Response to Ask John Editorial

[John]

The following was sent to me by personal e-mail in response to my "Is It Wrong To Use Japanese Terms When Discussing Anime? (http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=1365)" commentary. Below it is my own response.

While doubtfully reading your response, by the time I finished reading it I must say that, once again and again, I have found your thoughts to be organized and formed in a very understandable and reasonable fashion, making your stance and points very strong. Furthermore it reminds me how the terms like eroge and anison are Otaku terminology, and would not be understood by a native Japanese without real explanation as well. So the term anison and eroge would be equally baffling to that of an avergae Japanese as it would to an American.

But I digress too much, my apologies. My question was intended to ask something else: What do you feel about terms such as eroge and anison being used in English conversation context, (NOT as subtitles) though? How about Japanese used in English as a whole?

I am completely open to Japanese being used as a natural flow in conversation. For example, in parts of the West Coast, using the term "SKOSH" (sukoshi) implies only wanting just a little of something and is integrated into the language of English, at least regionally. Or course, terms like Head Honcho are very understandable across America. Hawaii has even more Japanese terms that are natural parts of the conversation (ie: Though not from Japanese: Haole, Hapa..) , But does Anime fans using generic Japanese terms like "Neko", "Baka", "Kawaii" in complete replacement of legitimate English words make any sense?

To me, that is like how you said subtitles for voiced words like "Baka" and "Aho" SHOULD be Romanized as Fool or Stupid.

I guess I see conversation as a naturally flowing medium, so while I can see why anyone should use Japanese terms if they are at a Japanese restaurant (ie:Sushi, Maguro, Toro.....), it seems to me the usage of certain terms like Kawaii,　Baka just because the person likes Anime to be shallow in itself for the reason that they are only using the language because they are in a niche entertainment field. 　This in general seems to go against a lot of what I've tried doing in my life.

For example, due to my bilingual background, I would be "considerate" to English speakers. If I go to a Sushi restaurant, I would say I want Toro, but if someone does not know what that is; I would immediately replace the term Toro with Fatty Tuna. I would then use the term that is most understandable in conversation. If Im just eating Toro, that term alone may be easy for my friend to remember. But if Im eating Tako, Unagi, Maguro, Masago........I might as well say Octopus, Eel, Tuna, Shell, etc. It is not that I want them to devoid them of a foreign term learning experience (I'd be glad to assist) but I think the point of conversation is natural communication.


This is not to be mistaken with the act of making fun of Japanese "English (mis)Pronounciation", or American fans singing Japanese songs (anime or not), or niche groups having inside jokes occasionally that involve the usage of spoken Japanese.

I guess I am just saying trying to say Kawaii every time cute is appropriate seems artificial, forced, and seems to be using such a specialized un-common word to dictate Cuteness that its really portraying how Otaku's are "in their own world", "own hobbies", and have no consideration for language as a tool of communication. (unless its to communicate their thoughts of how much they love Japanese
animation)

I am welcome to the idea that I may be completely wrong, disprove me freely if you have the time. Sorry for the long email. Take care

My answer:
Please excuse my brief reply. I think it's appropriate because you've already thoroughly explicated my point. I agree with you completely. In my editorial I said, "There's no rational or literary reason not to translate common words and phrases... Arbitrary use of Japanese language may hinder effective communication." I didn't emphasize the capriciousness of inserting random or arbitrary Japanese words into English speech unnecessarily because that wasn't my point, but I did want to convey the idea that I only encourage using borrowed words in conversation when there's a good reason to do so. Using Japanese words like "baka" and "neko" in casual speech may be fun and gratifying, but in an academic sense, doing so is unnecessary, inappropriate, and counter-productive. I don't object to people who choose to talk that way, but I don't do it myself.

[Starchild]

John, do you think the above conversation should be also translated with the piece into Japanese in Ask John Fankurabu?

[Dan]

its really portraying how Otaku's are "in their own world", "own hobbies", and have no consideration for language as a tool of communication. (unless its to communicate their thoughts of how much they love Japanese

I completely see this as the issue, even in the case of "eroge", "anison" and etc. I feel use of these terms, although they more accurately transmit their meaning, are possibly "ahead of their time" for use in america.

Take for example as you explained through the use of "anime", "manga" and "doujinshi". These terms have been around enough and are used on a high scale that even people who are not interested in them are aware of their meaning (if only superficially). However, I would risk claiming that the majority of american anime fans have no idea what "anison" is even an abbreviation of, let alone what it specifically dictates. If the reason for these sorts of words is to more clearly specify a meaning, then their use completely contradicts that purpose.

