NGE2 Classified Information [Archive] - Page 2

Reichu

June 14th, 2006, 08:38 PM

A few questions still remain, and inevitable rewrites lay ahead, but the situation has improved considerably, so I'll give you a "slight" revision of 20-D now. This includes part of the sentence that I absent-mindedly forgot to give you (the reason being unimportant)

*****

20. Second Impact

D. In-Depth Information

The other Seed of Life, Adam, was awakened by humankind. The Katsuragi Investigation Team frantically attempted to reseal her using the Spear of Longinus, but failed. Ultimately, through the phenomenon of the S2 Engine apparently going into overdrive by artificial means (details are vague due to the team's complete annihilation), it became that only an absolute catastrophe -– the resetting of all life due to the disappearance of A.T. Fields, and the construction of an ecosystem with an Adam base -– was prevented. This is called the Second Impact. The incident blew Adam completely apart.

*****

There. That should at least be an improvement.

Wayne's already made a few suggestions that definitely seem to be in the right place. (I was pleasantly surprised to come back to the thread -- after another round of suffering -- and see that he'd already taken to the turf.) Here are some notes (brain noise in places, but being selective takes additional energy):

The "phenomenon" refers to what happened to Adam's S2 Engine, but they're not telling us much about that here except that it went out of control, berserk, into overdrive, or what have you as a result of human interference. Artificial or synthetic here, in the sense of "caused by humans".

The catastrophe mentioned is described as "complete and total", or, I suppose one might say, "utter", "absolute". I guess this wording might be used in contrast with "a catastrophe of lesser caliber". What falls under the "absolute catastrophe" label here is sort of confusing, since they structure the sentence like so:

(kanzen na hakkyoku) = (A.T. Field shoushitsu ni yoru zenseimei no reset) (to) (Adam base to no seitaikei kouchiku) //
(absolute catastrophe) = (the resetting of all life due to the disappearance of A.T. Fields) (and) (the construction of an ecosystem with an Adam base)

Tentative as I am about the language, I'm not sure if the = relationship works like this:

(absolute catastrophe = the resetting of all life due to the disappearance of A.T. Fields) (and) (the construction of an ecosystem with an Adam base)

or this:

(absolute catastrophe) = (the resetting of all life due to the disappearance of A.T. Fields *and* the construction of an ecosystem with an Adam base)

But now that I understand the whole sentence a bit better, I'm thinking it's the latter. :wonders if that sort of minutiae actually matters to anyone else http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/sweatdroplaugh.gif:

So to get to the point, I'm thinking that the implications are something like this: Second Impact was a big enough disaster as things stood (see 20-A), but because of the S2 stuff, the ABSOLUTE catastrophe entailed by the two things mentioned (i.e., Adam carrying her task out to the full) was averted. (I.e., it was "only" because these two things were prevented that we didn't get an absolute catastrophe.)

If you have any questions about the changes I neglected to mention, let me know, since I'm too tired to go through them right now. :P

If the Katsuragi team caused the "overdrive" with their anti-A.T. Field, then they were in fact successful; it just wasn't enough to save themselves.
Translation flub from bochan_bird. ( http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-21/episode-21A-scene1.html#cut309A) It's unclear why Adam's S2 started going out of control, but, in the extremely economical top-secret UN tape (#21'/DEATH):

Man F (left) "Stop the surface luminescence! It's surpassing calculated predictions!"
You can see, far in the back, that the source of this "luminescence" is getting more intense as the cut progresses. This is certainly Adam turning into a "Giant of Light". We get a hint as to what this entails in #26': The MP Evas glow when they "release" their S2 Engines in preparation for that giant explosion. (Their artificial components are what we can actually see lighting up, but the same thing happens with Adam, as well.) The difference is that, with the harpies, the S2s were controlled and the explosion planned.

What went wrong with Adam? Just humans messing with things they don't understand? I've actually been wondering if the CE was "sabotaged" (as it were) by somebody to prevent both Seele's AND Adam's dreams from actualizing that day, but that's just an idea I've been messing around with.

Reichu go sleepies now.

ElDusto

June 14th, 2006, 09:31 PM

What went wrong with Adam? Just humans messing with things they don't understand? I've actually been wondering if the CE was "sabotaged" (as it were) by somebody to prevent both Seele's AND Adam's dreams from actualizing that day, but that's just an idea I've been messing around with.
I always thought it was rather convinient that Gendo left Antarctica just before 2I. Almost like he knew what was going to happen. Maybe Yui had some involvement in some sort of sabotage in the form of a sudgestion or order to Gendo.
I just keep getting this hint, that Yui knew about everything, even about the FAR. Like she was in on the whole thing. Maybe Yui knew that Adam would just cause problems for the Human Complimentation Project and sought out to destroy Adam since SEELE seemed to want her so bad. But instead of a total anihilation, Adam's body was reduced to an embryo/egg and all her "offspring" were released. It kind of puts Yui in a bad light, but it's just a random thought in my half-awake mind. Take it with a grain of salt, or eat the whole salt shaker.

CanonRAP

June 14th, 2006, 09:38 PM

I always thought it was rather convinient that Gendo left Antarctica just before 2I. Almost like he knew what was going to happen. Maybe Yui had some involvement in some sort of sabotage in the form of a sudgestion or order to Gendo.
I just keep getting this hint, that Yui knew about everything, even about the FAR. Like she was in on the whole thing. Maybe Yui knew that Adam would just cause problems for the Human Complimentation Project and sought out to destroy Adam since SEELE seemed to want her so bad. But instead of a total anihilation, Adam's body was reduced to an embryo/egg and all her "offspring" were released. It kind of puts Yui in a bad light, but it's just a random thought in my half-awake mind. Take it with a grain of salt, or eat the whole salt shaker.

Seele would pull out Gendo before anything bad happens, and Yui, being the daughter of a member of Seele, would know a lot about what they were trying to do, though I doubt she would 'sabotage' anything (except her own CE).

BigBet

June 14th, 2006, 09:42 PM

Sabotage is *pretty* prevalent in the show, IIRC:
1. Somebody sabotages the base when Matariel shows up
2. Somebody sabotages the Jet Alone.
Did I miss any?

Here's a very interesting line by Gendo I found in a most unlikely place:
The end of evolution is self-destruction. It is death itself.
Any guesses where? :P

Jabberwok

June 14th, 2006, 09:52 PM

Liliputian Hitcher, nice. Hey guys, lets do an episode for a mecha show, but with no mecha in it. Sounds good! Let's do one later in the series where we focus on the old guy too!

It is true that death creates nothing, but Iruel's death did create some nice fan-service in that ultra-clean environment.

Reichu

June 15th, 2006, 07:25 AM

I always thought it was rather convinient that Gendo left Antarctica just before 2I. Almost like he knew what was going to happen.
Apparently Keel left with him. Keel's organization was providing the funding, and Gendo was acting as an auditor (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5562988&postcount=15). It's interesting that BOTH of them would split only a couple of days before the Contact Experiment, considering the hints that Seele were planning to use Adam (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5781818&postcount=225) (and her unborn offspring?) to open the Path to Divinity for themselves. (But, then, Keel wasn't anywhere near Hakone when 3I happened, either, even though he sent his flying monkeys there to do his dirty work.)

I should note that Gendo's behavior around Keel at the time of the Katsuragi Expedition is somewhat revealingly insincere (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5702455&postcount=96). Additionally, the idea that Gendo was "using" Yui seems to be more of a public misconception than anything else; whatever they were up to, they were probably doing it as a dynamic duo. (Um, don't take that the wrong way. At least, not completely.)

I just keep getting this hint, that Yui knew about everything, even about the FAR. Like she was in on the whole thing.
Doopy doopy doo. (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5562988&postcount=15)

Yui is the daughter of an influential member of Seele, and, accordingly, was in the position of being able to understand their plans. Gendo, knowing this, became acquainted with her.
Maybe Yui knew that Adam would just cause problems for the Human Complimentation Project and sought out to destroy Adam since SEELE seemed to want her so bad. But instead of a total anihilation, Adam's body was reduced to an embryo/egg and all her "offspring" were released.
In the post I linked to earlier (read it, *****es!), I point out how Keel alludes to "relying on the power of Adam and the Angels" (or some such thing, haven't checked Japanese yet), I suspect as a reference to 2I. My own suspicions are that Adam's kids were, somehow, an important part of Seele's 2I (as opposed to "the 2I that didn't go so well"), and, in order to try again, they once again needed all of the Apostles at hand. (Meaning, wait for them to show up, kill them, and...)

The "reduction to an egg" thing still doesn't make much sense to me, since Misato's line makes it sound as if it was done on purpose (???). I can't even figure out how someone who exploded could degenerate into anything, let alone what that would have to do with "reducing the damage before the other Angels woke up" (<-- need to check on that more thoroughly).

It kind of puts Yui in a bad light
Notice how grouchy Fuyutsuki was when he showed up at the Artificial Evolution Laboratory for the first time? ;)

Here's a very interesting line by Gendo I found in a most unlikely place:
Excellent. Now the question is, how does that link up with what Gendo says in #25' ("Death gives birth to nothing")?

Shin-seiki

June 15th, 2006, 08:51 AM

Hey gang, check out this thread (http://www.anime-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=1939523) over on A-F.com; our old pal Zuggy has his doubts about one of our favorite pet theories...

Reichu

June 15th, 2006, 10:17 AM

:looks at zuggy's posts:

http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/nervouslaugh.gif

Coming from zuggy, such doubts don't mean very much. He's great at digging out esoteric references, but not very adept at keeping things in context... E.g.,

You can see how Enki and Enlil (elohim and yahweh) can be seen to be Lilith and Adam as well, and that the 'biblical flood' is why various cities in the Evangelion universe are underwater (god was angry with mankind and decided it should perish in the watery avalanche, called the second impact).

...

You know that these moons were from a planet called nibiru by the Sumerians, and marduk by the Babylonians. The anunnaki, or nephilim (these names were translated to the word giants in the Bible and other texts, giants as in Adam/Lilith like giants) were from this planet that is now either the asteroid belt due to a collision with Tiamat or out on a very far-flung orbit around our solar system. If you ask me, crashing two of the moons of marduk into earth was not a mistake. Also, isn't marduk called the first child born of the apsu?

What about the honey-comb structure inside the black moon, Shin-Seki? Some of the alien entities inside those must have died during larval stage or whatever the case may be, because some of them still remain closed. This explains where nerv gets some of their parts for the evangelions. Wouldn't those entities that were born be considered angels, and wouldn't that give a new angle to the war in heaven, this time around between Lilith who is sided with Sammuel against Adam who is sided with Eve.

What if their was a rebellion against Adam, what if the angels of Lilith killed Adam? What if Adam's batch of angels killed him? Shouldn't all of these scenarios be taken in consideration, before final conclusions are drawn.

...what the hell?

Here's something I vomitted up over there, just for the joy of being tarred and feathered by the locals.

One of the hints, methinks, that an actual duel occurred is hidden within #24 (along with many other things), "The Beginning and the End, or Knockin' on Heaven's Door"*, and that is the fight between EVA-01 (pilotted here by Shinji) and EVA-02 (controlled in some manner by Kaworu). As noted in my little blurb, Kaworu calls EVA-02 "Adam's alter ego", and Keel later calls EVA-01 "Lilith's alter ego" -- these designations had always been rather mysterious to me. They battle in the depths of the Black Moon, using two variations upon the same weapon, fighting in a non-lethal manner (i.e., not going for the core).

EVA-02 loses. What happens? The vessel Adam is inhabiting is destroyed, by her own request; Kaworu dies to give humanity the future. What was Kaworu actually planning to do before EVA-02 got the knock-down? Apparently -- and this point is made three different ways -- take her (= "copy" of Adam) for a body. A lot of the details there are still unclear, but, had this happened, it's basically said that humanity (= the Lilim kind) would be destroyed. With Adam's soul, EVA-02 would essentially BECOME Adam, and Adam, having the proper body once again, might be able to reprise her Seed duties (which would involve erasing Lilith's work).

What eventually happens because EVA-01 wins? Third Impact and HIP proceed (with her at the core), and, afterwards, Yui leaves the planet with the Spear of Longinus -- and intimations are that she is going to become a Seed of Life herself. (A status that Evas, as entities based off a Seed, Adam, all have the potential of achieving.)

So, in essence, the battle in #24:

EVA-01 WIN! = Lilim keep Earth + Lilim-created 2nd-gen Seed later sent from Earth
EVA-02 WIN! = Adam reborn (destroyed Seed functionally restored) + Lilith-based life wiped out

Like I said, I'm still unclear on some of the details here; it's "a work in progress". I have strong suspicions that something like this is going on, though, and that it is another instance in NGE of 'you never see something just once' -- except the first time this happened, it was off-screen, between Lilith and Adam, and inside the White Moon.

Also note: They let us know in #24 that Lilith's ATF is stronger than Adam's.

* And a Japanese title that can be read three different ways, giving this episode a whopping five titles, in essence.

Maybe some of that makes sense, at least.

BTW, Shin-seiki: POST MOAR!!! E-mail me back, too...

BigBet

June 15th, 2006, 10:25 AM

Also note: They let us know in #24 that Lilith's ATF is stronger than Adam's.

I always wondered, why didn't Rei use her ATF offensively ever before? All those serious injuries she got in previous episodes could have been prevented by using her ATF as a protective buffer, right?
Or is it because only after Kaworu hinted to her about her true origins that she realised she has mad ATF 5k|LL5z?

Reichu

June 15th, 2006, 10:29 AM

I always wondered, why didn't Rei use her ATF offensively ever before? All those serious injuries she got in previous episodes could have been prevented by using her ATF as a protective buffer, right?
Or is it because only after Kaworu hinted to her about her true origins that she realised she has mad ATF 5k|LL5z?

I'm guessing it's the latter.

BTW, now that zuggy mentions it, what the hell IS that weird honeycomb thing (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/23_npc_C288_a.jpg)? :blink: Like, NPC addition WTF?

Blader5489

June 15th, 2006, 11:56 AM

I'm guessing it's the latter.

BTW, now that zuggy mentions it, what the hell IS that weird honeycomb thing (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/23_npc_C288_a.jpg)? :blink: Like, NPC addition WTF?

Not sure how to explain the honeycomb formation, but that's a pic of the Geofront, correct (for some reason, I'm competely drawing a blank on what episode that is - maybe 23?)?

If so, it may tie into the whole moon debate from before, as that surface, minus the honeycomb-like lines, definitely resembles that of the moon (or a moon).

Shin-seiki

June 15th, 2006, 12:13 PM

This came up a while back, over on Evamonkey's forum (http://forums.evamonkey.com/viewtopic.php?p=39171&sid=4f5967ecbfa4e5877dc9ea8650b9e1b3#391 71). I dunno what that is, but it sure looks like something big and alive has erupted (hatched) out of that structure. (Do the script or Renewal DVD notes (http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5763737&highlight=Renewal#post5763737) for #23' have anything to say about that cut, Reichu?

Mr. Tines

June 15th, 2006, 12:23 PM

whatever they were up to, they were probably doing it as a dynamic duo. (Um, don't take that the wrong way. At least, not completely.)

Well, with a birthday of 6-6-01, Shinji's conception date is exceedingly close to 2I, so your caveat is necessary :P (what was your take on Gendo's

what the hell IS that weird honeycomb thing (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/23_npc_C288_a.jpg)?

I would not be surprised to find that it is the raw interior of the hull of the black moon.

zx06

June 15th, 2006, 04:27 PM

d00d lilith is teh bee, lol

LuigiHann

June 15th, 2006, 05:29 PM

In any case, it makes a lot more visual sense than the DNA-elevator...
It also uses the hexagon/octagon motif that runs throughout the series.

Reichu

June 15th, 2006, 09:53 PM

Not sure how to explain the honeycomb formation, but that's a pic of the Geofront, correct (for some reason, I'm competely drawing a blank on what episode that is - maybe 23?)?

When Ritsuko is taking Misato and Shinji down into Terminal Dogma.

(Do the script or Renewal DVD notes (http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5763737&highlight=Renewal#post5763737) for #23' have anything to say about that cut, Reichu?

The Renewal DVD notes were the first thing I checked. Naturally, nothing. I scanned the relevant pages of Eva tomo no kai up and down, as well, and nothing. The script? So unhelpful, it decided to be something I could understand on sight as compensation.

C-288: A linear elevator descending in the vast [lit. giant] Central Dogma.

Pretty sweet, eh?

This came up a while back, over on Evamonkey's forum (http://forums.evamonkey.com/viewtopic.php?p=39171&sid=4f5967ecbfa4e5877dc9ea8650b9e1b3#391 71). I dunno what that is, but it sure looks like something big and alive has erupted (hatched) out of that structure.

More than one somethings. I've noticed the 'honeycomb' before, but it was one of those "see it, but don't really think about it" dealios; I just assumed it was a FAR structure and that was that. There is something creepily organic about it, and, yes, it looks like at least a couple of the cavities have been "disturbed".

ElDusto

June 16th, 2006, 08:22 PM

Apparently Keel left with him. Keel's organization was providing the funding, and Gendo was acting as an auditor (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5562988&postcount=15). It's interesting that BOTH of them would split only a couple of days before the Contact Experiment, considering the hints that Seele were planning to use Adam (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5781818&postcount=225) (and her unborn offspring?) to open the Path to Divinity for themselves. (But, then, Keel wasn't anywhere near Hakone when 3I happened, either, even though he sent his flying monkeys there to do his dirty work.)

I should note that Gendo's behavior around Keel at the time of the Katsuragi Expedition is somewhat revealingly insincere (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5702455&postcount=96). Additionally, the idea that Gendo was "using" Yui seems to be more of a public misconception than anything else; whatever they were up to, they were probably doing it as a dynamic duo. (Um, don't take that the wrong way. At least, not completely.)

Doopy doopy doo. (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5562988&postcount=15)

Yui is the daughter of an influential member of Seele, and, accordingly, was in the position of being able to understand their plans. Gendo, knowing this, became acquainted with her.

In the post I linked to earlier (read it, *****es!), I point out how Keel alludes to "relying on the power of Adam and the Angels" (or some such thing, haven't checked Japanese yet), I suspect as a reference to 2I. My own suspicions are that Adam's kids were, somehow, an important part of Seele's 2I (as opposed to "the 2I that didn't go so well"), and, in order to try again, they once again needed all of the Apostles at hand. (Meaning, wait for them to show up, kill them, and...)

The "reduction to an egg" thing still doesn't make much sense to me, since Misato's line makes it sound as if it was done on purpose (???). I can't even figure out how someone who exploded could degenerate into anything, let alone what that would have to do with "reducing the damage before the other Angels woke up" (<-- need to check on that more thoroughly).

Notice how grouchy Fuyutsuki was when he showed up at the Artificial Evolution Laboratory for the first time? ;)

Excellent. Now the question is, how does that link up with what Gendo says in #25' ("Death gives birth to nothing")?
Sorry, I don't read anything you post. :P J/K Actually, I forgot about all of that stuff that you linked to. But still, sabatoge lurks in the shadowy alley. :ph34r: Or, the Katsuragi team was doing what they were supposed to be doing and they failed, or did they do what they were supposed to do, but just didn't know they were going to die. Either way, as memory serves me, Keel didn't seem very fond of the Katsuragi team from the get-go.

Reichu

June 17th, 2006, 07:53 AM

Sorry, I don't read anything you post. :P J/K
Well, I think I can be too long-winded for some. ;)

But still, sabatoge lurks in the shadowy alley. :ph34r:
Something to consider, anyway. Second Impact remains a huge mystery, so I'm not going to reject the possibility off hand.

Or, the Katsuragi team was doing what they were supposed to be doing and they failed, or did they do what they were supposed to do, but just didn't know they were going to die.
Might be the former, considering what we know of Seele.

Either way, as memory serves me, Keel didn't seem very fond of the Katsuragi team from the get-go.
"A means to an end." (Later, they use Evas, 'an existence loathed by humans'.) When Keel unleashes his tirade, there's actually a subtle indication that the team's leader is the primary target. See here (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-21/episode-21A-scene1.html#cut306). (Although I should fix that "hint of venom" part; when I listened to DEATH the other day, it seemed a bit stronger than that.) Another instance of big irony, considering how utterly important the Doc is to Keel's plans here...

Sorry I haven't posted the Spear stuff yet. Haven't had the necessary energies (for "adjusting to new, crappy job reasons" :P ).

ElDusto

June 17th, 2006, 10:37 AM

Well, I think I can be too long-winded for some. ;)

Something to consider, anyway. Second Impact remains a huge mystery, so I'm not going to reject the possibility off hand.

Might be the former, considering what we know of Seele.

"A means to an end." (Later, they use Evas, 'an existence loathed by humans'.) When Keel unleashes his tirade, there's actually a subtle indication that the team's leader is the primary target. See here (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-21/episode-21A-scene1.html#cut306). (Although I should fix that "hint of venom" part; when I listened to DEATH the other day, it seemed a bit stronger than that.) Another instance of big irony, considering how utterly important the Doc is to Keel's plans here...

Sorry I haven't posted the Spear stuff yet. Haven't had the necessary energies (for "adjusting to new, crappy job reasons" :P ).
Actually, I was being sarcastic. :P But, I do read everything you post, no matter how long it is.

CanonRAP

June 17th, 2006, 02:29 PM

Sorry, I don't read anything you post. J/K Actually, I forgot about all of that stuff that you linked to. But still, sabatoge lurks in the shadowy alley.

I think when I said it, oh, a page ago, I gave the wrong impression. I just meant that it would be odd for Yui to sabotage 2I, since she probably wasn't even there. I didn't mean sabotage was a rare thing in NGE (which it isn't).

Or, the Katsuragi team was doing what they were supposed to be doing and they failed, or did they do what they were supposed to do, but just didn't know they were going to die.

I have no idea what Dr.K's profession actually is (what kind of scientist/researcher, etc.) so I can't say whether or not he knew what was going on, or if he knew but tried to make the best of it anyways. But IMO, he was just following Seele's intructions which led to his demise.

Either way, as memory serves me, Keel didn't seem very fond of the Katsuragi team from the get-go.

His rant about 'scientists' seems to be proof of that (even though Gendo, as a scientist, is also present)

Something to consider, anyway. Second Impact remains a huge mystery, so I'm not going to reject the possibility off hand.

For now, just leave it at "Spear + Adam = Boom"?

"A means to an end." (Later, they use Evas, 'an existence loathed by humans'.) When Keel unleashes his tirade, there's actually a subtle indication that the team's leader is the primary target. See here (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-21/episode-21A-scene1.html#cut306). (Although I should fix that "hint of venom" part; when I listened to DEATH the other day, it seemed a bit stronger than that.) Another instance of big irony, considering how utterly important the Doc is to Keel's plans here...

For some reason, I never once noticed that section was up.

Mr. Tines

June 17th, 2006, 02:47 PM

His rant about 'scientists' seems to be proof of that (even though Gendo, as a scientist, is also present)

Is there any evidence that Gendo is a scientist, rather than simply a chancer who is good at fixing deals?

CanonRAP

June 17th, 2006, 03:05 PM

Is there any evidence that Gendo is a scientist, rather than simply a chancer who is good at fixing deals?

I have no idea, actually...I just saw him in a lab coat and assumed that he's a scientist ^_^.

Reichu

June 17th, 2006, 06:55 PM

I have no idea what Dr.K's profession actually is (what kind of scientist/researcher, etc.)
The original application of the S^2 Theory was apparently supposed to be for an actual engine that, using the double-coil shape, would produce perpetual energy. I'm guessing the fellow was an energy researcher. (Which makes one wonder why he was put in charge of that investigation, when, evidently, Adam -- the one with an organic manifestation of Dr. Katsuragi's beloved Super Solenoid -- hadn't even been "discovered" yet...)

According to the Laws of Evangelion, he also must have been at Kyoto Uni, since all of the most brilliant academics in Japan automatically gravitate there (pre-2I). Well, the real university *does* have a department for energy research. Also, due to his ravishing bishie good looks, at least 60% of the students in any given class the Doctor taught were females there to ogle. But this entire paragraph is obviously gratuitous. ;)

so I can't say whether or not he knew what was going on, or if he knew but tried to make the best of it anyways. But IMO, he was just following Seele's intructions which led to his demise.
Katsuragi-hakase's place in things is sort of fringe territory, but extremely interesting stuff, since I don't think 2I can be cracked without giving him plenty of attention... I'm not too sure about him just "following instructions". At the very least, he had enough of a personal investment in "that day" to make it worth dragging a daughter who hates him down to a top-secret UN facility and have her watch the proceedings.* Gotta wonder...

His rant about 'scientists' seems to be proof of that (even though Gendo, as a scientist, is also present)

Gendo isn't a scientist. He was acting as an auditor for the Katsuragi Investigation Team. At Gehirn, he was the chief of operations. Up through his Nerv position, he does a lot of stuff involving funding (like going to all of those meetings; and check out his discourse with Kozo when the latter first shows up at the AEL) -- and concealing/manipulating information is another specialty, of course.

He does think scientists are da sheeyat, though, and he's been laughing at that crochety old German dude this entire time. Fufufu.

For now, just leave it at "Spear + Adam = Boom"?
"I'm afraid I can't do that." :shifty:

For some reason, I never once noticed that section was up.
That's strange; I've linked to it a lot. You can see what 'prelim pages' (http://www.evacommentary.org/toc.html#prelim) are available by clicking on 'Commentary' in the navbar and following the anchor.

* Gendo "What's this teenager doing here?"
Misato "Uh, I'm, like, Misato [I]Katsuragi. I never asked to be here. FOAD."
Gendo ":leer: Cute kid."
Keel "Who's responsible for this travesty?"
Akira "I'm sorry, Keel-sempai. I had her brought here. I want Misato-chan to see the bright future. :dreamy smile:"
Keel "Akira-kun, the hell? This is a top-secret UN base, not a goddam middle school."
Akira "Don't worry. She's a nice girl."
Misato "Bite me, Dad. 'Bright future'? Like I haven't heard THAT one before. Can I go back to Japan now?"

Reichu

June 18th, 2006, 12:06 PM

Now, while I did say at some point that I was just going to churn out the rest of the CI regardless of how crappy the results, these last few sections really do seem to be too important to recklessly screw up, after all. Been delayed a bit, but I got to sit down with "Spear of Longinus" today and realize, with horror, that both C and D are problematic... If A-L once again answers my call (and I've been having fairly good luck lately), the decreased sense of uncertainty will be worth it.

BTW, did the revised version of Second Impact's (D) entry make sense? (To those for whom the old crap version didn't.)

Ornette

June 18th, 2006, 01:03 PM

BTW, did the revised version of Second Impact's (D) entry make sense? (To those for whom the old crap version didn't.)
Yeah, it's better. It's clearer that a global scale catastrophe was prevented.

Reichu

June 20th, 2006, 10:17 AM

UGH!!! http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/headbash.gif I hope you kids have as much fun with this one as I did!

*****

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C031_col-disc_mid.jpg

22. The Spear of Longinus

A. Publicly Released Information

Data unavailable.

B. Generally Recognized Information

It was found in the White Moon with Adam at the South Pole. In essence, the Spear of Longinus is a security device that comes as a set with a Seed of Life.

C. Confidential Information

It is a spear which has a will and is a type of lifeform capable of moving by itself. This is an item close to a god and thus able to put a Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity), who holds the power of eternal life, into suspended animation, and this is the reason why the Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity) does not reach god-status. The First Ancestral Race prepared this as a counter-measure in the event that a Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity) did not follow their own goals.

It is thought that a Spear acting as Lilith's counterpart was separated from her by the shock at the time of First Impact. This Spear has yet to be found. There is a chance that it may have been destroyed.

D. In-Depth Information

For the purpose of opening the Path to Divinity, Gendo and Seele brought Lilith's growth to a point just before the final stage, and to temporarily delay this they are having Nerv transport the Spear of Longinus that was paired with Adam.

