John, will you watch Haruhi again in right order when it's finished? [Archive]

mugener

June 28th, 2006, 10:26 AM

I found that some people include you complain the strange eps order of this anime. :|

Just try it with right order, and people like you will find out that the strange order you are complaining about is actully one of the best thing in anime history. :)

I mean, com'on! just how many animes have we saw, was there any anime dare to try this way, NO ONE!

Haruhi did it, and the result is just sooo GOOD~~!!! :P

.

Starchild

June 28th, 2006, 10:54 AM

I'm among people who's curious if John liked it or not.

ZeroRyoko1974

June 28th, 2006, 02:59 PM

You can check his viewing thread at the top of this section. He has been watching it, but questions the idea of its chronological randomness as a way to create a narrative. I am curious as well as to what this series would be like in chronological order.

John

June 29th, 2006, 07:50 AM

At least according to the latest issue of Megami Magazine, it's not really possible to watch Suzumiya Haruhi in chronological order because some of the episodes don't have an obvious place in the linear story continuity. But that's beside the point.

Broadcasting the episodes out of order is a neat theory, but the problem with doing it is that it interrupts a sense of character development. Just as we get to know character personalities and get used to character relationships, we're suddenly faced with the same characters but less developed relationships and less revealing personalities. Flashbacks are one thing, but literally stopping forward progress to suddenly go backward seems contrary to the effective development of narrative.

I'm honestly conflicted about the Suzumiya Haruhi anime. I have to respect its technical animation quality. The characters are fun, but still stock stereotypes. The characters in the show aren't realistic, so they're not entirely believable. After all, they include an alien, a time traveler, a mysterious psychic, and possibly a god. The show may appeal to many viewers as a type of wish fulfillment, but I don't find myself relating to the characters and wishing that I was part of the SOS Dan myself. I don't personally identify with the show, so I can only appreciate it on a technical level, where it has some outstanding points, and also some weaknesses. So, in effect, I like the show, but I'm not compulsively devoted to it, and I don't think it's the greatest thing ever.

aorta

June 29th, 2006, 01:01 PM

The characters are fun, but still stock stereotypes. The characters in the show aren't realistic, so they're not entirely believable. After all, they include an alien, a time traveler, a mysterious psychic, and possibly a god. The show may appeal to many viewers as a type of wish fulfillment, but I don't find myself relating to the characters and wishing that I was part of the SOS Dan myself.

But isn't this is a problem with the original source material and not the anime itself?

Leader Desslock

June 29th, 2006, 01:25 PM

I'm not certain why achronological narrative is considered a problem. It's a technique, just like ... foreshadowing, flashbacks, etc. One loses traditional character/plot development in favor of... whatever the author is trying to achieve by using the technique.

The only question I have: Is the technique being used effectively or not? Is the author achieving his/her goal by using the technique, or is it just a flashy gimmick?

An example of where an achronological narrative is used to achieve an effect that straight storytelling would not have achieved: Catch-22. And hey, let's throw Slaughterhouse Five on there as well.

What can it achieve? Well, you can show a character's perspective on a situation along with his reactions to the situation as it unfolds. That can present the maturation of the character in a way that a chronological narrative can't always achieve. Anyone who's read Catch-22 knows that after Snowden's death, EVERYTHING changes. All the same situations that were sidesplittingly funny before become very dark and tragic afterwards.

Whether it's done effectively or not, I'm looking forward to seeing Haruhi when it's released. Meta-level narratives are my favorites, and this sounds like one of the most intelligent titles I've heard about in a long time.

EDIT: Umm.. it's achronological, not asynchronous. Been doing too mucn programming, I think... -_-;

sfried

June 29th, 2006, 06:24 PM

The characters in the show aren't realistic, so they're not entirely believable. After all, they include an alien, a time traveler, a mysterious psychic, and possibly a god. The show may appeal to many viewers as a type of wish fulfillment, but I don't find myself relating to the characters and wishing that I was part of the SOS Dan myself. I don't personally identify with the show, so I can only appreciate it on a technical level, where it has some outstanding points, and also some weaknesses.
So would you consider this a just "moe" anime, then? Or is there actually some intelligent thought put into the series?

CyberNinja5

June 29th, 2006, 09:02 PM

HitokiriShadow

June 29th, 2006, 09:33 PM

I'm not certain why achronological narrative is considered a problem. It's a technique, just like ... foreshadowing, flashbacks, etc. One loses traditional character/plot development in favor of... whatever the author is trying to achieve by using the technique.

The only question I have: Is the technique being used effectively or not? Is the author achieving his/her goal by using the technique, or is it just a flashy gimmick?

