Lolicon made illegal?

[Ark]

I'm in no way into Lolicon but word on the net is that a new Bill was introduced against child porn a few days ago that has been interpreted by some to include Lolicon.

If it's true what I'd like to know is how are they gonna verify whether a drawing is past the age of consent?

[Leader Desslock]

Link to source? Or did you receive this in some sort of spam email and decide to pass the misinformation?

I'm not aware of a new bill, but there are a few old ones floating around, I thought. I think we've had discussions about this, but I think those threads have been deleted.

[Animematt55]

It is due to the fact that all the lolicon boards hve gone down for a while i think.

[mimage]

It's been this way for a while..

read here..

http://www.answers.com/topic/protect-act-of-2003

here is a piece from the article

The prohibitions against computer-generated and illustrated child pornography have also been previously ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court, when they were included in the Child Pornography Prevention Act of 1996.

[Animematt55]

so it is? or isnt now?

[Ark]

Link to source? Or did you receive this in some sort of spam email and decide to pass the misinformation?

I'm not aware of a new bill, but there are a few old ones floating around, I thought. I think we've had discussions about this, but I think those threads have been deleted.

http://hentaiid.com/

[Tidusauron12]

This crap has been debated for years, but I still know alot of places that took down Lolicon boards/pics/doujin. And I still know some places that haven't taken away their lolicon.

[Leader Desslock]

http://hentaiid.com/
Thanks for the link, but I don't see anything in HR4472 (the new legislation) that expands upon the definitions of child pornography already contained within other legislation. There may be a change in the classification to a Tier II sex offender for the charge of distribution, but I don't see anything that changes the definition of what constitutes child pornography.

If someone else actually cares, you can look through the text of the new bill here:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-4472

I dunno. Much ado about nothing. What was illegal is still illegal. All that's changed are the penalties, from what I can tell. Certainly nothing worthy of a ZOMG!!1. I should think that the time to protest this would have been before 2257 was passed. Reacting now seems a bit like locking the barn door after the horses have fled.

[Ark]

This crap has been debated for years, but I still know alot of places that took down Lolicon boards/pics/doujin. And I still know some places that haven't taken away their lolicon.

What I'm curious about is what is seen as potentially being targeted.

There are many animes with below 18yr olds engaging in sexual acts.

[cris]

to make everything easier for you guys, the Bust Administrative hates adults, and not just loli, but they are trying to shutdown lots of stripbars/adult stores/etc, there's a bunch of court cases around the country because of this. Adult commercial owners vs. the government (local or state).

Anything related to this, you can most likely get the easiest expllination through www.avn.com articles

btw, that link is an adult, but there's no nude. It is a public magazine, but all private parts are mosaiced (except nipples) and is a news sites (Adult Video News)

[GX3]

NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! , wait that's not right thier just cartoons (nice cartoons :P ) not real!

[Matsu'o Tsurayaba]

Yes...and no.Lolicon is now illegal from what i hear,but this is only for America.But for Europe and elseware,things are still the same.

[John]

I agree with Leader Desslock. I haven't read the entire 2006 Adam Walsh Child Protection Bill, but it doesn't seem to make lolicon illegal. It only requires that the age of participants in depictions of sexuality be on record. The expansion of registration requirement in the bill only applies to artists who create visual depictions of sexuality. As far as I can tell, it doesn't apply to websites that host images they did not create, and it doesn't apply to people who look at images. The bill requires graphic artists, sculptors, film makers, and other visual artists to keep records of model/actor birthdates, but fictional characters don't have birthdates, so the law can't apply to them. As Leader Desslock mentioned, this new law doesn't seem to re-define child pornography at all. It also doesn't seem to suddenly make Japanese loli art illegal. I think a lot of the hysteria in the anime community is being fueled by people who haven't actually tried reading the actual bill. Lots of people refer to Hentaiid, but it seems clear to me that Hentaiid doesn't understand what the bill actually says and requires. For example, contrary to what Hentaiid claims, the new bill does not require artists to file their own personal information.

[loplop]

HR4472 does not change the definition of Child Pornography, but it does give the Federal Government more lead-way in prosecution and investigations as I understand it. . . . .

[Leader Desslock]

...Perhaps if someone who cares could walk through the text of the bill and cite their areas of concern (with section/paragraph references, relevant quotes), this thread might be elevated from rumor and heresay to an informed discussion.

I did go through the text of the bill, and I didn't see anything troublesome. Then again, we're talking about pornography, sex offenders and US govt. legalese, so my eyes probably glazed over at a few points. -_-;

[cris]

Not directly related to this, but just to show how strict they are becoming with adult contents and producers.
BETHLEHEM, Penn. - Amateur gay content producer Sebastian Sloane Productions was the target of the second reported 18 U.S.C. §2257 investigation this morning, according to owner JJ Ruch.

