Evangelion-Rumors,Unresolved Elements,Hidden Messages And Theories [Archive]

Matsu'o Tsurayaba

April 7th, 2006, 05:00 PM

Ornette

April 7th, 2006, 05:30 PM

2-Asuka is a genetically modified clone?I heard about this from the Internet,is it true that Asuka is a artificially created human,like Rei?
Whhaaa?
The Sadamoto manga, Asuka said she was conceived in a test tube. But there's no indication of this in the series (she has a Father and Mother)

4-The symbols on the ceiling and floor of Gendo`s office,i once heard what it was...
http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=112336&highlight=sephiroth

6-When Gendo "instigated" instrumentality,Shinji just appeared in what appeared to be a Theater,confronting all of his fears,and in the end,everyone appeared and congratulated him.What was this about?Where was everyone during Shinji`s ordeal?How did Gendo instigate instrumentality to begin with?How did Shinji get there?
This may be helpful
http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/mdwigs/endings.html

Scutilla

April 7th, 2006, 05:35 PM

Now that Evangelion is nearing its end on Cartoon Network,it did raise alot of questions i had about Eva when i first saw it.There is no doubt that some would want to see it again,since they would have questions about it also.
Hmm, not like Eva leaves unanswered questions or anything...

1-I always got the feeling the Eva Berserker mode had more to it,i heard rumors that it could possibly had gone even more higher than the level Shinji brought it to.
Essentially "Berserk" mode is just the soul inside the Eva taking control. I suppose the highest level of berserk, when the Eva becomes self-aware, is during the battle with Zereul- though some would argue that the Evas were aware from the beginning.

2-Asuka is a genetically modified clone?I heard about this from the Internet,is it true that Asuka is a artificially created human,like Rei?
Nah, just good ol' fashioned artificial insemination. I don't remember the details, but I believe Asuka's genetic father is an American genius scientist.

3-Rei and The Dummy Plug System,this always made little sence to me.When Shinji,Misato and Ritsuko were in Terminal Dogma Ritsuko destroyed all of the multiple Rei`s,what did that mean?Why was she detained for it?
The spare Reis serve two purposes- they act as the core for the Dummy Plug system (it is unknown whether a Rei actually resides in each plug, or they're just connected to the system somehow from the Reiquarium), and they serve as spare bodies for Rei, in case one dies (as shown in ep. 23). As Gendo plans to use Rei for his own nefarious schemes (as you'll see in End of Evangelion), he's understandably annoyed with Ritsuko for destroying his Rei spares.

4-The symbols on the ceiling and floor of Gendo`s office,i once heard what it was...
The Ten Sephrioths and the Tree of Life- I'm sure many of the people here more knowledgable than I can provide background on it. It also puts in a couple of appearances in the opening credits, as well as End of Eva.

5-Eva Unit 04 and the explosion in Nevada,USA.I once heard of a theory as to why it exploded...
It's speculated that it was due to a malfunction during the activation tests with 04's S2 Engine (which was built from the data gained from Shamshel). Since it's only a small part of one episode, we don't really have much information on the incident.

6-When Gendo "instigated" instrumentality,Shinji just appeared in what appeared to be a Theater,confronting all of his fears,and in the end,everyone appeared and congratulated him.What was this about?Where was everyone during Shinji`s ordeal?How did Gendo instigate instrumentality to begin with?How did Shinji get there?
Fufufu... for that, my friend, you must watch the End of Evangelion movie. (EDIT: The link Ornette provided above shows the relation between eps. 25-26 and EoE, also known as 25'-26'. It might make more sense if you actually watch the movie first, and the relation might become apparent on its own.)

mr_random

April 7th, 2006, 05:37 PM

Just my thoughts on the subjects:

1 - hard to really say, it was never really touched on in the series so I don't know if there is truth to this or not.

2 - In the anime, she has a mom and dad, in the manga she is a test tube baby as part of a eugenics program, maybe where that idea came from.

3 - Eh, not exactly sure on this. I know she destroyed all the "empty vessel" Reis. Only the real one had a soul. Apparently by doing this, I guess because Rei was the key to the dummy system, it also destroyed that. She was detained because it destroyed a lot of work and hurt the "plan."

4 - The Sephirotic tree is supposedly what is on the ceiling, I have heard the floor is just another version of the tree, but not sure if that is true or not.

5 - Series leads one to believe it was the S2 engine installation that caused it. I heard one theory that it was caused an uncontrollable reaction that converted all matter in a certain area to engery. Also, that it may have opened a Sea of Dirac, like the one that swallowed Eva-01 and Shinji.

6 - That theater scene was like totally taking place inside Shinji's mind. He was basically deciding if he wanted everyone's mind to merge or to live seperatly. If you havn't seen EoE, I would recommend that. People argue whether it is a replacement or just an augmentation of the series ending, but I think it at least give more idea what is going on.

thewayneiac

April 7th, 2006, 05:47 PM

Now that Evangelion is nearing its end on Cartoon Network,it did raise alot of questions i had about Eva when i first saw it.There is no doubt that some would want to see it again,since they would have questions about it also.

Some elements of Eva i would not learn through the actual anime,but from information sites.Like data about Asuka,NERV and 3rd Impact.

Here are some things i have questions to.This thread is to put up questions about Eva,but more detailed questions.

1-I always got the feeling the Eva Berserker mode had more to it,i heard rumors that it could possibly had gone even more higher than the level Shinji brought it to.

When an Eva goes berserk, it means the indwelling soul has taken over and the pilot is no longer in control. There are no levels involved and Shinji has no say in what happens.

2-Asuka is a genetically modified clone?I heard about this from the Internet,is it true that Asuka is a artificially created human,like Rei?

No. In the Manga, which is based on the anime, she is the product of artificial insemination (her mom went to a genius sperm bank) but even there she hasn't been genetically modified. In the anime even this isn't true; the characters identified as her parents are are parents.

3-Rei and The Dummy Plug System,this always made little sence to me.When Shinji,Misato and Ritsuko were in Terminal Dogma Ritsuko destroyed all of the multiple Rei`s,what did that mean? Why was she detained for it?

We don't completely understand this ourselves. For some unstated reason, the dummy system will apparently no longer function with the Reis destroyed. It is not true that each dummy plug contains a Rei clone however. If you freeze frame on Ritsuko's controller when she is about to zap them, you will see that only enough Reis are missing to account for the ones we know to have existed.

4-The symbols on the ceiling and floor of Gendo`s office,i once heard what it was...

Shin-seiki is the one who has looked into this. It's a diagram of some sort explaining the behavior of sub-atomic particals. It seems that souls in Eva function like quarks. See the "quantom mechanics" thread for more info. It has just been bumped to the top page.

5-Eva Unit 04 and the explosion in Nevada,USA.I once heard of a theory as to why it exploded...

Something went wrong when they test fired an S^2 Engine. Since the place blinked out of existance, they probably never found out exactly what happened.

6-When Gendo "instigated" instrumentality,Shinji just appeared in what appeared to be a Theater,confronting all of his fears,and in the end,everyone appeared and congratulated him.What was this about?Where was everyone during Shinji`s ordeal?How did Gendo instigate instrumentality to begin with?How did Shinji get there?

They were congratulating him for rejecting Instrumentality and accepting his existance as an individual. Everyone was right there with him; they were not imaginary. See the movie End of Evangelion to find out how instrumentality was instigated. The series deliberately doesn't tell you.

LuigiHann

April 10th, 2006, 07:49 AM

3-Rei and The Dummy Plug System,this always made little sence to me.When Shinji,Misato and Ritsuko were in Terminal Dogma Ritsuko destroyed all of the multiple Rei`s,what did that mean?Why was she detained for it?

Here's my theory:
Ritsuko comments that they can't "digitize" a human brain. I'm guessing that the Reis in the tank are to compensate for that, that somehow the collective brainpower of the soulless Reis are sent wirelessly to control the Eva. The exact details escape me, but I think it makes sense that it's the living brains they need, as that and the soul are the only things they wouldn't really be able to reproduce in any other way, and we know they don't have souls.

Matsu'o Tsurayaba

April 10th, 2006, 05:12 PM

Many thing of what i said was looking at the series without EoE in mind.If you were to look at the questions i said with EoE in mind,things could perhaps be even more confusing.

Also,does anyone have a map of NERV headquarters?The entire complex?Because in many episodes characters were just in one area,and in the next.Terminal Dogma,and the lower levels of NERV were almost rarely seen.

Also,with SEELE.It was said in the Manga,when Shinji was speaking with Kaji in a aquararium that SEELE has been around for thousands of years,and might be the group that controls humanity from behind the scenes.Is this true?Is this mentioned in the anime also?What else is in the Manga that is not in the anime?

The Opinionator

April 10th, 2006, 05:50 PM

They were congratulating him for rejecting Instrumentality and accepting his existance as an individual. Everyone was right there with him; they were not imaginary.
Could you please provide your argument showing that the people congratulating Shinji are the same people who appeared throughout the series up until the final episodes? Remember, some of the ones congratulating him had already died before the Third Impact.

The spare Reis serve two purposes- they act as the core for the Dummy Plug system (it is unknown whether a Rei actually resides in each plug, or they're just connected to the system somehow from the Reiquarium), and they serve as spare bodies for Rei, in case one dies (as shown in ep. 23). As Gendo plans to use Rei for his own nefarious schemes (as you'll see in End of Evangelion), he's understandably annoyed with Ritsuko for destroying his Rei spares.
Eh, not exactly sure on this. I know she destroyed all the "empty vessel" Reis. Only the real one had a soul. Apparently by doing this, I guess because Rei was the key to the dummy system, it also destroyed that. She was detained because it destroyed a lot of work and hurt the "plan."
If I recall correctly, the series clearly tells us that the clones of Rei are an integral part of the dummy plug system. Moreover, it's not necessary for a clone to be sitting in an entry plug inside an Evangelion for the dummy plug system to work, because Nerv used it on Unit 01 while Shinji was still inside to destroy Unit 03.

I think Scutilla is right about the purpose of clones being twofold. However, the fact that every new Rei is just another one of the clones begs the question of how exactly they manage to reacquire her soul from the old clone and "bind" it to the new one? Or was it only Rei I who had a soul? Or did no Rei ever have any soul at all?

Essentially "Berserk" mode is just the soul inside the Eva taking control. I suppose the highest level of berserk, when the Eva becomes self-aware, is during the battle with Zereul- though some would argue that the Evas were aware from the beginning.
If Berserk mode is the soul inside the Eva taking control, then why does the Eva do such beastly things? Would Yui really so viciously cannibalize an angel's S^2 organ, howling like a deranged primate? I'll grant that having your soul transplanted into a gigantic imitation of Lillith (or was Unit 01 created from Adam like the other Evas?) might mess with your mind a bit, but whenever Shinji encounters Yui inside Unit 01, she doesn't seem like a deranged primate to me. Can your claim be supported in the case of Unit 00, as well?

Also,does anyone have a map of NERV headquarters?The entire complex?Because in many episodes characters were just in one area,and in the next.Terminal Dogma,and the lower levels of NERV were almost rarely seen.
Considering the sheer size of the Black Moon in which Nerv HQ resides, I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a map of the entire complex. You might have better luck with sections of the compound, like Central and Terminal Dogma, for example. Unfortunately, I know of nothing offhand that would help you.

drgenestarwind

April 10th, 2006, 08:45 PM

well, if you cant digitize the soul...but can you digitize all the thought processes? wouldnt it make sense to have a rei clone in the dummy plug? can rei/lillith's soul be transfered without the body of rei dying? IOW could the soul be transfered to the dummy plug while it needs it?

Mr. Tines

April 10th, 2006, 11:16 PM

Also,does anyone have a map of NERV headquarters?

This (http://www.evacommentary.org/images_production/geofront-dimensional.jpg) is the only official one I've seen and known to be official. I have a couple of schematics of uncertain provenance I'll upload & link when I'm at the right machine.

Is this true?Is this mentioned in the anime also?

The anime is silent on the topic, in the storyboards, not only does their logo look slightly different, it is said to belong not to Seele, but “Essene” which would tie them to the Dead Sea Scrolls and all the usual conspiracy theory suspects. See

http://www.evacommentary.org/op/op_2.html#044

What else is in the Manga that is not in the anime?

Off the top of my head:-

Asuka's conception by AI; more Shinji/Rei (yay! :P); Asuka's kung fu; an entirely different S/A kiss; Kaji's back-story; Kaworu's arrival in ep#21-equivalent; Shinji threatening to punch Kaworu; Kaworu giving Shinji mouth-to-mouth.

Also fewer angels, and all the characters have different personalities.

Reichu

April 11th, 2006, 07:18 AM

If I recall correctly, the series clearly tells us that the clones of Rei are an integral part of the dummy plug system.

She says something along the lines that they're the part(s) that become the core(s) of the dummy system -- whatever the hell that means.

There's some interesting stuff on the dummy plugs/system in NGE2. And, yah -- I will be getting off my arse on this.

However, the fact that every new Rei is just another one of the clones begs the question of how exactly they manage to reacquire her soul from the old clone and "bind" it to the new one?

They have some means of salvaging souls. "Salvage" is a difficult term to define...

(1) The human souls that reside within the cores of the Evas were "salvaged".
(2) The attempt to force Yui's soul out of EVA-01 and into a reconstruction of her body was a salvage operation.
(3) Another salvage operation was the attempt to fix Shinji's disembodied soul (in the entry plug of EVA-01) into a reconstruction of his body.
(4) Adam's "salvaged soul resides only in [Kaworu]".
* [any other mentions of the term I'm forgetting?]

...but it seems to involve artificially transferring a soul, sometimes disembodied, into a(nother) vessel.

This precedent set, and Rei's unnatural status a given, Rei's soul would be passed from one to the other via salvaging. After Rei 2's corpse is retrieved in #23, they even added a scene to the NPC where Gendo and Fuyutsuki are at the Dummy Plug Plant doing "some mysterious thing or another" -- one can extrapolate, salvaging the soul from Rei 2 to a fresh new body.

Rei 1 is a complicated case, as, while Rei 2 clearly contains Lilith's soul –- which Rei 1 herself contained –- EVA-00 houses at least some aspect of Rei 1. Perhaps that which made Rei 1 and nothing more?

Another off-screen salvage operation is the one Gendo performed to transfer Adam's soul from Kaworu's head to the bug-eyed embryo fused to his palm.

Or was it only Rei I who had a soul? Or did no Rei ever have any soul at all?

Ritsuko's lines, "The only vessel that contained a soul was Rei. She was the only born with a soul", seem to be referring to the original one (but perhaps encompassing the "line" continued by Rei 2 and 3), considering the talk of the clones in the Dummy Plug Plant being mere "dummies" and "Rei-like things" without souls. Ritsuko also says that the Evas do not intrinsically have souls. Yet Rei is said to be the only vessel born with a soul -- what does this mean? I would imagine this means that she possessed a soul from the very beginning and one did not need to be salvaged into her after the fact.

If Berserk mode is the soul inside the Eva taking control, then why does the Eva do such beastly things? Would Yui really so viciously cannibalize an angel's S^2 organ, howling like a deranged primate?

She is shown doing so, isn't she? I'm not sure why people have such a hard time swallowing this –- Yui's soul became the soul of a god-like body that would otherwise be, well, a mere sack of meat. It's by all rights her body, and she's the only source from which a "will" to control the body of Eva could be manifesting here. Ritsuko also flat-out tells us that the Evas themselves are human, so the behavior exhibited by them is, well, behavior that must be incorporated into the spectrum of human behaviorisms as expanded for the show.

In cases like this, Misato's policy from #24 seems rather relevant: First accept it, and then figure out why/how it's happening.

I'll grant that having your soul transplanted into a gigantic imitation of Lillith (or was Unit 01 created from Adam like the other Evas?)

Apparently EVA-01 is Lilith's surrogate daughter, i.e., Gehirn impregnated Lilith so that the Test Type would be born of her, and, at the same time, be genetically derived from Adam. Searches for "Bridge Entity" and "surrogate" ought to yield more on this particular subject.

whenever Shinji encounters Yui inside Unit 01, she doesn't seem like a deranged primate to me.

Why would Yui go into Ballistic Mode when dealing with her child? Animals -- humans included -- tend to not behave the same way towards their offspring that they do towards their adversaries/prey.

Seele08

April 11th, 2006, 07:30 AM

Reichu

April 11th, 2006, 07:40 AM

In the manga there is this weird scene at the end of volume seven where the commitee and Keel are standing in this weird room. And behind each one of them there are these weird pod-like devices big enough for a person. What the heck is with that.

Never noticed that... (Then, I barely ever look at the manga. Heh.) I have absolutely no idea. Save for strange, vague, and extremely inarticulate thoughts floating around in my head about why twelve Eva Series units had been planned.

why is Kaworu in that tube?

Same reason as Rei. Downloading personality patterns for the dummy system.

Seele08

April 11th, 2006, 07:44 AM

Maybe the pods are all maitenence beds for cyborgs? The whole commitee is made of cute little cyborgs!

BigBet

April 11th, 2006, 07:57 AM

She is shown doing so, isn't she? I'm not sure why people have such a hard time swallowing this –- Yui's soul became the soul of a god-like body that would otherwise be, well, a mere sack of meat. It's by all rights her body, and she's the only source from which a "will" to control the body of Eva could be manifesting here. Ritsuko also flat-out tells us that the Evas themselves are human, so the behavior exhibited by them is, well, behavior that must be incorporated into the spectrum of human behaviorisms as expanded for the show.

Well... the behaviour of the Eva-01 during the Berserk occassions does seem to resemble an ape more than a human mother protecting her child. The Eva's behaviour could be explained as that of a "jungle-child" (think 'Mowgli' from The Jungle Book), as in a child who has developed without proper interaction with humans.
Motive-wise, it makes perfect sense for Yui to cannibalize an S^2 organ from poor Zeruel, but her behaviour during the entire event is suspect. Could Yui's influence over the Eva be of a lesser extent than you believe it to be?

LuigiHann

April 11th, 2006, 08:15 AM

It could be that while the Eva has Yui's soul, and apparently her mind, as it's actions seem to be governed by her long-term goals, the Eva does not have a human brain, it has an Eva's brain. Thus, the ape-like behavior may be the result of that, in a sense. yui has full control, but her natural instincts and whatever else may be hard-wired into the brain are that of whatever an Eva would be in nature, in a sense.

Seele08

April 11th, 2006, 08:17 AM

Wait, Isn't Yui's soul just housed in the Eva's core? And the core is removable.

BigBet

April 11th, 2006, 08:21 AM

The problem with this of course, is that we are more or less told that Evas are humans. So how can there be a difference between a human brain and an Eva brain?
Makes you wonder what the Soul-Brain/Mind relationship is in NGE.

I would second your view LuigiHann, except for the above difficulty. Is there anyway to resolve this?

