Do we really have a soul?

[Joeshie]

Well, it's Sunday night and I'm bored. So I'm going to throw out this question for all of you lucky AnimeNationers out there. Do we have a soul? How do we know it exists? If we really do have a soul, do other organisms (animals, bacteria, etc.) also have them?

[CBMC]

I don't believe in religous texts anymore, but my answer is a resounding yes! As for animals, I would be lead to believfe that since I've felt the presence of my dog's ghost, both when I'm awake and in my dreams. These dreams are really weird, the ones where you feel like you're half asleep/half awake. I usually end up petting her and waking up in the process of doing so. Its very odd. And she only appears when shes mentioned in my dream by name. Like there might be a dream version of her, than the real dog shows up. Hard to explain.

[Joeshie]

I don't believe in religous texts anymore, but my answer is a resounding yes!

Just curious here, but would you mind explaining why you believe we have a soul? Did you come to the conclusion through a coherent thought process or is it just one of those things you "feel" is right?

[CBMC]

Just curious here, but would you mind explaining why you believe we have a soul? Did you come to the conclusion through a coherent thought process or is it just one of those things you "feel" is right?
Mostly I feel its right. Why do we have attachment to others we care about? Why do we feel bad when we do something we know is wrong? I know others don't, like pathological criminals, but I don't think its all chemical processes and the evolved structure of the brain. It also explains ghost phenomena which I've had a few run-ins with.

[Loopy]

No. Can't really say I believe in that concept.

[Garma3]

As a born-again Christian, yes I do believe we have a soul.

[Forzando]

I don't think we have a soul... this is just a complex chemistry thing happening in our brain. a very complex thing... just electron waves in the brain forming patterns and such. That's what I believe. ^^;

[Aelice]

No. If souls seperate us from animals, they dont exist. We just have highly advanced brains that lead us to ponder these things. I think animals in their own respects ponder similar things. Just watch elephants mourning their dead. Or deers committing suicide during the winter starvation period.

[Fallen Angels]

Well the term 'soul' is not synonymous with that of 'spirit' ;

It's that 21 grams belief (http://perdurabo10.tripod.com/id787.html). Upon the exact moment we die, every human loses around three-quarters of an ounce in their body weight. Which many believe is your soul.

''The weight of a chocolate bar or a hummingbird.''
Even if you don't believe in such thing, I find the idea quite touching.

[CBMC]

No. If souls seperate us from animals, they dont exist. We just have highly advanced brains that lead us to ponder these things. I think animals in their own respects ponder similar things. Just watch elephants mourning their dead. Or deers committing suicide during the winter starvation period.

I think animals probably have souls too. I don't know if all of them do, but I'd say ones such as Elephants that show signs of mourning would be good candidates.

[Aelice]

It's that 21 grams belief (http://perdurabo10.tripod.com/id787.html). Upon the exact moment we die, every human loses around three-quarters of an ounce in their body weight. Which many believe is your soul.

They never stop to think that its been proven that gases leave our body when we die? D:

[Suki]

********. We are living because of how our bodies function, and homeostasis.
Souls.. psh...

[Till]

Yes. I don't personally care if anyone else does not believe they have a soul. That's their opinion and they can be 100% right for all I care, but I'll keep my delusion. blemishes and all. :P

[Fallen Angels]

They never stop to think that its been proven that gases leave our body when we die? D:
Well the link I included goes onto explain that the doctor took this into consideration during his experiments - doing artificial respiration after the paitients died to restore the 'gas' which would have left during death. It didn't affect too much of the weight loss - 21 grams of gas seems a bit farfetched.

There is a solid scientific rebuke is the form of blood temperature, body heat and water retension - that animals tend to rid heat through other means - thus the same thing doesn't happen when they die.

[LOSTyears]

No, dont really care.
If u believe in that crap, BIG ups to yah.

[futurebiblehero]

I don't know. I'm agnostic, so that's pretty much my answer to a lot of things.

[White Zombie]

Don't really know, nor care. It's not something I dwell upon. I guess I'll find out when I die, now won't I?

[xxdreamergirlxx]

I would say a soul is basically your personality. It is what makes you.... you. I'm not religious though, so that is just my opinion...

[Joeshie]

For people who believe that animals have souls, would you also include bacteria and individual cell? Both are alive and have instincts.

[Neo0tak0n]

Cells don't have instincts.

All life is one energy force. All life is an infinite flow of recursive organic synthesis.

[Joeshie]

Cells don't have instincts.

All life is one energy force. All life is an infinite flow of recursive organic synthesis.

True, I meant bacteria and viruses.

[Neo0tak0n]

Bacteria and viruses are pre-programmed bio-machines. All living organisms are biomachines, but bacteria and viruses, being simple, are easier to notice. We may be more complex but we are still made of code, we are the projections and translations of symbolic patterns.

[Joeshie]

Bacteria and viruses still contain basic instincts on how to survive. Humans are the only species in the earth that doesn't primarily rely upon instincts to live. Is this because we have a soul?

[Haruhi]

Yes, we have a soul.

[ryushe]

Huh, surprised this isn't cloesd yet...

Anyway, for your question "Do we really have a soul?", my question is "What is really a soul?"

[Leader Desslock]

^ I agree more with the question above than any other answer I've heard so far.

Without defining the concept of a soul, I'd say that if humans have one, it doesn't make us unique. That is to say, I'm sure we have just as much of a soul (whatever it might be) as any other animal. I'd imagine that if we had a way to quantify and observe the souls of living creatures, we'd find that the souls of single-celled organisms were millions of time less complex than higher organisms, just like the rest of their structure and function.

