NGE2 Classified Information

[Reichu]

Intro

The PlayStation 2 game "Neon Genesis Evangelion(s) 2" was released in lieu with the Renewal of Evangelion project in 2003. The game itself is just a "world simulator" based on the series, but it was hyped on the basis of containing the answers to some of NGE's most perplexing mysteries. These "answers" are apparently a set of unlockable data files, "Classified Information" (Kimitsu Jouhou), isolated from the actual gameplay. As Anno-kantoku himself was interviewed extensively by the creators of the game, this information is considered second-tier canon, i.e., "trustworthy unless in conflict with the show itself".

A while back, someone on the GameFAQs forum compiled an incomplete summary of this information, which was liberally designated the "MAGI Hack Files". Although useful because it was all that we had, the fact that it was neither complete nor a proper translation was extremely frustrating. It was only a couple of months ago that I finally managed to locate a full transcription (http://www.evacommentary.org/omake/nge2_kimitsu.txt) in the original Japanese, via serendipitous Googling. (Go figure.)

ANFers rockthing and Ornette executed an initial translation of the Classified Information. The former is over in Japan and has familiarity with the language, and Ornette acted as an editor of sorts. ("WTF is that supposed to mean?") I would like to extent my warmest thanks to both of you (and Hiromi ;) ) for torturing yourselves with this project. Having a groundwork and "second opinion" is an invaluable resource for me: I can figure out a lot of the Japanese used in NGE materials, although proper translations are very time-consuming, and I run into my fair share of snags. (A learning process, like anything else.)

I am currently going over the original Japanese myself and referencing rockthing's translation to compile a refined "synthesis" that aims to minimize Engrish while preserving the relayed information as accurately as possible. However, since a translation has its limits, I hope for the completed work –- which will be hosted at FGC -- to include, as appropriate, translation notes for the benefit of those unfamiliar, or largely so, with Japanese.

This thread will be used to introduce the data files as I process them. Subsequent discussion may help fine-tune the translations further and determine where notes are needed.

Contents

Data files are included for the following categories:

1. The Development of Eva
2. Eva Unit 01
3. The Second Children
4. Yui Ikari
5. Gendo Ikari
6. Special Agency Nerv
7. Marduk Institute
8. Gendo's Ambitions
9. The History of Nerv
10. Contents of the Human Instrumentality Project
11. Gehirn
12. Seele
13. A.T. Field
14. S2 Engine
15. Angel
16. Adam
17. Dead Sea Scrolls
18. First Ancestral Race
19. The Second Angel
20. Second Impact
21. Third Impact
22. The Spear of Longinus
23. Dummy Plug
24. Geofront

Each heading has four individual files, labeled according to -- judging from context -- "security level".

Level 1: Publicly Released Information
Level 2: Generally Recognized Information
Level 3: Confidential Information
Level 4: In-Depth Information

However, for ease of referencing specific files, we'll simply designate these A, B, C, and D. Ergo, the In-Depth Information file for "First Ancestral Race" would be, in shorthand, "18-D".

Since the journey of 24 x 4 data files has to begin somewhere, I'll start off by giving you what I've cooked up for the first three categories. More will come as energies permit. Please remember that I am overworked and unpaid. Ergo, unless you give me lots of money or something, "goodiness will come as it will". </irony>

Entries marked with * have footnotes by me.

1. The Development of Eva (Eva no Kouzou)

A. Publicly Released Information

The multipurpose humanoid decisive battle weapons developed by Nerv for use in combat against the Angels. They operate on electric power supplied via cable. The internal battery is only good for 5 minutes.

B. Generally Recognized Information

Clonally regenerated from the First Angel, who was discovered at the South Pole in the year 2000. The significance of this is that Evas have features in common with the Angels. One example is the A.T. Field, which can manipulate a physical domain. Evas differ from Angels in that they lack both S2 Engines and souls.*

C. Confidential Information

An Eva is a vessel for a soul that has abandoned human form, and a magnification of the self, i.e., the embodiment of a large human being. Attempts were made to operate Evas, but souls were not placed within them, and the entry of a soul was essential. The soul that enters an Eva is called a pilot. However, it takes more than a pilot to make Eva move. Perhaps the pilot cannot properly utilize the Eva's capabilities.*

D. In-Depth Information

An Eva combines the body of a god and the soul of a human being. To bridge the gap between the two, a unit called a "core" is utilized. The soul of the pilot's mother, which is contained within the core, acts as a medium and makes piloting possible.*

Due to difficulties encountered in the development of EVA-00, the core's system is poorly constructed, and she falls behind in performance capacity as a result. Another reason for her inferiority is that EVA-00's pilot, Rei, does not have a mother.

2. Eva Unit 01 (Eva Shogouki)

A. Publicly Released Information

The pilot is the Third Children, Shinji Ikari. This is the Evangelion Test Type.

B. Generally Recognized Information

During the development process of EVA-01, Shinji's mother, Yui Ikari, became the test subject for the Contact Experiment at her own request. She carried out the experiment with EVA-01 in 2004, but not without losing her life.

C. Confidential Information

Normally, in order for the pilot to link with the Eva's core, the soul of the pilot's mother must be contained within. In the case of EVA-01, it is Yui's soul.

D. In-Depth Information

As Gendo has already exhibited signs of treachery, his son's status as the pilot of EVA-01 is, in Seele's eyes, particularly dangerous. This is because Seele believe that the immortal soul should come into existence only on their terms. However, Gendo has his own plans for attaining divinity, which he hopes to fulfill using EVA-01.*

3. The Second Children

A. Publicly Released Information

Asuka Langley Soryu is the pilot of Eva Unit 02. Although her nationality is American, she is 1/4 German and 1/4 Japanese. She graduated from a German university at the age of fourteen.

B. Generally Recognized Information

Asuka's mother, Kyoko Zeppelin Soryu, carried out the Contact Experiment with Eva. As a result, she fell prey to a mental illness so severe that she could no longer recognize her own daughter.

C. Confidential Information

Not long after her mother's Contact Experiment with the Eva, Asuka was selected by the Marduk Institute to be the pilot of EVA-02.

D. In-Depth Information

When Asuka's mother carried out the experiment with the Eva's core, only part of her soul -- the maternal component that loves her daughter above all else -- remained within Eva Unit 02. This is the reason why she could not recognize her daughter.

Footnotes for 1~3

Due to ANF limits on post size conflicting with my latest, slightly expansive revision, these have been displaced to Post #3 (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5560858&postcount=3).

[Ornette]

B. Generally Recognized Information

Asuka's mother, Kyoko Zeppelin Soryu, carried out the Contact Experiment with Eva. As a result, she fell prey to a mental illness so severe that she could not longer recognize her own daughter.

Just a small nitpicky thing.

The bit from 1-C sounds a little weird... actually, after reading over that bit a few times it makes sense (the pilot/eva part I mean).

[Reichu]

EDIT: I was revising the first post and adding notes, but the dratted thing went into overflow. Hence, the notes have been displaced to the next best post.

***

Footnotes for 1~3

General: "Eva" is treated as a regular Japanese noun, so we get all of the vagueries involved (http://www.jref.com/language/japanese_grammar.shtml#Nouns.2C_pronouns .2C_and_other_deictics). When a specific Eva is referenced, that makes deciding upon an English wording much easier. Depending on whim, I use articles and inflection ("an Eva", "Evas", etc.), but, othertimes, I use "Eva", unadorned and unchanged, in a general sense. "Here we can see Eva in her natural habitat..."

1-B: "One example is the A.T. Field, which..." is a bit I'm having trouble articulating. It involves "affecting / having influence on / manipulating" + "physical field/realm/space", with a pesky particle that is, according to Barrett (@AnimeLyrics.com), "demonstrating that ATFields have influence over something you might not expect (physical space), as well as on other unstated things that you would expect (like for example, physical objects)". I'm going to get my head around this, one way or the other!

Regarding this "(those who are) clonally regenerated from..." ("...o moto ni clone saisei shita mono de aru") business... Barrett suggested that this simply be abbreviated to "cloned from", but, before I do that, I want to make sure that there isn't any nuance that would be lost. It does sound a bit dodgy as it currently stands, I'll give you that. ;)

1-C: Everything in the first sentence not relating to the "vessel function" rather confuzzles me. What does it mean? "You tell me, man. I only work here." FYI, "self" is jiga, which is also used (AFAIK) for the "ego" of psychoanalysis.

In the last sentence, "pilot" and "Eva" actually aren't mentioned, only implied; Japanese loves to do this. (And when they aren't being excruciatingly vague about who is doing what and to whom, they are being excruciatingly repetitive. Sometimes.)

1-D: I need to check something about that first sentence. Watch this space.

2-D: "Kami. Kami is the word that I hate." I babble a little about it here ( http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-21/episode-21B-scene6.html#cut181).

"Immortal soul" is "kami no tamashii"; this could be translated in a number of ways, such as "soul of god", with interpretational allowances made for those pesky articles and plurals that don't exist in Japanese. (Or, in the latter case, not usually.) Keep this in mind. However, I went with what rockthing cooked up, because I thought it sounded nice. (Nice and Seele...) Gendo's "divinity", similarly, makes references to achieving the status of that all-ambiguous "kami" ("kami ni shiyou to kuwadatete iru"). Whatever the hell it means in NGE, immortality seems to be involved, but the specifics still need to be worked out. Curse you, Anno, throwing these annoying words at us! :crybaby: (This isn't the only one that irks me to the Seventh Layer of Hell.)

***

--Contents of original post start here--

Just a small nitpicky thing.

"Oh crap."

The bit from 1-C sounds a little weird... actually, after reading over that bit a few times it makes sense (the pilot/eva part I mean).

Which part specifically? "Magnify your ego! Become an Eva today!" Or, wait, are you talking about the last one? "Perhaps this is because pilots suck."

[Ornette]

Which part specifically? "Magnify your ego! Become an Eva today!" Or, wait, are you talking about the last one? "Perhaps this is because pilots suck."
Yeah, the last one, but I think it's fine the way it is. It was mostly this:
The soul that enters an Eva is called a pilot.
I had always assumed they meant the soul that the eva required was the "mother", but in the context of the rest of that section it makes sense. Also I think the source that we used may have had sentences missing from that section.

[Reichu]

I had always assumed they meant the soul that the eva required was the "mother", but in the context of the rest of that section it makes sense.

As far as I can tell, it fits in with the show, too. The Eva soul/pilot stuff is complicated, but this is bringing one of Rei's rather enigmatic comments into focus: namely, "Entry plug, the throne of a soul".

Also I think the source that we used may have had sentences missing from that section.

Oh, you weren't mistaken. The line just says "This is called a/the pilot" (Kore o pilot to iu), but, looking at the way I worded the translation of the previous line, I thought, "someone who's reading this might be scratching their head over what 'this' is", hence the change.

But I'm guessing everything is going to be tweaked to Kingdom Come before it's all finished. "This is a work in progress."

[Scutilla]

Awesome work- I look forward to the rest of it.

Due to difficulties encountered in the development of EVA-00, the core's system is poorly constructed, and she falls behind in performance capacity as a result. Another reason for her inferiority is that EVA-00's pilot, Rei, does not have a mother.
Interesting... does this affect the argument that Rei I/Lilith is in Eva-00 (either positively or negatively)?

As Gendo has already exhibited signs of treachery, the fact that Gendo's son is the pilot of EVA-01 is, in Seele's eyes, particularly dangerous. This is because Seele believe that the immortal soul should come into existence only on their terms. However, Gendo has his own plans for attaining godhood, which he hopes to fulfill using EVA-01.*
I think in this case the "immortal soul" refers to the SoL involved in Instrumentality/Third Impact. Obviously in the scenario that occured in EoE the immortal soul would be GNR/Lilith (or perhaps both Adam and Lilith), I'm not sure what Seele or Gendo intended it to be since we never get to see how their scenarios would play out (instead we see the two of them mushed together, combined through Rei's own initiative).

[Shin-seiki]

Interesting... does this affect the argument that Rei I/Lilith is in Eva-00 (either positively or negatively)?You tell me... ;)
http://madboards.madman.com.au/viewtopic.php?p=545256#545256

edit: to make it easier to reply, here's the gist of that post:IMO, the most intersting tidbit in what I posted so far was this:In the case of Asuka's mother's experiment with the EVA's core, a portion of her soul, only that part that, as a mother, loves her daughter most of all, remained in EVA Unit-02. Because of that, it became impossible for her mother to recognize Asuka as her daughter.This is straight confirmation that a soul is 'splittable', and capable of existing in two different beings at once. Think about how that may relate to this:Unit-00 is of inferior efficiency, since it's core system is not well made, having had a troubled development. Moreover, Rei, the pilot of Unit-00, has no mother.
Consider what Shinji sees in Unit-00 in #14:
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/2500/rei149ey.jpg

and that this "bug-eyed Rei"...
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9175/25rei98go.th.jpg (http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=25rei98go.jpg)

...is specifically identified in the Renewal script for #25 as "Rei I".

In light of what is said about Kyoko's soul being partially taken into Unit-02, did something similar happen with Rei and Unit-00? Did a part of Rei's soul, that part that held a grudge against anyone named Akagi, end up in Unit-00?
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7281/0021zq.jpg

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/8841/0016ve.jpg

[OMF]

Facinating stuff, not least in the way it may vindicate those scorned for "going to deep". Perhaps we haven't simply been creating castles out of the air.

Just a small question though on the "clonal regeneration" translation. By clon-[b]al[/], do you mean that the translation essential said the Evas were only "like" clones, and were not in fact clones? Do you have the translation notes for this phrase handy?

[Soluzar]

This is straight confirmation that a soul is 'splittable', and capable of existing in two different beings at once.
Ahh, it's good to see direct confirmation from authoritative sources of some of the theories that we've believed to be true for years... I'm still a lot dubious about what (if anything) can be drawn out of the rest of these documents, but that goes to show that something that was always believed, but could never really be confirmed, is really true.

Facinating stuff, not least in the way it may vindicate those scorned for "going to deep". Perhaps we haven't simply been creating castles out of the air.That judgement is still to be made on a case-by-case basis. Some of the theories which have been put forward in this group of fans still strike me as the worst variety of unsupported speculation, or worse.

Just a small question though on the "clonal regeneration" translation. By clon-[b]al[/], do you mean that the translation essential said the Evas were only "like" clones, and were not in fact clones? Do you have the translation notes for this phrase handy?
It's also possible that this word "clonal" means "of, or pertaining to, clones". I can see where you're probably going with this, and I ask you politely to not pollute this thread with such things. Quote, cross-reference, and pick up the debate in a more appropriate thread.

[Reichu]

Facinating stuff, not least in the way it may vindicate those scorned for "going to deep". Perhaps we haven't simply been creating castles out of the air.

If it floats, it floats. "We don't need anyone's approval but NGE's own!"

Just a small question though on the "clonal regeneration" translation. By clon-al, do you mean that the translation essential said the Evas were only "like" clones, and were not in fact clones? Do you have the translation notes for this phrase handy?

It's "clone" + "saisei" (SpaceAlc (http://www2.alc.co.jp/ejr/index.php?word_in=%8D%C4%90%B6&word_in2=%82%A0%82%A2%82%A4%82%A6%82%A8&word_in3=PVawEWi72JXCKoa0Je), one of my bestest friends). When one noun appears in front of another with no particle separating the two, the first can be "interpreted into" an adjective in translation, since it's just kind of understood. "Clonal" is the adjective form of "clone", so that's what I used. But, looking at the Japanese again, I see something else attached to the clone saisei that I glossed over... (Probably because it's one of those structures that my brain is still trying to grasp. "Mono! Koto! I hate you both!") I'll make a revision once I investigate.

[thewayneiac]

When Asuka's mother carried out the experiment with the Eva's core, only part of her soul -- the maternal component that loves her daughter above all else -- remained within Eva Unit 02. This is the reason why she could not recognize her daughter.

O.K, so Eva Unit-01 has all of Yui's soul. Unit-02 has part of Kyoko's soul (as I suspected all along). So, the BIG QUESTION is: Does Rei have all or just part of Lilith's soul?

[The Million Dollar Prons]

I'd love to play it, maybe one of the shadier Eva forum members can PM me with a torrent link.

- Evil man

[Reichu]

O.K, so Eva Unit-01 has all of Yui's soul. Unit-02 has part of Kyoko's soul (as I suspected all along).

The "Please die with me!" that we get before Kyoko appears to Asuka in #25' seems to imply that they put her back together after she killed herself. Notice that file 3-D is only in reference to what happened at the time of the CE itself and the immediate aftermath.

So, the BIG QUESTION is: Does Rei have all or just part of Lilith's soul?

The vital essence of it, by the looks of things, but accompanied by nothing more than a vague sense of original self. After Rei 3 fuses with the body of her origin, we are dealt what seems to be a rather different person... The implications are that we are hearing from Lilith proper, in touch with her billions of years, just appearing and speaking through her Lilim avatar:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/Rei/m26_C391.jpg

...although the Shekinah form never actually talks*, and only looks like "Rei proper" once:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/Rei/m26_C173_c.jpg

* Only Illuminates (= ATF Speak) ... or eerily vocalizes upon awakening.

[Cesternino53]

This is excellent! There are likely to be several lively(well, you know...) discussions that stem from all this. I'm particularly looking forword to the bit about 2I and 3I. Especially 3I, because I want to find out for sure the differences between Gendo and Keel's 3I. Of course, the rest will be interesting too. Breal all next week, so I should have plenty of time to go over Eva again.

I am surprised that there are not seperate sections for Rei and Kawrou. Thosr two, along with Yui(who does have her own section) seem to tie everything together, in many ways.

[Reichu]

TI'm particularly looking forword to the bit about 2I and 3I. Especially 3I, because I want to find out for sure the differences between Gendo and Keel's 3I.

"I'd rather die than tell you everything!" ~Anno

I am surprised that there are not seperate sections for Rei and Kaworu. Those two, along with Yui(who does have her own section) seem to tie everything together, in many ways.

Well, who are Kaworu and Rei... deep down inside?

16. Adam
19. The Second Angel

But Yui's so cool that she gets one section for each incarnation of herself.

Speaking of Yui... [Edit: I've also added sections 5 through 7.]

*****

4. Yui Ikari

A. Publicly Released Information

The mother of Shinji Ikari, and Gendo's wife. She was 27 years old at the time of her death in 2004.

B. Generally Recognized Information

Yui Ikari was a brilliant genetic engineer and an authority in her field. In the year 2004, she performed the Contact Experiment on EVA-01 (who was under development) and allegedly died during it.

C. Confidential Information

By becoming the test subject for the Contact Experiment, Yui could let her soul inhabit EVA-01. Shinji also became the pilot of EVA-01 because Yui's soul dwells within.

D. In-Depth Information

Yui is the daughter of an influential member of Seele, and, accordingly, was in the position of being able to understand their plans. Gendo, knowing this, became acquainted with her.

5. Gendo Ikari

A. Publicly Released Information

Commander in Chief of Nerv and Shinji Ikari's father. A cool-headed personality who will use any means necessary to achieve his goals. His subordinates find him somewhat difficult to deal with.

B. Generally Recognized Information

Served the formerly existing entity, Gehirn, as the chief of the Artificial Evolution Laboratory. He employs his gift for manipulating information and concealing his handiwork in order to actively acquire funding for Nerv's administration.

C. Confidential Information

Married Yui Ikari, who has connections with Seele, so that he could become a member himself. He held consecutive posts as the Executive Chief of Operations (among other things) for Project E, the Human Instrumentality Project, and Nerv. Not long after he became a member of Seele, he headed for the South Pole to be an auditor for the Katsuragi Investigation Team.

D. In-Depth Information

Gendo's goals, like Seele's, are the annihilation of the Angels and the Human Instrumentality Project –- but, for him, this means reuniting with the deceased Yui. He is constantly on his toes so as not to betray the treachery he has in mind. Seele keep a close eye on him and issue threats as needed.

6. Special Agency Nerv

A. Publicly Released Information

A special agency under the direct supervision of the United Nations. Its objectives are to investigate, study, and eliminate the Angels. Nerv's headquarters are in Tokyo-3, the 1st and 2nd Branches are in America, and the 3rd Branch is in Germany.

B. Generally Recognized Information

The relationship between the government and Nerv leaves much to be desired, as the former believe that Nerv are responsible for the coming of the Angels. The Human Instrumentality Committee, a small organization within the UN, holds approval authority over Nerv's budget.

C. Confidential Information

One of Nerv's goals is to annihilate the Angels, but they are also aiming for the evolution of humanity –- in other words, the path to divinity. Eva is the key to achieving both goals.

D. In-Depth Information

Nerv Headquarters was constructed inside the Black Moon containing Lilith. The Angels are all heading for Nerv H.Q. so that they can make contact with Lilith, the white giant in Terminal Dogma. They were aiming for her from the start, not Adam.

7. Marduk Institute

A. Publicly Released Information

Data unavailable.

B. Generally Recognized Information

An advisory body under the direct supervision of the Human Instrumentality Committee, established for the purpose of selecting Eva pilots. It operates secretly, and the truth behind the organization is unclear.

C. Confidential Information

The Marduk Institute is comprised of 108 associated companies, all dummies; in essence, the organization does not exist. Reports filed from the Marduk Institute to Nerv are, in truth, being prepared within Nerv itself.

D. In-Depth Information

The selection of candidates by the Marduk Institute is considered a necessary ruse. This is so that it is not outwardly apparent that Gendo is choosing candidates at his own discretion.

Footnotes for 4~7

6-C. The "evolution of humanity" is, here, equated to the "path to divinity". It's literally worded with an "equals" sign: jinrui no shinkou = kami e no michi. (The latter part ought to look familiar by now.) The NGE2 stuff does this a lot.

The second sentence is actually two, but I can't figure on anything that doesn't sound long and Engrishy. ("The achievement of both goals will be carried out due to a single key's existence. And that is Eva." Ewwww.)

6-D. I have some questions about "from the start" (hajime kara) and if there is anything "implied, but unspoken" about it. Currently investigating that, along with one other bit. Entry shall be thoroughly rewritten after that.

7-D. "Candidate", here, is tekininsha 適格者, "an eligible or qualified person". Tekininsha is used interchangeably with the word "Children".

[Scutilla]

Yui was the child of a prominent figure in Seele, and, accordingly, was in the position of being able to understand their plans. Gendo, knowing this, became acquainted with her.
Interesting, I don't remember ever hearing anything about Yui's parents.

Now all we need is for Seele08 to speculate as to which council member is Shinji's grandpa/ma ;)

[Seele08]

Well according to any actual cannon information given within the show we don't know. Yui's parents are never mentioned. But if he/she is they aren't a member of the commitee, as none of them originate in Japan.

[HeWhoPostsStuff]

"Magnify your ego! Become an Eva today!"
*makes vain attempt to fight off mental image of Eva-01 in an Uncle Sam hat, on an "I Want YOU!"-style poster*

[rockthing]

D. In-Depth Information

Yui was the child of a prominent figure in Seele, and, accordingly, was in the position of being able to understand their plans. Gendo, knowing this, became acquainted with her.

I just talked to my partner, Hiromi, and she supports the translation that reichu has posted.

'Yui is the daughter of an influential member of Seele.'

When I originally looked at that text I thought that it was meant in a more
figurative sense, but didn't double check with Hiromi, who has been really busy.
Kudos to reichu for not self-censoring based on personal disbelief. ;)

It definitely pays to have several people looking at the same text.

[Shao]

"I'd rather die than tell you everything!" ~Anno



Well, who are Kaworu and Rei... deep down inside?

16. Adam
19. The Second Angel

But Yui's so cool that she gets one section for each incarnation of herself.

Speaking of Yui...

*****

4. Yui Ikari

A. Publicly Released Information

The mother of Shinji Ikari, and Gendo's wife. She was 27 years old at the time of her death in 2004.

B. Generally Recognized Information

Yui Ikari was a brilliant genetic engineer and an authority in her field. In the year 2004, she performed the Contact Experiment on EVA-01 (who was under development) and allegedly died during it.

C. Confidential Information

By becoming the test subject for the Contact Experiment, Yui could let her soul inhabit EVA-01. Shinji also became the pilot of EVA-01 because Yui's soul dwells within.

D. In-Depth Information

Yui was the child of a prominent figure in Seele, and, accordingly, was in the position of being able to understand their plans. Gendo, knowing this, became acquainted with her.


Where did you get the info from?

[Soluzar]

Where did you get the info from?

In the first post of this topic, it is stated that this information comes from the game "Shin-Seiki Evangelions 2" on PS2. It was advertised at the release of this game that this information was gathered from a series of interviews with Anno himself.

Reichu has been translating it.

[Shin-seiki]

Where did you get the info from?
Um, you did read the first post in this thread, didn't you?
Specifically, the transcriptions of the NGE2 files that Reichu is working from are here...
http://homepage3.nifty.com/mana/eva2kimitsu.html

...and here:
http://www.evacommentary.org/omake/nge2_kimitsu.txt

[Magami No ER]

*Reads*
Nice thread. :thumbsup:

[Shao]

Um, you did read the first post in this thread, didn't you?
Specifically, the transcriptions of the NGE2 files that Reichu is working from are here...
http://homepage3.nifty.com/mana/eva2kimitsu.html

...and here:
http://www.evacommentary.org/omake/nge2_kimitsu.txt


Yes I did read, but there was no direct links so I can see it myself.

P.S. Thanks of the links.

[Reichu]

I just talked to my partner, Hiromi, and she supports the translation that reichu has posted.

The entire thing, or just the line about Yui being born into Seele?

'Yui is the daughter of an influential member of Seele.'

You know, that sounds a lot nicer than what I used. I think I'll steal it. ;)

When I originally looked at that text I thought that it was meant in a more figurative sense, but didn't double check with Hiromi, who has been really busy. Kudos to reichu for not self-censoring based on personal disbelief. ;)

I do my best. ^_^

It definitely pays to have several people looking at the same text.

Always! (Or however many you can get, anyway.) I've also been nagging (so to speak) the folks at a Japanese language forum about some bits that have troubled me -- or sparked the curiosities, anyway -- so that offers another viewpoint. Bluh, compiling notes for these is going to be annoying...

@Shin-seiki: The document hosted at FGC is a complete set of the Classified Information files that I rescued from Google's cache, whereas the other link is incomplete. (Guess the person who transcribed it hadn't unlocked everything.) Just thought I'd mention it.

I'll be adding the G-Man and making some revisions later.

[Cesternino53]

How are we really supposed to take this information? It's, as previously said, second-tier canon, but it seems a bit... off. I don't know if I can buy the whole "Yui is a Selee commiteeman's daughter" thing.

Also, it doesn't seem to be telling us that much we don't know. We haven't gotten to the most controversial parts yet though so...

[Shin-seiki]

How are we really supposed to take this information? It's, as previously said, second-tier canon, but it seems a bit... off. I don't know if I can buy the whole "Yui is a Selee commiteeman's daughter" thing.
I have no trouble buying it. Yui's conversation with Fuyutsuki at the levee in #21' indicates that she knows what SEELE is up to, so this is just a way of explaining why she would be 'in the know'. Also, this gives a plausible reason for why an ambitious nobody like Gendo would set his sights on her, namely to marry into the organization...

