Response to Teen Titans Criticism

[John]

I recieved this message by personal e-mail and wanted to share it, in case anyone wanted to discuss.

I read your artical on the TT rip-off. I agree that it is just borrowing a popular "style of the day." However, as an artist myself I have noticed that the more classic what I would deem "american" or less arrogently put "western" style animation. Which is heavy on technique, expression, and detail.As well my favorite painting backgrounds (which is what I do). I have done some professional work but since the grunt work is now done in Korea etc (for $$ reasons). American trained animators like me have very little work to pick from if your not writing that they are willing to pay us for. I don't necessarly think Anime is bad. As a matter of fact I really like a few here and there. However, in the matters of techique and style I think we win out hands down. A old friend of mine used to work for Nick back 8 or 9 years ago and I recall some really great stuff was coming out of there studios.

These days, its almost offensive what's coming out of CN and MTV, especally Disney which I have done some work for in the past. Personally I have watched some of the popular animated shows like Family guy, Futurama, etc. I was not very impressed. I suppose that is why I have become such an anime junky lately.

Good luck.
KB-Departments of the arts SIUC

[SeannyB]

>> However, in the matters of techique and style I think we win out hands down.

apparently he has not watched much anime :P
Unless he can point out the American feature that defeats recent Production IG features in their eye-poppingly precise character and mechanical animations, or Dead Leaves in its incredibly mad stylings... I'll have to say that Japan is really the only place where cel animation actually progresses and evolves. American animation can 'bounce and stretch' at 24fps all it wants, but I don't think the technique has really gone anywhere since the classic Disney shorts.

[Dessa]

Umm... Japan doesn't do much cel animation anymore... NO ONE does real cel animation anymore.

Now, I do have to point out a few things. Yes, there are some Japanese studios who do high quality work. Production IG and Ghibli stand out to me. And yeah, there's a lot of crap coming out of the US for Saturday mornings. However, if you actually break it down, Japan takes a LOT of shortcuts that good American animators would never dream of doing. If I had've taken those short cuts in my animation classes, I think Tony would've booted me from the class. Japan uses a lot of pans, and doesn't do very much secondary animation, among many other cheats and shortcuts.

Am I saying US animation is better? Well, if you look at stuff that actually looks like an effort was put behind it, quality-wise, it's a little better. However, the average fair of both are about the same. But quality of animation alone does not make a show worth watching. Japan has the better storytelling and character development, which is why I watch anime.


Oh, and it's "squash and stretch", not "bounce and stretch".

[Hexon.Arq]

Since I have no real expertise in this field, I'll simply say that for the most part I see Japanese animation as being more picturesque than anything produced for American television, while American animation is by far more... animated. The exception, however, is modern American television animation; my comparison is based more on memory than present observation. Between the split-framerate jerkiness and lack of overall movement in Japanese animation, and the erratic over-expressiveness and seeming lack of fidelity in the American animation that I remember, I can't pick a clear winner. What I've seen of America's attempts at emulating traditionally Japanese technique, but with opaque, blocky backdrops and clumsy framedrops, just loses, IMO.

[SeannyB]

>> Umm... Japan doesn't do much cel animation anymore... NO ONE does real cel animation anymore.

I know that. I still use the phrase out of habit for some reason.

>> Oh, and it's "squash and stretch", not "bounce and stretch".

also my bad. It's been a while since anim 101 and I hate that squash & stretch sh-- with a vengence.

>> Japan uses a lot of pans, and doesn't do very much secondary animation, among many other cheats and shortcuts.

Mostly for fast-made TV animation though. In the original reply the dude states "its almost offensive what's coming out of CN and MTV, especally Disney", so I took that as my cue to exclude TV animation and things made on the cheap as they hardly make for showcases of animation talent. Still very few Japanese features actually have the production budget to afford silky smooth, highly elaborate animation all the time (there will always be a still frame or pan over a static scene somewhere) so I don't think it's really valid to say that Japanese animators are less advanced and skilled on the basis of American features simply having 5x the production value and staff. Especially if you look at Mamoru Oshii's movies for example (GitS, Patalbor, etc.) which employ still shots and pans all the time, despite being well-budgeted productions. It's actually part of his style that carries over to his live-action features, so the fact that characters aren't waving their arms around all the damn time as if they have some crazy motor control disease is sometimes a stylistic decision. Also the fact that Japanese people simply don't make broad hand gestures when they talk IRL unlike we do. -- but I digress...

I actually like the Japanese style of spending the most time and using the most skilled animators only in the parts where it actually matters, instead of the American style which carries the same uniform, highly uncharacteristic blandness throughout every scene so that nothing about it is really exciting. I dislike the recent Studio Ghibli animation for that same uniform blandness... their animation has been stagnating in that way. I've always felt that part of Ghibli's acceptance in the US has been because of it's partial resemblence to American-styled animation in terms of maintaining a high uniformity of style as opposed to having lots of individualistic animation.

If you told Disney (before they closed their major 2D anim studios) to make Ghost in the Shell or Dead Leaves or something, and Production-I.G. to make The Lion King using the same number of staff in the same constraints of time... I'd put my money on I.G. producing the more compitent result.

[Ken-Ohki]

I'll say this, when the US wants to they can put out some amazing animation. Check out Tarzan and The Lion King, those for animation quality alone are second to none. The problem is when people try saying which is better, in which case it comes down to style and opinion.

There is of course a huge difference in The Lion King for a production cost of $60,000,000 and Ghost in the Shell for $6,000,000. I bet if a Japanese animation theater company wants to lay down $60,000,000 for a film they'll screw us over pretty far.

[Matsu'o Tsurayaba]

There is no doubt that the quality of American animation has fallen a great deal,and only a few shows can match quality with what has been produced in the past.I dont think its the "style of the day" but a current theme.Im not sure if more people are watching more anime and regular US animation,or studios putting anime like themes for a new generation of children.

There is no doubt that Teen Titans was good artwork,and people are upset that Cartoon Network is pulling the plug on the show,dispite a stable audience.I made a thread about that,click here (http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=184320).There is no doubt that good quality shows are hard to come by,and i dont remember Disney making much hand drawn movies anymore,its all computer graphics.I miss the days when we could go to the theater and watch a good cartoon movie,like The Lion King,as mentioned before.