-advertisement-
Reportedly one of 16 regional federal units saddled with investigating adult content producers, the agents showed up on Ruch’s doorstep at approximately 8 a.m. EST, went through his model release documents, his computers, video cameras, masters and even searched his kitchen and living room.

“They told me [the FBI is] conducting an investigation of all producers who produce any kind of pornographic material and they plan to finish this by December. They also said they’ve spent two years gathering up information on adult web sites… done Whois searches, and have picked up information by going to [VOD sites] to figure out who is producing videos,” Ruch told AVN.com.

Federal agents visited the Chatsworth, California offices of Diabolic Video on Monday to check their 2257 records.

Like Diabolic Ruch was told he passed the inspection, but we was still a bit shaken.

He received a phone call Thursday from the FBI stating that investigators would arrive at 8 a.m. on August 1 to inspect his records. So it came as a surprise when they knocked on his door this morning.

“I was a complete nervous wreck… They were just taking pictures of my model contracts and model IDs. They had a machine that they put the model ID information in and it tells them whether the model is under 18 or not. I don’t film models unless they look over the age of 21 anyway just for that reason,” he said.

“I do everything by the books just for this reason.”

Sebastian Sloane Productions primarily shoots videos and stills, but also has online content on SebastianSloaneProductions.com. Some of that content is produced by other companies, and falls under the secondary producer stipulation in the 2257 regulations.

“Not all of the [content] is mine. Some of it is affiliated content from programs like TopBucks that I use to promote them,” Ruch said.

“They saw content that didn’t match the photo IDs and they wanted to know what that was, so I explained to them that other companies have released content to me to promote them, so they wanted to see the producer content releases.”

The investigators that visited Sebastian Sloane Productions this morning are currently moving through Pennsylvania, Ruch informed AVN.com.

Sebastian Sloane Productions is not a member of the Free Speech Coalition.

[Akito]

Couldn't resist (http://objection.4camp.net/go.php?n=480264)

[Animematt55]

Couldn't resist (http://objection.4camp.net/go.php?n=480264)
That WIns..... We need the Pheonix Wright guys defending this.

[MagicianCamille]

That WIns..... We need the Pheonix Wright guys defending this.

Pheonix Wright wouldn't defend child porn.

[Animematt55]

Pheonix Wright wouldn't defend child porn.
But apparently, Edgewood will...

[Mr. Chicken]

Hmm... mabe thats why the renchan website's not working. Or mabe my computers just having issues agian...

[Leader Desslock]

Not directly related to this, but just to show how strict they are becoming with adult contents and producers.

...Reportedly one of 16 regional federal units saddled with investigating adult content producers
They're not being THAT strict, if they've only assigned 16 regional federal units... :rolleyes:

Different branches of law enforcement have lots of special units assigned to lots of special investigations. It's just another unit ensuring compliance with federal regulations. Nobody considers it a 'raid' when the FDA inspectors arrive at a slaughterhouse; this is no different.

[Ark]

...Perhaps if someone who cares could walk through the text of the bill and cite their areas of concern (with section/paragraph references, relevant quotes), this thread might be elevated from rumor and heresay to an informed discussion.

I did go through the text of the bill, and I didn't see anything troublesome. Then again, we're talking about pornography, sex offenders and US govt. legalese, so my eyes probably glazed over at a few points. -_-;

I think this is the passage in question.The important word is "simulated"

f) It shall be unlawful--

`(4) for any person knowingly to sell or otherwise transfer, or offer for sale or transfer, any book, magazine, periodical, film, video, or other matter, produced in whole or in part with materials which have been mailed or shipped in interstate or foreign commerce or which is intended for shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, that--

`(A) contains 1 or more visual depictions made after the date of enactment of this subsection of simulated sexually explicit conduct"

[silencer]

I think this is the passage in question.The important word is "simulated"

If that's what it means then this law is very badly worded. I would normally assume that simulated refers to things like most sex scenes in movies, where a sexual act is depicted with actual humans but is entirely acted and/or faked.

EDIT: In fact, looking at this combined with other US laws I don't see any indication that it means anything else.

[Leader Desslock]

^ Agreed. The text I can find in other bills indicates that "simulated [whatever]" means "appears to a reasonable observer to be [whatever]". It doesn't have anything to do with animation.

[VacantEyes]

They're not being THAT strict, if they've only assigned 16 regional federal units... :rolleyes:

Different branches of law enforcement have lots of special units assigned to lots of special investigations. It's just another unit ensuring compliance with federal regulations. Nobody considers it a 'raid' when the FDA inspectors arrive at a slaughterhouse; this is no different.

