Philosophy in Evangelion

[BigBet]

There seem to be a number of threads discussing different examples of Evangelion philosophy. I thought I'd make a common thread where we can mention our favorite examples of the same.

One of mine:
Episode 25 @ Eva Commentary (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-25/episode-25A-scene5.html)

And this in particular:


Rei 2 "I am me. I have become what I am now through my connections to other people."
Rei 3 (OFF · right): "The shape of my current self is being formed through my contact with other people."
Rei 2 (OFF · left) "My interaction with people and the flow of time change the shape of my mind."
Text: "Those are bonds?"
Rei, side profile UP. T·B.
Rei 2 "Yes, those are the things that have formed me -- the one called Rei Ayanami -- until now, and they will continue to form me after this."

I really like this scene beacuse it is obviously a reference to the basic philosophy of Evangelion : No human is an island; we are all products of our interaction with others. Even a character as socially inept as Rei (2?) realizes that she depends on human interaction for her existence, and in fact uses it as an argument with her other selves to defend her 'humanity'.

p.s. This is my first thread :P

[Oburi]

Great first thread! I love finding people who appreciate the philosophy of Evangelion as much as myself.

I myself have often contemplated the line "No man is an island" as I had read it in a piece of literature in high school. I didn't pick up on the relationship between this line and Evangelion until I had thought about the line on a seperate occasion.

[BigBet]

Actually, I got the idea of making this thread while watching the anime Serial Experiments Lain. I'm up to the 8th episode now, and the series contains ideas like the true nature of the self as being a sum of the self in the 'real' world and the self that exists in the 'Wired' i.e. The Internet - a place where all individuals are 'connected'. This made me think of the whole "The me that is in you" concept in Evangelion. Hence, this thread.

[Oburi]

Good thinking. :)

[The Eva Monkey]

Philosophy in Evangelion? Don't you mean Psychology in Evangelion?

There isn't really any philosophy in Evangelion to speak of aside from the forced philosophical comment by Rei at the end of episode 11. Evangelion is chock full of Psychology and Psycho-analytic theory, especially in its second half.

I think you're thinking along proper lines, you're just confusing philosophy and psychology, which are two very different things. One is a school of thought, the other is an abstract science.

[BigBet]

I was wondering whether to use Psychology or Philosophy in the thread title, and I ultimately chose Philosophy because most of the concepts I had in mind felt far too informal(?) to be Psychological. I must confess though, I am not at all well-versed in Psychology; I'm an Engineering student and haven't done a single course in Psychology. (My humanities elective happens to be German.)

[The Eva Monkey]

Evangelion fits Jungian psychology perfectly. Carl Jung was a big proponent of psycho-analytic theory and the collective unconscious, both of which figure very heavily into Evangelion.

I'm not a psyche buff, but I've taken a few courses, plus basic sociology, anthropology, and philosophy. Not to mention that as an visual art major, I'm expected to have a considerable grasp of Jungian psychology for analysis of art work, particularly that of the late 19th century and onward.

Fun fact, Carl Gustav Horn, editor of the English language version of the Evangelion Manga was named after Carl Gustav Jung, one of the pioneers of psychology. He was the successor of Sigmund Freud, the so-called "father" of the school of psychology.

[The Opinionator]

Philosophy encompasses a vast number of disciplines, and psychology falls under its umbrella. Just because people don't commonly associate psychology with philosophy doesn't mean that philosophy is not involved in psychology. They used to call science "natural philosophy" for a reason, too, you know.

[The Eva Monkey]

It sounds to me like you're considering a somewhat outdated definition of Philosophy, as Philosophy did encompass elements of psychological study before Psychology broke off and established itself as its own discipline. But for all intensive purposes, what we're talking about so far is concerned with the theories of Carl Jung, which rests firmly within the discipline of Psychology.

[GadmaCross4]

Understanding philosophy as the science Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline, and the science of the first causes and ultimate ends......Evangelion is all about philosophy....
Even when asking yourself if it is or not about philosophy you are philosophising... Philosophy is something inherent of the human nature...
So, as evangelion is about the people in it and the interactions between them that constitutes what defines them as who they are,..... then evangelion is undoubtfully inherently philosophical.

