Response to July 13 Ask John Article

[John]

The following response to the "Are Fansubs Responsible for the Declines in American Anime Sales? (http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=1355)" was sent to me by e-mail, and I thought it was worth sharing, for possible discussion.

I thought I would weigh in on this issue. As a fairly long time anime consumer (10 years), I feel that I should have a say in my own reasons on why my own purchasing habits have declined. For the most part, you are correct in the fact that anime companies are at fault for their own sales numbers. Tactics such as repricing and restructuring releases at lower prices to entice new viewers are the exact reason I do not buy new releases as soon as they become available. Not only that, but the number of releases has grown exponentially compared to 5 years ago. The average consumer cannot keep up and buy every release they wish to keep up with. If you couple that with companies licensing shows before they've even generated any interest and you'll find that many companies are shooting themselves in the foot. It's the very basic law of supply and demand, with supply way outweighing demand. Sure, the anime fanbase is growing, but those new fans have more than enough anime to choose from that's already been released. Do companies really think that putting out more titles is going to generate more sales? That seems illogical to me.

[Anime Gee]

Yes. In the past few years, there have been way too many titles released. I've gotten to the point of being extremely picky with anime because of that. Then the pricing starts getting out of hand as well. A DVD with 3 episodes for about $25 or so? Especially if it's a series of 26 episodes to 500 episodes! Yeah... ('_' )

[ZeroRyoko1974]

I can go to best buy, and can't find a single dvd in their anime section, that I either don't want, or have seen. There is just to much stuff out there. I rarely will buy a dvd that I haven't seen at least one episode of previously.

[Area88]

There's no denying the fact that online distirubtion of anime has had some negative impact on sales. The whole 'why buy the dvd when you can download it for free' mentality.

In 2004 anime sales declined for the first time. The same time BitTorrent was becoming the most popular form of distribtution. Anime sites for using this new technology quickly spread.

While companies like ADV and Funimation have tackled websites that distribute their licensed material in the past. I feel more still needs to be done, they should consider hiring personnel to monitor retailers, online auction and torrent sites whether it's on a daily, weekly or monthly basis.

Overall i felt John's diverse awnser was perfect since it's never just one factor but a combination of many i.e. market saturation, cheaper re-releases, lack of retail exposure (retailers returning stock after a month), lack of tv exposure (cartoon network becoming more picky), poor choice in licenses are just a few of the possible explanations.

[Teppei]

I find it interesting that people are referring to the amount of anime available affecting their decision making.

I would think (basically in agreement with John) that the amount of money fans are willing to spend on anime has basically been constant, but the amount of anime they expect that money to purchase has increased (DVDs are now expected to cost less and contain more footage).

However, I wonder if else something is going on, too. The increased amount of anime seems to have made people more careful shoppers. I think originally anime was something of a rarity, and as such, it could command higher prices. Now that so much more is available, it doesn't cause people to view it as a special item, and consequently they 1) expect the pricing to be in-line with non-anime DVDs, and 2) it no longer has that uniqueness quality which made it more attractive.

Very hard to say which of these factors is the leading one I think. Maybe if John could find some volume of sales vs. price points data for us :) .

[inuyasha_junkie]

why dont people in canada ever see anime like eurika 7 or samurai champloo?!?!?!

[Samurai Drifter]

If anime were more popular there would be enough of a demand to meet the supply.

As it is now though, the anime industry greatly over estimated how big their market was. There just aren't enough consumers to buy the huge variety of series that are coming out now.

Once the anime fanbase grows more prices will go down and the industry will start gaining money again. I believe this is what's called a "market correction". As I've said so often the fanbase grew a huge amount, but comparatively it's still very small.

[Baka Deshi]

I almost always wait until a cheap box set is released before I buy anything, and I'm pretty sure a lot of fans do the same. I believe companies should get wise to this trend and start trying to do that sooner.

[Crawlspace]

I would think (basically in agreement with John) that the amount of money fans are willing to spend on anime has basically been constant
Actually, I think we need to rethink that a bit. Or maybe change willing to able. Personally, I now have less money to spend on anime than when I started out, even though my income has increased. Why? I was an employed student living at home with no bills when I started collecting anime. Now I'm an employed independent adult with bills that keep increasing and taking more of my disposable income. Others in my age group have gone from single with money to burn to married with families that require more of our anime money. Add in that new fans coming in from the Cartoon Network boom (where it was free) were in middle school or younger with no income to spend on dvds. A lot of the brand new fandom is of the same ilk - too young to be gainfully employed and discovering free anime on cable.

