Chapter 316 spoilers, Kage Bunshin edition

[Dan]

Ok, I was thinking about this eariler and Im ready to discuss it now. Kishimoto has caught himself in his own logic and Naruto's training now doesnt make sense.

Ok, so as we have learned, Kage Bunshins relay what they have done/learned to the creator. BUT, we see that this happens after it is cancelled, as in the rock/paper/scissors experiment.

Therefore, 1000 Bunshins focusing on the training would have to periodically cancel and reform to get anything out of the training, since they are all starting from square one, all 1000 of them technically have 20 years of training ahead of them. But when cancelled, it compounds and he can make them again with the benefit of their combined training.

Furthermore, they are a huge drain on his charka, so to get anything out of this training, he would have to constantly cancel and reform them, which I imagine he can only do like 3 times a day.

Yet, with all of them out there Naruto is progressing, so Kishimoto has either contradicted his own created logic, not properly explained said logic, or something else.

In any case, it doesnt make sense. But let me know what you think

[u_nick]

Ok, so as we have learned, Kage Bunshins relay what they have done/learned to the creator. BUT, we see that this happens after it is cancelled, as in the rock/paper/scissors experiment.


I think of it like this: If Naruto had to do it on his own, it might take him 20,000 tries to finally get it. With 1000 bunshins trying it at once, they would only have to try 20 times each, and when one (or more) or more finally get it, cancel the bunshin, and Naruto knows the skill quicker.


Furthermore, they are a huge drain on his charka, so to get anything out of this training, he would have to constantly cancel and reform them, which I imagine he can only do like 3 times a day.

I dont think so, simply because of Naruto's sheer amount of chakra. Like Kakashi said, he himself could only do it with a couple bunshin, and be tired right away. Naruto's almost limitless amount of Chakra at times simply makes him the perfect candidate for this training for the exact reason that he would NOT have to constantly be canceling and reforming.

Thats just how i see it anyway... :\

[DarkNataku]

yeah like the leaf exercise 1000 trying to cut a leaf with only chakra, only one got it. and kakashi said it was going faster than he thought. guess the next time he tries it it will be like 3 out of 1000 that get it until its 100% or just himself/alone. and now that he can tap into kyubi's chakra he can keep going that is why sai is there aswell. you guys think this might help him master his 4 tail transformation?

[Dan]

I think of it like this: If Naruto had to do it on his own, it might take him 20,000 tries to finally get it. With 1000 bunshins trying it at once, they would only have to try 20 times each, and when one (or more) or more finally get it, cancel the bunshin, and Naruto knows the skill quicker.


Im not sure you get what Im saying. So far what has been explained is that the learned portion is gained AFTER returning, hence why Naruto didnt know what the bunshins were doing in the forest until AFTER they were cancelled.

Therefore, 1000 bunshins doing the same thing ARENT connected during their training, so (taking your number examples) it would still take each 20,000 tries. If they each tried 20 times and then reformed (which they havent even done) he would still just have the experience of 20 tries, since they all just did the exact same thing. Imagine if me and 10 more of me played the first stage of Super Mario Bros., combining what we've accomplished is still only the first stage, not up to the 5th world or something.

Thats where Im saying the logic fails. Its because they arent connected during their training.

That doesnt mean it isnt fun to read, just lost in its own made up logic.

[DarkNataku]

Imagine if me and 10 more of me played the first stage of Super Mario Bros., combining what we've accomplished is still only the first stage, not up to the 5th world or something.

well with ur example lets say that u play the first lvl, then one other u plays the next. until each of u can do that lvl fast enough and without errors. basically when u pass the remote u are passing your score (in naruto's case knowledge) so the next you can take it even higher, until u beat the game. staying with the game ex. lets say u buy a new game, play it and beat it in 14 hrs. then u play that game later and you beat it in 12hrs then each time it shortens until the time u beat the game is only minutes or secs. well just bc we dont see them cancel and reform doesnt mean it didnt happen. im sure naruto will take a break and eat ramen or something.

[MightyDustLoop]

Maybe consistent cancels and reseparation is the REAL training. Ok, probably not, but after three years of supposedly hardcore training, we should probably just assume he has near limitless chakra when it comes to Kage Bunshin. Even if he's no Sasuke, he's supposedly been training hardcore after all.

[Dan]

well with ur example lets say that u play the first lvl, then one other u plays the next. until each of u can do that lvl fast enough and without errors. basically when u pass the remote u are passing your score (in naruto's case knowledge) so the next you can take it even higher, until u beat the game. staying with the game ex. lets say u buy a new game, play it and beat it in 14 hrs. then u play that game later and you beat it in 12hrs then each time it shortens until the time u beat the game is only minutes or secs. well just bc we dont see them cancel and reform doesnt mean it didnt happen. im sure naruto will take a break and eat ramen or something.

So... you agree with me? At least it seems you get that they cant benefit each other when training simultaneously (doing the same thing, at least).

Although I think because he hasnt shown it to us it hasnt happened. That isnt a given off screen thing, especially since when you invent new logic, its important to see it through so your audience fully understands.

[Naster]

you are assuming that all of them are doing the exact same thing, which is rediculous. you forget about the power of communication. they can easily tell eachother what is working and what isn't working. simple as that. with over 1000 bunshin working together with communication they wouldnt all be trying the same exact (20?) things like you are saying.

[u_nick]

you are assuming that all of them are doing the exact same thing, which is ridiculous. you forget about the power of communication. they can easily tell each other what is working and what isn't working. simple as that. with over 1000 bunshin working together with communication they wouldn't all be trying the same exact (20?) things like you are saying.

true

also, only one of them needs to learn it really. once one figures it out, he says "Hey guys, I figured it out!" and they cancel the bunshin.

I can see where the logic of all having connected might be viable for further into the training, but for this particular exercise, i done see the need for connection to the other bunshins.

[DarkNataku]

^yeah you can split urself into a group of 5, 200 in each group and try something different than what the others are trying

[Dan]

^yeah you can split urself into a group of 5, 200 in each group and try something different than what the others are trying

Thats exactly my point. They arent doing anything different.

We're all saying the same thing. You guys just keep adding things the bunshins are "doing" without it actually being in the manga, like talking to each other, or canceling and reforming.

[Naster]

i really don't get what you are trying to say. are you saying just because it isnt in the manga means that it isn't happening? if so then that is rediculous. do you think that no one trained over the 3 year time lapse because it wasn't shown?

[DarkNataku]

^lol. got you there. they just grew taller and did nothing. just wait for kishi to start writing again. just like anime there are things that happen off screen so i wouldnt be shocked if it happen to manga.

[Dan]

Wow, your comprehension of this does not cease to amaze me.

do you think that no one trained over the 3 year time lapse because it wasn't shown?

It was explained to us that training happened. I never said anything about off screen as not occuring. Reread my first post carefully before commenting. Like the training, the interworking of Kage Bunshins were explained in detail, but then fail to follow through with their explanation. Thats what Im saying.

are you saying just because it isnt in the manga means that it isn't happening?

bingo. off screen = in the manga,
Luffy searching for one piece, communication between bunshins = not in the manga

^lol. got you there. they just grew taller and did nothing. just wait for kishi to start writing again. just like anime there are things that happen off screen so i wouldnt be shocked if it happen to manga.

wow.

edit:
ok, keep in mind that he could still show this happening, Im just saying so far it hasnt happened.

[u_nick]

yeah, i'm of the mindset that we can just assume that's whats happening. :\