he simply pulled it out of his arse.
Fu~. Now, while I'm uneasy with this "talking about people behind their back stuff" (and it's more like "under his nose", since he drops in at ANF periodically), I am interested in what others (who don't feel like joing the EML) think of this. In response to the femme-pronouns in the CI (starting here (http://eva.onegeek.org/pipermail/evangelion/2006-July/003489.html)):

...please, the "her" bit sounds much like undue feminism at all
costs (after having read other stuff by the same person).
For anyone who isn't aware, this is Reichu's "Adam/Kaworu is female" theory, which has garnered a bit of attention (and support) on
various forums.

I have avoided it so far, but since it appears that it will become an
issue with the CI translation (i.e. "the next RCB") and also in the
next manga stage, we might as well deal with it now.

My position is that it is completely without merit.
Reichu's argument is based largely on an incomplete understanding of
a single kanji taken out of context and questionable interpretations
of certain screen shots, and it is also heavily influenced by
Reichu's personal bias which, as EBJ described above, is "undue
feminism at all costs." (She herself has stated that using the male
pronoun "he/him" in the translation of certain passages grates on her
personal philosophy.)

I believe I am familiar with most of the "evidence" for this theory,
and am absolutely confident that I can simply and logically refute
every single one, not to mention building a strong case that Adam/
Kaworu either represents masculine (Yang/Yo) qualities or is at the
very least "gender neutral".
The Yin-Yang stuff:

I expect much angry posting when people read the quite... interesting... backstory for Adam and Lilith. I mean, it kind of makes sense (and even ties back into the original Evangelion proposal a bit) but it does mean that one of the basic assumptions we've had about Adam and Lilith is completely false.
Not angry, but more a bit skeptical because it basically makes the
duality (Ying/Yang (In/Yo)) which is stressed so much in the show a
non-issue, which again just seems wrong.
"In the end, we are all fan-wankers." (What strength flows through my veins since I started using that word on myself!)

Which ignores Shin-Seiki's excellent principle of analysis, which is to take all things at face value, unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise.
That's what I said.

Well, if you like, you can see for yourself here (http://lists.onegeek.org/pipermail/evangelion/2006-August/subject.html).

Quite. It's usually a sign of desperation when your opponent resorts to ad hominem tactics.
WOULD the attack of an idea on such a basis be considered ad hominem? (I've been struggling to use the term correctly for a while.)
I'm not impressed with "M" at all.
First impressions are that he takes himself a bit too seriously. (A mistake anyone can make...)

I'll let Blader restore this thread to on-topicness. Hopefully.

Soluzar

August 7th, 2006, 01:10 PM

WOULD the attack of an idea on such a basis be considered ad hominem? (I've been struggling to use the term correctly for a while.)I tend to think so. The fact that you hold what might be called feminist views does not have any direct bearing on the gender of Adam. Since there is what I would refer to as compelling evidence - Bochan_Bird's brusque dismissal notwithstanding - for this theory, your own "predjudice" is irrelevant. By choosing to direct his argument at the irrelevant views you hold, rather than the basis of your argument, Bochan_Bird is making a form of ad hominem attack which is called poisoining the well (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html).

As an introduction to unscrupulous debate techniques, I recommend this (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/) page, which is a feature on common types types oof fallacious arguments. In much the same vein I also urge you to peruse this section of the SkepticWiki (http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Logic_and_Logical_Fallacies%28index%29).

Finally, in order that we should not only be able to detect such arguments when employed by others, but also avoid inadvertantly employing them ourselves, I would suggest a read through this page (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html), which offers an introduction to constructing logical arguments.

All of the above is not meant to suggest that I believe you could use a refresher course, though. I'm simply assuming that your interest in the defintion of an ad hominem attack suggest that you share my interest in debate technique and logic. Not every conversation needs to be a logical debate, but it is always wise to be armed for a battle of wits.
I'll let Blader restore this thread to on-topicness. Hopefully.Meanie. :P

Blader5489

August 7th, 2006, 01:44 PM

Innumerable naked, human corpses are floating around in this vast space -- what do these represent?

LCL? Since human bodies are made of LCL, and a sea of LCL would essentially be a whole lot of lifeless humans, perhaps Lilith's blood would be best represented by a sea of corpses?

If there were no unborn souls to give to the Evas or Rei, that means that the Chamber has been empty since, like, they started putzing around with Evas, and that is quite falsifiable in the show. (There are children younger than their teens in the NGE universe, who would not be able to exist without souls.) Interpreting the lines this way requires strict adherence to the myth-version, and that probably isn't a very good idea.