In the end,it all comes down to money,be that a good or bad thing.

[Gannon]

instead of the American style which carries the same uniform, highly uncharacteristic blandness throughout every scene so that nothing about it is really exciting.

Um, anime does that too. If not all the time, certainly enough to where you shouldn't make it out to be a unique feature that's only found within american animation.

[tlsmith1963]

I think the only American animated series that has been able to do an anime style well is Avatar:The Last Airbender. If I hadn't known that this was an American series I would have thought it was Japanese. It doesn't just look like anime, it also has a storytelling style like anime. Don't get me wrong, I love Teen Titans. But TT is only like anime on the surface.

Tammy

[Soluzar]

The best of American animation is amazing. I'm referring to purely the quality of the animation, not to the stories, or the the shows when treated as a unit. However, there's an awful lot of animation on American TV that looks like it was draw by a retarded kid with 3 colored crayons.

American animators can do great work, but a lot of the rubbish that gets churned out by children's television studios does not reflect that.

[Ken-Ohki]

Just out of curiosity has anyone seen Crayon Shin-chan and Sazae-san? For animation quality I'd rather watch the Smurfs.

[SeannyB]

Just out of curiosity has anyone seen Crayon Shin-chan and Sazae-san? For animation quality I'd rather watch the Smurfs.yes, that's some hardcore cookie-cutter animation right there. I was blown away when I saw an ep of Sazaesan. They probably have an anim staff of like 5, and none of them have to be skilled. Shows like that are made for people who aren't really fans of animation. Then again The Simpsons and Family Guy and so on carry the same cookie-cutterness... just with tons of outsourced in-between drawings.Um, anime does that too. If not all the timeLike where? Otomo, Ghibli, and Satoshi Kon features are the only things that come to mind, excluding mass-production TV series that would never bother having good animation like Inuyasha. In a generic sense, it's cliche of an anime series to vary its animation quality from episode to episode and scene to scene, because they're saving their time and their most talented animators for the big fight scene or whatever. In a less generic sense there are series like Noein and The Hakkenden (for example) which swaps animators and animation directors all the time, and allows them free reign over the look of the show. It's really fascinating to see the style change every episode, or suddenly for a scene or two -- it's not something I can ever imagine an American production doing.

[BeyonderZ]

(-_-') it's one big joke.

[John]

Just out of curiosity has anyone seen Crayon Shin-chan and Sazae-san? For animation quality I'd rather watch the Smurfs.

Well, at least the Crayon Shin-chan movies have excellent animation.

[Ken-Ohki]

really? That's good to hear.

I hope I didn't sound annoying with my post, just trying to point out that not ALL anime is Production IG quality. Seems too many people forget that.

[SeannyB]

just trying to point out that not ALL anime is Production IG quality. Seems too many people forget that.obviously, but the original Ask John reply established that we're not talking about cheap mass-production television animation.

[Danju]

I'm surprised The Iron Giant hasn't popped up in this discussion. It's one of my favorite animated films of all time, and was executed brilliantly.

As far as the whole "American vs. Japanese animation" goes, it all really comes down to preference. It's true that alot of the cartoons I see on American telivision nowadays are crummy animations filled with crude humor, but saying that all Japanese animation is the opposite is ignorant. The way I look at it, there's no reason to have this argument period. I'm not going to watch one over the other simply because it's American or Japanese. I watch The Iron Giant just as often as Spirited Away. I really didn't address the issue of quality of the animation, but not being an expert or even coherent in the subject, I chose to stay out.

[Ken-Ohki]

obviously, but the original Ask John reply established that we're not talking about cheap mass-production television animation.


Ahhh, ic. I'll need to reread the article, thanks for pointing that out.

[Gannon]

Like where? Otomo, Ghibli, and Satoshi Kon features are the only things that come to mind, excluding mass-production TV series that would never bother having good animation like Inuyasha.

Wow, I won't even bother explaining this. You obviously have no idea what your talking about. Good animation is as much opinion as it is fact anyway.

As far as Inuyasha is concerned, I hope you don't mean "unique" when you say "good".

In a generic sense, it's cliche of an anime series to vary its animation quality from episode to episode and scene to scene, because they're saving their time and their most talented animators for the big fight scene or whatever. In a less generic sense there are series like Noein and The Hakkenden (for example) which swaps animators and animation directors all the time, and allows them free reign over the look of the show. It's really fascinating to see the style change every episode, or suddenly for a scene or two -- it's not something I can ever imagine an American production doing.

Now your passing off your taste as facts. Fascinating to who? What if the viewer wants to see some consistency? I'm sure there a people out there that don't think changing the style every now and again is necessarily a good thing. I for one don't think the animation is stunning when it only gets good "for the big fight scene or whatever", or to be a style that you may like for a certain number of episodes only to change to a style that you don't later on.

The impression I'm getting is that you like anime nomatter what. That's fine, just don't try to pass it off as anything more than that.

[Soluzar]

IAs far as the whole "American vs. Japanese animation" goes, it all really comes down to preference. It's true that alot of the cartoons I see on American telivision nowadays are crummy animations filled with crude humor, but saying that all Japanese animation is the opposite is ignorant.

It's not even down to preference, because they really aren't that different. There's been enough cross-pollination that there are Japanese styles which look American, and vice-versa. There are excellent examples of both. To say that you prefer the visual style of either country over the other is inexplicable to me. Now if you are going to talk about storytelling style rather than animation quality, then yeah, that's a preference issue, because there's a real difference in that field.

[tlsmith1963]

I'm surprised The Iron Giant hasn't popped up in this discussion. It's one of my favorite animated films of all time, and was executed brilliantly.

As far as the whole "American vs. Japanese animation" goes, it all really comes down to preference. It's true that alot of the cartoons I see on American telivision nowadays are crummy animations filled with crude humor, but saying that all Japanese animation is the opposite is ignorant. The way I look at it, there's no reason to have this argument period. I'm not going to watch one over the other simply because it's American or Japanese. I watch The Iron Giant just as often as Spirited Away. I really didn't address the issue of quality of the animation, but not being an expert or even coherent in the subject, I chose to stay out.