[The Million Dollar Prons]

Reichu speaks Japanese?

Reichu, come translate for my fansub group.

[Vaikyuko]

I hereby wish to state my approval of this topic. I hereby also wish to state my anxious waiting for the translations of Sections 7-A~D, 11-A~D, 12-A~D, 14-A~D, 22-A~D, and 23-A~D.

Those are, shall we say, some of my favorite topics.

[Reichu]

Reichu speaks Japanese?

Reichu, come translate for my fansub group.

I can fake a Japanese accent to the point where most English-speakers will have no idea what I'm saying (e.g., if I'm saying something Japanese in origin they might know), but, you throw me into Japan, and I'm dead as sushi. Without looking anything up, I could probably make really short sentences in Broken Japanese and piss everyone off because I haven't memorized all of the polite stuff. Uhhhh... "Doumo arigatou gozaimasu!" "Hai, douzo!" "Pi-ka-chuuuuuu!" "Was kann ich fur dich tun?" "Aa, machigai nai. Shito da."

:unsure:

And my listening comprehension sucks like a <insert colorful metaphor>, too.

When you just sit around and try to translate NGE stuff out of brute determination because no one else does (generally), any Japanese skills become somewhat... "specialized". -_-;

Yui's conversation with Fuyutsuki at the levee in #21' indicates that she knows what SEELE is up to, so this is just a way of explaining why she would be 'in the know'.

She also sort of blatantly states that she's "with Seele".

Also, this gives a plausible reason for why an ambitious nobody like Gendo would set his sights on her, namely to marry into the organization...

Well, that's the "professional" reason. His initial motives for going after her may have been shady -- i.e., he was intent on using her -- and it got on the grapevine fast.

FUYUTSUKI (MONO):
But within our circle, the common opinion was that he had approached Yui
for her talent and for the organization backing her.

I do sort of wonder: Was Gendo planning on it being merely a seduction, and, lo and behold, what a pleasant surprise! It turned into... well, about as pure a love as you can get. (Maybe because Yui was good at neutralizing ATFs back then, too? ;) ) Even so, it seems he was able to keep this aspect of the relationship nice and private:

Keel "'Scientists'... They put too much faith in their own ideas."
Ikari "Is it self-righteousness?"
Keel "So caught up in their dogma, they lose their grip on reality."
Ikari "Yet they are the ones who are searching for the truth. How ironic."
Keel "They are not so noble. Discovery is joy, and understanding leads to control. All they seek is their own exaltation."

Gendo's already married himself into Seele by this point and ingratiated himself with Keel, and the old codger feels at complete liberty to diss scientists around him. And Gendo simply sits there and nods his head. Is this just because Keel doesn't know...?

[Seele08]

I would think that Keel's orginization would be able to perform superb background checks. He knew a great deal about the Ikaris by that time.

[Ornette]

I have no trouble buying it. Yui's conversation with Fuyutsuki at the levee in #21' indicates that she knows what SEELE is up to, so this is just a way of explaining why she would be 'in the know'. Also, this gives a plausible reason for why an ambitious nobody like Gendo would set his sights on her, namely to marry into the organization...
And maybe partly why he chose her family name instead of keeping his.

[Reichu]

And maybe partly why he chose her family name instead of keeping his.

Yes; it's not unheard of for a Japanese man to adopt his wife's surname if she is of higher social status than him.

I suspect that the "other reason" (private, vs. professional) is due to a troubled family history. Of course they never get into Gendo's past, but you know from his personal issues -- expecting that he'll be disliked, believing that he doesn't deserve love, the "cold bastard facade as defense mechanism", etc. -- that something is up.

"Ikari" also sounds cooler than "Rokubungi". ;)

[DatDude]

How are we really supposed to take this information? It's, as previously said, second-tier canon, but it seems a bit... off. I don't know if I can buy the whole "Yui is a Selee commiteeman's daughter" thing.

Also, it doesn't seem to be telling us that much we don't know. We haven't gotten to the most controversial parts yet though so...

This information is presented in the form of a forgetable videogame put out long after the show had rapped. I dont put verymush stock in it, because I beleive what is on the screen in the final cut is all that matters.

We have no way of knowing if annos involvment with this was the same as the way he directed " RE: Cutie honey " Anyone that knows the mans directing style can tell others did nearly all of that show.

I know in american animation its common to use a series bible. These things hold information the various wirters and animaters use to keep things streight.
The information ive seen from the game reminds of of these.

My fear is that this things may have changed between the writing of this guides, and the actual show. An office memo changing character X or removing a given subplot happins all the time, and does not normaly show up.

The genral attitude of certain people treating this game like its the second comming of eva is disturbing. Anno commishing a set of cards at some point that had info on them that was pretty off the wall. I dont see how bonus informaton in a PS2 can be some how better then that.

[Reichu]

The focus of this thread relates to my goal of completing a refined translation of the "Classified Information". Receiving feedback on this work from others along the way is something I find very helpful. In order to keep things on topic and relatively pleasant, I would prefer if discussion on the merit of this information -- insofar as its status as second-tier canon material -- be excluded from this particular thread. If this is something that others would like to pursue, the "New Topic" button beckons...

Also, "certain people", as you used it, carries pejorative connotations. It might be better to specify who you're referring to.

[thewayneiac]

Maybe we shouldn't be so swift to assume that Gendo married into Seele in order to enhance his own prestige. Perhaps he did so because he was already planning on stopping them, and was pleasantly supprised to find that Yui agreed with him. Or perhaps he inspired her to betray them instead of vice-versa.

[Reichu]

Maybe we shouldn't be so swift to assume that Gendo married into Seele in order to enhance his own prestige. Perhaps he did so because he was already planning on stopping them, and was pleasantly supprised to find that Yui agreed with him.

That was my line of thought, as well. Gendo's actions and behavior don't seem to have so much to do with an interest in "prestige" as "desperate times call for desperate measures", "when in Seele, do as Seele does", and... well, what better way to foil the bad guys than from the inside? And the higher up you are, the more whoop-a$$ you can deliver when the time is ripe. (You just have to do a lot of dirty work and toad-eating to get there.)

Gendo's motives are rather mysterious, but we must remember that Yui is a saint with ATF-piercing powers. ("He's really a very sweet person...") Skepticism of the audience -- and Kozo, at first -- aside, Gendo seems to be a pretty well-intentioned guy, underneath it all.

Gendo: Well, while this isn't what you guys had in mind, I guess we're going to take EVA-01 and...
Seele: We know what you're going to say, you traitor. <Insert major, yet extremely cryptic, plot exposition.> Forget it. We're gonna do things our way.
Gendo: Your way sucks. Death gives birth to nothing.
Keel: We'll give you kids plenty of death to suck on.
:whoosh:
Kozo: I have a bad feeling about this... Thank heavens for Yui.

Or perhaps he inspired her to betray them instead of vice-versa.

No way to know... But Yui was already doing bioengineering research backed by Seele when Gendo popped out of the shadows. Doesn't it seem a bit ... off that Yui would have gone into that as a loyal Seele, only to make an abrupt 180? That the two were kindred spirits from the beginning seems considerably more likely.

Gendo's (first) section is nearly ready; I'm just scoping out a couple of things first.

[Cesternino53]

Are we to assume then, that Yui's father in Selee either:

a. Was dead by the time the show took place.
b. Didn't care too much about his daughter.
c. Wasn't one of the "Big Twelve" Selee members (how many more people are in Selee besides these 12 anyways?)

Because none of the twelve monoliths ever mentioned anything to Gendo, Kozo, Ritsuko, Kawrou, or anyone else about his daughter being "killed" (if that's the term I should use). I would think that the man would harbor some resentment, probably towards Ikari Sr. It isn't difficult to blame other people.

There is always the possibility that Yui's father is completely devoted to Selee's goals, and views Yui's "death" as a nescesary sacrifice.

[Insidious Roden]

Your work is exceptional Reichu. I eagerly await the arrival of future translations. As much as you might not intend this as a "comming of the second Eva", I'm afraid that judging by this thread's heavy traffic many readers of these forums are taking it to be. I am just using these translations as a guide to clarify some of the more ambigious aspects of the the original series. It's proving thought provoking if nothing more.

[rockthing]

The entire thing, or just the line about Yui being born into Seele?



You know, that sounds a lot nicer than what I used. I think I'll steal it. ;)

HANDS OFF! theif!.......
:P just kidding, I paraphrased cause I was too lazy to scroll down to see
what you had actually written....

I was referring only to the part where it talks about Yui's heritage.
I checked because I didn't remember typing that. ;)


Always! (Or however many you can get, anyway.) I've also been nagging (so to speak) the folks at a Japanese language forum about some bits that have troubled me -- or sparked the curiosities, anyway -- so that offers another viewpoint. Bluh, compiling notes for these is going to be annoying...

If you've got some one-liners that are still bugging you let me know.
I could have a second look or, if the question is specific enough,
I can ask a native speaker. It's a little unfair to ask someone not interested
in the series to sit down and sift through large sections of this document.
I think.

[thewayneiac]

That the two were kindred spirits from the beginning seems considerably more likely.

Yeah, I would tend to agree with that.

[Talon]

i LOVE this!!! Second tier canon is fine with me. I've been waiting for a translation ever since I heard about the game's "revealing" information. I can't wait for more...

[Soluzar]

How are we really supposed to take this information? It's, as previously said, second-tier canon, but it seems a bit... off.
To be blunt, it seems decidedly on to me, so far. Having said that, I've grown used to these nuggets of info over the last six months or so. I don't know quite how to react to some of the revelations which are yet to come myself, but these parts are exactly what I had expected they would be.

I don't know if I can buy the whole "Yui is a Selee commiteeman's daughter" thing.SEELE member. Not committee member. That's a crucial distinction. I imagine that SEELE has many hundreds of members throughout the world, considing that they wield so much power. I doubt very much if she is the daughter of one of the SEELE types that we've seen in the anime. In the end, what you believe is entirely up to you.

Also, it doesn't seem to be telling us that much we don't know. We haven't gotten to the most controversial parts yet though so...
The most controversial parts that I am aware of pertain to the Longinus no Yari, and to the origin of Adam and Lilith. Those parts should make your hair stand on end.

This information is presented in the form of a forgetable videogame, which was put out long after the show had wrapped.
The information does not relate in any direct manner to the videogame. It is presented as "bonus material" for the otaku playing the game, not as an actual part of the gameplay.

I dont put very much stock in it, because I beleive what is on the screen in the final cut is all that matters.There's something to be said for that way of thinking, but I must say that most of the information thus far gleaned from these transcripts merely confirms that which I had already guessed. That's an excellent way to use this information. Form a theory based on the anime, and then confirm it with these notes.

We have no way of knowing if Anno's involvment with this was the same as the way he directed "RE: Cutie Honey" Anyone that knows the man's directing style can tell others did nearly all of that show.I wouldn't know a damn thing about that particular anime, so I'm not qualified to comment. However, the information, as I said, is secondary, which means that everything presented here must serve either as independant confirmation of theories which can be generated from the anime itself, or as pointers for things to watch out for. It offers no answers, but it can prompt us to ask the right sort of cquestions

This information was compiled after the final cut, and it is therefore more than likely that it would have been updated to take all changes into account. In addition to this, while other people may have written the odd bit here and there, Evangelion has only one creative force behind it, only one person who made the final call on storyline elements. That is very different from most American shows of any kind.

[quote]The general attitude of certain people treating this game like it is the second comming of Eva is disturbing.Like I said, it offers confirmation of theories that have been put forward, and the suggestion of new theories which can later be formed from the evidence present in the anime. Sometimes we are going to need these extra nudges towards where the information was located. Don't worry so much. Nobody is fool enough to blindly believe this information without sanity-checking it first.

Anno commissed a set of cards at some point that had info on them that was pretty off the wall. I dont see how bonus information in a PS2 game can be somehow be better then that.
Some of those cards are better than others, in terms of what they tell us, and the information they present has in fact been valuable. However, I digress; Anno did not write those cards, not has he ever been advertised as having done so. This is direct from the sole creative force, himself. It's got to be worth a look, whatever you do with the information afterwards. In the end, if the info is bad, it will be rejected by the analytical minds who post here. Bad theories don't last long here, unlike at other forums I could mention... they sometimes have one lone fan who won't let go, but the majority, the consensus, moves on.

[Reichu]

Gendo, Nerv, and the Marduk Institute are up here (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5562988&postcount=15). (I thought I would give Yui company.) Some revisions to prior sections are pending.

[Ornette]

B. Generally Recognized Information

An advistory body under the direct supervision of the Human Instrumentality Committee, established for the purpose of selecting Eva pilots. It operates secretly, and the truth behind the organization is unclear.
from marduk institute section. another nitpicky thing

[Seele08]

SEELE member. Not committee member. That's a crucial distinction. I imagine that SEELE has many hundreds of members throughout the world, considing that they wield so much power. I doubt very much if she is the daughter of one of the SEELE types that we've seen in the anime. In the end, what you believe is entirely up to you.

Her father couldn't be on the commitee, none of them were Japanese, they were from the UK (Nigel), the US (Teddy!), Russia (Vlad-damn commies!) click here for Vlad fan-art http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5563384&postcount=2985 , and France (Pierre). These countries also make up the Big Four, which seems to date SEELE...since some of those countries haven't even existed four even hundreds of years, not to mention the Big Four didn't come about till the end of WWII.

[Reichu]

Sayeth Reichu, "An advistory body..."

from marduk institute section. another nitpicky thing

Whaaaaat? That was CLEARLY on purpose! :lol:

Fixed. ;)

I fixed some things for sections 1~3, as well. Damn, was that annoying... Still have some items that are bugging me on the laundry list, but if I agonize solely over those, I won't get much done. The next few sections look rather daunting, Gendo's Ambitions and HIP especially, considering the horrific nature of the subject matter. Ugh, this is going to hurt...

Your work is exceptional Reichu. I eagerly await the arrival of future translations. As much as you might not intend this as a "comming of the second Eva", I'm afraid that judging by this thread's heavy traffic many readers of these forums are taking it to be. I am just using these translations as a guide to clarify some of the more ambigious aspects of the the original series. It's proving thought provoking if nothing more.

Indeed, I'm not sure where this "second coming of Eva" -- as DatDude put it -- bit came from, myself. As for your stance, I couldn't have put it much better. Most of this information is not telling us anything "new", simply spelling out in plain words that which has been in the show all along -- oftentimes deeply imbedded, but there for anyone willing to look.

Are we to assume then, that Yui's father in Selee

Both of her parents could be in Seele, based on the way the organization works... Actually, because of the way Japanese works, they could be saying that she is the daughter of "influential memberS". To pluralize or not to pluralize?

But, yeah, Seele is mostly a "man's club". Secret religious brotherhoods, and yadda yadda... so if one of the Ikari parents were going to be singled out for Seele Bigwig-dom, it would probably be Daddy. I'm just playing devil's advocate.

a. Was dead by the time the show took place.
b. Didn't care too much about his daughter.
c. Wasn't one of the "Big Twelve" Selee members (how many more people are in Selee besides these 12 anyways?)

Seele is a worldwide organization, and there are enough of them to pull all of the strings -- so, I have no idea. Probably a lot more than 12.

Nothing is ever mentioned about the doings of Ikari Sr., so, aside from the status he bestowed onto Yui, he's apparently another of those Random Nobodies who don't really matter. That he's out of the picture by the time the 21st Century rolls around seems like the most plausible scenario to me.

Because none of the twelve monoliths ever mentioned anything to Gendo, Kozo, Ritsuko, Kawrou, or anyone else about his daughter being "killed" (if that's the term I should use).

(Kaworu was talking to fifteen monoliths.)

There is always the possibility that Yui's father is completely devoted to Selee's goals, and views Yui's "death" as a nescesary sacrifice.

Yui's "death" is something she arranged for herself... although there are rather subtle intimations that she was on Seele's blacklist and scheduled to be bumped off at some point. (We get a lot of these "disposable brains" in NGE.) The conditions under which the CE was performed give me the impression that she was in a bit of a hurry -- not to say she wouldn't have eventually done it anyway.

[Seele08]

Both of her parents would be in Seele, based on the way the organization works... Actually, because of the way Japanese works, they could be saying that she is the daughter of "influential memberS". Perhaps pluralizing it is the better option?

So by this your're saying everyone's spouse in SEELE works there? Thats an awfully big leap to make from one example. I mean Misato's mother didn't work for SEELE, nor do we have any real proof that Asuka's father worked there either.

[Reichu]

So by this your're saying everyone's spouse in SEELE works there?

By that, I was being a "devil's advocate". The language specifies neither number nor sex of said parent(s). (I did make one change, tho.)

[rockthing]

My interpretation of (hajime kara) was the same as yours.
It can be thought of as another way of saying (saisho kara).
The latter being more directly 'From the start' as opposed to
'From the beginning'. In my mind these are equivilent.
I assumed that 'the beginning' or 'start' is the first attack on Tokyo3
by the Angels.
Was there a Nerv Headquarters in Hakone at the time of Second Impact?
I was assuming, no. So I don't think that should be considered 'the start'.
Again, my strength here is with the language, not necessarily the Eva-world timeline.

[RyoTD]

Intresting find, to say the least. I think that it all makes a great deal of sense, and have yet to see something that is actually contradicted by the anime itself. Of course, I haven't watched it in a while, but still...

Thumbs up, Reich. :thumbsup:

[Scutilla]

Most interesting tidbit I've seen in the new stuff is 6-D: "The Angels are all heading for Nerv H.Q. so that they can make contact with Lilith, the white giant in Terminal Dogma. They were aiming for her from the start, not Adam." Well, that leaves no ambiguity as to what the angels are after- even ol' Gaghy, who a lot of people think was after Adam or Eva-02.

[Soluzar]

[The Comittee members] were from the UK, the USA, Russia, and France. These countries also make up the Big Four, which seems to date SEELE...since some of those countries haven't even existed four even hundreds of years, not to mention the Big Four didn't come about till the end of WWII.

Pffft! The leaders of SEELE could change to reflect the changing state of the world, though. Since those countries, plus Germany as represented by your own beloved Keel are among the world leaders, their representatives rise to the forefront of SEELE. Organisations do change and grow with time. They aren't all like the United Nations, with their immutable permanent Security Council members.

[Reichu]

Most interesting tidbit I've seen in the new stuff is 6-D: "The Angels are all heading for Nerv H.Q. so that they can make contact with Lilith, the white giant in Terminal Dogma. They were aiming for her from the start, not Adam." Well, that leaves no ambiguity as to what the angels are after- even ol' Gaghy, who a lot of people think was after Adam or Eva-02.

This passage is a bit precarious. Remember not to let your interpretation of whatever this stuff says (or whatever the current version of the translation says ;) ) overrule what is directly observable in the show itself... Gaghiel, for example, was definitely "combing" the Pacific Fleet for Adam; he simply may have not headed out, upon hatching, knowing that he'd get such an opportunity.

There's more on the Angels' motives later, too.

[Seele08]

I was going to say, Gagheil was definetly after Adam, that's what through off SEELE's predictions, they didn't know Kaji had stolen the Adam embryo at that point.

[Scutilla]

Gaghiel, for example, was definitely "combing" the Pacific Fleet for Adam; he simply may have not headed out, upon hatching, knowing that he'd get such an opportunity.
Really? I seem to remember someone arguing at some point that their motives were all consistant, and the only reason Gaghiel didn't attack Tokyo-3 was because they happened to run into him on the way there. The idea that he was deliberately trying to get Adam makes more since though.

Ah well, we'll wait and see what this "more on the Angels' motives" has to say.

[Reichu]

Really? I seem to remember someone arguing at some point that their motives were all consistant

Wasn't me. :P

and the only reason Gaghiel didn't attack Tokyo-3 was because they happened to run into him on the way there. The idea that he was deliberately trying to get Adam makes more sense though.

That certainly seems to be heavily intimated in #08... There wasn't anything bounding Gaghiel to an attack on the Pacific Fleet. They couldn't do diddly-squat to him (save for the direct assault on his most precious part). Why would he linger if he wasn't interested in something there...?

Ah well, we'll wait and see what this "more on the Angels' motives" has to say.

Yes. One thing I'm noticing about these files is that -- not unlike the show itself... -- they often operate on various levels of "truth". Take the Gendo stuff, for example: It merely says that he married Yui to get into Seele, but the "reunion with Yui" bit in another file makes it clear that there was more going on between them than that. (Nothing we didn't already know, though.) Even though its content has been hyped as "answers", the Classified Information is, I think, just as impish as NGE.

Additionally, although we're given "breaks" in certain areas, the adage "The more you know, the more you realize you don't know" ought to be rather relevant, when all is said and done.

[Ornette]

I also noticed when going through the material that there were several places where the first 2 sections (public knowledge and generally accepted info) contradicted "Confidential" or "In-Depth" information in other parts. The first is a given since it's stuff released to the public, but the "Generally Accepted Information" seems to be stuff that the people not in-the-know believe (like Kaji thinking Lilith was Adam kind of stuff).

[Reichu]

I also noticed when going through the material that there were several places where the first 2 sections (public knowledge and generally accepted info) contradicted "Confidential" or "In-Depth" information in other parts. The first is a given since it's stuff released to the public, but the "Generally Accepted Information" seems to be stuff that the people not in-the-know believe (like Kaji thinking Lilith was Adam kind of stuff).

Yes, quite curious. As far as I know, the game plays in roughly "series order", so perhaps the files are unlocked in a roughly corresponding manner. Hopefully that made sense. -_-;

And another bit of fun for tonight. Ugh, that one smarts... :rubs language-processing regions of brain: Random screencap thrown in for gratuitous decorative purposes. But mostly to make this post appear longer than it really is.

*****

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C001_c_mid.jpg

8. Gendo's Ambitions

A. Publicly Released Information

As commander in chief of Special Agency Nerv, his objective is to prevent Third Impact by eliminating the Angels.

B. Generally Recognized Information

He is focused on carrying both the eradication of the Angels and the Human Instrumentality Project through to their completion.

C. Confidential Information

While Gendo maintains the pretense of striving for the Path to Divinity, his actual goal is to be reunited with the deceased Yui. Because this has been the only thing on his mind, Gendo invests a great deal of concern into EVA-01, through whom he is attempting to open up the Path.

D. In-Depth Information

Seele have been making preparations for a divinity handled as they see fit. Gendo, opposingly, has been forwarding his own plans in the shadows, with the aim of creating his personal vision of divinity. By fusing with the partially-restored remnant of Adam, and then via fusion with Rei (i.e., Lilith), Gendo hopes to achieve fusion with EVA-01 (reunion with Yui).

Footnotes for 8

8-C. "Path to Divinity" is my new "official translation" for kami e no michi, that thing that Gendo mentions to Fuyutsuki in #21, "which no one has ever achieved!" Sounds much better, IMO, than "path to godhood" – eewww – and it seems to involve the same degree of vaguery as the Japanese original.

8-D: Gendo is attempting to create kami. (Dear gawd, not that thing again.) I used "divinity" again because it is nice and vague -- although the current wording is somewhat dodgy. He could potentially be trying to create a "god", or even "gods". No specification is provided.

Also, there must be a more aesthetic alternative to using "fusing"/"fusion" three times in the same sentence... :shakes fist at that yuugou:

Speaking of that sentence, the Rei-Lilith part is actually phrased as bluntly as "Rei = Lilith". (As before, the "=" indicates an equivalent relationship between the two components.) Not like this is news or anything.

[Seele08]

From what this says it would seem Gendo wanted to become god himself. I don't blame SEELE for wanting him dead.

[kaos]

Okay... Wait a second here... If Lilith and Adam are "gods", does this mean that "god/divinity" is equal to SoL? And if so, does this mean that Gendou wanted to be part of Yui's SoL-ness? (Yes, I just made that word up. :huh: ..)

[Reichu]

Okay... Wait a second here... If Lilith and Adam are "gods", does this mean that "god/divinity" is equal to SoL? And if so, does this mean that Gendou wanted to be part of Yui's SoL-ness? (Yes, I just made that word up. :huh: ..)

Well, one thing I recently sat up and noticed: the Apostles qualify as kami ("gods"), too. The FULL OP "music video" included on the "TEST TYPE" DVD (used to promote the Renewal of Evangelion DVDs before their initial release) seems to be primarily Masayuki's doing, and it is interspersed with captions -- white text on black screens -- that Anno contributed to. The segment for the Apostles bears the caption, "Kuzureta kamigami", or, uh, "something-gods".* (We actually get a plural this time.)

* Gods that collapsed / crumbled? Felled / demolished gods? Slain gods, perhaps? I need to ask around about how to translate this one, since the only definitions I could find suck and I don't want to make any assumptions...

From what this says it would seem Gendo wanted to become god himself. I don't blame SEELE for wanting him dead.

It seems to only say that he wants to achieve "reunion with Yui", which involves creating "divinity" different from what Seele has in mind. The question is, what?

[Reichu]

PROGRESS REPORT

Boy, conversation sure died fast... Is everybody just waiting for the rest, or somethin'?

I would have gotten more up by now*, but these next sections are proving rather difficult for me. The NGE2 CI is a big step up in difficulty from what I normally do, so a lot of the time I spend working on it involves "gorging on resources, furrowing brow in concentration and gears slowly turning inside cranium until either a lightbulb goes off or I realize I need to get human help". And I've only got two direct consultants at the moment: rockthing, along with Barrett @ the AnimeLyrics forum -- the only person there taking the time to assist me, bless ver metabiological essence -- who both have less time for this insanity than I do.

Things with hopefully smooth out once I finish slogging through this difficult middle section. I already did a lot of work on the stuff towards the end -- before I started the "official translation" -- but you still have to wait for those, since we're doing this in order!

* The more quickly this pain ends, the more overjoyed Reichu shall be.

[Scutilla]

Boy, conversation sure died fast... Is everybody just waiting for the rest, or somethin'?
Something like that... just waiting to drool over the juicier bits (like the Angels and their relatives). The info on Gendo and Yui is interesting, but there's not too much stuff that's particularly ground-breaking. But then, maybe I'm just holding my expectations too high for the document in general.

[OMF]

Diminished Gods perhaps? Or simply leser ones?

In any case, the use of "kami" in reference to the angels does support a Greek Pantheon idea of gods and divinity, rather than a monotheistic one.

[Mr. Tines]

When discussing Transcended Beings, theological terms get appealed to in western SF as well (like the "gods" in Ken McLeod's Engines of Light trilogy). The best in the way of a scrupulously neutral term that I've seen is to call such entities "Powers" (as per Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep).

The latter is recommended reading for getting into the conceptual space for the Instrumentality-related parts of NGE.

[Reichu]

In any case, the use of "kami" in reference to the angels does support a Greek Pantheon idea of gods and divinity, rather than a monotheistic one.

In-series, you mean? I wonder if it has more to do with the fact that Seele went batsh!t crazy after they discovered such "Powers" actually existed... (Er, uh, more on that later -- not that I didn't see in coming far in advance with my mystical oracular powers. </irony>)

When discussing Transcended Beings, theological terms get appealed to in western SF as well (like the "gods" in Ken McLeod's Engines of Light trilogy). The best in the way of a scrupulously neutral term that I've seen is to call such entities "Powers" (as per Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep).

