Ask John Response from eXtasy Books

[John]

Extasy Books sent me the following polite response to my "Ask John" article Why Do Some Fans Think of Anime as an Art Style Instead of Japanese Animation? (http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=1211).

More of a reply, actually. I'm the Editor-in-Chief of eXtasy Books. You wondered how English prose could evoke Japanese art. Here's what we're doing. Besides the appropriate art, which we are taking care with, the stories themselves are written in a style to evoke the feel of the comics: fast action, tight prose, limits on fluff, yet highly visual writing. Similiar to a novelization of a feature film. We're not just slapping art and a term on gay erotica--we're doing our homework on this. I would be willing to pass you a review copy if you're curious.

I hope that clarifies a bit. Feel free to contact me with any questions at the email above, or stef@extasybooks.com . Thank you.

[Baka Deshi]

Personally, I doubt that anything they could show you would be adequate justification for associating one medium with an entirely seperate medium, even if one entirely dismisses the language/cultural barriers present in this case. It would be like if Peter Jackson had promoted the LOTR movies as "BOOK STYLE!!!". :rolleyes:

[John]

Personally, I doubt that anything they could show you would be adequate justification for associating one medium with an entirely seperate medium, even if one entirely dismisses the language/cultural barriers present in this case. It would be like if Peter Jackson had promoted the LOTR movies as "BOOK STYLE!!!". :rolleyes:

eXtasy Books editor Stefani Kelsey asked me to post this response in her place until she has a chance to create her own Forum account.

I'm not sure about your example. The LOTR movies were based on books, and they did mention that quite frequently: Based on the classic tales, etc.. It was a major part of their marketing, that established fanbase. So in a way, they DID promote it just like that. The movies did well because people either read the books or had heard of them. Same with Harry Potter. It's a very basic marketing process, the same one that produces sales for books based on Star Trek and Star Wars. Cross-medium association happens all the time.

It's not a matter of 'justification'. You only have to justify an action when you're doing something wrong. There's a lot of actions that would need justification, but we we're not doing any of them.

We're not taking established graphic series and converting them to text.

We're not stealing ideas from existing books, or insulting artists by spoofing their work.

We're not tacking a term onto books that don't suit the genre and trying to cash in without proper research and procedure.

We have people who like to write this sort of story, and we have people who like to read this sort of story. Rather than cheat the authors of the time they took to research the style and hone it, we chose instead to take the time to produce the books in the style in which they were written, employ an artist in the genre for the covers, and call them what they are. Since books of this type have been produced in Japan to a very happy market, it's not as farfetched a concept as you may think.

Thanks for commenting.

[Soluzar]

I am sure about B4K4 Deshi's example. Your books are not animated. For that reason, they can't be anime-style. They are also not stories presented in the form of drawings with speech-baloons, so they cannot be manga-style either. That's all there is to it. They are prose, and that is valid. You don't need to pin a false label on them in order to push sales.

It's still possible for them to be good books, but they can't be anime-style, or manga-style. Your responses do not so much clarify anything, they merely attempt to deny straightforward facts. In my opinion, you will lose more customers than you gain by this. I feel very strongly about companies who attempt to asociate their product with more successful one, when there is no actual link. I usually refuse to buy it such products, because it strikes me as a form of dishonesty. I'm sure there are others like me.

You seem very defensive for someone who is so sure of their position. Personally, I regard all that you have said as a very spurious justification. However, since your acts are not technically wrong, I will be forced to content myself with hoping that you do not profit by them.

I don't actually think that there is anything reprehensible about what you are doing, but I do resent your misapropriation of a term which was made popular by the work of others. I cordially wish you a lack of success in order that others will not follow in your footsteps, causing an ever greater dillution of the terms "anime" and "manga". It would be entirely different if your publications were comic books of some kind.

[John]

Posted on behalf of eXtasy Books.

It's still possible for them to be good books, but they can't be anime-style, or manga-style. Your responses do not so much clarify anything, they merely attempt to deny straightforward facts.

We never called them 'anime style' , so that doesn't pertain. They're Yaoi and Shounen-ai. We did call a female story Manga, because it's based on that style.

From our press release: 'Although the novels follow the narrative style of manga and its offshoots, the eXtasy line is written in tight, fast-paced prose.' They're written like you are reading a comic, only in prose.