To imply that the investigations opened and penalties levied by the FDA and the FBI are in any way similar is to openly admit pure and blatant ignorance of the law. Brand new units are working under a new agency-wide directive and you have the gall to imply it's merely business as usual? Please.

Attorney General Gonzalez is on an anti-porn mission, as was Bush's previous Attorney General, but John Ashcroft's warn on conventional porn was interrupted by 9-11. Prior to that we had Janet Reno, who went on the record stating that she had better things to do than to chase after content depicting consenting adults.

Here's some light reading for those who are interested...

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1125318960389

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/19/AR2005091901570.html

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/article.php?id=8536

http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD/MGArticle/RTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1128768481527

[Leader Desslock]

To imply that the investigations opened and penalties levied by the FDA and the FBI are in any way similar is to openly admit pure and blatant ignorance of the law.
Just as pointless fearmongering openly admits ignorance of recent history.

Remember Surgeon General C. Everett Koop's little crusade against smoking? Remember all the little 'special initiatives' that were started, looking into charges of long term fraud, racketeering and all that fun stuff? Remember how the big tobacco lobby went to the growers and got them all scared, telling people "Oh, if this keeps up, you'll all be growing soybeans for 3 cents a square mile! You better vote your future!" Rememeber all that?

Tell me - do you remember not being able to buy cigarettes lately? Do you remember not being able to buy any first-person shooters after Tipper Gore's little crusade?

Every administration comes in with their little pet projects. Every administrations uses the tools at its disposal. That includes both the legislative and judicial branches when they can get away with it. But when all's said and done and the dust settles, how many evils in our society do they really manage to stomp out? Even Prohibition only lasted a few years, and that had mainstream support.

What I'm saying is that just because there are a few new clauses in the law, and just because the pornographic industry is having a bit of culture shock at finally being regulated, that doesn't mean there has to be great wailing and gnashing of teeth that the sky is falling in. Read the LAW, not the commentary. Consider the potential effects of that law. Act in a mature and effective manner to ensure that unfair laws are repealed.

At no point does "ZOMG!!1!, LOLICON IS ILLEGAL!! CURSE THE FUNDIES" or similar common sentiments help anyone's cause.

I see nothing in the referenced law worth getting upset about. Additional regulation and enforcement of existing law, that's it. Big deal. Is Lolicon illegal today? No. Then why would additional enforcement of those existing laws change that? It wouldn't. Lolicon is no more illegal once the referenced bill is passed than it was before the bill was proposed.

Everyone can just relax. Nothing's substantially changed regarding the legality of lolicon. That's all I was saying.

[K3MONO]

Well i heard they were depating getting rid of it but then the case was droped, just today i learned was lolicon was. Anywayz i dont know why they would drop a case and apply it that quickly

[VacantEyes]

Just as pointless fearmongering openly admits ignorance of recent history.

Remember Surgeon General C. Everett Koop's little crusade against smoking? Remember all the little 'special initiatives' that were started, looking into charges of long term fraud, racketeering and all that fun stuff? Remember how the big tobacco lobby went to the growers and got them all scared, telling people "Oh, if this keeps up, you'll all be growing soybeans for 3 cents a square mile! You better vote your future!" Rememeber all that?

Tell me - do you remember not being able to buy cigarettes lately? Do you remember not being able to buy any first-person shooters after Tipper Gore's little crusade?

Are you really comparing an anti-consumption consumer awareness campaign involving an inherently legal product by a SURGEON general with a multi-agency primary directive issued by an ATTORNEY general involving a product whose legality is subject to the community standards of every single location in which it is available? Instead of going back and forth with you I'm simply going to cut right to the chase.

This issue is not about the new laws so much as it's about enforcement of current laws. There is no need to change the current law in order to substantially impact the sale and availability of hentai. Continuous challenges and court costs associated with fighting endless battles over decency and artistic value with the Justice Department would be more than enough to bring down most hentai distributors who didn't choose to self-censor their own titles.

Even if one or more was somehow able to last long enough for the case to be brought to the supreme court (and if it was even accepted) then the newly emboldened conservative side would likely rule somewhat differently than past judgments. This is a surprisingly simple path to envision and yet none of the points you've made addresses it.

The truth is that the porn industry has simply been lucky. Ever since Reagan left they've slowly been able to go back to business as usual, until Bush 43 decided it was time to appeal to his base of hypocrites (most of the world's porn is made and sold right here in America) and bring back the Regan-era anti-porn movement. Only 9-11 put the breaks on those plans, and now it's back on the front burner.