"Divinity" works pretty well for me when kami is being used vaguely, i.e., not distinctly referencing an actual entity (or entities); it's got the religious connotations that "Transcended Being" and "Power" don't, so that makes it more appropriate in-context, methinks. :cough:Seele:cough:

I'm not going to come to any conclusions about that caption until I get "advice". But, incidentally, it finally occurred to me to, you know, look up the kanji in my old, wretchedly beat-up copy of Nelson's The Modern Reader's Japanese-English Character Dictionary (a classic work, I might add). This thing has some of the more obscure stuff that's rarely in the online resources -- and, behold! The version of kuzureru from the FULL OP caption is there, and we get somewhat more specific (to that kanji) definitions: "decline; decay; fester". (And there are some compounds formed with 頽
that translate to "decadence/decline; deterioration, degeneration, corruption, ruin". WTF? What are they trying to say about Adam's kids here?

But, like I said... I'm not going to leap to any conclusions at the moment.

Another bizarre detail in the FULL OP that I randomly feel like mentioning now (to distract you guys from the Lag, I suppose ;) ) is how they describe this:

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-24/24_C303_b_med.jpg (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-24/24_C303_b_big.jpg)

Uragiri no hohoemi: Smile of betrayal/treachery (or treacherous smile). Hen na koto, kore wa... Er, I mean, rather peculiar a thing this is.

Marshmallow Girl seems to agree.

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-24/24_C302_npc_med.jpg (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-24/24_C302_npc_big.jpg)

(Note the Mr. Spock eyebrow. "Highly illogical lifeform, Captain...")

And, on a totally unrelated note... :goes to scream at the "HIP" section:

[Mr. sickVisionz]

LOL @ the people doubting this. You seriously think that the creator of Neon Genesis Evangelion, Hideaki Anno, doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to Neon Genesis Evangelion?

[Soluzar]

LOL @ the people doubting this. You seriously think that the creator of Neon Genesis Evangelion, Hideaki Anno, doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to Neon Genesis Evangelion?

Actually the people doubting it have certain other concerns:

1) Did Anno really write this? What proof have we

2) Was it written at a point when the series had concluded, and all the salient points had been finalised? Things do change during the course of production.

3) Was it recorded accurately by the developers of the game? Did they take liberties?

4) Do these "answers" really explain anything, or do they just create further questions?

5) Can sources external to an anime, such as this game be considered to be as important as the anime itself?

6) I would be remiss if I did not point out the possibility of errors in transcription or translation.

[HeWhoPostsStuff]

For some reason I felt like addressing these, hopefully I don't blurt out too many blaring inaccuracies...

1) Did Anno really write this?
Don't know if he "directly" wrote anything, but IIRC Gainax "approved" the game, for whatever that's worth...Addressed further in my response to question 3...

2) Was it written at a point when the series had concluded, and all the salient points had been finalised? Things do change during the course of production.
Offhand I'd assume so, since EoE was out for a bit before this game came out, and the TV series had ended a ways before that...anyone have any hard evidence for exactly how long they'd been working on this thing?

3) Was it recorded accurately by the developers of the game? Did they take liberties?
Somewhat off-topic, I was a bit surprised to find that Alfa System, developer of the Shikigami no Shiro series of old-school shooters, was the developer for this thing...in any event, according to this old article (http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/action/evangelion2shinseikievangelions/news.html?sid=6073734&mode=recent), Anno was at least somewhat involved (mainly with the AI, according to this). Also, the relevant issue of Newtype says that Alfa apparently interviewed Anno for over 10 hours in order to try to make things accurate.

4) Do these "answers" really explain anything, or do they just create further questions?
Even if the latter is the case, it won't be much different than most anything we've already got to work with, heh heh.

5) Can sources external to an anime, such as this game be considered to be as important as the anime itself?
AS important, no, I'd say that's pretty obvious. In all honesty, though, I can't help but wonder if a lot of this stuff exists only because the fans demand it: heck, if people weren't banging on Gainax's doors saying "explain this to us! we hafta know what's going on!" (I can only assume that if some of us Westerners are concerned enough about it to put this sort of effort into finding stuff out, the Japanese fans with "direct" access to Gainax must have some among them who feel the same way), would Gainax have even bothered putting this sort of stuff out to "fill in the blanks" if no one was that bothered by whatever gaps there were in the original product?

In any event, no, it's not as important as the anime itself (I seriously doubt anyone would argue that) but I myself tend to view it much as I view the manga: if it addresses something not addressed in the anime, and doesn't blatantly contradict something stated/demonstrated in the anime, I'm willing to view it as "true" or at least "possibly true" unless something else comes to light which disproves it.

6) I would be remiss if I did not point out the possibility of errors in transcription or translation.
Always a possibility, but if nothing else methinks Reichu is pretty careful about stuff like this, heh heh.

[Soluzar]

For some reason I felt like addressing these, hopefully I don't blurt out too many blaring inaccuracies...

Actually, Stuffman, you seem to have produced a masterful summary of the topic of the authenticity of these documents. I might point out for the sake of clarity that those were not my own questions, they were the questions that I might imagine a skeptic having. Personally, I don't feel that the information is likely to be innacurate or wrong, since I've been made well aware, in the distant past, of the provenance of these documents by Reichu. There are, however, still unanswered question which you were kind enough to point out.

[HeWhoPostsStuff]

Heh, you're too kind Biscuit. I'm rather infamous round these parts for my superhuman ability to miss facts and whatnot which were brought to light and discussed to heck ages ago, and make posts which, in turn, bring to light said ability. But yeah, I hope this is of some help to somebody, anyways.

[Soluzar]

Heh, you're too kind Biscuit. I'm rather infamous round these parts for my superhuman ability to miss facts and whatnot which were brought to light and discussed to heck ages ago, and make posts which, in turn, bring to light said ability. But yeah, I hope this is of some help to somebody, anyways.

You're actually infamous partly for your ability to underestimater yourself. My own infamy is far worse than your own, I assure you. ;)

[Reichu]

Always a possibility, but if nothing else methinks Reichu is pretty careful about stuff like this, heh heh.

Yes, I do try to be careful, and you can always ask me, "How the hell did you get this?" if something sounds fishy. I also plan to explain everything that's ambiguous, so you can come to your own conclusions, and when I myself am uncertain about something. That's one problem I have with most translations -- there is usually no explanation, just one, inflexible interpretation.

But I sincerely doubt that any of this was just made up for the game, or by the game's creators. It appears to be 100% genuine, and a lot of our extrapolations -- i.e., any ideas we've cooked up based on the show, but never directly stated within -- have been "mystically" emerging from the kanji and kana. With other tidbits, like the one about Kyoko, you can look at the show, and go, "... Oh."

And I think that's the point. You don't have to trust this data blindly unless it's one of those things that NGE is completely vague about. So, if you're skeptical, pop in the show and see if this stuff is actually in there. You might be surprised at where it goes -- because, ultimately, sub-primary canon like the "Classified Information" will only give you hints. You need the show if you want the solution.

[Insidious Roden]

Yes, I do try to be careful, and you can always ask me, "How the hell did you get this?" if something sounds fishy. I also plan to explain everything that's ambiguous, so you can come to your own conclusions, and when I myself am uncertain about something. That's one problem I have with most translations -- there is usually no explanation, just one, inflexible interpretation.

But I sincerely doubt that any of this was just made up for the game, or by the game's creators. It appears to be 100% genuine, and a lot of our extrapolations -- i.e., any ideas we've cooked up based on the show, but never directly stated within -- have been "mystically" emerging from the kanji and kana. With other tidbits, like the one about Kyoko, you can look at the show, and go, "... Oh."

And I think that's the point. You don't have to trust this data blindly unless it's one of those things that NGE is completely vague about. So, if you're skeptical, pop in the show and see if this stuff is actually in there. You might be surprised at where it goes -- because, ultimately, sub-primary canon like the "Classified Information" will only give you hints. You need the show if you want the solution.

LOL Well said. Now, I'm curious. How far along are you with the translations to the next part?

[Reichu]

LOL Well said. Now, I'm curious. How far along are you with the translations to the next part?

See Post #63.

I know... I have to grit my teeth and slog through it until it's over, no matter how painful.

Well, the game came out late in 2003... so what's another week or two?

I'm going to have to bombard rockthing with another e-mail and do some more reconnaissance work for Nihongo-savvy peeps -- you can never have too many -- to bother with my questions. "You don't have to translate this for me! Just help me! I can't find a definition for this verb that makes sense in-context! What the hell is this 'sono-whatzit' referring to? How does this phrase fit grammatically into the rest of the sentence (which I, otherwise, have more or less figured out)? Ugh, this translation sounds way too dodgy to be right! Please! Help me...! Don't abandon me!" :throws chairs:

[rockthing]

Well, one thing I recently sat up and noticed: the Apostles qualify as kami ("gods"), too. The FULL OP "music video" included on the "TEST TYPE" DVD (used to promote the Renewal of Evangelion DVDs before their initial release) seems to be primarily Masayuki's doing, and it is interspersed with captions -- white text on black screens -- that Anno contributed to. The segment for the Apostles bears the caption, "Kuzureta kamigami", or, uh, "something-gods".* (We actually get a plural this time.)

* Gods that collapsed / crumbled? Felled / demolished gods? Slain gods, perhaps? I need to ask around about how to translate this one, since the only definitions I could find suck and I don't want to make any assumptions...



It seems to only say that he wants to achieve "reunion with Yui", which involves creating "divinity" different from what Seele has in mind. The question is, what?
I don't think I've seen that video.
I think it could be a reference to 'fallen angels'.
That's kind of a stab in the dark, but
I've always been told that Anno insisted on the 'Apostle'
being called Angels in the subs/dubs.

Just FYI, not relating directly to this issue,
'kuzureru' can be used to say that someone's face
'broke' into laughter... according to my Casio SR-M4000
electronic dictionary, at least. ;)

When I went over the Japanese text, I really struggled with
the word 'kami' as well.
I don't think it is used in the same sense as the
Christo-centric West would associate to the word god.
With or without the capital 'g'. It's just natural.
In traditional Japanese thought (common thought, not
necessarily 'philosophical thought' as such) kami is in
everything. I find it to be more akin to the 'Seed of Life',
which you should be coming to pretty soon as you come
upon the part about The First Ancestral Race.
You might even think of it as the strong nuclear force
which (as Master Yoda ... a real Japanese surname...
so wisely put it) surrounds us and binds us.
It could even be thought of as the AT Field that holds our
souls inside and maintains our physical structure.
(sorry, Reich, I'm not spoiling things am I?)

However, Evangelion has a huge dose of
Western Mysticism so I don't know how much an
unreasonalby long post on Japanese spiritualism is
going to go in getting this 'kami' thing solved... :ph34r: -_-;

At any rate, 'kami' is never plural in the NGE doc, so...

From what I read of the doc, you guys are pretty
amazing sleuths.
This thing is going to confirm a lot of 'crazy' theories
that have been discussed on the board, I think.
Then you just have to decide. Was it a coincidence?

[Reichu]

I don't think I've seen that video.

Perhaps I can make it available once this NGE2 stuff is over, along with translations of the captions. I think this video contains some important clues in its own right.

I think it could be a reference to 'fallen angels'.

Is "fallen", in that sense, a valid translation of the kuzureta? Perhaps you could ask your associates about this one when you have a chance, as well?

I've always been told that Anno insisted on the 'Apostle'
being called Angels in the subs/dubs.

Oh, he did. It's just that the term "Angel" is horribly ambiguous in NGE, as it can refer to either (A) Adam's children (the lineup destroyed by Nerv) or (B) the messengers of humanity ultimately derived from the First Ancestral Race, who, on Earth, have either the Fruit of Life, the Fruit of Knowledge, or both. The second definition appears to be the "true" one, and is rather cryptically imparted when Misato tells us that our own species is the 18th Angel.

Without a term that unambiguously refers to Adam's children, I proposed "Apostle", since, as the "unused" direct translation of shito, it seemed like the most straightforward option. Some of us use it, some of us don't... I think the precision gained by having two different words (Angel for "FAR messenger" and Apostle for "child of Adam") benefits geek chatter, but that's just me...

Of course, it wouldn't be used in translations of official materials, since it's just a fanon term. (But, incidentally, before he chose shito/Angels, Anno was using "Apostulos".)

When I went over the Japanese text, I really struggled with
the word 'kami' as well.
I don't think it is used in the same sense as the
Christo-centric West would associate to the word god. <snip>

As I mentioned earlier, it appears to be associated heavily with Seele and their own belief structure, which ultimately originates, it would seem, with the Essenes brotherhood. They name all of the wonky stuff they find after elements of their faith, and their nature as a truly bizarre religious sect comes to the fore in EoE. References to kami originally come from them (#21, I think, re: what they don't want Shogouki to become). Context, I think, establishes the way translation should be handled -- i.e., we're not talking the Shinto version here.

But the FAR (you didn't spoil anything -- they're one of the first things I looked at when I found the doc ;) ) are probably a different story. We've only got two individuals originally from their race to work with, but... a little can be a lot.

At any rate, 'kami' is never plural in the NGE doc, so...

Japanese does love its ambiguity, doesn't it? I wouldn't discount the possibility that this may have been done on purpose.

But, then, I wasn't of the impression that pluralization was widely utilized anyway. (Kamigami -- "gods" -- doesn't show up in the CI, but, then, hitobito -- plural of "person" = "people" -- only shows up once. Definitions are for other peeps, not you. :wink: ) How DO the Japanese decide when they are going to pluralize words or not?

From what I read of the doc, you guys are pretty amazing sleuths.
This thing is going to confirm a lot of 'crazy' theories that have been discussed on the board, I think.
Then you just have to decide. Was it a coincidence?

Given the fact that it was intentionally designed as a puzzle for hard-core geeks -- no, I would imagine not.

I'll be sending you an e-mail soon.

[Scutilla]

Perhaps I can make it available once this NGE2 stuff is over, along with translations of the captions. I think this video contains some important clues in its own right.
I have a copy if it- if I can get ahold of a free file-hosting service I'll toss it up and post a link here.

I know you've said that the next couple sections are eating your brain, but... any idea when we'll get to see them? We want more! :P

[Soluzar]

I have a copy if it- if I can get ahold of a free file-hosting service I'll toss it up and post a link here.

How big is it? I have copy somewhere lying around, but I'm too idle to check...

[rockthing]

<snip>
Is "fallen", in that sense, a valid translation of the kuzureta? Perhaps you could ask your associates about this one when you have a chance, as well?
I will ask.
<sarcastic voice>My Casio SR-M4000 </sarcastic voice>
didn't offer that as a specific example,
it was just a kind of flash as I was looking at the definitions.


Oh, he did. It's just that the term "Angel" is horribly ambiguous in NGE, as it can refer to either (A) Adam's children (the lineup destroyed by Nerv) or (B) the messengers of humanity ultimately derived from the First Ancestral Race, who, on Earth, have either the Fruit of Life, the Fruit of Knowledge, or both. The second definition appears to be the "true" one, and is rather cryptically imparted when Misato tells us that our own species is the 18th Angel.

Without a term that unambiguously refers to Adam's children, I proposed "Apostle", since, as the "unused" direct translation of shito, it seemed like the most straightforward option. Some of us use it, some of us don't... I think the precision gained by having two different words (Angel for "FAR messenger" and Apostle for "child of Adam") benefits geek chatter, but that's just me...

Of course, it wouldn't be used in translations of official materials, since it's just a fanon term. (But, incidentally, before he chose shito/Angels, Anno was using "Apostulos".)

Did Not Know That. :bow:


As I mentioned earlier, it appears to be associated heavily with Seele and their own belief structure, which ultimately originates, it would seem, with the Essenes brotherhood. They name all of the wonky stuff they find after elements of their faith, and their nature as a truly bizarre religious sect comes to the fore in EoE. References to kami originally come from them (#21, I think, re: what they don't want Shogouki to become). Context, I think, establishes the way translation should be handled -- i.e., we're not talking the Shinto version here.

But the FAR (you didn't spoil anything -- they're one of the first things I looked at when I found the doc ;) ) are probably a different story. We've only got two individuals originally from their race to work with, but... a little can be a lot.

True, the Essenses brotherhood is western in origin
and would be interested in Yaweh. Though, it's been a
while since I read anything about them. The facts didn't
stick very well the first time through... I found
an interesting site about the 'real' Dead Sea Scrolls
a few months back, Autumn, perhaps, when Ornette
was first getting indoctrinated into Eva. ;)

This issue is confusing due to the fact that the language
of the creator (...er.. director... he isn't a god yet, is he?)
is quite far removed philosophcally from the subject he is
exploring. It is easy (and perhaps useful?) to consider
his cultural perspective when he approaches western
mysticism.
Some Japanese folks will go so far as to say that a
western mind can never understand kami and that a
Japanese mind can never understand monotheism.

Personally I'd like to think this is a very extreme view, but
the obstacles that Anno would have to wrap his head
around to get an understanding of western mysticism
were/are probably similar to us trying to figure out what
this 'kami' thing is all about....
I dont' know, maybe it doesn't work the other way round...
(rambling again)


Japanese does love its ambiguity, doesn't it? I wouldn't discount the possibility that this may have been done on purpose.

But, then, I wasn't of the impression that pluralization was widely utilized anyway. (Kamigami -- "gods" -- doesn't show up in the CI, but, then, hitobito -- plural of "person" = "people" -- only shows up once. Definitions are for other peeps, not you. :wink: ) How DO the Japanese decide when they are going to pluralize words or not?
The strong belief in cultural homogenity leads to the idea
that one and all are the same. When words are doubled
like this, it is often more out of respect, I have found.
The first time I ever encountered it was when writing
credits for a recording. At that time I was told that it was
more honorific to write 'katagata' than saying "naninani no 'mina-sama'" ('naninani' is just a way to say 'something something' or 'blahblah')
Usually 'hito' can be used to mean one person or
people in general without saying 'hitobito'
'hitobito' is very rarely used in everyday conversation.
'kamigami'.... hmmm.... again, I'll ask....
the delays in asking have more to do with the
answerer's condition than my time....
but I forget sometimes :redface:


I'll be sending you an e-mail soon.
I'll hold you to it! :P

[Reichu]

This issue is confusing due to the fact that the language
of the creator (...er.. director... he isn't a god yet, is he?)

Naw, just another, flawed human being. ;) How else could he make a show like NGE?

Personally I'd like to think this is a very extreme view, but
the obstacles that Anno would have to wrap his head
around to get an understanding of western mysticism
were/are probably similar to us trying to figure out what
this 'kami' thing is all about....

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure what the kami stuff is about, either, but, then, I'm pretty disconnected from all religion; I can only "understand" it in theory. But, as it goes, Shinto makes more sense to me than the Western stuff, although maybe that's not quite what you were referring to. ;)

In any case, while NGE's status as an Eastern product is definitely relevant, I, again, don't think we are dealing with Shinto kami here, but a corruption of Seele's original idea of "God", i.e., JHWH. They're apparently still lugging around at least some vestige of this specific concept, since they represent themselves with the "Seven Eyes of God" (http://www.evacommentary.org/op/OP_C044_big.jpg). They even went so far as to place these seven eyes upon the face of the "god" from which our humanity ultimately originated.

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C084_mid.jpg

(Does that mean that JHWH's role as He the Creator has been supplanted by a massive marshmallow woman Seele decided to name after the primordial woman who defied JHWH and ran off to get down with the demons? Coopting Adam's name for an egg-laying Mother-Goddess doesn't seem quite so bizarre, in comparison. Or maybe it's just me.)

It also finally consciously registered just what the hell this kami e no michi -- which is vague enough in the show itself that "Path to Divinity" seems the best option -- is referring to, from Seele's POV...

OP, C-004(b) (http://www.evacommentary.org/op/op_1.html#cut004b)

http://www.evacommentary.org/op/OP_C004b_e.jpg http://www.evacommentary.org/op/OP_C004b_f.jpg http://www.evacommentary.org/op/OP_C004b_g.jpg

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C068_b_mid.jpg (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C068_b_big.jpg)

Yet another occurence of "Judaeo-Christian stuff + FAR goodies = WTF are these old geezers smoking?!?". Keel's having his flying monkeys "draw" the Sephirotic Tree of Life, a central element of Kabbalism, in the sky above Hakone using their compounded ATFs, as some kind of ceremonial element. (Somehow, I don't think doing this is actually required to get results...)

In its original context, IIRC the SToL represents... well, I suppose you could call it the path to God.

DUM da DUMMmm!

Following the Sephirotic Tree of Life (don't ask me how; that's what they sell those Kabbalah manuals for), one can bridge Earth (at the Tree's crown; it's inverted) and Heaven (at the Tree's roots) and be reunited with JHWH. Or something like that. It's late.

But, at any rate, Seele, by rather creatively perverting their religion, manage to make this "evolution of humanity via 'complementation'" stuff a lot more convoluted than it probably needs to be. I wonder what those scrolls really say?

"If you're interested in destroying all physical life on your homeworld and transforming your entire species into a pure, transcendent, spiritual entity, please turn to page 52. (But, preferably, you'll at least get everybody's permission first.) For an alternate method of becoming less crappy than you currently are -- i.e., the scenario Gendo and his buddies prefer, for which the show won't give you a straightforward explanation -- please turn to page 127. For instructions on creating a new Seed through the selfless sacrifice of one of your mothers, and thereby fulfilling your obligation to us -- as your ancestors and all -- once she does her job, please turn to page 166.

"Also, for your perusal, we've included complete details on the sexuality and reproduction of our own species –- including abundant pictures – on page 222. This will include a thorough exploration of nuclear erogeny, i.e., the art of extracting pleasure from that most wonderful of organs. If you happen to be a Messenger lacking this piece of anatomy... well, it sucks to be you, doesn't it?"

Um... What were we talking about again? Oh yeah. Rockthing. E-mail. I sent. To you.

Yes. ^_^

I know you've said that the next couple sections are eating your brain, but... any idea when we'll get to see them? We want more!

You do? Why on Earth would that be...?

Might as well extract one of those brainworms before I lose any more of my grey matter.

:pulls it out through her nose with a pair of tweezers:

I take no responsibility for any possible infestations of Engrish at this time. Read at your own risk.

9. The History of Nerv

A. Publicly Released Information

A special affairs agency under the direct supervision of the United Nations, formed in the year 2010. Its goals are the investigation, research, and annihilation of the objects known as Angels.

B. Generally Recognized Information

Nerv is an executive body that embodies Seele's objectives and is their most important organization. Unlike Gehirn in its time, Nerv is semi-public.

As a result of Second Impact, Seele underwent a rather radical transformation and began to vehemently drive their plans forward. Somehow, the miracle of divinity actually existed, and Adam, a being who was essentially a god incarnate, was also real.

C. Confidential Information

The discovery of Adam created a firm conviction and propelled Seele forward. Several projects were simultaneously enacted around the time of Second Impact (both before and after): The excavation of the Black Moon (i.e., Hakone) and the discovery of Lilith; the founding of the Artificial Evolution Laboratory and the subsequent formulation of Gehirn; the dissemination of the Human Limitation Theory; the establishment of the Human Instrumentality Committee; and the development of a world led by the United Nations, who would keep vigil over the battles with the Angels.

Additionally, there is the plan to revive Adam, Project E. (In the Bible, the one made from Adam's rib was called Eva.) The Evas are being undertaken as a series, something still currently underway.

D. In-Depth Information

The Human Instrumentality Committee is, fundamentally, nothing but a small council within the United Nations. However, as a subordinate body of Seele, it effectively has the world in the palm of its hand.

This committee was established on the basis of the Human Limitation Theory. As it was charged with the study of how to surmount the underlying problem, the committee was allowed to have an independent research agency: the Artificial Evolution Laboratory.

The Artificial Evolution Laboratory came to possess the remnants of Adam, at which point it experienced intervention by the more powerful Seele. They tightened the structural framework and transformed it into the secret agency Gehirn, an auxilliary institution under their jurisdiction. Gehirn was a preparatory organization and became the foundation of its successor, Nerv. And, then, Nerv itself was created.

Footnotes for 9

9-B: What I put as "essentially a god incarnate" (thanks for the wording, rockthing!) seems to be something along the lines of, "the closest to a god (in the flesh) we're ever going to get, so we'll just call Adam a 'god' and be done with it". ;) But literally, it's something so hideous I won't speak of it unless asked.

[Ornette]

I take no responsibility for any possible infestations of Engrish at this time. Read at your own risk.
That looks pretty good to me.

"Essentially a god incarnate"
ha, I think that's what rockthing also translated it as.

[Vaikyuko]

Yay. Now to just wait until some of the favorite ones are translated.

[Reichu]

ha, I think that's what rockthing also translated it as.

Pretty much. I played around with some possibilities, and, ultimately, rockthing's seemed like the way to go. Except Adam became a god incarnate, since there are a lot of them in NGE. ;)

Yay. Now to just wait until some of the favorite ones are translated.

Boy, you people don't want much, do you? :lol:

Guess I'll go put a couple of hours in. I'm not even halfway through and I already want it to end... Good thing I already have a lot of the second half partially-processed (mostly "quasi-translations") from earlier. That ought to make things zip along later.

[Vaikyuko]

Actually, I don't -- I don't really care about many of these sections (though they are interesting to read). It's things like the Lance (yes, LANCE, DAMN YOU ALL), SEELE, etc that interest moi.

[Reichu]

(yes, LANCE, DAMN YOU ALL)

Don't damn us. Damn that Anno guy.

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m25/m25_C655_b.jpg http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m25/m25_C655_crop_text.jpg

;)

BTW: This section on HIP hurts the language-processing sectors of my brain so much that I want to cry.　Figures this one would be so cruel and unusual. (And there are SOOOOOOoooo many frustratingly vague references to kami, I want to strangle the Japanese language with my bare hands.) Expect a bit of a wait on this little *****...

[LuigiHann]

I think from now on I'll call it the "Big Ol' Pointed Stick" (BOPS) to avoid any confusion.

[Mr. Tines]

BTW: This section on HIP hurts the language-processing sectors of my brain so much that I want to cry.

I would be disappointed it it were otherwise. The concepts should be abstruse even in English (remembering your response to some of the Singularitarian sites I cited when I first joined in these discussions).

[Reichu]

I would be disappointed it it were otherwise. The concepts should be abstruse even in English (remembering your response to some of the Singularitarian sites I cited when I first joined in these discussions).

The problem is knowing how the hell to put it INTO English... If you're Japanese, or have some understanding of the language and how it works, you can freely read whatever you want into each frustratingly vague occurrence of kami. But, if you're reliant on someone to translate it into English (and not Engrish), some "interpretational decisions" must be made on the translator's part...

So I'm probably going to cook up "skewed versions" of the entries (that is, whenever I can't be as ambiguous as the original, I'll use something that makes 'more sense than anything else I can think of'), and then, in the notes, versions that leave kami intact (no articles, no inflection, no nothing) so you can theoretically use whatever option you want. Even though some are obviously better than others.

And I'm not obsessing over this kami crap for the sake of it. It really is that much of a headache. "Damn you, Anno! Couldn't you use more specific stuff, like "'Transcendent Metabiological Entity', or 'Giant Original Human with Uber-Powers', or 'Entity Born From the Former Who Can Metamorph Into Anything', or 'The Actual JHWH' (if JHWH Himself is actually still relevant, or just an 'ideal' or a 'symbol' to Seele), or whatever?"