In my opinion, you will lose more customers than you gain by this. I feel very strongly about companies who attempt to asociate their product with more successful one, when there is no actual link. I usually refuse to buy it such products, because it strikes me as a form of dishonesty. I'm sure there are others like me.

There's nothing dishonest about selling Yaoi and Shounen-ai text novels. That's what we are selling them as, as stated in our press release. We just took the extra step and paid a real anime artist to do the cover art rather than cheese it up out of respect for the genre. The link is that not only do they have the art covers, but they're written as if you ARE reading a comic. Just no pictures.

Link to press release: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/11/prweb312813.htm

As for not purchasing them, that's the beauty of this great country--you don't have to.

You seem very defensive for someone who is so sure of their position. Personally, I regard all that you have said as a very spurious justification. However, since your acts are not technically wrong, I will be forced to content myself with hoping that you do not profit by them.

Thank you. I appreciate your absolving me of technical wrongdoing. And I'm glad you're content.

I don't actually think that there is anything reprehensible about what you are doing, but I do resent your misapropriation of a term which was made popular by the work of others.

Also appreciate the release from reprehensibility. Understood. Do you have a more appropriate term in mind for a novel based on Manga books other than Manga-style? I'm open to suggestion.

I cordially wish you a lack of success in order that others will not follow in your footsteps, causing an ever greater dillution of the terms "anime" and "manga". It would be entirely different if your publications were comic books of some kind.

Why, thank you. I cordially accept. As I said before, we're not calling them 'anime'. So that term will remain pristine, at least by my tarnished hands. As for comics, Harlequin beat us to it. Also, as we're primarily ebook, the file would cause issues with download as the graphics would make it huge. We did consider that as well--comic versions of the original text books. It's not doable at this time with what resources we have. I'm researching the process for the future.

Thank you for your comments.

[cat_clan]

Also appreciate the release from reprehensibility. Understood. Do you have a more appropriate term in mind for a novel based on Manga books other than Manga-style? I'm open to suggestion.

In Japan they are usually called Light Novel ( ライトノベル ). They are basically novels with manga style illustrations on it. The problem with the term is that in the US is not a common term.

[Soluzar]

There's nothing dishonest about selling Yaoi and Shounen-ai text novels. That's what we are selling them as, as stated in our press release. We just took the extra step and paid a real anime artist to do the cover art rather than cheese it up out of respect for the genre. The link is that not only do they have the art covers, but they're written as if you ARE reading a comic. Just no pictures.
The part that makes a comic like a comic is the pictures. By using terms which are associated with the field of anime and manga, you are clearly attempting to entice manga fans into buying your product, which does not, in fact, contain a pictorial narrative. Manga contains pictures. It is the very quintessence of the form. Your books do not, which is why it is dishonest of you to use the term in association with your producs. I fail to see how anything that is exclusively textual can be like a comic book. Marketing language doesn't work on me, I'm afraid.

Also appreciate the release from reprehensibility. Understood. Do you have a more appropriate term in mind for a novel based on Manga books other than Manga-style? I'm open to suggestion.
Yes. "Novels". That is what they are, and the term has been good enough for your fellow publishers for many years. Until and unless you add pictures, they are not comics, and since the "manga-style" is a style of comic books, I think you'd have to admit that your justification is a little weak.

Why, thank you. I cordially accept. As I said before, we're not calling them 'anime'. So that term will remain pristine, at least by my tarnished hands. As for comics, Harlequin beat us to it. Also, as we're primarily ebook, the file would cause issues with download as the graphics would make it huge. We did consider that as well--comic versions of the original text books. It's not doable at this time with what resources we have. I'm researching the process for the future.
If you choose to release your stories as comic books, at that time there will be the slightest justification for your marketing tactics. As things stand at the moment, you are misappropriating a term which does not describe your product, in order to push sales. The fact that you continue to be so defensive proves that you are know this is questionable marketing policy.

I don't in any way question the quality of your work; What I question is why you feel that it would not sell if it were described as what it is, instead of what it is not. Do you feel, then, that there is no market for homosexual erotic novels unless they are able to take advantage of the current craze for all things manga?