[The Eva Monkey]

No. I strongly disagree. I think you're taking the vast amounts of argument that take place in the Eva community and are trying to impart philosophical substance to Evangelion. The show itself is not philosophical. It is psychological drama, using the the language of visual imagery to create something both expressionistic and cathartic. If you want philosophy, go watch Gundam.

[tenshi_a]

Ah, Evangelion is big on philosophy on eps 25-26. It's epistemology; the branch of philosophy concerning existance. The merging of conciousnesses into a single entity / the boundaries of whether your singular conciousness = individuality. Whether reality is what you perceive, what happens if your perception is that of all of humanity; do you as an individual truly even exist?

[GadmaCross4]

Ah, Evangelion is big on philosophy on eps 25-26. It's epistemology; the branch of philosophy concerning existance. The merging of conciousnesses into a single entity / the boundaries of whether your singular conciousness = individuality. Whether reality is what you perceive, what happens if your perception is that of all of humanity; do you as an individual truly even exist?

I agree.... and that's not all there is either...

[The Opinionator]

It's true that the modern interpretation of the world "philosophy" has changed significantly to exclude some disciplines. However, that doesn't mean the previous definition wasn't better. I think there's something insightful in naming science "natural philosophy," because science is an wonderful example of philosophy in action.

As has been stated, any time you think about thinking, you're philosophizing, even if it's under the veil of Jungian psychology. After all, isn't Jungian psychology just a particular philosophy about the way the human mind works, insofar as science in general is just a particular philosophy about the way we should go about determining the nature of the universe?

Evangelion has a lot of philosophy in it, and I think that if you brush it off as "just psychology," then you'll be missing out.

[The Eva Monkey]

It's true that the modern interpretation of the world "philosophy" has changed significantly to exclude some disciplines. However, that doesn't mean the previous definition wasn't better.We shouldn't be concerned with the technicality of a definition, we should be concerned with what psychology as a discipline is defined as today, and that the topic of this thread remains on topic.

Philosophy of Evangelion could cover motives for initiating a rebirth of mankind, whereas Psychology of Evangelion is more concerned with self actualization and characterization.

This thread is not about the school of thought as it applies to Evangelion. This thread is about the psycho-analytic theory as it applies to Evangelion.

Anno did not pick up a book on philosophy midway through working on Evangelion, he picked up a book on psychology. You cannot argue with that.

That's not to say there is not any philosophy or philosophical interpretation to be found, but textbook psychology is what was the driving force in Evangelion.

[GadmaCross4]

Only recently, but not that recently in human history, and more specifically the history of sciences has psycology come to be as an independent discipline... Psycology is a science on its own, but before that it was part of philosophy, from which it separated... There is a relation between the two in which the measure of one (psycology) depends on the scale of the other (philosophy)... because to come to a scientific or any conclusion in the first discipline, the perspective of the other definitely needed. So, one couldn't say that there is the presence of one discarding the presence of the other...

[Reichu]

Anno did not pick up a book on philosophy midway through working on Evangelion, he picked up a book on psychology. You cannot argue with that.

Citation plzkthx. For my records.

[LuigiHann]

I think he was speaking metaphorically.

[crazykl45]

Ah, Evangelion is big on philosophy on eps 25-26. It's epistemology; the branch of philosophy concerning existance. The merging of conciousnesses into a single entity / the boundaries of whether your singular conciousness = individuality. Whether reality is what you perceive, what happens if your perception is that of all of humanity; do you as an individual truly even exist?

Hmm...Well epistemology is the branch of philsophy concerning theories of knowledge. Epistemology is closely relate to metaphysics, the branch of philosophy concerning reality and ontology, the branch of philosophy concerning existence or being.

However, eva is not big on philosophy in any of these traditional senses. The questions of eva are deeply psychological, not philosphical. One obvious example is the claim that truth is shaped by our perceptions of things. That's not a claim any philosopher will argue for. One big reason for this is that it violates the principle of non-contradiction, which is pretty much the fundamental law of logic. And, logic, like it or not, is the branch of philosophy that guides all philosophical inquiry.