[sheaman]

does this mention anywhere the weird burn on gendo's hand? i forget what episode it's in, but it's there for like a second.

[Shin-seiki]

does this mention anywhere the weird burn on gendo's hand? i forget what episode it's in, but it's there for like a second.
You mean this:
http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/9123/hands1lz.th.jpg (http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hands1lz.jpg)

Gendo had the Adam sample grafted onto his hand, where it would be most handy. That cut is in #24' (as he is talking to EVA_01, addressing her as "Yui"), and shows up in Death, too.

edit: I dunno if it comes up in the Classified Info; I kinda doubt that it would. Reichu hasn't translated it all yet...

[HeWhoPostsStuff]

does this mention anywhere the weird burn on gendo's hand? i forget what episode it's in, but it's there for like a second.
Or are you referring to the burn Shinji notices in one of the earlier episodes, as Gendo examines the fourth angel's core? IIRC that one is explained right after you see it...did you see the whole episode?

[Insidious Roden]

OK, at the risk of sounding like an idiotic newb... I'm gonna go out on a limb here and ask a question that has been bothering me as of late... What the bloody hell does IIRC mean?

[Shin-seiki]

^ "If I Remember/Recall Correctly" ^_^

[Reichu]

Gendo had the Adam sample grafted onto his hand, where it would be most handy.

http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/toothy.gif GAH HAH HAH! Get it? "Hand"? "Handy"?

http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/rimshot.gif

edit: I dunno if it comes up in the Classified Info; I kinda doubt that it would. Reichu hasn't translated it all yet...

Well, rockthing went through all of it. ;) I'm just making a second pass. ("Professor Clarkenstein. You're as fastidious as ever.")

So, no. Gendo's hands are nowhere in there.

I'll try to post something a little later. Though some rainchecks might be involved. <_<

[Reichu]

Crap -- did I say I was going to "post something a little later"? I actually meant, "I'm going to go distract you kids by posting more non-NGE2-related goodies, and then compile a list of trouble spots for Barrett @ AnimeLyrics and hope the poor guy responds promptly. And hope that rockthing e-mails me back soon, too."

[sheaman]

Or are you referring to the burn Shinji notices in one of the earlier episodes, as Gendo examines the fourth angel's core? IIRC that one is explained right after you see it...did you see the whole episode?

yeah, i saw every episode/movie, and what Shin-seiki posted was what i was wondering about. if that was explained in the tv show, well, i haven't watched the tv series in a while.

[drgenestarwind]

...if memory serves me right... none of us understood evangelion when we first watched it.

[LuigiHann]

Chuck Norris understood Evangelion the first time.
The only question he had at the end, was why they needed Evas to fight the Angels, when they could have simply called Chuck Norris.

[rockthing]

Reichu, sorry for being such a slacker,
Let me know if I didn't answer any of your questions adequately.

And,

nope, nothing about the burned hands or embryo grafting in the NGE2 docs.
I'm pretty sure I would have noticed that.
:P

[Seele08]

Chuck Norris understood Evangelion the first time.
The only question he had at the end, was why they needed Evas to fight the Angels, when they could have simply called Chuck Norris.

Yes but Mr. T pities the fool who calls Chuck Norris.

[Reichu]

:bump:

As a wise man once said, "Procrastination is like masturbation: You're only screwing yourself."

Well, actually, I heard that from one of my brother's rather creatively foul-mouthed friends, but who's checking?

In any case, I figured that I might as well grit my teeth and give you kids SOMEthing. As long as I tell you what the problems are, and there is some hope that they might eventually be corrected... everything will be alright.

Given the interpretational nightmares that some passages can pose, it is incredibly difficult to get aid from those unfamiliar with the show, since they essentially have no context except what little I can relate. And expecting any of these folks to "learn the show" just to give me slightly more reliable translation pointers is clearly not a realistic expectation. ;) So, I'll continue to "see what I can do"... (Yes, rockthing, that scenario includes you!)

We've had enough ado, so... let the nightmare begin.

10. Details of the Human Instrumentality Project

A. Publicly Released Information

Data unavailable.

B. Generally Recognized Information

Nerv's three big projects are Project E, the Adam Project, and the Human Instrumentality Project. Seele regards the latter as the one of the utmost importance.

C. Confidential Information

The Human Instrumentality Project is a plan aimed at divinity. The Evas are absolutely essential to Seele, for they are the sole key that can open the Path to Divinity. This is because they were copied from Adam, she who is nearest to a god.

As yet, the Evas are surely insufficient in number. However, as long as that part was somehow accomplished, people thought that they could procure gods, or, at least, entities very nearly so.

That is also Seele's gospel: opening the Path to Divinity by complementing the part that people are missing. If people gathered up the gods, what would happen? They thought that they could become a god themselves.

D. In-Depth Information

While the Angels were being engaged in battle, people were also making and advancing the plan for the path that leads to divinity.

The first step is the completion of Eva –- the body of a god and throne of a soul –- via the installation of an S2 Engine. The interfusion of souls follows. Afterwards, our final natural enemy, the Spear of Longinus security device, is annihilated. Thus, that which is nearly divine, or perhaps a god in and of itself, is brought to completion, and, with the Spear gone, cannot be destroyed by anyone.

Seele's intention for this man-made god is to guide the elite (themselves) to a nearly divine place.

Footnotes for 10

10-A: Why can't they all be this easy? :snicker:

10-B: The language in this entry is somewhat difficult to decipher, and most of the results I've seen seem somewhat "off". The translation I use here makes sense in-context and seems to work "within the words".

10-C: In the words of the great Slappy the Squirrel, "Somebody shoot me."

"As yet, the Evas are surely insufficient in number..." (Mada tarinai mono koso ikutsuka aru ga...): For something so short, this part has been a bit of trouble. Explaining why is difficult, but, essentially, it seems to be saying that something (mono) –- one of those horrible "general-purpose" Japanese nouns*, either referring back to the Evas or talking about as-yet-unmentioned "things" –- is insufficient, isn't enough, is falling short, etc., by a few. Once the grammar processed, the first thing that popped into my head was the line, "While fewer than planned, we'll have to make do" (#26') –- an insufficient number of Evas, as far as Seele were concerned. (We know that they were planning for more than nine of their own "Eva Series".) Even so, other folks have gotten different results; for example, roxfan at AnimeLyrics got, "There are some things still missing". :dizzy: At the moment, I'm going with "fan-geek intuition", although I might be wrong, since dodgy things in the sentence remain...

"...as long as that part was somehow accomplished..." (sono bubun sae dou ni ka sureba...): What the hell is "that part" (sono bubun)? You got me. roxfan suggested that it "probably refers to making of the 'key', the Eva." I'm not sure if that would falsify the translation I chose for the preceding section or not. Could "that part" be referring to the opening of the Path to Divinity instead? This is all very confusing. :dabs at blood running out of ears with a tissue:

"... people thought that they could procure gods, or, at least, entities very nearly so." ("...hito wa kami ka, arui wa sore ni kagiri naku chikai sonzai te ni ireru koto ga dekiru to omowareta.") This is the sentence from Hell, I tell you! "Chigoku ga hate shinai!" Mmkay, "procure gods"... Basically, "acquire / get their grimy meathooks on / etc. kami". This feels terribly ambiguous to me, but I figured that, with all of the "Adam = one close to a god, Evas = copied from Adam" crap earlier, creating Evas would thus be a way of procuring "gods, or at least the next best thing". But, then, the Evas are just a means to another end, aren't they? So, like, people acquire kami so that they can attain kami for themselves, or some blather like that... So, what kami are we actually talking about here? What stage of kami "acquisition" are we in? :sticks head into bucket of water:

And, oh yeah, "entities" is just sonzai, and that essentially means "existence" / "being". (And sometimes it sounds incredibly lame if you translate it directly.) I'm still not quite sure how this sonzai crap works, but they do seem to use it in the sense of "entity" (whatever the hell that means) now and again. "I AM THE ENTITY WHO IS YOUR MOTHER!!!" But we might not be talking about the Evas here after all, but some other kami-type sonzai instead. Ugh.

"That is also Seele's gospel": The "that is" (sore wa) part is floating at the beginning of the sentence and I'm not quite sure what the hell it's doing. But I'm guessing it's referring back to something (those goddam sore, you love to torment me) as being "Seele's doctrine / creed / dogma / gospel / whatever" (Seele no kyougi). (I used "gospel" to be cute.) I need to ask about this sentence. Things feel dodgy.

"If people gathered up the gods, what would happen?" (Hito wa kami o hirottara, nani o suru ka.) Okay, I dunno if it's actually plural "gods". Japanese sucks like that. But the verb here is sort of weird... (Hirou -– you can see what my buddies Excite ( http://www.excite.co.jp/dictionary/japanese_english/?search=%E6%8B%BE%E3%81%86&match=beginswith&block=65360&offset=1130) and SpaceAlc ( http://www2.alc.co.jp/ejr/index.php?word_in=%8FE%82%A4&word_in2=%82%A0%82%A2%82%A4%82%A6%82%A8&word_in3=PVawEWi72JXCKoa0Je) say about it, although the latter probably won't be particularly useful if you can't read the Japanese that provides context for each example. -_-; ) Of all of the definitions, "to collect / gather" seems to be the only one that could make any sense. "If people gathered / collected kami..." -– but what could that mean? If it's for the purpose of complementing what they're missing, as the context seems to imply...

As far as this geek can tell, "gods", plural, seems to be the best choice. Call it ... "woman's intuition", just because I'm a woman and I can use that cliche as an excuse whenever I can't think of anything better. :P

I use "god" singular for what people (hito) are to become in consideration of Seele's scenario, which was in favor of the Big Happy Hive Mind. I guess that's being equated to kami here –- a "god", "divinity", whatever.

Now do you see why I hate this section?

* Actually, two different general-purpose nouns -– homophones of one another -- so it really sucks when they don't use the kanji. I might add, the entire bloody CI (!!!) is guilty of this particular sin. (Although maybe it's on purpose. "You and your goddam ambiguities, making my life difficult...! :shakes fist: )

10-D: Um... maybe later. Typing up the ones for (C) really sucked the life force outta me. Like a Metroid. If there's anything you have any particular questions about, please shoot. The questions. Or me, if you're feeling particularly merciful. Nothing too heavy, though -– I still have a lot of work to do, and that will be difficult if I'm mortally wounded.

*****

And thus! In summation...

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-25/25_C033_col-disc_mid.jpg

"This is Reichu's brain after the Japanese language has been excessively cruel to it."

Maybe I can throw you "Gehirn" and "Seele" soon, too, despite the fact that I'm still screaming at parts of them. I mean, something is better than nothing, right? ...right?

[LuigiHann]

"The first step is the completion of Eva –- the body of a god and throne of a soul –- via the installation of an S2 Engine."
Didn't Seele yell at Gendo when EVA-01 gets an S2 engine? That "men shouldn't create Gods"? Buncha hypocrites.

[Seele08]

I don't think SEELE wanted the power of god in the hands of a lone (and somewhat crazy at this point) Eva. Just read some John Locke and it makes sense, the idea of tyranny over a king via some wacky "divine right" that rules without consent of the people. I'm thinking that's what SEELE was getting at. They seem to want a more "democratic" god as to avoid the rule of a single entity over all others. Don't ask me this is what being a political science major does to you.
THe eva's aren't so much literal gods though, more like powerful beings, but not anything like the Jewish, Christian, or Muslim god that is all-powerful and omnipotent.

[Reichu]

Or, rather, Seele cooks up nine (though they would've liked to have more) of their own "gods" (Evas with Super Solenoid Engines). And their Eva Series was being alluded to as early as episode #07. They were probably planning to sic them on Lilith before Yui got to fulfill her role as Lil's "alter ego".

Also, the bit, "Seele's intention for this man-made god is to guide the elite (themselves) to a nearly divine place" is rather interesting. Makes it sound like not only are the Evas, Angels, and Seeds a means to an end -- all of that mortal scum is, too. Seele don't seem to be painted as especially virtuous folks, in-show or out.

[AchtungAffen]

I'm still kinda confused by the Lance part. It was a failsafe, the first info on NGE2 said. Now a security device as it can destroy the Gods. That makes more sense. But SEELE's original plan included it and had to do with Lilith, right? Why? To destroy Lilith? That was part of the plan?

[Reichu]

I'm still kinda confused by the Lance part. It was a failsafe, the first info on NGE2 said. Now a security device as it can destroy the Gods. That makes more sense. But SEELE's original plan included it and had to do with Lilith, right? Why? To destroy Lilith? That was part of the plan?

They talk more about the "security device" stuff later, although that's more with regard to the function the Spear is serving here (http://www.evacommentary.org/full-op/full-op_C234_big.jpg). (You know, allusions to the Duel of the Seeds...) I'm not sure how valid the "failsafe" translation is, since I can't figure out how the bloke got it. The Spear is described as 保安装置; the 装置 is "device", and SpaceAlc (my bestest friend evar) gives us this (http://www2.alc.co.jp/ejr/index.php?word_in=%95%DB%88%C0&word_in2=%82%A9%82%AB%82%AD%82%AF%82%B1&word_in3=PVawEWi72JXCKoa0Je) for the former.

I'm not quite sure what the heck they're talking about in 10-D, either, with regards to the Spear. And... "last natural enemy", buh?

But it'll probably all make sense, eventually. But right now, I do know one thing: I hate that goddam Spear, so much. Though I hate this kami stuff a lot more.

[HeWhoPostsStuff]

This is because they were copied from Adam, she who is nearest to a god.
Outta curiosity, was a specifically feminine pronoun used in the original text, or is this a bit of "translator's license?" ;)

As for the "last natural enemy" bit on the Spear, I might guess it's referred to that way because it's pretty much the only weapon in the show which can easily destroy a "god," as the term's used here. With it gone, there wouldn't be much left to stand in the way of a "god" doing whatever it darn well pleased, I suppose...

[Reichu]

Outta curiosity, was a specifically feminine pronoun used in the original text, or is this a bit of "translator's license?" ;)

No pronoun or anything, but I was tired and it sounded nicer than using something like "the next best thing to a god" again. ;) And stuff.

It can always change. But remember, it's not my fault, ultimately. It's Anno's! HE did it!!

As for the "last natural enemy" bit on the Spear, I might guess it's referred to that way because it's pretty much the only weapon in the show which can easily destroy a "god," as the term's used here. With it gone, there wouldn't be much left to stand in the way of a "god" doing whatever it darn well pleased, I suppose...

Hmm... I shall ponder this...

[Ornette]

I think rockthing has that middle part of 10-C as "knowledge", as in "not enough knowledge" and if they can "fill in the gaps". But that doesn't seem to make any more sense, now that I think about it.

[Insidious Roden]

LOL Reichu, you are a blessing in disguise. I don't know where we would be without you.

[sheaman]

i'm putting all this into an organized text file ^_^

[Scutilla]

Wow, I can see why this is causing you trouble. Parts C and D are veeery interesting, though I don't know if I should comment until some of the "what the hell IS that?" issues are straightened out.

"As yet, the Evas are surely insufficient in number..." (Mada tarinai mono koso ikutsuka aru ga...): For something so short, this part has been a bit of trouble. Explaining why is difficult, but, essentially, it seems to be saying that something (mono) –- one of those horrible "general-purpose" Japanese nouns*, either referring back to the Evas or talking about as-yet-unmentioned "things" –- is insufficient, isn't enough, is falling short, etc., by a few. Once the grammar processed, the first thing that popped into my head was the line, "While fewer than planned, we'll have to make do" (#26') –- an insufficient number of Evas, as far as Seele were concerned. (We know that they were planning for more than nine of their own "Eva Series".) Even so, other folks have gotten different results; for example, roxfan at AnimeLyrics got, "There are some things still missing". :dizzy: At the moment, I'm going with "fan-geek intuition", although I might be wrong, since dodgy things in the sentence remain...
Assuming that the sentence applies both to the Evas and their number thereof... is there a "magic number" SEELE was shooting for, if any? I remember them saying once that "We now have eight Evas that have begun construction, and four that have not"- meaning that they intended to have a squad of 12 harpies? Only significant thing that I can think of is that that's the number of monoliths that we usually see (24' excepted). That brings this line to mind: "That is also Seele's gospel: opening the Path to Divinity by complementing the part that people are missing. If people gathered up the gods, what would happen? They thought that they could become a god themselves." Hmm...

Interestingly, nine Evas works out perfectly symbolism-wise, since they (along with Eva-01) each create one of the ten sephrioths of the tree. Wouldn't really make sense if they had three excess harpies.

[HeWhoPostsStuff]

Wouldn't really make sense if they had three excess harpies.
Heh, if this were the case, I picture the excess few MP Evas, while the rest are floating around stabbing themselves and making pretty pictures, sitting around, playing cards, drinking coffee, reading magazines, looking at their watches impatiently, etc.

[Seele08]

If the commitee did want an out maybe they planned on putting their souls in the MP Evas.....I doubt this very much though. They seemed happy to be complemented.

[Vaikyuko]

Maybe I can throw you "Gehirn" and "Seele" soon, too, despite the fact that I'm still screaming at parts of them. I mean, something is better than nothing, right? ...right?

*lusts for these sections*

[rockthing]

(Yes, rockthing, that scenario includes you!)

Thank you so much, I always dreamed of it!
;)

Again, sorry if my slow mail response didn't
catch you in time for the most recent post.
I feel your pain.
I attribute my procrastination
(thanks for that metaphor, I may yet learn from that)
to latent traumatic stress from my first experience
with this document. :lol:
It is a serious headache.
I think that you're second guessing is good for
the translation, though.
In retrospect, there are a lot of things I wrote,
that I would change if doing it again.

Just for the record, your work on section 9 is to commended.
That is so much more readable than what I had done.



This is because they were copied from Adam, she who is nearest to a god.

a little personal philosphy there Reichan? ;)



As yet, the Evas are surely insufficient in number. However, as long as that part was somehow accomplished, people thought that they could procure gods, or, at least, entities very nearly so.

10-C: In the words of the great Slappy the Squirrel, "Somebody shoot me."

"As yet, the Evas are surely insufficient in number..." (Mada tarinai mono koso ikutsuka aru ga...): For something so short, this part has been a bit of trouble. Explaining why is difficult, but, essentially, it seems to be saying that something (mono) –- one of those horrible "general-purpose" Japanese nouns*, either referring back to the Evas or talking about as-yet-unmentioned "things" –- is insufficient, isn't enough, is falling short, etc., by a few. Once the grammar processed, the first thing that popped into my head was the line, "While fewer than planned, we'll have to make do" (#26') –- an insufficient number of Evas, as far as Seele were concerned. (We know that they were planning for more than nine of their own "Eva Series".) Even so, other folks have gotten different results; for example, roxfan at AnimeLyrics got, "There are some things still missing". :dizzy: At the moment, I'm going with "fan-geek intuition", although I might be wrong, since dodgy things in the sentence remain...


(Mada tarinai mono koso ikutsuka aru ga...)

I still feel like this is saying that there are
'many things' (mono koso ikutsuka)
that are still not up to task
("they didn't know enough about'
was a pretty liberal Engrish to English translation,
now that I think about it)
But, I think saying that 'ikutuka' referrs to
the number of Eva's is putting context that isn't
in the original document into your translation.
I can't say that I am completely free of guilt
on the same matter, but from one sinner to another...
;)

Again, I'll take your procrastination metaphor to heart
and, as Janis Joplin once sang,
'Get it while I (you) can'
;)

[OMF]

The meaning of 10-D's references to the Spear seem to imply that SEELE may have feared that the one complemented being could be destroyed by it after complementation was complete. What's the use of being a God if you can be killed just as easily as a mortal?

But why would this make complementation using Lilith dependant on the Lance?

[Ornette]

The meaning of 10-D's references to the Spear seem to imply that SEELE may have feared that the one complemented being could be destroyed by it after complementation was complete. What's the use of being a God if you can be killed just as easily as a mortal?
I never thought of it this way, but it could very well be. Getting rid of it by throwing it to the moon was not good enough, since it hasn't been destroyed and since it has a will of its own it may end up coming back and screwing things up.

But why would this make complementation using Lilith dependant on the Lance?
This is the part that doesn't make sense assuming the previous.

[Scutilla]

I never thought of it this way, but it could very well be. Getting rid of it by throwing it to the moon was not good enough, since it hasn't been destroyed and since it has a will of its own it may end up coming back and screwing things up.
Which it did... well, more like Shinji in Eva-01 wrapped in a cross-shaped spear.

[Reichu]

Wow, I can see why this is causing you trouble. Parts C and D are veeery interesting, though I don't know if I should comment until some of the "what the hell IS that?" issues are straightened out.

I guess comments could potentially help straighten them out.

Assuming that the sentence applies both to the Evas and their number thereof... is there a "magic number" SEELE was shooting for, if any? I remember them saying once that "We now have eight Evas that have begun construction, and four that have not"- meaning that they intended to have a squad of 12 harpies? Only significant thing that I can think of is that that's the number of monoliths that we usually see (24' excepted).

Well, in #24', there's probably a reason why the number is different. ;) Ev-er-y oth-er time we see Seele, there are 12 of them.

One harpy for each of the Seele dudes? I'll have to think about that one.

That brings this line to mind: "That is also Seele's gospel: opening the Path to Divinity by complementing the part that people are missing. If people gathered up the gods, what would happen? They thought that they could become a god themselves." Hmm...

Well, what are people missing?


Hyuga:
A.T. Field shifting to Pattern Red!

Fuyutsuki:
The Fruit of Life possessed by Angels,
And the Fruit of Wisdom possessed by humans...

Fuyutsuki (OFF):
Having obtained them both, EVA-01 has become like a god.
And now she is restoring the Tree of Life, the embryo of lives.

You sort of have to wonder just what the hell is going on in this particular scene -- eh?

Interestingly, nine Evas works out perfectly symbolism-wise, since they (along with Eva-01) each create one of the ten sephrioths of the tree. Wouldn't really make sense if they had three excess harpies.

Yeah, we noticed that one a while back.

If the commitee did want an out maybe they planned on putting their souls in the MP Evas.....

I don't think that would be possible, anyway. "Not just any soul can sit on Eva's throne."

Again, sorry if my slow mail response didn't
catch you in time for the most recent post.

Actually, I think it did... I just posted before I fired off a response to you because the guilt associated with this thread was too much for me to bear. ;)

I feel your pain.
I attribute my procrastination (thanks for that metaphor, I may yet learn from that) to latent traumatic stress from my first experience
with this document. :lol:
It is a serious headache.

"Traumatic stress"... :lol: That feels familiar! The HIP section turned out EXTREMELY limited results at AnimeLyrics, to the point that somebody recommended that I try a mailing list for professional translators: "You might have more luck". Oh dear...

a little personal philosphy there Reichan? ;)

Well, I guess people will inevitably say so, but using a feminine pronoun on someone identified in the show as a mother (haha), out of whom eggs cometh, who has a ridiculous level of genetic convergence with H. sapiens, doesn't seem especially farfetched to me. http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/sweatdroplaugh.gif And the show already identifies the Evas as kanojo, and the Evas were "copied" from you-know-who.

Hence, the usual disclaimer: "If you don't like it... uh, file a complaint to Anno, or Seele, something. I take no responsibility for NGE's gratuitous unisexualization of the name 'Adam'."

I still feel like this is saying that there are 'many things' (mono koso ikutsuka) that are still not up to task ("they didn't know enough about' was a pretty liberal Engrish to English translation, now that I think about it)
But, I think saying that 'ikutuka' referrs to the number of Eva's is putting context that isn't in the original document into your translation.
I can't say that I am completely free of guilt on the same matter, but from one sinner to another... ;)

Uhhh, errrr, uhhh... I probably will end up changing it... Just give me some time to let that entire bloody entry swish around in my brain for a while longer. ^_^

The meaning of 10-D's references to the Spear seem to imply that SEELE may have feared that the one complemented being could be destroyed by it after complementation was complete.

Ya, but by whom? :makes spooky sound:

But why would this make complementation using Lilith dependant on the Lance?

Because it's a Swiss Army Spear -- it can do lotsa things besides killing "gods" (or putting them into suspended animation). We're just left to our devices to figure out what these functions actually are.

I never thought of it this way, but it could very well be. Getting rid of it by throwing it to the moon was not good enough, since it hasn't been destroyed and since it has a will of its own it may end up coming back and screwing things up.

I'm still not quite committal about what "having a will" implies. I have my doubts that it entails zipping around and attacking things of its own accord. That seems somewhat out of bounds with what we see in the show. Mysteries...

[Mr. Tines]

I don't think that would be possible, anyway. "Not just any soul can sit on Eva's throne."

Plus, they explicitly reject the "ark of Eva". Nor would that seem in keeping with the outcome a bunch of Qabbalistic apocalypts would be seeking.

[Reichu]

Plus, they explicitly reject the "ark of Eva".

What does the Ark Called Eva have to do with Eva as the Throne of a Soul?

This "Soul/Throne" stuff is sort of confusing me... In Japanese, they use tamashii no za: tamashii = soul, za = throne, no = Particle from Hell*. In #14, it seems to be used in two different contexts: The Japanese title is, "Seele, Tamashii no Za" (usu. translated as "Seele, Throne of Souls").** The other reference is in Rei's Monologue (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-14/episode-14B-scene07.html#cut014):

"People are what? Something created by a god [kami-sama]?
Are people something created by people?
The things I possess are my life. My mind.
The vessel of the mind. Entry plug.
It is the throne of a soul."

And now we have NGE2 referring to the Eva herself as tamashii no za. Uhhhh durrrr? Maybe it'd help if I knew what sort of bizarre esoteric reference they were making. Something about this "throne of the soul" stuff randomly popped up here (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5608119&postcount=38), but I dunno how much that'd help us...

In any case, the tamashii no za mentioned in 10-D seems to be the one Yui, Kyoko, etc., are "sitting" on. One can get the needed context by comparing this reference (tamashii no za de aru kami no nikutai = EVA, or, "the body -- as in meatsack -- of a god, which is the throne of (a) soul = EVA") to the one all the way back in 1-D (EVA = kami no nikutai to tamashii taru ningen, or, "EVA = a human being who is the body of a god + a soul").

Back to what you were originally talking about, Steve-ojisan: Abandoning one's original body to take residence in an Eva's core is one thing. (Assuming that's what Seele08 was talking about.) By the sound of things, the "Ark" function (whatever the hell it entails) is something else altogether -- apparently a role Eva can fulfill in the Gendo-approved HIP scenario.

* I.e., if you care, look it up (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=japanese+particles&btnG=Google+Search).

** Reichu idly wonders if they're playing mind games with us again, considering that, as actual words, "Seele" and "tamashii" mean the same thing. W-why is the phrase "Ghosts of the Lake" suddenly popping into my head? :eek:

[Reichu]

Still some dodginesses (duh), but here you go. Enjoy.

Maybe if we're really lucky, they'll start getting easier after this. <_<

*****

11. Gehirn

A. Publicly Released Information

Data unavailable.

B. Generally Recognized Information

One might call this research organization Nerv's predecessor. It was dismantled in 2010, the same year that Naoko Akagi completed the Magi System. With the exception of her, Gehirn's personnel were transferred over to Nerv, the executive agency for all of the projects.