You can claim I'm an alarmist if you want, but the facts are the facts. Just because you can get away with downloading music and movies doesn't mean that it won't catch up to you some day. Folks used to swear that the record companies would never go after the individual consumers of music and we all saw how naive that was. The truth of the matter is that everyday music thieves are still just a new directive away from being fined hundreds of thousands of dollars and spending years in jail.

Likewise, the distributors of hentai might be getting bolder and bolder at the moment, but in due time they're likely to start getting quite a bit more cautious about what they choose to bring over and who they sell it to. Already most of the major porn sellers will no longer ship to my location because one or more of them has faced the prospect of litigation in my community. Eventually the same may become true of hentai. At that point it won't really matter what the legal status is because there will be no legal way to purchase it in the first place.

See the picture? There's no doubt hentai will probably always exist, but acquiring and possessing uncensored hentai may eventually become rather more difficult than before.

[TK]

Hell if lolicon is illegal in the US now, just setup servers in another country.
The internets a big place, people will have contacts

[Joeshie]

It's illegal in Canada. :O

[Animematt55]

Hell if lolicon is illegal in the US now, just setup servers in another country.
The internets a big place, people will have contacts
THE INTERNET IS A SERIES OF TUBES!

[IAmTacoSalad]

Hell if lolicon is illegal in the US now, just setup servers in another country.
The internets a big place, people will have contacts

If they did that it would be illegal to connect to those servers in the United States.

EDIT: Age of consent laws are rather silly in regards to pornography. Within the United States we have convoluted laws on these issues at both the state and Federal level. It's ironic that in some circumstances actual intercourse would be legal between two individuals, but if they were to then discuss their intercourse over an instant messaging program it could then be prosecuted.

Additional Edit: The legality of lolicon is an interesting topic and one I'm concerned about. An argument can be made against materials in which those depicted are shown as pre-pubescent. However, post puberty without stating a character’s age there is no way it can be determined. Because someone is one day younger then 18 it suddenly becomes a crime against humanity? Certainly not although some judges seem to be lacking common sense. I find it disturbingly hypocritical that pornography is illegal for anyone under 18 in the United States yet in certain states it remains legal for a twelve year old to engage in intercourse.

[Soluzar]

If they did that it would be illegal to connect to those servers in the United States.

Something being illegal rarely stops internet users from partaking of it.

[Leader Desslock]

^ Much the same way prostitution is illegal in most of the country. In the words of George Carlin: "****ing is legal; selling is legal. How can it be illegal to sell what it's perfectly legal to give away for free?" :lol:


@VacantEyes: Whatever, dude. You and I are on such different wavelengths that there's very little point in discussion between us. If you wanna wear the Chicken Little hat, be my guest. From my perspective, I don't see what anyone's getting wound up about, but I won't infringe on anyone's right to run amok if it makes them feel better.

And for the sake of clarification, I think my posts on this board will bear out the fact that I'm a fairly staunch advocate of copyright laws being enforced as well. So the whole, "people didn't think it would happen with downloaded music" argument is best reserved for someone else, I think.

[IAmTacoSalad]

Something being illegal rarely stops internet users from partaking of it.

Illegality is only relevant to the extent it is prosecuted. Laws don't mean anything without enforcement. We are able to break those laws on the internet with such promiscuously due to lax enforcement.

[VacantEyes]

@VacantEyes: Whatever, dude. You and I are on such different wavelengths that there's very little point in discussion between us.

That sounds a lot like a copout to me.

If you wanna wear the Chicken Little hat, be my guest.

You can call me an alarmist if you wish; I just don't think you should be on here shouting "all's well!" over and over again. The idea that government incompetence is going to forever remain the inadvertent savior of free speech in America is both bizarre and irrational. Suggesting that the rest of us should merely rely on the potential ineptitude of those who would work to restrict our civil liberties is a foolhardy position to take. That sort of nonsense might play well in a sea of fan boys, but don't expect a serious adult to buy into it.

[K3MONO]

hahaha the internet is a series of tubes i love that. It cracked me up when i saw that!

[Defiled one]

so... now its ilegal in the usa? land of freedom..... yeah.... right....

I prefer europe thank you very much

[*koji]

The legality of lolicon might not of changed, but the fact that the current "administration" persists in placing ideology above science, ethics, or plain common sense, truly terrifies me at times.