Good point. I just saw The Iron Giant the other night, & it definitely compares very well with anime. I just see too many series like Family Guy that don't look great to me. Yes it's personal preference, & others may feel differently. I just have bad memories of the lousy Saturday morning cartoons I saw as a kid in the late '60s & early '70s. I would see old Warner Bros. shorts & Popeye cartoons & wonder why the newer stuff didn't look as good. I guess I just prefer animation that doesn't look like a 5 year old drew it. Sorry if that offends anyone. Just my opinion.

Tammy

[Solid_Snake]

I hate this. Anime fans are the worst when it comes to this matter, something has Anime like animation. And they all go crazy and boycot it. Have they ever took the time to see if the show is good? Dont like it? The world still spins.

PS: I will ask this. Who came out with the first "Animation" show? (Japan, Korea, US? Honest question, as I do not really know)

[sfried]

Makes me wonder, what about the quality of animated shows in Europe. UK has Wallance & Gromitt, but that's stop motion. I heard nowdays the French are colaborating (once again) with the Japanese to produce more animated series like Oban (http://www.savtheworld.com/eng/oban.php3). It's pretty interesting considering that most Itallian and French works have a distict style that differs from that of our usual American animation (so yes, it would be arrogant to say Western when clearly more European works should be exposed to the American public).

[SeannyB]

[rant]yes, it is all IMO. Excuse me for not writing IMO ("in my opinion") after every line in every paragraph of my posts. I always figure that people would be good enough to assume those in anything that discusses style versus style, as you can hardly talk about that in a factual way. I would like to see highly characteristic, individualistic animation. I love seeing shows experiment in style at the cost of mere consistancy. It makes me realize that animation is created by humans after all, and not robots like the US output would have me believe! I'm very sure the mainstream prefers the bland uniformity (see: ghibli) that I dislike. I have no illusions about that.

IMO the problem with bland uniformity is it does not really breed good animation talent or progressions in technique. (Even Otomo has mentioned (http://www.avclub.com/content/node/24898/1/1) how there's not a lot of animation talent coming out of Ghibli.) IMO that's partly why american 2D animation has stagnated so much because they value sameness. If they gave more freedom to commercial animators, I'm sure we'd see a lot more interesting output from the US. Unless your idea of interesting is "the same thing, in the same way, over and over again".

And I know you're like "but Sean, isn't the vast majority of Japanese animation also total crap?" and I would totally agree. But show me the American Mind Game (http://www.mindgame.jp/), show me the space that the American industry has for non-mainstream commercial animation, show me where the incredibly mind-blowingly hot never-seen-that-sh*t-before animation is and then I'll be impressed, you know. Where did Quentin Tarantino go to make his massively stylized animated scene for Kill Bill? There has been interesting American commercial productions in the past like The Maxx and 1001 Nights which experimented in their mediums, but those are soooo few and sooo far between that you could almost call them flukes.

As much as I don't like Teen Titans and so on, I actually hope the invasion of Japanese animation into our television sets paves the way for a more diverse 2D animation industry in the US. I hope shows like Samurai Champloo, Paranoia Agent, and FLCL actually make that kind of impact eventually.

[Soluzar]

yes, it is all IMO. Excuse me for not writing IMO ("in my opinion") after every line in every paragraph of my posts. I always figure that people would be good enough to assume those in anything that discusses style versus style, as you can hardly talk about that in a factual way.

See, I don't need to worry about that, because I have my signature. I can always point to it as a last resort if anyone accuses me of passing off my opinion as fact. Har-har! No I didn't.

[Gannon]

I love seeing shows experiment in style at the cost of mere consistancy.

Really? Because I love to see shows that are good.

It makes me realize that animation is created by humans after all, and not robotslike the US output would have me believe!

Yes! It's one big conspiracy! Now you know the truth!


I'm very sure the mainstream prefers the bland uniformity (see: ghibli) that I dislike. I have no illusions about that.

Ghibli and american animation the only ones guilty of uniformity? Lol, I think I'll use an old quote from you on this one: "Well it's obvious this person hasn't seen much anime!"



The problem with bland uniformity is it does not really breed good animation talent or progressions in technique.

Also it's a problem that people think uniformity is all it takes to have a good show. Hm, I've always wondered why people would like something just because it was anime. Now I know why. Thank you.

Unless your idea of interesting is "the same thing, in the same way, over and over again".

No, my idea of interesting is an "a good show, a better show, or an even better show" ;).

But show me the American Mind Game (http://www.mindgame.jp/), show me the space that the American industry has for non-mainstream commercial animation, show me where the incredibly mind-blowingly hot never-seen-that-sh*t-before animation is and then I'll be impressed, you know.

And what would be the point of that? As long as it's american, your gonna knock it regardless. I'm not going to waste my time convincing someone whose biased.

Where did Quentin Tarantino go to make his massively stylized animated scene for Kill Bill?

LMAO! Too funny. Obviously, it fit into what Tarantino was trying to convey. You make it sound like he had the animators from Rugrats originally scheduled but changed his mind at the last minute.

There has been interesting American commercial productions in the past like The Maxx and 1001 Nights which experimented in their mediums, but those are soooo few and sooo far between that you could almost call them flukes.

Oh, I see. So the american productions that you DO like are close to being flukes. Makes sense.

I actually hope the invasion of Japanese animation into our television sets paves the way for a more diverse 2D animation industry in the US.

Diverse how? All that would do is provoke more US animation to input "style" that you DON'T like. It's a catch 22.

Besides, even if that happened, US animation would be worse than it is now.

I hope shows like Samurai Champloo, Paranoia Agent, and FLCL actually make that kind of impact eventually.

Hopefully not.

[Baka Deshi]

A little bitter?

[SeannyB]

oh yay, someone who counters quoted snippets with empty one-liners instead of forming a coherent argument. This means I have to reply in a similar format:

>> Really? Because I love to see shows that are good.
-- Me too.

-- yes, Tarantino went to I.G. because American animation studios are seemingly _not_ capable of producing any type of animation that conveys anything other than cartoon comedy and the occasional "saturday morning"-type material.

-- Mind Game is not a fluke, it's a well-funded high quality feature film that is not some lame franchise film or a cartoon comedy. Japan has produced many of these serious animated features in the past, and will continue to produce them in the future. How many has American studios produced in the past 5 years? Zero?