C. Confidential Information

"Gehirn" is Seele's secret agency designation for the Artificial Evolution Laboratory. The Artificial Evolution Laboratory was a public organization recognized by the United Nations. On the surface, its goal was the research of artificial evolution.

D. In-Depth Information

Gehirn's objective was the Adam revival project (Project E). This actually entailed making copies of her -– in other words, creating the Evas.

And, as they approached the execution, the organization's style was scaled up and Nerv was formed.*

12. Seele

A. Publicly Released Information

Data unavailable.

B. Generally Recognized Information

A secret society that puppets Nerv from the shadows towards the fulfillment of the Human Instrumentality Project. Nerv's financial backing comes almost entirely from them.

C. Confidential Information

An esoteric secret society born during the medieval Dark Ages and, originally, a religious order. Slowly but surely, they extended their influence, until at last they crushed the final forces of opposition in the mid-20th century and became a latent power with covert rule over human society.

D. In-Depth Information

Upon acquiring the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls, Seele turned once again to a creed that, up until then, they had considered naught but the pipe dreams of their ancestors. By putting the miracle of divinity, in the form of prophecy, within their sights, they restored the faith. Their dogma is the Path to Adam Kadmon -- that is, the approaching of a divinity both ageless and undying.

Footnotes for 11 & 12

11-D: Does that third sentence sound dodgy? Yes it does! I need to check some things... :sigh:

12-C: I'm actually not sure if they're talking about the Dark Ages specifically... The only definition for the used kanji compound (暗黒期) I can find is "eclipse period". Uh... come again? Eclipse period of the middle ages? Does that make sense to anyone?

Also, for some reason, part of this entry was giving me "Star Wars" flashbacks. Yeah, I know how pointless that was. :P

And... does "latent power" sound funny?

[LuigiHann]

"Latent power" sounds fine, like a dormant or hidden power, where they have a potential to excert a lot more control than they actually do, which was quite possibly the case up until closer to the time the show takes place. I imagine this means that they'd made secret connections with all the agencies that appeared to be in control, so that when the time comes for a big descision, they can force it their way.

[Vaikyuko]

Latent power is dandy, unless you accidentally translated it to that instead of Latex power, which would definitely be screwy in more ways than one.

Anyways. This stuff was great. Seriously. The other stuff kinda bored me somewhat, but this was really good. Cause, y'know, it's Gehirn and SEELE (in all caps, damn you all!). :P

[HeWhoPostsStuff]

Slowly but surely, they extended their influence, until at last they crushed the final forces of opposition in the mid-20th century and became a latent power with covert rule over human society.
Hmmm....I wonder what those "forces of opposition" might have been, specifically?

[LuigiHann]

The Catholic Church? The Liberal Media? The Skull and Bones? V?

[Seele08]

Nazis? Communists? Wait....wouldn't Vlad have been a godless commie at some point....

[Ornette]

The Free Masons?

[Seele08]

I've got it! Xenu and the evil clumps of alien souls that cling to our bodies. Yes SEELE is the answer to Scientologies greatest problem! The evil alien overlord Xenu..... :rolleyes: You see SEELE was founded by Ron L. Hubble to "clear the planet"! And 3I will rid the planet of the lost alien souls!
http://www.xenu.net/

[thewayneiac]

The Tri-lateral Commission?

[Vaikyuko]

Who knows. Despite the fact they were a real organization and (IMO) did nothing, I might as well say the Knights Templar.

[Seele08]

SEELE defeated their former enemies.....the Girl Scouts!

[Reichu]

You're all wrong! It was... without a doubt... the Church of the Subgenius (http://www.subgenius.com/)!!

[Seele08]

No! Its the CHurch of the Flying Spaghetti Monster! http://www.venganza.org/

[Reichu]

Well, I guess since the CI specifies "mid-20th century", some of the aforementioned options are effectively ruled out. Awwww.

[Seele08]

SEELE defeated the West coast Crip gang in a rap-off to take control of the world. Teddy dropped some phat beats they just can't compete Yo'. SEELE is all about Thug Life. "Pierre" is a hard core gangsta. Just look at this guy man this is a mug shot after he was caught doin' a drive-by in Compton.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/sefisher/NGE/SEELE/The%20Commitee%20and%20Yui/Pierre1.gif
He's one tough gangsta.

[sheaman]

if i saw that guy in real life like a gangsta i'd soil myself.

laughing.

[Vaikyuko]

Well, I guess since the CI specifies "mid-20th century", some of the aforementioned options are effectively ruled out. Awwww.

There goes the Knights Templar...exterminated around 1150 or 1200 AD, as I recall.

[Seele08]

I did a couple of drawings of one of the SEELE members dressed as a gangsta. I did the lone black guy of SEELE and the whole series as a gangsta, poor "Teddy" has a rough life on the streets.

This one is just a rough sketch... http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/sefisher/My%20Artwork/gangstateddy.jpg
And I've posted this one before but what the hell, I'll post it again.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/sefisher/My%20Artwork/GangstaTeddy2.jpg

EDIT: SomethingAwful.com has it solved for us! http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=3684

[Reichu]

Progress Report:

Progress = None. I've become increasingly intimidated by the difficulty of the material, and the troubles inherent in finding others who aren't similarly scratching their heads over certain areas. There's a couple of places that have been recommended to me for the *****ier parts. "But I are afraid! They'll just make fun of me! WAHHHHHHH!!!"

But I could probably be getting stuff done even with that pending. Okay, that's a lie: I could be getting things done. I need to stop cowering on my folding chair (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-25/25_C033_col-disc_mid.jpg) and just get this over with. "Visualize your plan of attack... Visualize!"

[rockthing]

You can do it Reichu!!!!! :)
I felt the same way you do about a month and a half ago.
Fight!!! Ganbare!!!!
You're public is waiting for you! :P

I had been feeling similarly about the fansub thing I volunteered to do.
I sat down with it today, and knocked out over half of the thing just this afternoon.
Once I got past a few really daunting points most of what was in between or
around it came together pretty quickly.

Concentrate, concentrate, the stone, the toolbox, the ship,
feel the force flowing through you...

Remember your experience with procrastination
use what you have learned ;)

[Ornette]

http://buzzy.tesuji.org/images/animated/bump_ani.gif
*cracks whip*

[Reichu]

Uh... NGE2? Classified Information? What is this? What would I know of such things?

http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/paranoid.gif

Ornette --> http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/whip_bondage.gif <-- Reichu

Ooof! That smarts!

I guess I'll go nag... various people now.

[Reichu]

Sweet Aki--, er, Katsuragi-hakase in the Antarctic Dead Sea! Has it really been that long?

:wonders if she should collapse back into Shinji-Type Self Pity Mode or not:

Nah. I'll just post what I have for the next two entries instead, just to let you know that I do, in fact, care after all. ^_^

13. A.T. Field

A. Publicly Released Information

An absolute physical barrier only the Angels and Evas are capable of generating. No conventional weapon on the face of the Earth is capable of penetrating an Angel's A.T. Field. Evas neutralize the Angels' A.T. Fields while engaged in combat.

B. Generally Recognized Information

Humans also have A.T. Fields, but, lacking the shear power of the Angels', they cannot affect the physical world.

C. Confidential Information

The throne of the soul is the body, and the A.T. Field is what determines it. The A.T. Field, or ego (self), is the wall of the heart that separates one person from another.

People are people because they think of themselves as people.

D. In-Depth Information

The maximum extent of an A.T. Field's expansion is an ego without restriction (that is to say, a god). Before this can happen, a person's ego collapses and he reverts to LCL.

14. S2 Engine

A. Publicly Released Information

Data unavailable.

B. Generally Recognized Information

The "Super Solenoid Engine" is the Angels' source of limitless motive energy. It is thought that this gives the Angels abilities such as self-regeneration and metamorphosis that, for living creatures, go beyond the bounds of common sense.

C. Confidential Information

The S2 Engine Theory was advocated by Dr. Katsuragi. As the world is formed with spirals, the engine acquires energy from its shape, which is the same as DNA. From here, the S2 Engine was being envisioned as an energy source that would attempt to procure helical energy -– in other words, an inexhaustible supply.*

D. In-Depth Information

The Fruit of Life. This is the one thing that an Eva requires in order to gain an existence equal to that of Adam.

Footnotes for 13 & 14

14-C. "As the world is formed with spirals" (sekai wa neji de dekite ori) is the best I can currently muster for the part in question, which doesn't really make much sense to me. Still asking around.

[Shin-seiki]

C. Confidential Information

The S2 Engine Theory was advocated by Dr. Katsuragi. As the world is formed with spirals, the engine acquires energy from its shape, which is the same as DNA. From here, the S2 Engine was being envisioned as an energy source that would attempt to procure helical energy -– in other words, an inexhaustible supply.*
Wow... Well, I need to go back and try to integrate this stuff with my theory of how the S^2 and DNA are related.
[puts on thinking cap...]

[Reichu]

Wow... Well, I need to go back and try to integrate this stuff with my theory of how the S^2 and DNA are related.
[puts on thinking cap...]

How does the entry "disrupt" your theory?

[Shin-seiki]

How does the entry "disrupt" your theory?I don't know about "disrupting" it, let's just say that I wish I'd had this information available when I posted that stuff; I might've put it a little differently

[Reichu]

Well, if that means the "world is formed by spirals" thing actually makes sense, I look forward to yon day when you spill the beans. http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/sonic_idle.gif

Hmm... Angel and Adam are next. Those sound like fun.

[Ornette]

The throne of the soul is the body, and the A.T. Field is what determines it.
What exactly is the "it" refering to here. I took a look at rockthing's translation and it seemed like we missed something in this sub-section, but based on what's there, does the "it" refer to the "body"? Yeah, I guess so.

The first time I read the "world is formed by spirals" I had assumed it refers to some esoteric type of physics. Similar to M-string theory where you'd say the "world is made of vibrating strings".

[Reichu]

What exactly is the "it" refering to here. I took a look at rockthing's translation and it seemed like we missed something in this sub-section, but based on what's there, does the "it" refer to the "body"? Yeah, I guess so.

Rockthing's take was a bit loose, and I mentioned this to him. Here's a breakdown:

Tamashii no za [throne of <a> soul] ga [subject marker] nikutai [body] de*, sore** o [marking object that receives the action] kettei suru [determine/decide] no [turning stuff after comma into noun phrase] ga A.T. Field = jiga [ego/self] (tasha [another person / others]... and, uh, stuff.

* Here, a form of desu, the "verb to be". I'm not good with language jargon, so I forget exactly what this function is called, but it's serving to link this phrase to the next one, most literally in the sense, "the throne of the soul being the body...".
** Literally "that" (in the sense of, "that thing that is closer to you than to me"), although it's going into much vaguer territory here. I oftentimes have trouble figuring out just WTF "this" and "that" are supposed to be referring to when either of them are used like this (to refer back to something previously mentioned), unless the context makes it really obvious.

"Body" seems like the only real choice, unless my brain is conveniently forgetting something. (It likes to do that a lot.)

The first time I read the "world is formed by spirals" I had assumed it refers to some esoteric type of physics. Similar to M-string theory where you'd say the "world is made of vibrating strings".

Shin-seiki offered up a similar sort of suggestion to me. I don't know a thing about that stuff, so the phrase was pretty "... WTF?" Here are some of the interpretational possibilities, in case anyone has any further ideas.

The phrase goes, Sekai wa rasen de dekite ori.... For all intents and purposes, we shall turn this into an equation in English word order: The world is A (= dekite ori) B (= de) C (= rasen).

A: Conjugation of the verb dekiru; the form indicates that the action is something that's started and is still going on. Definitions can be found at Excite (http://www.excite.co.jp/dictionary/japanese_english/?search=%E5%87%BA%E6%9D%A5&match=beginswith&block=63783&offset=610). (Stuff directly after the numbers only - the things after the bullets are examples of context.)

B: Annoying particle; follows the word it affects in Japanese, but (usually) translates into a preposition in English. Examples of usage here (http://japanese.about.com/library/weekly/aa091601a.htm).

C: spiral, helix. Can be interpreted as plural.

[LuigiHann]

http://myweb.cableone.net/hal9000/FARK/05-01-06/StringTheory.jpg
Somebody put this up in a recent fark photoshop, I thought it was pretty funny. (vaguely relevent to "world nade of spirals/strings conversation)

[Polaryzed_123]

If anybody really wants to know what String Theory is there is a great documentary that aired on NOVA on PBS last year. If you have a high speed connection you can watch it onlne. Its a great show (but 3 hours long) and explains everything you've ever wanted to know about string theory in terms that anyone can understand and some exceptional CG explanations. Its broken down into episodes and chapters if you don't wish to watch the whole thing. Here's the link to it:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html

[Reichu]

I will have to take a look at that sometime...

@LuigiHann: :lol:

Mmkay, my brain really isn't cut out for this stuff, but I did find one quantum-stuff site (http://www.quantum-universe.com/html/matter_from_light.html) that, in very dodgy English, mentions,

Spiral-field-strings (or screw-field-strings) close itself together to various unending spiral-field-rings (or unending screw-field-rings) and that forms all things which we know: in our near and far surroundings; and also the widest universe; and - last not least - us our self.

Well, that sounds like it might be in the right area. Quantum...strings...spirals...fields...

I also found something about "spiral energy" (http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=1810), but all I could really gather from it was, "Well, at least there are geekier forums than the one I frequent..."

Too bad Zweizung, er, Zuzwang had to get himself banned.

[thewayneiac]

Spiral-field-strings (or screw-field-strings) close itself together to various unending spiral-field-rings (or unending screw-field-rings) and that forms all things which we know: in our near and far surroundings; and also the widest universe; and - last not least - us our self.


Hold your group together with Roto-Sound strings!


Sorry, couldn't resist that one.

[Ornette]

If anybody really wants to know what String Theory is there is a great documentary that aired on NOVA on PBS last year. If you have a high speed connection you can watch it onlne. Its a great show (but 3 hours long) and explains everything you've ever wanted to know about string theory in terms that anyone can understand and some exceptional CG explanations. Its broken down into episodes and chapters if you don't wish to watch the whole thing. Here's the link to it:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html
Yeah, that is a pretty good NOVA (but then, pretty much all NOVA is good). Brian Greene was on Charlie Rose last night (with Alan Alda, wtf?) talking about string theory. This series is a good at explaining why something like string theory exists and the purpose it serves, starting from Newton to the introduction of relativity, then to quantum mechanics, then near the end of this series they start getting into string theory.

But enough about real science in a science fiction anime. Whatever purpose that "the world is made of spirals", I think, can be analagous to the real world theory that "the world is made of strings". Maybe in the world of NGE, everything is made of super tiny spirals (as opposed to strings).

[Mr. Tines]

Mmkay, my brain really isn't cut out for this stuff, but I did find one quantum-stuff site (http://www.quantum-universe.com/html/matter_from_light.html) that, in very dodgy English, mentions,

and very dodgy physics too.

[Magami No ER]

If anybody really wants to know what String Theory is there is a great documentary that aired on NOVA on PBS last year. If you have a high speed connection you can watch it onlne. Its a great show (but 3 hours long) and explains everything you've ever wanted to know about string theory in terms that anyone can understand and some exceptional CG explanations. Its broken down into episodes and chapters if you don't wish to watch the whole thing. Here's the link to it:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html
I read the book by Brian Greene, neat stuff.

[Reichu]

and very dodgy physics too.

You got any ideas on what this spiral/helix stuff might be referencing? There's "the world is made of spirals" part, and there's the "helical/spiral energy" thing, too.

"NGE science" tends to be a take-off on SOMEthing, oftentimes incorporating pseudoscientific concepts from them, or what we'd consider pseudoscientific spin-offs, into the hard-core science of its own universe. The Dirac Sea thing, for instance, or the way that MPB seems to be some f'd-up chimaera of psychological ideas, "quantum stuff", and various other wackiness.

Whatever purpose that "the world is made of spirals", I think, can be analagous to the real world theory that "the world is made of strings". Maybe in the world of NGE, everything is made of super tiny spirals (as opposed to strings).

So it would seem... I'm rather curious as to the underlying logic behind all this. Spirals, Super Solenoid Engines/Organs, "helical energy" as an endless supply, and so on. I have *very* heavy suspicions that the Dirac Sea ties intimately into this Super Solenoid stuff, and Zuzwang mentioned some things in another thread that seem rather relevant to this whole mess.

[Mr. Tines]

You got any ideas on what this spiral/helix stuff might be referencing?

Not really - it's not something I can tie up to any obvious bit of real physics, or even widely known fringe material.

[Reichu]

Reichu has another entry for ya'll. Yeah, I know what you're thinking. (http://www.evacommentary.org/images_capdoc/evarly4qo.gif) You'll just have to take my word for it. :P Probably not including all the notes I should, so ask questions. Adam's up next, yay!

*****

15. Angel

A. Publicly Released Information

Data unavailable.

B. Generally Recognized Information

The unidentified enemy of humankind, transcending the concepts of living and nonliving. Conventional weaponry is no match for their overwhelming offensive power. The target of their invasions is Nerv Headquarters in the Geofront below Tokyo-3.

C. Confidential Information

Angels are, indeed, lifeforms that were born from Adam. Humanity, on the other hand, originated from Lilith. Compared to organisms born from Lilith, the Angels are predisposed towards enormous size and individualistic existences. Adam-based life should be thriving on Earth, as it is the life that originally germinated there.

D. In-Depth Information

Two Seeds of Life cannot exist on one planet, and, therefore, one of them is excluded. As recorded in the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls, Adam-based life took part in a contest of survival, putting the stakes on their own existence. Some of them were trying to access Lilith and reset all life, some of them had nothing in mind, and some were trying to recover their progenitor Adam. The Angels –- Adam-based life –- became active under their respective tactics for survival and success.

Footnotes for 15

15-C. Here they use two different verbs that can mean "to be born" (literally or metaphorically) for Adam and Lilith's offspring. For the former, it's umareru –- as in, Adam kara umareta seimei –- but, for the latter, it's tanjou suru (Lilith kara tanjou shita no wa jinrui). I'm not sure what the difference in nuance is.

Third sentence is an annoying one; the second half doesn't seen to lend itself to literal interpretation, or, possibly, I just suck. <insert details I don't feel like typing at the moment>

The last sentence has been rearranged a little for fluency, but the information is the same. The "germination" (the verb mebuku, "to bud, come into bud, put forth buds") part seems to be making a metaphorical play on Adam's "Seed" title.

[Shin-seiki]

Spiral-field-strings (or screw-field-strings) close itself together to various unending spiral-field-rings (or unending screw-field-rings) and that forms all things which we know: in our near and far surroundings; and also the widest universe; and - last not least - us our self.Re-reading this put me in mind of something I was just watching:
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5443/doremiotomeshihospiralsmaiotom.jpg
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/3686/doremiotomeshihospiralsmaiotom1.jpg
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/5443/doremiotomeshihospiralsmaiotom.jpg

[Z Metalla]

Woohoo! The translation of the gem mine continues. XD

Although, most of this angel entry I either already knew about, or thought myself at times. :P Still, it's awesome.

[Reichu]

Re-reading this put me in mind of something I was just watching:

omgwtf?!? I'm perplexed, intrigued, and larfing, all at once.

Woohoo! The translation of the gem mine continues. XD

Yes. The scenario proceeds according to my design. Inject life back into the forum --> my brain self-stimulates itself into wanting to finish off the CI. At least, there might be some sort of connection. But I shouldn't speak too soon...

[Jabberwok]

...Some of them were trying to access Lilith and reset all life, some of them had nothing in mind, and some were trying to recover their progenitor Adam...


I like this entry. It helps me to have more respect for the Angels that didn't seem like they could do their jobs very well...

Gaghiel: Don't get me wrong-- Sharks with frikin laser beams are cool and all, but unless you're going to flop on land for the last 50km...

Sahaquiel: "If I can't have all of you, then I don't want anything to do with you."

Liliel and Arael: Unless you gals have some wicked special moves you're holding back, maybe you should team up with one of your sisters.



But anyways, thanks Reichu. Good stuff to chew on, as always.

[AchtungAffen]

Weee!! So happiness! Keep em coming Reichu! Great work.

BTW: Shin-seiki, what's the sauce of those pics?

[Shin-seiki]

BTW: Shin-seiki, what's the sauce of those pics?My-Otome DVD Special 4: (http://img435.imageshack.us/img435/8158/shiho27wl.jpg)

[Reichu]

Some more suffering before I go sleepies. I managed to type notes for all my troubles, somehow. I wonder if they make me look less credible, more credible, or both at the same same. :P

Glancing at the next one, the Dead Sea Scrolls... "You've GOT to be ****ing kidding me."

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-15/15_C280A_c_mid.jpg

16. Adam

A. Publicly Released Information

Data unavailable.

B. Generally Recognized Information

The First Angel. The white giant crucified in Terminal Dogma.

C. Confidential Information

The entity, a progenitor of life, implanted into Earth by the First Ancestral Race. She was discovered at the South Pole by the Katsuragi Team, but, during the investigation, she blew apart and degenerated due to her S^2 Engine artificially going out of control.

D. In-Depth Information

There hasn't been a soul within Adam. At the time of Second Impact, her body was torn apart, and her soul flew off somewhere as a result. It was later recovered by Seele and incarnated, taking the form called Kaworu Nagisa.

Because the Evas are a part of Kaworu's own body, he can manipulate them freely. However, he cannot go into them, for the reason that there are souls (the pilots' mothers) within the bodies.

Footnotes for 16.

16-C. "...by the First Ancestral Race...": To elaborate, "ni yotte" is "according to, due to, because of, by (means) of, depending on, etc." As we'll see later, it just seems to mean that they're ultimately responsible for Adam being there, but not actively "implanting" Adam into Earth themselves.

The word used for "implanted" here is chakushou, "implantation", e.g., an ovum into the uterine wall. (I vaguely recall you making a comment like, "Mother Earth, indeed", Steve, but I can't find the original ATM.)

The bit about being discovered by the Katsuragi Team raises some questions...

"Blew apart" is barabara no nikuhen to natte. Barabara 'describes' scattering, dispersal, the condition of being in pieces, and such like, and nikuhen literally means "chunk/piece of meat". (~ to naru = to become ~.) rockthing's take was "torn to pieces". It seems like an idiomatic thing that doesn't translate literally, in any case, but I haven't gone around and asked about it.

"Degenerated" is taika shita, and could also be "retrogressed". Seems to refer rather transparently to the bit about Adam being reduced to an egg (#25').

"Artificially going out of control" is jin'i bousou, "artificial" + "out of control". (Come on. If you don't know bousou, Yui-sama is disappointed!) Sometimes you might hear me just say "artificial overdrive", since it's shorter and it sounds cool.

16-D. The first sentence is plain past tense, actually, but I take it that with this first sentence they're talking about post-2I Adam, and I made it "hasn't been" since it sounds less awkward and seems to fit the context.

"Recovered" can also be "collected".

"Incarnated": This one is interesting. It's the word for "incarnation" (juniku) modified into a passive verb, and commonly (not sure about exclusively) used in association with that Jahshua Ha Mashiyach, er, I mean, Jesus Christ fellow. We're not supposed to trust Wikipedia and all, but it still has a handy summary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarnation) on the "incarnation" concept, and it mentions the word's original meaning of "enfleshing" ("wrapping in flesh", as the Japanese entry puts it). The "Jesus Parallel" implied with this one word (not that it's anything particularly new and astounding) takes some liberties, of course. (You know... "God" being physical, "God" being female, "Jesus" being immaculately conceived within "God" by a meddling mortal, and... various other things people don't necessarily buy into. :bravely runs away: )

Having trouble articulating the last part of the third sentence (...kore wa Nagisa Kaworu to iu katachi ni naru). "...this takes the form called Kaworu Nagisa" is what I'm literally getting, but that obviously sounds dodgy... What is "this", first of all? Adam's soul?

The part about 'Eva being a part of Kaworu's body" is problematic ATM –- I'm rather uncertain as to the handling of the sentence's opener, "Kaworu ni shite mireba...". I would need to look into that before you try reading too deeply into this sentence.

No gender-specific wording is used, but I still suffered through considerable emotional trauma to give you the pronoun "he" anyway. It was, truly, the most difficult part of providing something for this entry. :cackle:

[CanonRAP]

Some of them were trying to access Lilith and reset all life, some of them had nothing in mind, and some were trying to recover their progenitor Adam.

Well, that explains some things.

Because the Evas are a part of Kaworu's own body, he can manipulate them freely. However, he cannot go into them, for the reason that there are souls (the pilots' mothers) within the bodies.

Adam has some interesting abilities.

[Reichu]

Well, that explains some things.

But then you have to wonder who exactly is doing what, and why.

Adam has some interesting abilities.

Nothing particularly new, though.

Episode #24

MISATO (MONO):
But why did the Angel take EVA-02?

FUYUTSUKI (whispers):
Could it be planning to merge with EVA-02?

IKARI:
Or possibly to bring about destruction.

***

KAWORU:
The Eva series.
Born from Adam, they are an abhorrent existence for humans.
And the Lilim will even use them in order to survive.
I can't understand.

SHINJI:
Kaworu, stop this! Why?!

KAWORU:
The Evas are made of the same body as I am.
Because I am born from Adam as well.
I could merge with them, if only they didn't have souls.
EVA-02's soul has shut itself away for now.

***

KAWORU:
Thank you, Shinji.
I wanted you to stop EVA-02.
Otherwise, I may have gone on living with her.

SHINJI:
Kaworu, why?

KAWORU:
Because it's my destiny to continue to live even if it may result in
the destruction of humanity.

Okay, you only REALLY want the part in red, but all of that stuff about "merging" and "living with" (plus "entering", in the CI) is rather interesting, no? :P

[CanonRAP]

But then you have to wonder who exactly is doing what, and why.

Isn't that the easy part??

Prologue Arc: Um...introduce yourselves??
Action Arc: Get killed by Evas.
Descent Arc: Piss off Evas, then get killed by Evas.
The Bitter End: Allow yourself to die, thus ending the entire ADO line.

Nothing particularly new, though.

Ah, I forgot about that *looks down*



<convos...they are interesting BTW>

KAWORU:
The Evas are made of the same body as I am.
Because I am born from Adam as well.
I could merge with them, if only they didn't have souls.
EVA-02's soul has shut itself away for now.

Okay, you only REALLY want the part in red, but all of that stuff about "merging" and "living with" (plus "entering", in the CI) is rather interesting, no? :P

[kaos]

There hasn't been a soul within Adam. At the time of Second Impact, her body was torn apart, and her soul flew off somewhere as a result. It was later recovered by Seele and incarnated, taking the form called Kaworu Nagisa.
In Ep 23, Ritsuko talks about how the "god" they found "disappeared". From the recent entry above, my guess is that they meant it was blown apart (I think I saw the word "disintigrated" used too). Then she says that they tried to resurrect it, and the result was Adam.

So would that mean that the second impact didn't actually shrink Adam (for the lack of a better word), but that instead Adam was totally annihilated and the little Adam is something that Seele (or whoever) grew out of leftover Adam reminants? The only thing that makes me question this conclusion is this image (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-23/23_C317_npc_30_big.jpg) where Adam and Kowaru's eggs are supposedly floating in the water.