BigBet

April 11th, 2006, 08:23 AM

Wait, Isn't Yui's soul just housed in the Eva's core? And the core is removable.

From what I've gathered, the core is not removable. Fuyutski's dialogue concerning this was just wrongly translated.

Seele08

April 11th, 2006, 08:26 AM

Oh I thought you could switch out cores, from when they talked about Eva 02 (ep. 24) and 03 (can't recall which ep) it seemed like they could.

LuigiHann

April 11th, 2006, 08:33 AM

The problem with this of course, is that we are more or less told that Evas are humans. So how can there be a difference between a human brain and an Eva brain?

I was thinking it could be something to do with the Fruit of Life/Fruit of Knowlege distinction, but the show seems to suggest that at that point Unit 1 already has the Fruit of Knowlege, which is the same one that mankind/lilim has.
But I mean, even though the Evas are human, they're still a physically different kind of human, just as the Angels are human despite their physical differences. The brain is a physical organ, so it could be fundamentally different for the same reasons that Evas are 20-400 meters tall and semi-reptilian.

Wait, Isn't Yui's soul just housed in the Eva's core? And the core is removable.
I get the impression that the core is removable in the same way your heart is removable. It could hypothetically be transplanted, but it'd be a very iffy process, as you can't be alive without one.

Reichu

April 11th, 2006, 09:24 AM

Well... the behaviour of the Eva-01 during the Berserk occassions does seem to resemble an ape more than a human mother protecting her child.

Just to be picky, humans are apes.

Motive-wise, it makes perfect sense for Yui to cannibalize an S^2 organ from poor Zeruel, but her behaviour during the entire event is suspect. Could Yui's influence over the Eva be of a lesser extent than you believe it to be?

If Yui is not in full control of the "divine meatsack", that would require the existence of a consciousness or will separate from that of the Eva's actual soul (hers, the one that abandoned its original body for Eva). This seems somewhat out of bounds with everything else we know, and the only "evidence" for it would be the inability to accept that Yui could act "in such a manner".

I don't think it's any secret that "civilized human beings" are capable of acting in ... extremely uninhibited, and sometimes downright disturbing (by typical standards), ways if placed in the right conditions. Losing oneself in the heat of battle or a struggle of life vs. death is nothing new under the Sun. The way Yui goes about devouring Zeruel is a bit more "primitive" than one would ordinarily expect people to get even in such situations... But one thing worth considering is that this "extra step" back towards animalian tendencies might be an instance of Yui being influenced by the body she now inhabits.

In NGE, the soul and the body have a symbiotic and dynamic relationship. There doesn't seem to be any sound reason to think that Yui's soul would simply remain static after changing residences. By the same token, there's also no reason why the essence of who Yui is would need to change to permit behavior like lasciviously devouring somebody :P -- it seems to be only by the standards of many human cultures that "discrepancies" like this cannot exist.

EDIT: Some of the above ties into ideas that were being batted around while I was typing it. ;)

spookyruthy

April 11th, 2006, 09:30 AM

Well... the behaviour of the Eva-01 during the Berserk occassions does seem to resemble an ape more than a human mother protecting her child. The Eva's behaviour could be explained as that of a "jungle-child" (think 'Mowgli' from The Jungle Book), as in a child who has developed without proper interaction with humans.
Motive-wise, it makes perfect sense for Yui to cannibalize an S^2 organ from poor Zeruel, but her behaviour during the entire event is suspect. Could Yui's influence over the Eva be of a lesser extent than you believe it to be?

I don't think that Yui has any particular control over the eva itself. If you think about its beserker moments, this seems to be the only point in which there is any internal control seemingly coming from Yui. Any other time, the eva is being controlled by the pilot and by the staff residing in terminal dogma. Yui's passive soul within Eva Unit 01 could only act "Mowgli-like" if she wasn't aware that she was inhabiting the eva, therefore lashing out in an aggressive manner.

However, in the episode where it is suggested that Yui's soul lives within Eva Unit 01, the concept comes across that she willingly absorbed herself into it. If this is the case, then she would surely have much more conscious control over the Eva and be aware that she was living inside of another being.

And you have to remember that the Eva itself has a personality too, as we find out when Misato reveals to Shinji that the Evas are like humans. So isn't it just as well to suggest that Yui is 'cohabiting' inside of Eva Unit 01 with its original soul too? Therefore, control over the Eva is really down to the original inhabitant - the soul of Eva Unit 01.

Shin-seiki

April 11th, 2006, 09:51 AM

So isn't it just as well to suggest that Yui is 'cohabiting' inside of Eva Unit 01 with its original soul too? Therefore, control over the Eva is really down to the original inhabitant - the soul of Eva Unit 01.Ritsuko (And Anno too, in the NGE2 Classified Info) specifically states that the Evas are soulless, until they are vested with a 'salvaged' human soul.

Reichu

April 11th, 2006, 09:52 AM

I was thinking it could be something to do with the Fruit of Life/Fruit of Knowlege distinction, but the show seems to suggest that at that point Unit 1 already has the Fruit of Knowlege, which is the same one that mankind/lilim has.

Yui's soul innately has the Fruit of Knowledge, as every Lilim does.

But I mean, even though the Evas are human, they're still a physically different kind of human, just as the Angels are human despite their physical differences.

...

The brain is a physical organ, so it could be fundamentally different for the same reasons that Evas are 20-400 meters tall and semi-reptilian.

Close. 40~200. :P

The Evas aren't reptilian in any sense. Modified from one of my insane rants:

***

Since the Evas were derived from Adam, they would -- modifications imposed by science aside -- technically belong to the same species as Adam's kids, whose genetic "pattern" is said to be 99.89% identical to that of H. sapiens. (Had the Apostles not abandoned their native forms, they would, within all reason, look like their mother, and ergo like Evas.) This would make make the Evas closer to us genetically than the bonobo*, our closer living relative.

Accordingly, they are virtually identical to us in the most minute details. Check out the various instances of "Eva Exposure" in the show, the bio-readout lists (EVA-00, etc.), the muscles on the Simulation Bodies, the details of the underlying skeleton itself... Hell, just look at the Evas as a whole! Anno flat-out states (http://www.evacommentary.org/op/op_2.html#025), regarding the Evas' design:

"There's a monster in Japan called the Oni; it has two horns sticking out of its head and the overall image of the Eva is based on that. I also wanted to give the impression that beneath this ‘robot monster’ image is not so much a robot, but a giant human."

The DNA talks, the visuals talk, and so does the director. So, what would account for the genetic discrepancy?

No hair. No mammary glands. No "superfluous flesh". No body fat. Extremely light on the facial musculature. And a lack of the type of sexual dimorphism we would expect, as well.

And they hatch from eggs (mandorlas), too. Check out Sandalphon in episode #10. Even Tabris, the little Albino Black Sheep of the Apostles, hatches from one (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-23/23_reiquarium.html#cut317-30).

It's like all of these entities are giant (well... a lot of them, anyway) H. sapiens, only with the mammal part extracted and a little touch-up work done to compensate. And a couple of exotic flourishes, since Adam & Co.'s mortal antecedents would have arisen from a rather different evolutionary path, and all.

* Well... depends on who you ask.

***

EDIT: All of the stuff in the show suggests a brain structure that's more or less, well, like ours. I guess in-series, it would be more vice-versa -- the Eva brain represents a brain that is very ancient indeed.

From what I've gathered, the core is not removable. Fuyutski's dialogue concerning this was just wrongly translated.

Indeed: The core was to be "reconfigured", not "replaced". I first checked up on this over here (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4748064&highlight=reconfigure#post4748064).

spookyruthy

April 11th, 2006, 10:11 AM

Ritsuko (And Anno too, in the NGE2 Classified Info) specifically states that the Evas are soulless, until they are vested with a 'salvaged' human soul.
In the same way that Rei's bodies are. Hm...there is another conundrum I have just thought of though...if the whole conception of Rei was Gendo's way of salvaging Yui, then who's soul resides in Rei?

BigBet

April 11th, 2006, 10:23 AM

Gendo's way of salvaging Yui failed because she wished to remain in Eva-01. What happened is that Lilith's soul somehow ended up in Rei's body. Lilith's soul in Rei's body is a major plot point actually, and it's the to key how Gendo planned to take over 3rd Impact so he could be reunited with his wife.

Shin-seiki

April 11th, 2006, 01:50 PM

In the same way that Rei's bodies are. Hm...there is another conundrum I have just thought of though...if the whole conception of Rei was Gendo's way of salvaging Yui, then who's soul resides in Rei?http://www.evaotaku.com/html/glossary2.html#L

http://www.evaotaku.com/html/evafaq.html#question18

Reichu

April 11th, 2006, 01:56 PM

Not like you need to lean on those, though. It's all there in the show itself. (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=161276)

LuigiHann

April 11th, 2006, 03:35 PM

"Reptilian" was a poor word choice, my bad. I just used it as a quick way to say "not mammalian."

millinniummany3

April 11th, 2006, 05:40 PM

I have one rumor. It's probably been brought up before, but I'll ask again anyway. Just how deep did the relationship with Gendou and Rei go? Was there anything...sexual at all?

Vaikyuko

April 11th, 2006, 05:49 PM

In one sense, yes (omg he toched her boob). In another, no. For the meaning you're digging at, I'd say no.

Matsu'o Tsurayaba

April 11th, 2006, 06:12 PM

I also heard of perhaps feelings for Rei by Gendo.I would have to say that is nearly impossible,since Gendo loves Yui.

But if you were to look at it further,Rei is a clone of Yui.So there could be some kind of relationship,hence the touching of the breast.

Soluzar

April 11th, 2006, 06:16 PM

I have one rumor. It's probably been brought up before, but I'll ask again anyway. Just how deep did the relationship with Gendou and Rei go? Was there anything...sexual at all?

What is with these rumours? If you can't work it out from what's on screen, it's not there. Some things might need to be pointed out to you, before they make sense, but you'd always be able to see the evidence on screen.

Ironfoot

April 11th, 2006, 06:59 PM

I have one rumor. It's probably been brought up before, but I'll ask again anyway. Just how deep did the relationship with Gendou and Rei go? Was there anything...sexual at all?
That's not a rumor, that's a question. However, this question may imply a certain rumor, being formed when "yes" is answered to the question.

In which case, this "rumor" was brought up by an individual's perception of events. Perception is what matters here, so if you think that something sexual happened, then it did. If nothing happened besides the obvious breast groping, then no. It's really up to you.

Reichu

April 11th, 2006, 08:07 PM

In which case, this "rumor" was brought up by an individual's perception of events. Perception is what matters here, so if you think that something sexual happened, then it did. If nothing happened besides the obvious breast groping, then no. It's really up to you.

Perception cannot be used to "create" a sexual relationship between Rei and Gendo that is unsupported by the show. This is another one of those things for which the evidence... well, just isn't there.

LuigiHann

April 11th, 2006, 08:18 PM

Perception is what matters here, so if you think that something sexual happened, then it did. If nothing happened besides the obvious breast groping, then no. It's really up to H-dōjinshi artists.
Fixed that for you ;)

millinniummany3

April 11th, 2006, 11:00 PM

Just a random thought I had after all the 'ZOMG GENDOU AND REI HAVE MAD sExOrS LOLZ!1!!11ONE!1ELEVEN!!11' typical of fapboys who've never seen the series. Here's another one I had. I'd probably chalk this up to how Shinji remembers her, but in the alternate reality scene where Rei basically acts like AWL on crack, should she really have blue hair and red eyes?

Mr. Tines

April 11th, 2006, 11:08 PM

Come to that, should she even look like his mum?

LuigiHann

April 11th, 2006, 11:08 PM

Technically, if Yui's alive and well, and Evangelions don't exist, it's fairly unlikely that Shinji and Asuka would have ever met, and Rei almost definately would never have existed.
As such, I'm not quite sure what the Alternate Rei is really supposed to represent, other than perhaps what Rei may have become if she had been raised by a real family out in the real world rather than by Gendo in a sterile military environment.
I do get your point about the appearance, but I don't think there'd be much sense in changing it, as her very existence in that world is a paradox.

millinniummany3

April 11th, 2006, 11:16 PM

Or Misato, for example, maybe Touji, Kensuke and Hikari as well. But if we were to leave them out fans would have complained.

Of course, I think fans are upset that the alternate reality didn't involve the characters slitting their wrists, but that may be just me.

Mr. Tines

April 11th, 2006, 11:36 PM

Of course, I think fans are upset that the alternate reality didn't involve the characters slitting their wrists, but that may be just me.

Just you, I think.

I was glad it wasn't just a "He woke up, and it had all been a dream."

Ironfoot

April 12th, 2006, 05:12 AM

Perception cannot be used to "create" a sexual relationship between Rei and Gendo that is unsupported by the show. This is another one of those things for which the evidence... well, just isn't there.
Perception could be used to create the possibility, regardless of full evidence. If the inclinations are present, then depending on the perception of the user (from life experience), he/she will look at it differently. But whatever, that's just my opinion.

ElderEva

April 12th, 2006, 07:39 AM

"Technically, if Yui's alive and well, and Evangelions don't exist, it's fairly unlikely that Shinji and Asuka would have ever met, and Rei almost definately would never have existed.
As such, I'm not quite sure what the Alternate Rei is really supposed to represent, other than perhaps what Rei may have become if she had been raised by a real family out in the real world rather than by Gendo in a sterile military environment."

Sorry if the quote didnt come out right in the thread.

I beleive that because technically Shinji didnt exist in the alternate reality, Rie is in actually the Daughter of Gendo and Yui. (as you remember in the series, the daughter would be named Rei, xx verses xy changes history). So Rei would exist as opposed to Shinji as a real person and not an experiment.

LuigiHann

April 12th, 2006, 08:38 AM

Uh, perhaps you're thinking of a different alternate universe, as I was talking about the one from the TV ending, in which Shinji does exist.
Your theory could apply to the Alternate Live Action Sequence cut from EoE, as that's the one where Shinji doesn't exist. (Interestingly, Rei doesn't have her blue hair and red eyes in that universe)

Reichu

April 12th, 2006, 09:04 AM

If Yui and Gendo had ended up with a daughter rather than a son and named her Rei, methinks that she would have looked somewhat different from the Rei in the show. I mean, blue hair and red eyes are definitely out -- those aren't things Rei inherited from Yui, y'know? :P

ElderEva

April 12th, 2006, 09:18 AM

oops, i did get my realities mixed up. Dam that space time continuum thing :P

Soluzar

April 12th, 2006, 09:26 AM

Perception could be used to create the possibility, regardless of full evidence. If the inclinations are present, then depending on the perception of the user (from life experience), he/she will look at it differently. But whatever, that's just my opinion.

That's a dialogic reading of the text, and while it's something that viewers might find in Evangelion, it was not put there. It's important to keep that distinction between what you find, and what's objectively there.

millinniummany3

April 13th, 2006, 04:05 PM

Matsu'o Tsurayaba

April 13th, 2006, 04:19 PM

Well...that would make sence.There are multiple Rei`s,so if one died.Another would merely take her place,she may not have any memory stated when Rei II died and Rei III came about.It must be from a perception thought or stance.

Gendo on a number of times almost sacrificed Rei,hence him speaking "It does not matter..there are others." a meaning to that Rei is expendible and another could easily take her place.Supporting the idea that Rei does not have any indiviuality.

Gboz

April 15th, 2006, 04:48 PM

If you'd like to know how Genou instigated Instrumentality, just watch "End of Evangelion".

millinniummany3

April 15th, 2006, 04:55 PM

Say, just on Gendou nearly sacrificing Rei and not seeming to care about her. Twice he does show concern for her in battle, once in episode 19 and again in 23, enough so to send Shinji out to save her. Why the change from harming Rei in 18, and forcing her to pilot in the first episode? If she can be replaced why should it matter if Rei lives or dies?

Gboz

April 15th, 2006, 05:15 PM

millinniummany3

April 15th, 2006, 05:42 PM

Yes, but in the earlier episodes in particular he doesn't seem to care about her. Seeing that he does (episode 5) was a surprise, and it wasn't until the 19th episode, the previous one remember he had Rei's arm broken, when Rei goes out to fight Gendou voices his concern. In episode 22 when Asuka might have been killed Gendou refuses to send Shinji out. But when it is Rei, he orders him to go and save her.

BigBet

April 15th, 2006, 05:50 PM

Actually in that last instance, he sends Shinji out not because it's Rei under danger, but because Arimasael seems to be resurrecting all the Apostles from Eva-00's body. It's only Asuka who assumes that Shinji is being sent to rescue Rei, whereas she herself was too worthless to be saved.

millinniummany3

April 15th, 2006, 06:36 PM

Resurrecting all the Apotles? Could you just run that by me? That would mean Third Impact, or TI would not happen or something wouldn't it? Basically a similar thing to the Harpies and Eva 01?

Reichu

April 15th, 2006, 06:58 PM

Resurrecting all the Apotles? Could you just run that by me?

You missed that one on its initial release and subsequent appearances, eh?

http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5466300#post5466300 (Continue reading until at least #186)

http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5583658&postcount=205 <-- Some more here

millinniummany3

April 15th, 2006, 08:07 PM

:w00t: Click here (http://rapidshare.de/files/18117666/holyshit.wav.html) for my reply.

zuggy

April 16th, 2006, 05:13 AM

Here's another thought I had. Reading around in fanfics and sites on Rei I get the impression that she hated the clones of herself. In 25 she makes a comment that she wants to die, but she cannot. Could this be in referrence to the clones? Is there any indication of her feelings towards them? What about when they are destroyed?
Rei is tired of living, either because she hates Gendou’s abuse of her or because she knows she has been unlawfully taken from her true home. An interesting thing was the redone animation for episode 23 when Rei returns in her third incarnation, the original animation shows her looking just removed from the situation as she usually does, in the redone stuff though she looks really tired, pissed off and miserable. I guess the reason she hates the clones is just because they can bring her back from the nothingness she wants to inhabit.

millinniummany3

April 16th, 2006, 05:16 AM

Groovy. You have a screencap of her in the redone stuff by any chance?

zuggy

April 16th, 2006, 05:23 AM

Shin-seiki

April 16th, 2006, 05:58 AM

Towards the bottom of the page: http://www.evacommentary.org/appendix/revisions_oa-to-npc.html

Then theres the next scene when Rei squeezes the glasses which was redone... but I can't find that on the commentary pages.
From page 1 of "What Gendo said to Ritsuko..."
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Rei_Ep23.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Rei_Ep23'.jpg

The NPC version was changed to correspond better with this; note the cold sidelong look that Rei is aiming at Gendo:
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Rei_Ep25'b.jpg

millinniummany3

April 16th, 2006, 06:03 AM

Ah, very observent to pick up on that. Yes, I can see the diffirence, and how the tired, angry Rei is sort of more played up rather than just making her clueless like before.

Reichu

April 16th, 2006, 07:18 AM

Then theres the next scene when Rei squeezes the glasses which was redone... but I can't find that on the commentary pages.