>> Diverse how?
-- Stylistically, even thematically. Again excluding cookie-cutter TV animation, the American output of commercial 2D animation for the last decade has been largely one style: squash & stretch cartoon comedies, whereas in the Japanese animation industry you have animation styles ranging from highly realist (Jin Roh, Innocence) to um, bizarre (Windy Tales, Noein, Trava, etc.)

>> As long as it's american, your gonna knock it regardless.
-- I've already cited 1001 Nights and The Maxx, and only because the animation was interesting (I like them as a whole too). I could name some more stuff, but who cares. You're under the impression that I'm simply auto-justifying some sort of Japanophile fanboyism, but I'm not. I think you have to be blind not to see the huge differences between American animation and Japanese animation, even in the most general senses.

IMO (or from my observation..) American animation values consistancy of animation quality in every scene, and adheres mostly to animation styles created in 1930 (not in design but as in technique). Japanese animation often varies its animation quality from scene to scene or ep to ep, and employs several different styles (animation styles, not BESM design) sometimes all in a single production or even scene-to-scene.

I simply prefer the latter. I think change is interesting. I like to be presented with new things rather than dulled by familiarity and sameness. That's all there is to my preference.

I also firmly believe that it breeds diversity. You have animators like Okiura, Yuasa, Imaishi, Koike, Koji Morimoto... all with massively different and highly characteristic animation (not simply design) styles -- their approach to timing and movement is extremely different. There's just no diversity like that in American animation. Everything feels like it's been animated by Disneybots and not humans like I was saying. This ties in to the original Ask John reply at the very top of the thread. The American 2D animation industry only seems like it's capable of doing one thing in one way -- to me that's the exact opposite of capability and skill. It's a lack of technique and style there.

[Soluzar]

LMAO! Too funny. Obviously, it fit into what Tarantino was trying to convey. You make it sound like he had the animators from Rugrats originally scheduled but changed his mind at the last minute.

God help us, Gannon, you know perfectly well Clasky-Csupo are the worst kind of hacks working in the business right now. At least have the decency to cite someone like Pixar when you want to cite decent Western animation.

[Gannon]

-- yes, Tarantino went to I.G. because American animation studios are seemingly _not_ capable of producing any type of animation that conveys anything other than cartoon comedy and the occasional "saturday morning"-type material.

Opinion.

-- Mind Game is not a fluke, it's a well-funded high quality feature film that is not some lame franchise film or a cartoon comedy. Japan has produced many of these serious animated features in the past, and will continue to produce them in the future. How many has American studios produced in the past 5 years? Zero?

Of course Japan takes their animation more seriously. No one is arguing that. But if americans overall took animation in general as well as their own animation more seriously, then american work would be AT LEAST as good as anime.

Stylistically, even thematically. Again excluding cookie-cutter TV animation, the American output of commercial 2D animation for the last decade has been largely one style: squash & stretch cartoon comedies, whereas in the Japanese animation industry you have animation styles ranging from highly realist (Jin Roh, Innocence) to um, bizarre (Windy Tales, Noein, Trava, etc.)

Different resume, same job. There are PLENTY of american cartoons that have different styles show to show. The problem is you only notice the style changes in anime. On the other hand, there are tons of anime that are guilty of similar styles.

I think change is interesting. I like to be presented with new things rather than dulled by familiar things. That's all there is to my preference.

Yeah your right. There's nothing familar about characters living all by themselves. Or transforming when (Insert event here) happens. Or the "always want to do their best" characters. The love triangles. The harems --God knows you won't find anything familar watching that. Nothing familar about any of those things. We all KNOW that "nothing is new under the sun" but SOMEHOW anime presents you with new things. Interesting.

Or how about this: You just don't consider seeing the same things in anime dull. It's much easier if you just say that and stop harping on the idea that american animation uses the same footage over and over again 99 percent of the time and anime is only guilty of it when Ghibli is involved.

I also firmly believe that it breeds diversity. You have animators like Okiura, Yuasa, Imaishi, Koike, Koji Morimoto... all with massively different and highly characteristic animation (not simply design) styles -- their approach to timing and movement is extremely different. There's just no diversity like that in American animation.

Of course there is. But in the end, we see what we want to see.

Everything feels like it's been animated by Disneybots and not humans like I was saying. This ties in to the original Ask John reply at the very top of the thread. The American 2D animation industry only seems like it's capable of doing one thing in one way -- to me that's the exact opposite of capability and skill.

And the fact that people individualize everything Japan does in animation, then turns around and groups everything america does, is what makes that argument feasible in the first place.

[SeannyB]

Opinion.yes, not being Quentin Tarantino himself I can only hazard a guess. But even you laughed at the idea of Tarantino contacting Klasky Csupo to do his animated segment, thus my point was still made.There's nothing familar about characters living all by themselves. Or transforming when (Insert event here) happens. Or the "always want to do their best" characters. The love triangles. The harems --God knows you won't find anything familar watching that. Nothing familar about any of those things. We all KNOW that "nothing is new under the sun" but SOMEHOW anime presents you with new things. Interesting.
dude, for one thing I was talking about animation and not the thematic/writing content. Anime has more variation of animation than American productions. That's in my opinion (oh noes!)

And for another thing, all the productions I've named don't contain any of those cliches, nor are they 'genre' productions. Genre productions tend not to be interesting to me. And I'm well aware that most anime are 'genre' works -- that I will not deny. But even then, at least there are more than 3 genres unlike American animation (those 3 genres being cartoon comedy, sat.morning/adventure, and 'educational' if that even counts). And at least there is also space for alternative non-genre works too, where there is next to none in American animation.

And for god's sakes this is the 3rd time I have to reiterate this: I'm well aware that there are many anime productions outside of Ghibli that carries uniformity of style and quality from scene to scene or ep to ep. But as a broad generalization for the output of the entire 'anime' industry, quality often changes a lot from scene to scene and ep to ep. Surely you have noticed this. Sometimes animation styles will change in the same fashion, and in the most extreme examples, animation directors and animators will be given lots of freedom to even interpret the character designs however they choose (Hakkenden as the most extreme example I can think of).