So the amount fans are willing/able to spend has changed as the fandom has evolved. Some of us older ones just don't have the money any more because of obligations and the younger ones are so used to it being either free (thanks for the cable, Mom!) or cheap (standard tv shows and bargin releases that are now common), they're not as willing as we once were to put out $30 for a 2 episode sub only VHS tape.

[Soluzar]

Some of us older ones just don't have the money any more because of obligations and the younger ones are so used to it being either free (thanks for the cable, Mom!) or cheap (standard tv shows and bargin releases that are now common), they're not as willing as we once were to put out $30 for a 2 episode sub only VHS tape.
That's not really a problem though, because instead of 30 bucks for a 2 episode sub-only VHS tape, you actually get 4 episode DVDs, with dual-audio for about 18 bucks if you're prepared to shop around. They aren't asked to spend as much as we once were.

I think that what's hurting the industry a lot more is the number of substandard titles on the market. There are so many titles right now that I wouldn't even watch for free. It also can't help that there are a lot of titles that I wouldn't even consider buying the DVD release of, because I already saw them on VHS several times, and I just don't want to own them again. I think in that regard I'm not untypical of the older anime fan.

[Crawlspace]

That's not really a problem though, because instead of 30 bucks for a 2 episode sub-only VHS tape, you actually get 4 episode DVDs, with dual-audio for about 18 bucks if you're prepared to shop around. They aren't asked to spend as much as we once were.
That was really just meant as a random example to show that people where once willing to spend more than they are now. ^_^ But really, to them it's the same thing. A 4 episode dvd for $25 - $30 (these folks shop at FYE, they don't know how to shop around), when they can get an entire season of Family Guy or Dawson's Creek for $40, feels like a rip off. I see it here from a lot of people as well, even though they've been around for long enough to know anime and broadcast tv are two different animals.

[Soluzar]

That was really just meant as a random example to show that people where once willing to spend more than they are now. ^_^ But really, to them it's the same thing. A 4 episode dvd for $25 - $30 (these folks shop at FYE, they don't know how to shop around), when they can get an entire season of Family Guy or Dawson's Creek for $40, feels like a rip off. I see it here from a lot of people as well, even though they've been around for long enough to know anime and broadcast tv are two different animals.

All I'm saying is that anime DVDs deliver more than anime VHS used to. It still seems like a lot to me, which is why I shop around, and keep my eyes open for a good deal.

[yuzuha]

Can't afford to buy every dvd that comes out anymore, especially when much of the recent crop doesn't really fit my tastes anyway (I am waiting for more Tenchi, Hare+Guu, GiTS and Naruto, but holding off on other stuff until something like Vampire Miyu, Black Jack, Otogi Zoshi, Requiem from the Darkness etc. comes out)

[sazae]

^ Wow, look who came back. Missed you yuzuha. Until Black Jack gets picked up and released as does Monster I am having a hard time buying anything new that isn't part of a series I am in the middle of, i.e. Hajime no Ippo.

[yuzuha]

ROFL, I drop in from time to time... just suffering from an overdose of "moe" so aside from those I mentioned, the last things I bought were chrono crusade (R.O.D meets X ^_^?) and Mermaid Forest. Been watching Gilgamesh on the anime network and buying more samurai flicks and horror series, like Tomie, lately so I haven't had much to comment on here.

[Hisoka]

Lots of great things have already been touched on. I personally have slowed down in the past few months for different reasons. I've reached the point where I've seen about 90% of everything currently being released on DVD via fansubs. Now it's more of buying things when I feel like re-watching them rather then buying DVDs to watch a series I've never seen before. So with that being said, I've become slightly more picky then I used to be. I usually don't complain about DVD prices and feel that most of the prices are very fair since I've been an anime fan almost my entire life and endured having to pay for fansubs back in the day and the incredibly expensive licensed VHS days with about 2 eps a tape.