Where the statement originated is unclear to me, so I have no idea if the user was indeed expressing a "wapanese" (another new word to me) tone, but it definately presents itself as a possibility, which I dont feel is in the least xenophobic if true. Another highly likely possibility is that the user was selfishly ignorant of their listener's comprehension level or simply selfshly singleminded to not even care. This is one of my main problems with modern communication, specifically online, so as a result I always try to lay out what I'm talking about first if I dont know my listeners. The time wasted saying "japanese erotic game" is far less than if you have to reiterate what "eroge" means after confusing your listener.

This all rests on common courtesy to your audience and the fact that these words are not yet english vernacular. Although I overall agree with the opinions in your editorial, I feel its strong stance will give a lot of selfishly singleminded people a green light to continue this sort of annoying an unproductive practice. While I certainly dont think that is your intention, I can see a lot of people seeing it that way.

[John]

Dan, point taken.

Starchild, I'll leave the decision to translate this response up to the "Ask John Fankurabu" translator. I believe this only re-states what I stated in my original article, but this may clarify points, or add a useful second perspective to the article.

[Shoujo Love]

Must we not also forget that, much like in a monolingual situation(as opposed to a bilingual one, such as this issue), some people have satisfaction in using terms that others do not know?

A small girl on a playground may use some large words that she recently learned to impress her friends. An auto mechanic may use some very specialized vocational vocabulary to gain power over his customer and leave him in the dark.

Is there not a tendency to automatically respect someone who uses words we do not know because we assume they must be correct and educated in their usage?

I'm not trying to issue some blanket statement over all otaku. But from the helplessly wapanese I've been around, and don't lie-- we ALL have been around them, (forget being PC, I'm not xenophobic; I love Japan) I find that with a group passionate about Japanese culture, the more Japanese words inserted into one's speech, the higher status one might receive.

But clearly this behavior is not applicable to groups outside of this sub-culture. As the original question poster and John both said, any lingual combination used to the average person is inefficient, misplaced, and pompous.

After all, how useful is it if I go to McDonalds and say "Me gustaría un hamburguesa con papas fritas?"

[Dan]

Take note in the fact that both of your examples for when this type of practice is used were for malevolent purposes (okay, maybe not the girl). Trying to cheat money out of someone and belittling others is irritating and unproductive for the greater population.

As for "Is there not a tendency to automatically respect someone who uses words we do not know because we assume they must be correct and educated in their usage? ...the more Japanese words inserted into one's speech, the higher status one might receive."

The only reason people do that is because they find comfort in a group mentality and establishing an in- and out- group. There is nothing wrong with the creation and use of these innovations, but when its done for its own sake its often transparent, and I personally find it pretty pathetic and immature. If you get wowed by big words, sorry about you luck.

[Shoujo Love]

Fine, then let's use an example that's closer to that of the original question poster.

A girl can be on the playground and say to her friend(who's an anime fan) "I love onigiri! Do you like onigiri?" This exchange is fine.

But the same girl can then turn to her other friend, whom she knows is not an anime fan(and knows very little about Japanese culture) and ask the same question. Suddenly her question really isn't meant to be answered at all, but instead meant to put up a barrier between what Dan called the in- and out-group, which I would very much call a malevolent use.

I believe this is to what the original question poster referred. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Dan]

No, no. Your exactly right! We're all on the same board here.

[Samurai Drifter]

Otaku's are "in their own world", "own hobbies", and have no consideration for language as a tool of communication. (unless its to communicate their thoughts of how much they love Japanese
animation)

No. This person is totally missing the point. The Japanese terms that John was saying should be used are nouns that can sometimes only convey all of their cultural meanings and connotations of left in their original form. Randomly using other words like "baka", "neko", or "kawaii" is a totally different issue.

But the same girl can then turn to her other friend, whom she knows is not an anime fan(and knows very little about Japanese culture) and ask the same question. Suddenly her question really isn't meant to be answered at all, but instead meant to put up a barrier between what Dan called the in- and out-group, which I would very much call a malevolent use.
Oh, sure, that's a possibility. But at that point the problem's less with the otaku subculture using the occasional Japanese noun and more about a person who enjoys excluding others. It's a personality issue; if not Japanese phrases they'd be doing it some other way.

[Dan]

Oh, sure, that's a possibility. But at that point the problem's less with the otaku subculture using the occasional Japanese noun and more about a person who enjoys excluding others. It's a personality issue; if not Japanese phrases they'd be doing it some other way.

Exactly. Or if not excluding others, placing onself above them. But do you feel this trait tends to rear its ugly head more within people who like anime? I would say no, but feel it is extremely obvious when it does occur, making it all the more preventable and unnecessary.

[aorta]

Non-anime watchers use "sayonara" all the time. It's even in the American Heritage Englsih dictionary. If a word is used often enough, it can become part of the language, even if it's from a foreign source.