Please, tell me where this happens in American animation. What are these mysterious American productions that carry the qualities I'm looking for that you keep assuring me exists somewhere? Where are these alternative/niche commercial productions? You're providing absolutely no tangible counter-argument aside from "no ur wrong lolol!" every time and I can't do anything but reiterate my points under the context of your various nitpicks.

In essense: do you actually have any insights on the topic or are you just trolling?

[Gannon]

Me? Troll? No, it's never that serious. And no I wasn't saying "no your wrong lolol!", just felt the need to enlighten you at the points in which I felt you were turning fanboy.

But in MY opinion, anime doesn't hit you with new styles and quality as often as you feel that they do. I'm not arguing that in the general sense anime has great style and quality, but I feel that has more to do with japanese culture taking animation more seriously then americans do, not because they are that much better. In most cases in american animation, the consensus is that style isn't that important, it doesn't make or break the final transfer the way an anime does. American animation isn't going to go all out to make their show stylistically unique if it's not going to encourage people to see it. No one is going to change something that they feel doesn't matter. Therefore american animation is going to end up looking more cookie-cutter, or giving a poor interpretation of a style that's not their own. If that mentality ever changes, I'm willing to bet you'd see more style and higher quality in american animation. Simply being influenced by anime won't change anything, it's america's perception of animation that needs influence. So although I agree that anime may very well have this one in the bag alot of the time, I disagree with your reasoning as to why that's true.

[Soluzar]

Me? Troll? No, it's never that serious. And no I wasn't saying "no your wrong lolol!", just felt the need to enlighten you at the points in which I felt you were turning fanboy.

But in MY opinion, anime doesn't hit you with new styles and quality as often as you feel that they do. I'm not arguing that in the general sense anime has great style and quality, but I feel that has more to do with japanese culture taking animation more seriously then americans do, not because they are that much better. In most cases in american animation, the consensus is that style isn't that important, it doesn't make or break the final transfer the way an anime does. American animation isn't going to go all out to make their show stylistically unique if it's not going to encourage people to see it. No one is going to change something that they feel doesn't matter. Therefore american animation is going to end up looking more cookie-cutter, or giving a poor interpretation of a style that's not their own. If that mentality ever changes, I'm willing to bet you'd see more style and higher quality in american animation. Simply being influenced by anime won't change anything, it's america's perception of animation that needs influence. So although I agree that anime may very well have this one in the bag alot of the time, I disagree with your reasoning as to why that's true.


I'm with Gannon. The animation is often average to boring in anime. What makes anime interesting is that because the Japanese consider animation to be a valid genre for any kind of a story, they will treat it like any other entertainment media - they will take it seriously.

American animation studios still don't seem to have got the idea that you can do drama without comedy in animation, or other genres.

[Ketaru]

I'm with Gannon. The animation is often average to boring in anime. What makes anime interesting is that because the Japanese consider animation to be a valid genre for any kind of a story, they will treat it like any other entertainment media - they will take it seriously.

American animation studios still don't seem to have got the idea that you can do drama without comedy in animation, or other genres.

Speaking of which, anybody else think Teen Titans would've been better if they had remained more faithful to the comic? I didn't really like the show at all because it was so...warped? I don't know. But I read the comics on a reccomendation and I happen to think they are really good (when I say comics, I mean the one that strives for a realistic look, not the one based on the show that looks all super deformed). The only real problem is that it is so integrated into a lot of the DC comics continuity it is sometimes confusing for people like me that have never really read anything before it.

But it's not just the animation studios that are the cause for the primarily comedy based shows. Keep in mind that humorous cartoons are often the most celebrated in America (Simpsons, Family Guy, etc.) and serious cartoons aren't often well recognized by the general public.

And yeah, the more I look at anime, the less fascinating it gets and the more boring the animation looks >.>

[SeannyB]

Simply being influenced by anime won't change anything, it's america's perception of animation that needs influence.That's what I was talking about. The _last_ thing I want to see is the same American cartoons with anime-esque designs (teen titans). I want more variety and experimentation in commercial productions. Japan is able to do this often, and I hope the influx of anime eventually promotes interest in this kind of thing if anything.

[Mithrandir1818]

PS: I will ask this. Who came out with the first "Animation" show? (Japan, Korea, US? Honest question, as I do not really know)


Gertie the Dinosaur, was done by Windsor McKay in 1914. There might have been one or two things before that, but this is usually cited as the first.

Oh, and he was American. Pretty much all the major starts and 'firsts' in animation were done in America, though there was some more experimental stuff going on in Europe. I'm not exactly sure when Japan got into the scene, but it was much later than the US.

Yay for History of Animation Class!

[SeannyB]

I think Gertie was the "first" animation that was commercially successful and popular. Even McCay has made animations years before Gertie, and there have been other animators before McCay. Usually firsts aren't interesting anyway. I think some chalkboard animation might've been the first (??)

I think some flick called Kujira (whale) around the late 20's was the first Japanese animation (??). After that animation was used by the military/government in propaganda films. I don't think the 'industry' really developed until Tezuka's studio.

[shugo87]

is whoever wrote that foreal?

[majin psyduck]

All western animation is done in a Korean sweatshop run by Kim Jun Il's long lost dissident brother. Let no one else tell you otherwise.

[Shinjuku]

-- yes, Tarantino went to I.G. because American animation studios are seemingly _not_ capable of producing any type of animation that conveys anything other than cartoon comedy and the occasional "saturday morning"-type material.

I don't think Tatantino considered Japanese vs American anime studios. In fact I don't think he came out and said I want an anime sequence, who's gonna do it. I think he just saw I.G.s work and got an idea of how he could incorporate that specific studio's style into his movie. So the most likely reason is that he's a fan of the studio's work and no othere studio gets as much attention among the indie crowd as Production I.G. titles. My point being is that if I.G. didn't exist there probably wouldn't have been an animated sequence, so he wasn't targeting anime studios in general but this particular anime studio.

From what I have read on I.G.'s site he just walked into the place without an appointment and badgered them into working with him. He's very convincing.

[Tidusauron12]

I don't think Tatantino considered Japanese vs American anime studios. In fact I don't think he came out and said I want an anime sequence, who's gonna do it. I think he just saw I.G.s work and got an idea of how he could incorporate that specific studio's style into his movie. So the most likely reason is that he's a fan of the studio's work and no othere studio gets as much attention among the indie crowd as Production I.G. titles. My point being is that if I.G. didn't exist there probably wouldn't have been an animated sequence, so he wasn't targeting anime studios in general but this particular anime studio.