Footnotes for 22

Have you noticed how much longer the footnotes are than what they accompany? BTW, if you want to see what sort of pain goes into this stuff, look here (http://www.animelyrics.com/forum/topic_show.pl?tid=23758;pg=1).

22-B. The specifics for the wording of the second sentence are ambiguous. Are they just reiterating the part about it being found with Adam ("as a set") with "(the) Seed of Life", referring specifically back to Adam, or are they telling us that every Seed comes paired up with her own "security device"?

"Security device" is hoan souchi. Excite (http://www.excite.co.jp/dictionary/japanese_english/?search=%E4%BF%9D%E5%AE%89&match=beginswith&block=65799&offset=1244) defines hoan as "the preservation [maintenance] of public peace [security]".

22-C. Just so you know, this entry is kind of a *****.

The implications of "will" (ishi) are, according to Barret (@ A-L), "the ability to think for itself, make decisions, and act on them, or what we call 'free will'." My oh my.

"Kore wa kami ni chikai = fushi no chikara o motta seimei no tane (shigen no sonzai) ugoki o teishi saseru koto ga dekiru item de ari, seimei no tani (shigen no sonzai ga kami ni oyobanai, sono riyuu de mo aru." We're getting this "close to a god" stuff again. Originally I'd thought that it was referring to "Seed of Life" (since they referred to Adam and the Evas as "close to gods" earlier), but Lothe @ A-L (who's been providing a lot of help, bless vis soul) helped me get past my preconceptions and break down the ginormous sentence properly. (Everything between "kami ni chikai =" and "item" is one, long modifier for the latter.)

"Put... into suspended animation" is literally "stop/suspend the movement/workings of ...", just FYI. It seemed to flow a bit better... but you can take from it what you will.

The headaches begin when we start dealing with the provided reason why the Spear does this, seimei no tane ... ga kami ni oyabanai. I initially took this as being "(because) a Seed of Life doesn't amount to / isn't cut out to be / falls short of a god". Somewhat obviously, I had the Duel of the Seeds stuck in my head, with the one who "falls short" getting KO'd. Without knowing the full context (perhaps not a bad thing), Lothe commented, "It seems to say that 'the fact that the Seed of Life is not a god [lit. does not equal/amount to a god] is also for that reason.' But I'm not sure which reason that is. (Is the Seed of Life not a god *because* this 'item' is close to a god? That doesn't make much sense to me, but maybe you're in a better position to tell." To that, I said, "Ah, I think I might get it... Another entry says, 'In essence, the Spear of Longinus is a security device that comes as a set with a Seed of Life.' Perhaps the passage above is saying that the Spear of Longinus is able to act as a security device in times of conflict between Seeds of Life only because they're not full-fledged 'gods', and are thus subordinate to the Spear's power." Barret chipped in, "I think you've ... got the wrong nuance of oyabu [oyabanai = negative form]. It means in this case to 'reach God/attain god-like status'. So, 'this is the reason why the Seed of Life never reaches God-status' (because the Longinus Spear has free will, comes to the decision when the Seed of Life is getting too close to becoming god, and uses its power to stop it.)" Hmm... Well, I think I'm sort of torn on this one... Discuss.

"The First Ancestral Race prepared this as a counter-measure in the event that a Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity) did not follow their own goals." Perhaps "the Seeds of Life" would be better here? Well, just remember that the original Japanese carries no article and doesn't specify plural or singular.

"It is thought that a Spear, acting as Lilith's counterpart..." The "acting as" part might be unnecessary. I used "a Spear" here because they say "this Spear" (kono yari) one sentence later, so it seemed justified.

The verbs here exist to annoy. The agent, (lit.) "(the) shock at the time of First Impact", 'apparently' caused the Spear to nukeru and then hanarebanare ni naru "from Lilith". The former has a certain painful level of ambiguity to it, at least if you're a n00b and you have no idea what you're doing; see e.g. Excite ( http://www.excite.co.jp/dictionary/japanese_english/?search=%E6%8A%9C%E3%81%91&match=beginswith&block=64575&offset=532). The latter essentially means, according to SpaceAlc, "get separated, be dispersed, drift apart". (Incidentally, the contextual examples there spoke of people being separated: separated relatives, long-distance marriage, twins separated at birth, split family, etc.) Lothe said, " My impression is that in this sentence, nukeru is used in the sense of 'fall out'. (Nuku means "extract" or "pull out", but here the yari ga nukeru, rather than having someone act on the Spear.) The problem is that it's difficult to work both 'extracted'/'fall out (of)" and "separated (from)" into the same sentence here, since they have the same cause and so would be redundant and unnatural."

The two verbs do seem to be expressing distinctly separate ideas, however: (1) Spear gets "extracted" from its owner, (2) It flies off asunder to who-knows-where. Two levels of "separation", the local one and then the long-distance one. So how could they both be expressed in English without things sounding really stupid??

And, oh yes. I said, "[i]Nukeru piqued my curiosities, however, because I wasn't particularly certain as to its exact 'behavior' here. I sort of took it from the entire context that Lilith and the Spear's separation was a matter of mere happenstance, but, due to newbitude, I wanted to ask whether or not implications on the part of nukeru that the Spear takes off 'of its own accord' could be feasibly eliminated or not." Lothe: "I think it can (mild guess alert). My description of nuku/nukeru above is either correct or backwards (I'm guessing nuku is vi and nukeru is vt), but either way it seems clear that the separation is caused by the shock (shougeki)." Should at least get the vi/vt straightened out.

22-D. I still have some questions about this one... But I'll give you what I have anyway. The sentence structure has been rearranged somewhat for your own safety; if you want the more literal take, I can provide later.

Lilith no zoushoku, which I put down as "Lilith's growth", is a difficult one to gauge. You can look at some contextual examples (http://www2.alc.co.jp/ejr/index.php?word_in=%91%9D%90B&word_in2=%82%A0%82%A2%82%A4%82%A6%82%A8&word_in3=PVawEWi72JXCKoa0Je) at SpaceAlc's Eijiro (although you might not be able to read half of it...).

Adam to set ni natte ita Longinus no yari: Both rockthing and Lothe @ A-L interpreted this as meaning that the Spear is being transported "as a set with Adam", but it seems to me like it's saying, "the Spear of Longinus that formed a set / was paired up with Adam" (referring to its intrinsic status). I should ask before committing to this, but if this interpretation was correct, I think it would be referring to the Spear that the Katsuragi Team found with Adam ("as a set") in the White Moon -– although it doesn't necessarily belong to her. But, again, don't go hogwild with this one until I ask.

Mr. Tines

June 20th, 2006, 10:49 AM

This is an item close to a god

"close to a god" ... "This is a Transcendent device" or "this is of trans-human manufacture"?

...and thus able to ... as a counter-measure

Better than a growth of mould on the GeoFront walls, I guess... I wonder, given the dates, if Anno-tachi had heard of the 1993 Hugo winner.

are they telling us that every Seed comes paired up with her own "security device"? ... because the Longinus Spear has free will, comes to the decision when the Seed of Life is getting too close to becoming god, and uses its power to stop it.

Spreading anti-Perversion devices around where there is the possibility one might arise would seem like a sensible thing to do.

Shin-seiki

June 20th, 2006, 10:51 AM

WTF!! So did this just shoot the Duel of the Seeds out of the water or what?
Fer crying out loud, Reichu, I've been going around on other forums (http://madboards.madman.com.au/viewtopic.php?p=559506#559506), confidently stating that the Spear found embedded in Adam was actually Lilith's, and then you blindside me with this :blink: :| >_<

Reichu

June 20th, 2006, 11:02 AM

"close to a god" ... "This is a Transcendent device" or "this is of trans-human manufacture"?

The former.

Better than a growth of mould on the GeoFront walls, I guess... I wonder, given the dates, if Anno-tachi had heard of the 1993 Hugo winner.

Eh?

Spreading anti-Perversion devices around where there is the possibility one might arise would seem like a sensible thing to do.

Eh, again?

WTF!! So did this just shoot the Duel of the Seeds out of the water or what?

I guess there's a possibility it did. Sure raises more questions than it answers, no? (But did you read all of the notes?)

Blader5489

June 20th, 2006, 11:04 AM

The Lance (yes, Lance =P) stuff makes some sense, thought it certainly is worthy of the head-banging smilie. However, there's still one thing about it that I can't understand.

Why did using Lillith for Third Impact rely on the Lance? In EoE, SEELE laments over how the LoL being in space prevents them from using Lillith and forces them to use EVA-01 as a substitute. But wouldn't the Lance just be counter-productive towards anything that happens in Third Impact (assuming that SEELE, and not Gendo, was controlling it)?

Shin-seiki

June 20th, 2006, 11:14 AM

I guess there's a possibility it did. Sure raises more questions than it answers, no? (But did you read all of the notes?)Is there something there that offers a way out of this mess?

Mr. Tines

June 20th, 2006, 11:23 AM

Eh? ... Eh, again?

Slightly spoileriffic references to Vinge's novel (from 1992) A Fire upon the Deep, and musings whether the fen at Gainax might have heard of it.

From the PoV of the FAR, if you're intent on filling the galaxy with human-level life, you don't want a god-cancer (cancer-god?) to arise from your superhuman agents, so an equally distributed check is a sensible thing to construct.

In Vinge's novel, Perversion and Countermeasure are found together because both were long ago spammed to archives across a distributed civilisation. The FAR have the advantage of being the original fount; and a deliberate pairing can achieve the intent.

His countermeasure device, when instantiated in material form, was much less glamorous than a ~50m long spear, though.

ElDusto

June 20th, 2006, 11:28 AM

Ornette

June 20th, 2006, 11:54 AM

22. The Spear of Longinus
Yeah, this was one of the sections where me and rockthing kept going back and forth "WTF, you sure it doesn't say something like this, <stuff>?", "Yep, I'm pretty sure" that went on over IM that didn't make it into the comments that I gave to Reichu.

There is a chance that is may have been destroyed.
nitpicky: is = it

The specifics for the wording of the second sentence are ambiguous. Are they just reiterating the part about it being found with Adam ("as a set") with "(the) Seed of Life", referring specifically back to Adam, or are they telling us that every Seed comes paired up with her own "security device"?
Based off of the next section (C), it looks like there's a spear for every seed.

So, 'this is the reason why the Seed of Life never reaches God-status' (because the Longinus Spear has free will, comes to the decision when the Seed of Life is getting too close to becoming god, and uses its power to stop it.)" Hmm... Well, I think I'm sort of torn on this one... Discuss.
You know, this makes a lot of sense to me, for reasons I'm unable to articulate. 2 things immediately comes to mind when I read that; the spear coming to Eva-01 from the moon (uh-oh, god-status alert, must act), and the reason Seele needed the spear to begin with (we don't want to create a god, we just want to be tang). Whether any of that is true or not, I dunno, need to think about it some more.

"The First Ancestral Race prepared this as a counter-measure in the event that a Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity) did not follow their own goals." Perhaps "the Seeds of Life" would be better here? Well, just remember that the original Japanese carries no article and doesn't specify plural or singular.
I think "a Seed of Life" makes more sense if every seed has a spear, which the other sections seem to indicate.

Adam to set ni natte ita Longinus no yari: Both rockthing and Lothe @ A-L interpreted this as meaning that the Spear is being transported "as a set with Adam", but it seems to me like it's saying, "the Spear of Longinus that formed a set / was paired up with Adam" (referring to its intrinsic status). I should ask before committing to this, but if this interpretation was correct, I think it would be referring to the Spear that the Katsuragi Team found with Adam ("as a set") in the White Moon -– although it doesn't necessarily belong to her. But, again, don't go hogwild with this one until I ask.
Hmm, the implications of section D will make or break the "owner" of the spear sticking out of Adam. Will await until you ask.

WTF!! So did this just shoot the Duel of the Seeds out of the water or what?
I think there still could have been some Duel or altercation of some kind. It just seems that Lilith got the KO using Adam's spear instead of hers. Then again, it could be that Adam was doing something bad and the spear decided to act, and Lilith just got lucky.

Why did using Lillith for Third Impact rely on the Lance? In EoE, SEELE laments over how the LoL being in space prevents them from using Lillith and forces them to use EVA-01 as a substitute. But wouldn't the Lance just be counter-productive towards anything that happens in Third Impact (assuming that SEELE, and not Gendo, was controlling it)?
See comment following my 4th quote

Is there something there that offers a way out of this mess?
Well, depending on how the last sentence in section D is translated, it could sound like it was Lilith's spear instead of the spear that was paired with Adam.

Either way, this section brings up a lot of questions, and the discussion on it could take up its own thread. The "There is a chance that is may have been destroyed." concerning Lilith's spear is particularly interesting...

CanonRAP

June 20th, 2006, 12:49 PM

WTF!! So did this just shoot the Duel of the Seeds out of the water or what?
Fer crying out loud, Reichu, I've been going around on other forums, confidently stating that the Spear found embedded in Adam was actually Lilith's, and then you blindside me with this

*raises hand* you're not alone...how ironic that what all the new people from 2006 and onwards are actually right in that it's Adam's Spear stuck in herself.

But it doesn't neccessarily mean that DotS never took place...just that it went a different route than what most people would've envisioned (instead of Spear-vs-Spear, it was probably more with hands and feet ((and teeth?)) until the Spear took action)

Based off of the next section (C), it looks like there's a spear for every seed.

Weren't people talking about this a while ago? About how each Seed came with a Spear, a Carrier-Moon, and a Seed-Moon?

You know, this makes a lot of sense to me, for reasons I'm unable to articulate. 2 things immediately comes to mind when I read that; the spear coming to Eva-01 from the moon (uh-oh, god-status alert, must act), and the reason Seele needed the spear to begin with (we don't want to create a god, we just want to be tang). Whether any of that is true or not, I dunno, need to think about it some more.

That's a pretty good explanation...if the Spear act on its own, then it would explain the 'pointing-at-throat' thing.

Reichu

June 20th, 2006, 01:01 PM

Fer crying out loud, Reichu, I've been going around on other forums (http://madboards.madman.com.au/viewtopic.php?p=559506#559506), confidently stating that the Spear found embedded in Adam was actually Lilith's, and then you blindside me with this :blink: :| >_<

Is that intended to be as harsh as it sounds?

EDIT: How's about Ornette's suggestion for a separate Spear-thread? (Relocating discussions seems to often have the effect of killing them, for some reason, but...)

Asking about (D) now.

On an aside, the concept that Lilith's spear is out of the picture seems untenably bizarre, considering things like this...

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/26_C438.jpg

...which were extraordinarily "WTF?!?" in the first place.

Mr. Tines

June 20th, 2006, 01:54 PM

If it weren't so clearly the same Spear that Yui summons that Rei threw away, I would have suggested that there might have been a bit of the old gypsy switch going on during the chaos of 3I.

Shin-seiki

June 20th, 2006, 02:31 PM

Is that intended to be as harsh as it sounds?[...puts aside voodoo doll labeled "Reichu"] -_-;
Sorry, it's just that I'm on record saying stuff like this:Altho she hasn't posted an 'official' translation of the relevant section yet, Reichu reports that the NGE2 Classified Info states flatly that the Spear of Longinus belongs to Lilith and arrived on earth with her at the time of First Impact. As for the part about Lilith using the Spear to 'take out' Adam, Anno sort of dances around the notion in NGE2, without spelling it out in so many words, but it is by far the most reasonable extrapolation of the evidence that we have to work with:
1: We're told that the Spear is Lilith's and arrived with her.
2: We see in the Test Type OP (and the old version of the Reiquarium scene in #23') that Adam was discovered impaled on the Spear within the White Moon.And you yourself just published this:Duel of the Seeds

Unofficial name for the primordial battle between Adam and Lilith (technically speculative). To summarize: Adam arrived on Earth first and was slated to produce a human race to inhabit it ("the true successors from the White Moon"), but, due to sheer bad luck, Lilith's Black Moon collided into the planet in the vicinity of current-day Antarctica. (This resulted in First, or Giant, Impact, and the creation of Luna.) As another Seed of Life, Lilith had a duty to perform, as well -- but, since one planet can only support one form of life, one of the two Seeds had to be neutralized. Wielding the Spear of Longinus, her weapon and energy source, Lilith confronted her counterpart within the White Moon so as to determine, through a duel using the Spears both had been sent with, which of them was more worthy to bring humanity to Earth. Adam was defeated, run through with Lilith's Spear of Longinus and placed into suspended animation -- only to be discovered and reawakened by Lilith's own offspring some four billion years later.

The most blatant hint in the show is the image of Adam being exhumated, wherein the tines of the Spear of Longinus are visible emerging from her back -- i.e., she's skewered on it. A long while back, Shin-seiki forwarded the idea that it was Lilith who did the impaling, the only probable scenario since "Lilith was the only other living being around at the time [and she] had means, motive, and opportunity." This took a while to sink in, though, since people (like Reichu) can be rather dense at times. Things seemed to start falling into place a bit more succinctly once the Spear's ties to Lilith were properly addressed. The NGE2 Classified Information also turned up, the contents of which buttressed and elaborated upon the assembly work we'd already done. I've also speculated that the battle between EVA-02 and EVA-01 in #24 is, in essence, a "replay" of the initial duel: only between "Adam's alter ego" (spoken by Kaworu, #24) and "Lilith's alter ego" (Keel, #25') this time around, with the Black Moon as the stage. So, I hope you can understand that I'm in major "AARRGGHHH!!!..." mode right now. I'll have to go back on Madboards and do an Emily Latela-esque "Oh-ho, that's different! Never mind... :)"

Reichu

June 20th, 2006, 03:05 PM

[...puts aside voodoo doll labeled "Reichu"] -_-;
Were DatDude and Seele08 selling those?

Sorry, it's just that I'm on record saying stuff like this: "Reichu reports that the NGE2 Classified Info states flatly that the Spear of Longinus belongs to Lilith and arrived on earth with her at the time of First Impact."

Well, that DID turn out to be in the CI after all, no? It's just that a more comprehensive reading -- which wasn't available at the time -- implies that we might be talking about "A" Spear of Longinus rather than "THE" Spear of Longinus", but Japanese by its very nature sucks like this. Or, at least, an adequate understanding of the cues that compensate for such things as the lack of articles and plurals is probably only gained with time and practice.

And you yourself just published this

And it's about to be molested somewhat.

I will say, tho, that this Spear stuff is far too wacky for me to commit to anything right now, including the elimination of DotS from the game board. Starting from square one might be the best approach overall (IMO). "The only thing that's certain is uncertainty."

Jabberwok

June 20th, 2006, 03:15 PM

...considering things like this...
Are you meaning to say the Harpies' Heavy-Lances are of the same line as Lilith's "missing" Lance? Perhaps created in a way similar to how Rei-buds may or may not be harvested? Not disagreeing, just want to know if that's where you were going.

The First Ancestral Race prepared this as a counter-measure in the event that a Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity) did not follow their own goals.
This both does and does not make sense for me.

What doesn't make much sense is why Adam would be "suspended" in the first place. In what way did she 'not follow their own goals'? I would have expected Lilith, as an interloper, to be the one skewered. Was Adam planning to do something "not in the book", perhaps to her children, in response to Lilith?

What kind of makes sense is why Seele had wanted to destroy the Lance, but not why they were so upset about losing it to Arael. Clearly their plan to use tang as a path to divinity would have angered the Lance, but what would its purpose have been before its destruction? To destroy the Seed that initiated Third Impact before it could leave or form the Tree of Life or something? [I have a pet theory that the intended Units 05-16 (count 12, as in twelve monoliths) were to be Seele's indended god-shells after 3I. The Lance would not have approved. 12... 12.. The 12 Titans perhaps?]

But enough questions. As had been hinted to in the past, this CI entry was quite meaty and very tasty. I again thank you (translators) for your efforts.

Reichu

June 20th, 2006, 03:43 PM

Are you meaning to say the Harpies' Heavy-Lances are of the same line as Lilith's "missing" Lance? Perhaps created in a way similar to how Rei-buds may or may not be harvested? Not disagreeing, just want to know if that's where you were going.
I had thought that perhaps the manner of the Copies' destruction (exploding into Tang-colored blobs with Rei-sprout-looking things sticking out) was a visual allusion back to the owner of the "Original" (the one that was stuck in the Moon).

What doesn't make much sense is why Adam would be "suspended" in the first place. In what way did she 'not follow their own goals'? I would have expected Lilith, as an interloper, to be the one skewered. Was Adam planning to do something "not in the book", perhaps to her children, in response to Lilith?

Perhaps Seeds "not following their own goals" alludes to two of them ending up on the same world. Ergo, one must get KO'd "for the sake of 'public safety'", because otherwise you have your two lines of humans killing each other. Or something.

Clearly their plan to use tang as a path to divinity would have angered the Lance, but what would its purpose have been before its destruction? To destroy the Seed that initiated Third Impact before it could leave or form the Tree of Life or something?
They say that they can't achieve complementation/Instrumentality via Lilith without the Spear. Hmm.

[I have a pet theory that the intended Units 05-16 (count 12, as in twelve monoliths) were to be Seele's indended god-shells after 3I. The Lance would not have approved. 12... 12.. The 12 Titans perhaps?]

The 12 harpies/12 Seele Dudes observation has come up before... I have some inarticulate thoughts about this (of no particular consequence, since they're inarticulate), but, whatever Seele had planned, I think they just wanted to use the Evas for "opening the Path to Divinity", and then everyone gets fused into one big, happy hivemind. Humanity's "colony" existence is abandoned for a "singular" one.

EDIT: Forgot to paste this into the box...

If it weren't so clearly the same Spear that Yui summons that Rei threw away, I would have suggested that there might have been a bit of the old gypsy switch going on during the chaos of 3I.

"Old gypsy switch"? :P

The "summoning" thing is another problem... How DO you explain all this?

Yui takes in Shinji and blasts open a path to the surface, straight through the Nerv pyramid.
The cross of light reforms into two wings; Yui levitates out; the surroundings are whipped into a furor by (presumably) the deployment of her ATF.
She pops off her pylons; the two wings split into four.
On the Moon, an ATF blur begins to 'affect' the Spear. It starts pulling out slowly, and finally, when the blur hits the peak of intensity, it whisks out and zooms back to Earth.
The non-bident end comes directly to Yui's throat (she's already bent backwards with it exposed, as if in anticipation?); the environs immediately settle down.
Seele are all happy, and they start the proceedings.

And later on, it fuses with her only AFTER mysterious things have happened to result in Yui finally getting the actual Fruit of Life (courtesy of Kaworu-Adam and big hands, if the sequence of events means anything...) and thus, in theory, actualizing the 'godhood' Seele didn't want her to have. And then, even later, after she's sprouted 12 wings, Yui "hacks up" the Spear (which magically reappears "out of nowhere", accompanied by a spray of red) and apparently makes it work for HER.

Also, Lilith, before falling apart, was allowed to become immensely huge, S2-powered, and 12-winged, and wiped organic life off the face of the planet. And the Spear just stands by in ToL form and gets eaten by Lilith's forehead. "Oh, okay, whatever. It's all good."

So, uh, what's going on, again?

thewayneiac

June 20th, 2006, 06:10 PM

I think there still could have been some Duel or altercation of some kind. It just seems that Lilith got the KO using Adam's spear instead of hers.

I can see it all now; it's just like in shows like Dragonball and Yu Yu Hakusho:

Lilith crashes onto Earth and goes looking for Adam. When she arrives in what eventually becomes Antarctica, Adam's spear realizes that Lilith is breaking the rules by just being there and goes after her. With The Spear close behind her, Lilith runs straight at Adam and ducks!

Yep, that must be what happened.

Seriously, it looks like Lilith's Spear is probably out of the picture. If the Spear in the show is Lilith's, then where is Adam's?

Reichu

June 20th, 2006, 07:07 PM

Seriously, it looks like Lilith's Spear is probably out of the picture. If the Spear in the show is Lilith's, then where is Adam's?

I'm confused. Don't you mean the other way around...?

My take on the bit in (D) should be right, all context considered.

As things stand, far more mysteries have been generated than supposed "answers", particularly with regard to this Spear stuff. The CI is hardly the end-all be-all that people have hoped for, and there is tons of stuff in the show that it doesn't lay a finger on. (At least, not in any obvious way.) I'm probably just tired and cranky, but it's times like these that I feel my geek-faith in the show's solvability factor die a little.

Two more entries of mind-rapeage to go. :sigh:

ElDusto

June 20th, 2006, 08:57 PM

So, Lillith lost her SoL when the Black Moon impacted Earth; and Lillith impaled Adam with Adam's SoL. That's the way I'm interpreting that.
I'm thinking the Spear joined with Yui to stop Lillith from going any farther with 3I cause maybe it knew and approved of Yui's intentions?

Mr. Tines

June 20th, 2006, 10:16 PM

"Old gypsy switch"? :P

Substitution via prestidigitation e.g. the subject gives the worker an object, and the worker then switches it with a prepared object of the same type e.g. a normal egg subtituted by an egg full of blood.

Also, Lilith, before falling apart, was allowed to become immensely huge, S2-powered, and 12-winged, and wiped organic life off the face of the planet

The countermeasure may simply take time to activate, if it has to draw from some other local resources, perhaps. After all, the end result was the neutralisation of Lilith and the conditions for life to return.

kaos

June 21st, 2006, 08:05 AM

For something that has a will of its own, the Spear sure seems be manipulated a lot.

thewayneiac

June 21st, 2006, 09:23 AM

Reichu

June 21st, 2006, 02:05 PM

Am I alone in thinking that pretty much nothing makes sense right now? Well, I mean, some of it makes perfect sense, whereas other parts seem to be going contra the cues in the actual show and turning everything into even more of an incomprehensible mess than it already was. Trusting that the CI is all "straight from the horse's mouth", I feel like most of what I've been doing is fan-wankage after all.

Ornette

June 21st, 2006, 02:09 PM

Am I alone in thinking that pretty much nothing makes sense right now?
I'm not sure if I'm thinking that, more along the lines of a (selective) reassessment. I can forsee discussions along the lines of "What does it mean now that we know <stuff>".

Reichu

June 21st, 2006, 02:25 PM

I'm not sure if I'm thinking that, more along the lines of a (selective) reassessment. I can forsee discussions along the lines of "What does it mean now that we know <stuff>".

It's still hard to say what we actually "know". One has to do a 'reading' of this stuff -- and the show, most importantly -- rather carefully, given the various layers of misconceptions/contradictions, half-truths, cipher, etc. Assuming this is a puzzle that can be solved (and I don't know if it can be), we are being dealt an awful lot of pieces that don't seem to fit anywhere.

But, yeah. I just had a huge tower of work knocked down in one fell swoop (just when things seemed like they were starting to make sense), so I'm feeling slightly bitter and nearly inclined to retire every other theory of mine that second-tier canon alludes against, just for consistency's sake. Thus we would behead, in addition to everything else, the Armisael epiphany and the "EVA-01 = surrogate daughter" stuff (at least), while increasing the demand for Reichu voodoo dolls at the same time.

I pray I don't end up turning to the Dark Side and becoming one of THEM.

Jabberwok

June 21st, 2006, 02:51 PM

Am I alone in thinking that pretty much nothing makes sense right now? Well, I mean, some of it makes perfect sense, whereas other parts seem to be going contra to the cues in the actual show and turning everything into even more of an incomprehensible mess than it already was.
...
Assuming this is a puzzle that can be solved (and I don't know if it can be), we are being dealt an awful lot of pieces that don't seem to fit anywhere.

I'm not sure if I'm thinking that, more along the lines of a (selective) reassessment.

I can recall my first time doing a full watch through of Eva after reading some classic threads on these boards. And when I say "full watch through" I mean a 10+ hour, back-to-back blitz on some weekend.

As opposed to my previous rewatchings, I found myself reading between the lines, lines I hadn't realized exsisted, and incorporating much of what I had read into a more complete understanding of the material. I'm sure others have had similar experiences, especially in early re-viewings.

When NGE2:CI is all said and done, and the discussion on the remaining entries has tappered, I plan on re-reading the meat of this thread, and then sitting down to waste the bulk of a Saturday.