I remember in the early nineties when I was in school, a bunch of people called one another with the -san honorific, not because of anime, but because of an episode of "The Simpsons".

If people want kawaii to become another synonym for cute, I don't really have a problem with that. The English language is a bunch of loan words anyway. Greek, Latin, and German roots and all that.

Not sure sure what the point of all this was.

[Tama83]

In regards to "aho":

John, you say it should be translated to mean "fool" or "stupid", but what about when crows say it? You see "aho" is also Japanese onomatopoeia (sp?) for the sound a crow makes (in English we say "caw caw"). Now, I'm not talking about ordinary crow calling, I mean in certain anime where somebody says or does something stupid, then a crow comes flying going "Aho! Aho!". Dr. Slump is one example of this.

So, when this comes around, then how should be translated? Saying "caw caw" kinda ruins the joke, and Viz translated it (in the Dr. Slump manga) as simply "Dimwhit! Dimwhit!". However, how should the pun be done in anime? Should "aho" be translated then?

[Suiko Eiji]

Non-anime watchers use "sayonara" all the time. It's even in the American Heritage Englsih dictionary. If a word is used often enough, it can become part of the language, even if it's from a foreign source.

I remember in the early nineties when I was in school, a bunch of people called one another with the -san honorific, not because of anime, but because of an episode of "The Simpsons".

There is a bit of distinction between the use of a loan word (such as someone saying the English "sayonara" instead of the Japanese) and simply using a foreign word.

While in some social groups, the use of Japanese terms may be appropriate for a variety of reasons; however, in many of these instances, I think Dan is right in that a number of fans may use them to establish some sort of hierarchy or in-group/out-group scenario. It's applicable on a case-by-case basis.

The English language is a bunch of loan words anyway. Greek, Latin, and German roots and all that.

More off topic, but I disagree that English is "a bunch of loan words".

In regards to "aho":

John, you say it should be translated to mean "fool" or "stupid", but what about when crows say it? You see "aho" is also Japanese onomatopoeia (sp?) for the sound a crow makes (in English we say "caw caw"). Now, I'm not talking about ordinary crow calling, I mean in certain anime where somebody says or does something stupid, then a crow comes flying going "Aho! Aho!". Dr. Slump is one example of this.

So, when this comes around, then how should be translated? Saying "caw caw" kinda ruins the joke, and Viz translated it (in the Dr. Slump manga) as simply "Dimwhit! Dimwhit!". However, how should the pun be done in anime? Should "aho" be translated then?

It's up to the translator. More than likely, they'll notice the joke but you're right, conveying that exact joke in the given confines of the medium is tricky. Personally, if space permits, I would run both the English onomotopoeia and the translation together, almost in a 'Netspeak fashion*, with a translation note of its origin seperately. Of course, the next guy may do something completely different...

*which will drive editors and other English language freaks nuts, most likely.

[Dan]

Non-anime watchers use "sayonara" all the time. It's even in the American Heritage Englsih dictionary. If a word is used often enough, it can become part of the language, even if it's from a foreign source.
.....

Not sure sure what the point of all this was.

Yea, its pretty clear you dont get the point. "sayonara" is practically a word in english just as "bye bye" is in japanese. However, "eroge" is very obscure, even with people who might be ecpected to know it, hence is probably not helpful for general use since the point of communication is to transmit ideas and it accomplishes the opposite.

It's up to the translator. More than likely, they'll notice the joke but you're right, conveying that exact joke in the given confines of the medium is tricky. Personally, if space permits, I would run both the English onomotopoeia and the translation together, almost in a 'Netspeak fashion*, with a translation note of its origin seperately. Of course, the next guy may do something completely different...

*which will drive editors and other English language freaks nuts, most likely.


Also, make no mistake - crows do not say "aho", they say "kaa". The gag with crows saying "aho" is specifically to have an anonymous entity point out a joke, much like a cricket chirping. It seems a fairly known joke in japan, but crows still say "kaa".

[Shoujo Love]

I don't want to get too far into linguistics here, but...

Yes, English is basically a Germanic language with a bunch of Latin loan words(thanks to French). But these changes were relevant and spread out over time, much like how "sayonara" is a relevant loan word today. "Eroge" is not. It's a forced foreign word that impedes good communication (among an out-group).

[Mr. Nice]

Yes, English is basically a Germanic language with a bunch of Latin loan words(thanks to French).While English does have a fair few Latin loan words, largely coming from law & the sciences, French itself its the source for vast amounts of English vocabulary thanks to the Norman invasion of England way back in 1066 (although the modern English and modern French cognates from this are at the very least pronounced quite differently, and more often substantial differences in exact meaning too).