From what I have read on I.G.'s site he just walked into the place without an appointment and badgered them into working with him. He's very convincing.

Hey Shinjuku ^

Man, I posted this giant wall of words... and it all got deleted somehow... dammit... I think I screwed up somehow... man...

[sfried]

Sorry for reviving this very old thread.

But I have just one question:

Why does everyone equate Western with "American" animation?

What happened to Europe animation? What happened to France? Are American anime fans completely ign orant of what the rest of the Western world is doing, or have they arrogantly proclaimed themselves as the Western world?

And from what I've seen so far, European animation does seem more intelligent, if not vastly superior to American animation.

[Crawlspace]

Sorry for reviving this very old thread.

But I have just one question:

Why does everyone equate Western with "American" animation?

What happened to Europe animation? What happened to France? Are American anime fans completely ign orant of what the rest of the Western world is doing, or have they arrogantly proclaimed themselves as the Western world?

Most of the people on the board are from North America. When we say the west, we're refering primarily to ourselves as a whole, as that's the only other animation we have any experience with. American companies don't import all that much animation other than what Japan offers, so the vast majority of us actually have no idea what's going on in Europe. Of course, if what they are importing is from Europe and I just don't know it, then I have to say the current offerings aren't standing out in any way.

[Suiko Eiji]

Of course, if what they are importing is from Europe and I just don't know it, then I have to say the current offerings aren't standing out in any way.

In the past number of years I have seen an increase in the number of French imports such as Totally Spies, Code Lyoko and Oban Star Racers (which was a Franco-Japanese co-production). To be honest, I'm not surprised or enthused about what I've seen from France. All of the animation I saw broadcast in the UK and Germany were either American or Japanese dubs, though I'll admit I did not watch a whole lot of TV in the UK except for BBC and SKY News in the morning and Channel 4 before I went to bed.

Are there animators from the whole of Europe making artistically acclaimed animation? Probably; I would be more surprised if they weren't. What I've seen so far, goes for Totally Spies and Code Lyoko in that they mimic the stereotypical Japanese animation styles and they are about as superficial and/or entertaining as thier American counterparts.

[Dessa]

Are there animators from the whole of Europe making artistically acclaimed animation? Probably; I would be more surprised if they weren't. What I've seen so far, goes for Totally Spies and Code Lyoko in that they mimic the stereotypical Japanese animation styles and they are about as superficial and/or entertaining as thier American counterparts.

I feel obligated to point out Tony White (http://www.tonywhite.net/) (that's his personal website). And yes, he's the Tony I mentioned way back in the 3rd post as being my animation instructor.

[Suiko Eiji]

I feel obligated to point out Tony White (http://www.tonywhite.net/) (that's his personal website). And yes, he's the Tony I mentioned way back in the 3rd post as being my animation instructor.

I read through all of his resume pages. This is the only part that was remotely familiar:

Whilst acting as Head of Design at Halas & Bachelor on the highly successful JACKSON FIVE TV series, I moved on to work for internationally acclaimed director Richard Williams (Who Framed Roger Rabbit). Trained personally by Williams for two years (and working on the Academy Award winning animated 'Special' A CHRISTMAS CAROL), I went on to independently create many of the highly successful productions that the studio was known for (including the D&AD award-winning titles for 'THE PINK PANTHER STRIKES AGAIN'). Whilst at the studio, I studied intensely with the two legendary 'grand masters' of Warner Brothers and Disney animation....the late, great Ken Harris (Bugs Bunny & Roadrunner) and Art Babbit (Pinnochio, Fantasia, etc.). This for me was a unique and unforgettable experience.

I've seen Who Framed Roger Rabbit numerous times, as well as watching Bugs, Roadrunner, Pinnochio, and Fantasia throughout childhood; I've seen Jackson Five and Pink Panther Strikes Again both in passing.

I'm sure he is an incredibly skilled animator; however, from the portion of his resume that I am familiar with, nothing stands out immediately as separating 'European' and 'American' animation technique.

[Victory]

Are American anime fans completely ign orant of what the rest of the Western world is doing, or have they arrogantly proclaimed themselves as the Western world?there's a reason why they call it america and not the U.S. or whatever

In this case though I've got to admit I don't know of any european series that appeal to me... I think that, like here, they lack the otaku population and dirt-cheap production costs needed to make non-kiddie shows work

Hell one of the things I was jealous growing up is that they showed different anime there... for example France had club dorothée

p.s. Animation here is a fricking joke. They air OLD but I mean oooold stuff.
Radio-Canada airs captain harlock (albator in french), the 70's spider-man cartoon, care-bears... Beetlejuice and the Ghost busters cartoon showed on another channel this week. Reboot is NOT nostalgic because it stills runs... or ran? I forget. Live action movies aren't that better off, dubbed version of movies that nobody wanted when they came out 15 years ago air regularly too... Yeah I hate TV

[Crawlspace]

In the past number of years I have seen an increase in the number of French imports such as Totally Spies...
I vaguely remember reading that this had something to do with the French. Surprised me, because the animation reminded me of Sabrina the Teenage Witch (though that might not have been an American production for all I know). I've never really watched it, because the dialog is like nails on a chalkboard, but the what I saw in passing didn't distinguish it at all from what's going on in typical American animation. That's the only one I'm familiar with, though.

[Ken-Ohki]

Hmm, I missed this thread somehow last week. I've said it before and I'll say it again. There is no animated movie on earth better then The Lion King. When Disney puts their mind to it they pounce the competition. However mainstream made for TV animation seems to be going down a lot lately. Especially late night "adult" shows.

[sfried]

I'm sure he is an incredibly skilled animator; however, from the portion of his resume that I am familiar with, nothing stands out immediately as separating 'European' and 'American' animation technique.

Has anybody here at least watched The Tripletes of (http://www.sonyclassics.com/triplets/) Belleville (http://www.apple.com/trailers/sony/thetripletsofbellville.html) (Note: be sure to watch all of the trailer)? That's what I meant by "French animation".

And while Totaly Spies and that other show are French, they are outscourced from the US. Oban, on the other hand, is a true Franco-Japan production, similar to Ulesseys 31/Interstella 5554/Mysterious Cities of Gold.