When considering whether or not something is philosophical, asking whether or not the themes expressed are logical is a good starting place.

[The Opinionator]

I concede that psychology is the primary theme in Evangelion, regardless of the meaning one assigns to the word. My point, which as Eva Monkey indicated is not that important to the actual analysis of the psychology/philosophy present in the series, was that it is my moderately-educated opinion that psychology is as much a part of philosophy as science is a part of philosophy. I'm not going to change my mind unless significant evidence is given to the contrary, which would derail the thread, and I'm not going to continue to argue my opinion, which would also derail the thread. Since my point is moot as well as inconsequential when it comes to the actual analysis of whatever psychology/philosophy there is to be found in Evangelion, I suggest we stop debating the definitions of and differences between psychology and philosophy, and instead focus on the thread's original topic: the psychological/philosophical analysis of Evangelion.

[crazykl45]

Eh, you're probably right in the end. After all, philosophy is one of those things that resists strict definition.

I'm really interested in the Hedgehog's dilemma myself. It seems to be an important symbol in the series, but gets very little attention. Anyone know where it comes from?

[LuigiHann]

The concept originates from Arthur Schopenhauer's Parerga und Paralipomena. It entered the realm of psychology after the tale was discovered and adopted by Sigmund Freud.
From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedgehog's_dilemma)
We learn almost everything else about it from Ritsuko, it's a pretty simple little fable.

[Reichu]

I'm really interested in the Hedgehog's dilemma myself. It seems to be an important symbol in the series, but gets very little attention.

Does it? I don't think it has a habit of getting isolated for discussion in and of itself, but it has popped up plenty of times insofar as it relates to more specific aspects of the show. The Dilemma saturates the story and its characters, after all, and the underlying concept is -- as you basically suggest above -- one of NGE's central themes.

[OMF]

There is definitely metaphysical discussion to be found in evangelion, paticularly on the nature of the soul and the distinction between oneself and others. The show can certainly provoke as much philosophical debate as it can psychological.

[BigBet]

There is definitely metaphysical discussion to be found in evangelion, paticularly on the nature of the soul <snip>

Good point. While we're on this, I always wondered, has anyone figured out what exactly is the "Soul Lifecycle", so to speak, in NGE? We know that ATF = Light of the Soul. Retaining Physical form requires an ATF (Is this confirmed?). Dead bodies do not turn into LCL (until 3rd Impact : 'Tangified' corpses in EoE (http://) ). So where exactly does the Soul go after death, (if anywhere)?

[tenshi_a]

Hmm...Well epistemology is the branch of philsophy concerning theories of knowledge. Epistemology is closely relate to metaphysics, the branch of philosophy concerning reality and ontology, the branch of philosophy concerning existence or being.
Oh no, I got ontology out of epistemology! But how? Did I learn it somewhere? Or was it innate knowledge?

Good point. While we're on this, I always wondered, has anyone figured out what exactly is the "Soul Lifecycle", so to speak, in NGE? We know that ATF = Light of the Soul. Retaining Physical form requires an ATF (Is this confirmed?). Dead bodies do not turn into LCL (until 3rd Impact : 'Tangified' corpses in EoE ). So where exactly does the Soul go after death, (if anywhere)?
I thought the dead people were dead, and the LCL people were alive, even at the 3rd impact?

[Shin-seiki]

I thought the dead people were dead, and the LCL people were alive, even at the 3rd impact?By dead people, do you mean say Misato or Ritsuko? Obviously their souls are around to take part in Complementation. In NGE souls remain connected by the ATF to the physical body even after death; hence all the shots of corpses turned to LCL by the Anti-ATF. Even Kaji, who has been dead for weeks at the time of 3I, seems to have been complemented (per EoTV).

[tenshi_a]

So.... corpses have an ongoing AT Field, encasing the soul?

What about the souls in the Eva-Units at the point of 3rd impact, btw?