That's assuming souls exist, of course. It's kind of hard to make that determination without defining what it is that's supposed to exist.

[Haruhi]

Huh, surprised this isn't cloesd yet...

Anyway, for your question "Do we really have a soul?", my question is "What is really a soul?"

Hm... Do you think it's close worthy?

[ryushe]

Hm... Do you think it's close worthy?
Nah, I don't want it closed but I could only guess this is going to escalade into a whole religion thing and maybe a flame war...Just my prediction anyway.

[Heat Guy J]

I think the idea that when you die, you permantently dream. Just like you dream now, but you have no body to wake you up, its just fantastic.

A wonderful idea.

NOthing more.

[yuzuha]

I have two.

One on each foot! ;)

[ryushe]

:huh: What, This topic not interesting anymore??? I think it has a lot more "disscus" in it.

[CBMC]

For people who believe that animals have souls, would you also include bacteria and individual cell? Both are alive and have instincts.

I've seen no evidence first hand, but I would imagine its possible. Like whoever said it, they may have a soul, or some kind of "life-force" but it would be less complicated than say the soul of a more complex, intelligent animal like a dog. Your soul imo somehow retains your personality, and lesser creatures definantly don't have much personality other than surivival instincts. But they may still have some kind of simplistic spirit. This is actually starting to sound like some Native American beliefs, which is kinda odd now that I think about it. Although trees and plants like that may have some kind of life-force, I don't think very dead things like rocks would.

[Animematt55]

Hm... Do you think it's close worthy?
some mods have been real 'close nazis' closing anything that a fairly serious discussion pops up in.

anyways, i dont believe in a soul in the christian aspect. That was invented just so people would feel better about themselves.
I believe in a spirit, when you die you will just kinda fade into the earth. It is more of a pagan/wiccan belief really. I have nothing ot back it up at all. SPirit is what gives us our emotions, and everything else. Like someone said, elephants (and i am sure other animals too, mourn the deaths of those close to them.

but if i speak sceintifically, then no, we do not, cause nothing has been proven.

[Animematt55]

I think the idea that when you die, you permantently dream. Just like you dream now, but you have no body to wake you up, its just fantastic.

A wonderful idea.

NOthing more.
But when you die, your body does not function anymore, there for your brain doesnt work. Many people have said 'I saw heaven'. This has been prven to be a dream, cause before, and a few minutes after, a person dies, their brain waves spke around and everything so yo ubasically dream.

There is no proof that a soul or a spirit exist, It all comes down to our beliefs in ourselves which give us spirit and power.

[CBMC]

anyways, i dont believe in a soul in the christian aspect. That was invented just so people would feel better about themselves.

The concept of the soul is much older than christianity, say like back to the first signs of human civilization.

[ryushe]

anyways, i dont believe in a soul in the christian aspect. That was invented just so people would feel better about themselves.
I believe in a spirit, when you die you will just kinda fade into the earth. It is more of a pagan/wiccan belief really. I have nothing ot back it up at all. SPirit is what gives us our emotions, and everything else. Like someone said, elephants (and i am sure other animals too, mourn the deaths of those close to them.

but if i speak sceintifically, then no, we do not, cause nothing has been proven.
I pretty much agree with this, Not to upset anyone but I see a "soul" as there being a Heaven. Yes, I believe there is a heaven, but only due to the fact that I would like to think I go somewhere after I die if I do good deeds. It's pretty much the same with a soul, I think people created it to say "Hey, if my physical body is no more, at least my soul will live on forever".
And as the whole elephants mourning the deaths of those close to them, I honestly think that a case of intelligence.

[Neo0tak0n]

Although trees and plants like that may have some kind of life-force, I don't think very dead things like rocks would.

Why not? The same atoms that make up living objects make up non-living objects. Why should their be a boundary?

[sukioVic]

We dont have a soul we are a soul The soul that is sinning it itself will die, just as an animal dies so does a human die. They are all souls. That is my belief.

[NyogoZ]

I think so. I believe the human body is the vessel for the soul you have. Why would we just be born and then die someday and live no more? That's pointless. We are here for a purpose. I come to these conclusions through belief, feelings, and ideas I get from gathering information about the ways of life.

[Lord Dagoth]

What are we?
Thoughts on our atomic composition and our position in the world
We're just atoms, right? What's a rock? Atoms. What's my laptop? Atoms. Where did I come from? Well, apart from that book having the answer, it's established that we're not sure. Where did my laptop come from? Well, it's component parts, I suppose. Out of the ground. Where did my ancestors go? Into the ground. Are my ancestors part of my laptop? Quite possibly.

Consider us humans, and consider a rock. What's the difference? Not much. We have component atoms. We just have moving parts. Ok, perhaps we have more in common with plants. What's the difference? We have legs, they do not. We have intelligence; they, arguably, don't. With our intelligence we've crafted clothes to wrap our bodies in, tools with which to make it easier to get food. But we're still basically the same thing, component atoms. When we both die, we both get absorbed back into the earth, back to join the large pool of atoms that don't currently make up humans, or plants, or other "living" creatures.

Apart from the odd meteorite hitting earth, or the satellites we fling into outer space, we're not growing or anything. We basically keep the same amount of atoms, we can't "create" any, right? So the greater we populate the earth, the more of this pool of atoms we take up, right?

So the earth is just this big hulk of atoms, some rising from the earth to be part of humans or to rise from the earth to be plants, to be consumed my humans, to become part of humans, and then to be released back in to the earth at a later stage, possibly to become another plant, a rock, or a mineral only to end up in someone's laptop.