Come now, your company's works are clearly NOT manga, since they have no pictures. I have no real qualms about you suggesting that they are influenced by the manga art-form, but you cannot deny that you are employing somewhat questionable techniques to tap into a lucrative market. I suggest that you would have a higher degree of customer satisfaction, and repeat custom if you were more straight-forward about what your product is.

You seem to have misunderstood me as I feared that you would. I have no hostility towards your company or your product. I feel that if your product is of sufficiently high quality, it could sell well. I only wish you a lack of success because I would not desire to see your marketing strategies validated. What I hoped to achieve through this is to encourage your to reassess your marketing strategies, and be more honest with the consumer. If your product is good enough, it will sell, but if people feel that you are using questionable marketing strategies, then they may be less inclined to buy your product a second time.

In short, when I see a product that is clearly attempting to cash in on the popularity of anime and manga, nine times out of ten, I ignore it. I don't even give it a second look. If the same product presented itself clearly on its own merits, then it might well have attracted my attention. I dislike the practice of jumping on a particular bandwagon, and I am inclined to vote with my wallet when I see it. In short, it is my opinion that you gain more custom by being straightforward, than by employing phony semantics.

I must admit that I was never likely to be in your target audience, though. Despite having seen a small amount of shounen-ai anime in my time, I have no especial taste for the genre. In particular, if it goes beyond romance, and into graphic depictions of sex, I find myself to be disinterested.

If you wish to engage in this debate further, I encourage you to get an account for the AnimeNation forums. It seems ill-fitting to see your words coming from John Oppliger, since your views and his are polar opposites in this matter.

In closing, please do not ignore the fact that I have repeated many times that your company is engaging in a legitimate art form, and that I have made no disparaging remarks about the quality of your product. My only quarrel with your product is the marketing tactics which are employed. You may take comfort in knowing that my one opinion cannot affect your sales in any way.

[Stef Kelsey]

Yes. "Novels". That is what they are, and the term has been good enough for your fellow publishers for many years. Until and unless you add pictures, they are not comics, and since the "manga-style" is a style of comic books, I think you'd have to admit that your justification is a little weak.


Actually, manga-style is a descriptive term. You already stated that Manga is comics. Manga-style novels would then be a perfectly legitimate term to describe novels written with a Manga feel.

I don't in any way question the quality of your work; What I question is why you feel that it would not sell if it were described as what it is, instead of what it is not. Do you feel, then, that there is no market for homosexual erotic novels unless they are able to take advantage of the current craze for all things manga?


Good question. No. We have m/m stories that sell just wonderfully. We chose to launch this line because we have authors who enjoy writing Yaoi/Shounen-ai/Manga stories. When the authors approached me, I researched it and was intrigued by the idea. The art is fantastic. So I did my homework. And yes, the fact that's it's popular certainly doesn't hurt. But that's all the more reason to do it right.

I must admit that I was never likely to be in your target audience, though. Despite having seen a small amount of shounen-ai anime in my time, I have no especial taste for the genre. In particular, if it goes beyond romance, and into graphic depictions of sex, I find myself to be disinterested.


Graphic sex, yes, Romance, yes. Eternal Souls Books one is a M/M vampire Romeo and Juliet, in fact.

If you wish to engage in this debate further, I encourage you to get an account for the AnimeNation forums. It seems ill-fitting to see your words coming from John Oppliger, since your views and his are polar opposites in this matter.


Actually, John did me a favor. I couldn't activate my account from work, so he posted for me.

In closing, please do not ignore the fact that I have repeated many times that your company is engaging in a legitimate art form, and that I have made no disparaging remarks about the quality of your product. My only quarrel with your product is the marketing tactics which are employed. You may take comfort in knowing that my one opinion cannot affect your sales in any way.



Actually, I did note your acknowledgement of our legitimacy as an art form and I was very impressed. Usually folks would take potshots at my being an erotica publisher in an attempt to disarm me. I'm glad you didn't.

As a fan of the genre, your opinion is important, regardless of whether you buy our books or not.

Okay, let me see if I got this. You have no problem with my calling the books Manga-influenced, as long as I don't call them Manga or anime books.

We don't call them Manga, or even Manga novels. Anime isn't used at all. In the press release, there are only three references to Manga, and they are as follows:

1. 'The popularity of Manga-style art led to the conclusion that erotic novels in that vein would be well-received, and initial sales are proving that theory.'