The only reason the scene in the hospital is on the site already is that I'd made a preliminary CP for it (although now I can't even remember why), so the thumbnails for the NPC screenshots had already been done, and... Ah, crap, it doesn't matter why. :P

Ah, very observent to pick up on that.

You don't read all of the threads here, do you? :naughty:

Seele08

April 16th, 2006, 09:27 AM

zuggy

April 16th, 2006, 09:37 AM

I was thinking....yeah I know that's bad sometimes....
Here be my thoughts.

Adam and Lilith don't come from the same folks whoever they may be (this is somebody else's idea) but the reason we are called the false succesors from the black moon could be....Adam got here first, Lilith got here second...whoever sent Lilith used the LoL as a restraining device and let Lilith go about her progagation business.
Beats Me I just need to get some decent sleep for once in my life, and get Peirre (my bird) out of my hair.
Funny you should say that. I came across this a while ago, then lost it, then found it again only yesterday:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Zugzwang-R/Tatig/Levi.jpg

This was designed by a guy called Levi, the first person to dip his toes into the concept of duality with pentagrams. Doesn't seem like Adam and Lilith really should be together at all.

I forgot what I was going to say...

Edit: Thanks for finding those screencaps Shin-Seiki. ^_^

Seele08

April 16th, 2006, 09:48 AM

Funny you should say that. I came across this a while ago, then lost it, then found it again only yesterday:

I'm chalkin' in up to great minds think alike.

Hell maybe SEELE was planning on insturmentatlity as a way to form a godlike being to transplant us to another world, one they didn't feel that we "stole".
Also: Is it a bad sign that I named my bird after "Peirre" the character whose name is actually a fannon name not a cannon name. For the record he is bright yellow (not a canary or finch, a lutino parakeet) and has quite a beak not unlike his namesake.

LuigiHann

April 16th, 2006, 09:56 AM

Whoa, Sammael's mentioned. In conjunction with Lilith. Cool.

Seele08

April 16th, 2006, 09:59 AM

Whoa, Sammael's mentioned. In conjunction with Lilith. Cool.

Well in Jewish mythology Lilith is the mother of all demons....

zuggy

April 16th, 2006, 10:22 AM

Gave me an idea...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Zugzwang-R/Tatig/Peirre.jpg

What do you mean by "stole." You mean they wouldn't think humanity worthy?

Seele08

April 16th, 2006, 10:28 AM

Lol'd
Poor Peirre...he's a sad little Parakeet right now...he's hiding from my house-full-of-pyscho family in his cage up in my room. Do'h you forgot the glasses....

zuggy

April 16th, 2006, 10:44 AM

It becomes ever more surreal with glasses... Fixed. (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Zugzwang-R/Tatig/Pierre-the-sequel.jpg)

Seele08

April 16th, 2006, 10:53 AM

Peirres started second impact when he bit my mom...which pissed her off. Peirre is a one-woman-bird only his mommie (me) gets to hold him before he gets mad.
Peirre: Scream, Scream, Scream! *chomp*
My mom: Ouch! You damn bird!
Peirre: Scream, Scream, Scream! The repair costs for Unit 01, added to the Development costs for Unit-00 were simply Staggering.
My mom: What? Did you just say something?
Peirre: Err no...Chirp, Chirp, Chirp.

@Zuggy, I also have a big Bettafish that is darkblue/black, named Gendo.

Matsu'o Tsurayaba

April 16th, 2006, 05:24 PM

Another thing i have been wondering was...what was on the casette Shinji often listened to?What kind of music?What kind of hidden message was that?

When Kwaru decended into Terminal Dogma,he found Lillith instead of Adam.Count to think of it...Adam is only shown a few times in Evangelion,once during 2nd Impact and when the embryo was given to Gendo.What`s the meaning of the embryo?

Reichu

April 16th, 2006, 05:41 PM

Adam and Lilith don't come from the same folks whoever they may be (this is somebody else's idea) but the reason we are called the false succesors from the black moon could be....Adam got here first, Lilith got here second...whoever sent Lilith used the LoL as a restraining device and let Lilith go about her progagation business.

By all indications, the two Moons are identical in structure. They let us know that the White Moon's "surface structure (is) clearly artificial" (which corresponds to the way that the Black Moon is composed of plated sections); they both have a pre-excavated Geofront at the top; and there is also mention of the White Moon having a Central Dogma. This would seem to imply that the Moons' creators are the same people.

Also, by all indications, the Spear of Longinus is Lilith's, and she took Adam out herself in the oft-mentioned Duel of the Seeds. There is a lot of discussion about this on the forum already.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Zugzwang-R/Tatig/Levi.jpg

This was designed by a guy called Levi, the first person to dip his toes into the concept of duality with pentagrams. Doesn't seem like Adam and Lilith really should be together at all.

Since the sole appearance of Sammael in the series is here (http://www.evacommentary.org/op/op_1.html#cut001b), exactly how is this particular esoteric reference relevant to the matter at hand?

Hell maybe SEELE was planning on insturmentatlity as a way to form a godlike being to transplant us to another world, one they didn't feel that we "stole".

NGE2 Classified Information 10-D

While the Angels were being engaged in battle, people were also making and advancing the plan for the path that leads to divinity.

The first step is the completion of Eva –- the body of a god and throne of a soul –- via the installation of an S2 Engine. The interfusion of souls follows. Afterwards, our final natural enemy, the Spear of Longinus security device, is annihilated. Thus, that which is nearly divine, or perhaps a god in and of itself, is brought to completion, and, with the Spear gone, cannot be destroyed by anyone.

Seele's intention for this man-made god is to guide the elite (themselves) to a nearly divine place.

Make you think of anything?

Episode #26'

Keel "The beginning and the end are in the same place. Good. With this, all is right."

:sploosh:

It seems to connect to this line from Kozo:

Fuyutsuki:
The Chamber of Guf has been unsealed...
Have the doors to the world's beginning and end finally opened?

The place that Keel's interested in going clearly isn't the final destination the Gehirn Trio have in mind for the OTHER form of Instrumentality made available through Adam's presence on Earth, which involves "boarding" Eva to "advance to a new world". Seele outright reject this concept when Gendo mentions it in his final meeting with them.

Even though what you say above does seem to involve removing humanity from Earth, in a sense, it isn't to a "world we didn't steal", but wherever we ultimately originated. (A thread in and of itself...) It is the OTHER scenario that would take us to another world (=planet) for some sort of rebirth, since the whole point of Instrumentality is evolving ourselves in this way.

When Kwaru decended into Terminal Dogma,he found Lillith instead of Adam.Count to think of it...Adam is only shown a few times in Evangelion,once during 2nd Impact and when the embryo was given to Gendo.What`s the meaning of the embryo?

Start here (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5662063&highlight=eventful#post5662063) and read the next couple of posts.

Matsu'o Tsurayaba

April 23rd, 2006, 04:36 PM

Does anyone think that Evangelion could have done more?I remember one point in which there was only 1 underwater Angel,and that the Eva Models were only land based.They could not fight in the air,or go into outerspace.Some like to theorize on what could have been..speaking about that...

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Xmas/Hikari_pilot.jpg
^There was a thread on this,but its now full of spam.I actually put up the same question on a good Eva website i know,and i got alot of replies.People put up reasons why Hikari,Kensuke,or a personal favorite..Maya could be Eva pilots.It makes you wonder what else could have been done..

BigBet

April 23rd, 2006, 08:50 PM

Maya? LoL... thats a new one... She's got even more hang ups than Shinji in killing anything.
<Imagines an EVA curled up in the foetal position> :naughty:

Bobert376

April 30th, 2006, 11:13 PM

Alright, I recently ordered Neon Genesis Evangelion: Another Cases for the PSP. So to get ready, I rewatched the entire series, and the Death/Rebirth and End of Evangelion movies. This is my third time watching the whole series in 6 years, and the third time seeing EoE in 3. Needless to say, no matter how many times I watch it, I always have questions. I'm not looking for one person to come in and be able to answer all my questions, and I'm sure not all of them can be answered, but if you see a question you think you know the answer too, or at least have a theory to, I honestly would love to hear it.

1. Who is Rei? What is Rei? I get the clone thing, I get she isn't a direct clone of Yui or anything, she's simply engineered to resemble Yui. But...I don't get Rei's relation to Lilith. Was she made from Lilith, like Unit 01? Is she an Angel? Is she "the soul of Lilith" The body on the cross, is that just a physcial place holder, as the real Lilith is in the current Rei host body? I understand the Rei's are just bodies..I don't understand where they got the soul to put in Rei, how they got a thinking brain. What is the deal in Episode 24 when she is standing in Terminal Dogma with an AT Field blazing. Was she trying to stop Kaworu? I dont understand why she goes from being a clone..shy girl..to being the being that gives shinji the fate of the world.

2. What did Ritsuko find in Unit 00's entry plug..after the self destruction? Obviously Rei II died..but..how do they preserve a soul if she died?

3. Kaworu, what makes this Angel different than the other Angels? What is Kaworu? Is he human? If the angels are just forms that humans could have been..what is Kaworu, a human form that can fly and has an external AT Field? Why does he appear in End of Evangelion with Giant Lillith Rei?

4. Yui. Why did she volunteer for Unit 01's test? I mean..I don't get it..Im getting some weird feeling that Yui knew the EVAs were a hell of a lot more important than everyone else. Were the Evangelions created...simply to prove what mankind could do? And Yui...why does she stay in the entry plug? Does she purposely want to be that one human being that is inside Unit 01 for the rest of time?

5. What is with the different angel attacks? What are they after? If they want to make contact with Adam...why do the 3rd, 4th, and 5th Angels attack Tokyo 3 when Adam is still in Germany? But, if they are after Lilith..then why does the 6th Angel attack the UN Fleet? No Lilith there, just Adam. What really do the angels want? Where did they come from?

6. How did Lilith and Adam get to earth? Was the 1st impact where Lilith came to earth in a meteor...is that what the Geofront is? The egg of Lilith..is that really where Lilith has always been? Her actual egg? Her container..is that what made the Geofront, the black moon is the meteor that hit the earth? The same with Antartica and the White Moon for Adam?

7. I don't understand 2nd Impact at all. So..they escavated the White Moon..and a large human body...Adam? But...I don't understand how things screwed up, they tried to capture him/her? But they were able to capture Lilith? If Adam was found with the Lance of Longinius in it's back..then..how did it end up in Lilith? How is Adam different than Lilith? How did Adams body go from being escavated like this http://www.evacommentary.org/full-op/full-op_C234_big.jpg to the giant of light that so resembles an Evangelion?

8. We know that Unit 01 came directly out of Lilith..I mean..directly. So this makes some sense at least...unit 01's mass came out of lilith's mass...a huge birth if you will. However..the rest are made from Adam. HUH? Adam is in embryonic form before the EVAs are even made, so how the heck do you squeeze unit 00, 02, 03, etc out of that? I guess you don't...so then..how are these EVAs created? Unit 01's birth makes more sense at least..it's a "person" if you will, with an already set mouth, eyes, etc. And especially..how are the later EVAs created when ADAM is in Gendou?

9. What purpose does the Lance serve? I always thought it was stuck into Lilith, to stop her growth. However, in a few episodes before the lance is used..we see EVA 00 walking with it at the VERY end of an episode. So...what? Did they just acquire the lance? Where was it then? What was stopping Lilith's growth before the lance was stuck in her? And whats the deal with the little legs growing out of Lilith's stumps..are those..little Eva 01s? Little humans..well...eva humans?

10. In End of Evangelion, we see Shinji choke Asuka once before the beach scene. Did this actually happen? Was it a flashback? I understand she was hitting him, etc..but..did he actually try to choke her while they were alone at Misato's? Why the hell?

11. Why does Shinji choke Asuka at the very end of EoE?

12. Why is Asuka even there with Shinji at the EoE? She died before the AT fields dissapeared..so isnt she dead? Not to mention..why is she there? Yui says as long as people have the will to live, they can come back to life and be in human form again

However, why is Asuka the only one we see? Im having a hard time believing she would even WANT to come back..much less be the ONLY one we see come back to life.

13. A lot of the effects I don't get. I understand all of the red things in EoE were the souls of people being sucked into the black moon, the sea of nothingness shinji rejects...but...what are the green crosses on the surface? And what is the significance of them shooting off the earths surface along with Unit 01 and the lance of longinius after he rejects complimentation?

14. Why do the EVA series just stop working? Why did they turn into Rei-heads in the first place?

15. Im guessing Earth is pretty screwed up now...why is everything red? Will the earth ever return to it's "normal"...like..pre-3rd impact? I cant imagine Shinji wanting to live in a world when its only going to be a very few people...and an uninhabitable environment.

See, this is what I hate about EoE...it does offer closure, yes..but..in the end..is creates just as many, if not more questions. We are talking 2 people are seen on earth in the end, shinji and asuka...on a red, scary earth, with destruction all around them. How can this be the end? Especialyl when Asuka clearly hates shinji still.

I'll probably have more questions later..but..any answers or thoughts are appreciated. I've just skimmed the surface I'm afraid.

I almost regret watching EVA again..because...up until episode 16..its pretty light..nice...you know...normal. But from then on..it's just so sad..I mean..I dont usually get affected by things that I know arent real, ESPECIALLY animation..but..I just feel such an emptiness..a sadness, after watching evangelion, especially EoE. I cant help but feel for the characters, IVe found myself especially feeling horrible about Asuka..and being so uneasy about her death in EoE.

I hate Evangelion, it puts me in a depression after watching it. And yet..I love it at the same time.

Perhaps that's the work of genius.

Ornette

May 1st, 2006, 12:06 AM

What is the deal in Episode 24 when she is standing in Terminal Dogma with an AT Field blazing. Was she trying to stop Kaworu? I dont understand why she goes from being a clone..shy girl..to being the being that gives shinji the fate of the world.
Presumably, she doesn't know what she is exactly until Kaworu tells her in ep24 (in 24' he's pretty blatant about it).

2. What did Ritsuko find in Unit 00's entry plug..after the self destruction? Obviously Rei II died..but..how do they preserve a soul if she died?
There was a theory that the soul sticks around inside the corpse (as seen in the tangification of the dead Nerv people in EoE), how they get the soul out and into another "vessel" I have no idea.

3. Kaworu, what makes this Angel different than the other Angels? What is Kaworu? Is he human? If the angels are just forms that humans could have been..what is Kaworu, a human form that can fly and has an external AT Field? Why does he appear in End of Evangelion with Giant Lillith Rei?

Kaworu: Hope? that's the Lilim's hope?

SEELE: There are as many forms of hope as there are people.

SEELE: Because hope exists only in the hearts of people.

Keel: But our hopes are materializing...

SEELE: In Lilith, progenitor of humanity - the false successors from the
Black Moon...

SEELE: And in Adam, progenitor of Angels - the true successors from
the lost White Moon.

SEELE: And whose salvaged soul resides only within you...

Kaworu has Adam's soul. Adam was merged with Gendo's hand, which was merged with Rei, who merged with Lilith, who became GNR. We see GNK because Adam's in there too.

Yui...why does she stay in the entry plug? Does she purposely want to be that one human being that is inside Unit 01 for the rest of time?
Yeah, during the talks she has with Fuyutsuki during those flashback scenes, it would seem she is well aware of what she is doing and what she's getting herself into.

6. How did Lilith and Adam get to earth? Was the 1st impact where Lilith came to earth in a meteor...is that what the Geofront is? The egg of Lilith..is that really where Lilith has always been? Her actual egg? Her container..is that what made the Geofront, the black moon is the meteor that hit the earth? The same with Antartica and the White Moon for Adam?
There was a lot of info from the NGE2 Classified Info, Reichu is currently working on a final translation on it here: http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=188682
Edit: after going through that thread, I realized that some of the relevant sections haven't been translated yet so I'll just quote it here, note that this isn't the final translation:
(From First Ancestral Race section)
At first there were people from space, the prototypical race, referred to as the First Ancestral Race, that began the scattering of the seeds of life throughout the Milky Way. The reason and purpose behind this we do not know, but one thing is clear, more than one type of seed was scattered. It was just bad luck that two kinds ended up in the same solar system [planet], specifically the white moon's Adam and then the black moon's Lilith.

(From the Geofront section)
First, the White Moon that Adam was in fell to Earth. Essentially, the Black Moon which was supposed to go to a different planetary system was captured in the Earth's gravitational field and crashed onto the surface of the Earth. The moon that carried the Black Moon bounced off the Earth and its wreckage became Earth's satellite. The Black Moon with Lilith inside remained on Earth and Lilith's seed was implanted.

It is believed that Lilith fell in the vicinity of the place now called The South Pole. After that, due to plate tektonics, the final resting place ended up being in the vicinity of the area known as Hakone, in Japan. There is a giant cavity in Hakone in which Nerv Headquarters would later be built.

7. I don't understand 2nd Impact at all. So..they escavated the White Moon..and a large human body...Adam? But...I don't understand how things screwed up, they tried to capture him/her?
I don't really know either, but most of what we're shown is in the beginning of ep21'. From the NGE2 CI, it says that Adam was blown to peices.

9. What purpose does the Lance serve? I always thought it was stuck into Lilith, to stop her growth. However, in a few episodes before the lance is used..we see EVA 00 walking with it at the VERY end of an episode. So...what? Did they just acquire the lance? Where was it then? What was stopping Lilith's growth before the lance was stuck in her? And whats the deal with the little legs growing out of Lilith's stumps..are those..little Eva 01s? Little humans..well...eva humans?
The NGE2 CI says the lance is a "security device", whatever that means...
Prior to Eva-00 bringing the lance down to Lilith, we see them recover it from Antarctica in ep12. Those little legs? They kinda look like Rei legs almost, but you also see that same motif right before the fake lances blow up (http://buzzy.tesuji.org/images/mpe_legs.jpg) in EoE.

10. In End of Evangelion, we see Shinji choke Asuka once before the beach scene. Did this actually happen? Was it a flashback? I understand she was hitting him, etc..but..did he actually try to choke her while they were alone at Misato's? Why the hell?
This bit was before the real instrumentality and presumably isn't a flashback but was happening inside of a "pre-instrumentality", which concludes with Shinji making the choice for everyone to die, thus starting the real instrumentality and everyone turning into orange goo. Note, that people have turned into goo prior to this, Misato for instance and presumably Asuka, which is why Misato is part of this pre-instrumentality (sex with Kaji scene).

12. Why is Asuka even there with Shinji at the EoE? She died before the AT fields dissapeared..so isnt she dead?
People who have died was also part of instrumentality, Misato gets a visit from Rei right before getting blown to bits (http://buzzy.tesuji.org/images/misato_blown_up.jpg), which happened before the AATF, and all the dead soldiers and Nerv people (http://buzzy.tesuji.org/images/rei_dead_people.jpg), who were already dead.