To me that's remarkably visual.. this ever changing ever morphing lump of earth, popping out "creatures" on it's surface, only to take them back in later.


I found that today, I thought it was interesting. I don't quite agree with it, but it was interesting none the less.

[Joeshie]

Why not? The same atoms that make up living objects make up non-living objects. Why should their be a boundary?

Because they are not alive. They don't exhibit any growth, reproduction, motion, or responses to their environment. This is the very definition of life. Inatimate objects, such as rocks, do not exhibit any of these qualities. Just because they are made of the same materials that we are, doesn't mean that they have a soul (if you consider the soul to be an energy).

[miko hanyou]

I guess because Some people say that they have seen ghosts in haunted places and does that mean that ghosts are souls?

[Animematt55]

I guess because Some people say that they have seen ghosts in haunted places and does that mean that ghosts are souls?
i believe those would be considered spirits.
Souls is more of a religious thing ment for an afterlife kinda thing (heave/hell)

Ghosts are said to be spirits of humans that arent ready to pass on.

[CBMC]

i believe those would be considered spirits.
Souls is more of a religious thing ment for an afterlife kinda thing (heave/hell)

Ghosts are said to be spirits of humans that arent ready to pass on.
Souls just doesn't exist in a religous context. Just because a relgion uses something doesn't mean it wouldn't exist without out it. The concept existed long before any of the modern religions were thought up. Souls and spirits are the same thing I think, except the spirit is what a soul is when it leaves the physical shell. A ghost is a spirit that does haunting.

[Neo0tak0n]

Because they are not alive. They don't exhibit any growth, reproduction, motion, or responses to their environment. This is the very definition of life. Inatimate objects, such as rocks, do not exhibit any of these qualities. Just because they are made of the same materials that we are, doesn't mean that they have a soul (if you consider the soul to be an energy).

All matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration. The view I am trying to express is that all things have a 'soul' because all things are energy and this continuum of energy physically manifests itself into all things. Not individual souls but an ecology of souls.

[Joeshie]

All matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration. The view I am trying to express is that all things have a 'soul' because all things are energy and this continuum of energy physically manifests itself into all things. Not individual souls but an ecology of souls.

That's a rather silly view in my opinion.

So when I turn on my lamp, I am technically producing a soul with which to read, correct?

[Animematt55]

All matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration. The view I am trying to express is that all things have a 'soul' because all things are energy and this continuum of energy physically manifests itself into all things. Not individual souls but an ecology of souls.
i have heard of that.
dont "higher beings" have a higher vibration? and 'lower beings' have a lower vibration?

[Leader Desslock]

^ And don't the Beach Boys have 'good' vibrations? :)

[Joeshie]

i have heard of that.
dont "higher beings" have a higher vibration? and 'lower beings' have a lower vibration?

I believe that he is refering to De Broglie's hypothesis that all mass is a wave and has an associated wavelength. Essentially the more mass an object has, the smaller the wavelength the mass will have. For example, when you throw a ball, it has a wavelength like light. However, it's mass is so great that the wavelength isn't measureable.

This theory was key in the wave-particle duality theory (that light is both a wave and a particle at the same time).

[Meson]

We do have souls. Think of your soul as a computer's operating system. With the OS, other than the pulses in the wires, there is no physicsal manification of it. The same thing with our souls. Our souls are our bodies' operating systems. This includes all life. Our souls take the shape of the electrical pulses that ride our nerves.

[Animematt55]

We do have souls. Think of your soul as a computer's operating system. With the OS, other than the pulses in the wires, there is no physicsal manification of it. The same thing with our souls. Our souls are our bodies' operating systems. This includes all life. Our souls take the shape of the electrical pulses that ride our nerves.
do you have proof to this?
there is no proof that a soul exists, and no proof a spirit exists,
Spirit can also be described as willpower to me. I have a strong spirit, then i have a strong will. (High wisdom score so i get a bonus on will saves LoL....joking...)

[ranmachen]

I don't think we have souls at all. I think that when we die, there is nothing, our brains rot and get eaten by bugs. It'd be cool if there was an afterlife though, if there is I'm all for it!

[TheSadOne2k]

according to the bible, which invented the idea of a soul, only humans have them... though monkeys are a question.

[Animematt55]

according to the bible, which invented the idea of a soul, only humans have them... though monkeys are a question.
ll but the bible isnt proof.
and humans are animals...so there for we have no souls :loL:

[TheSadOne2k]

how can you say the bible isn't proof? the idea of a sould wouldn't even exist if there was no bible. if you don't believe in god, or that the bible came from god, then you can refute souls. otherwise, you got no case.

[Animematt55]

how can you say the bible isn't proof? the idea of a sould wouldn't even exist if there was no bible. if you don't believe in god, or that the bible came from god, then you can refute souls. otherwise, you got no case.
i dont follow you.
how is the bible PROOF of anything? it is just a cult text written by some guys...
The bible wasnt written by god.
I have my own bible, there for everything in there must be true....so please explain your logic

[Heat Guy J]

But when you die, your body does not function anymore, there for your brain doesnt work. Many people have said 'I saw heaven'. This has been prven to be a dream, cause before, and a few minutes after, a person dies, their brain waves spke around and everything so yo ubasically dream.

There is no proof that a soul or a spirit exist, It all comes down to our beliefs in ourselves which give us spirit and power.


Like I said, A wonderful idea, nothing more.