[Shin-seiki]

So.... corpses have an ongoing AT Field, encasing the soul?Yes. That is why they make a big deal in #23' of retrieving Rei's corpse, so that her soul can be vested into a new clone body.What about the souls in the Eva-Units at the point of 3rd impact, btw?Angelic bodies are unaffected by the Anti-ATF. Yui's soul remaind in Unit-01 throughout the process, of course, and Kyoko's soul is presumably liberated when Unit-02's core is destroyed by thhe Harpies (tho that is speculation, as EoE doesn't give any direct evidence of her fate). The souls of the Harpies seem to be liberating themselves when they pierce their own cores with the Copy Lances, apparently so they can take part in Complementation too.

[tenshi_a]

So... the soul is always removable from the physical presence, and doesn't go anywhere interesting upon death. When someone's dead, they're kind of switched off, rather than any sort of termination or afterlife kind of thing.

The soul is limited in its scope by the AT Field. Infiltration of the AT Field is infiltration of the soul.

(No wonder they get so upset about it)

The soul can be reduced to liquid form. And as such, when washed together can merge into one.

Am I following this ok so far?

So, um, how are the soul and conciousness tied together in this? Or, the soul and the physical presence?

Am I right in thinking they've made the assumption that the soul is maintained as being the same when transferred from one place to another, i.e. there's no effect from the physical being? So the soul is different from whatever mental state might be caused by physical aspects (chemicals in the brain)?

And if you get two containers full of LCL, can you split a soul in two between them? (e.g. pour half into one Eva, half in the other) ^_^

[BigBet]

So, um, how are the soul and conciousness tied together in this?

Well... Rei seems to lose memory everytime her soul and her physical form are separated and reunited. However, we cannot say if this is due to :
1. Limitations of the 'Soul Tranfer' technology
2. The inherent nature of the soul
3. The strange nature of Lilith's soul (e.g. Quantum Magic)

And if you get two containers full of LCL, can you split a soul in two between them? (e.g. pour half into one Eva, half in the other) ^_^

Something like this seems to have happened during Kyoko Zeppelin's Contact Experiment.
Also, some of Lilith's soul may have remained back in her body, because the Rei that speaks to Shinji during Instrumentality seems a lot more knowledgeable and sure of herself than any of her previous 'incarnations'. This also could explain the dialogue that takes place between Rei and Lilith prior to her absorption:
Rei: "I'm home"
Lilith(?): "Welcome back"

[tenshi_a]

We can observe loss of memory in human beings from physical deterioration or other physical stuff happening to the brain.

Therefore it's safe to assume that a soul doesn't retain memory, because memory is stored in the physical being. In the brain.

Is that thinking wrong? How come there are memories during instrumentality?

I was wondering about the soul and conciousness, as in... if you don't have a physical presence, you don't have senses or anything. Everything is internal. How come we see so much? How come it's all drawn from memory?

Regardless of whether all are one, what's the point of anyone existing as a liquid soul? Nothing but the past? Where's the appeal in that?

Why would *anyone* accept instrumentality?

(other than SEELE who we can now think of as a bunch of super-fanatic extreme philosophers)

If all are one, why is there still communication?

EDIT: conciousness not "as in" that example above... that's still the soul vs the physical being... conciousness as in... the individual thinking entity. The thing that pauses when unconcious, the thing that stops at death. Where the soul is retained in both instances. The soul of all, is concious, bringing back from the dead where conciousness has ended.... yeah?

(maybe that's what I was on about... I'm not sure anymore...)

[Shin-seiki]

If all are one, why is there still communication?The process (the weakness/deficiencies of everyone are filled/complemented by the strengths of others) takes time, and is depicted as a subjective experience that the individual characters are going thu (at least in EoTV), but it is almost complete in EoE when Shinji, who is separate from everyone else (i.e. he stays within the entry plug the whole time), rejects complementation, thereby crashing the whole process.

[BigBet]

We can observe loss of memory in human beings from physical deterioration or other physical stuff happening to the brain.

Therefore it's safe to assume that a soul doesn't retain memory, because memory is stored in the physical being. In the brain.