Will I be able to synthesize all that I have read here, and form a new, more complete understanding? I can only hope.

If not... Well, then by that time, I should have a grip of Eureka Seven downloads waiting for me. The following Sunday will at least be entertaining.

Reichu

June 22nd, 2006, 10:51 AM

Hold onto that optimism...

*****

Did a Japanese search for 'kami e no michi' (non-Eva sites) to find out what it actually refers to. I was wrong about the SToL thing. It's apparently a concept in one of the "Four Spiritual Laws" of Christianity, and refers to Jesus Christ in the sense of him being the 'Way to God'.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/law3_way-to-god_nihongo.gif
(Source) (http://www.geocities.co.jp/Berkeley/8610/)

Wasn't too hard to find the English version.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/law3_way-to-god_english.gif

He Is the Only Way to God
"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me'" (John 14:6).

This diagram illustrates that God has bridged the gulf which separates us from Him by sending His Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross in our place to pay the penalty for our sins.

(Source) (http://www.greatcom.org/laws/)

Well, at the very least, that big cross explains this:

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-21/21_C181_b.jpg (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-21/21_C181_big.jpg)

...and wonkiness like Lilith and Yui getting crucified for everybody's sins. And the Eva Series "crucifying" themselves. ...I guess.

"The Way to God" doesn't sound nearly as cool as some of the alternatives, though. Maybe it's just me.

Blader5489

June 22nd, 2006, 02:04 PM

Seeing your post reminds me of a little tidbit I caught on the Web a while back. There was (is?) a Christian legend that stated that the wood the True Cross (the cross Jesus was crucified on) was made from was derived from the Tree of Knowledge. This interpretation was held by several Christians, including Martin Luther, who believed that the cross represented the Tree of Knowledge while Jesus represented the Tree of Life.

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_Knowledge_of_Good_and_Evil#The_f ruit_of_the_tree)

As I see it, this connects to Evangelion in two ways: 1) The cross and the one crucified on it being used to unite Man with God, and 2) Both the Fruit of Life and Fruit of Knowledge required to become godlike. In other words, one needs to obtain both fruits in order to become the link between Mankind and God.

I know a lot of that is already established information, but I thought it'd make a nice corollary for the post above.

Also, out of curiosity (and probably my own forgetfulness), where has the term "kami e no michi" come up?

felineki

June 22nd, 2006, 03:17 PM

Also, out of curiosity (and probably my own forgetfulness), where has the term "kami e no michi" come up?Gendou mentioned it in the very scene that Reichu has screencapped above, saying that Instrumentality was the path to God. That's the only one I can remember off-hand.

Blader5489

June 22nd, 2006, 05:18 PM

Thanks.

See Reichu, all is not lost. ;) That new bit of info you provided clears up a few ambiguous issues (ambiguous to me, anyways), like how the Evas are the 'keys that open the path to divinity.'

CanonRAP

June 22nd, 2006, 10:16 PM

Speaking of Eva-related games, can the stuff from the N64 game count as canon at all?

Maybe I just suck at fighting games, but I can't even get pass Sachiel <_<

Reichu

June 24th, 2006, 11:27 AM

No real progress with Dummy Plug. The Spear entry has created a heavy sense of "weariness" (I'm showing my age), and at the moment I'm being wrung fairly dry by my other obligations. Will do more when I can.

(How does a fan get rid of bile salts, anyway?)

Ornette

June 24th, 2006, 11:44 AM

(How does a fan get rid of bile salts, anyway?)
Huzzah!
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:jlYatWHgfi8J:www.griffin. uga.edu/cfs/research/pdfs/Ecologypathogens2005.pdf+%22bile+salts%2 2+fan&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

OT: rockthing is actually in the states atm (he is mysterious!), he's on a tight schedule but since he's flying out of Pittsburgh when heading back to Nagoya, he'll stop by and I'll ask him to look over the spear entry again, maybe

Reichu

June 26th, 2006, 08:01 PM

Huzzah!
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:jlYatWHgfi8J:www.griffin. uga.edu/cfs/research/pdfs/Ecologypathogens2005.pdf+%22bile+salts%2 2+fan&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1
http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/deskbang.gif

OT: rockthing is actually in the states atm (he is mysterious!), he's on a tight schedule but since he's flying out of Pittsburgh when heading back to Nagoya, he'll stop by and I'll ask him to look over the spear entry again, maybe
A second opinion is always good.

Okay, kids. Here to exhumate long-neglected theories and deliver another dose of "WTF?!?" (albeit one I don't mind that much, since the Dummy Plug never made sense anyway :P ), I humbly present...

*****

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/m25_C395_flip.jpg

23. Dummy Plug

A. Publicly Released Information

Data unavailable.

B. Generally Recognized Information

An entry plug developed for use with the Dummy System. Even if no pilot is present, it can activate an Eva by making her think that a pilot is there.

C. Confidential Information

A copy of a personality is made in the Dummy Plug, but a soul cannot be copied. Why can't it be done, or how would it be done? As far as the technology branches of Seele and Nerv are concerned, it is a theme of research integral to seeking out the Path to God, and study into how to deal with the problem has spanned many years. Examples of failure include Yui and Asuka's mother. The Dummy Plug is something that came about in the midst of that research.

D. In-Depth Information

The Dummy System is an artificial soul that was developed at the end of the research. In terms of functionality, however, the Dummy System was severely subpar: Although it could make Eva activate, that was the limit of its capacity.

Footnotes for 23

23-D: "In terms of functionality..." (Tada kinouteki ni wa oohabateki ni otori, Eva o ugokasu to iu teido no kinou shika motoserarenakatta: This sentence wasn't tackled by rockthing, for some reason. It literally goes something like (according to Lothe), "But it [the Dummy System] was functionally extremely poor, only having enough functionality to make the Eva move." I.e., " the Dummy System had an amount (/limit, teido) of function that was enough to make the Eva move, but it had only (shika) that much function." I reworded things somewhat with the hope that the meaning would be more clear, but if you have any suggestions for improvement... There may be a nuance missing in the second half –- I've asked a question about how the passive causative verb here (motaserarenakatta) is working, just to be sure.

NAveryW

June 26th, 2006, 08:05 PM

An... artificial soul? I thought all those dummy Reis had no souls, so apparently it's referring to the system that accepts the plug itself? Does that mean that there are two souls total within the Evangelion (three in the manga)?

CanonRAP

June 26th, 2006, 08:19 PM

Okay, kids. Here to exhumate long-neglected theories and deliver another dose of "WTF?!?" (albeit one I don't mind that much, since the Dummy Plug never made sense anyway :P ), I humbly present...

Ah, here we go...

An entry plug developed for use with the Dummy System. Even if no pilot is present, it can activate an Eva by making her think that a pilot is there.

The sentence "even if no pilot is present..." also seem to conveniently point out that there is nobody inside the Dummy Plug.

As far as the technology branches of Seele and Nerv are concerned, it is a theme of research integral to seeking out the Path to God, and study into how to deal with the problem has spanned many years.

I do have to ask at this point...why are the Dummy Plugs so important to the HIP besides the fact that they can control the Evas without pilots?

Examples of failure include Yui and Asuka's mother.

Why didn't they just say Kyoko???

The Dummy Plug is something that came about in the midst of that research.

So someone (a complete guess...Akagi 'baasan'?) just came along and said, "screw making an artificial soul, let's just copy the brainwave patterns." (or something to that effect).

The Dummy System is an artificial soul that was developed at the end of the research. Functionally, however, the Dummy System was severely subpar: Although it could make Eva activate, that was the limit of its capacity.

I'm still assuming that the Dummy System (inside the D-Plug) just basically emits brainwave patterns...

I suppose that the dummies in Seele HQ and Terminal Dogma were simply replacement bodies in case anything happened to either of them...since they both seem to be so important to their respective 'owners'.

I reworded things somewhat with the hope that the meaning would be more clear, but if you have any suggestions for improvement...

Maybe something along the lines of "functionality-wise".

Reichu

June 26th, 2006, 08:36 PM

The sentence "even if no pilot is present..." also seem to conveniently point out that there is nobody inside the Dummy Plug.
The "even if" sounds kind of weird, though. I should ponder -te mo some more.

I do have to ask at this point...why are the Dummy Plugs so important to the HIP besides the fact that they can control the Evas without pilots?
Good question.

Why didn't they just say Kyoko???
Because Asuka's mother has no name. At least, none worth speaking of. ;)

So someone (a complete guess...Akagi 'baasan'?) just came along and said, "screw making an artificial soul, let's just copy the brainwave patterns." (or something to that effect).
The technology used for the MAGI and the Dummy System appears to be closely related... Incidentally, there's also this:

Episode #13

MISATO:
Hey, tell me a little about the Magi.

RITSUKO (OFF):
It's a long story. And not a very interesting one, at that.
Do you know about personality transplant OS?

MISATO:
Yes, it's a system that implants an individual's personality
into a seventh generation organic computer so it can think.
It's the same technology used for operating the Evas, right?

RITSUKO:
I've heard Magi was the first of them.
My mother developed the technology.

Figure that part out, and maybe...

I suppose that the dummies in Seele HQ and Terminal Dogma were simply replacement bodies in case anything happened to either of them...since they both seem to be so important to their respective 'owners'.
The existence of Kaworu clones (assuming that's what you're alluding to) is just an assumption, isn't it? I'm too lam0rz on this topic to form any sort of opinion on its validity -- just playing devil's advocate.

And I am still totally flabbergasted by those Reiquarium clones, and how the stuff about Adam and Evas (which seems to make sense to my brain on its own, more or less) somehow ties back to them...

Episode #23 (Platinum)

MISATO:
So, this is the source of the dummy plugs?

RITSUKO:
I will show you the truth.

SHINJI:
Rei Ayanami?

MISATO:
You're not saying the Evas' dummy plugs are...

RITSUKO:
That's right, the part that becomes the core of the dummy system,
and this is the manufacturing plant for it.

MISATO:
This is?!

RITSUKO (OFF):
These are just dummies.
And nothing more than parts for Rei.
Man found God and in their joy, tried to make Him theirs.
That's why there was divine retribution.
That was fifteen years ago.
The God they found had also disappeared by then.
But then, they tried to resurrect God on their own.
The result was Adam.
And imitating God, they created people from Adam.
The result was the Evas.

SHINJI (OFF):
People? They're human?

RITSUKO:
Yes, they're human.
The Evas do not intrinsically have souls,
but they have human souls embedded in them.
They were all salvaged.
The only vessel that contained a soul was Rei.
She was the only one born with a soul.
The Chamber of Gaf [sic] was empty, you see.
These things here that look like Rei have no souls.
They're just vessels.
That's why I'm going to destroy them.
Because I hate them.

MISATO:
Do you know just what you're doing?!

RITSUKO:
Yes, I know. I'm destroying them.
They're not people. They're things shaped like people.

Maybe something along the lines of "functionality-wise".
...hmm?

CanonRAP

June 26th, 2006, 09:17 PM

The technology used for the MAGI and the Dummy System appears to be closely related... Incidentally, there's also this:

<convo snip>

..I really need to watch NGE again.

The existence of Kaworu clones (assuming that's what you're alluding to) is just an assumption, isn't it? I'm too lam0rz on this topic to form any sort of opinion on its validity -- just playing devil's advocate.

Oh right...forgot about that. Probably saw that in another thread.

And I am still totally flabbergasted by those Reiquarium clones, and how the stuff about Adam and Evas (which seems to make sense to my brain on its own, more or less) somehow ties back to them...

<ep23 convo snip>

Mostly, I was just plucking the new stuff from C-23 and trying to somehow find out what exactly the Rei-tachi are for, in regards to the D-Plugs. Wasn't really thinking about Adam or the Evas yet :P.

...hmm?

I was referring back to your footnote, and basically saying that "Functionally, however..." might sound a bit better if it was worded "Function-wise, however..."

Now that I actually say them out loud, they sound pretty much the same...

Mr. Tines

June 26th, 2006, 10:35 PM

So, not a lot more than a citation index added to Ritsuko's statement in ep#17. The ep#23 Reiquarium ranting remains unreconciled with it - no suggestion that there are organic components in the emulator or involved in MAGI-related technology.

Blader5489

June 27th, 2006, 07:24 AM

I do have to ask at this point...why are the Dummy Plugs so important to the HIP besides the fact that they can control the Evas without pilots?

SEELE needs nine 'complete' Evas to open the Path to Divinity (kami e no michi). The Evas are the key to bridging the gap between Man and God; they're the catalyst for SEELE's scenario of Third Impact. The rest of SEELE's scenario entails that Lillith spreads her anti-AT field, takes over the Evas as a result (that might explain the infinity symbol they form in EoE), and has the Evas crucify themselves. These crucifictions combined with Lillith's anti-AT field reduces individuals to a sea of LCL and allows the various souls to complement each other, which is manifested in the souls merging together with Lillith, resulting in Adam Kadmon - mankind's original form, the state in which Man and it's Creator are one.

According to the CI, SEELE wants the "immortal soul" (i.e. Adam Kadmon) to come into being on their terms. This means that no one else can be allowed to shape this divinity in their own way (which is what Gendo was planning on doing, creating his own personal vision of divinity). If there's a human soul inside Eva, then SEELE runs the risk of having that soul control the outcome of Third Impact (which is what Yui did - because Lillith was unusable, SEELE's hand was forced into using Unit 01 as a substitute, which allowed Yui, the soul inside Unit 01, to ultimately control Third Impact). It's even worse if there's a pilot inside the Eva, like Shinji and how his being inside Unit 01 gave him power to affect Third Impact. The only way to prevent this from happening is to find a way to control the Evas without having to put human souls into the Evas (whether it be the soul residing inside the Eva's core, or the pilot).

Enter the dummy plug.

We know from 24' that Kaworu (which is essentially Adam's soul) can synch with and take control of any Eva so long as that Eva doesn't have an active human soul inside (either the Eva doesn't have a soul in it period, or it simply contains a soul that is "shutting itself up" like Kyoko). This is because Kaworu is Adam's soul and the Evas are clones of Adam's body.

So the dummy plug, which emerged from the research that ultimately birthed the Human Instrumentality Project, was devised as a way of creating an artificial copy of Kaworu's personality (Adam's soul). Therefore, a Kaworu-based Dummy System would be able to activate the completed Eva series, which hypothetically SEELE could then control (I don't think SEELE ever intended to put their souls in the Eva series; I do however think that they wanted to act as remote-pilots for the Eva series, controlling their actions from the comfort of their "Sound Only" monoliths).

*phew* And that's what I've learned from NGE2. ^_^

Reichu

June 27th, 2006, 08:28 AM

Just woke up, so can't offer any intelligent comments ATM... Hopefully things will clarify a bit more once I make a second pass through the material. There are a lot of places where it can be tightened up due to having the full context available, me getting better, and so on.

But first, I have one more entry to do.

kaos

June 27th, 2006, 09:05 AM

And I am still totally flabbergasted by those Reiquarium clones, and how the stuff about Adam and Evas (which seems to make sense to my brain on its own, more or less) somehow ties back to them...I think the Rei vessels have two backup roles:

(1) They are backup bodies for Rei's soul. So on the off chance Rei's body explodes, her soul can be salvaged and plopped into one of the backup bodies.

(2) They are embedded with backups for the dummy system (ie, the artificial copy of Rei's personality). So if they need to create a new dummy plug, they snag one of the Reis and download the system from her and into the new plug.

That explains Ritsuko and Gendo's conversation in the next episode. Something like:

GENDO:
Why did you destroy the dummy system?

RITSUKO:
It's not the dummy system you're so P.O.'ed about. It's the fact that I destroyed Rei.

Gendo's referring to (2) from above. IE, she destroyed all the backups of the dummy system so they can't create anymore plugs. Ritsuko is referring to (1) from above, saying that if Rei blows up again there won't be anywhere to put her soul. (Though, on a deeper level, she's probably also jabbing Gendo by saying he doesn't have anymore Yui clones to fawn over.)

I think that when Ritsuko calls the "vessels" the source of the dummy plugs she isn't referring to the actual bodies, she's referring to the dummy system (ie, artificial personality) that is embedded within the bodies.

I agree that Ritsuko's sudden shift into talking about Adam and Eva seem's kind of out of left field. My only guess would be that she is either trying to go into an overly-detailed explanation of where the Reis came from (ie, she's the only one born witha soul, yada yada); or somehow in her own mind she made a connection between Rei and how Kaworu was born.

SonGokuQ

June 27th, 2006, 11:49 AM

Someone's probably going to stone me for asking this question but here it goes anyway. Who or what is Lilith? I saw somewhere in this thread that Lilith = Rie.

I also saw "The Angels are all heading for Nerv H.Q. so that they can make contact with Lilith, the white giant in Terminal Dogma. They were aiming for her from the start, not Adam." I thought that white giant thing with the seven eyes was Adam. I've went through this entire thread and a couple others and still I'm confused.

Reichu

June 27th, 2006, 12:07 PM

^ Have you seen the entire series? If so, watch episode #24 and EoE again.
If not, watch episode #24 and EoE.

sheaman

June 27th, 2006, 07:25 PM

Not really - it's not something I can tie up to any obvious bit of real physics, or even widely known fringe material.

I'm wicked late but helix=dna?

sheaman

June 27th, 2006, 07:53 PM

Ultimately, because of the phenomenon apparently caused by her S2 Engine artificially going into overdrive, the absolute catastrophe -– the resetting of all life due to A.T. Fields being extinguished –- prevented the formation of a solely Adam-based ecosystem.* This is called the Second Impact. The incident blew Adam completely apart.

* Troublesome sentence. Working on this.

I'll help with fixing the whole sentence if you want, but try this:

"prevented the formation of an ecosystem solely reliant on Adam"
"prevented the formation of an ecosystem based on Adam"
"prevented the formation of an ecosystem which would grow out of Adam" <- sounds like it's literally growing out of Adam though

and i think you could change this too
"the resetting of all life due to A.T. Fields being extinguished"
to
"the destruction of A.T. Fields, resulting in the resetting/extinguishment of all life"

Reichu

June 27th, 2006, 08:05 PM

^ Ah, that's the old crap translation. I posted a better one shortly afterwards... but I suppose I should revise the primary, flashy-looking post.

Reichu

June 30th, 2006, 09:21 AM

Yay, the last one...! Even though I probably should (there's one sorta quirky item), I don't feel like typing up transration notes right now. I'll fill you in later. Maybe my latest questions at AL will have been addressed by then, anyway.

But, f**k, the last day of June?!? I better hurry my butt up and get this onto FGC... (I hope people don't care if I can only arrange the most ghetto possible site "relaunch" by the end of July. :P)

*****

24. Geofront

A. Publicly Released Information

The facilities for Nerv Headquarters were constructed in a mysterious, giant, underground space existing beneath Tokyo-3. It is a hemispherical cavity with a diameter of 6 km and a height of 0.9 km, but 89% of it is currently buried. Sunlight is sent in by optical fibers from a light-condensing block on the surface, maintaining a level of brightness comparable to that on the surface. Although Nerv facilities are nearly the only things being constructed, there are also evacuation shelters for civilians.

B. Generally Recognized Information

In addition to the Geofront where Nerv Headquarters is located, there was one at the South Pole. Moreover, the First Angel, designated "Adam", was discovered within it.

C. Confidential Information

The Geofronts' true identities are the "Black Moon", where Nerv Headquarters is located, and the "White Moon" at the South Pole. Lilith is in the Black Moon, and Adam is in the White.

D. In-Depth Information

Initially, the White Moon -- containing Adam -- fell to Earth. The Black Moon, which originally should have gone to a different solar system, was captured by Earth's gravity, and, after it crashed into the Earth's surface and bounced, it became a satellite orbiting the planet. It left behind only its ruins and remained in the heavens, and Lilith, the Seed that the Black Moon had carried, was implanted into Earth. Lilith's landing site is believed to have been in the vicinity of what is now called the South Pole, but it was later moved by tectonic plates, ultimately as far as the Hakone region of Japan. That site is the giant cavern of Hakone, and the future Nerv Headquarters would be constructed here.

Footnotes for 24

Maybe later...

NAveryW

June 30th, 2006, 12:36 PM

A quick note; your translation makes it seem like the White Moon is at the South Pole, then changes so that it's in space. Should it say that a cavity caused by the white moon was found in Antarctica?

LuigiHann

June 30th, 2006, 01:07 PM

Am I way off with my theory that the "dummy plug" system somehow uses the dummy-reis collectively? I've always assumed that the system somehow simulated a soul and mind by somehow channelling them from the tank as a whole. Not sure how I came to that conclusion, it was just my intuitive reaction, and since the series doesn't go out of its way to explain [anything], I haven't seen anything to confirm or deny it.

CanonRAP

June 30th, 2006, 03:10 PM

Initially, the White Moon -- containing Adam -- fell to Earth. The Black Moon, which originally should have gone to a different solar system, was captured by Earth's gravity, and, after it crashed into the Earth's surface and bounced, it became a satellite orbiting the planet.

Maybe it's just me, but 'bounced' comes off as sounding a bit...funny.

It left behind only its ruins and remained in the heavens, and Lilith, the Seed that the Black Moon had carried, was implanted into Earth.

Wait, then where did it go?

Lilith's landing site is believed to have been in the vicinity of what is now called the South Pole, but it was later moved by tectonic plates, ultimately as far as the Hakone region of Japan. That site is the giant cavern of Hakone, and the future Nerv Headquarters would be constructed here.

The highlighted part interested me the most.

(BTW, how many people here actually saves this stuff in a text file? I did.)

Blader5489

June 30th, 2006, 04:50 PM

Wait, then where did it go?

I think it's saying the carrier-moon crashed into the Earth, and the bulk of it bounced back into space and became the moon. The only part of the carrier-moon that remained on Earth was the Black Moon, which I guess only refers to the cavity containing Lillith.

Also, I'm hoping someone has read my personal summary of SEELE's Third Impact scenario a few posts up so that I can get some feedback. Looking back on it, I need to refine some ideas (such as the catalyst for 3I only needing the Fruit of Life, not both fruits) but I think the general idea works.

Ornette

June 30th, 2006, 05:57 PM

Maybe it's just me, but 'bounced' comes off as sounding a bit...funny.
It does, but it really does say "bounced"

Reichu

June 30th, 2006, 06:12 PM

I think it's saying the carrier-moon crashed into the Earth, and the bulk of it bounced back into space and became the moon. The only part of the carrier-moon that remained on Earth was the Black Moon, which I guess only refers to the cavity containing Lillith.

"Black Moon" seems to refer to both the big ball of rock and the happy little sphere that the FAR made. "Gee, thanks. As if we needed MORE ambiguous terminology." Your assessment above seems to be what the passage is basically saying, yes.

Also, I'm hoping someone has read my personal summary of SEELE's Third Impact scenario a few posts up so that I can get some feedback.
I didn't leave any because there are parts of the translations you were working from that I really wasn't sure about, and things might become a little more clear the 'second time through'.

A quick note; your translation makes it seem like the White Moon is at the South Pole, then changes so that it's in space. Should it say that a cavity caused by the white moon was found in Antarctica?

The White Moon is at the South Pole; I think you mean the Black?

Maybe it's just me, but 'bounced' comes off as sounding a bit...funny.
The wording does bring a rather amusing visual image to mind... It actually uses the word "bound" (in English), which means the same thing as "bounce". "Rebound" sounds the least zany, to my ears -- would a rocky body being thrown back into space after crashing into a planet count as "rebound"?

The highlighted part interested me the most.
Lilith's "egg" getting moved over billions of years to Japan is more interesting than the fact that it initially landed near Adam's hangout?

(BTW, how many people here actually saves this stuff in a text file? I did.)
Just don't consult it once I put a revised translation on my poor, neglected site. :P

NAveryW

June 30th, 2006, 07:11 PM

The White Moon is at the South Pole; I think you mean the Black?

WhaaaaIthoughtthewhitemoonwasinspaceI'ml ookingatitrightnowoutmywindow...

HeWhoPostsStuff

June 30th, 2006, 08:09 PM

would a rocky body being thrown back into space after crashing into a planet count as "rebound"?
I'm no physicist, but offhand I don't recall big hunks of rock being notable for their rubber-like properties...how the heck would it have "rebounded" back into space anyways? What force would have pushed it back out?

I picture the thing landing with a cosmic "BYOOOIIINNNNGGG!!" and zooming back up into the atmosphere...heck, maybe it looked like a gigantic version of one of those super-bouncy mini-balls with the weird stripey stuff and glitter inside of them. :P

Ornette

June 30th, 2006, 09:03 PM

I'm no physicist, but offhand I don't recall big hunks of rock being notable for their rubber-like properties...how the heck would it have "rebounded" back into space anyways? What force would have pushed it back out?

I picture the thing landing with a cosmic "BYOOOIIINNNNGGG!!" and zooming back up into the atmosphere...heck, maybe it looked like a gigantic version of one of those super-bouncy mini-balls with the weird stripey stuff and glitter inside of them. :P

Maybe it "glanced" the earth instead of crashing at a trajectory perpendicular to the plane of the Earth's surface. Something like richochet?

Jabberwok

June 30th, 2006, 09:38 PM

I watched a very interesting show several weeks ago talking about the moon and how it was formed and stuff.

Apparently, the only way they can get a satellite like ours into an orbit like ours in computer models is with a Mars-sized impactor striking the Earth off center. The impact throws large amounts of the upper crust into orbit which then coalesces into a planetoid.

I'll see if I can dig up some links to animations later. Some of the models looked pretty cool.

Found a couple meh links.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tothemoon/origins2.html - It has an animation, though it's a few megs. The bandwidth disinclined can still get a decent article.
http://www.psi.edu/projects/moon/moon.html - So-so. Pretty paintings.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/moon_making_010815-1.html - Decent article and the pics are nice.

Reichu

July 1st, 2006, 07:17 AM

Maybe it "glanced" the earth instead of crashing at a trajectory perpendicular to the plane of the Earth's surface. Something like richochet?
Hmm...

ricochet

n : a glancing rebound [syn: carom] v : spring back; spring away from an impact; "The rubber ball bounced"; "These particles do not resile but they unite after they collide" [syn: bounce, resile, take a hop, spring, bound, rebound, recoil, reverberate]

Using "ricochet" sounds like it would be a bit more "fluent", now that you mention it.

Apparently, the only way they can get a satellite like ours into an orbit like ours in computer models is with a Mars-sized impactor striking the Earth off center. The impact throws large amounts of the upper crust into orbit which then coalesces into a planetoid.
That doesn't seem to be what's going on here... Big impactor striking the Earth, then it's the impactor itself (or its trashed ruins) that becomes the satellite, rather than material from the Earth, even though the same name as the model you've linked to is employed (Giant Impact). Or maybe I'm missing something. I'm not very well-versed in this stuff.

Random: Reading just that first article, I'm sort of reminded why trying to explain NGE appeals to my "scientific sensibilities". :lol:

Now, to begin Phase 2... My my my, isn't this going to be fun?

Jabberwok

July 1st, 2006, 08:32 AM

That doesn't seem to be what's going on here..
My mention of crustal flinging was unnecessary and a little distracting, it seems.

Part of the Giant Impact model, in explaining the Moon's lack of a large iron-rich core, tells of the heavier elements present in the impactor primarily sinking into the Earth with the lighter ones (and chunks of the outer Earth) being ejected into orbit were they now roam. I'm sure just as much, if not more, of the impactor planetoid's material make up our Moon, but I think the specifics are no more than trivial details.
[Edit for quote from first article. They said it better than I.]
According to theoretical models, the impact would have destroyed the impactor, sending most of its remains, along with huge amounts of the Earth's mantle, into an Earth-orbiting debris cloud that ultimately coalesced into the moon. This would explain the reduced density of the moon, which is believed to be composed of two-thirds impactor and one-third Earth mantle. And it explains its tiny core: Since the models suggest that all of the impactor's core wound up in the Earth's core, the moon must have got its core iron from later, smaller impacts.