[Animematt55]

Like I said, A wonderful idea, nothing more.
yup, there is no proof.
I am still waiting for someone to post the logic behind a bible being proof of existance.
We are actually discussing this in my philosphy class....i want to bring up some ideas

[Joeshie]

how can you say the bible isn't proof? the idea of a sould wouldn't even exist if there was no bible. if you don't believe in god, or that the bible came from god, then you can refute souls. otherwise, you got no case.

As it has been stated already in this thread, the concept of a "soul" has been around long before Christianity or the Bible began. Besides, using the Bible as proof in scientific discussion is usually a no-no.

We do have souls. Think of your soul as a computer's operating system. With the OS, other than the pulses in the wires, there is no physicsal manification of it. The same thing with our souls. Our souls are our bodies' operating systems. This includes all life. Our souls take the shape of the electrical pulses that ride our nerves.

A computer's OS is completely physical. We have the memory which tells the monitor what colors to display through the use of electrical current (electrons). The OS exists in the physical memory.

If all you need for a soul is electrical current, then why don't computers show emotions? Why don't computers think?

[Animematt55]

As it has been stated already in this thread, the concept of a "soul" has been around long before Christianity or the Bible began. Besides, using the Bible as proof in scientific discussion is usually a no-no.


using the bible as proof, or saying it explains it in philosophy has always seemed like a lazy way out of freethinking....

"how do i explain this....Well it is because of God, thats it"
LAZY LAZY LAZY

[Kyra]

I strongly believe in the existence of a soul. Our bodies are only vessels that enable us to live in THIS place and time. After physical death, I'm sure we go somewhere else. I don't believe in karma though...

[CBMC]

I strongly believe in the existence of a soul. Our bodies are only vessels that enable us to live in THIS place and time. After physical death, I'm sure we go somewhere else. I don't believe in karma though...
I don't believe in it the say way hindus do, with your actions determining what form you take after death. But I think theres some kind of spiritual credit out there that you can either use or gain, depending on how good or crappy of a person you are. If you do bad, bad things may be pushed in your path. If you do good, you may have something looking out for you. This isn't a rule mind you, becuase I think spirits can only change so much, so bad things will still happen to good people because of chance.

[Animematt55]

I don't believe in it the say way hindus do, with your actions determining what form you take after death. But I think theres some kind of spiritual credit out there that you can either use or gain, depending on how good or crappy of a person you are. If you do bad, bad things may be pushed in your path. If you do good, you may have something looking out for you. This isn't a rule mind you, becuase I think spirits can only change so much, so bad things will still happen to good people because of chance.
I used to believe this, then i see people in power getting away with murder (literally sometimes). i do believe in a kinda afterlife point system. The more points, the better the outcome in the afterlife.
This can amount to either 'hell' reincarnation' 'heaven' Also those that have done many many many good deads can become gods, or supreme beings

[Kyra]

If any of you have ever read any books on Edgar Cayce, he gives a good argument about karma and the unending struggle of the soul, although I don't agree with his beliefs. I believe that good and bad are just given names for two forces (no Star Wars jokes!) that have to co-exist to keep the universe in balance. Whether you lean towards one or the other doesn't necessarily mean you will be punished for it (as you are only helping balance out the yin-yang forces of the universe), but you may lean to the other side in the next "life" to balance your soul out. Hope that makes sense.

[Animematt55]

^ that is true, without one, you cant have the other, cause the other defines the other.

[Kyra]

^ that is true, without one, you cant have the other, cause the other defines the other.

Exactly! ^_^

[Animematt55]

Lets bring the mind into this.
People often confuse it for the brain, but the mind is intangible.
I remember one philsopher said that there are three things. Mind, Body, and Soul. Each control seperate things. Mind is what allows us to think and makes us unique necause it allows us to think critically and make deeper choices. Body is physical. Soul...well i cant really explain that right now....it defines us as beings.

[CBMC]

I used to believe this, then i see people in power getting away with murder (literally sometimes). i do believe in a kinda afterlife point system. The more points, the better the outcome in the afterlife.
This can amount to either 'hell' reincarnation' 'heaven' Also those that have done many many many good deads can become gods, or supreme beings

It doesn't mean people in power can't get away with murder. What I'm getting is that angry spirits will start to conspire to cause your downfall. In a sense you may become cursed. The other side would be a good person who has their life saved miraculously or something good happen to them by some weird coincidence. I actually prevented myself from getting electrocuted once when someone yelled "Hey!" in my ear, which made me stop and notice the open wires. There was noone around. Believe me I looked.

[Animematt55]

It doesn't mean people in power can't get away with murder. What I'm getting is that angry spirits will start to conspire to cause your downfall. In a sense you may become cursed. The other side would be a good person who has their life saved miraculously or something good happen to them by some weird coincidence. I actually prevented myself from getting electrocuted once when someone yelled "Hey!" in my ear, which made me stop and notice the open wires. There was noone around. Believe me I looked.
ah yes, that type of thing.
I sometimes think i have an odd link like that. I am in a public place, and i think of someone i know...and then BAM there they are...spirits at work hehe

[Kyra]

Lets bring the mind into this.
People often confuse it for the brain, but the mind is intangible.
I remember one philsopher said that there are three things. Mind, Body, and Soul. Each control seperate things. Mind is what allows us to think and makes us unique necause it allows us to think critically and make deeper choices. Body is physical. Soul...well i cant really explain that right now....it defines us as beings.

I recently read an article (too bad I can't remember the source) that compared the body, mind and soul to a computer and the soul was akin to the energy source. After the computer crashes, the energy is still around, but is channeled somewhere else... interesting analogy.