[Leader Desslock]

That sounds a lot like a copout to me.
Well, I meant it in terms of 'is there really any point'? You're obviously not listening to what I'm saying, and from where I sit, you don't have any sense of perspective on the matter. Case in point:

The idea that government incompetence is going to forever remain the inadvertent savior of free speech in America is both bizarre and irrational. Suggesting that the rest of us should merely rely on the potential ineptitude of those who would work to restrict our civil liberties is a foolhardy position to take.
Did I ever say that? No? Then you're hearing what you want to hear, not what I'm saying. If you're not going to be listening to my actualy point of view, what's the use of presenting it to you? You clearly think crying fowl is the most effective use of your time, so I wish you luck with that.

For the record, I'm absolutely fine with all the following:
1) The pornography industry being held accountable to the regulations surrounding that industry
2) All pornography (animated, drawn or otherwise) involving prepubescent subjects being banned entirely - if that happens to be the worst case scenario of the current law
3) Copyright violators (since you brought it up) being sued according to the laws surrounding copyright protection

By the same token, these are just laws. If they're not the laws we should have, they can be changed. If the 'right' laws involve the total revocation of copyright protection for all forms of media, no regulation of the porn industry, and the abolishment of the sex offender registry - those laws can be passed. Until those laws ARE passed, the current laws should be enforced, however.

If you've got a 'wrong' law, then lax enforcement merely dilutes the pain and prolongs the problem. I support full enforcement of child pornography legislation. If it's the right thing to do, it should be enforced. If it's the wrong thing to do, then the problems will be highlighted and addressed more swiftly. Either way, I think it's better than ambiguous and arbitrary enforcement.

...don't expect a serious adult to buy into it.
Nothing you've said indicates to me that you're prepared to talk at that level, but okay... I'll bite. Let's do a little thought experiment here. The purpose of this thought experiment is to show you how I think a responsible adult would act within the system.

Imagine a spectrum of content. On one end of that spectrum is something so benign that it contains absolutely no socially objectionable content at all... let's say... Blue's Clues. (never mind for now the effect of showing such inane content to our children) On the other end of the spectrum is (for purposes of this discussion) a live action, non-consensual infant rape & snuff film, which I sincerely hope we call all agree is 'over the limit' of what our society should tolerate.

If this spectrum goes from "always tolerable" to "never tolerable", then everything else is going to fall in between. A typical Disney film has mild animated violence, but it'd still be closer to the "always tolerable" end of the spectrum than, say, Lord Of The Rings. It's reasonable to speculate that Bible Black is going to be closer to the other end of the spectrum. Follow me so far?

At some point, society is going to draw two lines. You can cry freedom all you want, but every society in the world has its limits. Those two lines are going to be:
1) The point after which content on the spectrum becomes restricted
2) The point after which content on the spectrum is prohibited

The lines might be drawn in the same place, or they might be broken up into several lines (i.e.: The MPAA rating system) representing different levels of restriction. The details don't really matter; what matters is that society is going to define those limits and attempt to codify them for fair enforcement.

The practical exercise for the thought experiment is: Where would you draw those lines? I ask that rhetorically, but it's worth considering the moment someone starts blaming Administration X and Puritan Attitudes and everyone else who "just doesn't understand".

The REAL question that I'm going to ask will go out to all of those people who want to blame "Bush, Gonzales and the Fundies" or whoever your particular phantom du jour might be. The question is this:

How many of you people have gone to your state legislators to propose legislation of your own to 'correctly' define the legal bounds and regulations for what is considered pornography? You're all saying that the folks who are doing it don't know what they're doing, right? You're all supposedly more 'in the know' than the folks doing their jobs, right? So who among this esteemed panel of experts has actually attempted to use the system to improve the laws of the country in which they live? Who has submitted favorable research to their legislator to support their own wording for what is deemed legally 'acceptable' in this country?

Anyone? Or have you all limited yourselves to signing online petitions that will never be looked at by anyone, anywhere, ever? maybe a couple of blog rants? That's it? Anyone?

You want to look at this like an adult? You want to show that you really do understand the bigger issues? Great! Regale us with tales of your free speech advocacy. I'm willing to bet that maybe John has done some work, but I don't expect to hear much from the rest of you. This groups illiteracy of the actual text of the legislation speaks volumes on that score.

You want your opinion to be treated like an adult? You want to be taken seriously? Use the system the way it's designed to be used. Anything else is (forgive the vernacular) bitching and fearmongering, and I don't really see why our legislators should take it seriously, do you?

[Bezerker]

I dont get the big deal about lolicon hentai. When it comes down to it, its ink on paper (or computer graphics). You can draw an 18 year old girl with the body of a 12 year old, or have a 12 year old girl with J-cups, they're just drawings...

Hell, if they caught Jeffrey Jones/Pete Townsend with hentai, they'd probably just laugh at em.