Most of the people on the board are from North America. When we say the west, we're refering primarily to ourselves as a whole, as that's the only other animation we have any experience with. American companies don't import all that much animation other than what Japan offers, so the vast majority of us actually have no idea what's going on in Europe. Of course, if what they are importing is from Europe and I just don't know it, then I have to say the current offerings aren't standing out in any way.
I don't think it's fair for the Americans to be speaking on behalf of French, German, and Italian animation. That would be very arrogant of Americans to do so.

[Crawlspace]

I don't think it's fair for the Americans to be speaking on behalf of French, German, and Italian animation. That would be very arrogant of Americans to do so.
We're not. We're refering to our section of the west. As you said, very few people have any idea what's going on with European animation because very little of it is imported. It's the same with all forms of entertainment. Ask any American to name a German band or a French movie, and most of them will give you a blank stare. The stuff just doesn't get wide exposure here.

[Matsu'o Tsurayaba]

There is a thread on my own forum about this topic.Teen Titans uses alot of anime themes,like the anime fall,teardrop and stressmark.It also speaks of how for the most part,Americans cant do animation anymore.

American Cartoons from the 1990`s like X-Men,Spider-Man and Batman were all done by Japanese/Korean studios.If you dont belive me,watch their ending credits,there are korean names where the animation credit is due.

As for the French,ive seen some of their work.Its similar to the Japanese,but when you put down all the pros and cons,the Japanese are still best,even though the Americans were the first.

[Crawlspace]

American Cartoons from the 1990`s like X-Men,Spider-Man and Batman were all done by Japanese/Korean studios.If you dont belive me,watch their ending credits,there are korean names where the animation credit is due.

This is nothing new. It's simply cheap outsourcing to get the work done. The style, however, is purely a product of the country in which it was created. The Koreans are only copying the designs given to them by the creators. The style of those shows, the themes, scripts, and everything else associated with them is noticably American. I'm not sure if the Japanese outsource their animation, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did. That wouldn't make it any less Japanese.

[Magami No ER]

It was sometimes noticable when it came to quality, as per the case with Nadia, which was outsourced to Korea for a short while.
But that's the only example I've noticed/heard of myself.

[SeannyB]

There are also examples of the opposite -- America outsourcing production to Japan for instance and getting a far, far superior product than anything they could've produced domestically. See the Batman:TAS episode "Feat of Clay, Part 2" which was outsourced to AIC... the animation in that episode is absolutely eye-popping and is by far the best-animated episode of that show.

I've slowly come to realize that anything that ever looked incredible in "american" TV animation was actually produced by Japanese studios.

[sfried]

We're not. We're refering to our section of the west. As you said, very few people have any idea what's going on with European animation because very little of it is imported. It's the same with all forms of entertainment. Ask any American to name a German band or a French movie, and most of them will give you a blank stare. The stuff just doesn't get wide exposure here.
Then shouldn't you be reffering it as "American animation" instead of "Western"? Western is a loaded term, and that means Europe America, and even parts of Asia COMBINED. To describe Western animation as being only American is a bit off, if not a whole lot.

[Gannon]

There are also examples of the opposite -- America outsourcing production to Japan for instance and getting a far, far superior product than anything they could've produced domestically. See the Batman:TAS episode "Feat of Clay, Part 2" which was outsourced to AIC... the animation in that episode is absolutely eye-popping and is by far the best-animated episode of that show.

Well that's an interesting opinion, but can you prove that? No one has seen what it would've looked like if it were produced domestically so how can you say for sure that it would've been worse?

I've slowly come to realize that anything that ever looked incredible in "american" TV animation was actually produced by Japanese studios.

:rolleyes: Yeah and if Japan sent something to another region to be animated you wouldn't say it was any less "Japanese".

I just love the logic on this issue. So if I walk into a store and pick up an item, whatever culture the majority of the factory workers belonged to is who gets to claim it?

I think your on to something here: Let's all just forget about the people who are really responsible for why the program exists in the first place and give the workers all the credit. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Animematt55]

well, i am jumping in kinda late but....
Ok, look at some of the crap on TV today..
Squidbillies...12 oz mouse....heck even Family guy...all horrible animation, especially the first two.
Like it has been mentioned, Disney has a TON more money to put out on one animated movie. THen a good anime movie, GitS in this case, which i think had perfectly fine animation for its time, gets a lot less.

[Crawlspace]

Like it has been mentioned, Disney has a TON more money to put out on one animated movie. THen a good anime movie, GitS in this case, which i think had perfectly fine animation for its time, gets a lot less.
That's actually an interesting point. I can't remember the exact numbers anymore, but the production budget and production time for a typical Disney flick and Spirited Away were compared. SA was on par with Disney features, but IRC, it cost far less and was produced much quicker than the average Disney film. Of course the average anime movie won't turn out this well, as they're usually based on tv shows, to tie in with those tv shows, and have the budgets to prove it. But the bigger movies, like Kon's work or GitS, come out closer to what we'd expect from a large studio here.

[SeannyB]

Well that's an interesting opinion, but can you prove that? No one has seen what it would've looked like if it were produced domestically so how can you say for sure that it would've been worse?damn, actually I thought some of the show was produced domestically, but now that I look it up all the other eps were produced at a variety of Korean studios and a few at Sunrise.Yeah and if Japan sent something to another region to be animated you wouldn't say it was any less "Japanese".It would be. In any TV anime a few of the episodes (or sometimes, almost all episodes) will be animated by Korean studios and the difference is always obvious. Of course I'd credit Japan with writing/direction just as I'd credit the American creative staff for writing/directing Feat of Clay pt.2. But the animation production must be credited to the animators who animated the damn thing too. Animation is not machine-made. If the animation in a certain episode is appalling or eye-popping, then you have to attribute that to the animators and not the writing/directing/creative staff overseas, so I don't really know what you're getting at here.

As far as Batman:TAS is concerned, I see it as one of the few attempts American attempts to move television animation into slightly different territory and for that reason I hold a lot of respect for it.
Kon's work or GitS, come out closer to what we'd expect from a large studio here.vaguely.. as far as I've read, Kon's new flick Paprika was produced on the mega-cheap just like Tokyo Godfathers. Paprika's a fun flick though, I caught it at the Chicago film fest last week. Good popcorn sci-fi.