[Joeshie]

It doesn't mean people in power can't get away with murder. What I'm getting is that angry spirits will start to conspire to cause your downfall. In a sense you may become cursed. The other side would be a good person who has their life saved miraculously or something good happen to them by some weird coincidence. I actually prevented myself from getting electrocuted once when someone yelled "Hey!" in my ear, which made me stop and notice the open wires. There was noone around. Believe me I looked.

There have been plenty of evil people who have had long and healthy lives while many other good people have been thrown in the trash by life time in and time out. There might be a point system to determine some sort of status in the after-life, but there is really no evidence to show that doing evil will result in a bad future.

[TougeSil80]

I don't believe in souls. A souls is just invented by religious people to keep the masses happy. Someone compared a soul to an OS, but an OS is just codes. If you can open up the WinXP cd with notepad, you can see the codes. But so far there is no proof that the "codes" for a soul exist.

[cybersamuri]

I'd like to think we have souls. but I'm not sure.

it's not that I'm not religious or something like that. I just find it hard to have faith nowadays.

[Kyra]

I don't believe in souls. A souls is just invented by religious people to keep the masses happy. Someone compared a soul to an OS, but an OS is just codes. If you can open up the WinXP cd with notepad, you can see the codes. But so far there is no proof that the "codes" for a soul exist.

No, I'd like to clarify. The body and mind was compared to the OS. The soul was compared to the energy or life-force. Yes, scientists have cracked the dna code and other secrets to how the physical body and brain works, but so far have been unsuccessful in deciphering what is behind life itself.

[Old Ape Face]

well as Aithias i'd have to object that there is such thing as a soul in real life, i believe that life has an end and that's it like a burnt out light bulb, the body is only made of Carbon bonds and cells, the mind it's self is just a muscle. emotions and feeling are all governed and controled by the brain and the nervous system. but for a siritual power to control a body that becomes more independent when you die is just another fictional short story in my opinion. this also aplies to evil spirits posessing a body, No body is evil, everyone lives a certain way. a wise man once said, to be considered evil you must consider others to be just as evil.

[CBMC]

well as Aithias i'd have to object that there is such thing as a soul in real life, i believe that life has an end and that's it like a burnt out light bulb, the body is only made of Carbon bonds and cells, the mind it's self is just a muscle. emotions and feeling are all governed and controled by the brain and the nervous system. but for a siritual power to control a body that becomes more independent when you die is just another fictional short story in my opinion. this also aplies to evil spirits posessing a body, No body is evil, everyone lives a certain way. a wise man once said, to be considered evil you must consider others to be just as evil.
I don't know about good vs. evil in the sense of the force or the devil, but there is evil in the sense of people who are completely selfish and thrive off of cruelty. When these people die they are likely to retain their crappy personalities when their outside of their physical shell. I don't about evil spirits per say, but I did come into contact with one that was highly deranged and freaky. He said he died by noose, so that may be the reason why he was so messed up.

[Aelice]

Anyone who believes they can prove contact with evil spirits should grab the million bucks from James Randi. :D

http://www.randi.org/

Everyone should read up on his well-known experiment with 'Carlos'. (Who still has many believers even today..!)

[Magami No ER]

Soul....soul.....would that ecompass the peronality? Would it come from the front A-10 of the brain(the source of the most inteligent thoughts a human could have) Is that the actual "heart"? These questions are simply too much for me to give a straight answer, so I hope to find my own sort of "answer", comforting or not, throughout my life, mostly within the strories I write and draw, and the people I meet in it as well.
Eh....
Sorry that wasn't much of anything usefull. -_-;
I wish "ghoustly* souls/spirits (like what you see in spiritual anime) actually were provible and tangible, make life a bit more clear. Though, a life started from a nothing, then the force exploded(and continualy is exploding even as I speak, just very delayed and "slow"). Maybe that force to trigger it was a sort of univesral "soul". like Brahma. But our memories we make now are sort of a lasting thought, a sort of soul, I (vauguly) guess.
BTW, I'm Catholic(by birth), but like to look beyond those terms of what is and what isn't, and see life for myself, for what it is/seems to be.

[Kyra]

Soul....soul.....would that ecompass the peronality? Would it come from the front A-10 of the brain(the source of the most inteligent thoughts a human could have) Is that the actual "heart"?

I don't think the basic soul encompasses personality or intelligence, since it may be renewed over and over again in different forms. But then again, who knows? I'm only human, so I expect to be proven wrong :P !

[Magami No ER]

Oh, like the DNA programs given to our embryos at conception? A blank soul renewed....well, the chromosones given some basis for what our traits are, almost randomly, from our parents. So maybe personailty(a mix basis starting with the parents) may have something to do with the soul, but then, real charcter is built from outside experiences, we just may be different in how we react. I mean, a kid can start off like his/her parents, but outside influences may change that. (as well as having different opinons, we know oh so well about that, being on the boards. :P)

[les]

i agree with that, ur born and u die and u return to nothing, any other endings are just fairy tales...this is the simplest and best answer and it really doesnt make life any harder or easier if u come to this conclusion. ;)

[ryushe]

This was such a good topic. Any new takes on the matter?

[The Million Dollar Prons]

Not from me. I took the very un-interesting "Yes we have a soul and when we die we either go to Heaven or Hell," approach.

[Samurai Drifter]

People, when depressed, can take drugs that make them happy. Ultimately many screw with their moods and their minds, and they become nothing more than mindless slaves subject to whatever emotions their medication causes.