15. Im guessing Earth is pretty screwed up now...why is everything red? Will the earth ever return to it's "normal"...like..pre-3rd impact? I cant imagine Shinji wanting to live in a world when its only going to be a very few people...and an uninhabitable environment.
I'm guessing that it has something to do with the "Red Earth Ceremony", whatever that is. Shinji has somewhat come to terms with himself and chooses life, no matter if he gets hurt.

Especialyl when Asuka clearly hates shinji still.
But there is still hope (caress on the cheek)?

I hate Evangelion, it puts me in a depression after watching it. And yet..I love it at the same time.
It is, kind of in an uneasy way, but it's got nothing on Grave of the Fireflies.

CanonRAP

May 1st, 2006, 12:33 AM

I think the best thing to do would be to look back at the older threads.

http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=185499
http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=185453
http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=185630

And some of my own short answers:

Who is Rei? What is Rei?
Yui-leftovers + part of Lilith's soul = Rei

What did Ritsuko find...
I have no clue how Rei's burnt corpse could still be intact (hell, why is the plug intact?) or how her soul can still be in there...maybe Rei's body was specifically 'engineered' to somehow not let souls escape. Or maybe it's the plug that stops it.

Kaworu...
...is an Angel raised in captivity for Seele's purposes. Apparently ve was found as an egg washed up some shore on the day of 2I. (yes, I doubt Kaworu's gender)

Why did Yui volunteer for Sho's test?
She knew about Seele's plans, and she wanted her son to have a good future, so she purposely puts herself in Sho (which is a major part of Seele's plans)

Why. Angel. Attack.
Most of the Angels don't 'attack', but merely try to break through to the GeoFront = Black Moon, it being one of two places on the planet that they know of (the White Moon was destroyed in 2I) AFAIK, only Zeruel actually attacks Nerv HQ.

Adam and Lilith...
came to Earth as Seeds of Life. Why two on same planet? No idea. Also not sure whether it was one of them (or both of them) colliding with the Earth that caused GI.

Second Impact...
Not enough room for details...but the shoulder pylons are restraints that can apparently hold a lot of power in check. But you REALLY should read the older discussions.

Shinji choking Asuka...
The kitchen scene took place during HCP (since Asuka was already privy to the fact that Shinji did his business on her naked body) but "I Need You" took place on Earth, post-interrupted-3I.

Asuka's return
It is generally acknowledged that Shinji's been around for a while and Asuka floated out the LCL a little while after he did. Asuka came back because she "had to will to live on" (paraphrase). Technically, EVERYONE died during 3I (turning into LCL and all that, very similar to death)

freaky Ryousanki
They 'stopped working' after their core was destroyed (pierced by the Spear replicates, then the replicates were destroyed, so...) The Rei-heads were to represent how they merged/was assimilated by Rei.

I guess Earth is pretty screwed up now...
Yes it is. I guess that those who want to live again will float out of the soup of life, and what happens next? Who knows.

Hope this was helpful (and there are no opinions that directly contridict confirmed facts). If I gave false info, please correct.

EDIT: Ornette beat me to it <_<

CrossboneGundam

May 1st, 2006, 12:49 AM

There was no meteor. That was a cover-up. I thought that was explicitly stated in the series?

CanonRAP

May 1st, 2006, 12:53 AM

There was no meteor. That was a cover-up. I thought that was explicitly stated in the series?

When did he say that a meteor was involved in 2I...?

How did Lilith and Adam get to earth? Was the 1st impact where Lilith came to earth in a meteor...is that what the Geofront is?

Second Impact = meteorite was a cover-up, yes, but as he was referring to GI, I don't think it's incorrect to refer to the Black and White Moons as meteorites.

EDIT: A GeoFront is a Japanese term (in English) of an underground city (simplified definition). However, the one in Hakone (sp?) was not built by Japan, but already there as an underground cavity. The Egg of Lilith/Black Moon is buried underneath that, apparently. That would make Nerv HQ even below THAT, since even when the ground around the Black Moon was blown away and the Egg started to rise, Nerv HQ was intact.

Mr. Tines

May 1st, 2006, 03:05 AM

1. Who is Rei? What is Rei?

ReiI is the result of the failed salvage of Yui (alluded to in ep#20, when they dig out the old notes to try again for Shinji). The form is Yui, her soul is at least an aspect of Lilith's (there's a part of it in Unit-00, too); maybe even her flesh is actually Lilith's, at least for ReiII and up.

In episode 24

Kaoru: You are, the First Children?
Ayanami Rei.....
You are the same as me.

Rei: Who are you?

gives her a big fat clue; and her musings in 25

Rei: You are a false object which is pretending to be a human.
Look, you have a dark, invisible, and unintelligible mind
within you, where the true you exists.

show that she has realised that too.

She was countering Kawrou - he looks up to acknowledge her - just as Adam and Lilith fought aeons ago. And when she next returns to Terminal Dogma, she gives up the superficial Rei nature, and, with the standard homecoming greeting, reunites body and soul. At that point she has become a turbocharged super-being combining both Lilith and Adam.

2. but..how do they preserve a soul if she died?

It appears that the soul - the little red point of light - hangs around the body for a while after death, which is why the recovery of Rei's charred body (as glimpsed in the entry plug) was vital. And also why concealing the fact, so that ReiIII could be wheeled out without unwelcome questions.

3. What is Kaworu?

Kaworu is to Adam what Rei is to Lilith, but differs in being aware of the fact and its consequences. Rei absorbed the body of Adam (presumably reunited with its soul) along with the rest of Gendo's hand, before herself joining with Lilith

4. Yui. Why did she volunteer for Unit 01's test?

Becoming an Evangelion was her best shot at staying alive and thwarting SEELE's 3I Armageddon, so that her son could live. And then she gets to be mother to a whole new world, as a new Source of Life, like Lilith or Adam.

5. What is with the different angel attacks?

The Angels are offspring of Adam, born from seeds scattered by 2I. Where we glimpse their motivation, loneliness seems to be their driving force - and the GeoFront has the only grouping of Angel-like beings on the planet.

6. How did Lilith and Adam get to earth? <snip>

Yes. All about 4 billion years ago.

7. I don't understand 2nd Impact at all.

Both Adam and Liltih were in some state of torpor. It seems that Adam had been the loser in a struggle with Lilith, and that she was responsible for leaving Adam impaled on the Spear. The spear was retrieved by Antarctic Gendo's expedition in episode #12 (seen wrapped up on the carrier deck), and Rei inserted it into Lilith.

The Giant of Light is Adam plus Katsuragi Expedition experimental monitoring and activation gear, with her S^2 in overdrive.

Lilith and Adam are two different beings sent out by the Ancestral Race to populate the galaxy - they are different people with different ideas and methods.

8. Evas and Adam

Probably grown in a tank from other pieces of retrieved Adamic material from the debris of 2I.

9. What purpose does the Lance serve?

It appears to be the Ancestral Race equivalent of a Swiss Army knife.
The little legs are taller than humans. They may be unharvested Reis.

10. In End of Evangelion, we see Shinji choke Asuka once before the beach scene. Did this actually happen? Was it a flashback?

This is one of two twisted flashbacks; in the extended episode 23, the scene plays out with the coffee-pot spilling as Shinji clumsily tells Asuka that Kaji is dead. In the Complementation flashback, unspoken thoughts and metaphor come to the surface. In the real scene, Shinji's words were what finally drove her to slitting her wrists; here he kills her in literal fashion.

11. Why does Shinji choke Asuka at the very end of EoE?

This is a subject of continued debate. A semi-official explanation is to provoke rejection and thus confirm that this is reality - a weak explanation, as you don't need to go that far. Possibly it is anger and rage at being alone on the beach for a long time. Perhaps it is acceding to Asuka's final line in Complementation ("But if I have to be with you, I'd rather die!") in an act of twisted love that would do his father proud.

12. Why is Asuka even there with Shinji at the EoE?

We know Asuka is there in complementation - the very first to join Shinji, in fact

http://www.stevegilham.com/nge/asuka134.jpg
Asuka: Jeeez! I get so pissed off whenever I look at you!

We see the Rei-tachi harvesting the fallen in NERV who died in the conventional fighting.

Possibly this place is the nearest to where home used to be.

Yes, everyone can come back if they wish - we only see a little (time and space) of post 3I earth. Shinji being first -well, he's done this before.

For Asuka, can see your reasoning. I think she wants out of the LCL Limbo so she can die and be done with it (hence not putting up a struggle).

13. what are the green crosses on the surface?

Much debated. My first take was that it was post-Complemented humankind scattering like thistledown to the stars.

14. Why do the EVA series just stop working?

Twelve-winged Yui-sama switches everything off that might allow humans to tamper with Angelic technology without getting there from first principles. The Rei-headedness is probably a manifestation of Lilith/Rei taking them over.

15. I'm guessing Earth is pretty screwed up now

I'd go with that.

http://www.stevegilham.com/nge/torino9.jpg

Rei's collapsing body would be as bad as a dinosaur-killer asteroid strike, and that's before whatever the LCL/Red effect may be. A definite case of "And the living shall envy the dead."

"Shinji, this is what happens if you sit in a funk when people need you to do something - the world goes to hell around you. This is the world you made, and you're welcome to it."

See, this is what I hate about EoE...

Pretty much my feelings there, too. Especially for/about Asuka.

Shin-seiki

May 1st, 2006, 04:17 AM

EDIT: A GeoFront is a Japanese term (in English) of an underground city (simplified definition). However, the one in Hakone (sp?) was not built by Japan, but already there as an underground cavity. The Egg of Lilith/Black Moon is buried underneath that, apparently. That would make Nerv HQ even below THAT, since even when the ground around the Black Moon was blown away and the Egg started to rise, Nerv HQ was intact.NERV HQ is inside the Geofront, which = the Black Moon, which = Lilith's Egg. Fuyutsuki and the others are riding it up into space right up to the end, when everyone goes sploosh. Don't ask why there's no decompression as they leave the atmosphere; anime physics, I suppose...

Mr. Tines

May 1st, 2006, 05:09 AM

It takes a long time to decompress a large vessel, as some of the studies for L5 O'Neill colonies showed; and inside the NERV structures, there are bulk-heads everywhere. This bit I think is - perhaps accidentally - not too unreasonable.

Reichu

May 1st, 2006, 06:23 AM

I have no clue how Rei's burnt corpse could still be intact (hell, why is the plug intact?)

That's a good question... The total unlikelyhood that the entry plug would survive EVA-00's self-destruction, in any way, actually reminds me of the fact that, although Adam blew sky-high, she left two miniscule eggs behind.

Apparently ve was found as an egg washed up some shore on the day of 2I. (yes, I doubt Kaworu's gender)

The photograph from the Reiquarium just seems to show the egg bobbing in the ocean:

Original:

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-23/23_C317_npc_30_crop.jpg

Unfinished "painting out Rei in Photoshop for hell of it" version:

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-23/23_C317_npc_30_cleanup.jpg

Another "you never see something just once", incidentally:

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-12/12_C014_original_mid.jpg

AFAIK, only Zeruel actually attacks Nerv HQ.

Ireul also got in, but attacked the MAGI through the Simultation Bodies instead of breaking into the Control Center to vaporize the main staff at Point-Blank Range. (He obviously has some anger issues.) Others attacked the cap of the Geofront (Sachiel, Ramiel, etc.), presumably with some interest in the Black Moon's goodies.

Bobert376

May 1st, 2006, 10:02 AM

Wait..so..when they tried to capture Adam during second impact..she just...detonated? But there was still adam material left over? When Adam detonated it spread angel eggs?

But..did they find lilith when they escavated the geofront? I just don't understand how you go from finding Lilith to having her give birth to a huge humanlike thing.

Oh, and...during complementation...is that ALL in shinjis head? Or are the souls of the dead people actually communicating with him...like how you say Asuka "appears first in complimentation"?

Mr. Tines

May 1st, 2006, 10:11 AM

Wait..so..when they tried to capture Adam during second impact..she just...detonated? But there was still adam material left over? When Adam detonated it spread angel eggs?

That is the best understanding we have, based partly on the NGE2 material

But..did they find lilith when they escavated the geofront? I just don't understand how you go from finding Lilith to having her give birth to a huge humanlike thing.

Yes, presumably she was in place at the time. The rest is the application of the applied metabiology that Yui and Kozo were experts in (and thus of interest to SEELE for).

Oh, and...during complementation...is that ALL in shinjis head? Or are the souls of the dead people actually communicating with him...like how you say Asuka "appears first in complimentation"?

It's all in everyone's head; as Gendo puts it in ep#25, "All the minds become one mind". The barriers between people, between souls, are down.

Bobert376

May 1st, 2006, 10:32 AM

If it's everyone's thoughts...are the parts when misato is talking, asuka is talking, etc..is that really them? Does everyone "hear" them so to speak?

so...

when people come back to life..they're gonna be like

"Shinji wtf"?

Bobert376

May 1st, 2006, 10:50 AM

Oh, and I guess one of my most important questions I forgot

Why does Rei appear on the street before Shinji in the first episode?

CanonRAP

May 1st, 2006, 11:06 AM

The Edit button is your friend :)

Quantum mechanics, time travel, whatever. Who knows. I assume that people would forget most of the insanity that was 3I, though they would have flashbacks and such...

Mr. Tines

May 1st, 2006, 11:21 AM

.is that really them? Does everyone "hear" them so to speak?

Yes, and this is made clear in the breakdown into a cacophony of voices towards the end of complementation.

..they're gonna be like

"Shinji wtf"?

We have speculated about the queue forming to give Shinji a good smacking.

Why does Rei appear on the street before Shinji in the first episode?

There should be something on that here:-
http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=112336

It is a narrative end-stop, like her appearance just before the end of EoE; to also let us know that there is something unearthly about this girl when we see her later

Bobert376

May 1st, 2006, 12:41 PM

So..why does she appear at the end of EoE? Is it like a "goodbye" of sorts? His last vision? Kinda like how at the beginning he sees her..now..he sees her for the last time?

And wait...you know how they say Rei is created from remains of Yui?

Well..how? I thought Yui simply DISSAPEARED in the entry plug, no physical trace left.

What really was the accident that took Yui into Unit 01? Was it an accident?

I just don't understand how Unit 01 randomly was so compatible with Yui that she dissapeared into it

I guess what I mean is...how did she die? I get that it was an accident

but...what kind of accident? How?

Also, in the activation test with orange Unit 00, the one before the first episode of Evangelion, how on earth did all that result in Rei being hurt?

We see her open both eyes, look at Gendou when he opens the hatch of the entry plug...she doesnt exactly look injured

so how does she go from that to having bandages all over her?

Reichu

May 1st, 2006, 02:53 PM

Wait..so..when they tried to capture Adam during second impact..she just...detonated?

Adam was already "captured" by the Katsuragi Team; being skewered by Lilith's Spear of Longinus put her into suspended animation, and the dormant state subsisted, for unknown reasons, even after the Spear was removed. Second Impact -- the mysterious catastrophe at the South Pole -- was somehow connected to the Contact Experiment performed on Adam. The utilization of her Super Solenoid appears to have been involved, and it went haywire beyond both the Katsuragi Team's and even Adam's ability to control.

Perhaps what Ritsuko said in #07...

RITSUKO:
Fifteen years ago at the south Pole, mankind discovered the humanoid being
known as the first "Angel". However, in the middle of the investigation,
for reasons unknown, there was a huge explosion.
That is the real truth behind the Second Impact.

...isn't actually a lie at all, just not the complete picture.

But there was still adam material left over? When Adam detonated it spread angel eggs?

Sachiel through Armisael seem to have already been preexisting as eggs, just not endowed with souls until Adam reawakened -- an explanation for the rather mysterious comment by a Katsuragi Team member, in #21', anticipating the opening of the Doors of Guf, and why Adam's children only hatched 15 years after the incident (in a way Seele were able to anticipate). And, yes; they were somehow spread around the world as a result of the Big Kablooie. (See Sandalphon in the volcano, for instance.)

In #25', we're told that Adam was reduced to an egg as a result of 2I, which seems to imply that nothing else was left. As Ritsuko said in #23, "the god they went to such great lengths to find disappeared completely" (or something along those lines) -- but, somehow or another, left a fragment behind from which she was able to be "resurrected".

The objects in the mystery photo I posted before seem to be the egg from which the A-01 sample from grown (on the left), and a more developed egg on the right, reminiscent in shape to Sandalphon's "chrysalis" (albeit half-concealed by a wave). ...But who could the latter possibly be? :shifty:

But..did they find lilith when they escavated the geofront?

Yes.

I just don't understand how you go from finding Lilith to having her give birth to a huge humanlike thing.

If you go along with the theory I advocated way back, Gehirn used her as a surrogate womb for their Test Type, with the resultant mess -- Lilith shriveling up as a result of EVA-01, remaining partially entombed within a distended, marshmallowy... yeah..., gobbling up biomass faster than Mom could compensate -- a possibly unforeseen consequence of Lilith's bizarre physical properties. But the end product is all that matters, right? :P

Bobert376

May 1st, 2006, 03:06 PM

But..if she was the womb that birthed the EVA..where did they get an embryo? Unless you are saying Unit 01 is part adam AND lilith?

Reichu

May 1st, 2006, 04:00 PM

And wait...you know how they say Rei is created from remains of Yui?

Well..how? I thought Yui simply DISSAPEARED in the entry plug, no physical trace left. <snip>

A summary of what seems to have been going on with Yui, EVA-01, and Rei:

It's implied that Yui and Gendo formed a partnership against Seele from the start, with Fuyutsuki-sensei (someone they both respected) eventually getting drawn into their circle of mischief. Gendo was able to get his foot in the door of Seele with Yui's "aid" (aherm) and, using his magical powers of toad-eating, ingratiate himself with Keel, who totally fell for the act (for, what, fifteen years?). The interchange between Keel and Gendo at the UN Base in Antarctica (#21'), extremely brief as it is, is also very revealing:

Keel "'Scientists'... They put too much faith in their own ideas."
Ikari "Is it self-righteousness?"
Keel "So caught up in their dogma, they lose their grip on reality."
Ikari "Yet they are the ones who are searching for the truth. How ironic."
Keel "They are not so noble. Discovery is joy, and understanding leads to control. All they seek is their own exaltation."

That Keel feels at such liberty to diss scientists around Gendo, and Gendo simply nods his head like a faithful pet, is interesting -- considering that Keel ought to know that Gendo is, well, MARRIED to a scientist (and a Seele-born one at that). That Gendo's putting on an act is pretty evident, considering that both the woman he loves and the man he respects the most are both the sorts of people Keel loathes, and Gendo exalts science as "the power of man". What this suggests, to me, is that the fact that Gendo and Yui were actually in love was not common knowledge, and even Keel bought into the concept that Gendo had simply used Yui to get into Seele. And that was fine with him.