[Defiled one]

In my opinion I am concerned not about the lolita censor or that things, since it doesnt suit my tastes. But I am concerned about the law it self.
If its aproved...by the looks of it its still being discussed. The main fact that banning that, will result in severe consequences... what does this law really represent?.. is.. like they decide what is aceptle in their parameters and what is not in anime... its the first inteligent method of taking out freedom of speech.

This may be, the very first steps to lack of freedom of choice.... taking us all the possiblitys, forcing us to only choose one path.... if this continues we may even come to a point of even being phroibited to think what we want.....

Lets face it... or the goverment knows something about anime that we dont know that makes then censor lolita yet it is clear that they are ficticious characters... unless... :O

It may be a crazy theory.. but still its a possiblitly, even if its a radical one... i wouldnt go on details because i know that the thread is being monitorized by the feds.


that is my opinion....

[VacantEyes]

Leader Desslock,

You went strait from dropping the subject to writing a novel? I'll have to revisit this again to cover the rest, but for the moment I'm just going to sum up my views this way.

The current administration is already going after media depicting non-violent, non-furry, beast-free, scat-free, completely consensual sex in private between adults. The characters and themes you see in most hentai media involve subjects that are well beyond anything you'd ever see in most American pornographic films. Thus, it's quite reasonable to assume that as hentai becomes more commonplace and as it continues to push the boundaries of decency and art we will eventually see a showdown with a Justice Department that is in no particular mood to compromise. Just because most of us happen to see an obvious demarcation line at the lolicon genre doesn't mean that they will.

[Leader Desslock]

Leader Desslock,

You went strait from dropping the subject to writing a novel?
Yeah, I do that when someone drops a Condescension Bomb like "copout". ^_^

...Just because most of us happen to see an obvious demarcation line at the lolicon genre doesn't mean that they will.
In other words, "Why no, LD - even though I think the current legislation is the work of misguided/ignorant legislators, I haven't gotten involved politically to ensure that the rights I claim to care about are preserved."

That about sum it up there, VE? Can we drop it now?

[animeotaku99]

EDit. Lolicon is NOT illegal in teh United States but if it is a realistic computer generation then it can be deemed child pornography
EDit again: wait there was some guy that got charged with recieving lolicon along with real child porn

But I still think Lolicon is not illegal, it would be unconstituational and it has already been ruled on.

[VacantEyes]

Yeah, I do that when someone drops a Condescension Bomb like "copout". ^_^

In other words, "Why no, LD - even though I think the current legislation is the work of misguided/ignorant legislators, I haven't gotten involved politically to ensure that the rights I claim to care about are preserved."

That about sum it up there, VE? Can we drop it now?

Well, we probably could have dropped it before you went and made yet another blatantly ignorant comment about you think you know about my level of political involvement.

To nobody's surprise but perhaps your own, being a liberal in Texas typically makes for rather difficult and unrewarding work. Every year I set aside time and money for political causes and I also send dozens of letters to my Representative and Senators on issues I find important and every year they send dozens of form letters back saying "Thanks, but we're convinced that we know better than you do about what Texas and America need."

Actually, my Representative has agreed with me many times but Kay Bailey Hutchison has agreed with me on exactly one issue out of hundreds. I don't send anything to Bush because he's nothing but a spoiled, mindless puppet whose only real concern appears to be helping millionaires become billionaires.

I have no idea how involved with politics you are, so feel free to enlighten me.

[animeotaku99]

I asked my teacher, he is a defense lawyer, and he thinks that lolicon is legal as long as it is not graphical generated to pass off as real

[Leader Desslock]

I have no idea how involved with politics you are, so feel free to enlighten me.
On this particular issue (legality of Lolicon), not at all. I'm perfectly fine with the current legislation, and I've got no problem with the pornography industry being heavily regulated. I'm totally cool with the current enforcement of copyright infringements, too - just in case you're wondering. ^_^

So we're good now?

[VacantEyes]

On this particular issue (legality of Lolicon), not at all. I'm perfectly fine with the current legislation, and I've got no problem with the pornography industry being heavily regulated. I'm totally cool with the current enforcement of copyright infringements, too - just in case you're wondering. ^_^

So we're good now?

It sounds like you were trying to call me out for being a hypocrite but inadvertently outed yourself instead? Also, just to set the record strait, I'm not advocating protection for lolicon. Instead, I'm merely pointing out that most hentai in general already surpasses live-action pornography in terms of potentially obscene themes, scenes, and characters depicted and will likely face much more scrutiny in the future as it becomes more mainstream.

In any case, despite what all the fan boys might have to say about it, hentai is really no different than porn in the view of the law. If one becomes heavily regulated, so will the other in due time.