No, we don't have souls. Emotions are caused by the firing of various neurons and releases of chemicals in the brain, the exact specifics of which we don't know yet. I have yet to see any good evidence of a soul, or of a god, and furthermore the claim of such is not falsifiable.

For instance, if I say that the lifespan of humans is less than 200 years, that could be disproven by a single human living to be over 200. Evidence can be offered to disprove the claim. But if I claim that there is a god, it cannot possibly be definitively falsified. What possible piece of evidence could be offered that disproves the existence of God?

Thus, the claim is invulnerable to evidence, and as such no scientific study can be undertaken.

And so the claim is not even worth examining.

(And this will probably be the last post in this necromanced thread... since AN has ceased to allow any thread with any sort of intelligent idea to survive.)

[rayndeon]

It must be reiterated: Define what a soul is. Without a rigorous definition, it would be difficult to discuss this topic. I propose this definition: A soul is any incorporeal substance irrevocably attached to a said living thing, generally humans, and is generally held to be responsible for the state or states of the said being and the ultimate essence of that being. It's not great, but at least it's a starting point.

There are all too many definitions of the soul. Plato thought that the soul is the essence of a person and is responsible for the behavior of the person. This is clearly false. Counterexamples abound a-many - for example, alcoholism. How can a physical substance affect the behavior of a person, when supposedly, their behavior is in control of an incorporeal substance? Can a physical substance affect an immortal, transcendent thing? Or, is the soul truly subject to physical interference. Further, how can we even establish its existence if it is truly transcendent?

Aristotle had a more interesting view. He did not hold to the immortality of the soul - instead, he held that it was a process of the body. For example, if a book had a soul, its essence would be "to be read." When it is destroyed, its essence is similarly destroyed. This is a claim to specificity - such as books are made for reading, so are humans made for rationality, so argues Aristotle. However, how can Aristotle actually deductively prove or inductively provide evidence for such a claim? What's worse, the claim seems to be superfluous, which in inductive logic guided via Occam's Razor, the claim does not seem to be sound.

The Abrahamic faiths seem to hold that the soul is the immortal essence of a person, making the person what he or she is. However, this belief seems to run into the same problems.

Ultimately, no, I don't believe in a soul.

[Magami No ER]

I agree totally with rayndeon(Hi!), which is wh I'm evening posting in this topic. Again. <Man I hate reading my old posts. -.->
Nicely presented thesis.
Personally though, I'd love for an essence of matter (of a) soul to be proven regardless, but that may be just wishful thinking.

[kiyomi]

I have no soul..it's on loan to Satan right now..

[Evil_Koala]

I have a soul dawg. Christianity ftw.

Whoops. House is on. BRB.

[Old Ape Face]

<_< not another question on existance.

this world will be doomed by religion.

[Evil_Koala]

<_< not another question on existance.

this world will be doomed by religion.

No this world will be doomed by Atheist Liberals, Islamofascists, and Communists.

[goddessofanime]

I eat souls......they're quite yummy............

[Old Ape Face]

No this world will be doomed by Atheist Liberals, Islamofascists, and Communists.

all run by some biast Religion except aitheist librals, but that's steriotypeing Aithiests, i'm not liberal i simpley deny the existence of the souler being, and god.

[Evil_Koala]

all run by some biast Religion except aitheist librals, but that's steriotypeing Aithiests, i'm not liberal i simpley deny the existence of the souler being, and god.

You're stereotypin Religious folk though...And Communism is NOT pro-Religion...

We better stop before we start a flame war.

[Lord Timaeus]

I'd rather not think about matters such as this; although I will say that if we were meant to know about the existence of souls or an actual afterlife, we would have already found out ages ago.

[Old Ape Face]

im getting out of the fire befor it's too late.

[The Million Dollar Prons]

this world will be doomed by religion.

We're even worse off without it.

[master terrence]

Do we really have souls?

1)that can not be tested.
2)Do you believe you have one? Endorphins have their limits, that is obvious. Some people have changed completely by becoming spiritual. Maybe you should check out Buddhism, and I don't mean on the internet, but an actual temple. Also, a religous retreat may help you find this answer.

If I were to say, "yes you have one", don't just believe me- find it yourself. No one else is you, no one can conclude for you that you have a soul. they can say "yes", and aid you in finding it, but you may not find it. Some people have come to understand it throguh sacred scripture, but the answer is not there. It takes faith and action.

this world will be doomed by religion.

That's cute coming from a guy who adheres to beliefs and can't even spell atheism.

[Neo0tak0n]

someone once said the "[The force] is an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."

and he was spot on

[Old Ape Face]

Do we really have souls?

1)that can not be tested.
2)Do you believe you have one? Endorphins have their limits, that is obvious. Some people have changed completely by becoming spiritual. Maybe you should check out Buddhism, and I don't mean on the internet, but an actual temple. Also, a religous retreat may help you find this answer.

If I were to say, "yes you have one", don't just believe me- find it yourself. No one else is you, no one can conclude for you that you have a soul. they can say "yes", and aid you in finding it, but you may not find it. Some people have come to understand it throguh sacred scripture, but the answer is not there. It takes faith and action.



That's cute coming from a guy who adheres to beliefs and can't even spell atheism.

spelling has nothing to do with a belief system. and just becuase i talk about beliefs doesn't mean i suport them.

someone once said the "[The force] is an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."

and he was spot on

oh no not a star wars Boudist.

[rayndeon]

Do we really have souls?

1)that can not be tested.

Right.


2)Do you believe you have one?

No.

Endorphins have their limits, that is obvious.

Clarify the relevance please.

Some people have changed completely by becoming spiritual.