More to the point: Gendo was on Keel's "good side" and he didn't have the disabling status of being 'scientist scum'. They're useful for Seele's goals, sure, but they're ultimately nothing but disposable brains. Yui included. As the bioengineering genius behind the Evas, she was necessary -- but, once she had done her part, she could be eliminated if it was appropriate. The dialogue between Yui and Kozo in #21' rather subtly intimates that Yui's primary reason for becoming the "test subject" is because she herself was blacklisted; even though her husband might have been in safe territory, Seele had caught wind of her own traitorous intentions, and she didn't have much time.

The original plan that "the trio" had in mind isn't quite known, and Yui doesn't seem to have planned for what happened, either. (If what she said when she first met Fuyutsuki-sensei is any indication, she would have been content to "find that special someone" and have a family.) At threat of liquidation, however, putting herself into the Eva was the only feasible course of action, and she did this by becoming the test subject for EVA-01's Contact Experiment.

What was the actual purpose of the CE? There was an intention, which we can only extrapolate, that was "understood" by most of the staff, but what would ACTUALLY happen was known only by Yui and Kozo. The CE involved Yui donning a "dive suit" and entering EVA-01's core; subsequent events produced the mysterious "400% synchronization rate", the reduction of her body to LCL, and the relocation of her soul to the Eva's core.

It seems that, on an intrinsic level, an Eva's empty core craves a mother's soul. During her own Contact Experiment with EVA-02, Kyoko -- who seemed to have every intention of leaving that entry plug intact -- lost the "maternal component" of her soul to the Eva, which (among various other things) seems rather telling. Yui, on the other hand, HAD every intention of "dying" and changing bodies, which probably plays a heavy hand in the discrepancy between her CE and Kyoko's.

In any case, to those who were expecting something else to happen, Yui's body going "splat" and her soul being swallowed whole by the Eva sure did come across as a "freak accident". Gendo was left with an entry plug containing "Yui Juice" and, for some unknown period of time, no explanation. It may have been his own belief that it was an accident, and a lack of knowledge about Yui's motives, that led to the salvage operation (which is mentioned in #20) -- a failure, since Yui didn't budge, but at least he got a "daughter" out of it. :P But, uh, this is too long as it is, so I'm gonna stop.

So, why was Gendo left in the dark in the first place? Hmm...

BTW, providing full citations for all of this would take forever, so if you want something specifically, just ask. ;) There are a lot of fuzzy areas, mind.

Bobert376

May 1st, 2006, 04:10 PM

So..Gendou didnt know Yui wanted to "die" in Unit 01? Because I mean..he seems pretty distraught over his wife dying, and he tried to bring her back and all...

so...dive suit..is just a plug suit? So, she went into EVA 01's body in an entry plug..then lost her soul.

But why did her body turn to LCL?

And, is it safe to say..that whenever an EVA is "born"..the first actual person to be put into it, will lose some of, and in some cases all of their soul? Because that's the one thing the EVA needs?

And about Asuka at the end of EoE

is she there because Shinji wished for her to be there with him along with accepting real life? Or is it just some weird coincidence that when she regained her human form, she not only appears to be one of the first people in the world to do it..but does it right next to Shinji

man, I remember back when I though the whole thing was Shinji and Asuka like Adam and Eve, where they have to repopulate the earth. Thats why i thought she said "Kimochi warui".

But with Yui saying "as long as they have the will to live, anyone can regain their human form", and the fact that it seems Asuka says what she says because Shinji is still a weakling

CanonRAP

May 1st, 2006, 04:11 PM

It's probably a small thing, but does the fact that Yui's suit is different have anything to do with why her Contact when 'awry'? Since Plug Suits (apparently) boost sync-rates, could hers be specificially made to allow her to enter Eva?

CanonRAP

May 1st, 2006, 04:14 PM

But why did her body turn to LCL?

When the person in the plug gets that super-sync (400%+) I suppose that at that point Eva = pilot, as the pilot's consciousness is inside Eva, and there is really no need for a body anymore...so it dissolves into LCL.

If anyone can help me explain this (I'm bad with words) it would be much appreciated :P

(didn't notice the double-post, by the way)

Mr. Tines

May 1st, 2006, 04:48 PM

It is possible Yui didn't tell Gendo everything - possibly for his own good.

The dive suit is just a 2004 model plug-suit.

An "unformatted" EVA seems to require a mother's soul; Yui, I think, pushed the process to its extreme (so there would be no body).

---

Once he had given the instruction to end Conmplementation, Shinji had no special powers. I think where the two ended up was as near home as was left after the messy events of (and leading up to) 3I.

>>I remember back when I though the whole thing was Shinji and Asuka like Adam and Eve, where they have to repopulate the earth.<<

I first took it as anti-Eden at the end of the world, with the bodies formed by will being post-mortal "perfected" ones. And the reaction being "Here I am, stuck with this jerk for all eternity."

>>Thats why i thought she said "Kimochi warui".<<

If you haven't read http://animaniajapan.livedoor.biz/archives/17687653.html yet, then that gives some context as to how that line came to be.

Bobert376

May 1st, 2006, 05:25 PM

XD

the last line finally makes sense to me

thanks for posting that

but..how did Asuka know Shinji did that?

Furthermore...when is it really shown clearly that Shinji has a thing for Asuka? I mean..he really acts the same way as he did around Rei around her. I don't understand his line "Im scared of Misato and Ayanami" before he does his things in Asuka's hospital room

Reichu

May 1st, 2006, 05:32 PM

[EDIT: Another gratuitously long Reichu spiel written while shorter and more practical answers were being posted. Fu~.]

So..Gendou didnt know Yui wanted to "die" in Unit 01? Because I mean..he seems pretty distraught over his wife dying, and he tried to bring her back and all...

Exactly. The big question here is why Yui would only discuss the matter with her sensei and not with her own husband. Fuyutsuki clearly told Gendo about it eventually, and the latter "got over it" (to the degree that he could) and readjusted the Plan to include 'personal considerations'. Well, that's what it looks like, anyhow.

so...dive suit..is just a plug suit?

That's the name given to the plugsuit-like getup (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-21/episode-21B-scene6.html#cut169) Yui is shown wearing on the site of the CE. As far as I know, the first (and only) appearance of the term is in the Renewal 5.1 Supplemental Dialogue (which is rather useful stuff that was added to flesh out various techie details).

Random: The word "dive" (in English) also turns up in association with Adam's CE. ("The genes that dived [dive shita] into Adam have already fused physically!") NGE likes to make connections via visuals and language, so I wonder if this is an intentional detail.

But why did her body turn to LCL?

In #20, an extensive gobbledygook explanation (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5694447&postcount=113) is provided for what happened to Shinji (after the mysterious incident in #19), which is depicted as a "replay", in many respects, of Yui's "accident". The babble there ties into the primary function of the A.T. Field, as an emanation of the soul ("the wall of the heart") that "separates one person from another". In Lilim, whose soul is contained by the body as a whole (not a core), the destruction of the "ego border" ("ego" in the sense of "self"), whatever exactly that is or how it is accomplished, results in the body being unable to maintain its integrity. As a result, it disintegrates into LCL (returning to the beginning, in a sense), and the soul is no longer contained by its original vessel. :unsure: Or... something along those lines. A lot of metabiological technobabble. I don't even think I know what I'm talking about anymore. :lol:

So, my non-answer in short: Yui's "contact" (a linkup to both the central nervous system and the core, in Eva pilot-like manner, I suppose) with the Eva, along with her own desire to "die", somehow had the effect of destroying the border between herself and EVA-01, that is, her physical body.

I think it almost makes sense in my head, but I have no idea how to verbalize it. Maybe someone else can. :P

And, is it safe to say..that whenever an EVA is "born"..the first actual person to be put into it, will lose some of, and in some cases all of their soul? Because that's the one thing the EVA needs?

Evas are born without both two things they're "supposed" to have (as "copies" of Adam): souls and the Super Solenoid Engine. That Adam's own offspring don't seem to be born with souls might explain why the former happens, and the latter is connected to the former (the Fruit of Life is required to generate one's own S2). So you're half-right. ;)

My own suspicion is that "not just any soul can sit on Eva's thrown" -- i.e., there is something about their innate nature that naturally accomodates a mother's soul. That the maternal component of Kyoko's is all that EVA-02 managed to get from the CE itself is quite suspicious, along with many other things: the heavily reinforced Eva-mother/female stuff, children-pilots without mothers, EVA-01/Yui + Shinji and EVA-02/Kyoko + Asuka, the Class 2-A conspiracy, Evas being based on a Seed of Life who is described as a mother, blah blah blah...

But..if she was the womb that birthed the EVA..where did they get an embryo? Unless you are saying Unit 01 is part adam AND lilith?

Part Lilith in the sense of being a surrogate daughter, although EVA-01 doesn't seem to have a whole lot in common with the body that gave rise to her. Evas are by definition facsimiles of Adam created by humanity, a point that is consistently reinforced throughout the show; EVA-01's naked face even appears side-by-side with the title "ADAM" in the opening sequence. Her only real distinction seems to be the way she was produced, but that is enough to make her rather special.

The "surrogate womb" idea wouldn't involve creating an embryo in advance or anything. Seele's minions clearly have some way of making Evas "from scratch", starting with some tweaked form of the Adam genome and generating (or attempting to) the finished product through completely artificial growth processes. In theory, if Lilith indeed has an operational uterus attached to the magical place the LCL is seeping from, a more natural Eva production method could be utilized: Transplantation of Test Type genome into nucleus of Lilith ovum, implantation into womb, pregnancy induced, various fun follows.

Possibilities, anyhow. There is a "budding" theory about, but I don't find it particularly convincing.

Bobert376

May 1st, 2006, 06:00 PM

Wait...if they got Unit 01 successfully out of Lilith...why didnt they make Unit 00 that way?

And..it seems like Unit 01 has been around for a long time..did it come before Unit 00?

Reichu

May 1st, 2006, 07:49 PM

Wait...if they got Unit 01 successfully out of Lilith...why didnt they make Unit 00 that way?

The final EVA-00 is one success out of a long chain of failures (the ones that reached full size alone range in the dozens), and, even so, is still a somewhat "crappy" Eva. (And check out that one eye. Yeah, it's a Gunbuster reference, but, still, WTF?) Figuring out how to make Evas seems to have been a pretty difficult process of trial and error. (Why the prior prototypes all failed is sort of mysterious, though.)

Using Lilith from the get-go is sort of counterintuitive; and producing only one Eva ravished her body. The official reasons for creating an Eva using her are never actually spelled out, either. The designation of "Test Type" makes it sound like an experimental sort of thing.

And..it seems like Unit 01 has been around for a long time..did it come before Unit 00?

Nope. EVA-00 just idled around without a soul longer than the other two main Evas (who got theirs in 2004 and 2005).

DatDude

May 1st, 2006, 07:49 PM

Umm Chu just because one angel " hatched " so to speak dosnt mean they all did. They all don't have long razor arms, or look like giant diamonds in the sky.

Anno probably didn't think that hard on it, and just used them to further the plot with out thinking about the biology much.

Bobert376

May 1st, 2006, 08:03 PM

So..they basically just kept growing Zero after Zero, and one finally grew all the way, satisfactory?

I understand that Zero is inferior to the other EVAs..I think it's mentioned once or something, hence why it's always given support or defending jobs.

At the very end of EoE, when Asuka says her famous line

well..uhh..how did she know Shinji did his business in her hospital room? She was unconcious..or is this because of complementation, and shinji's thoughts being heard round the "world" so to speak?

If so...damn..he's got a hell of a lot to explain if/when the people he know's re-materialize

Furthermore...when is it really shown clearly that Shinji has a thing for Asuka? I mean..he really acts the same way as he did around Rei around her. I don't understand his line "Im scared of Misato and Ayanami" before he does his things in Asuka's hospital room

I know I asked the above two questions earlier..and Im not trying to be pushy or anything, Im just simply restating incase anyone didnt read, etc

Ornette

May 1st, 2006, 08:12 PM

Shinji: I want to help you in some way... and to be with you forever.

There's also a rather long thread that deals with their relationship
Shinji and Asuka (http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=104577)

Bobert376

May 1st, 2006, 08:14 PM

when did he say the "and be with you forever" part?

and umm...

thats a 48 page topic ><

I dont have THAT much free time

Ornette

May 1st, 2006, 08:17 PM

in pre-instrumentality in ep26'

LuigiHann

May 1st, 2006, 08:17 PM

Yeah, part of complementation seems to entail the inability to hide things from one another (or perhaps they still can hide things, but their subconsious desire to reveal them overrides the consious desire to hide).
It's never truly explicit that Shinji has a thing for Asuka, but the way they act seems to make more sense that way than otherwise.
I think he's afraid of Ayanami because of what he now knows about her, he has trouble dealing with the idea that she isn't "human." I'm not quite sure why he's afraid of Misato, it could be any number of things, but the scene where she puts her hand on his and he tells her to leave him alone seems to be a focal point of that.
Also, of the three girls, Asuka is the only one that Shinji doesn't view as a sort of mother figure.

Bobert376

May 1st, 2006, 08:19 PM

where pre-instrumentality?

Cause I mean..I saw EoE just yesterday, and I don't remember that

I remember when she was sitting at the table, he can over and said he wanted to help her..then bam..that set her off and led to him strangling her

CanonRAP

May 1st, 2006, 08:22 PM

So..they basically just kept growing Zero after Zero, and one finally grew all the way, satisfactory?
There were several scenes throughout the series (EoE in particular, but also one of the DC episodes) that show various Eva with just the spine remaining, the an orange-helmeted head (with varying number of eyes). The ones in EoE also had 'REJECT' printed on them.

I understand that Zero is inferior to the other EVAs..I think it's mentioned once or something, hence why it's always given support or defending jobs.
Even after Zero was 'upgraded' for combat (shoulder pylons, holsters, etc.) it was still mostly for backup. It really didn't compare to those built for combat (02+)

well..uhh..how did she know Shinji did his business in her hospital room? She was unconcious..or is this because of complementation, and shinji's thoughts being heard round the "world" so to speak?
If you're talking about the kitchen scene...yes that took place during Complementation. Though as to whether that scene was 'imagined' by Shinji or actually took place while everyone was a 'single being', I don't know. I think that scene was imagined by Shinji as part of Complementation...

Bobert376

May 1st, 2006, 08:55 PM

Actually, I was talking about when Shinji jerked it to comatose Asuka in the real world.

And to restate my question, when EXACTLY does Shinji say " I want to help you in some way... and to be with you forever."

because I'm pretty sure he never said that in the "real" world

LuigiHann

May 1st, 2006, 09:51 PM

He wouldn't dare say that in the real world. He says it to her during complemention during the same scene that he strangles her. The world of complementation seems to be one of unchecked emotion, so to speak.

Bobert376

May 1st, 2006, 10:05 PM

oh...so..but judging by how things were when humanity was complemented

everyone "heard" shinji...wait

if thats the case..why didnt shinji hear everyone else in the complemented state?

CanonRAP

May 1st, 2006, 10:26 PM

LuigiHann

May 1st, 2006, 11:30 PM

He does, when he listens. There's one part where it seems like every girl in the world is rejecting him; that's pretty much what's actually happening, as far as I can tell. As a matter of fact, most of what Asuka and Misato say, for instance, are their innermost thoughts being made explicit.

Mr. Tines

May 1st, 2006, 11:36 PM

>> but..how did Asuka know Shinji did that?

"All minds become one mind"

We see her reaction in the train-car scene, between the two twisted flashbacks:

(Green images of Shinji in Asuka's sickroom from 'Air')

Asuka:
Idiot! I 'know' about your jerk-off fantasies of me.
Do it again like usual... I'll even stand here and watch.

>> If so...damn..he's got a hell of a lot to explain

Everyone will have had a peek at everyone else's dirty little secrets, so he wouldn't be the only one.

>> if thats the case..why didnt shinji hear everyone else in the complemented

After everyone has melted down into LCL...

SCENE: Inside Lilith-Rei - Shinji hears laughing voices and sees countless spirit-Reis flowing towards a red core

Shinji:
(gasp)Ayanami... Rei?

(Inside Shinji's mind - Flashing psychological scenes)
Random voices (Asuka, Misato, etc.):

I hate you. I wouldn't be caught dead with you! Don't get me wrong... Do you really think I could ever like you? You have nothing to do with my life anymore. Get away from me! ... and don't call me anymore! Stubborn bastard... Don't follow me around anymore. Your type makes me sick! I'm sorry... (laughter) We're nothing more than friends. Annoying bastard... Why don't you learn to give up? There's no way I'd ever go back to you. I HATE YOU! Go away! (laughter) It'd be better if you'd never been born. Dammit, get away from me! I hate you! You're a pain in the [bum]! (laughter)

(Translator's Note: The script printed in the Newtype filmbook differs slightly from the spoken lines as follows:
I hate you. I could never like you. Goodbye, and don't call me anymore! Stubborn bastard... I have no intention of going back to you. I'm sorry, but there's no way we could ever make up now. Idiot - I was only faking it (orgasm). Did you really think that? Honestly, take a good look at who/what you are. We're nothing more than friends. It'd be better if you'd never been born! Bye-bye - and while you at it why don't you just go and die? I wish you weren't here. Who is this child? I don't know this child. It makes no difference whether you are here or not. To put it bluntly, you're a nuisance, and meddlesome to boot. Don't follow me around anymore. It's no good, let's break up. To be honest, you don't just make me uncomfortable -- I hate your type the worst of all. Don't get me wrong... who would ever be with you. Go away! You have nothing to do with my life anymore. I HATE YOU! I don't need you!)

which sounds like everyone shouting at everyone else at once.

>> Furthermore...when is it really shown clearly that Shinji has a thing for Asuka?

This is NGE - you don't get "clearly". Be aware, though, that the bulk of the folk here are S/A shippers of one degree or another, and tend to put the most S/A-positive spin on what we see.

What we see includes his two approaches to her while she is not conscious (trying to kiss her while she is asleep back in ep#9, as well as the hospital scene), and the lukewarm "I want to help you in some way... and to be with you forever." at the start of the Complementation scene which ends with him strangling her (a case of actions giving the lie to the words).

>> I remember when she was sitting at the table, he can over and said he wanted to help her..then bam..that set her off and led to him strangling her

That's the scene.

>> thats a 48 page topic >< I dont have THAT much free time

Take it in bite-size chunks; the first couple of pages, at least, which lay out the case.

>> (Luigi) I'm not quite sure why he's afraid of Misato

The come-on in ep#23, plus her matter-of-fact attitude with respect to Kaworu's death.

mr_random

May 1st, 2006, 11:57 PM

2. What did Ritsuko find in Unit 00's entry plug..after the self destruction? Obviously Rei II died..but..how do they preserve a soul if she died?
I had always thought that when Rei was in that tank hooked to that huge machine, down in the depths of Nerv with Gendo, that they were doing some kind of "backups." (Maybe into one of the other bodies.) Which I thought explained why when Rei III cried in her apartment she said it was the first time she had done so.