2. 'That was proven by the popularity of Hawke's Hungry Spirits, a romantic ménage written in the Manga style'

3. Caption for cover art: 'Cover art for Morgan Hawke's Manga-style novel, Hungry Spirits.
Uploaded: Nov 18, 2005'

Three, one of which is talking about art, not our books. And we call it a manga-style novel, not a Manga book, or Manga. That's what it is. No misrepresentation here.

Nowhere on the website or the book buy pages is the words Manga or anime used.

Hungry Spirits: http://www.extasybooks.com/eb.php3?ebookid=20999

Yaoi/Shounen-ai books: http://www.extasybooks.com/results.php3?sub=36

No usuage of the terms in question--no misrepresentation.


If your main concern is my misusing the terms Manga and anime to mislead customers, your fears appear to be groundless, as well as your many times expressed concerns about my marketing tactics. I feel the limited usuage of the terms was perfectly justified, particularly in light of the fact that there are no such terms on the website.

[Stef Kelsey]

In Japan they are usually called Light Novel ( ライトノベル ). They are basically novels with manga style illustrations on it. The problem with the term is that in the US is not a common term.

Exactly. If I used that term on an erotica site, they would probably think it was a mild romance. Now THAT would be misrepresentation.

[Soluzar]

Actually, manga-style is a descriptive term. You already stated that Manga is comics. Manga-style novels would then be a perfectly legitimate term to describe novels written with a Manga feel.
I fail to see how any story written in prose can have the feel of a style of which the principle constituent part is graphical, so I cannot acknowledge this point. Try as hard as I might, I can only view this as sophistry, for reasons which I describe further into this post.

Good question. No. We have m/m stories that sell just wonderfully. We chose to launch this line because we have authors who enjoy writing Yaoi/Shounen-ai/Manga stories.You have yet to offer a substantiative argument as to how precisely these prosaic works are comparable to manga, and I am curious as to how you would form your case. You will not find me easy to convince that when the drawings are subtracted, any true similarity remains. It is my view that once you subtract the drawings from manga, you enter into an entirely separate art-form.

When the authors approached me, I researched it and was intrigued by the idea. The art is fantastic. So I did my homework. And yes, the fact that's it's popular certainly doesn't hurt. But that's all the more reason to do it right.To what art are you referring? Are your books illustrated? If so, this would strengthen your argument, to the point where I would understand your reasons.

Graphic sex, yes, Romance, yes. Eternal Souls Books one is a M/M vampire Romeo and Juliet, in fact.In truth, I have only a passing interest in M/M romance as a subset of romance as a whole. I don't have anything against the various forms that such narratives can take, but I pursue them only in the interests of experimentation. The need for identification will usually drive me to seek heterosexual romance. I am pursuing this debate mainly as an intellectual excersise, rather than as a prospective consumer, per se.

Actually, John did me a favor. I couldn't activate my account from work, so he posted for me.Indeed. My comment was not to be taken as a criticism. I simply find it more appropriate to "face" the person with whom I am disagreeing. The general cast of John's views is familiar to me, from my time on this site, and it seemed more than a trace incongruous to hear your views posted by him, but it was to be taken as an invitation to join the fun, rather than an attack.

Actually, I did note your acknowledgement of our legitimacy as an art form and I was very impressed. Usually folks would take potshots at my being an erotica publisher in an attempt to disarm me. I'm glad you didn't.In my eyes, to dwell upon irrelevancies would only weaken whatever position I am choosing to take. You tell stories. All stories are to be judged upon their merits, by the strength of their narrative.

As a fan of the genre, your opinion is important, regardless of whether you buy our books or not. I trust that I have not mislead you. I could not be called a fan of shounen-ai, in truth. I have a taste for romance and to a lesser degree, literature with an erotic component, but I have only partaken of slightly more than an experimental quantity of such works involving homosexual relationships.

Okay, let me see if I got this. You have no problem with my calling the books Manga-influenced, as long as I don't call them Manga or anime books.It was my impression, both from your first post, and from the comments in the appropriate "Ask John", that this is precisely what you wree doing. It seems that I was wrong, but I would re-iterate at this time that if that were the case, it is my opinion you would be hurting only your own sales.