I guess my whole point was to show of another instance where Real-World Science made its way into NGE and maybe to provide some animations to those who were having difficulty visualizing this primordial rendezvous. I may have failed with the later, but with a skosh of Anime-Physics(TM) the whole thing seems pretty cut and dry.

HeWhoPostsStuff

July 2nd, 2006, 08:56 AM

Maybe it "glanced" the earth instead of crashing at a trajectory perpendicular to the plane of the Earth's surface. Something like richochet?
That's probably about the best explanation one could think of for this, but for me at least it's still a tad difficult to visualize...

IIRC, wasn't the "real-life" prevailing scientific theory about the moon's formation along the lines of the Earth and moon originally being one body, but were eventually separated when something smacked into it? Before this info came out, I think that was theorized to be NGE's "explanation" for First Impact, unless I remember wrong...

Mr. Tines

July 2nd, 2006, 10:54 AM

The Giant Impactor "Big Smash" was mentioned in the schoolbook text that described the cover story for 2I; though the Big Smash has always been a splash (of shared surface layers), rather than a bounce.

Reichu

July 2nd, 2006, 12:12 PM

Ornette

July 2nd, 2006, 02:02 PM

I keep on ponderin' ponderin' ponderin'... And I still can't begin to find a way to reconcile the series and a surface-level reading (i.e., taking everything at "face value") of that Spear C.I. entry. What's going on, eh? I wonder if reading the Japanese as carrying the nuance that "a Seed of Life is put into suspended animation by Spear so that she can't reach god-status" (and insert seeming intimations that Adam was doing something against the FAR's goals that made her own Spear do this by itself?!? buh) is really correct. It seems like it might be more like "the reason being that she doesn't reach god-status" (or, like I've said, isn't cut out to be a god, so to speak).
I think the key to understanding here is to figure out what they mean by "security device" and "god-status". This may also lead to a clearer understanding of the other times "god-status" is used in the CI.
Uhhh... What was I talking about again? Right. Two forms of life. One being excluded. With the Lilim and Apostles, this was in the form of what the CI calls a "contest of survival". (Talk about euphemisms.) Adam was excluded. Adam was also impaled on a Spear of Longinus, and this is what put her into "suspended animation" for so long. A Seed of Life, or SeedS of Life, went against the FAR's plans. What could this feasibly mean? I would imagine, the fact that two of them landed on the same planet, and thus, for anything to be accomplished at all, one of their messengers must go sleepies.
I think it could also mean something else. It's clear that the FAR's plans don't include having 2 seeds land on the same planet. But what exactly ARE the FAR's plans?

Does the idea that a Spear of Longinus (especially Adam's own!) just took out Adam by itself once Lilith landed really work?

The fact that people just jumped the gun on this one has bugged me from Day 1. We should at least consider the possibility that the CI is cloaking the truth of the matter -- for some reason, Mr. Tines' "Gypsy Switch" has come to mind -- namely, some stuff that we already knew. It's sort of obvious that it is barely touching what we are shown in the show, so we're not really going to figure out what's going out without weighing out everything...
This bit is all really confusing (both in the CI and in light of the spear section, in EoE). In Ep 22, they say the spear is in a lunar orbit. (from ep23') (http://buzzy.tesuji.org/images/ep23_lance.png) But in EoE, the spear that shoots to Yui was clearly embedded into the moon (http://buzzy.tesuji.org/images/eoe_spear.png). (This may also be a non-issue, but those two spears look a *little* different). The spear embedded in the moon could very well be the "thought-to-be-lost" spear of Lilith, and Keel says that the original spear has returned to us. But why would the one found with Adam, that presumably was fetched post 2I on an aircraft carrier and then stuck into Lilith also be called the "Spear of Longinus"? Is that just what Seele calls any "security-device" spear that comes as a set with each SoL?

Anyways, back to the "god-status" and "security device" bit. I had rockthing look over quickly the translation and the original japanese on the spear section while he was here. He says that the translation looks about as right as it could but admits it makes no sense to him. He also told me he got Hiromi to look over this section and she was *****ing about how it was written, that it was "purposely written this way so it wouldn't make sense". I specifically asked about these 2 phrases and there seems to be no cultural meaning or hidden context to either "god-status" or "security device". So... we're on our own.

Assuming that "security device" is to keep a SoL in check, it seems to make sense that the spear that kept Adam in check was her own. (Although in my previous paragraph's assumption that Adam's spear was stuck into Lilith, it would seem that a spear can keep any SoL suspended). Also, the CI entry seems to say Lilith's spear was out of the picture. It doesn't make sense to me to use such a "security device" to do battle with in the event of 2 seeds landing on the same planet, nor does it make sense for the security device to just randomly take out it's SoL (how would they know? does the spears know which SoL was supposed to be where?).

On "god-status": Keel mentions "'God' is not that lofty of an issue" at the beginning of ep21', saying that scientists will never understand what they discover. Ritsuko also mentions that "Humans found a god, and thus tried to obtain it." in ep23, refering to Adam. They also refer to Eva-01 as a "god" when obtained an S2:
Seele04: Evangelion Unit One.
Seele03: The living God created by us.

And later in EoE Fuyutsuki says something similar, "Having obtained them both, EVA-01 has become like a God."

So, does this mean something similar had happened to Adam WAY BEFORE the pre-2I meddlings of Dr. Katsuragi? Did Adam do something during the duel against Lilith that broke the FAR's rules of becoming "god-status" similar to how Eva-01 did (perhaps why [Lilith's?] spear came to Eva-01 in EoE). What exactly that is, I don't know, maybe trying to take in the FoK?

Blader5489

July 2nd, 2006, 02:08 PM

Does the idea that a Spear of Longinus (especially Adam's own!) just took out Adam by itself once Lilith landed really work?

I have tried to answer your question twice. Both times I've written up a lengthy post to give an answer (think Ritusko and her mad rant in 23'), and both times IE has crashed on me when I hit "submit." I'm writing this in Wordpad, and this time just writing up a short summary/list (I'll try to recreate the whole post if you want), so hopefully third time's the charm...

Disclaimer: I'll be using terms like "Angel" and "Lance of Longinus" when referring to "Apostle" and "Spear of Longinus." The reason being that I was exposed to NGE through the dub and old habits die hard. :P

Here's my theory in a nutshell:

1) Lillith crashes onto Earth in First Impact; the Lance of Longinus paired with her is incapacitated.

2) The FAR's plans for populating planets with life never included two SoL's being on the same planet.

3) Each Lance of Longinus was designed to fix any problems that may occur when the FAR's plans are put into execution; two SoL's existing on the same planet at the same time would be such a problem.

4) The obvious solution would be to put Lillith into suspended animation because she landed on the wrong planet. However, her lance is no longer in a state where it can function like that.

5) Since one SoL has to be put to sleep, and it can't be Lillith, the only option left is Adam (speculation: each lance is only designed to work with the SoL it's paired with). Adam's lance activates, puts Adam to sleep, and then humans populate the Earth.

6) The Angels feel cheated (they're the "true successors" and humans are the "false successors") and get their chance for revenge when Second Impact releases them from the White Moon.

7) The Angels exact their revenge by either trying to merge with Adam, merge with Lillith (this would be the ideal form of revenge for the Angels), or cause as much destruction as possible.

Would this work?

CanonRAP

July 2nd, 2006, 02:47 PM

I like the theory, but now all the Angels sound like bad people :(

Blader5489

July 2nd, 2006, 03:38 PM

I like the theory, but now all the Angels sound like bad people :(

Not bad, just angry. Holding a grudge against Mankind for stealing their planet makes them more human.*

*A connection I just came up with now, but it works right? :naughty:

Jabberwok

July 2nd, 2006, 05:32 PM

I came up with two theories on how to reconcile this issue.

(1) In short: Deus Ex Machina.

In longer: With Lilith's Spear MIA/KIA/AWOL, Adam's Spear is presented with a dilema after First Impact. Two Seeds, One planet. Solution: Disable one of the Seeds. The closest Seed: Adam. Result: Lilith lucked out and the bad guys win.

Simple? Yes. Elegant? No. But it works.

(2) This one is less straightforward and requires a bit of inference.

One of the Spear's functions is to prevent a Seed from going against the FAR's plan. Part of the FAR's plan requires only one Seed per planet. Both Seeds should know this and it could be assumed that they would fight for the right to propigate this world.

But would they both? What we know of the Seed's original personalities can only be inferred form their respective avatars. Lilith, in the form of Rei, appears to be the type to follow guidlines given to her, namely the FAR's wishes. But Adam, in the form of Kaworu, seems more likely to consider other posibilities, perhaps one of cohabitation.

The Spear senses this radical thinking and reacts in an instant, disabling Adam.

I tend to like the second theory better because it further portrays the Angels and the good guys and the Lilim as the bad. Indeed, it could make one sympathize with Kaworu even more seeing as he was eliminated not once, but twice, so that the Lilim could survive.

Magami No ER

July 2nd, 2006, 06:16 PM

I like both of those myself.
However;

Lilith, in the form of Rei, appears to be the type to follow guidelines given to her, namely the Farr’s wishes.

Rei's usual "blank" personality as Lilith's avatar seems to be more a result of her being replaced, with only certain "memories" bang preserved and downloaded into her psyche.
You may recall her behavior as Rei I was more attuned to Kaworu's free thinking(as she was probably as close to Lilith as she could be, in that new body). She took delight in breaking down Naoko by using Gendo's taunting,(she actually brings to mind the EMK and his, the way that 'ol manga Kaworu operates and all..)
which to me, makes it seem like at this stage, she was doing more then following an order. But, we don't actually know if Gendo ordered her to ruffle the Doctor's feathers, I personally am not so sure about that

Do we even know if Rei II at any point cared that much for Gendo at any point before Gendo came to her rescued her? That event really left great impressions on her...I imagine beforehand that she was truly, in the full sense, blank. Her obedience to Gendo before was merely because she knew nothing else, as was the case with Shinji, imo, but now(after the incident) perhaps, she delighted in it serving her savior...at least noted in episode 05.
It's only when another point of influence on the part of the younger Ikari, Shinji(that first Aremesial alerted her to), that caused Rei to follow her truest heart. And that's where Rei III decides for herself. I'm not sure how much of Lilith's will was left in her, if any. Rei was probably trying to find herself when she decided to grant Shinji's wish, influenced by, this time, Kaworu(since she doesn't remember the events of '23) So, this may just show how the Sol's may have been slightly different, just like all of we humans, they may have had the same tendencies So, I wouldn't consider Lilith and her lilum the "bad guys" or "terrible invaders, in that part of your theory, but just very much attuned to her life preservation.

With regards to cohabitation possibilities that Adam might've considered, I'm personally not sure if such an idea could come from Adam herself, but more from in PoV during Kaworu's experiences as Seele's trump. Shinji might've impacted him more then we think, as Reichu said, he showed his material side to him that derived from Adam. It's like a reverse role in the way Rei was affected by both Shinji and Gendo, as it was her being saved and her receiving "revelations about herself. It seems only with actual contact that angels/Sols ever thought about the possibility of humans being able to live with. But even Kaworu said in the end, "Only one life form will inherit the future. And you are not the life form that should die.”. or something of that sort.
Personally, it always irked me a bit why Mistato in EoE wasn't more clear as to why the two life forms couldn't be, I mean, I have plenty of my own possibilities, but hearing the shows logic obviously would've been preferred.

Reichu

July 2nd, 2006, 07:39 PM

I think the key to understanding here is to figure out what they mean by "security device" and "god-status". This may also lead to a clearer understanding of the other times "god-status" is used in the CI.
"God-status" is just another rendition of kami. I scribbled down whatever I could find about the term for "security device" back in my notes.

This bit is all really confusing (both in the CI and in light of the spear section, in EoE). In Ep 22, they say the spear is in a lunar orbit. (from ep23') But in EoE, the spear that shoots to Yui was clearly embedded into the moon. (This may also be a non-issue, but those two spears look a *little* different).
If you're worried, check out what the Spear looks like at the end of #14, then be worried no more. :P

The spear embedded in the moon could very well be the "thought-to-be-lost" spear of Lilith, and Keel says that the original spear has returned to us.
Original, as opposed to Copy. That the one stuck in the Moon is the same one that Gendo got rid of to disrupt the geezers' plans, as confirmed at the beginning of #25', seems pretty unambiguous.

But why would the one found with Adam, that presumably was fetched post 2I on an aircraft carrier and then stuck into Lilith also be called the "Spear of Longinus"? Is that just what Seele calls any "security-device" spear that comes as a set with each SoL?
Sure. Why not?

On "god-status": Keel mentions "'God' is not that lofty of an issue" at the beginning of ep21', saying that scientists will never understand what they discover.
He doesn't say anything about "god"; that's another bochan-botch. This is actually the line where Keel seems to be *****-slapping not just scientists in general, but his most important disposable brain of all. Use this page, use this page!!! (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-21/episode-21A-scene1.html) The actual script and four different translations were referenced for this thing!

They also refer to Eva-01 as a "god" when obtained an S2:
Seele04: Evangelion Unit One.
Seele03: The living God created by us.
Who got that translation...?

Why aren't you using Platinum, anyhow? I posted those for a reason. :P

So, does this mean something similar had happened to Adam WAY BEFORE the pre-2I meddlings of Dr. Katsuragi? Did Adam do something during the duel against Lilith that broke the FAR's rules of becoming "god-status" similar to how Eva-01 did (perhaps why [Lilith's?] spear came to Eva-01 in EoE). What exactly that is, I don't know, maybe trying to take in the FoK?
The lame thing about this "god" stuff is that "god" is not necessarily "FoK" + "FoL". For example, the CI says that Evas have the bodies (meat sacks) of gods, which is defining "god" in a way completely independent from spiritual elements. And there are all of those discrepancies. Ritsuko says that people found a kami-sama (Adam), but the CI says that Adam is just the closest imaginable thing to kami. And the Evas are "near to kami", and the Spear is "near to kami", and there was another "kami" thing in that ATF entry, and Adam's children are called kamigami in the FULL OP, and Fuyutsuki called the first Eva-thing he saw "kami no prototype", and Gendo is said to be seeking power equivalent to kami, and from the viewpoint of "humans and Angels" the FAR are kami, and it goes on and on. There really doesn't seem to be any concrete definition of what the hell kami is. But if you find one that encompasses every occurrence in a consistent manner, let me know...

Here are some lovely questions for you.

Why was a/the (?) Spear of Longinus shipped to the UN Base from the Dead Sea region? Why did it require "preparation" before being taken underground?

What's all that talk here (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-21/episode-21A-scene1.html#cut308) about?

Why did the Katsuragi Team's attempt to "reseal" Adam fail?

WTF is the Tree of the Life (= "embryo of lives / a life")? What does it have to do with anything?

Why was "the Spear we know" only recovered from the site of 2I fifteen years after the fact? (Things as absolutely miniscule as the two eggs and a freakin' SOUL were recovered straightaway...)

What exactly is the deal with the Spear supposedly "restraining" Lilith (as if she needed restraining), or that really weird thing in (D) of the Spear entry?

Why does the Spear roar like an Eva when it's thrown by Zero?

What's the deal with the Heavy Spears?

Why does Seele need the original for their plan? Fuyutsuki seems to react badly to its reappearance, too. Why would Yui do stuff that would make it return if this really was a Very Bad Thing? (She's the all-knowing one, after all.)

As mentioned many times... If the Spear we know is really supposed to be Adam's, why do its "copies" explode into Tang-colored blobs with little lower bodies sticking out of them? That's not just one visual association with Lilith, but TWO.

Where exactly is Yui pulling the Spear from at the end of EoE, what exactly does she do to it, and why? (And why would she take a "security device" with her?)

I guess that's enough for now.

Blader5489

July 2nd, 2006, 08:23 PM

The lame thing about this "god" stuff is that "god" is not necessarily "FoK" + "FoL". For example, the CI says that Evas have the bodies (meat sacks) of gods, which is defining "god" in a way completely independent from spiritual elements. And there are all of those discrepancies. Ritsuko says that people found a kami-sama (Adam), but the CI says that Adam is just the closest imaginable thing to kami. And the Evas are "near to kami", and the Spear is "near to kami", and there was another "kami" thing in that ATF entry, and Adam's children are called kamigami in the FULL OP, and Fuyutsuki called the first Eva-thing he saw "kami no prototype", and Gendo is said to be seeking power equivalent to kami, and from the viewpoint of "humans and Angels" the FAR are kami, and it goes on and on. There really doesn't seem to be any concrete definition of what the hell kami is. But if you find one that encompasses every occurrence in a consistent manner, let me know...

Unless I'm horribly incorrect, Japanese culture labels beings as "gods" pretty liberally. Essentially, any kind of being that is above human potential is dubbed a god. From my own experience, I've found it to be similar to the Greek gods, who are beings that are greater than any human but not on the same omni-level as the Judeo-Christian God.

Basically in Eva speak, "god" = being with Fruit of Life.

- What exactly is the deal with the Spear supposedly "restraining" Lilith (as if she needed restraining), or that really weird thing in (D) of the Spear entry?

For some reason, Lillith can only be allowed to regenerate her body to a certain point before the final Angel is destroyed and the day for 3I comes. The spear is the only thing capable of doing this, and since it's Adam's, my guess is that it only keeps Lillith in check and doesn't put her to sleep.

- WTF is the Tree of the Life (= "embryo of lives / a life")? What does it have to do with anything?

In Judean-Christian theology, the Tree of Life connects the Earth to Heaven. As the final step of uniting Man with God, SEELE needs to amalgamate the Tree of Life into the nearly-complete Adam Kadmon. It fulfills the two purposes of the Human Instrumentality Project: returning everything to it's original state and uniting everything into one (and with God).

As for the "embryo of souls," I believe that just means all souls are born from the Tree of Life. In the case of humanity, those souls are then mixed with Lillith's blood to create humans.

What I don't understand is how SEELE factored the ToL into their Plan B scenario. The real lance was stuck in the moon, the fake lances could only be used to crucify Evas, and Yui was already being used as Lillith's replacement in 3I. How does the ToL come into play here? Did SEELE just make up a Plan C on the spot when Yui summoned the lance back from space, and when Lillith did appear (thanks to Gendo's failed plan)?

- Why was a Spear of Longinus shipped to the UN Base from the Dead Sea region and required "preparation" before being taken underground?

Personally, I think it could be one of two things: sabotage (as in SEELE was modifying the Lance to artificially cause Adam's S^2 organ to go out of control, thus causing Second Impact) or preparing the Lance so that SEELE can use Adam to open the Path to Divinity (but failed, and caused Second Impact as a result).

- What's all that talk here (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-21/episode-21A-scene1.html#cut308) about?

The S^2 organ converts matter into energy 100% without a leak, right? Maybe Adam's S^2 organ going out of control transformed her into a walking bomb. The Katsuragi team wanted to stop this, so they generated an anti-AT field around her in order to stop this.

- Why did the Katsuragi Team's attempt to "reseal" Adam fail?

If they were sticking the Spear/Lance back into Adam to put her back to sleep, then this goes back my two ideas above: either SEELE deliberately altered the spear to cause Second Impact, or SEELE was trying to open the Path to Divinity by crucifying Adam but failed (and 2I occured as a result of this failure).

- Why does Seele need the original for their plan? Fuyutsuki seems to react badly to its reappearance, too. Why would Yui do stuff that would make it return if this was a Very Bad Thing? (She's the all-knowing one, after all.)

I guess that's enough for now.

For some reason, SEELE needs the real Lance of Longinus in order to use Lillith in 3I. I don't know why, but if the Lance was used early, SEELE would be unable to use Lillith and forced into using Yui (which they don't want, because a soul inside an Eva could hijack SEELE's scenario and change the outcome of 3I, as we see in EoE).

Reichu

July 2nd, 2006, 08:49 PM

Unless I'm horribly incorrect, Japanese culture labels beings as "gods" pretty liberally. Essentially, any kind of being that is above human potential is dubbed a god. From my own experience, I've found it to be similar to the Greek gods, who are beings that are greater than any human but not on the same omni-level as the Judeo-Christian God.
Considering the context, which is THICK with the Judaeo-Christian references, why would we be talking about Japanese kami here? (Kami e no michi is, for example, a reference to a Christian concept.)

Basically in Eva speak, "god" = being with Fruit of Life.
I provided a number of examples where that's not the case.

For some reason, Lillith can only be allowed to regenerate her body to a certain point before the final Angel is destroyed and the day for 3I comes. The spear is the only thing capable of doing this, and since it's Adam's, my guess is that it only keeps Lillith in check and doesn't put her to sleep.
I'm not quite following.

In Judean-Christian theology, the Tree of Life connects the Earth to Heaven.
Interestingly, the ToL of 2I is flipped. (Roots towards Earth, branches towards Heaven.)

As for the "embryo of souls," I believe that just means all souls are born from the Tree of Life. In the case of humanity, those souls are then mixed with Lillith's blood to create humans.
It's not "embryo of souls" (which would be tamashii no taiga) -- it's "embryo of lives" (inochi no taiga). I just want to make that clear.

How can souls be born from the ToL is they come from the Chamber of Guf...? (And if the ToL's existence has only been verified for the "counterpart phenomena" of 2I and 3I.)

Personally, I think it could be one of two things: sabotage (as in SEELE was modifying the Lance to artificially cause Adam's S^2 organ to go out of control, thus causing Second Impact) or preparing the Lance so that SEELE can use Adam to open the Path to Divinity (but failed, and caused Second Impact as a result).
The former seems to be well ruled out from what Seele have said amongst themselves.

The S^2 organ converts matter into energy 100% without a leak, right? Maybe Adam's S^2 organ going out of control transformed her into a walking bomb.
Yeah, that links up quite logically with the Giant of Light and Huge Explosion parts of the equation. (I think I already went into that stuff earlier.)

The Katsuragi team wanted to stop this, so they generated an anti-AT field around her in order to stop this.
I hate that line so much. So much, in fact, I'm finally going to ask AL about it and the complete discrepancy between bochan and Platinum's takes. :issues blood-curdling battle cry:

If they were sticking the Spear/Lance back into Adam to put her back to sleep, then this goes back my two ideas above: either SEELE deliberately altered the spear to cause Second Impact, or SEELE was trying to open the Path to Divinity by crucifying Adam but failed (and 2I occured as a result of this failure).
Why would the Spear be coming from the Dead Sea? The idea that it was transported there from the South Pole then transported back always seemed pretty inexplicable to me.

And where did the ToL come from? Also, one would think it'd need to have more in common with its 2nd incarnation than just the god-stick, right...?

For some reason, SEELE needs the real Lance of Longinus in order to use Lillith in 3I. I don't know why (yet), but if the Lance was used early, SEELE would be unable to use Lillith and forced into using Yui (which they don't want, because a soul inside an Eva could hijack SEELE's scenario and change the outcome of 3I, as we see in EoE).
And they weren't worried about Lilith herself doing anything? (Since, for all THEY know...)

Where do Yui's actions and Fuyutsuki's reaction fit into all that?

(I'm not picking on you. I'm just squeezing you. ;) )

felineki

July 2nd, 2006, 08:56 PM

What's the deal with the Heavy Spears?Well, we know the original lance is capable of transforming from dual-pointed to single-pointed, and then that weird spirally thing it does in the NPC version of 22... maybe it's not out of the question that it is capable of taking other forms as well, it's just that we only saw the copies actually do it in-show? Oddly enough, the Spear's ability to penetrate AT-Fields seems to be reliant upon assuming specific forms... It only punches through Arael's field after doing the spirally thing, and only gets through Kyoko's after changing from "Heavy" to "Normal" mode.

Reichu

July 2nd, 2006, 09:02 PM

The Heavy Spears are extremely bizarre and inexplicable, though, because they TOTALLY break away from the Spear's 'native morphology'. All of the other variations we see are just that -- variations. Why would the harpies be sent in with their copies in full masquerade as giant, unwieldy sword-things?

Shin-seiki

July 3rd, 2006, 02:22 AM

Why would the harpies be sent in with their copies in full masquerade as giant, unwieldy sword-things?So that team-Soryu could get their hands on one and proceed to make mincemeat out their opponents, I suppose. I know it's somewhat bad form to resort too easily to "because it looks cool" type explanations, but really, the battle in Air is the action climax of the whole series; I think Anno-tachi thought it would be cool to have a bunch of giants getting medieval on each other's *** with big clunky sword-thingies.

Vaikyuko

July 3rd, 2006, 03:53 AM

To be quite blunt, I wouldn't be here discussing EVA if that scene wasn't in the show. Unlike a lot of people, if there are even pretenses of mecha, I need gigantic, deliciously bloody/oily/explody fight scenes.

kaos

July 3rd, 2006, 07:43 AM

Blader, you pretty much read my mind with your theory.

5) Since one SoL has to be put to sleep, and it can't be Lillith, the only option left is Adam (speculation: each lance is only designed to work with the SoL it's paired with). Adam's lance activates, puts Adam to sleep, and then humans populate the Earth.The only question with this one is that the spear was being used on Lilith to stunt her growth, so it must be interchangable to some degree...unless that's Lilith's spear. (Maybe it is Lilith's and Adam's spear was destroyed at 2I.)

As mentioned many times... If the Spear we know is really supposed to be Adam's, why do its "copies" explode into Tang-colored blobs with little lower bodies sticking out of them? That's not just one visual association with Lilith, but TWO.
...
The Heavy Spears are extremely bizarre and inexplicable, though, because they TOTALLY break away from the Spear's 'native morphology'. All of the other variations we see are just that -- variations. Why would the harpies be sent in with their copies in full masquerade as giant, unwieldy sword-things?Why do those legs have to be associated with Lilith? Very possibly they are Kaworu legs. Maybe it's the Kaworu-dummy-system that's running the spears. After all, somebody has to be making them do what they do, expecially while the harpies are incapacitated.

Reichu

July 3rd, 2006, 07:59 AM

Why do those legs have to be associated with Lilith?
Was there ever a point at which the motif wasn't? Also, in the first cut with the exploding Spears, the script refers to the 'legs' as "Lilith-mitai na ningen no shimohanshin" (the lower bodies of humans, a la Lilith).

kaos

July 3rd, 2006, 10:21 AM

Was there ever a point at which the motif wasn't? Also, in the first cut with the exploding Spears, the script refers to the 'legs' as "Lilith-mitai na ningen no shimohanshin" (the lower bodies of humans, a la Lilith).Ah, that's a nice little piece of info. Still though, I don't think the visual alone is enough to conclude that the Spear is necessarily Lilith's. All it means, if anything, is that -- as with the other clones in the series -- the Cloned spears were grown using Lilith's body. In other words, spear material was inserted (or whatever) into Lilith and the clones were grown from that (speculation: maybe that's why the spear was sent over to the Dead Sea?). That explains a lot more about how the legs actually got there anyway. But the original spear doesn't have to necessarily be Lilith's. I mean, the Evas were created by inserting Adam material into Lilith, so if you can insert Adam material, why can't you insert Adam Spear material.

I say this especially since the "Spear acts on its own" theory does explain a lot, and makes total sense given the CI. It explains a lot more than any other theory, and doesn't leave anymore unexplain than any other theory. (Does that make sense?)

[Edit: Added a bunch of stuff because I can never get these things right the first time (if ever).]

Blader5489

July 3rd, 2006, 11:40 AM

Considering the context, which is THICK with the Judaeo-Christian references, why would we be talking about Japanese kami here? (Kami e no michi is, for example, a reference to a Christian concept.)

I don't mean to imply that they're talking about Japanese gods, but rather the Japanese outlook on what a god is (essentially, a being that is greater than a human).

I provided a number of examples where that's not the case.

Alright, I'll go through each of them.

For example, the CI says that Evas have the bodies (meat sacks) of gods, which is defining "god" in a way completely independent from spiritual elements.

Eva being the "body of a god" is, IMO, a reference to Evas being clones of Adam. The only reason Evas are just bodies of gods, and not gods themselves, is because they lack S^2 organs and souls.