Also, not sure if this exactly means much, but I thought when Shinji got absorbed, it changed the LCL (into something like primordial soup I believe they said), so maybe it wasn't quite the same as going pop in instrumentality (just combining with Unit 01 instead of everyone), could explain why he was able to come back rather easily compared to during 3I.

5. What is with the different angel attacks? What are they after? If they want to make contact with Adam...why do the 3rd, 4th, and 5th Angels attack Tokyo 3 when Adam is still in Germany? But, if they are after Lilith..then why does the 6th Angel attack the UN Fleet? No Lilith there, just Adam. What really do the angels want? Where did they come from?
I have been toying with a notion that maybe the angels are simply trying to continue the battle fought by Adam and Lilith long ago. So maybe they are trying to get into the geofront to try to kill Lilith. I assume this would cause the 3rd impact. Which could explain why some angels simply tried to destroy Nerv. Also, in that case, Gaghiel could have been going after Adam because it would be a good thing to have an original "soldier" helping you.

Reichu

May 2nd, 2006, 12:04 AM

I always thought Shinji was something of a 'focal point' during Complementation (according to ADV's dubs, Seele says something like: "By using the incomplete soul of the pilot of EVA-01, we will complement [some stuff]"). I could be wrong.

That would be Manga. ADV lost out on EoE.

"Eva Unit 01's pilot, complement humanity with your imperfect ego." (Or something like that.) "Focal point" seems to be about right, yes indeedy; some recent banter here (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5642838&postcount=40).

and the lukewarm "I want to help you in some way... and to be with you forever." at the start of the Complementation scene which ends with him strangling her (a case of actions giving the lie to the words).

I'm still not sure how you justify the "lukewarm", or why a metaphysical strangling in response to what Asuka deals him is somehow incompatible with the notion that Shinji meant every word of what he said... Not to get into THAT debate again, but you consistently repeat these sentiments, which seem to lean heavily on pejorative assumptions about Shinji's character that aren't IMO in any way supported by a "full sampling" of his rather complicated person.

Mr. Tines

May 2nd, 2006, 12:19 AM

I'm still not sure how you justify the "lukewarm"

Those words fit pity better than they do love. Asuka's reaction makes far more sense when it's taken as pity.

incompatible with the notion that Shinji meant every word of what he said...

His actions were neither helpful(*) nor conducive of a long-lasting association. The exact opposite of his words, in fact.

*With the proviso that suicidal Asuka might consider this helpful; but it's still not the start of anything long-term.

Reichu

May 2nd, 2006, 12:50 AM

Those words fit pity better than they do love. Asuka's reaction makes far more sense when it's taken as pity.

Why would Shinji pity her? And have you considered other contributing factors to Asuka's reactions -- say, those on Asuka's side? It takes two to tango.

It's interesting to note how much of what Asuka throws in Shinji's direction also applies to herself in some fashion... She actually seems to be acting as an incredible bully in this scene, and Shinji makes no real attempt to defend himself. (And, when he finally snaps, Asuka herself returns the favor and doesn't struggle.)

His actions were neither helpful(*) nor conducive of a long-lasting association. The exact opposite of his words, in fact.

One's desires and intentions often produce the opposite effect -- human interactions are never simple. There was no point as which Shinji had any mastery over these "long-lasting associations", either, so the expectation that he actually has a solid conception of how to form one is unfounded. He's exactly what he's depicted as: an adolescent boy "groping blindly", as it were, through life, and an incredibly stressful and traumatic life, at that.

Unfortunately, the other side is not a particularly good communicator, either, as rather succintly summarized by the montage of clips during the train sequence accompanying Shinji's lines, "How can I understand... If you don't say anything? You don't say anything... You don't talk to me... How can I understand you? It's IMPOSSIBLE!!"

Mr. Tines

May 2nd, 2006, 01:25 AM

I had always thought that when Rei was in that tank hooked to that huge machine, down in the depths of Nerv with Gendo, that they were doing some kind of "backups."

That would be part of the dummy-plug program -

Ritsuko:This is the prototype dummy plug.
Rei's personality was transfered,
although the human mind and spirit are not digitalizable.
This is nothing but a fake, a copy
which imitates the pilot's thinking. It's nothing but a machine.

In the NGE world of metabiology, they have to get the actual soul, rather than just taking a brain-state backup.

Why would Shinji pity her?

In the prototype scene, he would know that he had bad news that he was going to have to break to her, and, sensitive soul that he was, being sorry for her in advance seems reasonable. In Complementation, he should have some awareness of her pain, the pain that then makes her strike out like a wounded animal.

Bobert376

May 2nd, 2006, 08:46 AM

After everyone has melted down into LCL...

SCENE: Inside Lilith-Rei - Shinji hears laughing voices and sees countless spirit-Reis flowing towards a red core

Shinji:
(gasp)Ayanami... Rei?

(Inside Shinji's mind - Flashing psychological scenes)
Random voices (Asuka, Misato, etc.):

I hate you. I wouldn't be caught dead with you! Don't get me wrong... Do you really think I could ever like you? You have nothing to do with my life anymore. Get away from me! ... and don't call me anymore! Stubborn bastard... Don't follow me around anymore. Your type makes me sick! I'm sorry... (laughter) We're nothing more than friends. Annoying bastard... Why don't you learn to give up? There's no way I'd ever go back to you. I HATE YOU! Go away! (laughter) It'd be better if you'd never been born. Dammit, get away from me! I hate you! You're a pain in the [bum]! (laughter)

(Translator's Note: The script printed in the Newtype filmbook differs slightly from the spoken lines as follows:
I hate you. I could never like you. Goodbye, and don't call me anymore! Stubborn bastard... I have no intention of going back to you. I'm sorry, but there's no way we could ever make up now. Idiot - I was only faking it (orgasm). Did you really think that? Honestly, take a good look at who/what you are. We're nothing more than friends. It'd be better if you'd never been born! Bye-bye - and while you at it why don't you just go and die? I wish you weren't here. Who is this child? I don't know this child. It makes no difference whether you are here or not. To put it bluntly, you're a nuisance, and meddlesome to boot. Don't follow me around anymore. It's no good, let's break up. To be honest, you don't just make me uncomfortable -- I hate your type the worst of all. Don't get me wrong... who would ever be with you. Go away! You have nothing to do with my life anymore. I HATE YOU! I don't need you!)

which sounds like everyone shouting at everyone else at once.

Why are they all saying those things to Shinji?

Shin-seiki

May 2nd, 2006, 09:06 AM

Why are they all saying those things to Shinji?
Butthead:
"Cuz he's a loser, huh, huh..."
Beavis:
"Yeah, he'll never score, heh, heh..."

Bobert376

May 2nd, 2006, 09:24 AM

I was looking for a serious answer.

Mr. Tines

May 2nd, 2006, 11:16 AM

Why are they all saying those things to Shinji?

They're not saying them to Shinji, the individual. "All the minds become one mind", remember. This is everyone ranting at the people they know, and everyone else is caught in the crossfire. This is Sartre's "l'enfer c'est les autres."

Bobert376

May 2nd, 2006, 11:47 AM

Oh...

so thats what complementation would have been like? Static 24/7?

Looks like Shinji made the right choice

Another question though

I would assume the EVA's except for Unit 01 are basically "test tube babies"

What I don't understand..if they are copies of ADAM...then why do they all have different eye patterns? Hell, in the case of MP EVA's, they don't even have the same structure above the neck

What I guess I don't get is...what do they use to biologically create EVA embryos?

How can an EVA be born as a human without a soul? Angels are ADAM's children right, but even they were capable of movement on their own.

I don't know if Angel's have "souls", but they weren't simply fleshy bodies that had all the accomodations for movement but lacked SOMETHING to do so

Unless we are saying EVAs literally have their souls somehow ripped out.

Basically what I'm saying is...EVAs have brains, etc...so...with this...why do they NEED a soul in the first place? I just don't understand how they can be made without being capable of free thought, etc.

Even the Angels have that.

BigBet

May 2nd, 2006, 10:52 PM

so thats what complementation would have been like? Static 24/7?
No... thats what the first phase of complementation is like - Everyone being complemented comes to know all of the others thoughts - the "Get to know each other" phase. If enough time passes, all of the personas would become fused into a single entity - think about it : you know all of a person's memories, and u can "hear" all of vis thoughts. In fact, you can't even distinguish them from your own. With enough time, you and ve become the same person.

I would assume the EVA's except for Unit 01 are basically "test tube babies"

What I don't understand..if they are copies of ADAM...then why do they all have different eye patterns?
<snip>
What I guess I don't get is...what do they use to biologically create EVA embryos?

I am guessing this has something to with the "shape-change" ability of Adam's offspring. Perhaps NERV has managed to 'induce' changes in the Eva's self-image. Then again... Evas dont intrinsically have souls... so they should have no self-image - which probably allows their "creators" to manipulate their form.

Remember, the embryo of Adam that Kaji brings to Gendo is labelled as "SAMPLE A-01". NERV probably had access to other samples of Adam, presumably supplied by SEELE, and the EVAs were cultivated(?) from them.

LuigiHann

May 2nd, 2006, 11:06 PM

I always wondered about that. What, if anything, makes that sample A-01 the "real" Adam if it, like the evas, was just a clone thing?

BigBet

May 2nd, 2006, 11:13 PM

IIRC, the NGE2 CI mentions that Adam was 'blown up' as a result of Second Impact. So, Adam probably ejected most of its body mass all over the Antarctic - leaving behind just its er... core(?) to survive, and reverting to a simpler embryo-like form. Sample A-01 is the only "living" part of Adam left - the rest of it is just meat.

The Kaji-Gendo conversation, ends with Gendo referring to it as Adam, The First Human - not just as SomeClone.

Reichu

May 3rd, 2006, 12:58 AM

Adam blowing up is right in the anime (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5702329&postcount=17). And see also here (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5662167&postcount=7) for more stuff on the explosion and the A-01 sample.

Speaking of this "sample" stuff, the mysterioso episode #07 exchange on the shuttle:

MAN:
The revised budget for the sample collection passed quite easily, didn't it?

IKARI:
The Committee's main concern is for their own survival.
They aren't stingy when their own lives are at stake.

MAN:
After all, the basis of their argument was that no more Angels would appear.
Oh, I have one more piece of good news. All members of the UN except the U.s.
have approved the budget for Eva Unit 06.
Well, it's probably just a matter of time
for the U.s. as well. That country is allergic to unemployment, after all.

IKARI:
And what about your country?

MAN (OFF):
We will participate beginning with the construction of Unit 08.
The plans for the second installation project are still viable.
However, there is the problem of not yet having found a pilot.

IKARI:
The Angels have appeared once again. We have no choice but to defeat them.

MAN:
We don't want another Second Impact either.

Hmm.

What I don't understand..if they are copies of ADAM...then why do they all have different eye patterns? Hell, in the case of MP EVA's, they don't even have the same structure above the neck

The MP Evas also have a different body build (smaller in the shoulders, wider in the hips) than the prior Evas.

The word "copy" seems to be used in a different sense that we'd normally think of. They're clearly not copies in a literal sense; they're modified from the original, but they're still based off her and are intended to emulate her power.* The ryousanki are the most deviant from the original, physically. EVA-02 represents some "artistic engineering", what with the bizarre blood composition, blue-grey skin, and four eyes. EVA-00, EVA-01, and EVA-03 are all known to have dark brown skin, which is in sharp contrast to the pale complexion that Adam presumably had; and, interestingly, the Evas' eyes go white in "intense mode", whereas both Adam's and Lilith's go black.

How can an EVA be born as a human without a soul? Angels are ADAM's children right, but even they were capable of movement on their own. <snip>

Members of the Adam-type humanity don't seem to be born with souls; they're received after birth. The Apostles apparently got theirs on the day of Second Impact. During the frenzied moments just prior:

Woman D "Begin thermal dampening treatment as soon as the Doors of Guf open."

What the hell are Doors of Guf? In EoE, at least, they're the name given to the giant, vulval slits on Lilith's palms:

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C316A_d_mid.jpg

...and are described by Fuyutsuki as the doors to "the world's beginning and end". Later, we see souls being drawn into them:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/Souls/m26_C372.jpg

(Although a lot are being drawn into the Black Moon, as well. Ooo, mysteries.) These "Doors of Guf" apparently lead to a "Chamber of Guf", a term gratuitously borrowed from Judaism that refers to wherever souls originally come from. Since what's happening here is basically a reversal of life's origins, with physical bodies reverting to LCL and so on, it seems reasonable to guess that these Doors of Guf can not only serve as in-doors (as they are here), but out-doors as well.

That is to say, the reference to them shortly before 2I is probably anticipating Adam opening up her own "Doors" and releasing souls for her children -- "fertilizing" her eggs with spiritual essence kind of like, er, those fish doing their whole spawning thing.

Unless we are saying EVAs literally have their souls somehow ripped out.

If Adam's children aren't born with souls and need to get souls from her, it seems to follow that Evas wouldn't start off with them by default, either. (One possible explanation, anyway.)

Basically what I'm saying is...EVAs have brains, etc...so...with this...why do they NEED a soul in the first place?

For one thing, you can't generate an A.T. Field without a soul.

* For the only comparison I have offhand, "copy" was also used in 'Final Fantasy VII' to describe attempts to create a supersoldier who would equal this Sephiroth dude, by pumping ordinary soldiers full of the same alien cells that they'd loaded Sephi with, and stuff. "Sephiroth copies". Don't ask me. These are the Japanese we're talking about.

Magami No ER

May 4th, 2006, 01:52 PM

EVA-02 represents some "artistic engineering", what with the bizarre blood composition, blue-grey skin, and four eyes.
With red fluids in her organs, I've freeze-framed that scene enough. ^^;

EVA-00, EVA-01, and EVA-03 are all known to have dark brown skin, which is in sharp contrast to the pale complexion that Adam presumably had; and, interestingly, the Evas' eyes go white in "intense mode", whereas both Adam's and Lilith's go black.
Inverts. :P

What the hell are Doors of Guf? In EoE, at least, they're the name given to the giant, vulval slits on Lilith's palms:

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C316A_d_mid.jpg

...and are described by Fuyutsuki as the doors to "the world's beginning and end". Later, we see souls being drawn into them:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/Souls/m26_C372.jpg

(Although a lot are being drawn into the Black Moon, as well. Ooo, mysteries.)
I for a while now have been playing with nearly baseless guess of those(going into the Black Moon) would be for all other organisms on Earth, and the humans' souls would go into GNR. Why? well, she'd be more of an Ark for humans and humans alone, realizing the "Human" part of the title of the instrumentality project. Would Seele want the "greatness of humanity" to be merged into a single entity with all other creatures?....Doesn't have much to offer, but I might as well post my thoughts on the mysetries, I haven't in a while...
Or another old idea that I had was that the Black Moon Souls were of those who had already died, and the GNR souls But this makes no sense because the ratio of the past dead organisms to the splat-a-ded ones would need to be reveresed...and then some. But as you said, we just don't know where souls go in NGE, when the body dies.^^;
But the fact remians, something that makes those souls different from what we see entering GNR and the moon...we aren't seeing some souls go in there for no reason. They certainly do return in a rather....symbolic way. ;)

Bernard_Monsha

May 4th, 2006, 03:11 PM

merged this one with another theory thread floating around

Matsu'o Tsurayaba

May 4th, 2006, 06:08 PM

I once heard that the black orb in which the souls swirl around is the infinite blackness that has haunted man ever since his first thoughts.There was a refrence to this when Misato spoke with Ritsuko during the last episode of Evangelion.

Also,i heard that LCL is not the "blood" of the Evas.But the true form of a soul or the form of which life began.The primordial soup in which life began,refrences to this was made when Shinji himself turned into LCL.

Also,keeping EoE out of this.When Kwarou infiltrated Terminal Dogma with Eva 02.He noticed that "Adam" was actually Lillith,and another angel was seen.Rei appeared,Kwarou said that he understood and looked to Rei.What did this mean?Was Rei not clones of Yui?

Bobert376

May 4th, 2006, 06:31 PM

Well, in a way

Rei is an Angel

ElderEva

May 5th, 2006, 06:59 AM

Yes Rei is basically the lilum form of the SoL Lilith and thus an incarnation of the 2nd angel.

Kwarou is kinda like that for Adam, and we know he is the 15th angel outright.

Thats actually what I thought he was saying to Rei when he said "we are the same".

Theory: I always wondered what he "understood" when he saw Lillith, maybe he knew Rei was an angel like him but also realized that she was not of Adam. After seeing Lillith he understood that Rei "was" Lillith. She of course could neutralize his AT field, which in turn would break his hold of Eva-2 and allow shinji to grab him.

Reichu

May 5th, 2006, 07:27 AM

Also,keeping EoE out of this.When Kwarou infiltrated Terminal Dogma with Eva 02.He noticed that "Adam" was actually Lillith,and another angel was seen.Rei appeared,Kwarou said that he understood and looked to Rei.What did this mean?Was Rei not clones of Yui?

Rei contains the soul of Adam's counterpart, Lilith: "You're just like me. We've both ended up in bodies with the form of the Lilim while we live on this planet." And Kaworu actually didn't look at Rei for a little while -- that was after EVA-01 grabbed him.

Kwarou is kinda like that for Adam, and we know he is the 15th angel outright.

17th, actually.

Theory: I always wondered what he "understood" when he saw Lillith, maybe he knew Rei was an angel like him but also realized that she was not of Adam. After seeing Lillith he understood that Rei "was" Lillith.

The interchange at the top of the escalator seems to indicate that Kaworu knew who Rei was from the beginning.

She of course could neutralize his AT field, which in turn would break his hold of Eva-2 and allow shinji to grab him.

:w00t: For some reason, I'd never been able to link Rei's intrusion up with anything. :blush: I love you.

But, why does Kaworu do the uber-huge ATF deployment thing in the first place...?

In any case, the bit about Rei being able to overcome Kaworu's ATF no sweat seems to hold big implications for the Duel of the Seeds. (In fact, that entire sequence seems like it damn well might -- an idea I've been playing around with for a while.)

ElderEva

May 5th, 2006, 08:04 AM

Well, I kinda thought her being there was a surprise to him. He was concentrating on controlling Eva-2 and finding "Adam". When the Nerv staff registered another angel (Rei) he "felt" her AT field neutralizing his own and then looked up to see what it was (as if to say "how did he grab me - look up at Rei- oh she did it").

I havent read Dual of the Seeds, if you could please link it, I would much appreciate it.

From the little I have gathered about the duel, it does seem to have some parrellels.

(Adam surprized by Lillith and gets stabbed by the lance = Lillith wins birthrights)

(Kaworu surprized by Rie and gets destroyed by Eva-1 = Lilums win Instrumentality rights)

Shin-seiki

May 5th, 2006, 08:16 AM

I havent read Dual of the Seeds, if you could please link it, I would much appreciate it.Duel of the Seeds is just a short-hand way of referencing the notion that Lilth and Adam fought it out way back when. I originally proposed it about three years ago, back when we first noticed that, in the Test-type OP, Adam was discovered with the Spear sticking out of him
http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=91401&page=5&pp=15
(Scroll down a bit to around post #69 on down...