Right. But, this is nothing more than a fufilled intention - no more different when we set ourselves to something. Further, several religions make claims to spiritual enlightenment only through their path. If the self is constantly in flux (as Bugddhist precepts hold), then attempting to reach a singular state is useless. And yet, such singular states are the goals of Abrahamic faiths. And many theists of the Abrahmic tradition do indeed become very spiritual. These contradictions are in need of answers.

Maybe you should check out Buddhism, and I don't mean on the internet, but an actual temple. Also, a religous retreat may help you find this answer.

Well, I can't speak about temples, but I have dabbled in Buddhist philosophy. (In the intent of gaining knowledge of Buddhist tenets, not practice)

If I were to say, "yes you have one", don't just believe me- find it yourself.

How is this possible? If the soul is an incorporeal, transcendent substance, how is it possible to investigate it inductively at all?

No one else is you, no one can conclude for you that you have a soul. they can say "yes", and aid you in finding it, but you may not find it.

Right. But, how is the soul ultimately responsible for this? This is closely tied to substance dualism. Do the soul and the body interact? If so, how can an immaterial substance interact with a material substance? This seems like a strange proposition.

Some people have come to understand it throguh sacred scripture, but the answer is not there. It takes faith and action.

Possibly. But, is that verifiable or supportable?

[Holy Knight]

I do not believe in souls in the religious sense. Maybe in the sense of "consciousness". Maybe. I don't find it very supportive to know that what we call our "selves" could be nothing more than a few hundred chemicals flitting through a network of neurons.

Then again, I recently read a book by Robert M. Pirsig where he enunciated the idea of collectivity as furthering evolution. That is to say, atoms make molecules, which in turn make cells, then to living beings and these living beings come together to make societies. So maybe neurons are a society in itself, where the induvidual neuron has nothing special to show, whereas the whole is where things get interesting as we then see a collective movement of thought, namely, evolution.

So...do I have a soul? No. Do I have a consciousness? I'll say yes for now, but I'm ready to accept any theory that could explain things a bit clearer and rigorously.

[Old Ape Face]

nature in itself is an experiment. i believe in evelusion and the slow change of animale life forms as their need to survive different evmironments.

the human race is the only race to succesfully achieve bipedal movement becuase of a larger brain. due to bipedual movment, we are slower and less agile then quadropedual animals, and becuase we are up right we're easy to spot be a preditor. but with a large brain we are able to out smart a quadroped, and therefor humanity evolved from a semi upright animal. evidence of this bipedual creature found in south africa, nick named Lucy.

[quaze6]

No this world will be doomed by Atheist Liberals, Islamofascists, and Communists.

i completely agree

[Leader Desslock]

No this world will be doomed by Atheist Liberals, Islamofascists, and Communists.
So pagan liberals, fascists without any religious affiliation and Plutocrats are totally fine. Gotcha. ^_^

None of those hold a candle to evil reptilian mind rapists under control of the parasitic alien overlords, so I don't know what you're worried about. The real problems are in ten - NOT NINE - dimensions. We'll never be able to verify our souls exist until we shut down the interference at Montauk, hop in our Merkabahs and sail off to kick some serious demiurge backside.

Sheesh. It's like you people live on a different world or something. :rolleyes:

[Soluzar]

None of those hold a candle to evil reptilian mind rapists under control of the parasitic alien overlords, so I don't know what you're worried about. The real problems are in ten - NOT NINE - dimensions. We'll never be able to verify our souls exist until we shut down the interference at Montauk, hop in our Merkabahs and sail off to kick some serious demiurge backside.
I for one welcome our new parasitic alien overlords.
(Oh and, BTW: "XD!")

[Evil_Koala]

So pagan liberals, fascists without any religious affiliation and Plutocrats are totally fine. Gotcha. ^_^

Nah, they're bad too. Allallallallah!

[superplough]

yes, we have souls. every living thing has a soul. this is why it strives for life. even a bacteria that only follows its genetic programming has a soul because it is still alive and kicking.

[Neo0tak0n]

humans dont follow their genetic programming?

[Animematt55]

yes, we have souls. every living thing has a soul. this is why it strives for life. even a bacteria that only follows its genetic programming has a soul because it is still alive and kicking.
scientfic proof please?

[Samurai Drifter]

I do not believe in souls in the religious sense. Maybe in the sense of "consciousness". Maybe. I don't find it very supportive to know that what we call our "selves" could be nothing more than a few hundred chemicals flitting through a network of neurons.
Indeed. But the truth is the truth. It does not have to be supportive or comforting.

That's one of the main problems I have with religion and religious ideas. None of it is supported by facts or evidence, just emotive statements.

[Laharu]

scientfic proof please?

haha trying to find scientific proof for a soul, that's a good one.


Yeah, I think we do have souls. And that is my belief-- for whatever it is worth.

[CrossboneGundam]

This was such a good topic.

Not really. See next quote.

No this world will be doomed by Atheist Liberals, Islamofascists, and Communists.

So what do you say to liberal Christian Evangelicals? (I guess one might call them "fundamentalists" if one considers "fundamentalism" to be accurately following Jesus' teachings and examples... But whatever.)

[The Million Dollar Prons]

scientfic proof please?

Does everything have to have scientific proof?

[Rain]

Quite a few of you are confusing the soul ("essence of being") with the physicality of life.

[Samurai Drifter]

Does everything have to have scientific proof?
Yes. Otherwise, what reason is there to believe it?