I think so. It may cause problems for people who can't remember back farther than one episodes, but it does, in my opinion, work well. The purpose seems to be to end with a particular part from the novel at the end in order to go out with a bang. It's also interesting because you find out about things later and then you want to go back and check and see if the chronologically later episodes that had already aired took that into account and, in at least one particular instance, you may well miss it until you see the episode that the change occurs in.

In addition, some of the earlier aired but chronologically later episodes may make references to things that hadn't been shown yet and make you go "what are they talking about" and possibly whet your appetite for when it is actually shown. Also, it allows you time to make some theories based on things going on in later (chronological) episodes which may be proven or squashed when the key episodes finally air.

Also, the achronological episode order makes for interesting previews at times.

I've heard that the Japanese DVDs will have the episodes in chronological order, but I'm not sure if that's true or not. If they are, then the R1 DVDs will likely be the same way.

Joeshie

June 29th, 2006, 09:34 PM

I'm honestly conflicted about the Suzumiya Haruhi anime. I have to respect its technical animation quality. The characters are fun, but still stock stereotypes. The characters in the show aren't realistic, so they're not entirely believable. After all, they include an alien, a time traveler, a mysterious psychic, and possibly a god. The show may appeal to many viewers as a type of wish fulfillment, but I don't find myself relating to the characters and wishing that I was part of the SOS Dan myself. I don't personally identify with the show, so I can only appreciate it on a technical level, where it has some outstanding points, and also some weaknesses. So, in effect, I like the show, but I'm not compulsively devoted to it, and I don't think it's the greatest thing ever.

Going for realistic characters in this situation would have dragged the show down. Yuki is the Rei-clone with no emotions, which works because she is an alien being who has never experienced emotions. Giving her a regular personality would have been odd considering her backround.

HitokiriShadow

June 29th, 2006, 09:48 PM

And she actually DOES have a personality. It's just very subdued.

SeannyB

June 29th, 2006, 09:53 PM

So would you consider this a just "moe" anime, then? Or is there actually some intelligent thought put into the series?
It's kinda hard to sum up Haruhi as "just another moé" show. Although most of the time it falls into cliches and uses archetypes, often it'll consciously parody, toy with, reverse or subvert those same genre expectations. It's sort-of like calling Evangelion or Patlabor "just another one of those toy commercial mecha shows". It's a little bit more than a plain genre anime, even though it totally resides in a world of genre expectations.

Joeshie

June 29th, 2006, 09:57 PM

And she actually DOES have a personality. It's just very subdued.

I suspect that she develops a sort of personality over the series, but only extremely slowly. It would appear that initially, her kind of being completely lacks the emotions that humans possess. Although, you can tell that she slowly starts to develop emotions as the series progresses.

John

June 30th, 2006, 10:30 AM

I don't think of Suzumiya Haruhi as just a moe show. It has fan service, but it is also intelligent and somewhat substantial, although not quite a philosophical as many other shows. I've never said that Suzumiya Haruhi is a bad show. I simply question whether it really deserves quite the degree of celebrity it's gotten.

It's true that the characters come from the original source novels, but that doesn't particularly matter because the anime has to stand alone since it's a TV series. If it was an OAV series, it could be specifically designed for only viewers who are familiar with the original novels. But since it's a TV series, it has to be aware that not everyone who watches it will be familiar with its source material. So the fact that the stereotypical characters come from the original novel doesn't change the fact that they are stereotypical characters.

I think SeannyB summarized the show well when he compared it to Evangelion & Patlabor. It's a revisionist genre anime that resides within convention, but also brings a bit of unique originality to the mix by slightly changing the typical formula for its genre.

mugener

June 30th, 2006, 02:10 PM

SeannyB

July 1st, 2006, 01:27 AM

Haruhi is the first overhyped show in a long time that actually deserves some of its hype, so I'm not bothered by the attention it gets. If it's not Haruhi, it's something dull like Fate/Stay or Mai-Otome getting all the attention.

bidule

July 1st, 2006, 08:57 AM

Not false...

Both FSN and Mai Otome did get that much attention because most animefans had great expectations on these two series, with past succesful series to build said expections upon : fans of Tsukihime and of the FSN eroge for FSN and fans of Mai Hime for Mai Otome.

To Haruhi's credit, all there was before the anime was a series of mediocre novels. KyoAni did not only provided high quality animation and drawnings, but their idea to differ the revelation of Haruhi's powers, which initialy took place in the first novel, was brilliant and confered a really enjoyable kind of tension to the series.