Ornette

May 5th, 2006, 11:15 AM

She of course could neutralize his AT field, which in turn would break his hold of Eva-2 and allow shinji to grab him.
yeah,
Eva-01 and Eva-02 duking it out (http://buzzy.tesuji.org/images/eva01-eva02_fight.jpg)
Suddenly!
Everything gets blurry and shakes (http://buzzy.tesuji.org/images/eva01-eva02_fight_atfield.jpg)
Immediately after that, Shinji screams "What's that?" and the bridge says it's another AT field.

Matsu'o Tsurayaba

May 5th, 2006, 04:13 PM

What is a Absolute Terror Field exactly?
You can see it on the anime,but i dont think details really went into explaining what it is..or how it works exactly.

Mr. Tines

May 5th, 2006, 11:48 PM

What is a Absolute Terror Field exactly?

Like pretty much everything else, we have to deal with inferences, rather than being presented with AWAK*-style infodumps. The closest to one of those is

Shinji: A.T. Field!

Kaoru: Yes. You Lilims call it so.
The holy region that must not be invaded by anyone.
The light of mind.
You, Lilims, are aware of that.
Aware that the A.T. Field is the wall of mind that everyone has.

*From bad SF - characters launching forth with "As We All Know ... #insert <infodump>." in lieu of dialogue.

BigBet

May 6th, 2006, 04:11 AM

The light of mind.

Umm... My subtitles say "The light of the soul". But since he's saying 'Kokoro', I guess it can be interpreted as 'mind'?
As far as I have understood, the Japanese concept of 'Kokoro' can best be translated as 'That which gives us Free Will' - which could be either soul or mind in the western tradition. Am I right?

Mr. Tines

May 6th, 2006, 06:47 AM

As always, I'm quoting the Literal Translation Project at http://plaza.harmonix.ne.jp/~onizuka/literal/evangelion.html so it's their choice of idiom, not mine. Those more fluent in Nihongo might be able to spread some light on the matter.

Reichu

May 6th, 2006, 03:01 PM

I really need to get out those Platinum transcripts that are idling around on my HD. The translation is, as a general rule, much better than the LTP. Hmm... Would those be considered omake?

Since tamashii, which represents a very definite concept in NGE (little red dots), is already squatting on the English word "soul", translating kokoro as "soul" just makes things confusing, IMO. I find it preferable to stick to "heart" and "mind", myself, just for purposes of precision. That way, people who aren't familiar with the original wording don't have to guess which version of "soul" is being talked about.

Matsu'o Tsurayaba

May 10th, 2006, 05:37 PM

With the Dummy Plug and mass produced units of Eva 8-12 if i remember correctly,were there plans for more Children by SEELE?

CanonRAP

May 10th, 2006, 08:50 PM

With the Dummy Plug and mass produced units of Eva 8-12 if i remember correctly,were there plans for more Children by SEELE?

Seele doesn't pick the Children, Nerv (well, technically, Marduk) does. And no, I don't think Nerv had any more plans for more Children, seeing as there doesn't seem to be any Evas planned after 16 (13 built + 3 never built).

Ornette

May 10th, 2006, 10:35 PM

Didn't Seele "pick" Nagisa?

LuigiHann

May 10th, 2006, 11:49 PM

The Marduk Institute is a front, but it's comprised of members from both Nerv and Seele. probably mostly Seele, though, considering that most of Nerv is kept in the dark about it. Plus, I think the children may have to have been "picked" a lot earlier than the show suggests, considering how the system works....

Ornette

May 11th, 2006, 01:07 AM

CanonRAP

May 11th, 2006, 01:06 PM

NGE2 CI, Section 7. Marduk Institute (http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=188682#post5562988) doesn't mention Seele, but that's doesn't necessarily mean Seele doesn't have an affect in the selection. I just got the feeling that Kaworu was selected by Seele themselves, since even the in-the-know people from Nerv didn't know the details, they just knew Seele was sending them the 5th.

IMO, Seele didn't actually 'send' Tabris (need to check on that), seeing as ve would've gone there eventually. Ve more or less cooperated.

Plus, I think the children may have to have been "picked" a lot earlier than the show suggests, considering how the system works....

The Children are probably 'picked' before they were even concieved...

...it's comprised of members from both Nerv and Seele. probably mostly Seele, though

Doesn't the NGE2 file say:

...all dummies; in essence, the organization does not exist. Reports filed from the Marduk Institute to Nerv are, in truth, being prepared within Nerv itself.

The selection of candidates by the Marduk Institute is considered a necessary ruse. This is so that it is not outwardly apparent that Gendo is choosing candidates at his own discretion.

That seems to suggest that Gendo (?Ritsuko?) is choosing the Children. Marduk is pretty much nonexistent. If who is supposed to be chosen is actually written in SDSS, then I guess Seele runs the show and tells Nerv who to pick.

LuigiHann

May 11th, 2006, 02:22 PM

Something like that. I was thinking of the scene where Kaji sees the list of "Members" of the Marduk institute, Gendo and Keel's names are both on it. I know it's just a front, but yeah.

Matsu'o Tsurayaba

June 3rd, 2006, 05:47 PM

I was watching End Of Evangelion again,and it got me to wonder.WHAT is a Evangelion exactly.During the Anime series there are countless mentions that it was made in the image of Adam.

There was not much in depth theories more than that,but there have been times when the Eva`s hands have been fried,and beneath the armor are fingers that look like a normal person`s.What is this?

A pilot syncs with its Eva,so does the pilot become a part of the Eva?Its also been said that a Eva is techno-organic,but does anyone know the exact details for this?

Hekym

June 3rd, 2006, 06:02 PM

CanonRAP

June 3rd, 2006, 08:38 PM

There was not much in depth theories more than that,but there have been times when the Eva`s hands have been fried,and beneath the armor are fingers that look like a normal person`s.What is this?

Because they're basically giant humans...more specifically, females.

A pilot syncs with its Eva,so does the pilot become a part of the Eva?Its also been said that a Eva is techno-organic,but does anyone know the exact details for this?

IIRC, synchronising with an Eva is basically forming a neural connection with the Eva herself; in Ep1, Ritsuko even explains to Shinji that all he needs to do is "think about walking, and the Eva will move." Basically, the pilots imagine what they want to do (those control sticks/levers help them if they want to be 'physical') and the Eva performs them.

Of course, Yui-sama also likes to move around on her own...

why does everyone get so pissed off when Ritsuko destroys the Reis? Is it not a good thing? Makes Rei 3 more... human...mortal, I suppose. And takes out the dummy system, I gather. An action I wholly support. Ritsuko seems to be atoning, despite the nonsense that comes out of her mouth about Gendo. She doesn't seem like a psycho...

No, Gendo is horrible :P .

Mostly, people get pissed at Ritsuko for destroys the dummies because, regardless of whether they have souls or not, they still look like people - especially like a character we know very well and just recently died - and seeing them slowly collapse into bloody limbs is not fun for them.

People react different to this scene. I was mildly annoyed at Rit-chan for doing that...but then again, I'm the kind of guy that thinks all so-called 'horror' movies these days are boring.

Reichu

June 4th, 2006, 01:01 AM

IIRC, synchronising with an Eva is basically forming a neural connection with the Eva herself; in Ep1, Ritsuko even explains to Shinji that all he needs to do is "think about walking, and the Eva will move." Basically, the pilots imagine what they want to do (those control sticks/levers help them if they want to be 'physical') and the Eva performs them.

The ventral end of the plug also goes into the core (ewwww) and the pilot links up on a metabiological level. The neurological connection isn't even possible without the spiritual one.

Of course, Yui-sama also likes to move around on her own...

There are Zero's temper tantrums and the interesting bit with Kyoko in #25', as well.

No, Gendo is horrible :P .

Leave the spanking to Yui. ;)

Mostly, people get pissed at Ritsuko for destroys the dummies because, regardless of whether they have souls or not, they still look like people - especially like a character we know very well and just recently died - and seeing them slowly collapse into bloody limbs is not fun for them.

I'm glad she did it. 'Good riddance.' The contents of the Reiquarium always bring to mind the sentiment (in the words of Muldoon from JP), "They should all be destroyed." And the Rei-tachi all seemed quite pleased with Ritsuko's decision, anyway.

Jabberwok

June 4th, 2006, 06:40 AM

And the Rei-tachi all seemed quite pleased with Ritsuko's decision, anyway.
I'm going to attribute this to distrudo release. Destrudo is an internally generated metabilogical process in NGE, isn't it?

Up to this point in the series hasn't Rei been having some emo moments, musing about "returning to nothing", and probably listening to some LP on her off time :P? I have a hunch that Rei's medication (which she either never takes or always gets conveniently refilled) has antidepressive/anti-destrudo properties to it and that her little tank baths may be part of that too. If Rei needs constant maintenance to keep her from pulling an Asuka, as it were, I'd imagine the clones might need the same treatment.

Their reaction when the lights in the tank are turned on too... I always got the impression they looked unnaturally giddy swimming in their narcoticly-enriched tank of blood.

In short, I think Ritsuko doesn't so much as destroy them as allow them to destroy themselves.

A pilot syncs with its Eva,so does the pilot become a part of the Eva?
...synchronising with an Eva is basically forming a neural connection with the Eva herself...
The ventral end of the plug also goes into the core...and the pilot links up on a metabiological level.

I cut this pic out of the Newtype Artbook and rotated it a bit, though I don't think it helps.
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5140/newtypepluginsertion7jq.th.jpg (http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newtypepluginsertion7jq.jpg )
Plug defintely slipping, oh so sensually, into the core. I'm sure it has something to do with the plug depth settings from the harmonics tests they always babble about ("Lower the plug depth another 0.3" or somesuch).

I like to think of synch-ratio and plug-depth, or whatever, as an inverse proportion, with synch being a raw measurement and the core+plug action as ATF blurring.

When the two souls are distant and not in synch, the ratio is low and you get something like Asuka in Ep:22-24. 10% synch is like some magical cutoff where only the simplest sensory and motor control data can flow between souls.

As the souls open up to and approach one another, synch rises with more and more difficulty (like opposing magnets) until, at 100%, data flows at a 1:1 rate, and now balls are touching (those little red soul marbles... touching...).

Anyways if you force synch past 100% the souls have to begin to merge/overlap and the ATFs begin to blurr. How this effects combat performance I can only guess, but presumably, once you hit somewhere around 400% (which could be something like 75% overlap) you get t4ng3d and the pilot's soul is now in the core.

That mental toxicity stuff might be referring to this blurring, but only if you resist it maybe. Makes me think of the contacts experiments, though. Yui suits up passes the 1:1 threshold and is now overlapping with a blank slate. She goes all out and releases her soul into the core. Kyoko starts out the same; for some reason starts resisting past 100%; mental toxicity kicks in; and when she finally tears away, her soul becomes fragmented, some being left behind and leaving the rest of her incomplete (kind of like Rei?) but more... toxic.

I don't know. Just some random jabberwocky.

Shin-seiki

June 4th, 2006, 06:46 AM

And pehaps the merging/overlap of souls entails a merging/overlap of ATFs, hence the physical sharing of injuries (e.g. Asuka's eye and arm).

CanonRAP

June 4th, 2006, 07:47 AM

And pehaps the merging/overlap of souls entails a merging/overlap of ATFs, hence the physical sharing of injuries (e.g. Asuka's eye and arm).

BTW, I don't know how many people noticed it, but during that inside-the-plug twitching scene (after Kyoko-sama is 'opened up', so to speak), there also were patches of dark red all over her body. I don't know if this is the dark lighting playing on her plug suit, but I still got the feeling that Asuka physically felt being torn apart in that scene.

I'll try to take a still or two.

Hekym

June 4th, 2006, 08:12 AM

And pehaps the merging/overlap of souls entails a merging/overlap of ATFs, hence the physical sharing of injuries (e.g. Asuka's eye and arm).

As far as the ppresence of nerve connnections go, it just seemed like the Eva became an extension of the pilots' physical body- the smaller human body only being a vessel anyway. So at a 400% sync ratio, the human soul transfers into the Eva completely. And we know what happens when a soul is freed from a body- sploot.

As far as iinjuries, aren't they just mirror effects from the pilot's use of the larger body?

Yes, since the reis had no soul and no AT fields, Ritsuko could probably just stop the release of a few developmental chemicals..since the material they were built of and sustained through was LCL , they just dissolved back. Maybe LCL has some dissolving qualities as well.

Jabberwok

June 4th, 2006, 08:21 AM

...physical sharing of injuries...
One thing that bugs me when people address this, and it comes up in fanfic's all the time, is the that there seems to be some mystical property of the Lances allow them to damage the pilots as well as their Eva's. I don't know why exactly, but it just doesn't feel right.

I had something planned for later that basically theorizes certain injuries the Children recieve while piloting are in fact imagined; we just get to see what they think is happening to their bodies. I thought it up mostly to smooth out stuff I thought were inconsistencies. I don't have any screens made up yet, but I feel the need to throw it down right now.

Oh, up until EoE, grievous injuries like limb dismemberment and brain-case penetration have to be ignored for artistic restraint (and to make the examples fit this stupid theory).

Here goes...
=Ep:02 injuries are a bad example because of his low synch and 'cause it's only the second episode (don't want to scare of the kids just yet).
=Ep:18- Rei's left arm- restraint.
=Ep:18- Shinji's neck looks pretty mangled when he's being choked, how can he still be talking? Why does he show no bruising/lingering effects afterwards.
=Ep:19- Asuka's arms and Rei's face- restraint.
=Ep:19- Shinji's left arm- restraint.

(sidetrack-- I like how Shinji's first injuries parallel Asuka's last: first battle/last battle, second episode/second from the last episode, right eye/left eye, left arm/right arm)

Anyways, here's the entree of the theory...
=Ep:23- Rei's tentacle encounter. Oh come on. I'd have to buy either that Rei has somehow, inexplicably upped her synch-rate (like in my dumb theory) or that Armisael has the same magic powers that the Lance does at fuxxoring pilots (like from the other dumb theory).
=Ep:23- Shinji's hand. I would definitly expect a bandage around this if there were infact tiny Reis sprouting from his flesh. At least Shinji's synch is notably higher at this time, not that it makes it much more credible.

And here's the desert...
=Ep:25'- Asuka, 'nuf said. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that all of the following injuries hurt like a sonuva*****, but come on...
--(1)- Left eye. I'm no doctor, but I find it hard to believe that (a) that much blood can 'Old Faithful' out of an eye cavity like that and not kill you instantly or (b),even though we cant see the back of her head very well, that a 100m long spear can cleanly penetrate both the front and back of your skull and also not kill you instantly. Oh and I doubt blood can flow like that underwater (under-LCL, whatever). And I don't think the human body cant hold that much blood (this ignores those cute Laws of Anime). And I don't think just holding your hand over an injury like that would stop the afore mentioned fountain.
--(2)- Harpy Buffet. Nothing more than severe cramps from this one? Seriously.
--(3)- Right arm. We don't know how long she survives, if at all, after this, and while we prolly have some more artistic licence here, I would expect to see a little more internal structure if my arm were neatly sliced in twain (we do get to see a good shot of 02's arm after the fact, though, if that matters).
After all of these and you only need a few rolls of gauze to patch you up? I get the visual tie-in to Rei's wounds from Ep:01, but I still don't buy it. (the 'wtf did that gauze come from' is for another day)
=Ep:26'- Shinji's stigmata. What just some surface bruising? I doubt he's in much control here or synched very well, but still, I'd expect a little more.

I didn't mean to say this much; I think I just needed to vent a little. At what? I have no idea.

I accept full responsibility for any and all flames I get about this as I am sure others have been roasted alive for saying such nonsense before. No hard feelings, chaps.

CanonRAP

June 4th, 2006, 08:47 AM

=Ep:23- Rei's tentacle encounter. Oh come on. I'd have to buy either that Rei has somehow, inexplicably upped her synch-rate (like in my dumb theory) or that Armisael has the same magic powers that the Lance does at fuxxoring pilots (like from the other dumb theory).

Armisael's 'power' is basically infecting/bonding with another being (and according to the manga, it can also do a lot more than that; that bit about the dual saw still interests me). The manga is also more explicit in this matter, as Armi splits into multiple strands, and one of them heads straight for the back plug-region. Thus, I believe that Armi was, at the time, 'fondling' both Zerogouki and Rei.

I suppose I can also link this to Arael; she finds interest first in Kyoko-sama (who does her thanatos-twitching thingie) then goes deeper and explores/dissects Asuka's mind.

=Ep:23- Shinji's hand. I would definitly expect a bandage around this if there were infact tiny Reis sprouting from his flesh. At least Shinji's synch is notably higher at this time, not that it makes it much more credible.

Weren't the tiny, blobby Rei-tachi just part of Armi's 'infection'? I'd always thought they would go away after the Apostle was gone.

The same thing happens to Touji, though I can't say whether this helps my answer or disproves it.

=Ep:25'- Asuka, 'nuf said. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that all of the following injuries hurt like a sonuva*****, but come on...
--(1)- Left eye. I'm no doctor, but I find it hard to believe that (a) that much blood can 'Old Faithful' out of an eye cavity like that and not kill you instantly or (b),even though we cant see the back of her head very well, that a 100m long spear can cleanly penetrate both the front and back of your skull and also not kill you instantly.

Well, they have to take some artistic license for the sake of giving off a stronger meaning (see "Aerosol-powered Blood"). Now, remember when the Spear pierced right through Kyoko-sama's left eyes? Asuka felt that quite hard and started bleeding like crazy. Then afterwards, Kyoko is completely ripped open. Asuka also felt some measure of that (clutching at body, blood, etc.) but she also didn't die from that either.

The point is, I think we just have to accept that Asuka is not at top sync at that point (at least, not at the mythical 400%) and simply felt it 'less' (or maybe Kyoko even 'ejected' her at the last moment in an effort to protect her...). And to paraphrase someone else:

"Sure, it's something to them, but it's just another day on the job for an Eva."

Oh and I doubt blood can flow like that underwater (under-LCL, whatever). And I don't think the human body cant hold that much blood (this ignores those cute Laws of Anime). And I don't think just holding your hand over an injury like that would stop the afore mentioned fountain.

Well, like I said. Artistic license ^_^ . It's not like the series conforms entirely to the rules of 'reality' in any way.

--(2)- Hail of Lances. Nothing more than severe cramps from this one? Seriously.

Not sure I understand...you mean on the beach scene?

--(3)- Right arm. We don't know how long she survives, if at all, after this, and while we prolly have some more artistic licence here, I would expect to see a little more internal structure if my arm were neatly sliced in twain (we do get to see a good shot of 02's arm after the fact, though, if that matters). After all of these and you only need a few rolls of gauze to patch you up?