As for copyright law enforcement, I too support the use of massive fines and even multi-year jail terms for downloading and sharing multiple songs and movies. Serves the slumbering American public right for ignoring these penalties back when they were being written into law in the first place.

As for the endless copyright extensions that Disney & Co. keep pushing for and getting, well, I guess it's just a sign of the times. Disney uses stories in the public domain for their own gain and yet they refuse to allow creations of their own to enter the public domain in return.

Copyrights should allow the creator to profit from what they create, but they shouldn't last nearly as long as they do now (currently 95/120 years for publication/creation of corporate media, and this is extended every time Disney is about to lose sole control over their annoying mouse character).

[VacantEyes]

EDit. Lolicon is NOT illegal in teh United States but if it is a realistic computer generation then it can be deemed child pornography
EDit again: wait there was some guy that got charged with recieving lolicon along with real child porn

But I still think Lolicon is not illegal, it would be unconstituational and it has already been ruled on.

Many people seem to think that simply because the Supreme Court has ruled once or twice on any given issue that it must be set in stone. That simply isn't the case. As the makeup of the Supreme Court changes, so do their decisions. We have just recently seen a major shift to the right in today's Supreme Court, courtesy of our current administration. Laws that govern the legality of lolicon and hentai and all other media are not cut-and-dry; they can find most hentai legal in a deep blue state and yet find these same titles illegal in deep red state, or even by city/metro/county/zip.

If you want to make something available to the entire country, you need to water down your product enough so that it's unlikely to be considered obscene and/or is considered to have artistic merit in even the most conservative communities. Basically that means that it has to be rather tame and most hentai I've seen is far too graphic and sexually violent to be legal in every community in the US.

[onemanareme]

i have no idea what this hentai is about or rather i guess what it contains... can someone clue me in? hope it gets to me before friday. i dont watch hentai, its boring however there are some toons i do like that do have sex in them(like ninja scroll) its not the content i object to rather the pointlessness of a whole show about sex. i dont like the idea of getting jail time for looking at something i could draw myself though (flip book porn, yes!!) and where will they draw the line if they start getting to regulate everything. creative lisense was pointed out, what about the "i live to be 5000 so i look 15 but im 87, or in a cyborg body or a vampire or clone" anyway someone fill me in thanks. ps dont judge the future by the past.

[Leader Desslock]

It sounds like you were trying to call me out for being a hypocrite but inadvertently outed yourself instead?
Nah, I'm more active in advocacy of Education issues at the state level. I was more active on free speech issues in college, but since Maine has traditionally STOMPED censorship bills, it was an easy fight. Then again, I tended to educate people on issues like whether The Diary of Anne Frank was appropriate classroom material, it wasn't hard to get mainstream support. ^_^

[loplop]

Let's just give this subject a rest. The "Sky is Falling" mentality that so many people have about this is just getting old . . . .

[VacantEyes]

Let's just give this subject a rest. The "Sky is Falling" mentality that so many people have about this is just getting old . . . .

As is your narrow-minded Pollyanna viewpoint. If you don't want to discuss it, feel free to leave the thread at any time. This isn't just about lolicon; if it was there would be rather little for anyone to get worked up about as most of us would probably be just fine to see it go. However, I've seen enough hentai to know that much of it probably goes too far to be fully protected under free speech in the view of today's Supreme Court. Seriously. That alone doesn't mean it will ever be banned across the entire country, but chances are good that it will be added to the list of products that can't be sold in my community without risking legal costs associated with obscenity charges.

[animeotaku99]

IF lolicon is made illegal a lot of mangas wont get imported cuz some have a small amount of nudity, usually high schoool students (under 18)
and I want not4cahn to get back up and running

[Soluzar]

and I want not4chan to get back up and runningDid they go down because of the uncertain legal status of loli/shotacon? If so, then they may not come back at all.

[Ninja337]

Some things are better left undiscussed. Lolicon is banned from 4chan, not4chan is gone forever, God's in his heaven and all's right with the world. If lolicon turned out legal I wouldn't be happy.

[casper1927]

clue me in, is Lolicon legal in the UK and the rest of europe.

As i understand it as long as they are anime and not realistic CG, it is legal to watch lolicon in the UK

[Soluzar]

Some things are better left undiscussed. Lolicon is banned from 4chan, not4chan is gone forever, God's in his heaven and all's right with the world. If lolicon turned out legal I wouldn't be happy.
The idea of not4chan being gone forever is fine with me too, but I'm just curious to know whether they jumped, or were pushed.

[silencer]

clue me in, is Lolicon legal in the UK and the rest of europe.