True in a real life scenario, but not true for Eva. If the soul did not store information, we would not have:
1. Different incarnations of Rei who remember (most of) the same things.
2. Yui attemptin to save her son's life in Episode 1 (and elsewhere)
3. Yui interacting with Shini when Eva-01 is absorbed into Leliel and again, when he is absorbed by Eva-01 itself.
4. Kyoko revealing herself to Asuka in EoE.
5. People interacting as souls during 3I
.... and many more

[tenshi_a]

ok... so they retain memory and can interact in some theoretical way...

Is the memory only retained in things related to angels?

How much of the interaction is pure? Isn't it a bit unreal? Where does emotion come into it? Emotion is fleeting and passionate, is it true interaction during all of that? Isn't a sudden switch to total acceptance uncomfortable? (Particularly for those of the Hedgehog's Dilemma ilk) Can you totally accept others when feeling uncomfortable? Was the switch to total acceptance completely caused by the breaking down of barriers? Why would that be; if one person's strengths are complemented by another's weaknesses, doesn't that still form *judgement* as to what strength and weakness of personality are? Does judgement compliment acceptance?

(It doesn't in most forms of religion..)

(heh, I haven't seen this series for years... I've forgotten so much... forgive me if I forgot the basics... I just felt like steering this thread to something other than the meta-discussion of whether you can have a philosophical discussion...)

[LuigiHann]

The soul can be reduced to liquid form. And as such, when washed together can merge into one.

I was under the impression that during the people-turning-into-LCL bit, the liquid is not the soul, but the physical body, losing its form. The souls were the little red dots which were going and being absorbed into Giant Naked Rei. I could be misreading it to some extent.

[Reichu]

Kyoko's soul is presumably liberated when Unit-02's core is destroyed by thhe Harpies (tho that is speculation, as EoE doesn't give any direct evidence of her fate)

Just as an odd tidbit: If you watch closely, you can actually see the exact moment that her core is pierced by the ninth Spear. (It's followed immediately by her clenching her left fist and abruptly falling limp.) Guess an animation from the Renewal DVD would be a good idea at some point...

@tenshi_a: I'm not sure what you're referring to by "liquid souls"... Souls in NGE appear to be quantum entities* and lifeforms in their own right (albeit ones that exist in symbiosis with the meatsacks that allow them to interact with the physical world). The mechanics behind souls even appears to be a very real scientific disclipline in the show: metaphysical biology, also Fuyutsuki's original profession.

I roll out some of my ideas about MPB over here (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=185418) -- although please keep in mind, especially at the beginning, that I was acting "like I was high on something". -_-;

And, yeah. Watch the show again sometime. It's plenty fun.

*Not quite sure how that should be phrased -- I don't know anything about this "quantum" stuff, really.

[JFaulkner]

Fun fact, Carl Gustav Horn, editor of the English language version of the Evangelion Manga was named after Carl Gustav Jung, one of the pioneers of psychology. He was the successor of Sigmund Freud, the so-called "father" of the school of psychology.

Interesting fact ....

However, I would not call Jung the "successor" of Freud - F&J used to be best buddies (collaborators spreading the word of psychoanalysis) until Jung moved more into religious and mystical sources. Freud was not amused and they split up acrimoniously, resulting in two bands of followers. And to be pedantic (well perhaps), Freud was not "father" of the school of psychology, but the psychoanalytic branch; Jung was a pioneer in psychoanalysis.

[CanonRAP]

Random Off Topic:

I thought Jung split with Freud because he didn't like his emphasis on sexuality?

[JFaulkner]

Random Off Topic:

I thought Jung split with Freud because he didn't like his emphasis on sexuality?

Yes, that was one of the major reasons, and led to Jung's different formulation of the "libido" concept. Collected Works 4 has some details on why Jung did not place sexuality on such a high pedestal.

Apart from that, Jung had misgivings about Freud's version of the unconscious as predominantly one of repressed consciousness; Jung saw parts of the unconscious as being innate (i.e. one is born with it; "DNA of the mind"; not derived from repressing conscious contents).

I think Freud's negative attitude towards religion also vexed Jung.

More on F&J's turbulent relationship is in Jung's (edited) autobiography "Memories, Dreams, Reflections."