I'd assume you're talking about post-3I here...but since Asuka was basically 're-formed' from LCL, I would expect her body to be fine; the bandages are just something her own mind needs, maybe to make the connection that she has been 'healed'. It also gives that feeling to the audience, or at least to me.

(the 'wtf did that gauze come from' is for another day)

I believe this came up in an earlier thread...I'll just leave someone else who has been here longer to find the necessary link :P

=Ep:26'- Shinji's stigmata. What just some surface bruising? I doubt he's in much control here or synched very well, but still, I'd expect a little more.

He isn't in control at all. He's just along for the ride. Again, I suppose that Yui-sama's is 'excluding' Shinji (again) here, just keeping him at bay with minimal interaction, to keep him from serious harm.

Well, she lets him see the crazy $h1t happen outside...but that's something else :P

I didn't mean to say this much; I think I just needed to vent a little. At what? I have no idea.

Oh, it's quite all right ;)

Jabberwok

June 4th, 2006, 08:57 AM

Oh snap. When I said "Hail of Lances", I meant "Harpy Buffet". Don't know how I screwed that up. I'll go back and edit to avoid further confusion.

CanonRAP

June 4th, 2006, 09:34 AM

--(2)- Harpy Buffet. Nothing more than severe cramps from this one? Seriously.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j77/CanonRAP/b1652436.jpg

The stuff on the legs are the 'curves', I know, but the circled areas...I dunno, looks supisiciously like blood to me...

Jabberwok

June 4th, 2006, 10:45 AM

I guess I don't see the same signs you do. On her back I see creases in her suit as she writhes in pain. Unfortunately I can't see her face very well. I would actually say that the leg curves you discounted look more like blood splatter than shadow, and they would match up to the position Asuka was in immediately after she receives her eye injury. Either way the damage to Unit02 seems to be "contained" to her front. The back doesn't appear to get much attention.

I can only counter the feast wounds with this...
http://img348.imageshack.us/img348/9919/004131illkillyou0mm.th.jpg (http://img348.imageshack.us/my.php?image=004131illkillyou0mm.jpg)
...in which I don't see any damage to her abdomen or the expected blood on her right hand.

I guess what I was getting at with all of this was that I was trying to broaden my definition of artistic license. The end conclusion being that what we, as the audience, take for real inside the plugs is, in fact, not. I think we are seeing what the Children are feeling. Asuka feels like her eye was just gouged out? then let's show what that feels like. Asuka feels like her arm has been cleaved lengthwise by a band-saw? show it. Artistic license ftw.

Maybe there's some Matrix-style "your mind makes it real" stuff going on here. I don't know.

It helps me iron out other creases too, like how is Asuka's hair flowing all over the place? Yeah, there's liquid in there, but when she's charging ahead at the last two Harpies, her hair makes it look like she's in a wind tunnel. I doubt the LCL purification system kicked into overdrive just to give her that windswept look. But it does give a sense of epic movement to the scene. She imagines the blood spilling from her eye just as she imagines the wind rushing through her hair. Again, artistic license to the rescue.

I wandered into this mode of thought after I saw a post mentioning a scene of Shinji's plug ejecting, but which was cut out of EoE for whatever reason. That helped answer the question of where Shinji's clothes and Misato's cross came from if they were still up in Unit01. That then reminded me of the cut scene of Asuka kicking over a grave marker, which then led me to her bandages and her own plugsuit. Somehow that led me back further and I came up with this madness.

I think I'll drop this as there just isn't enough good evidence for it (either way, in my opinion ;)).

In other news, this...
http://img319.imageshack.us/img319/4899/004108unit02readout1ys.th.jpg (http://img319.imageshack.us/my.php?image=004108unit02readout1ys.jpg)
...came out of my rewatching. The relevant portion would be the nervous column on the right and the capsule that is labeld 'entry plug'. Seemed relevant to what I had said back when I was making sense.

And to change the subject even further... speaking of "unresolved elements", has anyone ever figured out how this is happening?...
http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/5186/00400toujisdream4yr.th.jpg (http://img343.imageshack.us/my.php?image=00400toujisdream4yr.jpg)
If you can't tell, it's from Ep:19 and it's Touji somehow in Shinji's train-car dream world, listening to Shinji talk with someone who may or may not be Rei. Theories anyone?

[edited for spelling and slight clarification]

Reichu

June 4th, 2006, 11:27 AM

@Jabberwock: At one point, I was seriously considering the "all in the pilot's mind" 'explanation', too -- until someone mentioned A.T. Field Voodoo, and then I was all like, "Oh." Generally speaking, the rule is, "Take everything at face value unless given adequate reason to do otherwise". The show has the bizarro elements of metaphysical biology, A.T. Fields, and synchronizing with a soul (a prerequisite for gaining neurological control over a giant meatsack!) already in place -- unless you take all of those factors into consideration, you're calling a preemptive defeat, as it were.

Just one thing at the moment: Actual "synchronization" appears to need, from what I can tell, technological support via entry plug, and, without it, this strange Eva-->pilot transferral (in terms of physical effects manifesting) cannot occur. Rather than the Spears having some kind of magical damage-inducing property, the reason why the Ravaging doesn't affect Asuka physically is because the entry plug isn't powered at the time. Once Kyoko starts running on soul juice (which powers up even the cybernetic components, making the entry plug "come online" again), Asuka is once again privy to damage.

Why is the pain from Kyoko's gutting shared? I guess Mama is still holding her baby's hand throughout the mess. ;)

And to change the subject even further... speaking of "unresolved elements", has anyone ever figured out how this is happening?...

I only started rethinking this one recently. The only possible "crosshair" I have available is the mysterious 'data link' to EVA-01 that's mentioned during Sangouki's startup test, and the recommendation that we dig out thewayneiac's proposal once again.

Ornette

June 4th, 2006, 03:11 PM

(the 'wtf did that gauze come from' is for another day)
http://www.animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3123715&postcount=116 (first appearance of this question AFAIK), this was all part of a discussion concerning whether Shinji and Asuka were tangified.
http://www.animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4904818&postcount=207 reply from wayneiac is post 215
The short of it seems to be that you can come out wearing/carrying whatever image your ego projects. (Did I say that right?)

http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/5186/00400toujisdream4yr.th.jpg
I only started rethinking this one recently. The only possible "crosshair" I have available is the mysterious 'data link' to EVA-01 that's mentioned during Sangouki's startup test, and the recommendation that we dig out thewayneiac's proposal once again.
http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=183255
http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=172759 (starting around post 34, more talk about instrumentality and the train)
where it all started: http://www.animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3467382&postcount=55

millinniummany3

June 4th, 2006, 04:00 PM

why does everyone get so pissed off when Ritsuko destroys the Reis? Is it not a good thing? Makes Rei 3 more... human...mortal, I suppose. And takes out the dummy system, I gather. An action I wholly support. Ritsuko seems to be atoning, despite the nonsense that comes out of her mouth about Gendo. She doesn't seem like a psycho...

Because Rei is the most beloved Eva character, if not the most beloved anime character there ever was, and Ritsuko makes it pretty clear (in the manga even more clear) she wanted to kill her. But maybe it had the opposite effect to Rei. She said how she wanted to die, does she mean to be able to die and not be replaced, to be unique and not just an empty shell that could be replaced? To add to the idea, did Rei in some way see herself as Wolverine and the Dummy System as Weapon X?

Reichu

June 4th, 2006, 04:41 PM

The short of it seems to be that you can come out wearing/carrying whatever image your ego projects. (Did I say that right?)

Yeah, that sounds pretty good to me. I guess there is some kind of voodoo involved that recombines not only the components of the LCL back into the physical form 'recorded' by the soul, but also lets your ATF act as a Replicator for that one, special moment. "This is your chance to make it big! Imagine yourself in your heart wearing lots of really expensive jewelry, and once the economy recovers you can sell it all and be set for life!"

Either that, or you can just emerge with T-shirt, jeans, sneakers, and a cake. Nudists would obviously emerge wearing absolutely nothing at all, and thus take pride in the fact that they utilized the minimal amount of molecule-manipulating voodoo.

http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=183255
http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=172759 (starting around post 34, more talk about instrumentality and the train)
where it all started: http://www.animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3467382&postcount=55

You are a god among geeks. (You should co-conspire with Mr. Tines on that FGC-local ANF thread archive or something.) Hah, this is amusing:

I dunno if I'll warm up to this idea of yours eventually, but at the moment I'm having some problems with the logistics.

And I made a blatantly sarcastic comment in the same post... Oh dear.

I still haven't given this very much thought, but when I watched the scene again (for the first time in a good long while) and finally realized just how utterly weird it really was, fuzzy memories of Wayne's ideas suddenly popped into my head. "Oh crap, maybe the guy was on the right track after all..."

Ornette

June 4th, 2006, 05:33 PM

Either that, or you can just emerge with T-shirt, jeans, sneakers, and a cake.
haha, tis my dream.

Hekym

June 4th, 2006, 05:45 PM

Because Rei is the most beloved Eva character, if not the most beloved anime character there ever was, and Ritsuko makes it pretty clear (in the manga even more clear) she wanted to kill her.

I don't get it... they're just flesh. They're not alive and they don't have souls... I think it's interesting that Ritsuko manages to separate herself from her mother by not crossin the final line and moving to kill the real Rei, or whichever has the soul at the time (question: It's not Yui's soul, because that's in EVA-01, correct? It's a stray soul that got in the empty vessel Gendo wanted to use for Yui, right?). I understand that in the manga, Ritusko stops herself from strangling Rei with a stethoscope...

Ritsuko has more about her than just Gendo/ revenge, which I don't think is the reason she goes on a destruction binge- more likely, she loses the ground for all she's created and destroys it, or tries to, out of a will to correct humanity , but more importantly to change what she's obsessed with seeming to have become. She's a question of ethical science, most notably expressed through juxtaposition with Maya... that whole bit about "It'll get easier wince you get your hands dirty" was pretty blatant. And obviously, Everything from Rei to Instrumentality would be rejected by the larger scientific community... Interesting that Ritusko ultimately rejects this, and Gendo, before her end. Happily enough, she's not her mother, who was completely consumed.

millinniummany3

June 4th, 2006, 06:25 PM

Ornette

June 4th, 2006, 06:40 PM

Ritsuko has more about her than just Gendo/ revenge, which I don't think is the reason she goes on a destruction binge- more likely, she loses the ground for all she's created and destroys it, or tries to, out of a will to correct humanity , but more importantly to change what she's obsessed with seeming to have become. She's a question of ethical science, most notably expressed through juxtaposition with Maya... that whole bit about "It'll get easier wince you get your hands dirty" was pretty blatant. And obviously, Everything from Rei to Instrumentality would be rejected by the larger scientific community... Interesting that Ritusko ultimately rejects this, and Gendo, before her end. Happily enough, she's not her mother, who was completely consumed.

There's a lot of good stuff in these threads:
What Gendou said to Ritsuko: Solved? (seriously) (http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=117875)
and
What REALLY motivated Ritsuko to turn against Gendo in #23 (http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=170703)

BigBet

June 4th, 2006, 06:46 PM

question: It's not Yui's soul, because that's in EVA-01, correct? It's a stray soul that got in the empty vessel Gendo wanted to use for Yui, right?
Rei has Lilith's soul in her. This is quite important to the storyline. You might want to look up some threads about it.

CanonRAP

June 4th, 2006, 07:23 PM

Have you looked at the manga? There's a scene where Ritsuko goes to kill Rei, before stopping herself. Of course, the general opinion of the manga is 'ZOMGWTF THE MANGA IZ TEH sUx0r5 WITH ADDED SCENES LOLZ!1!!11ONE1!11!!ELEVEN1!11!!'

Actually, I consider the manga to be a addition to the series. I usually think of it as 'alternate canon'...everything in the manga might not go with what was stated in the anime, but it is still an interesting read to me...which is one of the reasons why I persuaded my friends to scanlate it.

EDIT:

I don't get it...they're just flesh...

Rei is an intriguing character the first time you watch NGE, and after getting to know her for the last 23 episodes, seeing her (even just meatsacks with the image of her) die again, in slow motion no less, is quite a pain to see.

At least, to many people, it is. Personally, I don't feel the pain as much, at least not so much that I wanted Misato to shoot her.

voodoo

Is that, like, the new Eva-word? Voodoo?

Matsu'o Tsurayaba

June 8th, 2006, 04:48 PM

Watching a episode again.There were refrences made to The Dead Sea Scrolls,upon thinking about this.What was on the scrolls in the first place?It must have warned humanity about the Angels,but other than that,i cant find any information on it.

Misato,Ritsuko and Kaji all said that the Angels are nearly exactly like humans,except they have chosen another form.WHERE did the Angels come from then?In the Anime they just seem to pop up,what`s the origin on the Angels?

Reichu

June 8th, 2006, 08:39 PM

Watching a episode again.There were refrences made to The Dead Sea Scrolls,upon thinking about this.What was on the scrolls in the first place?It must have warned humanity about the Angels,but other than that,i cant find any information on it.

Searching the Eva forum for "scrolls" would probably yield a lot of stuff... (The NGE2 Classified Information thread just got the entry on the Scrolls in, BTW.)

what`s the origin on the Angels?

Adam's uterus. </stock Reichu answer>

Matsu'o Tsurayaba

June 16th, 2006, 07:32 AM

Nearly always when i watch the last few episodes of the anime,i wonder...could Third Impact have been prevented?

Is a AT Field just a boarder that keeps souls appart?What was the First Impact if Second Impact was in the year 2000?

Reichu

June 16th, 2006, 09:39 AM

Nearly always when i watch the last few episodes of the anime,i wonder...could Third Impact have been prevented?
This one is somewhat unresolved. You would think that, in theory, yes...

Is a AT Field just a boarder that keeps souls appart?
Apparently maintains the sense of self (ability to block out others, and thus maintain individuality) and physical form of Lilith-based lifeforms. Unless you're composed of the same type of matter as Lilith or Adam, in which case you can do lots of cool things with your ATF.

A.T. Fields are a complicated subject. Try to search tool is you want MOAR.

What was the First Impact if Second Impact was in the year 2000?

The Black Moon colliding into Earth approximately 4 billion years ago. Search tool for further details. :P

Jabberwok

June 16th, 2006, 10:50 AM

What was the First Impact if Second Impact was in the year 2000?
Some four billion years ago, a rogue planetoid violently collided with a young Proto-Earth. So forceful was the impact, material from the planetoid in addition to that torn from Earth's upper mantle were thrown into orbit, coalescing to form our current moon. This event is known as the First Impact.

The secret truth is that prior to this event Adam and her White Moon had already come to rest on Earth in what is now known as Antarctica. Some time later Lilith and her Black Moon (contained either within or on the surface of said rogue planetoid) joined Adam on this new and freshly scarred world.

...could Third Impact have been prevented?
This event is quite important to the narrative of the story; removing it would have hurt some of the messages of Eva.

Ignoring that debate, the unrealistic and romantic optimist within me wants to say yes. The angry and less-naive pragmatist with me, however, takes my other half out back and beat him unconscious.

The players involved in Third Impact, those controlling it's outcome, are so devoted to their plans that any diversion might have required a plot-device bigger than Über-Rei.

Seele's resources and religious fervor signal their long-term intent. Countless thousands are to allowed to fall to hunger and disease with each Committee Budgetary Meeting. NGE2: Classified Information further states their willingness to burn the world to the ground in pursuit of godhood.

Were Fuyutsuki a better man, he may have been able to convince Gendo, the other power-player, to avert Third Impact. Put in a different way, from a fragmented story of mine where Fuyutsuki was just such a man...
[Warning long, unnecessary dialogue incoming.]

Gendo's breath was forced from him as the giant purple fist clenched his wounded frame. Looking up, he could see his goal, the crucified corpse of Lilith, reflected in the blood-drenched armor plates before him. He lifted his gaze further to the face of the giant that held his fate, the world's fate, in it's hand, a pair of white glowing sockets meeting his own.

"Why?!" a tinny voice shouted, "Why all of this?! Why did they all have to die?! Answer me, father!!"

"Your... mother," he inhaled painfully, broken ribs and armored flesh showing no mercy, "she gave her life to Eva... so mankind could have another chance..."

"But, why?! What was all this for?!"

"For her... to be with her again," Gendo struggled with the words as he coughed, adding his own blood to hand of Unit One, "If it meant... seeing her one more time... I would have given everything... sacrificed every last one of them... for her."

The giant growled with a deep, bass rumble that shook the walls of Terminal Dogma, shattering the restraining bolt that kept its jaw sealed. A piece of shrapnel struck Gendo on his bridge, sending his glasses flying and leaving a deep gash.

"Even me, father?"

"If it was necessary?" through his blood-clouded eyes Gendo could only see the face of his son staring back at him, "...Yes. For her... no sacrifice is too great."

Gendo never did get to see Yui's smiling face again, only Shinji's icy, emotionless stare, as his body failed against the sudden pressure from the giant's grip.

Sorry about that. In short, I don't think 3I could have believably been averted nor would it have made the story much better.

Try to search tool is you want MOAR.
Becareful with such words. Papa Desslock may come back to chastise the Council of Elders again. j/k

Personaly I don't believe in the search tool. I just make up my own facts and wait for others to correct them. double-j/k

Reichu

June 16th, 2006, 11:46 AM

This event is quite important to the narrative of the story; removing it would have hurt some of the messages of Eva.

Removing it would have also destroyed the plot. :lol:

Were Fuyutsuki a better man, he may have been able to convince Gendo, the other power-player, to avert Third Impact. Put in a different way, from a fragmented story of mine where Fuyutsuki was just such a man...

Well, if their little trio didn't do anything, Seele's already won. "I agree with your ideas, not Seele's," says the ex-Professor to Yui. Gendo and Yui seem to have plans in common. And Fuyutsuki also sticks by Gendo's side (with the occasional harsh word) up to the very end. Maybe Kozo's there because he approves of the "other scenario" for human evolution -- "Humans are delicate and fragile creatures...", after all -- and Third Impact is an ugly prerequisite for any of them.

[Warning long, unnecessary dialogue incoming.]
Hey, long, unnecessary dialogues! I know plenty about that! But, why is Shinji living out his episode #20 fantasies?

Becareful with such words. Papa Desslock may come back to chastise the Council of Elders again. j/k
http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/toothy-grin.gif "FORUMS & j00!!!"

Personaly I don't believe in the search tool.
The only problem is that the search tool here bl00z. You can't even do queries on "Yui" and "Rei", for crissake. But it's not always COMPLETELY useless. I mean, I can MAYBE locate something I'm looking for if I can remember enough key words. ...Maybe. :unsure:

It's considered a courtesy to at least give it a whirl first, though, regardless of what forum you go to.

I just make up my own facts and wait for others to correct them. double-j/k
http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/smokin.gif