Because the Evas are a part of Kaworu's own body, he can manipulate them freely. However, he cannot go into them, for the reason that there are souls (the pilots' mothers) within the bodies.
So would this explain why they Seele said that they had to use Unit-01? Because Unit-01 is born from Lilith so Kowaru can't manipulate it?

[Shin-seiki]

In Ep 23, Ritsuko talks about how the "god" they found "disappeared". From the recent entry above, my guess is that they meant it was blown apart (I think I saw the word "disintigrated" used too). Then she says that they tried to resurrect it, and the result was Adam.I think the meaning of Ritsuko's words was that the "god" they found was Adam, not that they found a god, blew it up, and then got Adam as a result.

[Reichu]

Quicky @ kaos: Misato tells us in #25' that Adam was reduced to an egg as a result of 2I.

[thewayneiac]

There hasn't been a soul within Adam. At the time of Second Impact, her body was torn apart, and her soul flew off somewhere as a result. It was later recovered by Seele and incarnated, taking the form called Kaworu Nagisa

Now that is seriously weird. To where did the soul "fly off", and exactly how did they find it, let alone recover it? Hasn't the assumption always been that Seele recovered Adam's soul from her remains (perhaps from the very sample that Kaji steals for Gendo)? We know thats how Gendo recovers the souls of Rei (Lilith) and Kaworu (Adam), but this makes it seem that Seele recovered Adam's soul in some completely different fashion, and it didn't remain with Adam at all.

Adam-based life should be thriving on Earth, as it is the life that originally germinated there.

Confirming that Adam is the SOL that was supposed to come here, and that it was Lilith's arrival that was the mistake.


So would this explain why they Seele said that they had to use Unit-01? Because Unit-01 is born from Lilith so Kowaru can't manipulate it?

No, Lilith was just a surrogate mother. Unit-01 was still a clone of Adam, and thus Kaworu could have presumably manipulated her had Yui somehow been in the same state as Kyoko. (Fat chance of that.)

[Ornette]

Now that is seriously weird. To where did the soul "fly off", and exactly how did they find it, let alone recover it? Hasn't the assumption always been that Seele recovered Adam's soul from her remains (perhaps from the very sample that Kaji steals for Gendo)? We know thats how Gendo recovers the souls of Rei (Lilith) and Kaworu (Adam), but this makes it seem that Seele recovered Adam's soul in some completely different fashion, and it didn't remain with Adam at all.
Maybe the soul that flew off was in a chunk of Adam, perhaps the same chunk that was reduced to embryo state. But that NGE2CI passage does kinda sound like it was a floating red dot that flew off somewhere. Perhaps a bit of clarification is needed in this section? Can we assume that it wasn't just a disembodied soul that "flew off" but was a part of adam that contained the soul (perhaps a piece of the core)?


Confirming that Adam is the SOL that was supposed to come here, and that it was Lilith's arrival that was the mistake.
Further sections also make this blatantly clear (8 more sections to go Reichu!!!). Especially the one concerning how the Earth's satelite was created (a confounding section that is).

[Shin-seiki]

No, Lilith was just a surrogate mother. Unit-01 was still a clone of Adam, and thus Kaworu could have presumably manipulated her had Yui somehow been in the same state as Kyoko. (Fat chance of that.)I dunno, I think what made Unit-01 special was that, while she was genetically based on the Adam template (like the other Evas), the physical substance of her body was Lilith-derived ("Lilith's bunshin, which Reichu prefers to translate as "Lilith's alter-ego"). Why else would SEELE consider her (as opposed to say, Unit-02) to be the indespensible alternative to utilizing Lilith, in their Plan-B?

[Reichu]

I dunno, I think what made Unit-01 special was that, while she was genetically based on the Adam template (like the other Evas), the physical substance of her body was Lilith-derived ("Lilith's bunshin, which Reichu prefers to translate as "Lilith's alter-ego").

I have my reasons, MWAH HAH HAH. (And you've already revealed them to the public, so they're not a secret anymore. :P )

Why else would SEELE consider her (as opposed to say, Unit-02) to be the indespensible alternative to utilizing Lilith, in their Plan-B?

Kozo: "THEY'RE GONNA USE YUI-KUN AS A MEDIUM ZOMG!!!"

Maybe? Actually, I'm not really sure. There's a crapload of stuff in that part of the movie I still need to execute relentless microanalysis upon.

Maybe the soul that flew off was in a chunk of Adam, perhaps the same chunk that was reduced to embryo state.

Again (I mention this a lot), translation botch. Should be "reduced to an egg". I guess bochan_bird decided to ignore it because they put "Sample A-01 as we know it" on the screen -- I suspect that A-01 was generated from said egg.

But that NGE2CI passage does kinda sound like it was a floating red dot that flew off somewhere.

KABLOOM!

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/Adam/death_C0015n.jpg

Well, who knows. Maybe one of those is Adam's.

Perhaps a bit of clarification is needed in this section? Can we assume that it wasn't just a disembodied soul that "flew off" but was a part of adam that contained the soul (perhaps a piece of the core)?

It just says ...tamashii wa dokoka ni tonde ita no de aru, which translates into English in a very straightforward manner. The verb, tobu, means "to fly, leap, spring, bound". Seems like the same thing that all of those other souls are doing.

Random: The suggestion regarding a piece of the core reminds me of radio chatter in #23 from the clean-up crew.

Radio B: EVA-00's core parts are heavily damaged from the high pressure resulting from the heat.

But I'm ambivalent as to whether or not this might be relevant. There are certain parallels between Adam's and EVA-00's kabooms -- e.g., their bodies glowing "white-hot" (to use Shin-seiki's description) with energy beforehand, and, rather interestingly, the fact that an object (or two) containing a child 'inexplicably' remained after the fact. (Although, ironically, those involved in the much bigger explosion fared rather better.)

EDIT: But come to think of it, whatever EVA-00 left behind apparently wasn't very important, since Ritsuko basically said, "take the plug back, trash the rest".

8 more sections to go Reichu!!!

NOOOOOoooooOOOOO!!!

Confirming that Adam is the SOL that was supposed to come here, and that it was Lilith's arrival that was the mistake.

"False successors", and "true successors"...

The only thing that makes me question this conclusion is this image where Adam and Kowaru's eggs are supposedly floating in the water.

If anyone else has any suggestions regarding this image's identity that takes into account the connection to Second Impact and the fact that this photograph is swapped out for the one depicting the Giant of Light, I'd love to hear them. After staring at the relevant bit of film in motion and the individual stills far more than you want to know, I'm 99.99999% positive about the "interconnected eggs of Adam and Kaworu" bit. The relevant link (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-23/23_reiquarium.html#cut317-30), and a very rough paint-over job (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-23/23_C317_npc_30_cleanup.jpg) that nonetheless might make it easier to see the eggies..

They also show the image as Ritsuko says that "Rei was the only one born with a soul", which is sorta bizarre. But it reminds me of the fact that Kaworu counts among those born without, altho this might be my brain playing tricks on me. :ph34r:

[kaos]

Quicky @ kaos: Misato tells us in #25' that Adam was reduced to an egg as a result of 2I.But then I don't get why CI says that Adam was torn appart? After all, It's not like Misato/Kaji haven't been wrong about Adam/Lilith before.

[Reichu]

But then I don't get why CI says that Adam was torn appart? After all, It's not like Misato/Kaji haven't been wrong about Adam/Lilith before.

The CI itself says, "she blew apart and degenerated/retrogressed" -- how are you supposed to take that in a way that will allow for both? How can a body that blows apart retrogress into anything? My current best offering -- trying to sort through the straightforward and the cipher as best as possible -- is: Even though the main body exploded, she left an egg behind from which her body could once again be generated.

If anyone is in the mood for further bizarro Reichu offerings, here's one idea that popped into my head: Tabris' genesis establishes the mysterious concept of "gene-diving"; and, considering the connection (literally, and otherwise) between egg and egg, maybe Adam used the same sort of "gene-diving" mechanism to, uh, fertilize herself before she 'sploded as an act of self-preservation (in a sense); and, somehow, manage to generate some kind of "buffer" protecting these two miniscule objects from her own inevitable self-destruction.

[Blader5489]

Again (I mention this a lot), translation botch. Should be "reduced to an egg". I guess bochan_bird decided to ignore it because they put "Sample A-01 as we know it" on the screen -- I suspect that A-01 was generated from said egg.


I feel really stupid for having nothing else to contribute (right now), but I thought I should point out that A-01 doesn't refer to the amount of Adam samples there are (I always assumed there was just the one, otherwise there wouldn't have been so much importance placed on it) or how they're numbered - rather, A-01 is used to label Adam as the First Angel.

I got the idea from here (http://www.kicks-hobby.com/component/page,shop.browse/root,1ab985de92ceac74f8ba29ced65a67d4/category_id,96/option,com_phpshop/Itemid,38), which labels Sachiel being A-03 (Third Angel), Tabris as A-17 (Seventeenth Angel), and so on.

Just thought I should correct that small detail.

[Jabberwok]

Perhaps the translation "embyonic state" may be better to allow one to wrap their head around this. Imagine for second...

Assuming that Adam didn't tang herself (which would probably look hilarious) her soul should still be hanging out in her corpse after her death. When Sachiel self-detonated, wasn't there some radio chatter during the clean up refering to like 99.8% mass destroyed? So we could assume that whatever chunk of meat Adam's soul is bound to will be quite small.

Now, that Adamic material is quite resiliant. Israfel had 24%(?) of her(their? i mean there are two halves) mass destroyed by an N2 and regened back to full in a week. If regening from 75% takes a week of just hanging out at the beach, regening from 0.2%, or less, may take more drastic measures.

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume that the grape-sized chunk left over may have reformed itself into an ovum to begin regenerating. It seems to be working out for her pretty well by Ep:08; she's spent a decade-and-a-half frozen in dura-bakelite with her soul stuck in a seperate Lilim-shaped vessel and she's still been able to regen upto a 3-4 week old fetus.

For some reason, I'm hesitant to offer an explanation for Tabris in this scenario. Having the tiny bit that survives also be the bit that the Lilim genes 'dived' into seems... I don't know, too convenient. I'm not saying 'no', but I'm not ready to say 'yes', either.


[edit]
I got the idea from here (http://www.kicks-hobby.com/component/page,shop.browse/root,1ab985de92ceac74f8ba29ced65a67d4/category_id,96/option,com_phpshop/Itemid,38),
That's always been my take on the designator; I just never had any other examples.

Good find.

[Reichu]

Perhaps the translation "embyonic state" may be better to allow one to wrap their head around this.

It quite plainly says "egg" (tamago).

Assuming that Adam didn't tang herself (which would probably look hilarious)

Adam tanged herself...?

her soul should still be hanging out in her corpse after her death.

The souls of Adam-based lifeforms hang out in their cores. You destroy the core, the soul is released, and the body becomes lifeless in that soulless sort of way. (Assuming we don't get a huge explosion instead.) They operate on a different principle from Lilim-based lifeforms, wherein souls appear to be contained by the body as a whole, but seem to have a "default" location, the solar plexus.

Just for some random notes: Rei 3 returns to Lilith (who doesn't seem to have any core to speak of) via the solar plexus region. This is also the location of the core on Adam, the Evas, and Sachiel. The latter is the most humanoid Apostle; the two who are more vaguely so, Israfel and Zeruel, also have their cores in approximately the "right place". Also, when Rei tangifies Misato, she faces the upper "chunk", and Yui ingests Gendo's upper body (but leaves the rest behind).

When Sachiel self-detonated, wasn't there some radio chatter during the clean up refering to like 99.8% mass destroyed? So we could assume that whatever chunk of meat Adam's soul is bound to will be quite small.

Adam's soul was not necessarily bound to anything. The CI says quite plainly that it "flew off somewhere" -- is there anything in the show that contradicts this?

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume that the grape-sized chunk left over may have reformed itself into an ovum to begin regenerating.

Where do you get "grape-sized" from?

It seems to be working out for her pretty well by Ep:08; she's spent a decade-and-a-half frozen in dura-bakelite with her soul stuck in a seperate Lilim-shaped vessel and she's still been able to regen upto a 3-4 week old fetus.

The regenerating part was passive -- "It's BEEN regenerated this far", said Kaji. No soul, no Fruit of Life, no Super Solenoid Engine, no regeneration... unless the Lilim "tried the revive the god on their own".

For some reason, I'm hesitant to offer an explanation for Tabris in this scenario. Having the tiny bit that survives also be the bit that the Lilim genes 'dived' into seems... I don't know, too convenient. I'm not saying 'no', but I'm not ready to say 'yes', either.

Genes "dived" and "physically fused" at the point that things started going wrong. The end product was, apparently, an egg containing Tabris. What could they mean by "physically fusing"? Well, I mentioned immaculate conception before for a reason. :P Kaworu was "born from Adam" on the day of 2I, after all...

I feel really stupid for having nothing else to contribute (right now), but I thought I should point out that A-01 doesn't refer to the amount of Adam samples there are (I always assumed there was just the one, otherwise there wouldn't have been so much importance placed on it) or how they're numbered - rather, A-01 is used to label Adam as the First Angel.

At the moment, this seems a little fishy to me. The first reason that comes to mind is this rather cryptic bit in #07:

MAN:
The revised budget for the sample collection passed quite easily, didn't it?

IKARI:
The Committee's main concern is for their own survival.
They aren't stingy when their own lives are at stake.

MAN:
After all, the basis of their argument was that no more Angels would appear.

...which really makes me wonder what "sample" is supposed to mean. Kaji also uses the phrase "Adam sample" in #21'. Bizarrely enough, on the scans in #04, Rei is designated a "Sample 0001". At any rate, right now I'm not sure how much stock I want to put into something exclusively from the "Shito XX" figures, but thanks for pointing it out. (Anyone have big pics of the boxes?)

[Jabberwok]

*.*
Fair enough. In my defense though...

(1)-I based the mad conjecture that an Angel's soul could "linger" off of Tabris. It seems most assume Adam's soul was salvaged from the resultant mess into Gendo's sweaty palm. I see the 17th's death as a termination of Lilim based life functions, but if I am to assume a core was crushed as well, then I concede the point.

(2)-The prior was used to joke about Adam tanging herself, based on my (faulty) assumption that to get a soul to seperate, you need either: NERV science-based voodoo, or AATF meta-science-based voodoo.

(3)-When I read "flew off somewhere" I thought small bits of flesh with a soul stuck to the largest.

(4)-Egg vs Embryo. I assumed both were relatively accurate translations for the same word. Given by brief track record on the matter, I will refrain from commenting on any Nihongo from now on.

(5)-Grape-sized was extrapolated from fetal development relating to (1) with the resulting gibs reforming into an ovum. In hindsight a grape now seems too large.

(6)-"Physically fusing". I'm not going to lie to you-- When I hear/read this, the first thing that comes to mind is "The forbidden fusion of...". Maybe you know where I'm going with this, maybe not. Either way, I won't; I've made enough stupid comments here and elsewhere today.

[Reichu]

(1)-I based the mad conjecture that an Angel's soul could "linger" off of Tabris. It seems most assume Adam's soul was salvaged from the resultant mess into Gendo's sweaty palm.

Had to get there somehow. No point in fusing the Seeds of Life if you don't have Adam's soul, and thus the Fruit of Life -- you aren't complimenting anything without. High energy readings from Lilith (= S2 Engine) once she wakes up, Kaworu=Adam showing face later (physically and metaphysically; "You were there all along...?), blah blah blah...

I see the 17th's death as a termination of Lilim based life functions, but if I am to assume a core was crushed as well, then I concede the point.

No way to know what Kaworu has in there, but, being filthied with Katsuragi genes and all, probably not a good reference for Mom and the sibs. If vis soul occupies the body on Lilim principles, then the image of Gendo salvaging from Kaworu's disembodied head seems to be irresistable. :snork:

(2)-The prior was used to joke about Adam tanging herself, based on my (faulty) assumption that to get a soul to seperate, you need either: NERV science-based voodoo, or AATF meta-science-based voodoo.

"Voodoo" is the word...

(4)-Egg vs Embryo. I assumed both were relatively accurate translations for the same word. Given by brief track record on the matter, I will refrain from commenting on any Nihongo from now on.

In my own limited track record (and fishing at the sources I have available), I've never seen tamago used to refer specifically to embryos -- there are words for that like taiga. Tamago is just "egg", like a chicken egg, or the sort of things that hatches -- a slightly different concept. I think that bochan_bird was taking an unnecessary liberty here. (He did the same thing to the RCB entry where it suggested that Kaworu was an Angel captured by Seele in an egg state.)

(6)-"Physically fusing". I'm not going to lie to you-- When I hear/read this, the first thing that comes to mind is "The forbidden fusion of...". Maybe you know where I'm going with this, maybe not.

Maybe not. Although because of you, I'm going to have to check the Japanese later to see if the same word is used both times. :P You're giving my brain strange ideas whether you realize it or not. Fufufu.

I dunno if people followed or not, but my own suggestion is that: As a result of mysterious physical contact between mortal and immortal :makes spooky sound:, genes 'dive' into a previously unfertilized ovum, "physically fuse", and, voila, you have yourself a hybrid bastard-child. The idea seems to have held up to months of 'laboratory work' rather well, but I guess it might sound sort of bizarre.

[Reichu]

Staying up too late to bring you transration of the next section. I feel tired... You kids better appreciate this. I take no responsibility for any stupid mistakes at this time.

(First Ancestral Race are next! YESSSSSSSS!!!! :does the Man Rei dance: )

*****

17. Dead Sea Scrolls

A. Publicly Released Information

Data unavailable.

B. Generally Recognized Information

The prophetic text in which the times of the Angels' appearances are recorded.

C. Confidential Information

Seele possess a vast amount of wealth, and, consequently, they had one face as a patron foundation of the arts and research. The Artificial Evolution Laboratory, Gehirn, etc., were funded entirely by Seele. Perhaps because of their origins as a religious organization, Seele often managed the funding support for investigations into the relics of their own faith. Among these, something was excavated that marked a significant turning point for both Seele and humankind: The Secret Dead Sea Scrolls.

D. In-Depth Information

The Secret Dead Sea Scrolls are a scripture written by the First Ancestral Race, a manual regarding the Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity) and the usage of the Spear of Longinus security device, possibly while applying a scheme at the time of use to a religious group's own doctrines. They are written prophecy, in so far as they remain active even in the current day according to a design of the past.

Until then, Seele had only fragmentary knowledge of the scrolls' contents and existence, but they had never imagined that the scrolls might actually exist, contain meaningful prophecies, and turn up in near-perfect condition. They were sent to headquarters promptly, upon which the actual truth was skewed and immediately covered up. The parts of little consequence, later released to the public, were called the Dead Sea Scrolls, whereas what Seele made off with were dubbed the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls.

Footnotes for 17.

17-D. This first sentence is long and convoluted (to someone of my own stature, anyway). With regards to the first part ("Ura Shikai Bunsho wa, Daiichi Shiso Minzoku ga Seimei no Tane (Shigen no Sonzai) to, hoan souchi de aru Longinus no Yari no tsukaikata o shisushita manual..."), the status of plurals is ambiguous. Do the Scrolls describe all Seeds of Life (and Spears), or just the ones that they're packed up with? Assuming that both Adam and Lilith have their own Scrolls, is this sentence referring to both of them collectively, or the ones that were discovered first (Adam's)? I also dunno if the "manual" part is supposed to be referring to the Seimei no Tane (Seed of Life) together with the Spear; the Japanese word order and grammatical structure is confuzzling me. There's stuff about Seeds (one or more) written in them thar Scrolls, it says that much.

I'm not sure what the bit about "applying (a) scheme [plan, etc.] at the time of use" is supposed to mean. Having trouble with this one.

"They are written prophecy...": Another iffy one. Just FYI, "design" is an artistic rendition of the same word as "scheme" in the previous sentence (hokakusho). In a future draft, I'll hopefully feel inspired such that I can use the same word both times.

By the "actual truth being skewed", we are, of course, talking about jouhou sousa, "manipulation of information", "intelligence rigging", "PR spin", or, as ADV had Fuyutsuki phrase it, "blatant massaging". :P

"Ato ni kouhyou sareta juuyou de nai mono o Shinkai Bunsho, Seele ga mochisatta mono o, Ura Shinkai Bunsho to iu. ": I did ask the folks at AnimeLyrics about this one, after being bothered to tears by the tenuous nature of my transration and suspicions that rockthing's had its problems, as well. Still boggled about why FAR documents would be linked to the Dead Sea region in the first place, and the apparent implications that the released portions are the real-life DSS -- uh, what?

[Z Metalla]

Wow, you're just coughing these up like there's no tomorrow recently. XD Don't overexert yourself TOO much, now. ^^;

Still... the Ar-- er, FAR entry is next, you say? I'm gonna concur with that "YESSS!", there. :3

[CanonRAP]

Keep up the good work! At this rate, we might just be back on the commentaries during the summer . w00t ^_^.

Off-topic, after reading that post, I get the vibe to call Kaworu "Tama-chan" from now on :).

[Reichu]

Keep up the good work! At this rate, we might just be back on the commentaries during the summer . w00t .
"N-nan desu 'tte?!?" Well... I'll see what I can do.

Off-topic, after reading that post, I get the vibe to call Kaworu "Tama-chan" from now on .
WAHHHH I DON'T GET IT!!!

Wow, you're just coughing these up like there's no tomorrow recently. XD Don't overexert yourself TOO much, now. ^^;
I'm "making up for lost time". For some reason, these are a LOT easier to do when the forum is actually, you know, ALIVE. Like I said -- all according to my design. >::D

Still... the Ar-- er, FAR entry is next, you say? I'm gonna concur with that "YESSS!", there. :3
Yes, something fundamentally cool about a whole species that probably looked like miniature Adams/Evas. Not nearly as much about them here as I'd like, but it's quite better than the ambiguous "SOMEone" that we have with the show alone...

We get additional tidbits in further entries, though. Lilith is next!

*****

18. First Ancestral Race

A. Publicly Released Information

Data unavailable.

B. Generally Recognized Information

The entities thought to have created the Angels. The specifics of their intention are unclear.

C. Confidential Information

They were the first extraterrestrial intelligence. The humanoid species, referred to as the First Ancestral Race, started to spread Seeds of Life throughout the Milky Way Galaxy. As of yet, we do not know their motives or for what they were aiming.

It is becoming evident that multiple Seeds were disseminated. Eventually, by force of sheer bad luck, two accidentally landed on the same planet: Adam of the White Moon, and Lilith of the Black Moon.

D. In-Depth Information

Within a carrier known as a "Moon", the First Ancestral Race fabricated a perfect cavity (also a moon), at which point the Seed, or "Progenitor Entity", would be placed inside and sent out into space. That was their technology, and, from the perspective of Angels, humans, and others, they might be called gods.

Footnotes for 18.

18-D. "Also a moon" (kore mo tsuki): Literally "this is also (a) moon". :shrug: Don't look at me.

"Others": Ambiguous. It reads, "shito ya jinrui kara sureba...", the separator ya being a particle that connects items in an incomplete list. "I like eating broccoli, bratwurst, and stuff." The ya implies the existence of "others", but it doesn't specify who.

"...from the perspective of Angels, humans, and others, they might be called gods" ("...shito ya jinrui kara sureba, karera wa kami tomo ieru)": Hmm. Reminds me of Rei's lines, "Are people something created by kami-sama? Are people something created by people?" Maybe I'm just imagining things. :P

[thewayneiac]

"Ato ni kouhyou sareta juuyou de nai mono o Shinkai Bunsho, Seele ga mochisatta mono o, Ura Shinkai Bunsho to iu. ": The stuff about the (non-Secret) Dead Sea Scrolls in the last sentence is extremely tentative. rockthing's take was, "Later, it was announced that the Dead Sea Scrolls contained nothing of importance. The item carried away by Seele is called the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls." However, the sentence structure is, from what I can tell, not quite cooperating with this interpretation, but I'm having trouble putting my finger on this one. The current transration is my best at the moment. (Note that the second part of the sentence, regarding Seele taking away something called the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls, is quite straightforward language-wise.)

Could this be saying that they published the scrolls that were of no consequence, and kept the rest secret?

Off-topic, after reading that post, I get the vibe to call Kaworu "Tama-chan" from now on .

WAHHHH I DON'T GET IT!!!

CannonRap seems to be making a strange "Love Hina" reference. The flying Onsen-Turtle is named Tama-chan and this is in fact short for Tamago-chan. (I can recall no explanation in the anime or manga as to why the turtle has a name that could be roughly translated as "Eggy-kins". Perhaps because turtles and eggs both have shells?) So anyway, I think he want's to name the guy who was born from an egg after a turtle that was named "egg".

Within a carrier known as a "Moon", the First Ancestral Race fabricated a perfect cavity (also a moon), at which point the Seed, or "Progenitor Entity", would be placed inside and sent out into space. That was their technology, and, from the perspective of Angels, humans, and others, they might be called gods.

............................

18-D. "Also a moon" (kore mo tsuki): Literally "this is also (a) moon". :shrug: Don't look at me.

So the big sphere is called "Moon" and the hollow space inside it is also called "moon"?

Why does this remind me of "There's a moon in the sky called the moon"?

[LuigiHann]

What are the implications of the Japanese word "moon"? Same as English, a satellite? They could just mean it was all built in orbit O_o

[Mr. Tines]

"Others": Ambiguous. It reads, "shito ya jinrui kara sureba...", the separator ya being a particle that connects items in an incomplete list. "I like eating broccoli, bratwurst, and stuff." The ya implies the existence of "others", but it doesn't specify who.

Treens? Radeligians? Klingons? Other such quasi-human descendents of the seed program? (But probably no Palainians or Velantians in this parallel) Maybe the "merely-posthuman" members of the FAR?

Reminds me of Rei's lines, "Are people something created by kami-sama? Are people something created by people?" Maybe I'm just imagining things. :P

Like the Fifth Men begat the Sixth (or the Fourth Men, the Fifth)? I did get you the collected Stapledon, didn't I?

[CanonRAP]

FAR stuff

More yays ^_^

Could this be saying that they published the scrolls that were of no consequence, and kept the rest secret?

That seems to be the case here. The prophecies about the coming of the Angels and 2/3I are spirited away to Seele HQ (wherever that may be), and whatever else (if there is*) was publicly released.

*Where were the DSS found? And if the whole thing was scribed by the FAR, I don't think Seele would've released anything at all.

CanonRap seems to be making a strange "Love Hina" reference. The flying Onsen-Turtle is named Tama-chan and this is in fact short for Tamago-chan. (I can recall no explanation in the anime or manga as to why the turtle has a name that could be roughly translated as "Eggy-kins". Perhaps because turtles and eggs both have shells?) So anyway, I think he want's to name the guy who was born from an egg after a turtle that was named "egg".

Yes, that was a LH reference. And I think I'll use "Tama" as Kaworu's nickname from now on...not that anyone will get it ;).

Oh, and BTW, in an omake page in one of the manga volumes, there was an explanation why the turtle is called "Tamago".

EDIT: Ah, forget what I said. The page I'm referring to is a page in a translated import version of Volume 4, about how readers (of the translated version) were wondering why the turtle was called an egg.