Ritsuko says that people found a kami-sama (Adam), but the CI says that Adam is just the closest imaginable thing to kami.

Right, Adam has an S^2 organ. Having the Fruit of Life makes her more than a god than humans are, and hence Adam can be considered the closest thing to a god (or just "a god" for short, I suppose).

And the Evas are "near to kami", and the Spear is "near to kami", and there was another "kami" thing in that ATF entry

Evs are "near to kami" because they're bodies are god-like, but they lack the souls and unlimited energy that a god would possess. I'll have to get back to you on the other two examples here. ;)

and Adam's children are called kamigami in the FULL OP, and Fuyutsuki called the first Eva-thing he saw "kami no prototype", and Gendo is said to be seeking power equivalent to kami, and from the viewpoint of "humans and Angels" the FAR are kami, and it goes on and on.

The Angels have S^2 organs, so that explain their designation as "kamigami." Fuyutsuki called EVA-00 a "kami no prototype" because it was the prototype Eva, and as I wrote above, Evas are kind of 'incomplete gods.' Gendo seekiing power equivalent to kami could be a reference to his merging with Adam, merging with Adam and Lillith, or both instances.

I'm not quite following.

Neither am I, really. -_-;

I don't really understand why Lillith's growth needs to be brought to a certain point before she can be used in 3I, and I don't understand what that certain point is for. It would be a lot easier if there was some sort of explanation as to how SEELE intended on using Lillith in their scenario.

The only thing that I can make sense of that line in 25' (something along the lines of "Without the spear, we can no longer use Lillith in complementation) is that the spear was somehow keeping Lillith in check and/or under SEELE's control. With the spear up in space, Lillith can't be restrained (or whatever) and therefore is useless as far as SEELE's scenario goes.

I guess.

Interestingly, the ToL of 2I is flipped. (Roots towards Earth, branches towards Heaven.)

The ToL was a part of 2I?

It's not "embryo of souls" (which would be tamashii no taiga) -- it's "embryo of lives" (inochi no taiga). I just want to make that clear.

How can souls be born from the ToL is they come from the Chamber of Guf...? (And if the ToL's existence has only been verified for the "counterpart phenomena" of 2I and 3I.)

My mistake. I pulled up my subbed copy of EoE to watch that scene again, and the line reads "embryo of souls." Though it was kind of foolish of me to place so much stock in it, seeing as how my copy renders many lines in the movie unreadable.

In the case of "embryo of lives"... I have no idea. Personally, I still don't understand how SEELE could've accounted for the ToL in the first place. I'm also drawing a blank as to the ToL being present in 2I.

The former seems to be well ruled out from what Seele have said amongst themselves.

I'm not so sure. SEELE calls 2I a catastrophe, but they may only be referring to the after effects (environmental disasters, world wars, population halved, etc). I've always found Gendo and Keel leaving the day before 2I, coupled with Keel's disapproval (to say the least) of scientists in 21', to be evident of sabotage on SEELE's part. The CI even says that Adam's S^2 organ was thrown into overdrive by artificial means, and I have a hard time believing it was just an experiment gone awry.

Why would the Spear be coming from the Dead Sea? The idea that it was transported there from the South Pole then transported back always seemed pretty inexplicable to me.

Maybe SEELE discovered the secret scrolls (along with 'public' scrolls) right around then, and they had the spear shipped to them in order to reconcile it's existence and purpose with what was written in the scrolls.

And where did the ToL come from? Also, one would think it'd need to have more in common with its 2nd incarnation than just the god-stick, right...?

I must've really missed something, because I can't for the life of me remember the ToL in 2I. I'll get back to you after I start digging through... everything.

And they weren't worried about Lilith herself doing anything? (Since, for all THEY know...)

I agree, they do seem to be putting a little too much faith into Lillith (especially since they cut off her legs and nailed her to a cross - anyone who had to undergo that would be more than a littled pissed about it).

Where do Yui's actions and Fuyutsuki's reaction fit into all that?

Quite frankly, I don't even know what their plans were. Since Fuyutsuki says he's following Yui's plan, it can be concluded that anything he does is related to that plan. But I don't understand whose plan he's trying to hijack. He doesn't like Gendo going against SEELE to use the spear in 22', he doesn't like the idea of all souls returning to the Black Moon (which was both SEELE and Gendo's idea), and he puts all his faith into Shinji. Even Yui doesn't seem that devoted to this grand scheme (whatever it may be), as she lets everything return to normal when Shinji wills it.

I mean, surely their plan was more than just to build Eva as proof of humanity's existence, right?

The only question with this one is that the spear was being used on Lilith to stunt her growth, so it must be interchangable to some degree...unless that's Lilith's spear. (Maybe it is Lilith's and Adam's spear was destroyed at 2I.)

I agree, spears probably have a common trait of restraining an SoL to some extent. But an SoL can only be put into suspended animation by the spear it's paired with.

Does that work?

Shin-seiki

July 3rd, 2006, 11:53 AM

The ToL was a part of 2I?
http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5773765&highlight=Tree#post5773765

Dr. Nick

July 3rd, 2006, 12:27 PM

http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5773765&highlight=Tree#post5773765

OH SHI-

Damn hiatus.

Reichu

July 3rd, 2006, 01:08 PM

Evas are "near to kami" because they're bodies are god-like, but they lack the souls and unlimited energy that a god would possess. I'll have to get back to you on the other two examples here. ;)
And those little people from far, far away who are considered "gods" by even the gods. :uhh:

I don't really understand why Lillith's growth needs to be brought to a certain point before she can be used in 3I, and I don't understand what that certain point is for. It would be a lot easier if there was some sort of explanation as to how SEELE intended on using Lillith in their scenario.
Here are some extra things you can have fun with, too.

Lilith's body, when we got to see it 2003, 2004-ish, looks like it's in pretty bad shape (http://www.evacommentary.org/full-op/full-op_C237_comp.jpg). In 2015 (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/15_C281.jpg), it doesn't look much better, although, now, she's bleeding her life-stuff and has overripe Rei sprouts [??] sticking out of her. Lilith seems to have been doing little more than lying around for all that time -- and if you didn't have a soul, would you be doing a whole lot more? -- and any sort of "growth" that she accomplished after her "baby was taken away" is so absolutely negligible, the 'concerns' on Seele and Gendo's part intimated in the CI don't make any obvious sense.

Strangely, when the Spear is pulled out, Lilith regenerates INSTANTANEOUSLY. But worth noting are (A) the pregnant-looking belly, (B) the relocation of the 'Rei Sprouts' to her upper thighs (rather than their disappearance/reabsorption), and (C) the continued flow of LCL.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/22_C259C_belly.jpg

The LCL flow is not shown to have stopped until the cut in #25' when Gendo comments that EVA-01 has started to move. The sprouts vanish immediately after Lilith gets her soul back. The belly is most prominent in #24' and goes away when Lilith turns into a really scary Rei-thing.

I'm not so sure. SEELE calls 2I a catastrophe, but they may only be referring to the after effects (environmental disasters, world wars, population halved, etc). I've always found Gendo and Keel leaving the day before 2I, coupled with Keel's disapproval (to say the least) of scientists in 21', to be evident of sabotage on SEELE's part.
Keel's disapproval of scientists isn't a real problem, since they're just a means to an end, and continue to be after 2I. Sabotage still doesn't make any sense to me in the grand-scheme, and here (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5781818#post5781818) are some of the reasons.

The CI even says that Adam's S^2 organ was thrown into overdrive by artificial means, and I have a hard time believing it was just an experiment gone awry.
The "experiment" part may have just been a 'euphemism' for something else, even if most of the team didn't know what that something was. Being scientist scum disconnected from reality and all.

But, of course, not one word is actually mentioned about the CE with Adam in the CI -- guess we actually have to work with the show in this case. :ph34r: I get the feeling that Keel's favorite Ph.D. had a big hand in that mess. Or maybe just a left hand.

Maybe SEELE discovered the secret scrolls (along with 'public' scrolls) right around then, and they had the spear shipped to them in order to reconcile it's existence and purpose with what was written in the scrolls.
Wouldn't it be more practical to go to the Spear (and Keel is down there supervising anyway)? The DSS here seem like they're supposed to correlate with the ones in Real Life, as well; they just have alien goodies bundled up with them, for no obvious reason. (How did near-mint documents that had to have originated from one of the Moons get in the Dead Sea region, again?)

I agree, they do seem to be putting a little too much faith into Lillith (especially since they cut off her legs and nailed her to a cross - anyone who had to undergo that would be more than a littled pissed about it).
Her legs weren't cut off, by all indications; their biomass was sucked out by Lilith's pretty little baby.

Quite frankly, I don't even know what their plans were. Since Fuyutsuki says he's following Yui's plan, it can be concluded that anything he does is related to that plan. But I don't understand whose plan he's trying to hijack. He doesn't like Gendo going against SEELE to use the spear in 22'
I think that's because he's trying to play things safe and restrain Gendo's recklessness; break through Seele's absolute tolerance threshold too soon, and everything their little trio had been planning could get ruined.

he doesn't like the idea of all souls returning to the Black Moon (which was both SEELE and Gendo's idea)
When was that Gendo's idea?

and he puts all his faith into Shinji.
Is there a point when he explicitly says this?

Even Yui doesn't seem that devoted to this grand scheme (whatever it may be), as she lets everything return to normal when Shinji wills it.

I mean, surely their plan was more than just to build Eva as proof of humanity's existence, right?
Yeah, but you don't expect them to spell out everything for you, right? :P There's obviously more to it than that, and it probably starts with "s" and ends with "d".

Ornette

July 3rd, 2006, 01:12 PM

Original, as opposed to Copy. That the one stuck in the Moon is the same one that Gendo got rid of to disrupt the geezers' plans, as confirmed at the beginning of #25', seems pretty unambiguous.
that was pretty much me grasping at straws to elaborate more on the "gypsy switch"
He doesn't say anything about "god"; that's another bochan-botch. This is actually the line where Keel seems to be *****-slapping not just scientists in general, but his most important disposable brain of all. Use this page, use this page!!! (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-21/episode-21A-scene1.html) The actual script and four different translations were referenced for this thing!

Who got that translation...?

Why aren't you using Platinum, anyhow? I posted those for a reason. :P
old habit. I moved the plat transcripts to where the other scripts used to be so I don't accidentally go searching through the old ones again.

Why was a/the (?) Spear of Longinus shipped to the UN Base from the Dead Sea region? Why did it require "preparation" before being taken underground?
I'd assume it has something to do with the DNA inserting or the genes that dived into Adam. I thought that there was a thread or at least a few posts that discussed the possibility that it was a different spear that got shipped to the dead sea (amongst a ton of stuff about dead sea=antarctica), but I can't seem to find them, maybe I dreamt them up.

What exactly is the deal with the Spear supposedly "restraining" Lilith (as if she needed restraining), or that really weird thing in (D) of the Spear entry?
Whatever happened to Sharp's old theory (http://www.animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3362133&postcount=3)? I'm still not sure what to think about the last part of section C and section D. It almost seems that either they're blatantly going against what we see in the series and EoE (little legs from cloned spears splooshing) or that they're subtlely telling us something that I'm completely missing.

So that team-Soryu could get their hands on one and proceed to make mincemeat out their opponents, I suppose. I know it's somewhat bad form to resort too easily to "because it looks cool" type explanations, but really, the battle in Air is the action climax of the whole series; I think Anno-tachi thought it would be cool to have a bunch of giants getting medieval on each other's *** with big clunky sword-thingies.
That seems to be a good enough explaination to me. That big fight scene and the rise and fall of team sohryu wouldn't quite be the same if the harpies appeared with spears.

Reichu

July 3rd, 2006, 01:34 PM

I'd assume it has something to do with the DNA inserting or the genes that dived into Adam.
I would've thought those genes had more to do with the "donor"'s participation, and Kaworu's subsequent creation.

I thought that there was a thread or at least a few posts that discussed the possibility that it was a different spear that got shipped to the dead sea (amongst a ton of stuff about dead sea=antarctica), but I can't seem to find them, maybe I dreamt them up.
The stuff about a second spear was me earlier in this thread. The Dead Sea=Antarctica started up in OMF's Dead Sea thread (key word: "herrings" ;) ).

Whatever happened to Sharp's old theory (http://www.animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3362133&postcount=3)?
The Spear being Adam's S^2 Engine? -_-;

I'm still not sure what to think about the last part of section C and section D. It almost seems that either they're blatantly going against what we see in the series and EoE (little legs from cloned spears splooshing) or that they're subtlely telling us something that I'm completely missing.
That's pretty much what I've been saying. :P Which brings this up again:

I had rockthing look over quickly the translation and the original japanese on the spear section while he was here. He says that the translation looks about as right as it could but admits it makes no sense to him. He also told me he got Hiromi to look over this section and she was *****ing about how it was written, that it was "purposely written this way so it wouldn't make sense".

So forget about puzzles! Pull out your dominant hands, everybody! Fanwanking this crap into submission is the only option!!

Maybe I'm calling a premature defeat, but, I must admit, I am a totally cynical bastard right now. The inexplicable Spear 'tidbits' wouldn't be the only time that an 'extratextual' source says stuff that seems totally counterintuitive with what the series shows us, too. For a fun example: Anybody remember Eva Otaku and his "complemented Shinji" card?

Blader5489

July 3rd, 2006, 01:47 PM

http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5773765&highlight=Tree#post5773765

Thanks. That's certainly a cool bit of information, but definitely brings up more questions. Also, doesn't it look like there are multiple (albeit, small) Trees of Life in that shot?

And those little people from far, far away who are considered "gods" by even the gods. :uhh:

Since the FAR are made completely ambiguous, there's no way of knowing as to how they matched up to the SoL's, Angels, and Evas in terms of godliness. Nor will I even attempt to make sense of it.

And for the Lillith stuff... I really can't make sense of it. At least not without repeating the same old idea (basically the spear delays Lillith's growth), which isn't anything new.

Keel's disapproval of scientists isn't a real problem, since they're just a means to an end, and continue to be after 2I. Sabotage still doesn't make any sense to me in the grand-scheme, and here (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5781818#post5781818) are some of the reasons.

Thanks for the link. I like your theory better than the sabotage idea, partly because it ties into my own pet theory about what SEELE's plan for 3I is. ;)

Wouldn't it be more practical to go to the Spear (and Keel is down there supervising anyway)? The DSS here seem like they're supposed to correlate with the ones in Real Life, as well; they just have alien goodies bundled up with them, for no obvious reason. (How did near-mint documents that had to have originated from one of the Moons get in the Dead Sea region, again?)

Well, if the DSS are these ancient scrolls, they probably need to be excavated carefully (and not quickly). Rather than risk taking the scrolls to the spear (and more importantly, Adam), it might've proved less risky to simply bring the spear to the scrolls.

When was that Gendo's idea?

"Merge all souls into one, and take me to Yui's side" in 26'.

Although that doesn't really match up with Gendo's speech to SEELE, about how "death gives birth to nothing."

Is there a point when he explicitly says this?

I'm not happy with the way I wrote that, as the scene seems to imply that Fuyutsuki is, out of desperation (i.e. no options are left), placing his faith into Shinji as opposed to putting his faith into Shinji from the very beginning (which is what I may've implied with my earlier statement).

"Everything is in the hands of Ikari's son now" or something to that effect.

Reichu

July 3rd, 2006, 02:06 PM

Thanks. That's certainly a cool bit of information, but definitely brings up more questions.
"If Adam's down there, who's up there?"

Also, doesn't it look like there are multiple (albeit, small) Trees of Life in that shot?
???

"Merge all souls into one, and take me to Yui's side" in 26'.

Although that doesn't really match up with Gendo's speech to SEELE, about how "death gives birth to nothing."
Gendo says "into one", but no verb is attached (annoyingly). It seems implicit that he's just instructing Rei to gather all human souls up for "further processing", as per the 'design' we heard earlier, and this is so that everyone can be channeled into Eva (I would guess into her own Chamber of Guf, via Doors that form specifically for the purpose) for the long journey to ... somewhere else. Eva/Seed, human evolution, rebirth, being with Yui again in a meaningful way, blah blah blah.

That's been my looney hypothesis, anyway. :uhh:

Blader5489

July 3rd, 2006, 05:09 PM

"If Adam's down there, who's up there?"

To say the least.

???

Oh, nothing. I'm just an idiot. I thought each one of those roots was supposed to be a really tiny ToL, as opposed to being the collectives roots of a normal-sized tree.

But if those are the roots, and they're facing the ground, wouldn't it be the Tree of Knowledge?

Gendo says "into one", but no verb is attached (annoyingly).

He just says "Rei, all souls into one"? WTF?

It seems implicit that he's just instructing Rei to gather all human souls up for "further processing", as per the 'design' we heard earlier, and this is so that everyone can be channeled into Eva (I would guess into her own Chamber of Guf, via Doors that form specifically for the purpose) for the long journey to ... somewhere else. Eva/Seed, human evolution, rebirth, being with Yui again in a meaningful way, blah blah blah.

That's been my looney hypothesis, anyway. :uhh:

The confusion is endless.

I'm still remembering 25 and 26, in which Gendo explains to the text screens (the black screens that ask existential questions) that everybody needs to merge into being and complement each other because "there is no other way to exist." Which leads me to believe that Gendo's plan was the same as SEELE's, with the only difference being that Kaworu would be substituted by Gendo.

Or something like that.

Reichu

July 3rd, 2006, 05:40 PM

To say the least.
"Embryo of lives", among other things that aren't easily articulated, makes me wonder if it has something to do with the Apostles. (And that includes both occurences of the ToL.)

Oh, nothing. I'm just an idiot. I thought each one of those roots was supposed to be a really tiny ToL, as opposed to being the collectives roots of a normal-sized tree.
"Normal-sized tree". :P

But if those are the roots, and they're facing the ground, wouldn't it be the Tree of Knowledge?
Considering that the presence of this thing is linking up directly with Fuyutsuki's mysterioso tidbit from EoE, I wouldn't imagine so. Throwing "Trees of Knowledge" into the fray seems to be just introducing new elements; I'd just as soon say that it's an inversed version of the inversed tree. ;)

He just says "Rei, all souls into one"? WTF?
If I had any point at all, it was just that the verb is implied, but not specified.

The confusion is endless.
I dunno, I think that scenario makes sense to me.

I'm still remembering 25 and 26, in which Gendo explains to the text screens (the black screens that ask existential questions) that everybody needs to merge into being and complement each other because "there is no other way to exist." Which leads me to believe that Gendo's plan was the same as SEELE's, with the only difference being that Kaworu would be substituted by Gendo.
(Kaworu would be substituted by Gendo?)

I really can't see how it's possible that Gendo would share Seele's goals; it disassembles his character and flies in the face of... a lot of stuff, including the details provided about the differing scenarios. Also, consider, how exactly is he going to be with Yui again if he undergoes something where individuals cease to be? In the end, you have to weigh out the discrepancies, and perhaps consider that he's not talking about what you think he is. (For one thing, "human complementation/instrumentality" is, in part, just a fancy way of referring to "artificial human evolution", and there is more than one way of panning it out.)

Regarding the differences between Gendo and Seele, it might be worth comparing their "logos", too.

(Isn't forum tennis fun? ;) )

Magami No ER

July 3rd, 2006, 05:54 PM

For that last part, what are you refering to as Gendo's logo? Glasses? The embryo?

< A bit of a dumb question maybe, but this is one thing I don't care to ponder right now, as I agree with you in anycase, just by watching the show. It's obvious to me that Gendo's and Seele's be their goals are different overall.>

Reichu

July 3rd, 2006, 05:58 PM

Ah, sorry. I was thinking of things as Gendo=Nerv (which is pretty much how it ends up). So something like: Gendo/Nerv = "1/2 Fig Leaf" and Keel/Seele = "7 Eyes of God".

Magami No ER

July 3rd, 2006, 06:33 PM

Thanks. That's what I'd orginally thought myself , but then I my mind tended to seperate Gendo the person with his own agenda from Nerv for whatever reason....such a "complicated man".

Blader5489

July 7th, 2006, 04:12 PM

I dunno, I think that scenario makes sense to me.

It was more of a general statement. ;) But I think things are slowly making sense and coming together.

I'd hate to sound like a heretic, but I think we need to start rethinking how the manga can be used as a source of information. It's true that Sadamoto changes some things around, pertaining to character relationships and the plot, but he also does something that Anno almost refuses to do: he fleshes out the mythos of NGE.

Sadamoto explains what the Adam Project is, how the Lance of Longinus factored into Second Impact, and the nature behind Kaworu's birth (although some of these 'answers' are heavily, if not entirely, similar to fan conclusions based on several vague hints throughout the show).

To Anno, these things are unimportant. What's important for him to express in NGE are the characters and their relationships to each other (I believe that this was stated to be his reasoning behind the TV ending - that he purposely provided more questions than answers to the show's "mysteries" so as to put the spotlight on the characters). As such, I think it's important people realize that the manga functions similarly to the game, in that it provides answers to subjects that Anno won't elaborate on.

(Kaworu would be substituted by Gendo?)

Poor choice of words on my part. What I meant was that Gendo would take Kaworu's place as the Adam-half of GNR.

I'd also like to rescind my idea of Gendo having the same kind of 3I scenario as SEELE. New bits of information and different interpretations of such info (like Yui and Fuyutsuki's conversation by the lake) have opened my eyes to Gendo's plan being different from that of SEELE's.

Reichu

July 8th, 2006, 10:33 AM

Sadamoto explains what the Adam Project is, how the Lance of Longinus factored into Second Impact, and the nature behind Kaworu's birth (although some of these 'answers' are heavily, if not entirely, similar to fan conclusions based on several vague hints throughout the show).
He does? I see a little bit of "exposure" in Stage 72, but that's just restating what we already know. What am I missing?

To Anno, these things are unimportant.
If it didn't matter at all, the level of pedantic detail present in the show's wacky mythos would be even more mysterious than the show itself, I'd think. Seems more like providing definitive answers, at least to a specific set of items, is a rather cruelly intentional move. At the expense of any otaku who take the bait, of course.

Poor choice of words on my part. What I meant was that Gendo would take Kaworu's place as the Adam-half of GNR.
Unless he's interested in serving the same function that GNK does (during his brief physical manifestation), I'm not sure why you'd say this. Gendo can 'fuse' with Adam, at any rate, but he cannot BE Adam. He's just using Adam as a stepping-stone to reach EVA-01 according to his design. But my brain isn't working right now...

I'd also like to rescind my idea of Gendo having the same kind of 3I scenario as SEELE. New bits of information and different interpretations of such info (like Yui and Fuyutsuki's conversation by the lake) have opened my eyes to Gendo's plan being different from that of SEELE's.
"New bits"?

I don't mean to come across as dismissive, BTW. This is typical "WTF information oversaturation" mode for me. :P

Blader5489

July 8th, 2006, 05:49 PM

He does? I see a little bit of "exposure" in Stage 72, but that's just restating what we already know. What am I missing?

Well like I said, a lot of it is similar to fan theories. :P

But the Adam Project has finally been given a purpose, beyond the very few times it's referenced in the series, and Kaworu's birth has finally been cleared up (in typical Eva speak, with phrases like "It seems..." and "Perhaps it occurred...").

If it didn't matter at all, the level of pedantic detail present in the show's wacky mythos would be even more mysterious than the show itself, I'd think. Seems more like providing definitive answers, at least to a specific set of items, is a rather cruelly intentional move. At the expense of any otaku who take the bait, of course.

I'm not saying they didn't matter at all, but that they weren't high on Anno's list of priorities for NGE. The core of the series was always about "the heart of people," which was why he considered both the TV ending and EoE as satisfying conclusions to the series (even though they didn't do much to resolve the show's "mysteries," something that Anno even admitted was deliberate).

Unless he's interested in serving the same function that GNK does (during his brief physical manifestation), I'm not sure why you'd say this. Gendo can 'fuse' with Adam, at any rate, but he cannot BE Adam. He's just using Adam as a stepping-stone to reach EVA-01 according to his design. But my brain isn't working right now...

But wasn't his goal to create a divinity comprised of both Adam and Lilith that he could control (and therefore control Third Impact)? I thought the whole idea for placing Lilith's soul in Rei, and implanting Adam into his own hand, was so that Adam and Lilith would adopt their respective personas (i.e. Rei/Lilith acting subservient to Gendo/Adam). That way, when they merged, Gendo would have dominant control over GNR.

"New bits"?

Eh... new for me, most likely old for the rest of you guys. :P

Reichu

July 8th, 2006, 08:44 PM

Well like I said, a lot of it is similar to fan theories. :P

But the Adam Project has finally been given a purpose, beyond the very few times it's referenced in the series, and Kaworu's birth has finally been cleared up (in typical Eva speak, with phrases like "It seems..." and "Perhaps it occurred...").
Like I said, maybe I missed something, but in terms of Stage 72, I'm not sure what "fan theories" have to do with anything. (Also, where is the Adam Project given a stated purpose?)

Misato: I don’t care. That boy -- the Fifth, what is he really?
Ritsuko: Nagisa Kaworu... His date of birth is the same as Second
Impact.
Episode #24, told to Misato by Hyuga.

Probably because, on that day, in that place, he was the
final Angel to be born.
#24, Kaworu says, "Adam, the entity who is our mother. Must those who were born from Adam return to Adam..." blah blah blah. "Our" = "Angels", "Angels" includes Kaworu, ergo Kaworu was born from Adam. If Kaworu was born on the day of 2I, from Adam, then ... well, duh.

Misato (shocked): You can’t mean... Are you saying that all the
Angels were born from Adam?
See the above.

What did humans do to Adam on that day?
Not really explained explicitly ANYwhere. This one is a total *****.

(Background image of Lancea Longinus)
Yeah, we already knew it was involved in 2I.

Ritsuko: Humans tried to return Adam to an egg before the other
Angels awoke. The result was Second Impact.
Misato fed this to Shinji in #25'. It's still an extremely cryptic oversimplification either way.

Among the data from your father’s research team that was retrieved just before it happened, I have heard that there were indications of an attempt to use human genes in some way.
Pre-OP sequence in #21'.

If that was actually done in secret, if the Angel born at that time took human form, and if the Committee got their hands on it, then according to MAGI everything adds up.
Kaworu says that he and Rei are in the same form as the Lilim in #24'. The Committee acquiring Kaworu's egg along with Adam's is never stated in the anime, but it's not really a 'fan theory' either. The idea was publicized at least as early as the EoE theatrical program.

Yeah. So, nothing new. The same sparse, fragmented stuff the anime contains, just gathered up conveniently. But the manga is also leaving a lot of stuff out, like Misato's connection to Kaworu (by way of Daddy). (Sadamoto evidently doesn't want to venture into that terrain; he cut off the "Monoliths of the Lake" scene right before Kaworu would have glanced at Misato. Much more important than you might think.)

But wasn't his goal to create a divinity comprised of both Adam and Lilith that he could control (and therefore control Third Impact)? I thought the whole idea for placing Lilith's soul in Rei, and implanting Adam into his own hand, was so that Adam and Lilith would adopt their respective personas (i.e. Rei/Lilith acting subservient to Gendo/Adam). That way, when they merged, Gendo would have dominant control over GNR.
He was giving Rei instructions on what to do, which went as far as delivering him (and everybody else, apparently) to Yui (EVA-01). "Control over Third Impact" isn't something I think Gendo would be capable of in the way you seem to be suggesting; rather, I imagine he'd be functioning in a similar way as Shinji unwittingly ends up.

Merging with Adam? I'll make the suggestion that it had something to do with Gendo's idea of complementation -- which, I think, involves bringing Lilim and Apostles together and giving everybody "one perfect leaf", so to speak. You get to hold both Fruits and keep your individuality, too! Unfortunately, you need to kill everybody on both sides before you can do that. And also unfortunately, this idea is really hard to explain in the grotesque detail that might be required, and I feel rather lazy rather now, so if I sound absolutely mad, I guess that's okay. :D

And why'd he put Adam in his PALM, too? Well, I guess we can see where else in the show palms might be relevant in such wacky contexts... Also, perhaps relevant, they make a point of drawing attention to the left-hand palm of that Dr. Katsuragi guy -- who is established as Gendo's counterpart on a certain level as-is -- in three different ways. (Although some would say it's all in my head. Bah!)