I try not to get caught up in wanting to have every DVD that reaches shelves and have been saving money more often lately. As of right now most of my normal DVD funds have been used toward my growing cel collection and let me say... that's an even more dangerous hobby. -_-;

[Krueger]

I've always said that cheap re-packagings of anime series will hinder the market. Why buy singles when you can get the cheap boxset later? Buying singles is what keeps this market running, not the boxsets which often operate at a loss.

As for fansubs, I never thought they actually helped the market in the first place. Some may argue that they build hype and what not, but these are the same people that won't buy the show once it's out. This is what essentially hurts this niche market.

If anime is so expensive that you must resort to downloading/stealing it, then find another hobby. Anime is not a right.

[Philemon]

If anime is so expensive that you must resort to downloading/stealing it, then find another hobby. Anime is not a right.

I fail to understand the entitlement mentality of anime fans. I find it materialistic and egoistic.

[Area88]

I fail to understand the entitlement mentality of anime fans. I find it materialistic and egoistic.

Actually Krueger is right. Anime is a privilege not a right.

If anything its egotistical to suggest your entitled to aquire anime for free.

While i accept fansubs is still a grey area, downloading dvd rips is simply unacceptable.

[Mokkori-ou]

I also believe that fansubs effect anime sales, but not in the same way most people think(The-why-buy-it-when-you-can-download-it-for-free attitude).

When someone watches fansubs they can form an opinion on how good the entire or most of show is, how high the re-watchability factor is, if it's worth buying or not, and all doing this long before the first R1 DVD comes out or before it airs on the Cartoon Network. As a result we have more people that know that 90% of anime that's being released these days isn't worth buying in the longrun(i.e. it holds up poorly to repeat viewing's or you don't have any desire to watch all of a series more then once).

[Gundampilotspaz]

It's just easier to download a show as it comes out than to wait a year or so to watch it as it comes out on DVD.

Add that onto the price.... and it's a no brainer why anime DVD sales are declining.

However there may be a new generation of Anime fans coming around the corner soon that might pick up with what we have left behind.

[Samurai Drifter]

The new generation of fans is already here (at least the generation after ours).

The last generation was what I call the Ranma 1/2 generation. It started in the mid 90's and continued until early 2000's. Beginning in probably 2004 though, what I call the InuYasha generation started.

There are equivalents in each generation.

last generation this generation's equivalent
------------- -------------------------
Ranma 1/2 - InuYasha
Dragon Ball Z - Naruto
Pokemon - Yu-Gi-Oh!
Evangelion - Fullmetal Alchemist

They are equivalents because of the various fanbases each has accumulated. Ranma 1/2 was the one drawing in all the new fans in the 90s. It was the one that was EVERYWHERE in the fandom. Nowadays InuYasha does that.

DBZ and Naruto, pretty self expanatory. It will create armies of children running around doing Kage Bushin no Jutsu's instead of firing off kamehameha's. It will become massively popular among kids around the age of 10, but still retain an adult cult following.

Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! - Show practically made to market the games, hurrah!

FMA and Evangelion - Not too sure about this one, but I think it's become one of the major hits among otaku much like Evangelion. And it has its share of detractors.

[Crawlspace]

However there may be a new generation of Anime fans coming around the corner soon that might pick up with what we have left behind.
Except the problem with this is that the "InuYasha Generation" (I like that, good term!) isn't used to spending money on anime the way the generation before them was, and certainly not to the extent people were 10 or 15 years ago. There's a heck of a lot more of it on tv now than there was 5 or so years ago, and complete tv shows for cheap are now a norm. So are cheap anime boxsets. This newer generation coming in from CN is already less willing to spend the kind of money people were a few years ago. It's not just because of one factor, like fansubs, but a whole range of things that affect how they view not just the anime market, but the video market as a whole.

[Samurai Drifter]

Except the problem with this is that the "InuYasha Generation" (I like that, good term!) isn't used to spending money on anime the way the generation before them was, and certainly not to the extent people were 10 or 15 years ago. There's a heck of a lot more of it on tv now than there was 5 or so years ago, and complete tv shows for cheap are now a norm. So are cheap anime boxsets. This newer generation coming in from CN is already less willing to spend the kind of money people were a few years ago. It's not just because of one factor, like fansubs, but a whole range of things that affect how they view not just the anime market, but the video market as a whole.
I think it's more that the generation is still new to anime. No one's used to spending as much money for videos/DVDs as they spend on anime when they first get into it. I think that maybe when this generation has gone on a little longer they may be more willing to fork out the cash. Cheap anime box sets are becoming more common, too, which is a good thing.