Ask John has an article concerning production costs: http://animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=1121

[Mr. sickVisionz]

Stylewise, I think its a toss up. But on more technical things, i'd have to agree with what that guy said. US wins. Alot of anime, its like they don't draw out the animations (ie movements of a character) all the way. Its like they skip frames and it looks kinda jerky.

Like when you watch an american cartoon, the way people move is very smooth, but on some anime (even high quality stuff like FMA, GiTS:SAC) its like they spent too much time doing stylish stuff that they had to wax over something basic like smooth animations.

They don't do it for fight sequences, but then again i've heard that fight sequences cost way more for an anime company to do than regular scenes. Maybe this is when they draw all those little extra transition/movement animations that they usually skip over.

[Gannon]

It would be. In any TV anime a few of the episodes (or sometimes, almost all episodes) will be animated by Korean studios and the difference is always obvious. Of course I'd credit Japan with writing/direction just as I'd credit the American creative staff for writing/directing Feat of Clay pt.2. But the animation production must be credited to the animators who animated the damn thing too. Animation is not machine-made. If the animation in a certain episode is appalling or eye-popping, then you have to attribute that to the animators and not the writing/directing/creative staff overseas, so I don't really know what you're getting at here.


My point is, the field animators are just following the vision of the lead and key animators. So yeah, the animators deserve credit for doing their job, but not more than the one responsible laying out the blueprint for what is to be animated in the first place (Bruce Tim). Your speaking as if Americans directed and wrote for Batman:TAS, but when it came to the art, EVERY aspect of it was done overseas. That's simply not true. Batman: TAS was Bruce Tim at work, just because it was ANIMATED overseas doesn't make him any less credible.

Dragon Ball Z is Akira Toriyama's work right? Just because he had a team of animators, no one is going to think of anyone other than him as the guy behind it all. Shouldn't that work for Batman: TAS as well? I agree that the assistance internationally should be credited, but I still think it's wrong to look at Batman: TAS and think "Japanese" or "animated overseas". As far as the art is concerned, when I think of Batman: TAS I think Bruce Tim. Just like when you think of Dragon Ball Z you think Akira Toriyama.

[Animematt55]

one more point...I am sure a lot of people here like SOuth Park, and i am sure a lot of anime haters do too. That has HORRIBLE animation...especially at the start of the series, they wer elike paper cutouts...

[Levon]

one more point...I am sure a lot of people here like SOuth Park, and i am sure a lot of anime haters do too. That has HORRIBLE animation...especially at the start of the series, they wer elike paper cutouts...

Because they were paper cutouts....then they moved to computers. At the same time keeping the original designs. The animation is just fine & I love the way it looks, it just makes it more funny. Its the style, it wouldn't be South Park otherwise.

"produced using construction paper and traditional cut-out animation techniques. Current episodes duplicate the original, amateurish look using modern computer animation tools -first PowerAnimator, then Maya.
This allows for a short production schedule that enables the creators to respond quickly to current events. For instance, the December 17, 2003 episode ("It's Christmas in Canada") depicts the capture of Saddam Hussein a mere three days after his capture" - Wiki

[Animematt55]

Because they were paper cutouts....then they moved to computers. At the same time keeping the original designs. The animation is just fine & I love the way it looks, it just makes it more funny. Its the style, it wouldn't be South Park otherwise.
yeah, it is what makes in South Park. But it was basically in response to all the people that say they dont like anime because of the animation, when they watch poorly animated stuff like South Park, or some of the CN crap.

[Chousho]

Sorry for reviving this very old thread.

But I have just one question:

Why does everyone equate Western with "American" animation?

What happened to Europe animation? What happened to France? Are American anime fans completely ign orant of what the rest of the Western world is doing, or have they arrogantly proclaimed themselves as the Western world?

And from what I've seen so far, European animation does seem more intelligent, if not vastly superior to American animation.
Frick this was an old thread. I thought it was estabilished that if "Western" includes Europe, it must include Africa as well!

I think Western is used to refer to America from the standpoint of Europe when imigration was happening from the 16-1700's. The New World would have also been the Western World back then, I suppose? Bleh.


In regards to animation: Japan has good animation, America has good animation; Japan has bad animation, America has bad animation.

Anime = Animation as well, to those who say it is a seperate art. It is just as much an art as animation we do in this continent, nothing more, nothing less.

And to the people saying how much better anime is, you obviously have not watched enough (or the right) animations produced over here as well. Unless someone is able to watch 100% of the arts created past, present, future all over the world: You word is opinion, either seperate or including facts to back it up.

[Hexon.Arq]

yeah, it is what makes in South Park. But it was basically in response to all the people that say they dont like anime because of the animation, when they watch poorly animated stuff like South Park, or some of the CN crap.

That's a good point, but a key difference is that South Park's animation is well suited to its visual content. Some people I've talked to have noted that the sometimes choppy, sometimes underrepresented use of movement in Japanese animation is more disappointing than outright unappealing simply because the art itself is often impressive, and the end result sometimes feels lopsided and unfinished, especially with newer series. One of my cousins likened a shot of a character speaking to a well-painted portrait that someone cut the mouth out of and replaced with a moving flap; it can look downright silly if you aren't used to it.

[Ken-Ohki]

Maybe someone will correct me but didn't John say that America spends far more money on animation then Japan? I don't think the quality is worse, I think what the animators focus on is different and appears to be less quality and it's just a matter of perception.

Well I guess of course for a show like South Park and other adult shows (Aqua Teens, Sealab, Space Ghost) the quality IS worse, I don't think it's the norm for most shows.

Haven't watched any Disney TV cartoons in years though so I can't say much concerning them.

[Mr. sickVisionz]

You really shouldn't count anything on Adult Swim as being typical american animation. Part of the appeal of those shows is how poorly they are animated. LOL, like Tom Goes to the Mayor (which kicks *** by the way). I don't even think that show can be counted as animation on a technical level. The frame rate is like 30 frames a minute (not second).

[Victory]

In no case can you go "oh it's from the U.S. so it'll have more fluid animation". Well maybe before 1985-ish... but now? ho-ho.