Eh... new for me, most likely old for the rest of you guys. :P
Well, probably, but you never know. Care to share?

Dr. Nick

July 8th, 2006, 11:11 PM

(Although some would say it's all in my head. Bah!)

*raises hand* Hai! Me, myself and I.

Reichu

July 8th, 2006, 11:29 PM

*raises hand* Hai! Me, myself and I.
You weren't a very good sport when I attempted to share the ideas and explorations about Dr. Katsuragi behind closed doors, declaring them worthy of total annihilation before I had barely begun to say my piece. "There's MORE? Hell with that. Drop the N2 Bomb now, and ask no questions." Tsk tsk tsk. Won't do. What became of courtesy?

I hope you're not contemplating any more kamikaze tactics, BTW. I know how much you hate (hate) this one.

Dr. Nick

July 8th, 2006, 11:51 PM

You weren't a very good sport when I attempted to share the ideas and explorations about Dr. Katsuragi behind closed doors, declaring them worthy of total annihilation before I had barely begun to say my piece.

Just kick up a pre-existing thread and finish what you started, then.

I hope you're not contemplating any more kamikaze tactics, BTW. I know how much you hate (hate) this one.

Absolutely not. It's not like we get a narrator announcing that Kaworu is a clone of some random nobody.

Reichu

July 9th, 2006, 05:27 AM

Just kick up a pre-existing thread and finish what you started, then.
Continue one of *those* threads? I would rather drink the soda leaking out of the trash bags at fast food joints!

No. I'm an opportunist, waiting for my opportunity. I tend to just lazily dangle hooks in most of my posts. The time-consuming 'exposition' is much easier to do "in the moment", when the issue at hand has become (however briefly) an actual focal point in conversation. And then, it all flows like urine from a swollen bladder. (But it doesn't necessarily smell quite as rank.)

Absolutely not. It's not like we get a narrator announcing that Kaworu is a clone of some random nobody.
You rather fancy that Narrator Lady.

Dr. Nick

July 9th, 2006, 06:57 AM

Continue one of *those* threads? I would rather drink the soda leaking out of the trash bags at fast food joints!

I kinda understand. I wouldn't want anyone to bump that original LAEM-thread either... (People: HINT HINT)

Blader5489

July 9th, 2006, 08:54 AM

(Also, where is the Adam Project given a stated purpose?)

In Stage 72, Gendo says that GEHIRN "will also pursue the restoration of the original Adam" and then Fuyutsuki titles that the Adam Project. I don't believe that's ever stated in the anime (though I don't know what that has to do with impaling Lilith with the Spear).

<snip>

No no, I wasn't referring to Kaworu being born from Adam or 2I being a result of Adam being made into an egg. This next part is what I was referring to by "Kaworu's birth":

Among the data from your father’s research team that was retrieved just before it happened, I have heard that there were indications of an attempt to use human genes in some way.
Pre-OP sequence in #21'.

If that was actually done in secret, if the Angel born at that time took human form, and if the Committee got their hands on it, then according to MAGI everything adds up.
Kaworu says that he and Rei are in the same form as the Lilim in #24'. The Committee acquiring Kaworu's egg along with Adam's is never stated in the anime, but it's not really a 'fan theory' either. The idea was publicized at least as early as the EoE theatrical program.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but isn't Ritusko saying here that Kaworu was created by as a result of experimenting human genes with Adam? And that those genes are the reason why Kaworu, unlike the other Angels, has a body resembling humans?

He was giving Rei instructions on what to do, which went as far as delivering him (and everybody else, apparently) to Yui (EVA-01). "Control over Third Impact" isn't something I think Gendo would be capable of in the way you seem to be suggesting; rather, I imagine he'd be functioning in a similar way as Shinji unwittingly ends up.

Merging with Adam? I'll make the suggestion that it had something to do with Gendo's idea of complementation -- which, I think, involves bringing Lilim and Apostles together and giving everybody "one perfect leaf", so to speak. You get to hold both Fruits and keep your individuality, too! Unfortunately, you need to kill everybody on both sides before you can do that. And also unfortunately, this idea is really hard to explain in the grotesque detail that might be required, and I feel rather lazy rather now, so if I sound absolutely mad, I guess that's okay. :D

The CI states that Gendo fused with Adam so that he could merge with Rei/Lilith. Then, as this divinity, he would merge with EVA-01 (I'm guessing it'd be something similar to GNR assimilating Yui/ToL in EoE). I don't think he was trying to enter the Ark called Yui. :P

As for "control of Third Impact", the only reason Shinji was in a position to affect everything was because Rei gave him that choice. This is just speculation on my part, but I believe that had she not done that, GNR would've had ultimate control over their event.

Well, probably, but you never know. Care to share?

Well for one, Yui and Fuyutsuki's lake side conversation in 21'. Having only seen the NPC episodes once, I forgot (or maybe never knew in the first place) about Yui wanting to rush her Contact Experiment and merge into EVA-01's core so as to escape assassination by SEELE.

Also Reichu, I keep forgetting to ask you, but whatever became of this? (http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=159236) Were you able to extract any further useful/interesting/baffling information from Eva tomo no kai?

Reichu

July 9th, 2006, 10:33 AM

In Stage 72, Gendo says that GEHIRN "will also pursue the restoration of the original Adam" and then Fuyutsuki titles that the Adam Project. I don't believe that's ever stated in the anime (though I don't know what that has to do with impaling Lilith with the Spear).
I think in episode #14, Fuyutsuki was changing the subject after Gendo says that the Adam Project is not even 2% behind schedule or whatever.

No no, I wasn't referring to Kaworu being born from Adam or 2I being a result of Adam being made into an egg. This next part is what I was referring to by "Kaworu's birth"... Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but isn't Ritusko saying here that Kaworu was created by as a result of experimenting human genes with Adam? And that those genes are the reason why Kaworu, unlike the other Angels, has a body resembling humans?
Just stuff in the anime conveniently gathered in one spot, like I said. I was confused by your suggestion that fleshing out things more than the anime did, since none of the information is technically new. But, come to think of it, I suppose there are those who didn't take the "assembly" of the clues in the anime seriously. Even with Sadamoto spelling it out for people, they're still under no obligation to believe it, because the anime itself doesn't spell it out in plain words. :rolleyes:

Do keep in mind that anything that IS "unique" to the manga is not automatically filling up a gap in the anime. (But you probably know that.) They need to be carefully weighed for their potential validity, like anything else. The manga certainly isn't going to be the salvation of the geeks boggling over the anime.

The CI states that Gendo fused with Adam so that he could merge with Rei/Lilith. Then, as this divinity, he would merge with EVA-01 (I'm guessing it'd be something similar to GNR assimilating Yui/ToL in EoE).
It's ambiguously worded enough that it's not restricted to such a reading. "As this divinity", for example, isn't actually there.

I don't think he was trying to enter the Ark called Yui. :P
Still not sure how you're coming to that conclusion, but here's one for you: Rei comments in #25 that, in the end, Gendo is going to abandon her. Offhand, I can't think of anything that actually contradicts with the implications of this: That is, that Gendo wasn't planning to stick around with Lilith any longer than required. "A means to an end."

The show basically tells us that said 'end' lies with Yui/Eva, and apparently Gendo and Yui have plans of their own. (See: Gendo's babbling at EVA-01's cage in #24.) There is a lot of information one needs to gather into a pile and sort through before a decent picture of Gendo's plan can be reached. (Another way to approach the matter is to consider not just Gendo, but think of him as a 'team' with Yui and Kozo.) Might require a huge fanwank job. Never know until you try.

As for "control of Third Impact", the only reason Shinji was in a position to affect everything was because Rei gave him that choice. This is just speculation on my part, but I believe that had she not done that, GNR would've had ultimate control over their event.
Things are convoluted enough that I'm hesitant to draw any firm conclusions one way or another at the moment. But look at it this way.

Seele put a lot of stock into Shinji "complementing mankind with [his] imperfect ego", and Fuyutsuki says that the fate of humanity is up to Shinji, right after EVA-01 becomes "sorta God". Now, why would they say this if Shinji weren't acting as some kind of crucial ingredient for HIP, and Lilith could just proceed according to her own whims? Why would Shinji's angsty little ego be elevated to such incredible status (check out all of the Shinji-related gobbledygook associated with 3I phenomena), when he's really not a pilot anymore (in the sense that he's not doing any piloting) and Mommy has become a complemented divinity with such incredible power you'd think she could just do whatever she wants? (But we only get to see that when she dismantles everything.) There's something awfully fishy going on.

If it wasn't Shinji, it probably would have been somebody else -- Gendo, or otherwise.

Well for one, Yui and Fuyutsuki's lake side conversation in 21'. Having only seen the NPC episodes once, I forgot (or maybe never knew in the first place) about Yui wanting to rush her Contact Experiment and merge into EVA-01's core so as to escape assassination by SEELE.
Were you reading old threads or something?

Also Reichu, I keep forgetting to ask you, but whatever became of this? (http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=159236) Were you able to extract any further useful/interesting/baffling information from Eva tomo no kai?
Random odds and ends ("Anno designed JA? lol"), but NGE2-scale undertakings aren't coming anytime soon. Also, don't put too much stock in the translation of the thing you linked to -- some of it sounds decidedly dodgy. I'd be able to pull off a rather better (and probably complete) one in the present day.

Blader5489

July 9th, 2006, 01:35 PM

Do keep in mind that anything that IS "unique" to the manga is not automatically filling up a gap in the anime. (But you probably know that.) They need to be carefully weighed for their potential validity, like anything else. The manga certainly isn't going to be the salvation of the geeks boggling over the anime.

Of course, I'm not going to put all my faith into the manga and the possibility of Sadamoto answering a lot of questions. I just don't think it should be blatantly ignored just because of differences that Sadamoto has made to the characters.

It's ambiguously worded enough that it's not restricted to such a reading. "As this divinity", for example, isn't actually there.

"As this divinity" was just something I wrote as a kind of reflex. When I read that Gendo's aim was to fuse with Adam and then Lilith, I immediately thought of GNR, which (unless I'm wrong) is something of a god/goddess/divinity. Though I wouldn't say it's far off, considering the CI calls it Gendo's "personal vision of divinity."

Still not sure how you're coming to that conclusion, but here's one for you: Rei comments in #25 that, in the end, Gendo is going to abandon her. Offhand, I can't think of anything that actually contradicts with the implications of this: That is, that Gendo wasn't planning to stick around with Lilith any longer than required. "A means to an end."

Good point, I'd forgotten about that. Though couldn't Rei's fear be realized had she merged with Gendo into his "personal vision of divinity"? In 25, Rei was afraid that her identity would cease to exist (i.e. Rei adopts her true persona of Lilith, losing her identity as Rei Ayanami) once Gendo was done with her. Wouldn't this have actually happen had she fused with Gendo and then EVA-01?

Seele put a lot of stock into Shinji "complementing mankind with [his] imperfect ego", and Fuyutsuki says that the fate of humanity is up to Shinji, right after EVA-01 becomes "sorta God". Now, why would they say this if Shinji weren't acting as some kind of crucial ingredient for HIP, and Lilith could just proceed according to her own whims? Why would Shinji's angsty little ego be elevated to such incredible status (check out all of the Shinji-related gobbledygook associated with 3I phenomena), when he's really not a pilot anymore (in the sense that he's not doing any piloting) and Mommy has become a complemented divinity with such incredible power you'd think she could just do whatever she wants? (But we only get to see that when she dismantles everything.) There's something awfully fishy going on.

I guess SEELE had to put all their faith into Shinji because he was just in that position. I don't think that's why they wanted (which is probably why they created the Dummy System in the first place, and ordered the JSSDF to kill the pilots while retrieving the Evas), just something they had to go with.

I also don't think Lilith could've "proceeded by her own whims." I mean, she could, but she wanted to give control over everything to Shinji. If Lilith's soul hadn't been incarnated as Rei, and raised to be closely tied with the Ikari family (i.e. the relationships she forms with Gendo and Shinji throughout the course of the series), then my guess is that Lilith would've simply initiated 3I of her own volition.

Were you reading old threads or something?

More or less. Why, has that theory been rendered obsolete since then?

Soluzar

July 9th, 2006, 04:36 PM

More or less. Why, has that theory been rendered obsolete since then?
I'm not sure if it has or not, but I rather hope not, since I do think that theory had a trace of elegance to it. It was discussed extensively at one point, but I can't recall what consensus arose.

Oath5

July 9th, 2006, 04:51 PM

I always thought Rei intentionally ( with the help of a metaphysical Kaworu) poked and prodded Shinji towards the decision to reject Instrumentality....their dialouge is often very..." Wait! Think about this!" in nature...and even in the television episode versions- Rei is used as a " topic" changer and points out the problems in everyone, I remember her appearing behind Asuka and confiming she was just like Shinji, whom Asuka was currently berating truthfully about his overall character- thus initiating a Instrumentality " Asuka in the hot seat" scene.

Reichu

July 9th, 2006, 06:50 PM

Of course, I'm not going to put all my faith into the manga and the possibility of Sadamoto answering a lot of questions. I just don't think it should be blatantly ignored just because of differences that Sadamoto has made to the characters.
It can be rejected because of changes that he's made to the mythos, though...

"As this divinity" was just something I wrote as a kind of reflex. When I read that Gendo's aim was to fuse with Adam and then Lilith, I immediately thought of GNR, which (unless I'm wrong) is something of a god/goddess/divinity. Though I wouldn't say it's far off, considering the CI calls it Gendo's "personal vision of divinity."
Remember that it is just a translation, and one of the earlier CI entries (i.e., in the worst need of tweakage). FYI, "divinity" is just how I chose to render kami at that time. The entry can, still, be taken multiple ways. It's "accomodating" enough that it is compatible with my own working theory, as well.

They do it on purpose, you know. ;)

On an aside, seeing translations I worked on cited in one-on-one geek-combat against my own ideas in ways I'd never anticipated feels incredibly weird. :P "Hey, I didn't use that wording so you could do that!" But seriously, some revisions do need to be made. I better get movin'...

More or less. Why, has that theory been rendered obsolete since then?
Naw, none of the discussion or findings since Dr. Nick and I had our illegitimate lovetheory (at least, I think that's how it went) have thrown it out of orbit. Knock on wood.

I wonder how much of this tennis match is so completely incomprehensible that not only do most of the readers have no clue what we're talking about, neither of us really know what the hell is going on, either. :lol: I don't think *I* really do. (I actually haven't had a clue ever since I stopped knowing everything sometime in February.)

Blader5489

July 9th, 2006, 07:12 PM

"Hey, I didn't use that wording so you could do that!"

Somehow, I know that if Anno were reading all this, he'd say exactly the same thing. ;)

NAveryW

July 9th, 2006, 07:59 PM

Somehow, I know that if Anno were reading all this, he'd say exactly the same thing. ;)
If Anno were to go to Eva message boards in his spare time, he'd probably die of laughter from most of what he read. :P

Soluzar

July 9th, 2006, 08:35 PM

If Anno were to go to Eva message boards in his spare time, he'd probably die of laughter from most of what he read. :P
There's no way to prove this, but I think he'd more likely die of a broken heart.

ElDusto

July 9th, 2006, 09:31 PM

There's no way to prove this, but I think he'd more likely die of a broken heart.
Wasn't he very depressed when he made EVA? That's something I heard somewhere a few years back.

Reichu

July 9th, 2006, 09:45 PM

I'm not sure why you say he would "die of a broken heart". That could be taken a number of different ways.

I do imagine the man mocking me and everything I do. He and his staff are incredibly cruel people. You know, you hear the crap about how you're not supposed to dwell upon "NGE", and you should elevate yourself to a higher level of being than the sort of scummy otaku Anno-tachi used to be. But the way the show is structured and engineered ENCOURAGES heavy-duty geekery, and Anno-tachi have participated in undertakings after the fact that reinforce the fan behaviorisms already known to exist. If they were really interested in imparting a message that would encourage otaku-types to change their tune, and also NOT obsess over the show, they left it in one giant tar pit of their own insidious, sadistic design.

I wonder what the full scoop on all of that actually is.

Soluzar

July 9th, 2006, 09:46 PM

Wasn't he very depressed when he made EVA? That's something I heard somewhere a few years back.
Indeed he was, but there's no actual connection between that and what I am saying. The connection is in the message of Evangelion, or at least, in what I perceive that message to be.

I'm not sure why you say he would "die of a broken heart". That could be taken a number of different ways.

I do imagine the man mocking me and everything I do. He and his staff are incredibly cruel people. You know, you hear the crap about how you're not supposed to dwell upon "NGE", and you should elevate yourself to a higher level of being than the sort of scummy otaku Anno-tachi used to be.That would be exactly the reason why. I don't think he would have envisioned debate lasting for this length of time. I'm not even sure that he has entirely realised how intractable Western audience find his puzzle to be. I'm also not convinced that Japanese fans have as much difficulty in compehending the ideas involved as Western fans do.

But the way the show is structured and engineered ENCOURAGES heavy-duty geekery, and Anno-tachi have participated in undertakings after the fact that reinforce the fan behaviorisms already known to exist.
I didn't suggest that this was not true. However, that's a behaviour in which you choose voluntarily to persist. It is perhaps fascinating that this gives you a choice similar to that which Shinji had during third impact. We're each free to choose the way in which we live our lives. I don't see that this invalidates the message. You yourself have often stated that when the Commentary Project is complete, it will be an enormous relief to lay down your burden, and to know, without a shadow of a doubt, that you've achieved closure on this particular chapter of your life.

If they were really interested in imparting a message that would encourage otaku-types to change their tune, and also NOT obsess over the show, they left it in one giant tar pit of their own insidious, sadistic design.

I wonder what the full scoop on all of that actually is.
I wrote something prior to that, but it was cynical, and not entirely true. If you want to know what I really think about the material, that was produced after the fact, such as these "Classified Information Files", and the Director's cut, it's that Anno and his associates were frustrated with their own work. They knew that it wasn't quite as perfect as it could have been, and their fragile human ego drove them to strive to complete it. That's understandable enough.

You will note, of course, that in all of this, I don't claim to agree with him. Nor do I claim to disagree with him. I'm not expressing a personal judgement on what I perceive his expressed views to be. All I'm doing is using his expressed views to take a crooked look at the puzzle. I also can't help but wonder if the message was as much for himself as anyone else. You have to ask yourself if he's taken his own advice, in some ways. I'm not sure I could answer in the affirmative to that.

On a semi-related note, have you found any time to watch Densha Otoko?

Reichu

July 9th, 2006, 10:00 PM

The man has no reason to die of a broken heart if his show fails to achieve it's supposed One True Purpose because of the way he designed it. There is no way he can't be aware of the effect NGE has on people when it piques their curiosities, as well. It's an incredibly counterintuitive and hypocritical work if it's only to be viewed in terms of a supposed One True Purpose. I'm hesitant to make anything beyond cynical comments, really; we're at a huge disadvantage, being as so much of what Anno-tachi have ACTUALLY said remains, for us, hidden behind the wall of an unfamiliar tongue.

It is perhaps fascinating that this gives you a choice similar to that which Shinji had during third impact.
I always knew my geekery was of such destructive potency it would eventually Tangify every living creature on the planet. If I don't finish my crazed project by 2015, we're all done for.

Soluzar

July 9th, 2006, 10:12 PM

The man has no reason to die of a broken heart if his show fails to achieve it's supposed One True Purpose because of the way he designed it.
Well, when I wrote that, it was intended to be perceived as an exaggeration for comic effect. That's not to say that there's no truth in it, but rather that the real truth is a more moderate version of what I said.

There is no way he can't be aware of the effect NGE has on people when it piques their curiosities, as well. It's an incredibly counterintuitive and hypocritical work if it's only to be viewed in terms of a supposed One True Purpose.
All I'm saying on that topic is that I suspect he gravely underestimated the scale of the effect, and the longevity of the effect it would have on some people. This fascination, for many people it has a limited lifespan, but for others, it lasts much longer. I'm certain you know precisely what I mean.

I'm hesitant to make anything beyond cynical comments, really; we're at a huge disadvantage, being as so much of what Anno-tachi have ACTUALLY said remains, for us, hidden behind the wall of an unfamiliar tongue.
Yes! How true! Don't you think it's at least possible that if you were a native Japanese speaker, you'd have already discovered the answers you seek, and resolved the ambiguities that you find? If not entirely, then to a substantial degree?

I always knew my geekery was of such destructive potency it would eventually Tangify every living creature on the planet.
I'm pretty confident you know what I mean. I'm not making any explicit value judements, and nor are any meant to be inferred either from what I'm saying, or from the value system implicit in the relevant media, but I'm confident that you'll see the correspondance.

It often strikes me that while Neon Genesis Evangelion can be enjoyed purely at the level of an interesting narrative as presented on the surface, there is another level to much of it, on which it may be appreciated as a sort of scripted psychodrama, distinct from the more literal events portrayed. I'm pretty sure that we've agreed to a certain extent on discussions of that subject in the past. In any case, that's the source of the analogy. It's not by any means a literal or direct analogy. I'm pretty confident you understand the idea I meant to convey.

If I don't finish my crazed project by 2015, we're all done for.
In that case, I'm rather pleased that your rate of progress has increased lately. However, I don't believe that anything you're involved in would yield catastrophic results for the world, whether it's finished on schedule and to your satisfaction or not. :P

Reichu

July 9th, 2006, 10:44 PM

Yes! How true! Don't you think it's at least possible that if you were a native Japanese speaker, you'd have already discovered the answers you seek, and resolved the ambiguities that you find? If not entirely, then to a substantial degree?
I was referring specifically to the stuff Anno and the staff have said about the show (interviews, written statements, and suchlike) so that we might have a better idea as to what was really going on. What we do have in that arena is incredibly vestigial compared to what actually exists. It's a level of ambiguity rather different from the ambiguities that infest the anime's internal universe, and people constantly making statements about "Anno's intention" this and "true purpose of the show" that and "what exactly DO they think about 'us'?" without much in the way of sources, if any at all, gets rather tiresome.

I'm still poorly organized when it comes to information about the creative team (as opposed to internal universe details), but it is a fact that so much remains undeciphered -- if it is even available at ALL to the sorts of people who would be willing to decipher it nowadays and make it widely available.

Soluzar

July 9th, 2006, 10:47 PM

I was referring specifically to the stuff Anno and the staff have said about the show (interviews, written statements, and suchlike) so that we might have a better idea as to what was really going on. What we do have in that arena is incredibly vestigial compared to what actually exists. It's a level of ambiguity rather different from the ambiguities that infest the anime's internal universe, and people constantly making statements about "Anno's intention" this and "true purpose of the show" that and "what exactly DO they think about 'us'?" without much in the way of sources, if any at all, gets rather tiresome.

I like to think that my own views can be substantiated entirely from the body of work itself, rather than from external sources. It is impossible to be certain on anything such as this, which is why I try, in so far as is posible, to ask a pointed question, rather than to make a blanket statement.

Reichu

July 9th, 2006, 11:16 PM

If you're going to take that approach, then anything you've ever read about Anno and the rest of the creative team doesn't count, because if it's not in the show it is entirely irrelevant. Approaching the work in a complete vacuum, without the context? Well, whatever floats your boat.

That's the last from me on this string, though. The thread has gotten horribly off-topic, and into territory I don't particularly care for either. Back to the subject header.

ElDusto

July 10th, 2006, 06:58 PM

Indeed he was, but there's no actual connection between that and what I am saying. The connection is in the message of Evangelion, or at least, in what I perceive that message to be.

I was just quoting you because your post reminded me of something I heard. I wasn't implying that your post and his depression were connected.

Reichu

July 10th, 2006, 07:25 PM

Soluzar's post caused Anno's depression. TIME PARADOX!

</spam>

ElDusto

July 10th, 2006, 07:44 PM

Soluzar's post caused Anno's depression. TIME PARADOX!

</spam>
<spam>Snake! What are you doing?! You caused a Time Paradox!</spam> LOL! You'd have to play Metal Gear Solid 3 to get that one.

CanonRAP

July 10th, 2006, 08:06 PM

<spam>Snake! What are you doing?! You caused a Time Paradox!</spam> LOL! You'd have to play Metal Gear Solid 3 to get that one.

It would be kinda funny if you can kill Ocelot during Snake Eater.

Guns of the Patriots looks real nice, BTW. The cast from both MGS1 and 2 coming together :D.

[/off-topic]

Reichu

July 10th, 2006, 08:19 PM

<spam>Snake! What are you doing?! You caused a Time Paradox!</spam> LOL! You'd have to play Metal Gear Solid 3 to get that one.
I never did get around to playing that one. My acquaintance with the meme is the fault of viral /b/tardation. From the 4chan page @ WikiWorld:

TIME PARADOX

As in /b/'s 3 millionth post, although this meme has been around for years prior (it's a staple of the time-travel movie genre). Originated in Metal Gear Solid 3; if the player kills a character that becomes important in the first two games or waits too long at the Game Over screen, the game ends and Colonel Campbell of MGS1 and MGS2 fame yells "Snake What have you done?! You've created a time paradox!" Sometimes used in reference to pictures containing two or more images of the same character. Often followed by "Oh shi-"
I don't even go to 4chan. 4chan goes to me! http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/bawl.gif

Soluzar

July 10th, 2006, 08:37 PM

Soluzar's post caused Anno's depression. TIME PARADOX!

Not quite... actually, it's a different kind of time paradox than you think. After making that post, I travelled back in time, and met Anno. I told him about the "Naoko in Zerogouki", "Ego, Superego and Id", theories, and all the rest of that crap from Wikipedia.

Sad to say, the man was double-dosing the Effexor by the time I left.

ElDusto

July 10th, 2006, 08:42 PM

It would be kinda funny if you can kill Ocelot during Snake Eater.

Guns of the Patriots looks real nice, BTW. The cast from both MGS1 and 2 coming together :D.

[/off-topic]
I saved the game just so I could do that every once in awhile. And I saved it for the Nightmare game, too.

Blader5489

July 13th, 2006, 01:01 PM

In an effort to make sense of 2I and 3I, as well as how they connect (according to Maya, the data is the same in both situations, so the two events should be occuring similarly to each other) I've come to the conclusion that destrudo and the Doors of Gauf have something to do with Adam.

But I don't know what, exactly.

Destrudo is the self-destructive impulse, in which one kills oneself along with everyone around (which is what Shinji 'wishes' for in 26'). According to the RCB, when the Doors of Gauf are opened, individual AT fields will vanish and everyone on Earth will revert into an LCL sea. So there's obviously some kind of connection between the two (maybe opening the Doors releases destrudo?).

Destrudo might also explain why Adam does what she does during 2I. All the elements (in chronological order) are present: an anti-AT Field (or is it two?), Adam killing mostly everyone with an explosion, opening her own Doors of Gauf, turning the Katsuragi team into LCL, and then Adam being "blown apart" herself (according to NGE2). I just don't how to tie it all together, or even properly articulate it.

Just something to ponder over. I just had kind of an epiphany and felt like sharing it. :P

Reichu

July 13th, 2006, 08:50 PM

Destrudo is the self-destructive impulse, in which one kills oneself along with everyone around (which is what Shinji 'wishes' for in 26').
It doesn't have to be that extreme. It's just the opposite of libido (in the technical sense).

I've come to the conclusion that destrudo and the Doors of Gauf have something to do with Adam.
It's "Guf", BTW.

According to the RCB, when the Doors of Gauf are opened, individual AT fields will vanish and everyone on Earth will revert into an LCL sea.
Direct quotations are better. :P

According to the words spoken by Fuyutsuki in episode 26', the opening of the Chamber of Gaf [sic] is synonymous with the opening of the door to the world's beginning and end. When this door opened, the surface of the Earth turned to L.C.L, and people were also no longer able to maintain their individual life forms and were reduced to L.C.L. Ritsuko also spoke of the Chamber of Gaf in episode 21.