On the contrary, I think interpreting Ritusko's rant using the original context of the Judaic CoG is the best, and only, way of explaining what she's talking about. I can't imagine how, or why, she would be referring to an SoL's "Chamber of Guf."

Well.. okay. Forget I said anything.

Well I'm not trying to just shoot your argument down quickly. It's just the Anno has a habit of using hands to express ideas and concepts throughout the show, and it's probably not worth pursuing as to why the Doors are on an SoL's hands (a better question would be: why does Anno use hands in the first place as a recurring visual motif?).

What is a "living monument" supposed to be?

Essentially, a big purple "Here lies humanity..." ;)

Evolving Eva into a Seed seems to make considerably more sense when all is considered.

How so?

Then why does she go with Kaworu and Rei to Heaven's Door, have a brief chat with him, and leave only his lower half behind? (...and at the end of EoTV, Yui and Gendo are shown standing together.)

But wasn't that just Lilith's "messengers of salvation" manifesting themselves as Yui, Kaworu, etc? I mean, that couldn't have been the real Yui or the real Eva-01 as they were both in space.

But one wonders how Lilith's soul could be extracted by accident -- wouldn't Lilith have a desire to be in her own body, as well?

Well, wasn't Lilith crucified? That's usually enough to stop her from doing anything.

Wow... how disheartening. I just typed up a large post in response to the Reichu/Soluzar/"M"/ML/female Adam issue when I accidentally hit the home key. >_<

I might retype it later, but long story short: I agree with M and Eva Monkey (the Seeds being physically asexual - especially since being physically female would still prevent Adam and Lilith from creating life). The duality argument that M brought up fits extremely well with what the show presents us, not to mention the fact that the translation of the word being "progenitor" (as opposed to a female mother) makes more sense given the context of the NGE universe and the context of NGE being a Japanese show that carries the weight of Eastern, not Western, culture.

And yes, that was the short version. :|

Reichu

August 7th, 2006, 02:04 PM

I make a poor logician, and much of the heavier stuff goes over my head, but many of the debate premises were ones of which I was already abstractly aware and have held "ideals towards". So, yes, you could say that an interest is there, and I do feel it is useful to be able to recognize counter-productive methods, regardless of who is employing them. (I think I already realized an error I've made... crap.)

But when it comes to geek-combat, taking things REALLY seriously is one of the worst mistakes, in the end.

I still wonder WTF "undue feminism" is supposed to mean. (Defending Shinji's character against certain kinds of attacks must surely count, as well.)

Reichu

August 7th, 2006, 02:18 PM

LCL? Since human bodies are made of LCL, and a sea of LCL would essentially be a whole lot of lifeless humans, perhaps Lilith's blood would be best represented by a sea of corpses?
I was thinking more along the lines that they represented human souls.

On the contrary, I think interpreting Ritusko's rant using the original context of the Judaic CoG is the best, and only, way of explaining what she's talking about. I can't imagine how, or why, she would be referring to an SoL's "Chamber of Guf."
What about the various points that I made?

How so?
I thought I already mentioned some of the relevant ideas?

But wasn't that just Lilith's "messengers of salvation" manifesting themselves as Yui, Kaworu, etc? I mean, that couldn't have been the real Yui or the real Eva-01 as they were both in space.
Lilith is appearing everywhere as Rei 3, so why not? And if it isn't EVA-01, then who bites off Gendo's upper torso?

I might retype it later, but long story short: I agree with M and Eva Monkey (the Seeds being physically asexual - especially since being physically female would still prevent Adam and Lilith from creating life).
It wouldn't be an impediment to Lilith, who "bleeds" it (and in a blatantly feminine manner, from the womb). And it's possible that Adam was impregnated in advance. There are other factors unaccounted for, as well.

The duality argument that M brought up fits extremely well with what the show presents us, not to mention the fact that the translation of the word being "progenitor" (as opposed to a female mother) makes more sense given the context of the NGE universe and the context of NGE being a Japanese show that carries the weight of Eastern, not Western, culture.
I am currently skeptical. From what bb said, his take on haha is going into the scientific, which seems a bit inappropriate. I also mentioned in a post to the board how "mother" is completely consistent with one of NGE's most prominent themes, and there's no reason to not take it at face value.

Also, the argument "They are Yin/Yang, and thus asexual" makes no real sense. "Which one is it, M?" I'm not sure how much he's considered Adam and Lilith's status as equals, two peers among many, either. He seemed to dismiss the CI discussing their natures quite readily in favor of the ML's preconception -- what was it? "One SoL + Giant Impact = Two SoLs"?

I suppose I wouldn't consider his formulaic analogy any more "proof" than are considered the parallels I've provided regarding "Kaworu Katsuragi".