So AFAIK, only Akatmatsu knows why it's "Tamago Onsen".

So the big sphere is called "Moon" and the hollow space inside it is also called "moon"?

Why does this remind me of "There's a moon in the sky called the moon"?

I found this odd as well. Shouldn't the cavity be just called...a cave?

[Shin-seiki]

But then I don't get why CI says that Adam was torn appart? After all, It's not like Misato/Kaji haven't been wrong about Adam/Lilith before.You're not taking into account the context of this line; Misato is explaining to Shinji all the secret stuff she found out about 2I (highly relevant to her interests, you know), and what SEELE/NERV have been up to all along. Misato started out as just another mushroom-minion ("kept in the dark, and raised on manure"), but over the course of the series she figures out that she is being lied to by her bosses. Misato's expository rant to Shinji in #25' is the pay-off for this whole story thread of her and Kaji's pursuit of the real truth, so it's not to be compared to her previous mistaken conclusions concerning what is going on with Adam, etc.

[Ornette]

I think what the CI is saying is there is a "moon" (i.e. white moon, black moon) that was inside some huge spherical chunk of rock that is similar to earth's satelite, which just happens to be called a moon. The wording is a little confusing and this is also mentioned again in the geofront section I think. But essentially, the word "moon" is used to describe 2 different things.

[Reichu]

Just going to post the next section right now; heavy-handed responses that are probably only read by an indeterminate percentage of visitors can come later.

And... Second Impact is next! Figures that the second half of the CI is the coolest, right? But don't go ignoring the first half (- a couple of popular tidbits), now... ;) Things in there are at risk of getting neglected -- sort of like the first half of the series itself, in a lot of ways. (Or maybe it's all in my head.)

*****

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C101_mid.jpg

19. The Second Angel

A. Publicly Released Information

Data unavailable.

B. Generally Recognized Information

The Second Angel, known as Lilith. She came from the moon that carried the Black Moon (the former became Earth's satellite). Giant, or First, Impact was caused by the contact between the Moon and Earth.

C. Confidential Information

The white giant crucified in Terminal Dogma, who bore life such as monkeys and dolphins, and, as the final form, Lilim –- that is, humankind. In addition, the LCL liquid is the body fluid of Lilith.

D. In-Depth Information

Lilith had no soul. Moreover, her soul has been residing within Rei. Many copies of Rei's body were made, but that is the reason why only one of Rei herself can exist at any given time. Even though Rei was copied from Yui's flesh, this was not the case for her soul.

Footnotes for 19.

19-B. Kuroi Tsuki o hakobu, tsuki (chikyuu no eisei to natta) kara kita.: This sentence (the second) seems to be more literally, "She came from the moon (that became [achieved the state of being] Earth's satellite) that carried the Black Moon." Uhhh... okay.

19-C. Terminal Dogma ni haritsuke ni sarete iru shiroi kyojin de ari, saru ya iruka, saishuu keitai to shite Lilim, sunawachi jinrui o umidashita.: The arrangement and structure of the second phrase here is a bit convoluted to me, and I came up with two possibilities. I went to the Animelyrics form to pop a quick questions anyway, so I threw this one in, too, for the hell of it: "Is this saying that monkeys, dolphins, humans, and those implied by ya are all 'Lilim' and that the examples mentioned are 'final/ultimate forms' (but humankind is foremost among them), or that monkeys, dolphins, etc., are life born from Lilith, but Lilim=humanity is the final form?" The latter is the one I was leaning towards, and that seemed to be the conclusion. It's interesting, though, that of all Lilith-based life, the only ones besides humans that are mentioned by name are 'advanced' ones like monkeys (alternatively 'apes', which are a totally different thing; not sure which one to use here yet) and dolphins. (Hey, where are the parrots and crows?!? MAMMALIAN BIAS!!!)

19-D. I dunno why the first sentence is in past tense. I need the learn the technicalities of these things.

Initially had trouble with the third sentence. (Rei no nikutai no copy wa ikura demo tsukureta ga, Rei sonomono ga tsune ni ittai shika sonzai shienakatta no wa kono tame de aru.) My initial take was sort of dodgy, primarily in that I went with the wrong ittai. This version incorporates the correction, along with 'suggestions' M_Ryuuji @ AnimeLyrics made by posting a translation with no real explanation. Oh well -- I understand the sentence now, so whatever works.

In the fourth sentence, I'm not sure if we just want to stick to the straight "Yui's body" ("flesh" sounded nice here, and it's the "fleshly" word for body, nikutai).

[Ornette]

19-B. Kuroi Tsuki o hakobu, tsuki (chikyuu no eisei to natta) kara kita.: This sentence (the second) seems to be more literally, "She came from the moon (that became [achieved the state of being] Earth's satellite) that carried the Black Moon." Uhhh... okay.
Yeah, this is more of that "moon" (white/black/geofront) inside a moon (rocky spherical object like a small planet). The CI is the only place I know of that elaborates on this.

"Is this saying that monkeys, dolphins, humans, and those implied by ya are all 'Lilim' and that the examples mentioned are 'final/ultimate forms' (but humankind is foremost among them), or that monkeys, dolphins, etc., are life born from Lilith, but Lilim=humanity is the final form?" The latter is the one I was leaning towards, and that seemed to be the conclusion.
I'm leaning toward the latter as well, it seems to make more sense as a whole if Lilim specifically meant the H Sapien species as opposed to all life created by LCL. But this does bring up an interesting notion of what "human/humanity" applies to in the larger sense. Adam's progeny being considered "humans", are dolphins and monkeys considered "humans" too?

Third sentence might sound a little dodgy at this time, but I think I follow along, even if I'm not sure how to best articulate it at the moment: It's just referring to how Rei's existence as a whole can continue because of the huge stock of bodies. Will try to tidy up later.
This was one of the sections that kept going back and forth between me and rockthing, mainly a "WTF is this supposed to mean?". I get the feeling that they're trying to tell us something about the nature of Rei but in a very ambiguous way...

[Reichu]

Yeah, this is more of that "moon" (white/black/geofront) inside a moon (rocky spherical object like a small planet). The CI is the only place I know of that elaborates on this.

It's rather boggling me ATM, but I'm going to wait until I process the rest before I jump to any conclusions...

I'm leaning toward the latter as well, it seems to make more sense as a whole if Lilim specifically meant the H Sapien species as opposed to all life created by LCL. But this does bring up an interesting notion of what "human/humanity" applies to in the larger sense. Adam's progeny being considered "humans", are dolphins and monkeys considered "humans" too?

I wouldn't think so, even without the CI, due to the tidbits from Shamshel and Sandalphon tying into the "human race that abandons human form" dealio -- Adam birthes humans of the same type as she, but they are 'designed' to "imagine" unique forms for themselves. The language here, as well, literally reads something like, "monkeys and [ya] dolphins, Lilim as the final form, i.e. humankind". They seem to be making a list that includes the entries "monkeys, dolphins, and Lilim as the final form", with sunawachi jinrui to be, in translation, latched onto "Lilim" as "i.e., humankind". Mmm, isn't Japanese fun? ^_^

This was one of the sections that kept going back and forth between me and rockthing, mainly a "WTF is this supposed to mean?". I get the feeling that they're trying to tell us something about the nature of Rei but in a very ambiguous way...

I actually suspect that it's putting much of Ritsuko's rant from #23 into different words. The first part of the sentence is rather unambiguously, "Countless [or 'big, unspecified number'] copies of Rei's body were made, but..." And the rest is like, "it is for this reason that | Rei herself [subject] | was able to exist only..."

Hmm, now that I look at it again, maybe this ittai is the one that means "one/a single body" after all (it also has idiomatic usages, annoying enough), so "Countless copies of Rei's body were made, but it is for this reason that Rei herself was able to exist only in one body at any given time". ...Huh? (That "but" is throwing me off...)

[thewayneiac]

19-B. Kuroi Tsuki o hakobu, tsuki (chikyuu no eisei to natta) kara kita.: This sentence (the second) seems to be more literally, "She came from the moon (that became [achieved the state of being] Earth's satellite) that carried the Black Moon." Uhhh... okay.

Why do I get the idea that the good folks at Gainax are hiding their mouths behind their hands and giggling at us about now? Okay, so the Moon came flying up and went into orbit and spit out the Black Moon which fell to Earth initiating First Impact. Then I guess that Adam's arrival didn't cause any impact. But what happened to the Moon that carried the White Moon? Did it fly off after it spat out its cargo? Shouldn't we have two Moons in orbit as well as two underground if each Moon was carried by a Moon?

This:
Within a carrier known as a "Moon", the First Ancestral Race fabricated a perfect cavity (also a moon), at which point the Seed, or "Progenitor Entity", would be placed inside and sent out into space.
is certainly describing the standard proceedure for sending out all seeds of life not just Lilith.

[Shin-seiki]

Why do I get the idea that the good folks at Gainax are hiding their mouths behind their hands and giggling at us about now? Okay, so the Moon came flying up and went into orbit and spit out the Black Moon which fell to Earth initiating First Impact. Then I guess that Adam's arrival didn't cause any impact. But what happened to the Moon that carried the White Moon? Did it fly off after it spat out its cargo? Shouldn't we have two Moons in orbit as well as two underground if each Moon was carried by a Moon?

This:

is certainly describing the standard proceedure for sending out all seeds of life not just Lilith.Huh?! Adam made a controlled, soft landing, while Lilith crash-landed here (and maybe that was no accident, btw, perhaps she was deliberately seeking to wreck whatever Adam had accomplished as far as "prepping" this world for Angelic-type life forms). I don't know where you get the idea the Moon spat out the Black Moon from orbit, since it says there was (presumably catastrophic) contact between the earth and Lilith's moon.

[Mr. Tines]

The moon stuff is intriguing. One would have thought that with the scrith-like shell (at least in its neutrino opacity) wouldn't have needed the level of passive armour that would be useful for physical and radiation shielding of an interstellar vessel.

Now how about this take -

Adam arrives on the outer one of a pair of rocky worlds near their parent star which are accumulating atmosphere and ocean. Lilith lands on one of a pair of smaller (about 10% the mass) worlds, further out and cooler, so able to gather a smaller amount of volatiles.

Alas, the latter gets slingshotted by interactions with the major gas giant in the system into a collision course with the former. Big Crunch. Desiccated mantle material, about 1% of the total combined body sprays into a ring that accumulates into a satellite around what has now become the larger of the two inner worlds with atmosphere.

(Hey, where are the parrots and crows?!? MAMMALIAN BIAS!!!)

Hey, where are the squid and octopi?!? VERTEBRATE BIAS!!! :lol:

[thewayneiac]

Huh?! Adam made a controlled, soft landing, while Lilith crash-landed here (and maybe that was no accident, btw, perhaps she was deliberately seeking to wreck whatever Adam had accomplished as far as "prepping" this world for Angelic-type life forms). I don't know where you get the idea the Moon spat out the Black Moon from orbit, since it says there was (presumably catastrophic) contact between the earth and Lilith's moon.

Most of that is quibbling. The Moon must have spat out the Black Moon at some point either before, during or after First Impact or it would still be inside. The Moon at some point became ensnared by Earth's gravity. It's not clear whether it means the impact was caused by contact with the Moon or with the Black Moon, though I'll admit that your interpretation is perhaps more likely. The rest of my question stands. What became of the Moon that brought the White Moon here? It must have disgorged it before getting close enough to become ensnared by Earth's gravity or we would have two moons.

All this talk of Moons inside Moons strikes me as being rather Velakovskian (Venus was spat out of Jupiter). I wonder if Anno is familiar with him? I hope he wouldn't borrow from something that low rent.

[Reichu]

maybe that was no accident, btw, perhaps she was deliberately seeking to wreck whatever Adam had accomplished as far as "prepping" this world for Angelic-type life forms.

That would seem to be at odds with the talk of "bad luck"...

There's going to be more about the circumstances of the Seeds' arrival and 'moons' in the Geofront section. Too bad it's No. 24 and I'm doing these in order, eh?
http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/dog_laughing.gif

I have no comments about the "moon within a moon" stuff at the moment. "My brain is empty."

Hey, where are the squid and octopi?!? VERTEBRATE BIAS!!! :lol:

"Please, think of the octopods..." Stupidly enough, I did, but I decided not to mention them because my knowledge of their intelligence is rather vague -- I remember them being "up there", but the advanced psittacines* and Corvus are much more familiar, and were hence convenient exclusions to ***** about.

Squid? Didn't know about that one.

Just to be overly pedantic, the most correct plural form of "octopus" would be "octopodes". (I almost wish I hadn't learned that, 'cause now "octopi" bothers me every time I hear it. :lol: I'm peeved enough by anglo-pluralized Latin words as it is, let alone ones of Greek origin...)

* African greys, macaws, amazons, cockatoos, etc.

[BigBet]

scrith-like shell
Is 'Ringworld' worth reading?


Adam arrives on the outer one of a pair of rocky worlds near their parent star which are accumulating atmosphere and ocean. Lilith lands on one of a pair of smaller (about 10% the mass) worlds, further out and cooler, so able to gather a smaller amount of volatiles.

Alas, the latter gets slingshotted by interactions with the major gas giant in the system into a collision course with the former. Big Crunch. Desiccated mantle material, about 1% of the total combined body sprays into a ring that accumulates into a satellite around what has now become the larger of the two inner worlds with atmosphere.


Verry nice... a nice, scientific reason for the whole "Two Seed, One Planet" issue. The fact that our supposedly superior FAR were capable of such a enormous goof up never sat well with me, which is why I came up with the "Lilith as a Second Generation Seed" theory. This seems more plausible, but all the available info seems to be bent on supporting the "Oops.. it was an accident". ~Lame~ :(

[CanonRAP]

Is 'Ringworld' worth reading?

Is that a SF novel? Because I'm intrigued by the name alone.


Verry nice... a nice, scientific reason for the whole "Two Seed, One Planet" issue. The fact that our supposedly superior FAR were capable of such a enormous goof up never sat well with me, which is why I came up with the "Lilith as a Second Generation Seed" theory. This seems more plausible, but all the available info seems to be bent on supporting the "Oops.. it was an accident". ~Lame~ :(

It does seem odd that the FAR can predict and prophecise (sp?) so much, but can't seem to see that Lilith might go off somewhere she wasn't meant to.

Assuming that the Seeds are dormant during the 'travel' section, this sort of error shouldn't happen...unless there is some sort of 'steering' thing in the carrier-moon itself that can make it change course, but that isn't very plausible.

[CanonRAP]

Sorry for double-post...my browser is acting up lately, and I can't seem to edit my previous post.

On the topic of Lilith; off-topic*, could Lilith's third eye count as her Core surfacing? Something similar happens with Yui-sama earlier, and throughout 26' we see Spears shoved into Cores, whereas with Lilith it's the entire ToL.

I just wondered if anyone else thought about this.

*...ironic, I know.

(for the record, I typed this five times before getting frustrated and just pasting it into notepad)

[Mr. Tines]

Is that a SF novel?

Yes, by Larry Niven, c1970.

Is 'Ringworld' worth reading?

It's "mostly harmless", rather than great literature - big dumb object SF; characters get shown sights while the author tries to handle the internal contradictions he's written into his setting. The sequels are ... not as good. But it's a book to have read, if only to understand what Pratchett is jabbing mercilessly in Strata.

And now I return you to your previous topic...

[Reichu]

The fact that our supposedly superior FAR were capable of such a enormous goof up never sat well with me

"To err is human." ;)

Who knows. Maybe there's something big we're missing ATM, too. But even without the CI, the show itself pretty much lets us know that Adam and Lilith are from the same folks -- the talk about the data for the two Moons being "nearly identical" is what usually pops into my head first.

could Lilith's third eye count as her Core surfacing? Something similar happens with Yui-sama earlier, and throughout 26' we see Spears shoved into Cores, whereas with Lilith it's the entire ToL.

Beyond me... I've got nary a clear thought on the third eye right now (except very general things, and suspicions that it might link up in SOME way with the mysterious eyes on the ToL). Sahaquiel has a core placed at the "pupil" of vis "eye", but Lilith's setup just looks like a ordinary eye (albeit one sticking out of a vagina and with associated female genital elements).

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C375_e_mid.jpg (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C375_e_big.jpg)

:puts Canon's suggestion into "NGE WTF?!?" Blatant Speculation Box:

Can't promise I'll deliver Second Impact today, in case that's what you're hoping.

[ElDusto]

Beyond me... I've got nary a clear thought on the third eye right now (except very general things, and suspicions that it might link up in SOME way with the mysterious eyes on the ToL). Sahaquiel has a core placed at the "pupil" of vis "eye", but Lilith's setup just looks like a ordinary eye (albeit one sticking out of a vagina and with associated female genital elements).

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C375_e_mid.jpg (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C375_e_big.jpg)

Good thing I read that before posting. I was about to say, "WTF?! That looks like a vagina with an eyeball in it." I've watched EoE a billion times and never noticed that. Everytime I see it I think, "Oh damn, her head split open and an eyeball popped out." LOL

[Blader5489]

Beyond me... I've got nary a clear thought on the third eye right now (except very general things, and suspicions that it might link up in SOME way with the mysterious eyes on the ToL). Sahaquiel has a core placed at the "pupil" of vis "eye", but Lilith's setup just looks like a ordinary eye (albeit one sticking out of a vagina and with associated female genital elements).

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C375_e_mid.jpg (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C375_e_big.jpg)

:puts Canon's suggestion into "NGE WTF?!?" Blatant Speculation Box:

Can't promise I'll deliver Second Impact today, in case that's what you're hoping.


I'm wondering if that picture is supposed to foreshadow Shinji and Rei later on?

I initially thought the third eye, despite it's weird appearance for an eye, was just supposed to be symbolic of the Hindu legend in which (correct me if I'm wrong) Shiva opens it's third eye, which is supposed to signal the end of the world. However, if Lillith's third eye is supposed to be more of a vagina (or maybe both - it wouldn't exactly be out of place for Anno to symbolize two different ideas with one scene) than perhaps the Tree of Life (Shinji) merging with Lillith's third eye (Rei) is supposed to foreshadow Shinji and Rei's subsequent... uh, merging.

[Reichu]

Hexon.Arq brought up Shiva/Shakti (lingam/yoni) a while back (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4250352#post4250352). I never got around to reading up on it, but I bet you guys are right about a Hindu connection. (FYI, there's a Tree of Life in Hinduism too, if that has any relevance whatsoever.)

Just to cover a pet peeve of mine, though, since the terminology seems to be a source of confusion: The term vagina refers to the muscular canal that extends from the vestibule in the labia minora to the cervix (right below the uterus) -- it's an internal structure. Vulva refers to the external female genitalia on the whole (labia majora + minora, clitoris, etc.). The latter is manifesting on the forehead (and... hair??) of GNR, but the eyeball IS emerging from the former. ;)

Regarding Shinji and Rei... You know, as blatantly sexual as that scene is, I always thought that, at the same time, it really isn't. :P

[BigBet]

Alas, despite being from India, I can't really help you out with the Hindu (Hindi = the language, Hindu = the adjective for the religion) concepts. I'm a Christian.

Regarding Shinji and Rei... You know, as blatantly sexual as that scene is, I always thought that, at the same time, it really isn't. :P

You know, as blatantly a S/R shipper I may be, I agree with you. Thats' a bit too much... penetration :uhh:

[Reichu]

NOTICE: The folks at AnimeLyrics have been kind enough to continue providing pointers. I have to be somewhat selective in what I ask, but the item for tonight is some elucidation on the "DSS vs. SDSS" (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5783348&postcount=188) bit (the D entry). (Lothe tidied up another part of my transration when I provided the passage for context: "
You're breaking the sentence differently than in the Japanese, and I don't think there's a need to." Reichu's Brain: "Oh ****."

*****

(Hindi = the language, Hindu = the adjective for the religion)
"... Crap."

Alas, despite being from India, I can't really help you out with the Hindu concepts. I'm a Christian.
GAH! WORTHLESS!!!! (J/K) Can't ask anybody? ;)

You know, as blatantly a S/R shipper I may be
NoooOOOOOOOoooooo!!!!! ANYTHING BUT THAT!

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C124_anim_3.gif

I agree with you. Thats' a bit too much... penetration :uhh:
Well, that, and the fact that there's nothing in particular about the way they're acting that would imply "uh, huh huh huh, they're, like, doing it".* They're completely motionless, babbling about cryptic NGE things, and it's just totally metaphysical, man. Trippin', dude.

Misato's version of "unity" would be a bit different, I wager. http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/naughty.gif

* "OH AYANAMI!" "OH IKARI-KUN! IT FEELS SO GOOD!" "OH AYANAMI I LOVE YOU!" アアァ　ンッ ハハハハッ <3 <3 <3 :grope: :vigorous motion lines: :wet love:

[Magami No ER]

My little bit...yet again.
You know, besides the obviously vulva sybmbol the third eye is, it kinda reminds me of a...pink entry plug seat.
Sorry, not really anything worth thinking about, imo. But, better then just ignoring budding threads....
Well, that, and the fact that there's nothing in particular about the way they're acting that would imply "uh, huh huh huh, they're, like, doing it".* They're completely motionless, babbling about cryptic NGE things, and it's just totally metaphysical, man. Trippin', dude.
They look more like they've just done it, with Shinji...eh, not so aware of it.^^; He did, afterall, have the same face as Rei did when they were in reverse position in episode 5...

[BigBet]

Can't ask anybody?
Well.. I'll give my Gtalk friends list a go... But I don't expect much. You have to keep in mind, Hinduism is a very 'composite' religion, with different families worshipping different Gods and Godessess, of which Shaivism is but one aspect.

NoooOOOOOOOoooooo!!!!! ANYTHING BUT THAT!
Why not? It's kinky :redface:

[CanonRAP]

Beyond me... I've got nary a clear thought on the third eye right now (except very general things, and suspicions that it might link up in SOME way with the mysterious eyes on the ToL). Sahaquiel has a core placed at the "pupil" of vis "eye", but Lilith's setup just looks like a ordinary eye (albeit one sticking out of a vagina and with associated female genital elements).

I suppose that it could be just to bring Shinji inside GGNR. I mean, that's maybe oversimplifying it, but it's all I've got right now.

it wouldn't exactly be out of place for Anno to symbolize two different ideas with one scene) than perhaps the Tree of Life (Shinji) merging with Lillith's third eye (Rei) is supposed to foreshadow Shinji and Rei's subsequent... uh, merging.

Actually, when I first saw the 'merged S/R' scene, it didn't feel to me like anything overly sexual was being shown, or I should say, the 'context' of that scene isn't sexual. I mean, they're joined (in an interesting way), but then, they're floating in LCL, which initial distracted me more than naked Rei straddling Shinji.

[Reichu]

They look more like they've just done it

Isn't that more this scene?

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/mother/m26_C412_col-disc.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/mother/m26_C414_col-disc-6.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/mother/m26_C415_col-disc.jpg

(Altho, back to the "sexual and yet not" -- this scene has a strangely maternal quality for me. And, hey -- where did Kaworu come from?)

with Shinji...eh, not so aware of it.^^; He did, afterall, have the same face as Rei did when they were in reverse position in episode 5...

:looks: I'm not sure what you're referring to, but there IS this:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/mother/05_C210.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/mother/m26_C395B_col-disc-6.jpg

...and you've helped to put a lot of horrible ideas into my head as a result. Best left for more on-topic places, I wager.

[CanonRAP]

(Altho, back to the "sexual and yet not" -- this scene has a strangely maternal quality for me. And, hey -- where did Kaworu come from?)

*maybe he's trying to join in...*

:looks: I'm not sure what you're referring to, but there IS this:

...and you've helped to put a lot of horrible ideas into my head as a result. Best left for more on-topic places, I wager.

That does seem very similar, aside from the fact that the positions are reversed.

[Reichu]

*maybe he's trying to join in...*

"This time, I've got your clothes in me pocketses."

That does seem very similar, aside from the fact that the positions are reversed.

Yeah -- check them out from the waist up, especially. (Arms, and the faces!)

But this is supposed to be about the CI, isn't it? ;)

[Shin-seiki]

Yeah -- check them out from the waist up, especially. (Arms, and the faces!)

But this is supposed to be about the CI, isn't it? ;)It brings to mind how the shot of Asuka astride Shinji at the start of Pre-3II represents the psuedo-fulfillment of Asuka's intention to get it on with Shinji in Misato's bedroom in #09; here we see a representation of the fulfillment of Rei's desire "to become one" with Shinji as well.

[Magami No ER]

this scene has a strangely maternal quality for me.
Agreed.

And, hey -- where did Kaworu come from?
The bigger question is why must he wear his clothes in that scene?

:looks: I'm not sure what you're referring to, but there IS this:
Yeah, that.
Oh, I missed something...
(except very general things, and suspicions that it might link up in SOME way with the mysterious eyes on the ToL).
The smaller many eyes go into the one big "eye"....hm...what special haploid cells come to mind when you say that, eh? ^^;

[CanonRAP]

"This time, I've got your clothes in me pocketses."

"Hehe."

Yeah -- check them out from the waist up, especially. (Arms, and the faces!)

But this is supposed to be about the CI, isn't it? ;)

Well, we're supposed to talk about the latest topic, and that happens to be Lilith...

I mean, what exactly about the CI can we talk about :P ?

[Ornette]

I spent all weekend installing linux on a Thinkpad T60p (fingerprint reader rocks!). Then writing up an installation guide to post to tuxmobile. So now that I've gone as off topic as possible...
Well, we're supposed to talk about the latest topic, and that happens to be Lilith...

I mean, what exactly about the CI can we talk about ?
So yeah, the moon inside a moon thing. Although there's nothing that says Adam couldn't of have ejected the white moon out of the larger rocky moon right before the white moon landed on Earth, it just doesn't make as much sense to me.

As Mr. Tines brought up, the white moon itself is sufficiently shielded against stellar radiation, and possibly even collisions with smaller interstellar bodies. The notion that the large outer "moon" is only a shell that is discarded before the seed lands in its destination seems to imply that this outer "moon" is only needed for the journey. If it isn't there to guard from radiation, maybe it's to guard from major collisions?

I'm still not 100% convinced. Perhaps, the large rocky moon surves multiple purposes. During the journey, it adds a large protective buffer against collisions with smaller stellar bodies. When the seed arrives at its destination, this large moon is used as "raw material" to be used as the seed sees fit. Why not just stick all the raw material inside the geofront cavity? According to this diagram (http://www.evacommentary.org/images_production/geofront-dimensional.jpg), the geofront is only 13.75km across, whereas Earth's satellite (which according to the Geofront section, yet to be posted, was Lilith's large rocky outer "moon") is about 3476km across. That's a LOT of raw material. So essentially, the large rocky moon that carried Adam's white moon became a part of Earth, which was molten at the time of Adam's arrival.

[CanonRAP]

If it isn't there to guard from radiation, maybe it's to guard from major collisions?

That seems to be the most plausible as of right now...the outer shell is just a extra layer of protection for the Seed, something to cushion a landing. Buuut...

I'm still not 100% convinced. Perhaps, the large rocky moon surves multiple purposes.

...maybe the carrier-moon is made of something that can sustain life? It doesn't make much sense to make something meant for interstellar travel out of, say, dirt, but serving as just a 'buffer' or protection makes the carrier-moon a big wasted chunk of rock when the Seed settles.