That being said, the characters are stereotypicals, and humor-side there is not much to enjoy save for the private jokes aimed at the anime, moe or videogaming crowds. My guess is that SHnY is one of this kind of anime that appeal mainly to otakus, which would enjoy the hell out of it, but may be boring for other people.

mugener

July 5th, 2006, 08:57 AM

ok, john, now that the show is over, make sure you watched it with strange order(Kyon's order) and right order(Haruhi's order) to understand what did you miss. :)

trust me, even watch this show with closed mind, it's still too good to be ignored, and that's really painfull for those who want to hate it. :)

oh, and the most important thing :

the most HUGE reason why so many fans hype this show, is because they are telling an truth to other anime companies:

If you are making anime with heart and effort, then you are god and prided by us.
If you don't, then get lose, nobody will support you, nobody.

guess animes fan have already get tired with so many anime that are just made for earning fans' money with as little effort as possible. :)

.

bidule

July 7th, 2006, 02:27 PM

If you are making anime with heart and effort, then you are god and prided by us.
If you don't, then get lose, nobody will support you, nobody.

I don't intend it as a flame but...

Mushishi was made with heart and effort. Where is the huge over-hyping fanbase ?

himura_kenshin

July 10th, 2006, 06:40 AM

I personally felt that the anachronism was brilliant (if not a little frustrating at times) as it created an air of mystery to the series, and tied the overal theme together - that the world is as Haruhi wants it to be. She's even listed as the "ultra director" in the opening credits.

Another thing that I felt that I don't think that others may have, is that while Haruhi is the series' namesake, she is not the main character - Kyon is. He's also the biggest unsolved mystery. At the final moments of episode 14 (chronological episode 6) we understand his purpose, but still not entirely who he is ... or even what his real name is. Also unexplained is how his existance will effect Haruhi down the line.

Another critism that I found unfair is that most of the main characters are unoriginal and stereotypical. Once again, I feel that this was intentional - not necessarily because it makes them marketable and/or easy to relate to - but because that is the way that Haruhi wanted them to be. She was seeking out very specific characteristics for members of the S.O.S. Brigade and found them because she willed them into existance to fit those characteristics.

John

Dark_Sage

July 18th, 2006, 08:55 AM

Tch, John's treatment of the anime is quite harsh. I imagine this is because it is gaining in popularity among many anime circles and John likes to think that he's unique in his tastes. The problem is, why do you give a **** about what John or this site even? Hate him for his immense ******ry and wapanese tendencies.

I only managed to find my way here by trying to find out what to call the order of the series. (Anachronistic, thanks kenshin.) But I may as well take my shot at this elitist prick while I'm here.

The way they pulled this series off was absolutely superb.

The anachronistic technique they used could be construed as a plot twist in that it keeps you guessing and at the final episode it's revealed what really happened. They did this stylishly and without the common character with "amnesia."

As for the characters, they fit together extremely well. Kyon is a down-to-earth guy who calls ******** on some of the more outlandish things done in the series. I would go as far to say that he portrays the viewer in a sense, he has a calm and detached view of things although he's right in the middle of them. Haruhi is ****ing comedy compacted into an engine of destruction. She keeps things light and interesting by balancing out Kyon's mellow and uninspired mood. As for the other three main characters, they work together in that they are all united because of Haruhi but they have their own goals and are led by the mysterious agendas of their leaders.

People I've showed this series to who haven't watched much (if any at all) anime before absolutely fell in love with this series. This show isn't a parody or something that leeches off of others in its genre, it's a stand-alone series, and a damn good one at that.

Maybe you should know that this **** isn't my favorite series, I just think you're a judgmental douchebag who can't appreciate a good anime. Try coming up with some good critiques next time.

Victory

July 18th, 2006, 10:26 AM

Tch, John's t...

http://img318.imageshack.us/img318/9701/sageze0.jpg
take your flamebait and get out

SeannyB

July 18th, 2006, 10:33 AM

[...]ouch... gb2/4chan

In all seriousness it's interesting to see the different ways people watch, enjoy, or not enjoy Haruhi -- in terms of what's the correct way to watch it, what should be taken seriously and what should be considered parody. Is it ever for real or is it always being funny?

To me it was always being funny, awkwardly whacking together and contrasting a huge array of anime cliches and genres, stretching archetypes to absurd degrees (a tsundere character having the powers of god, a "moe" character being an agent from the future, etc.), imbuing a school comedy with aspects and the aesthetics of mind-trip anime, having absurd sci-fi action scenes out of nowhere, so on and so fourth. To me that was the idea of Haruhi -- to be a parody through contrast -- and the reason I found it so fun to watch. Plus Kyon's tsukkomis (reactions) were usually funny.

Then there are those who took the story and characters at face value as a straight-forward drama/comedy. I think John and a lot of others have watched it this way, and it's possible to watch it that way I guess since it's reasonably amusing and well-made by itself. I also remember someone going as far to argue that the philosophical aspects were the driving point of the series (huh?).

Usually those with an intense hatred of the series criticize it for catering too much to the otaku fanbase with its typical characters and typical anime fetishism while peppering it with inane gimmickry.