[sfried]

Actually Krueger is right. Anime is a privilege not a right.

If anything its egotistical to suggest your entitled to aquire anime for free.

While i accept fansubs is still a grey area, downloading dvd rips is simply unacceptable.
However, I do not agree with Krueger's argument that you need huge $$$ in order to make anime as a hobby. (Especially if you are one of the folks who prefer quality over quantity)

Being picky about the anime your choose to own is one of the key essentials in saving money. If you feel a certain show or series only needs to be seen once, then borrow from a friend or rent at a library (or campus library. You sometimes won't believe they carry stuff that even Blockbuster wouldn't carry around). Buy only the shows you'd feel confident about watching again, or if you really like it (as in REALLY like it). Don't be too obliged to own a series just because it's popular among other anime crowd (like Evangelion, or hell, even Azumaga).

Also, looking for discounts is another aspect. Some of the older series are likely to be on sale somewhere. (As much as conventions might offer them, the better prices are always online)

And finally, look for box sets. If you're picky about collectibles, that might be another issue. But if you just want to watch the show, then slim packs are the way to go.

[Crawlspace]

Cheap anime box sets are becoming more common, too, which is a good thing.
For the fans, perhaps, but general concensus across companies is that those cheap boxes hurt more than they help with the way they're now being produced, because fewer people are buying singles as a result. Problem is, they've created a monster, and now they don't seem to know how to reign it in.

[Area88]

For the fans, perhaps, but general concensus across companies is that those cheap boxes hurt more than they help with the way they're now being produced, because fewer people are buying singles as a result. Problem is, they've created a monster, and now they don't seem to know how to reign it in.

Agreed, even the hardcore fans who used to buy the singles are now just waiting for the thinpack or the latest Anime Legends brick.

Companies need to either increase the price of thinpacks reducing the difference between it and the singles.

Or find yet another way to lure fans into buying the singles over the thinpacks.

[Sendo Takeshi]

I guess the HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray format war is gonna kill anime for good then.

[Crawlspace]

I guess the HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray format war is gonna kill anime for good then.
Not likely. I can't even imagine how you'd come to a conclusion like that. Assuming either format survives, anime will just move on to the winner. The same way it did from VHS to DVD. Until a real next gen format comes along, anime will just keep chugging along on DVD. The R1 companies aren't Hollywood, and they aren't even touching this stuff right now. They're sitting back to let the big studios battle it out, realizing that the average individual has no use for either at the moment.

[yuzuha]

Wish they'd put singles in thinpacks. I ran out of space a long time ago!

[SAB-CA]

I always have to wonder why people release thinpacks for series that have barely been on a shelf. Of why to even release a cheaper-priced boxset on the SAME DAY you relase the final DVD of a series.

I think another thing that has persuaded my modern-day anime purchasing has been the crush these shows have to generally be so singularly thematic... such as guys shows all having loads of blatant fanservice. And the marketing has become alot more bold and direct, which might make it feel a bit more... average? -shrug-

I'm one of few fans who never watches fansubs online unless it's from a series that seems like it'll never, ever pop up over here, so I can't comment on them.

[birdcat]

I agree that there is an oversaturation of anime on the market. I couldn't begin to hope to buy everything I want to see in this year, or the next two years for that matter. That said, another factor in the decline of sales, is the economy. The economy isn't so great right now, and with prices like gas, among other things, on the rise, spending (especially on an already niche item such as anime) is logically going to drop.

EDIT: on releasing Thin packs, some people really do prefer/need to buy thin packs. Kids living with their parents, in college dorms, or simply those with a limited amount of space for dvd storage, prefer buying thin paks in order to save space. I own five or six full sized boxsets, and I'm wishing I had thin packs. I have other dvds besides just anime lying around in 'safe spots' all around my apartment because I've run out of room on my dvd case, and i don't have room for anymore storage units.

[inuyasha_junkie]

when is y.t.v gonna get samurai champloo

[inuyasha_junkie]

why dont people in canada ever see anime like eurika 7 or samurai champloo?!?!?!


ok... i have to make a correction... we now get eurika 7 on ytv.