(#21? Okey dokey... lol n00bz)

So there's obviously some kind of connection between the two (maybe opening the Doors releases destrudo?).
The Rei-tachi seem to be the ones directly responsible for that. Can't totally articulate the logic right now, but do check out the ATF blurs that occur immediately before people go SPLOOSH.

I still have a lot of questions about the Guf stuff myself, and I'll have to think about the stuff you bring up. Here's something I've mused in the past (from here (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5705657&postcount=132)):

Members of the Adam-type humanity don't seem to be born with souls; they're received after birth. The Apostles apparently got theirs on the day of Second Impact. During the frenzied moments just prior:

Woman D "Begin thermal dampening treatment as soon as the Doors of Guf open."

What the hell are Doors of Guf? In EoE, at least, they're the name given to the giant, vulval slits on Lilith's palms:

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C316A_d_mid.jpg

...and are described by Fuyutsuki as the doors to "the world's beginning and end". Later, we see souls being drawn into them:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/Souls/m26_C372.jpg

(Although a lot are being drawn into the Black Moon, as well. Ooo, mysteries.) These "Doors of Guf" apparently lead to a "Chamber of Guf", a term gratuitously borrowed from Judaism that refers to where souls wait to be born. Since what's happening here is basically a reversal of life's origins, with physical bodies reverting to LCL and so on, it seems reasonable to guess that these Doors of Guf can not only serve as in-doors (as they are here), but out-doors as well.

That is to say, the reference to them shortly before 2I is probably anticipating Adam opening up her own "Doors" and releasing souls for her children -- "fertilizing" her eggs with spiritual essence kind of like, er, those fish doing their whole spawning thing.

And an idea of mine on the Chamber itself, from here (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5768991&postcount=5):

I will flatly admit I still have no solid grasp upon WTF the Tree of Life is supposed to be or what it does, but I'm pret-ty sure it is a concept distinct from the Chamber of Guf. As for the CoG, a brief summary of what I currently think ...: It's essentially a pocket space that serves as a spiritual reservoir, with the portals to it (Doors of Guf) manifesting as slits on the hands of the curatress*, and one can make both "withdrawals" and "deposits" depending on circumstance. ("Fill me up, I'm going on a cosmic voyage!") Granted, there is still a lot of crap left to work out, but that's the gist of it.

The ultimate origin of souls in NGE seems to transcend the concept of "Guf".

* You know, "caretaker".
There is a ton of other stuff regarding DoGs and CoGs (lol acronyms) that I've never gotten around to barfing up, though. (Like what led to that "reservoir" idea in the first place.)

Destrudo might also explain why Adam does what she does during 2I. All the elements (in chronological order) are present: an anti-AT Field (or is it two?)
My best guess: One, Adam's. I have never been able to make heads or tails of the original line of dialogue, as it makes no grammatical sense in and of itself, and those who responded to my plea at anime-lyrics... Well, see for yourself (http://www.animelyrics.com/forum/topic_show.pl?pid=423568#423568) if you like. With this bit of dialogue as crappily ambiguous as it is, and the INability to artificially generate ATFs (let alone AATFs!) already established "in the present day", the Katsuragi Team purportedly generating an AATF doesn't really fit. At all.

Adam killing mostly everyone with an explosion, opening her own Doors of Gauf, turning the Katsuragi team into LCL, and then Adam being "blown apart" herself (according to NGE2).
Hey, don't forget about the show, dude. Ritsuko actually says that the First Angel exploded (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5702329&postcount=94) as early as #07. (BTW, "blown apart" was a slightly more elegant way of phrasing what SEEMED to be a euphemism for "blown to bits". :lol: )

I just don't how to tie it all together, or even properly articulate it. Just something to ponder over. I just had kind of an epiphany and felt like sharing it. :P
Heh heh heh. I know the feeling...

Blader5489

July 14th, 2006, 12:57 PM

It doesn't have to be that extreme. It's just the opposite of libido (in the technical sense).

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destrudo), "destrudo is the urge to destroy both oneself and everything else." Though I know you guys take anything from Wikipedia with a grain of salt. ;)

The Rei-tachi seem to be the ones directly responsible for that. Can't totally articulate the logic right now, but do check out the ATF blurs that occur immediately before people go SPLOOSH.

My idea was that opening the Doors of Guf released waves of destrudo across the planet, which manifested itself as the Rei-tachi.

I never noticed the ATF blurs before everyone is liquified, though. I have no idea what to make of that.

Well, see for yourself (http://www.animelyrics.com/forum/topic_show.pl?pid=423568#423568) if you like. With this bit of dialogue as crappily ambiguous as it is, and the INability to artificially generate ATFs (let alone AATFs!) already established "in the present day", the Katsuragi Team purportedly generating an AATF doesn't really fit. At all.

That one guy (Pierrot's friend) had an interesting idea, in that Adam was spreading an ATF and the Katsuragi team was countering it with an AATF. It makes sense out of lines like "minimizing the damage" and also works in conjunction with the manga's short description of 2I (on the last post here (http://www.evamonkey.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16&sid=57cf753f00161b87858f99c292912355)).

Also, I thought I should mention that it doesn't seem like it would be impossible to artificially generate an AATF. I agree that that's true of an ATF, which only be produced by a soul, but EoE gave me the impression that an S^2 organ is the only thing needed to generate an AATF. Since the translation for Evangelion Chronicles (http://forums.evamonkey.com/viewtopic.php?t=1390&sid=66671e9fd3d9fe7c15ef6432d7fc851b) seems to imply that the Katsuragi team was creating their own S^2 Engine (based on studying Adam, I guess), it wouldn't have been impossible for the research team to generate an AATF, regardless of how effective it may've been.

Reichu

July 14th, 2006, 08:04 PM

That one guy (Pierrot's friend) had an interesting idea, in that Adam was spreading an ATF and the Katsuragi team was countering it with an AATF.
Doop de doo.

Female Announcer (right) "State of emergency, state of emergency. All personnel, put on your protective gear. All workers in Level 2 and below, immediately evacuate to the upper area of Central Dogma."
Man F (left) "Stop the surface luminescence! It's surpassing calculated predictions!"
Woman B (left) "The genes that dived into Adam have already undergone physical fusion!"
Woman C (left · radio) "All A.T. Fields are being released!"
Guess he forgot about that line...

Just FYI, EoE demonstrates that AATFs have absolutely no effect on entities made of "angel stuff".

Blader5489

July 15th, 2006, 08:16 AM

Woman C (left · radio) "All A.T. Fields are being released!"[/indent]

I don't know the original Japanese, but is the line synonymous with the various references (mostly, if not entirely, in EoE) to people losing their AT Fields and dissolving into LCL as a result? Because I can't think of any other in way in which ATFs could be released, as opposed to the Evas and Angels 'spreading' their ATFs as defensive barriers.

Just FYI, EoE demonstrates that AATFs have absolutely no effect on entities made of "angel stuff".

When does the movie demonstrate that? IIRC, the only beings who generate AATFs in EoE are GNR and the Eva series, and it's not like the AATFs are being directed onto them.

Also, on a fairly unrelated note, I'm still confused about the implications in which the Way to God are used in NGE. It makes sense in the context of Lilith (or Yui, as a substitute) being crucified to act as a "medium" (according to the RCB and Fuyutsuki) that directs peoples' souls into the Black Moon. But what does the Eva series have anything to do with that?

Going off the diagram you provided several pages earlier, Jesus is the Way to God and thus Lilith/Yui can fulfill that role by themselves. What role are the Evas supposed to play, and how do they "open" the Way to God (if it's just a reference to what Lilith/Yui are)?

Reichu

July 15th, 2006, 09:14 AM

I don't know the original Japanese, but is the line synonymous with the various references (mostly, if not entirely, in EoE) to people losing their AT Fields and dissolving into LCL as a result?
I don't think that exact term recurs (except with regard to the Eva Series "releasing" their S2 Engines), but it doesn't need to, considering the results we get.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/Souls/death_C0015_ookii-hane.jpg

What's going on here, and who that AATF belongs to, should be a bit of a no-brainer, IMO.

Episode #26' (bochan_bird)

Shigeru (off screen):
The Eva series have opened up their S2 systems!

Makoto (off screen):
Dimensional values inverting! They're going negative!
Measurement impossible... Numerical expression invalid!

Fuyutsuki:
An anti-AT Field...

(Eva series form into the Sephiroticum (Tree of Life))

Maya:
All the data are just like 15 years ago!
Then... this really is... The prelude to Third Impact!

Before the announcer at the UN Base says that A.T. Fields are being released, Adam starts glowing -- just like the Eva Series when they deploy that AATF. Clearly the change of events has been set off that results in the "local settings" for the South Pole being reset and altered into something incompatible with Lilith-based life.

At the moment, I'm hesitant to assign a role to Adam's Doors of Guf beyond releasing souls for her kiddles. In #26', Fuyutsuki says, "The Chamber of Guf has been unsealed. Have the doors of the world's beginning and end finally been opened?" ..."Finally"? We're clearly dealing with multiple 'chambers' here, and it's Lilith's specifically that he's talking about. You probably need to approach Adam's and Lilith's separately, in any case.

When does the movie demonstrate that? IIRC, the only beings who generate AATFs in EoE are GNR and the Eva series, and it's not like the AATFs are being directed onto them.
Is Lilith making some kind of specification, "AATF, affect everybody except those made of Angel Stuff"? I'm not sure what the point of bothering would be, considering the harpies took part in the "sweet death" proceedings and liberated their souls by trashing their cores.

Speaking of AATFs, now I'm wondering why the harpies generated one in association with their Sephiroth display.

Re: Way to God... Beats me.

Reichu

July 16th, 2006, 08:36 PM

Made a wacky discovery today... I was flipping through the Proposal (for this post (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5848456&postcount=6)) -- which contains that preliminary NGE scenario -- and, on the page for Apostolo (not Angel yet), my eye caught ... "First Ancestral Race".

Hmm. I guess they really have been there all along, eh? We need a translation of that damned Proposal sometime...

Dr. Nick

July 19th, 2006, 10:16 AM

This topic has been prodded around a bit, but any conclusions have yet to be reached. Therefore I bump and ask, how do you think we should interpret these two seemingly contradictory statements?

D. In-Depth Information

Nerv Headquarters was constructed inside the Black Moon containing Lilith. The Angels are all heading for Nerv H.Q. so that they can make contact with Lilith, the white giant in Terminal Dogma. They were aiming for her from the start, not Adam.

Two Seeds of Life cannot exist on one planet, and, therefore, one of them is excluded. As recorded in the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls, Adam-based life took part in a contest of survival, putting the stakes on their own existence. Some of them were trying to access Lilith and reset all life, some of them had nothing in mind, and some were trying to recover their progenitor Adam. The Angels –- Adam-based life –- became active under their respective tactics for survival and success.

Ornette

July 19th, 2006, 10:24 AM

Rockthing had a slightly different take on section D of Angels:
Without thinking of anything at all these things decided to start trying to access Lilith, whereby all life will be 'reset' in order to recover their ancestor, Adam. Each Angel respectively had it's own strategy for prosperity, when these Adam-based life-forms became active.
But Reichu's translation seemed more fluent.

Blader5489

July 19th, 2006, 11:35 AM

I've got a couple random, yet on-topic (since basically all of NGE is being discussed in this thread), ideas that I wanted to put down on (digital) paper. I'm not that attached to any of these ideas, so feel free to criticize and correct them.

Tree of Life:
-When Fuyutsuki says the Tree of Life was "restored", that's most likely a reference to the Judeo-Christian ToL having been destroyed during the Great Flood, not a previous ToL in the NGE universe that had been destroyed.

-The ToL was most likely not something that occured of Rei's own volition, but something that SEELE had been planning for to happen during 3I. Not only do they chant "To restore the Tree of Life" but the ToL, I believe, has some connection to the Way to God.

AT Fields and Gods:
-Reichu once asked how to make sense of the last section in the ATF entry, and I think all that needs to be done is reevaluate how an ATF is destroyed. The previous notion was that a god projects an AATF that dissolves a person's ATF, causing that person to dissolve into LCL. Now, it seems like that's not the case. Rather, an ATF is destroyed because people's ATFs, when in the prescence of gods (Evas and/or SoLs), are expanded to a godlike level. Since people can't become gods, their ATFs can't expand that far, so they collapse on themselves which causes said people to dissolve into LCL.

-The above works with the third section of the HIP entry, which states that "if people gathered up their gods... they thought they could become a god themselves." By gathering up gods (Lilith and the Eva series), SEELE was able to turn expand humans' ATFs to the point of collapse, so that their souls could be liberated and merged into a single entity: Adam Kadmon (which also fits with the last section of the SEELE entry).

-Also the NERV entry equates the Way to God with the evolution of humanity (which, as we know, is the process in which everyone loses their ATFs and bodies so that their souls are freed up for the next stage). The CI also says that the Evas are the only keys capable of opening the Way to God. So this, as well, can be easily reconciled with everything above.

Just random musings, but I think they help clear up some of the confusion that's seemingly coming from the CI (and the anime as well).

Reichu

July 19th, 2006, 10:28 PM

This topic has been prodded around a bit, but any conclusions have yet to be reached. Therefore I bump and ask, how do you think we should interpret these two seemingly contradictory statements?
You don't "interpret" -- you fanwank! </sardonic>

Rockthing had a slightly different take on section D of Angels:
But Reichu's translation seemed more fluent.

I got the impression that the sentence was relating the idea, "Some [Angels] do (A), some do (B), some do (C)." I suppose I could nag those poor people at animelyrics again just to be sure. (Damn, the <bleep> I would <bleep> to be fluent!)

Dr. Nick

July 20th, 2006, 02:52 AM

You don't "interpret" -- you fanwank! </sardonic>

There is only one cure for your bitterness. (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5851373&postcount=3569)

Reichu

July 21st, 2006, 11:11 AM

There is only one cure for your bitterness. (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5851373&postcount=3569)
GAH HAH HAH! You'll have to do better than that!

And in the post-CI world, I'm not sure if there IS any cure for my bitterness. I can't help but think I've birthed the next monster, to follow in the footsteps of the "RCB". It'll get worse once the permapage goes onto FGC (which I have been working on, albeit slower than I'd hope, OF course). Just so you kids know, some of the translations are going to look rather different.

Regarding the line about "some do...", the only third opinion I've gotten so far involved a "very quick glance", but the person did agree with my assessment. I'll wait and see, though...

Soluzar

July 21st, 2006, 12:49 PM

And in the post-CI world, I'm not sure if there IS any cure for my bitterness. I can't help but think I've birthed the next monster, to follow in the footsteps of the "RCB". It'll get worse once the permapage goes onto FGC (which I have been working on, albeit slower than I'd hope, OF course). Just so you kids know, some of the translations are going to look rather different.

Disclaimer: This information was translated from a document in Japanese. Although the translator is competent in Japanese, interpretations may vary. If you wish to prove a point using this information, and to be certain of your grounds, you should ideally see my transcript of the original japanese text, available here

Just a suggestion, ya know?

Blader5489

July 21st, 2006, 01:43 PM

And in the post-CI world, I'm not sure if there IS any cure for my bitterness. I can't help but think I've birthed the next monster, to follow in the footsteps of the "RCB". It'll get worse once the permapage goes onto FGC (which I have been working on, albeit slower than I'd hope, OF course). Just so you kids know, some of the translations are going to look rather different.

Hopefully the HIP section sees something of a revision. God knows that, as is, it's ridiculously annoying to try and figure out.

With any luck, Evangelion Chronicles will be the be-all, end-all answer to the show's mysteries (lawl). ;)

Reichu

July 21st, 2006, 08:02 PM

Just a suggestion, ya know?
I don't think a transcript of the original Japanese is going to be very useful to anyone who doesn't know any Japanese.

Hopefully the HIP section sees something of a revision. God knows that, as is, it's ridiculously annoying to try and figure out.
HOW DO YOU THINK I FEEL http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/argh.gif

With any luck, Evangelion Chronicles will be the be-all, end-all answer to the show's mysteries (lawl). ;)
http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/point.gif

Magami No ER

July 21st, 2006, 09:21 PM

With any luck, Evangelion Chronicles will be the be-all, end-all answer to the show's mysteries (lawl). ;)
Wah, don't mean to N00b it up, but did I miss<forget>something here?^^;

Reichu

July 21st, 2006, 09:34 PM

loln00b ;)

http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=192452
http://forums.evamonkey.com/viewtopic.php?t=1390

Magami No ER

July 22nd, 2006, 07:36 AM

Oh, the EM thread is good, thanks.

Blader5489

July 24th, 2006, 02:49 PM

I'm trying to reconcile all of the info presented thus far so as to actually make sense of Third Impact, both what really happened and what SEELE was planning. It really is coming together, but I just wanted to see what others thought of this bit:

There's been a lot of talk about in the CI about the Path to God, which was originally a Christian concept (Jesus is crucified, this act "opens" Path to God, path is a symbolic cross that links human souls with God) and I've been trying to see how this fits into EoE.

What do you guys think of the idea that, in NGE, this (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/Souls/m26_C365.jpg) is the act of opening the Path and this (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/Souls/m26_C368.jpg) is the actual Path itself?

Ornette

July 24th, 2006, 05:05 PM

What do you guys think of the idea that, in NGE, this (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/Souls/m26_C365.jpg) is the act of opening the Path and this (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Reichu/Souls/m26_C368.jpg) is the actual Path itself?
Hmm, can you elaborate a little more on this?

Blader5489

July 24th, 2006, 05:39 PM

Hmm, can you elaborate a little more on this?

Sure. Like I said, 'Path to God' is another religious concept used in EoE. In Christianity, I believe the basic idea is that the act of Jesus being crucified was the 'key' that opened the Path. The Path itself is represented by a cross that links humans with God (of course the cross it's only a symbolic link, as the Path itself is entirely spiritual - it's not like a giant cross stretched up into the sky :P). Previously, when the Path to God was closed, souls just lingered in their bodies after death. With the Path opened, those souls can join with God (it's just like a coexistence though, not an actual fusion of God and human souls).

So, IMO, here's how it relates to EoE. The CI states that the Evas (and I'm assuming they're referring to the completed Eva series, and not Units 00-04) are the key to opening the Path. So after Rei has finished dissolving everyone's individual forms, and thereby released their souls, the Evas crucify themselves. This is the act that opens the NGE Path to God. Just like how the Christian path is represented by the cross, the NGE path is represented by the countless number of crosses that cover the world.

So basically, here are the parallels as I see them:

Jesus is crucified (path is opened) --> cross links Man with God

Evas are crucified (path is opened) --> crosses link Red Earth with Black Moon (i.e. individual souls with Complementation)

Reichu

July 24th, 2006, 06:49 PM

That's actually rather interesting... It still feels like some things are missing, but keep at it. You may well be onto something.

This actual reminds me of how I've batted around the "Path" terminology in the past (if anyone remembers the "FiP" stuff), referencing the flow of souls towards Lilith. Like, they're all heading for the same place, Lilith ("God"), so they're all on a "path to God". Crucifictions and "opening" never figured into the thought process, though. Looking up kami e no michi to find out what it referred to wasn't such a bad idea.

Surprised you've been able to have so much fun with that one little diagram, though. ;) Sometime you'll need to expand your repertoire to squeeze in the SToL (which also conveys the concept of linking Man with God, IIRC), which is such a big enough Keel has his flying monkeys 'draw' it in the skies above Hakone. (And there's a fleeting occurence of the Trinity symbol before Tangification starts, too.)

Just FYI, the image that separates the harpies' suicides from the massive soul orgy is of a drop of blood (yes, it's red) falling sideways into, uh, LCL? Hmm, okay...

Ornette

July 24th, 2006, 06:58 PM

So, IMO, here's how it relates to EoE. The CI states that the Evas (and I'm assuming they're referring to the completed Eva series, and not Units 00-04) are the key to opening the Path. So after Rei has finished dissolving everyone's individual forms, and thereby released their souls, the Evas crucify themselves. This is the act that opens the NGE Path to God. Just like how the Christian path is represented by the cross, the NGE path is represented by the countless number of crosses that cover the world.

So basically, here are the parallels as I see them:

Jesus is crucified (path is opened) --> cross links Man with God

Evas are crucified (path is opened) --> crosses link Red Earth with Black Moon (i.e. individual souls with Complementation)
I definitely see what you mean with the second image. I think that's a good premise for what those crosses are for. But the first image (did you post the right image?), doesn't look like they're crucifying themselves, they're breaking open their cores. Although that scene preceeds the one from the second picture, I think what's going on there is the MPEs are breaking their cores so whoever's soul inside them can join instrumentality, notice the red glow:
http://buzzy.tesuji.org/images/animated/mpe_cores.gif
it was mentioned here: http://www.animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5849316&postcount=15

Reichu

July 24th, 2006, 07:17 PM

I still want to know what the hell is wrong with that harpy's face (besides the obvious). Ugh, those things give me the willies. http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/scared.gif

BLACKANGEL32076

July 25th, 2006, 10:04 AM

I'm starting to think that was the whole idea of giving them faces in the first place.

Reichu

July 25th, 2006, 11:40 AM

But they were frightening to begin with!

Blader5489

July 25th, 2006, 11:50 AM

This actual reminds me of how I've batted around the "Path" terminology in the past (if anyone remembers the "FiP" stuff), referencing the flow of souls towards Lilith. Like, they're all heading for the same place, Lilith ("God"), so they're all on a "path to God".

That's what I originally thought, except Lilith herself isn't important to SEELE's plan (since, in EoE, they were going to use Eva-01 instead). What they need is a medium (yorishiro) to reset the Earth and all life forms on it, so as to release everyone's souls.

I think Path to God is a misnomer, as SEELE's final goal isn't to become one with God or Lilith, but to become one with each other. "Path to Complementation" would be a far more accurate name. =P

Sometime you'll need to expand your repertoire to squeeze in the SToL (which also conveys the concept of linking Man with God, IIRC), which is such a big enough Keel has his flying monkeys 'draw' it in the skies above Hakone. (And there's a fleeting occurence of the Trinity symbol before Tangification starts, too.)

I've got to make this short for now, but my understanding of the SToL in EoE (note that it's inverted) is basically showing that the Evas and Yui (who was replaced by GNR) were tasked with returning individual souls to Paradise (which is called Ain Soph, I believe, and lies right above Kether - my guess is that the NGE equivalent is the Black Moon).

So forming the inverted SToL isn't so much an act in and of itself (aside from unearthing the Black Moon), but merely used to show that the Evas and whichever medium they used were going to return all souls in the physical world to their paradise in the Black Moon (which is the opposite of what the regular SToL depicts).

No idea what function the Trinity symbol is supposed to serve, other than raising the Black Moon into space.

Soluzar

July 25th, 2006, 12:22 PM

I've got to make this short for now, but my understanding of the SToL in EoE (note that it's inverted) is basically showing that the Evas and Yui (who was replaced by GNR) were tasked with returning individual souls to Paradise (which is called Ain Soph, I believe, and lies right above Kether - my guess is that the NGE equivalent is the Black Moon).

I'm wondering what that says about Dis Astrangant, the Banpresto Original mecha, myself. Dis Astranagant's final attack is called Ain Soph Ur.

Reichu

July 25th, 2006, 01:18 PM

That's what I originally thought, except Lilith herself isn't important to SEELE's plan (since, in EoE, they were going to use Eva-01 instead). What they need is a medium (yorishiro) to reset the Earth and all life forms on it, so as to release everyone's souls.
Why do you think that's what they mean by "medium"?

I think Path to God is a misnomer, as SEELE's final goal isn't to become one with God or Lilith, but to become one with each other. "Path to Complementation" would be a far more accurate name. =P
It excels in its ambiguity. Gendo wants to open the Path, too, but he has a different plan that also somehow involves the SToL (he has it on his ceiling, after all).

I've got to make this short for now, but my understanding of the SToL in EoE (note that it's inverted)
It would only be inverted from the perspective by which it's shown. It's technically lying on an even plane. </devil's advocate>

Also speaking of inversions, recall the inverted ToL at 2I, which is properly oriented before 3I.

is basically showing that the Evas and Yui (who was replaced by GNR)
If it was an actual "replacement", why does GNR absorb her?

were tasked with returning individual souls to Paradise (which is called Ain Soph, I believe, and lies right above Kether - my guess is that the NGE equivalent is the Black Moon).
I'd been rolling around a Kether / Black Moon connection in my head, too, but hadn't done any research on it... Black/Dark Moon is an astrological reference, so that gives you something to work with there; the designations "source of human life" and "Lilith's Egg" need to be considered, as well. What an artificially constructed, hollow sphere that the FAR stuck in a big piece of rock has to do with any of that crap, I have absolutely no idea...

Paradise is Eden, I thought. ;) Looking in me new book (Tree of Souls: The Mythology of Judaism) here, Ein Soph ("the Endless One") is the highest, and "unknowable", emanation of God; the "knowable" parts are emanated through the sephiroth.

Here's something interesting:

THE COSMIC SEED

In the beginning a holy spark emerged from within the hidden depths of God, concealed within the mystery of the Infinite. As the spark began to glow, radiant colors were revealed. That spark was a cosmic seed, planted in the innermost recesses of the divine womb. There it was hidden away within a palace of its own creation, the way a silkworm hides itself in a palace of its own. It was there, in that palace, that the holy seed was sown, from which all of existence came forth. Before that spark nothing is known. That is why it is called the Beginning.

Comments: This is the key kabbalistic creation myth in the Zohar, found near the beginning of the book. It is both a mystical commentary on Genesis 1:1 and a creation myth of its own, as well as the primary myth describing the process of emanation of the ten sefirot. As a creation myth, it draws on the cosmic egg type of myth, in this case creation from a cosmic seed that takes root in the primordial womb. Unstated, but suggested, is the mythic image of a divine womb, and the hint of a goddess figure who gives birth to the world.

At the same time, this myth functions in the Zohar as an alternate creation myth, that of creation by emanation, as performed through the ten sefirot. It proposes that the world emanated from the highest, unknowable part of God known as Ein Sof, the Endless, in a series of emanations, each identified with one of the ten sefirot. The language of the Zohar in presenting this myth is extremely allusive, symbolic, and cloaked in mystery.

I wonder if this "cosmic seed" stuff has anything to do with "cosmic tree" (as the ToL is sometimes called). Later, perhaps. Researching Da'ath ought to yield some interesting results; I remember Dr. Nick digging up stuff a while back that sounded "awfully familiar". (Maybe I can find that later, too.)

The Cosmic Seed bit is followed by a series of entries about how at first "there was only a universe of water", also. That's not anything unusual in mythology, of course, but I suppose its presence here (in a kabbalistic context) and the word "universe" made me think of the LCL Sea. (Which I think may be closely related to the Dirac Sea. Consider for starters: when EVA-01 shoots at the "shadow", fluid that looks suspiciously like LCL slurts out, and Ritsuko later says of the Dirac Sea, "I think it's connected to another universe/space".)

Oh yeah. And when you consider all the Black Moon stuff, you have to take into consideration the two streams of souls flowing into the Doors. (All while keeping in mind that, inside Lilith, there are three streams of Rei swimming in a vast sea of corpses towards a red moon; and that Shinji, inside EVA-01, inside the ToL, inside Lilith, mind-melds with everybody who's in the Black Moon).

So forming the inverted SToL isn't so much an act in and of itself (aside from unearthing the Black Moon), but merely used to show that the Evas and whichever medium they used were going to return all souls in the physical world to their paradise in the Black Moon (which is the opposite of what the regular SToL depicts).
What about the AATF? And how about that giant eyeball explosion? TOO MUCH INFO!!!

No idea what function the Trinity symbol is supposed to serve, other than raising the Black Moon into space.
Yeah, but there's no correlation if you put it that way.

Keep at it, d00d.