Dark_Sage

July 18th, 2006, 10:48 AM

Oh hey kids, you must hang out around /a/ or something. No? /y/ was it? Oh right, you kids aren't old enough for 4chan. Drop by Gaiaonline sometime, I'd imagine they're better suited for your kind.

Oh and sage goes in e-mail field.

SeannyB

July 18th, 2006, 10:53 AM

>> Oh hey kids, you must hang out around /a/ or something. No? /y/ was it? Oh right, you kids aren't old enough for 4chan. Drop by Gaiaonline sometime, I'd imagine they're better suited for your kind.

NO U

Dark_Sage

July 18th, 2006, 10:56 AM

O rly?

Desu~ Desu~ Desu~ Desu~ Desu~ Desu~ Desu~ Desu~ Desu~ Desu~ Desu~ Desu~ Desu~ Desu~ Desu~ Desu~ Desu~ Desu~ Desu~ Desu~

ZeroRyoko1974

July 19th, 2006, 07:24 AM

ya rly
GAO>DESU

I think Haruhi would be kind of anticlimatic watched in chronilogical order. Most of the fluff episodes occured later chronilogically. In the end, I liked Haruhi in the order that it was presented.

Baka Deshi

July 19th, 2006, 10:05 AM

I like where this thread is going.

Joeshie

July 19th, 2006, 10:31 AM

Tch, John's treatment of the anime is quite harsh. I imagine this is because it is gaining in popularity among many anime circles and John likes to think that he's unique in his tastes. The problem is, why do you give a **** about what John or this site even? Hate him for his immense ******ry and wapanese tendencies.

I only managed to find my way here by trying to find out what to call the order of the series. (Anachronistic, thanks kenshin.) But I may as well take my shot at this elitist prick while I'm here.

The way they pulled this series off was absolutely superb.

The anachronistic technique they used could be construed as a plot twist in that it keeps you guessing and at the final episode it's revealed what really happened. They did this stylishly and without the common character with "amnesia."

As for the characters, they fit together extremely well. Kyon is a down-to-earth guy who calls ******** on some of the more outlandish things done in the series. I would go as far to say that he portrays the viewer in a sense, he has a calm and detached view of things although he's right in the middle of them. Haruhi is ****ing comedy compacted into an engine of destruction. She said "You're moving with your Auntie and Uncle in Bel-Air!"

I whistled for a cab and when it came near, the licence plate said Fresh and had a dice in the mirror. If anything I could say that this cab was rare but I thought, "Nah, forget it." Yo, holmes, to Bel-Air!

I pulled up to the house about seven or eight and I yelled to the cabbie, "Go home! Smell ya later!". Looked at my kingdom I was finally there, sit on my throne as the prince of Bel-Air.

John

July 20th, 2006, 07:46 AM

Why is half of Joeshie's post copied (not quoted, copied) from Dark_Sage's post from two days ago?

Suiko Eiji

July 20th, 2006, 07:55 AM

Perhaps he manually copied only that portion and forgot the quote tags?

SeannyB

July 20th, 2006, 02:18 PM

see how it suddenly turns into the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air theme song in the middle.
It's another reference (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:hmcqJKYqvuIJ:www.informat ionphysics.com/wiki/index.php/4chan+%22in+mid+2006+posters+began+count ering%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1) to 4chan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4chan).

Ken-Ohki

July 20th, 2006, 02:43 PM

I liked Haruhi but I was frustrated with the order too. I finished it last night so perhaps I need to digest it longer but seriously the show could have just as easily been played out chronologically. The only reason they didn't is the 6th episode is the climax of the story. If seen "chronologically" episodes 7-14 don't add anything to the characters. But episode 6 hardly needed to be episode 6, chronologically speaking it's as easy to place it after events that "follow" as before.

Its fun to play with things to be experimental but I saw them playing with chronology not to be experimental and thought provoking but to look flashy. I dunno, to me it seemed too forced. Cute show though.

Joeshie

July 20th, 2006, 06:34 PM

Taken from a list of 4chan meme's. (http://www.wikiworld.com/wiki/index.php/4chan#B)

Bel-Air, Fresh Prince of
Refers to the posting of the themesong from the popular 90's sitcom "The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air". In mid-2006, posters began countering extremely long rants with a "Bel-Aired" version, in which, halfway through the rant, the main character's mom got scared, she says "You're moving with your auntie and uncle in Bel-Air." I whistled for a cab and when it came near, the license plate said "Fresh" and it had dice in the mirror. If anything I could say that this cab was rare but I thought "Nah, forget it, Yo homes, to Bel-Air!" I pulled up to the house about seven or eight and I yelled to the cabby, "Yo homes, smell ya later!" I looked at my kingdom, I was finally there, to sit on my throne as the prince of Bel-Air.

I did it because Dark_Sage is obviously a 4channer.