[Reichu]

Due to incompetence or some such thing, third day in a row with no new stuff. (If I'm a very good girl, though, this week might be the last... For this initial phase, at least.) A corrected version of 19-D, though. I asked a couple of casual questions at "the usual place", and M_Ryuuji just posted a translation without really explaining at all. But, well... Who am I to complain? Not creative enough right now to "repersonalize" them a whole lot, but whatever. Revision posted here, for your convenience. (Original post will be revised, too, including the notes.)

19. The Second Angel

D. In-Depth Information

Lilith had no soul. Moreover, her soul has been residing within Rei. Many copies of Rei's body were made, but that is the reason why only one of Rei herself can exist at any given time. Even though Rei was copied from Yui's flesh, this was not the case for her soul.

[Ornette]

that makes more sense

[Reichu]

The second sentence feels rather mysterious, though... The "but" part, especially, yields a bit of a "WTF?" Is it implying a causal relationship or something? I are confuzzled... Maybe it's just because Japanese has been raping my mind too much lately.

Brain twisted into a knot by part of 20-D, and getting it right will make all the difference. Cross your fingers and hope that my prayers will be answered...

[LuigiHann]

I think:
The "but" part refers back to the original sentence. Thus:
Many copies of Rei's body were made, but because she has Lilith's (and therefore, only one) soul, only one of Rei herself can exist at any given time.

[Ornette]

I think:
The "but" part refers back to the original sentence. Thus:
Many copies of Rei's body were made, but because she has Lilith's (and therefore, only one) soul, only one of Rei herself can exist at any given time.
Yeah, that's how I read the sentence.

[Reichu]

Actually, this would be a combination of the "but" and "because", come to think of it...

Rei no nikutai no copy [copies of Rei's body] wa* ikura demo [many] tsukureta [were made] ga [but...], Rei sonomono [Rei herself] ga* tsune ni [always, at any given time] ittai [lit. one body] shika [only] sonzai shienakatta no [noun phrase: being able to exist] wa* kono tame [for this reason] de aru [~ is...].

Hmm, I bet that** makes absolutely no sense to most people. -_-; But I suppose the point I think I was making is that we have the first phrase...

Rei no nikutai no copy wa ikura demo tsukureta ga... (Many copies were made of Rei's body, but...)

With a second phrase that has kono tame (for this reason) attached to the stuff about only one of Rei herself being able to exist at any given time. Goddamit, I hate this Japanese "this/that" B.S. -- it is there solely to make my life miserable. But I guess whatever "this" kono is referring to would determine what the hell they're talking about.

Or maybe it's "these". That would save me a lot of trouble. Fu~. Anyway, I'm confused. I'll ask about this one, just in case...

* wa and ga can both act as 'subject markers', but I still kind of suck when it comes down to the matter of what the exact difference is. (I read somewhere that the wa/ga thing is actually debated within the academic circles of Japan. :lol: ) Yeah, I'll figure it out later...

** The first phase of my newbie attempts to translate stuff usually look kind of like this, BTW. I glance between it and the original text as I attempt to formulate an Engl/rish equivalent. I have to include less crap in parenthesis/brackets, and I look more at the original Japanese, as I get better, which is always nice... Just random stuff.

[Reichu]

10,000 hits? "This is madness!"

Mmkay, seems that you guys are interpreting correctly, and I'm just confusing myself due to my long, drawn-out cerebral battle with kore/kono sore/sono. I wonder if there's an easy and practical way to rephrase things (in translation) to avoid any ambiguity...

I'm surprised more comment hasn't been made on the Dead Sea Scrolls (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5783348&postcount=188). (Aside from funding discussion, comments have the potential bonus of helping me weed out dodginesses in the transl/ration!) There are a number of enigmas remaining here, from what I can tell...

First off, what's with all the talk of "prophecy"? That makes these things sound really mumbo-jumbo, when their actual content seems to be detailing Seeds and Spears. What does the 'time of the Angels' appearances' have to do with anything, as well?

"They are written prophecy, in so far as they remain active even in the current day according to a design of the past." Assuming this translation is worth peanuts, it does bring to mind things like the 'inevitability' of Third Impact (that's a mystery in and of itself), and how humankind has 'existed to create Eva'. The latter makes perfect sense in my view, according to the second-generation Seed hypothesis, which one might call Lilim complying with the FAR's grand scheme -- one from the past that continues to remain active?

And there's the "Dead Sea" thing. The "Secret" scrolls were written by the FAR, and could only get to Earth via two possible routes (one White, one Black, maybe both). The second half of 17-D gives the impression that these things somehow ended up with the DSS-as-we-know-them, and were discovered together. Presumably, Seele was really looking for the religious scriptures, and these things written by an extraterrestrial intelligence just happened to be "included with the package", and they could reclaim these goodies that their ancestors had mysteriously come upon.

But assuming any of that speculation is right, how the heck did they end up in the Dead Sea region in the first place? That's a long ways from where both of the Moons ended up... If any sense could be made of this, though, maybe some sense could be made out of the enigmatic "Spear being sent from Dead Sea to Antarctica".

So, consider:

FAR documents that should have been in one of the Moons found in Dead Sea region.
Spear of Longinus sent from Dead Sea region to South Pole, despite the fact that Adam was discovered impaled on Spear of Longinus.
Blatant Speculation: Adam really did have a Spear sent with her that she used in the Duel. (Yeah, it's like I've been sayin...) Both Adam's Spear and her Scrolls were somehow separated from her post-Duel and ended up in the Dead Sea region. The Spear that was shipped to the Katsuragi Team was thus actually Adam's, needed for the mYsTeRiOuS tHiNgS they were planning to do, and destroyed (or otherwise lost) via 2I.

But I'm really just pulling this out of my arse. ("Blatant Speculation" does abbreviate to "BS". :lol: ) Well, why not?

[Jabberwok]

Here's some more Blatant Speculation to throw on the fire. Bear with me and my cerebral diarrhea...
[Emphasis on the 'B' and 'S']

By the way, this assumes that on Earth 4 eons ago, there existed only one Spear and one set of Scrolls.

It has already been speculated (proven? don't know exactly) the the Spear is Lilith's equivalent of an S2 organ-- an external manifestation of the Fruit of Life. Could the Scrolls then be Adam's external manifestation of the Fruit of Knowledge?

The implication seems to be that the portion released to the public is essentially every holy text written by mankind, yet infinitely predating civilization and even life itself. The remainder deals with the Angels and probably some other things that man has yet to comprehend. The Angels seem possessed of a basic, primal intellect (though it is mentioned that they became more intelligent), animal-like, almost child-like. Could the Scrolls have been meant to serve as a guiding hand in Angelic civilization?

I can only speculate as to what the Spear's intended purpose in mankind's devopment was (punishing infidels?), but I wonder if the Scrolls may have had an adverse effect on mankind's evolution. Perhaps they caused science, language, and civilization in general develop far faster than intended, leading to our "evolutionary dead-end" that the Human Instrumentality Project sought to correct.

Like I said, some more fuel for the fire. My own fire, I predict, but this was fun to write, so accept my fate.

Oh, and this doesn't explain the Tree either. So like I said B.S. but still fun.

[Reichu]

It has already been speculated (proven? don't know exactly) the the Spear is Lilith's equivalent of an S2 organ-- an external manifestation of the Fruit of Life. Could the Scrolls then be Adam's external manifestation of the Fruit of Knowledge?

The "external manifestation of FoL" was something I barfed up back in this lovely thread (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=185453).* I'm not actively prescribing to that notion at the moment, but the idea that one of the Spear's inherent functions is to act as a S2 for Lilith still seems to cooperate with the shape and what happens in #22'. Mysteries...

* Sweet Lilith on a fork. I sound so ridiculous -- at least 15 times more than normal -- in those threads. It's a good thing I was beaten afterwards. Probably still good stuff in it, though.

The implication seems to be that the portion released to the public is essentially every holy text written by mankind, yet infinitely predating civilization and even life itself.

Wouldn't the part released to the public just be the "Dead Sea Scrolls As We Know Them"? I.e., religious documents penned by a sect of Jews (NGE seems to use the Essenes theory) who once lived in the Qumran region. The "Secret" (in the sense of "hidden from view") scrolls would be playing on the popular notion that certain parts of the DSS were kept under wraps, except here the "Secret" ones are explicitly said to be written by the FAR.

The Angels seem possessed of a basic, primal intellect (though it is mentioned that they became more intelligent), animal-like, almost child-like.

Regarding the latter: Well, technically they ARE children.

Could the Scrolls have been meant to serve as a guiding hand in Angelic civilization?

They'd need to get out some very fine tweezers -- the Scrolls seem to be on a scale (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-23/23_reiquarium.html#cut317-23) more attuned to tiny mortals than giant gods.

I can only speculate as to what the Spear's intended purpose in mankind's devopment was (punishing infidels?)

Reminds me of the Spear's function as an "overkill weapon" in LuigiHann's "Evangelion Clue".

but I wonder if the Scrolls may have had an adverse effect on mankind's evolution. Perhaps they caused science, language, and civilization in general develop far faster than intended, leading to our "evolutionary dead-end" that the Human Instrumentality Project sought to correct.

If you weren't already quite advanced, I wonder how you'd figure out what the heck they said in the first place?

[Jabberwok]

Wouldn't the part released to the public just be the "Dead Sea Scrolls As We Know Them"? I.e., religious documents penned by a sect of Jews (NGE seems to use the Essenes theory) who once lived in the Qumran region. The "Secret" (in the sense of "hidden from view") scrolls would be playing on the popular notion that certain parts of the DSS were kept under wraps, except here the "Secret" ones are explicitly said to be written by the FAR.
Yes. I should have elaborated on that. I shall call them the SDSS, 1st ed. I had imagined the originals to have been at mankind's side from the beginning of civilization (wasn't Seele rumored to have been a guiding hand from "back in the day"?). Throught out the ages, as they were deciphered by this monolith-obsessed cabal, language, technology, and our holy scriptures were based from their writings. Then sometime around 1947, the "parts of little consequence" are suddenly "found", the remaining bit being used for much fun 53 years later.

After re-reading entry 17-D, I doubt my previous interpretation. The SDSSs seem to have been discovered, in full, far later than ancient Sumeria.


Regarding the latter: Well, technically they ARE children.
Yes. Extrapolating a potential civilization from the bumblings of a newborn god-child was poor judgement on my part. :P


They'd need to get out some very fine tweezers -- the Scrolls seem to be on a scale more attuned to tiny mortals than giant gods.
Well the Angels were given the ability to decide their own form. Subsequent generations may have imagined themselves with less grandious frames. :P


If you weren't already quite advanced, I wonder how you'd figure out what the heck they said in the first place?
I should have gotten more into this angle. I may have been thinking more along the lines of humans being allowed to evolve further in a genetic and spiritual sense before our technology leapt ahead, putting us at the top of the food chain and allowing us to begin destoying ourselves willy-nilly. I think spiritual evolution was more where my thoughts were, actually.

[Reichu]

Yes. Extrapolating a potential civilization form the bumblings of a newborn god-child was poor judgement on my part. :P

Sandalphon: MOMMY! GIVE ME A BIG HUG!! http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/baby.gif

Well the Angels were given the ability to decide their own form. Subsequent generations may have imagined themselves with less grandious frames. :P

Hmm. I hadn't thought of that... They'd have to decide pretty early on, considering the default size is 40~200 meters tall. (Actually, I still have no idea how all that works. Sandalphon, even as an immature Adam-type person prior to metamorphosis, was bigger than his mom. Durrrr...)

I should have gotten more into this angle. I may have been thinking more along the lines of humans being allowed to evolve further in a genetic and spiritual sense before our technology leapt ahead, putting us at the top of the food chain and allowing us to begin destoying ourselves willy-nilly. I think spiritual evolution was more where my thougths were, actually.

As things go, the "spiritual evolution" option seems to open up after we've reached the end of our evolutionary potential. If you know what I mean.

[Jabberwok]

...considering the default size is 40~200 meters tall.
200m seems a little conservative; wasn't Sahaquiel a healthy kilometer across? Iruel started out a little smaller than 40m, too. And Leliel was two-dimensional, so I think she should get some credit for effort.

Just joshin' ya.



All of this said, had the "one-Seed-per-planet" thing worked as intended, what would the Seeds be doing on their respective planets? Don't really have anything to go off of seeing as Lilith disabled herself to disable Adam.

Roaming godlings tending the flock a la 'Black & White' comes to mind. Perhaps acting as a guide, watching over thier progeny to assure that all aspects of their development-- technical, biological, and spiritual / mind, body, and soul-- remain in balance.

[Reichu]

200m seems a little conservative

I was actually referring to the way that all Apostles would start, as demonstrated by Sandalphon and the line 'humans who abandoned human form', as Adam-type people -- i.e., if not for this tendency of theirs, they would develop into humans following the blueprint of Adam and the Evas. Adam and the Evas seem to vary from 40 ~ 200 meters in height, due to 'artistic liberties' taken by Anno-tachi (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-01/episode-01B-scene8.html#cut346), hence the figure.

wasn't Sahaquiel a healthy kilometer across? Iruel started out a little smaller than 40m, too.

Actually, curious, how are you getting these figures? (The Chart (http://www.evacommentary.org/appendix/angel-size-comparison.jpg) wants to know!)

All of this said, had the "one-Seed-per-planet" thing worked as intended, what would the Seeds be doing on their respective planets?

Drinking beer, singing songs, making love to their Spears, recalling their oh-so-distant mortal lives with fondness and angst... Putting their babes to bed by reading stories from the Scrolls every so often, too. "And in the end, Lilith-chan brought happiness to everyone..." (Brownie Points if you get the reference.)

Roaming godlings tending the flock a la 'Black & White' comes to mind.

I need to play that game...

Perhaps acting as a guide, watching over thier progeny to assure that all aspects of their development-- technical, biological, and spiritual / mind, body, and soul-- remain in balance.

Hmm, so is THAT what went wrong? :shifty: Well, Gendo mentions something about a "mother who was long lost to this world" in #25 -- haven't checked the Nihongo, though.

Will post 2nd Impact later today, but I can't guarantee it won't sound batshit crazy.

(And just on a random side note, since we are getting close to the execution of the FGC page for the CI: I'm aiming for Commentary Revival in July. Seriously.)

[Ornette]

Blatant Speculation: Adam really did have a Spear sent with her that she used in the Duel. (Yeah, it's like I've been sayin...) Both Adam's Spear and her Scrolls were somehow separated from her post-Duel and ended up in the Dead Sea region. The Spear that was shipped to the Katsuragi Team was thus actually Adam's, needed for the mYsTeRiOuS tHiNgS they were planning to do, and destroyed (or otherwise lost) via 2I.[/list]

But I'm really just pulling this out of my arse. ("Blatant Speculation" does abbreviate to "BS". :lol: ) Well, why not?
Wasn't this bit discussed in the LnY thread? The problem here is that they had to go back to antarctica to fetch the spear. I suppose it's possible that this was adam's spear that they're delivering back to the dead sea, while Lilith's spear at the dead sea was being delivered to Nerv to be inserted into Lilith around the same time. But, Occam's Razor....

[Reichu]

It was discussed in a couple of wonky threads, but nothing was ever resolved to satisfaction, I don't think.

Well, we know that Lilith's Spear was already present at the South Pole, because she left Adam skewered on it, and that it remained there for 2I and was later (a somewhat inevitable 15 years later, considering that Seele was capable of fetching items as minute as eggs and a soul from the aftermath...) recovered from the site.

There are implications that Adam had a Spear at one point (unless I'm on metaphoric crack, but I'll be happy to admit it come to that), but it's never said what the heck happened to this.

FAR documents that had to originate from one of the Moons were apparently excavated from the Dead Sea region together with the real DSS. (How the heck did they get there??) Also, inevitably, we're told that the (or "a") Spear of Longinus has been delivered to the UN Base in Antarctica from the Dead Sea region, despite the fact that the (or "a") Spear of Longinus was found inside the White Moon in the first place. These are the only two references to the actual Dead Sea in the show, as well.

Razors or not, there are still some weird things going on here, no?

[Ornette]

I'd say that if Adam had a spear (and the CI definitely makes it seem like all seeds had a security device), it was destroyed and the spear that was found with Adam, sent to the dead sea, sent back to antarctica, fetched from antarctica and sent to Nerv, was Lilith's. That seems to be the simplest answer that covers all the bases (I may be wrong about this).

As for the DSS, I have no idea what to make of that. I suppose that it's possible that tektonic shifting put the scrolls there and possibly the newer scrolls, the public ones written circa 0 A.D., were put in the same place for convenience's sake (or something). Adam's scrolls may have been removed from the white moon during the duel of the seeds, thus they ended up in a different place.

[Reichu]

I guess we'll cross those Spears when we get to them. (hah hah, get it?)

Here you guys go: Both Impacts, conveniently in one post! (Mostly because 3I was really short.) After this, there's just Spear of Longinus, Dummy Plug, and Geofront left before the next phase of suffering (followed by yet more suffering) begins!! (And I do it all for f-REE.)

The images are just there to look cool.

*****

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/Souls/death_C0015_ookii-hane.jpg

20. Second Impact

A. Publicly Released Information

On September 13, 2000, a giant meteorite descended upon the South Pole. A huge explosion resulted, melting the ice and generating massive tidal waves, which in turn caused the sea level to rise several tens of meters. Collectively, more than 2 billion people on the islands of the Southern Hemisphere died.

The energy from the explosion knocked the Earth off its axis, producing climate change on a global scale; Japan became a country of perpetual summer. Many places around the world suffered drought, flooding, volcanic eruptions, abnormal weather patterns, and other calamities as a result of this Second Impact. Economic panic and civil war erupted in every nation.

B. Generally Recognized Information

Mankind discovered a human lifeform, designated the first Angel, at the South Pole. During the investigation, a giant explosion occurred for reasons unknown. The well-publicized theory that it was caused by a giant meteorite is the product of rigged intelligence.

C. Confidential Information

Adam, the First Angel -- and the cause of Second Impact -- was discovered by the Katsuragi Investigation Team at the South Pole. It was courtesy of Seele's funding that the Katsuragi Team discovered the White Moon, which contained Adam and the Spear of Longinus.

D. In-Depth Information

The other Seed of Life, Adam, was awakened by humankind. The Katsuragi Investigation Team frantically attempted to reseal her using the Spear of Longinus, but failed. Ultimately, through the phenomenon of the S2 Engine apparently going into overdrive by artificial means (details are vague due to the team's complete annihilation), it became that only an absolute catastrophe -– the resetting of all life due to the disappearance of A.T. Fields, and the construction of an ecosystem with an Adam base -– was prevented. This is called the Second Impact. The incident blew Adam completely apart.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/Souls/m26_C316B_col-disc_mid.jpg

21. Third Impact

A. Publicly Released Information

Data unavailable.

B. Generally Recognized Information

Nerv's personnel are told that, if an Angel were to come into contact with Adam (the white giant in Terminal Dogma), an explosion of similar magnitude to Second Impact will occur. In actuality, the Human Instrumentality Project would be set in motion.

C. Confidential Information

It is thought that Third Impact will occur if an Angel comes in contact with either Lilith (in Terminal Dogma) or Adam.

D. In-Depth Information

The alleged reality of Third Impact is that humans will lose their personal boundaries, dissolving as a result. Life will arrive at its terminus (although it is unclear what such an end entails), and A.T. Fields will be lost, rendering the preservation of human form impossible.

Footnotes for 20 & 21.

20-A. Pretty straightforward stuff (unlike most of the CI). Had to rearrange things in many cases to avoid Engrish and utilize English synonyms heavily to skirt the repetitive language of the original. Some other liberties, too, but none of any consequence, I should think. Retains the information conveyed, if all went well, which is what matters.

20-B. I went against my own political leanings and used the term "mankind" here for jinrui (humanity, humankind, the human race, H. sapiens, "semi-evolved simians", whatever). The only reason for this is because lopping off the "hu-" made the sentence flow better, due to its proximity to the "human" rendered from the ningen (another Japanese "human" word -– I think I have only the vaguest of inklings about what the actual difference in nuance between jinrui and ningen is) in ningen no seimeitai ("human lifeform").

For some reason, they use the term saisho no shito (saisho no = "first", from a general term meaning "onset" or "beginning") here instead of the usual "dai'ichi shito" (dai + ichi = ordinal for "first").

20-D. This one was edited after the initial posting, as you will probably be able to deduce from the immediate responses. Here is the old crap translation:

"The other Seed of Life, Adam, was awakened by humankind. The Katsuragi Team frantically attempted to reseal her using the Spear of Longinus, but failed. Ultimately, because of the phenomenon apparently caused by her S2 Engine artificially going into overdrive, the absolute catastrophe -– the resetting of all life due to A.T. Fields being extinguished –- prevented the formation of a solely Adam-based ecosystem. This is called the Second Impact. The incident blew Adam completely apart."

And my notes: "Uhhh... This one was really muthaf00king hard. You might be able to tell from that reeeeally long third sentence (bless you, roxfan), which I feel too cerebrally exhausted to attempt to break down via careful rewrite right now. Please ask questions if you have them. Thank you."

21-B. I'm actually wondering if my English grammar here is technically correct. http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/paranoid.gif

21-C. I'm a bit unclear on how a couple of the grammatical elements here work; I'll ask about them if I have opportunity. But at least from what I could figure, there were only a couple of changes I decided to make to rockthing's take. ["Third impact will occur if an Angels comes into contact with either Lilith (in Terminal Dogma) or Adam."]

21-D. Literally something like, "It's said that the true nature of Third Impact is..." (Eeewww. But I'm actually not sure which one is better. -_-; ) "Life" here is seimei, in the sense of things that are alive ("a respect for all life"), not a person's life ("my life sucks"). "Terminus" and "end" are the same word, shuumatsu.

[Ornette]

numbering is off

prevented the formation of a solely Adam-based ecosystem.
hmm, I always thought that it WAS an adam-based ecosystem. could the "prevented" be refering to something else?

[Mr. Tines]

21-B. I'm actually wondering if my English grammar here is technically correct.

Strictly, with the clause being launched in subjunctive voice "if an Angel were to...", then it should stay that way "...would occur." The English grammar is fine; and I'm just being pedantic about a slightly archaic usage.

[thewayneiac]

20 D: This doesn't seem to be saying what it ought to be saying. The parenthetical clause, "the resetting of all life due to A.T. Fields being extinguished" must be defining exactly what is the refered to disaster, but if so, we should still get a coherent thought if we remove it, but: Ultimately, because of the phenomenon apparently caused by her S2 Engine artificially going into overdrive, the complete and total catastrophe prevented the formation of a solely Adam-based ecosystem. still doesn't make much sense. The reduction of life to LCL prevented her from establishing her ecosystem? Could that really be what it means? It would make more sense if the phenomenon refered to was Adam's explosion. That could have been a timely event that prevented her from finishing the job, but if so, it would be refering to the next sentence, rather than something that had already been mentioned in this section.

[Reichu]

numbering is off

"Oh no, not again!"

hmm, I always thought that it WAS an adam-based ecosystem. could the "prevented" be refering to something else?

That's what I posted in the "Dead Sea" thread earlier this year, yeah. The idea that the "formation of an Adam-based ecosystem" (the local changes in the atmosphere, and all that) is what prevented everyone who was affected by the AATF from reembodying (nothing compatible to reembody from?) seems to make an awful lot of sense. "Preventing (something) from taking form/shape" really sounds like it would be referring to the effect of the Adam-based ecosystem that was constructed/formulated on the life that was 'reset'.

However, at the moment I wouldn't be able to justify this interpretation based solely on what I know of the language used here, since it's not saying "what it should be saying" in the simple terms one would hope. (That is, if it IS saying this, it is doing it in a rather obnoxiously complicated way.) I'll ask AL more about this, and hope for a response... Or maybe a combination of comments here and the restoration of psychic energies will allow my brain will come up with something. (Isn't playing with a foreign language that nobody posting in this thread is very masterful at fun? :lol: )

[Jabberwok]

On September 13, 2000, a giant meteorite...
...it was caused by a giant meteorite...

Apparently an object's speed now effects it's size. So if a few centemeter object at a high sub-luminal speed becomes "giant", does that mean photons are, in fact, quite monstrous, and tachyon's are mind-bogglingly huge? :P



I agree with others in that 20-D seems to be missing its own mark. In trying to boil down the trouble some sentence to the point where I could read it quickly, I noticed that changing the parenthetical clause to an additional one helped it make more sense.
...the complete and total catastrophe, and the resetting of all life due to A.T. Fields being extinguished, prevented the formation...
But I think that perverts the original intent a little too much.

And "extinguish" seems a little harsh here. Doesn't sound like the ATFs are being released/merged; it sounds like they are destroyed, maybe even to the extent that the organic components within the newly formed LCL/soup are torn asunder. This would definitely make Fuyutsuki not seem like such a pessimist on that carrier down-under.



Here's somthing else to think about, human (i.e. Lilim) corpses decompose into either a compost heap of organic chemicals or an orange puddle of organic chemicals. Okay, so a Lilith-ic ecosystem is based on LCL. But Angel corpses seem to either do nothing (like Shamshel or Ramiel) or explode (like pretty much every one else). Therefore is say an Adamic ecosystem is based on explosions. The Antarctic Dead Sea just isn't explodey enough.



Seriously though...
Actually, curious, how are you getting these figures? (The Chart wants to know!)
Sahaquiel=1km was just an off the cuff guess that she was 20 times wider than an Eva was tall. That multiplied by the 50m height I remember someone listing gave me a nice, even one-kay. Iruel was just a stupid guess that the initial "protien degredation", or whatever the hell it was, looked to be not much bigger than a polysome, whatever the hell those are.



I wish I had something more substantial to add to this...

[ElDusto]

Hexon.Arq brought up Shiva/Shakti (lingam/yoni) a while back (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4250352#post4250352). I never got around to reading up on it, but I bet you guys are right about a Hindu connection. (FYI, there's a Tree of Life in Hinduism too, if that has any relevance whatsoever.)

Just to cover a pet peeve of mine, though, since the terminology seems to be a source of confusion: The term vagina refers to the muscular canal that extends from the vestibule in the labia minora to the cervix (right below the uterus) -- it's an internal structure. Vulva refers to the external female genitalia on the whole (labia majora + minora, clitoris, etc.). The latter is manifesting on the forehead (and... hair??) of GNR, but the eyeball IS emerging from the former. ;)

Regarding Shinji and Rei... You know, as blatantly sexual as that scene is, I always thought that, at the same time, it really isn't. :P
Yeah, well, if I said Vulva, most people would have went :blink: "What's a Vulva?"

[thewayneiac]

The more I think about, the more I think that "the phenomenon apparently caused by her S2 Engine artificially going into overdrive", should be refering to Adam exploding. I'm wondering if we aren't supposed to read into this: "prevented the formation of a solely Adam-based ecosystem" the word "worldwide". That is the explosion, as I said, kept her from finishing the job. In other words, 2nd Impact was nearly what we've been calling the "destructive 3rd Impact". If the Katsuragi team caused the "overdrive" with their anti-A.T. Field, then they were in fact successful; it just wasn't enough to save themselves.