Soluzar

July 25th, 2006, 01:26 PM

Paradise is Eden, I thought. Looking in me new book (Tree of Souls: The Mythology of Judaism) here, Ein Soph ("the Endless One") is the highest emanation of God and the one that is "unknowable"; the "knowable" parts are emanated through the sephiroth.

I've checked again, and the attack name is "Ain Soph Aur". Might you have any idea what to make of that?

Reichu

July 25th, 2006, 01:31 PM

"Light of Ein Soph", if that fits.

Soluzar

July 25th, 2006, 01:35 PM

"Light of Ein Soph", if that fits.

It's usually called "Infinite Light" by the fans, so that does fit well, since it could mean "Light of the Endless One", or something of that nature. Thank you. :)

Blader5489

July 25th, 2006, 03:00 PM

Why do you think that's what they mean by "medium"?

I'm not really sure. Fuyutsuki says yorishiro, which is the Shinto idea of a kami infusing itself into a physical object, but I can't really see how that applies here.

It would only be inverted from the perspective by which it's shown. It's technically lying on an even plane. </devil's advocate>

Since it was inverted facing the screen, I'm assuming Anno wants us to know that it was inverted. :P

Also speaking of inversions, recall the inverted ToL at 2I, which is properly oriented before 3I.

I'm still not sure of how valid that scene is. It was only one frame in DEATH. Do you know if that same frame was in #21' and/or DEATH(true)^2?

If it was an actual "replacement", why does GNR absorb her?

Maybe it's just something Rei is doing of her own volition? Kind of like merging the Spear into Eva-01. The scene is obviously meant to be similar to the union of Lingam/Yoni from Hinduism.

the designations "source of human life" and "Lilith's Egg" need to be considered, as well. What an artificially constructed, hollow sphere that the FAR stuck in a big piece of rock has to do with any of that crap, I have absolutely no idea...

Maybe it's just where Lilith originally gave birth to human souls?

As a creation myth, it draws on the cosmic egg type of myth, in this case creation from a cosmic seed that takes root in the primordial womb.

"Primordial womb"... isn't that what Gendo called the Black Moon in #26?

The Cosmic Seed bit is followed by a series of entries about how at first "there was only a universe of water", also. That's not anything unusual in mythology, of course, but I suppose its presence here (in a kabbalistic context) and the word "universe" made me think of the LCL Sea. (Which I think may be closely related to the Dirac Sea. Consider for starters: when EVA-01 shoots at the "shadow", fluid that looks suspiciously like LCL slurts out, and Ritsuko later says of the Dirac Sea, "I think it's connected to another universe/space".)

It could also be a connection to the "beginning of the universe" scene at the start of the OP.

Oh yeah. And when you consider all the Black Moon stuff, you have to take into consideration the two streams of souls flowing into the Doors. (All while keeping in mind that, inside Lilith, there are three streams of Rei swimming in a vast sea of corpses towards a red moon; and that Shinji, inside EVA-01, inside the ToL, inside Lilith, mind-melds with everybody who's in the Black Moon).

I remember someone's interpretation of what was going on there (I can't remember the original poster, though). I think it was something like: "The beginning (Lilith) and the end (Black Moon) are one in the same." It may also be a Leliel type situation in which you can see two distinct objects, but they lead to the same place (in Leliel's case it was the Sea of Dirac, in EoE's case it was the Chamber of Guf).

What about the AATF? And how about that giant eyeball explosion? TOO MUCH INFO!!!

Well, the AATF is taking the form of the SToL.

Also, something I've been meaning to ask, does anyone know what symbol the Eva series forms in front of GNR (right before they grow Rei heads)? I understand what the Evas are doing, but it could be a whole lot clearer if I knew what symbol they were making (my first impression was the Seven Eyes of God, since it contains seven circles, but I'm not too sure about that).

Reichu

July 25th, 2006, 05:34 PM

I'm not really sure. Fuyutsuki says yorishiro, which is the Shinto idea of a kami infusing itself into a physical object, but I can't really see how that applies here.
Eh, there's always this.

[Medium (YORISHIRO)]
An object which attracts divine spirits (= souls) or which acts as a media through which these spirits manifest themselves. In episode 26', Fuyutsuki refers to Eva-01 as a "Medium" (Well of Souls) when SEELE uses it to create the Tree of Life.
I don't know what bb's thing with "Well of Souls" is, because that ain't in the original Japanese.

Making Yui into a "medium" apparently entails "crucifying" her and forming the SToL (not the ToL from later on). This, of course, involves punching gaping holes into her palms. Ever wonder if those actually might be for a "practical" purpose? For starters, where else in the show do you see "stigmata"? And with regard to mediums, can you think of any 'divine spirits' that might be of special interest to Seele, and perhaps 'thematically' relevant to the ToL stuff?

I'm still not sure of how valid that scene is. It was only one frame in DEATH. Do you know if that same frame was in #21' and/or DEATH(true)^2?
#21' only goes up to the 'big hands' and ends there. The revamped Wings of Light shot is exclusive to DEATH. And by "DEATH", I am just referring to the movie in general. The screenies come from the FEATURE FILM DVD (= Renewal), which is DEATH(TRUE)^2 (natch), but the Wings cut was there in the original version, as well.

As for its validity, the side-by-side comparison ought to speak for itself.

Maybe it's just something Rei is doing of her own volition? Kind of like merging the Spear into Eva-01.
I suppose it's ambiguous who's responsible for the latter. (But we do know that Yui enjoys it.)

The scene is obviously meant to be similar to the union of Lingam/Yoni from Hinduism.
For one rather terse cut, there is an awful lot of information... Some possible leads here (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5797565&postcount=198).

Maybe it's just where Lilith originally gave birth to human souls?
If Lilith 'gave birth' to human souls, then where does the Chamber of Guf figure in...? (A possibly rhetorical question, like so many others. ;) )

"Primordial womb"... isn't that what Gendo called the Black Moon in #26?
Gendo doesn't call it anything. Fuyutsuki says, "Lilith's egg, the source of human life... 'The Black Moon'."

Reichu

July 25th, 2006, 08:29 PM

It could also be a connection to the "beginning of the universe" scene at the start of the OP.
My thoughts exactly. The nebulous red domain that emerges from the "pulse" (the "holy spark"?) is called akai uchuu, or "red universe/space" (with the image of Sammael -- a depiction of the Ultimate Being? -- imposed upon it). A light appears in the distance and we begin our transition to blue, with the moving starfield, over which the Tree of Life (Fludd's, to be equated with what EVA-01 becomes in EoE) appears. We start at the bottom of the tree (the branches) and move to the top (roots). The flickering light motif appears and haloes of light engulf the screen -- signifying an emergence from some primordial womb?

The "red universe" motif shows up again in both its "nebula" form (behind the row of Rei in #15, on the ceiling of the "Arena" in #24, behind the Shinjiquarium in #26', etc.) and as a starfield (#14, during both the monologue and Shinji's contact with Zero; #20, Shinji's bizarre journey). ("Astral space" also occurs when Shinji first encounters Yui's soul in #16.) The Sea of LCL seems strangely familiar, not only in being a massive red space, but in having the stars visible on the horizon. (Along with various other things I can't properly articulate at the moment.)

Aside from Leliel splurting out LCL-looking fluid and perhaps leading to another place, there is something scribbled on Ritsuko's whiteboard about "Red Shift" (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-16/16_C165_comp.jpg). Now, I really have no idea what the hell that is, but I accidentally stumbled across this (http://www.arachnoid.com/sky/redshift.html), and the picture made me go, "Whoa. It's like NGE's starfields!"

Er, anyway. The "Prelude" of the OP probably has a lot of bearing on the f'd-upness that is EoE.

I remember someone's interpretation of what was going on there (I can't remember the original poster, though). I think it was something like: "The beginning (Lilith) and the end (Black Moon) are one in the same."
Should try to find that if you can.

It may also be a Leliel type situation in which you can see two distinct objects, but they lead to the same place (in Leliel's case it was the Sea of Dirac, in EoE's case it was the Chamber of Guf).
Well, if everybody really wants to go to the Chamber of Guf, why bother with the Black Moon at all? Just go right into those palms like two streams of souls already are, right? And, as I've already said, I still don't understand what endows what is basically a hollow sphere made out of lots of little curving plates with so many mystical properties and so much significance. I mean, what can it possibly do for everybody that the primordial mum can't?

Well, the AATF is taking the form of the SToL.
Yeah, but why are they bothering with an AATF? They're not melting anybody down; Lilith's AATF helps out with that later on. Whatever they're up to, it's at this point that the parallels with 2I are drawn, as opposed to later.

Also, something I've been meaning to ask, does anyone know what symbol the Eva series forms in front of GNR (right before they grow Rei heads)? I understand what the Evas are doing
"You don't understand -- you fanwank!"

(I need to stop doing that.)

but it could be a whole lot clearer if I knew what symbol they were making (my first impression was the Seven Eyes of God, since it contains seven circles, but I'm not too sure about that).
If anybody would know, or know how to find out, it's our old pal Zuggy. Somebody can try posting a pic of the image at THAT BOARD, since I don't think he's been banned there, yet. [Edit: I think "Anonymous" will do it, if you know what I mean.]

So, uh, why the heck do the Evas "fuse" with Rei and become butt-fugly deformed vile ohdeargodwhyannowhy?

felineki

July 25th, 2006, 09:33 PM

Also, something I've been meaning to ask, does anyone know what symbol the Eva series forms in front of GNR (right before they grow Rei heads)?I vaguely recall someone mentioning that it's a symbol that represents "infinity"... I don't know whether or not that's accurate, though.

Jabberwok

July 26th, 2006, 07:14 AM

I remember someone's interpretation of what was going on there (I can't remember the original poster, though). I think it was something like: "The beginning (Lilith) and the end (Black Moon) are one in the same."

I think you may be referring to something retarded I said in this fun thread (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=192177). More specifically, this post (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5792467&postcount=56).
...My futile effort did bring me to another posible conclusion, though. Said simply, by Keel, "The end and the beginning are one in the same" (or something like that).

Fuyutsuki describes the Black Moon as "the source of all life" (?) and Lilith's orgasmic wave of death is quite clearly "the end of all life". In addition, when the reformed Tree of Life descends into Lilith's Third Eye and Shinji opens his eyes to the New-And-Improved Giant-Reiquarium, I had always felt that reddish space to be spherical and within the Black Moon itself, yet I never questioned how Shinji could have somehow found himself within that cavity some 100km away.

"The beginning (The Black Moon) and the end (and Lilith herself) are (lead to) one in the same (the Chamber of Guf)"...

...or I'm an idiot.

More idiocy coming soon...

Reichu

July 26th, 2006, 07:18 AM

I only recall somebody saying that they thought it resembled the infinity symbol, but that was it. Though, if you pick a line and follow it, it will take you in a perpetual loop.

Posted the pic. (Er, I mean, Anonymous posted the pic.) Since I can't link to THAT BOARD, here's what we have so far:

***

Name Anonymous 06/07/26(Wed)14:42 No.20010 [Reply]

hey, dose anyone know what this symbol is?

>> Name Anonymous 06/07/26(Wed)22:38 No.20050

Count the circles, Anonymous.

>> Name Reichu 06/07/26(Wed)22:47 No.20052

Hmm, there are seven circles (seven being the Almighty Number and all), but that doesn't do much to address the actual identity of this geometric figure.

>> Name Anonymous 06/07/26(Wed)22:58 No.20054

Not? Have you never heard of the "almighty seven circle thingy"?

>> Name Anonymous 06/07/26(Wed)23:04 No.20057

Looks to me to be a stylised vibrational image of a seed sound like om/aum, similar to http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~ray.tomes/rt_osc_7.jpg from http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~ray.tomes/cymatics.htm which of course ties at once into the "AT fields resonanting!" line as well as the torus GUT posted elsewhere (cymatics).

10 nested concentric circles intersect oneanother in a 6x6 (da Vinci canon? grid of man?), I've never seen something like this before so no further comments from me here.

>> Name Anonymous 06/07/26(Wed)23:06 No.20058

*The ten concentric circles are of course the tree of life in another form http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image22vj8.jpg forgot that previously, as is so often the case the symbolism repeats itself throughout.

***

If you're "very clever", you can figure out what belongs to Zuggy. (He makes a rather poor Anonymous.)

EDIT: @Jabberwok -- "I'm not sure if I buy into this idea myself" or suchlike would suffice. http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/tsk.gif

Reichu

July 26th, 2006, 08:09 AM

BTW, here's the image:

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C138A_col-disc_mid.jpg (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C138A_col-disc.jpg)
(click for bigger)

Reichu

July 26th, 2006, 09:32 AM

Some more...

***

>> Name Anonymous 06/07/27(Thu)00:14 No.20063

There aren't seven circles there. There are two groups on either side of GNR and one group on her back. The group on her back are made up of 6 circles and the two groups of circles on either side of GNR are made up from 10 circles. Both are representations of the tree of life.

>> Name Anonymous 06/07/27(Thu)00:16 No.20064

>>Reichu: Hmm, there are seven circles

Where?

>> Name Reichu 06/07/27(Thu)01:20 No.20070

Hmm, perhaps "circles" was the wrong choice of word. Maybe this will get the idea across better:
http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C138A_eyes.jpg

>> Name Anonymous 06/07/27(Thu)02:05 No.20072

Your image doesn't mean anything... try instead interconnecting circles and see how the pattern unfolds:

Implied trinity: http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Zugzwang-R/Tatig/Picture1.png

Then: http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Zugzwang-R/Tatig/Picture2.png

Finally: http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Zugzwang-R/Tatig/Picture3.png

Which naturally relates to: http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Zugzwang-R/Tatig/tol2.gif and http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Zugzwang-R/Tatig/FoL.jpg rachet that pattern around and you get a horn torus, the shape of the human energy field http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Zugzwang-R/Tatig/tol3.gif which is the same as a hypercube, which when projected unto a 2D surface forms a octagon within a octagon and a hexagon: same shape as the AT field, it all fits together.

>> Name Anonymous 06/07/27(Thu)02:21 No.20073

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Zugzwang-R/Tatig/hypercompression.jpg Forgot to say, this is also repeated in the Room of Reis. Look at how the lines are displaced on the 'graph' with the wavepattern plotted onto it, then the hypercube in the centre, then watch this video to see how they relate in 3D: http://youtube.com/watch?v=MjJUw2uL0gE then look at how the hindu yogis describe their energy field being a torus with chakras/prana tube running down their spine, then look again at the Room of Reis and notice the spine running through the centre of the torus field... more at http://animeboards.com/showthread.php?t=59412

***

If you have any idea what Zuggy (= "Anonymous" Who Is Obviously Zuggy) is talking about, please explain it to me in the vernacular.

Reichu

July 26th, 2006, 10:50 AM

Some more...

***

>> Name Anonymous 06/07/27(Thu)02:33 No.20081

The jump from http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Zugzwang-R/Tatig/Picture3.png to http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Zugzwang-R/Tatig/tol2.gif isn't very plausible and the rest is just an extreme amount of overinterpretation. Which brings me to: Why didn't you put yourself in here: http://www.asuka-langley-sohryu.com/general/imgboard.php?res=19941 instead of that Tines guy?

>> Name Anonymous 06/07/27(Thu)02:46 No.20099

The reason those comics are being made are because those people are part of The Conspiracy; banning and following me both online and offline, also because I find them funny.

If that is so then what about the other parts of my posts here today where I pointed out the 6-fold and 10-fold nested circles are representations of the tree of life also, doesn't that simply reinforce earlier conclusions.

A jump eh? Better not tell that to everyone else! http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2005-38,RNWE:en&q=seed%20of%20life&sa=N&tab=wi also, don't mention about the geometry of the 'human lightvehicle' spoken of in qabalah either which uses the same pattern...

>> Name Anonymous 06/07/27(Thu)03:21 No.20107

>>
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2005-38,RNWE:en&q=seed%20of%20life&sa=N&tab=wi

None of these resemble http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Zugzwang-R/Tatig/Picture3.png either, unless you cut the two outer circles off. Which rather makes me think you learned of that "seed"-thing and now try to force it on this structure. If they would have wanted to imply that, they would have drawn it that way and not hide it in dozens of lines.

>> Name Anonymous 06/07/27(Thu)03:40 No.20112

First time I posted about the seed of life and sacred geometry in relation to eva was on evamonkey around a year ago (a couple of months after I joined?), previously to that it was purely spoken of on montauk project boards by me (delta-t/merkabah relation mostly), offline of course it was used by mekhizedek in relation to the great pyramid/original 8 cells and so on. Metatrons cube doesn't resemble the flower of life and yet that is the pattern from which it is derived - that's the way information is encoded in sacred geometry, to be unfolded, which is what Jung did every single day with his mandalas.

>> Name Anonymous 06/07/27(Thu)03:40 No.20113

Still no mention about the 6 to 10 fold geometry though (which still means it relates to the tree of life whether you trust the torus GUT/my words here or not). Also, your ignoring the other evidence that this is the case from the Room of Reis glyph as has been repeated here in this thread alone - once again your kinds ignore reality and schizophrenically split your mind into conscious/unconscious so you can never remember anything real.

>> Name Reichu 06/07/27(Thu)03:42 No.20114

20107 does have a point. The 'hidden geometry' is rather interesting, but perhaps it's worth sticking to what's immediately presented to us.

There is still the line pattern in and of itself. One thing I noticed is that if you follow a line (aside from the central circle), it will take you in a perpetual loop. (It's almost as if there are two vertically-oriented "infinity" signs in there, too.)

There's also the pattern formed by the Eva Series themselves, and the fact that it's centered upon Lilith's nape.

Incidentally, in the storyboards, an entirely different (and far less interesting) configuration is used. (Don't have a scan handy, though.)

***

Oh dear... Zuggy's gone into hysterics again. :sigh: But maybe at least some of that will help. He may be crazy, but he does know some rather interesting odds and ends.

Blader5489

July 26th, 2006, 12:19 PM

Eh, there's always this.

[Medium (YORISHIRO)]
An object which attracts divine spirits (= souls) or which acts as a media through which these spirits manifest themselves. In episode 26', Fuyutsuki refers to Eva-01 as a "Medium" (Well of Souls) when SEELE uses it to create the Tree of Life.
I don't know what bb's thing with "Well of Souls" is, because that ain't in the original Japanese.

Making Yui into a "medium" apparently entails "crucifying" her and forming the SToL (not the ToL from later on). This, of course, involves punching gaping holes into her palms. Ever wonder if those actually might be for a "practical" purpose? For starters, where else in the show do you see "stigmata"? And with regard to mediums, can you think of any 'divine spirits' that might be of special interest to Seele, and perhaps 'thematically' relevant to the ToL stuff?

Are those rhetorical questions? Because I don't know the answers. :P

The only thing I can think of is that, since Yui was substituting for Lilith, the Evas were recreating Lilith's crucifixion by crucifying Yui.

As for its validity, the side-by-side comparison ought to speak for itself.

I wasn't questioning the comparison, just whether or not it had been removed in the up-to-date versions.

For one rather terse cut, there is an awful lot of information... Some possible leads here (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5797565&postcount=198).

Interestingly enough, that answers your previous question (about how Shinji could hear the thoughts of everybody if they were in the Black Moon and he was inside GNR). Since Rei is the mother of humanity, her third eye would be the 'throne of all souls.' Once Shinji enters it, he can hear everbody else's thoughts.

This could also explain as to why, in #6, Rei tells Shinji she feels a bond to all people.

If Lilith 'gave birth' to human souls, then where does the Chamber of Guf figure in...? (A possibly rhetorical question, like so many others. ;) )

Well, assuming Lilith did birth human souls, then the Chamber of Guf would be the delivery room. ;)

Gendo doesn't call it anything. Fuyutsuki says, "Lilith's egg, the source of human life... 'The Black Moon'."

I was referring to original #26, "The Beast that Shouted I At the Heart of the World." Doesn't Gendo defend the idea of complementation (from the text on the screen, of course) by saying something like "It is not a return to nothingness. It's a return to the orignal state of being, a return to the primordial womb"?

My thoughts exactly. The nebulous red domain that emerges from the "pulse" (the "holy spark"?) is called akai uchuu, or "red universe/space" (with the image of Sammael -- a depiction of the Ultimate Being? -- imposed upon it). A light appears in the distance and we begin our transition to blue, with the moving starfield, over which the Tree of Life (Fludd's, to be equated with what EVA-01 becomes in EoE) appears. We start at the bottom of the tree (the branches) and move to the top (roots). The flickering light motif appears and haloes of light engulf the screen -- signifying an emergence from some primordial womb?

Well I remember reading in one of the other commentaries that a similar sequence is described as what a infant might see/feel/experience upon leaving the mother's womb. If that's the case, then "the beginning of the universe" would be something of an emergence from the primordial womb.

Should try to find that if you can.

Jabberwok posted it.

Yeah, but why are they bothering with an AATF? They're not melting anybody down; Lilith's AATF helps out with that later on. Whatever they're up to, it's at this point that the parallels with 2I are drawn, as opposed to later.

I agree - the Eva series form the explodey kind of AATF, while Rei's is of the melting variety. ;)

So, uh, why the heck do the Evas "fuse" with Rei and become butt-fugly deformed vile ohdeargodwhyannowhy?

I think one of the Renewal commentaries states that, in #23', Armisael takes on Rei's appearance (after merging with her) because Anno does a similar thing in #26'. If that's the case, then I'd assume that the Evas are simply merging with Rei so as to connect with her (i.e. become a part of 3I, since Rei will be the "medium" instead of Yui) and as result, they adopt her likeness.

As for the symbol I mentioned... Zuggy brings up an interesting point about it being an alternative ToL, although the only reason I say that is because the numbers fit (nine Evas and Yui formed the inverted SToL, and now nine Evas and Rei are forming the symbol-in-question).

Reichu

July 26th, 2006, 02:55 PM

Are those rhetorical questions? Because I don't know the answers. :P
What I was going for:

"Stigmata": Lilith's Doors of Guf
'Divine Spirits': Kamigami who were forcibly freed from physical form (as a prerequisite for 3I)

In theory, the stigmata bestowed upon Yui could act as "forced" Doors, providing passage for said souls into the 'medium'.

The only thing I can think of is that, since Yui was substituting for Lilith, the Evas were recreating Lilith's crucifixion by crucifying Yui.
That had occured to me, as well. But I don't think that's the only possibility worth considering.

Interestingly enough, that answers your previous question (about how Shinji could hear the thoughts of everybody if they were in the Black Moon and he was inside GNR). Since Rei is the mother of humanity, her third eye would be the 'throne of all souls.' Once Shinji enters it, he can hear everbody else's thoughts.
Well, technically, he only starts hearing everyone else's thoughts once he encounters those giggling Rei-things, does his "Ayanami... Rei?!?" routine again, Shinjiquarium shot, and THEN the flashing images start: Shinji clutching at his head (from #14), as if to convey the concept of psychological penetration; Misato giving him a "slap in the face"; and a couple of other images. Then the Montage From Hell begins.

I'm not quite sure I follow your thought stream on GNR's 3rd Eye.

Well, assuming Lilith did birth human souls, then the Chamber of Guf would be the delivery room. ;)
Well, the souls would need to empty out through the Doors of Guf, which look kinda like ... yeah, so wouldn't THAT process be the symbolic "birth"? Kekeke.

I was referring to original #26, "The Beast that Shouted I At the Heart of the World." Doesn't Gendo defend the idea of complementation (from the text on the screen, of course) by saying something like "It is not a return to nothingness. It's a return to the orignal state of being, a return to the primordial womb"?
Ah, you confused me. That's #25.

#25 [Platinum subs]

SHINJI:
What is this sensation?
I feel like I've experienced it before,
as if the shape of my body is melting away.
It feels so good.
I feel like I'm growing, expanding outward...
On and on...

TEXT:
That was the beginning of the instrumentality of people
What people are lacking
The loss in their hearts
In order to fill that void in their hearts
The instrumentality of hearts and souls begins
Returning all things to nothingness
The instrumentality of people had begun

IKARI:
No, it is not that we are returning to nothingness.
We are only restoring everything to its original state.
We are only returning to our mother, who has been lost to this world.
All souls will become one and find eternal peace.
That is all there is to it.

The old translation had, "It is no less than a return to the primal womb that we lost long ago", but the new one is spot-on, from what I can tell. Even though it doesn't make as much sense. Can always investigate more, someday...

Well I remember reading in one of the other commentaries that a similar sequence is described as what a infant might see/feel/experience upon leaving the mother's womb. If that's the case, then "the beginning of the universe" would be something of an emergence from the primordial womb.
I was referencing the tidbit from "Eva tomo no kai", yes, but I wasn't QUITE equating the beginning of the universe with emergence. I.e., there's an in-between. Or, uh, there's a time paradox, like in #19 when we get both visual motifs at once.

I agree - the Eva series form the explodey kind of AATF, while Rei's is of the melting variety. ;)
Since when was there an "explodey AATF"? It seems more logical to link the "Huge F-ing Explosions" up with "S2s in Overdrive". I mean, an AATF should be doing something to live up to its name somehow.

I think one of the Renewal commentaries states that, in #23', Armisael takes on Rei's appearance (after merging with her) because Anno does a similar thing in #26'.
No "I think"! Cite, cite, cite!

As for the symbol I mentioned... Zuggy brings up an interesting point about it being an alternative ToL, although the only reason I say that is because the numbers fit (nine Evas and Yui formed the inverted SToL, and now nine Evas and Rei are forming the symbol-in-question).
If that's all they were going for, though, they would have just used the nine concentric circles. He's probably hit on one aspect of the pattern, but much more remains.

Blader5489

July 26th, 2006, 06:07 PM

What I was going for:

"Stigmata": Lilith's Doors of Guf
'Divine Spirits': Kamigami who were forcibly freed from physical form (as a prerequisite for 3I)

In theory, the stigmata bestowed upon Yui could act as "forced" Doors, providing passage for said souls into the 'medium'.

That's an interesting idea, but makes sense of several scatted plot elements (both SEELE and Gendo having to defeat the Angels, SEELE's desires for humans to be reborn as a god, Keel's comment in the manga about using 3I for humans to be reborn as "children of God", etc).

The only thing that doesn't quite fit is Keel's line in #24, where he says "We won't rely on Adam or the Angels." Wouldn't your idea of the 3I medium be a reliance on the Angels?

I'm not quite sure I follow your thought stream on GNR's 3rd Eye.

The third eye represents the pineal gland (and, by association, the "throne of souls"). Considering Rei is the mother of humanity, I don't think it's a stretch to say that her third eye is a throne of all souls (a pineal gland that connects to all other humans).

But then again, does it really matter? The only people that Shinji communicates with after he enters the third eye is Lilith, Adam, and Yui. His "moment of psychological penetration" may just be something akin to his life flashing before his eyes.

Ah, you confused me. That's #25.

My mistake. I just checked #26, and the only thing Gendo says about 3I is that "It's the only way to exist."

We are only returning to our mother, who has been lost to this world.

Wtf?

Since when was there an "explodey AATF"? It seems more logical to link the "Huge F-ing Explosions" up with "S2s in Overdrive". I mean, an AATF should be doing something to live up to its name somehow.

Well during 2I, Adam generates an AATF that creates explosions. Nobody actually melts until Adam spreads his wings (which may be a hint to him/her/it opening his/her/it's Doors of Guf).

Based on what we see of AATFs in 2I and 3I, I'd say that an AATF alone creates an explosion, but an AATF coupled with the Doors of Guf opening (an indicator of which is an SoL spreading his/her wings) is what "resets all life."

No "I think"! Cite, cite, cite!

This (http://www.evamonkey.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=731&sid=6013cd42365df6a37e829be5a63741ef) is the only place where I could find the reference again. Here's the post in question:

yeah in episode 23' armisael merges with unit 00 and turns into a GNR before exploding. I'm not even going to try and figure that one out either. the commentary in the platinum books just says that they do this just because it also happens in EoE and it just sets the groundwork for EoE. I just think it's the angel's ability to kinda absorb and join with it's target.