As i understand it as long as they are anime and not realistic CG, it is legal to watch lolicon in the UK

AFAIK you are correct, as long as the lolicon stuff could not be mistaken for a photograph it is not illegal. However, customs still might not be too impressed if you got caught importing it.

[cris]

Not related to Anime Loli, but an update of what they are doing in U.S.A. in regards of real loli, I hear rumors that they are talking about it for anime as well, but for now, not anime.

NEW YORK - Credit card companies and the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children are joining forces to identify those who used credit cards to pay for child porn.

The effort’s organizers, Ernie Allen, head of the NECMC, and Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Alabama, say they hope to eliminate so-called “commercial child porn” by 2008, the Agape Press reported.

Allen said the program targets those who purchase $29 per month subscriptions to child porn sites using their credit cards. The point of the effort is to make child porn unprofitable by making it harder for pedophiles to pay for it.

With the help of Visa, MasterCard, American Express and Discover, as well as Bank of America, Chase, Citigroup and PayPal, the group hopes to identify and block those who use credit cards to buy child porn.

Though MasterCard and American Express say they won’t reveal customer identities unless they are forced to do so in court.

[grgspunk]

Did they go down because of the uncertain legal status of loli/shotacon? If so, then they may not come back at all.

Actually, I think the reason why it was closed down is because the owner of 4chan lost interest in funding and maintaining the site. It wasn't really because of legal issues, at least not from what I heard.

[Ninja337]

Actually, I think the reason why it was closed down is because the owner of 4chan lost interest in funding and maintaining the site. It wasn't really because of legal issues, at least not from what I heard.
Moot neither owns nor administrates not4chan.

[Sox]

I think Lilicon should stay legal for the simple FACT that they are not real children and adults are doing the voices. I think the main reason they're targeting Lilicon is because politicians feel it might encourage sex offenders to go out and offend. Which is ridiculous to think that we have to make laws to protect people from PROBABLY doing something. I mean, our children need to be protected and it should be our #1 priority. But Lilicon is NOT REAL CHILDREN.

[DocWatson]

From the Icarus Publishing site, blog entry "Stop! Don't Touch!" August 8, 2008 comments:

But enough politicizing, let's talk about sex. I f_ucking love Comic LO for those adverts. They're hilarious and they always make me feel special and like I'm part of a community that won't just roll over without a fight, even if I’m in a different country. Still! THE FIRST AMENDMENT! It's totally legal here. IT'S SCIENCE! Now we just need to convince a bunch of stodgy old Christians that freedom is freedom and drawn little girls getting f_cked hard is good for America.
(Censorship mine.)

Randall–>
In practical law, no, they're not legal. IMO most state-level obscenity laws violate the First Amendment… that doesn't stop states from having, and successfully employing them. And those would work exceptionally well against lolicon manga.

(Simon Jones is Icarus's publisher.)

[grgspunk]

I think Lilicon should stay legal for the simple FACT that they are not real children and adults are doing the voices. I think the main reason they're targeting Lilicon is because politicians feel it might encourage sex offenders to go out and offend. Which is ridiculous to think that we have to make laws to protect people from PROBABLY doing something. I mean, our children need to be protected and it should be our #1 priority. But Lilicon is NOT REAL CHILDREN.

Dude, this thread is over two years old. What exactly do you plan on doing necroposting a thread on a subject that had already been settled?

[am34]

what happened? hehe... just kidding.. :D

[ZeroRyoko1974]

Some things are better left undiscussed. Lolicon is banned from 4chan, not4chan is gone forever, God's in his heaven and all's right with the world. If lolicon turned out legal I wouldn't be happy.

hmmm gone forever. still seems to be there

[DocWatson]

hmmm gone forever. still seems to be there
<moderator> To paraphrase grgspunk: why are you responding to a post that is two years old?</moderator>

[Jatz]

One vote for locking. Anyone else?

[fujyoshi]

It is due to the fact that all the lolicon boards hve gone down for a while i think.

wow I guess a certain someone I know's forum will be going down soon /hmm

I think Lilicon should stay legal for the simple FACT that they are not real children and adults are doing the voices. I think the main reason they're targeting Lilicon is because politicians feel it might encourage sex offenders to go out and offend. Which is ridiculous to think that we have to make laws to protect people from PROBABLY doing something. I mean, our children need to be protected and it should be our #1 priority. But Lilicon is NOT REAL CHILDREN.

agreed I mean its not like they are bothering anyone wit it, unless they're running around saying that they like it or something but even so, they drawn so what else can they do to it other then wank basicly.

I guess they assume that a 2D complex can be turned to real life or something......but if that was the case then I would be a hoe bag by now o.o