If your main concern is my misusing the terms Manga and anime to mislead customers, your fears appear to be groundless, as well as your many times expressed concerns about my marketing tactics. I feel the limited usage of the terms was perfectly justified, particularly in light of the fact that there are no such terms on the website.
Yes. It does seem that the use of such terms was greatly more limited than I had expected, and as such I apologise for not taking the time to check. Please understand that if you were to be doing so, you would be only the latest in a long, if not so distinguished, line of companies to employ such tactics, and as such, I expected the worst. The more I have come to read what you have posted, the more I have come to realise this is probably not the case.

All of which said, I would still appreciate if you could take the time to enlarge upon your views that these works of prose have something in common with a primarily graphical form. Working in the field in which you do, you cannot be unaware that there is often said to be only one unified narrative tradition, of which all forms, and regional variants are merely expressions. In short, this view, which I subscribe to, states that it is the form of expression, and not the narrative, which differentiates one branch of the narrative tradition from another. This is the root of my own belief that there should be no barrier to studying graphical forms of literature in academic circles.

Your thoughts, if you have the time to share them, would be valued.

[Stef Kelsey]

Yes. It does seem that the use of such terms was greatly more limited than I had expected, and as such I apologise for not taking the time to check. Please understand that if you were to be doing so, you would be only the latest in a long, if not so distinguished, line of companies to employ such tactics, and as such, I expected the worst. The more I have come to read what you have posted, the more I have come to realise this is probably not the case.

Thank you. Oddly enough, I do understand. My first thought when we decided to do this was that this was an established art form--should we venture there, we better know what we were doing, and watch the stepping on toes. I moved very carefully so as not to do exactly what you feared I had. <g>. As for companies employing negative tactics, I know only too well. We play a straight game at eXtasy...we're WYSIWYG. Others don't. We sometimes pay the price for their behavior.

All of which said, I would still appreciate if you could take the time to enlarge upon your views that these works of prose have something in common with a primarily graphical form. Working in the field in which you do, you cannot be unaware that there is often said to be only one unified narrative tradition, of which all forms, and regional variants are merely expressions. In short, this view, which I subscribe to, states that it is the form of expression, and not the narrative, which differentiates one branch of the narrative tradition from another. This is the root of my own belief that there should be no barrier to studying graphical forms of literature in academic circles.

An interesting view. I think I understand your outlook much better now, and better understand why this concept is odd to you.

Your thoughts, if you have the time to share them, would be valued.

Surely I will, and I appreciate the invitation.

Say you're reading a Manga comic. There are certain elements that are common that MAKES it Manga, aside from the art. More dialogue than description. Fast-paced action. the way the battle scenes are. A certain type of narrative, certain plot types, certain characters. The FEEL, so to speak.

What we're doing is writing prose, but keeping that feel. The books are all about efficiency--the description is sparser, but very visual in order to evoke the images that aren't present. Lots of fast-paced action. The narrative. The stories move quickly, without excessive description bogging them down, yet the details are there. In essence, they're written in a way that the comic images are put in your mind through prose, rather than being on the page. The cover art assists in that, setting the stage. These are real books with real plots, erotic content aside. That's why I used the example of movie novelizations. It's like someone reading a comic, then writing it out. I keep a tight eye on the edits for these.

My opinion is that if you're familiar with Manga and anime, the visuals would come much easier as you would more readily recognize those elements, even if only on a subconscious level. Most of the authors involved are very into the genre, and it shows in their writing.

It's 2 am, so I'm not sure how coherent that is. But that's an overview. (0:

[Stef Kelsey]

I doubt anyone is still following this thread, but I have opened my own house, and will continue to put out these books while maintaining the standard I defended here. The first title was released last night: Mercykill--Shattered Melody, with art by Red Trinity.

I can be found at www.mojocastle.com...contact me at eeestefkelsey@yahoo.com with any questions.

Thank you for allowing me this opportunity.

[John]

I wish you good luck, Stef. I may not agree with your semantics, but I do respect and support your enthuasiasm for the genre.

[Stef Kelsey]

Thank you, John--I appreciated your letting me chat here. Thanks to my doing research for this series, I am now addicted to FMA, GITS, Trinity Blood, Inuyasha and Bleach, and have my kid hooked on Naruto. <g>