[HSaabedra]

Life is what we make of it, really. If people spend time dwelling on such rhetorical questions, then there would be no time to enjoy life. If wondering about whether or not a soul is ultimately tangible like a piece of paper pleases someone, then I wish them well. I choose to believe that a soul is made of the individual itself, from a combination of the physical and mental qualities of said individual, as well as their own unique experiences in llife. This is a question that will never have definitive yes or no answer, but serves as a springboard to higher levels of thought. I hope this will add to the conversation at hand in some way.

[Ketaru]

Life is what we make of it, really. If people spend time dwelling on such rhetorical questions, then there would be no time to enjoy life. If wondering about whether or not a soul is ultimately tangible like a piece of paper pleases someone, then I wish them well. I choose to believe that a soul is made of the individual itself, from a combination of the physical and mental qualities of said individual, as well as their own unique experiences in llife. This is a question that will never have definitive yes or no answer, but serves as a springboard to higher levels of thought. I hope this will add to the conversation at hand in some way.

Too feel-good. I suspect most people want some truth that isn't relative, for once.

Speaking of which, is there anything that people consider absolute anymore? When you look up information on topics like religion, morality, etc., it's always "truth is relative" or "<insert item> is just a social construct".

[Rain]

Yes. Otherwise, what reason is there to believe it?

"Blind" faith?

It is impossible to scientifically prove the subsistence of an incorporeal or ethereal substance, so none of you are going to obtain that which you so desire.

Speaking of which, is there anything that people consider absolute anymore? When you look up information on topics like religion, morality, etc., it's always "truth is relative" or "<insert item> is just a social construct".

There are no absolutes that define reality, everything is relative (to some level,) and thus there is no "true" reality. With that said, perception of these absolute truths only pertains to the individual, and is merely subjective opinion.

[superplough]

scientfic proof please?
silly man, you dont need proof, you just believe it. because its true.

[Samurai Drifter]

"Blind" faith?

It is impossible to scientifically prove the subsistence of an incorporeal or ethereal substance, so none of you are going to obtain that which you so desire.
Exactly.

And one of the greatest fallacies that seems to be held by the Christians I've talked to is that, somehow, the lack of any way to disprove Christianity is somehow proof positive of God's existence. How? Just because I can't prove that something doesn't exist doesn't mean it does.

The burden of proof is on the claimant, and so far the claimant has done nothing but make excuses.

[superplough]

Exactly.

And one of the greatest fallacies that seems to be held by the Christians I've talked to is that, somehow, the lack of any way to disprove Christianity is somehow proof positive of God's existence. How? Just because I can't prove that something doesn't exist doesn't mean it does.

The burden of proof is on the claimant, and so far the claimant has done nothing but make excuses.
existance of god does not equal existance of soul, thats a totally different discussion

[Samurai Drifter]

Not totally. The methods of coming to a conclusion about the existence of either is the same.

Both are non-falsifiable statements, and are thus un-scientific.

[Rain]

existance of god does not equal existance of soul, thats a totally different discussion

If I'm not mistaken, he was using it as an analogy (see: "Just because I can't prove that something doesn't exist doesn't mean it does.")

The burden of proof is on the claimant, and so far the claimant has done nothing but make excuses.

I don't disagree.

[superplough]

ok look at something alive.

now look at something dead.

how can you tell the difference?

soul.

[Leader Desslock]

Okay, so we've pretty much established that there is no scientific evidence (tangible proof) for the existence of the soul. There's no experiment that can be performed that can verify its existence under repeatable laboratory conditions.

If anyone has any tangible proof they'd like to submit, I suggest they do so. The concensus of the thread seems to be that no such evidence has yet been presented, so the onus is on those that think it does. Either provide this evidence (preferably a link to experimental data) or drop the point, because it's going nowhere.

Next point: Anyone got any sort of LOGICAL proof for the existence / nonexistence of souls? A lack of evidence shouldn't prevent a logical argument from being formulated. If the argument is sound, it'll all go back to the specifics upon which the argument is based (about which we might disagree), but at least it'll be more interesting than the current "Is too! Is not!" bickering.

EDIT: I would further suggest that we leave the existence or nonexistence of God out of this discussion, because it frankly shouldn't be relevant. This is a thread talking about the nature of the soul, if there is such a thing. Where the soul came from and what's going to eventually happen to it are really quite separate issues. I don't need to know who made the pizza or what happens when I digest it in order to verify that there is currently a slice of pizza on my plate, if you see what I'm saying.

[Samurai Drifter]

ok look at something alive.

now look at something dead.

how can you tell the difference?

soul.
How can I tell the difference? Lack of heartbeat and/or brain activity. You'll have to do better than that.

As for logical arguments... there is no logical reason, as far as I can see, that a soul should exist.

[Leader Desslock]

As for logical arguments... there is no logical reason, as far as I can see, that a soul should exist.
Well, that's not quite what I was talking about. I was talking about "If X is the case, then it logically follows that y, z, and thus, the soul must exist (or not exist)". Or "If a soul exists, then because of X, we know the soul must have property Y. It should also have property Z. But Y and Z are logically incompatible, so the soul must not exist".

That sort of thing. Why bother looking for tangible evidence for a soul's existence until you've narrowed down what sort of thing it can and can't be?

I believe that some of the stranger aspects of Quantum physics are logically inferred, rather than based on direct observation. (someone correct me if I'm wrong, there) These aspects are still considered 'valid'. I thought some folks out there might have something similar regarding the existence (or not) of a soul, is all.

I'm quite sure there are arguments for and against the existence of a soul; that doesn't mean logic is suspect, it just means that either some of these arguments contain fallacies, or else they differ in the premises upon which they're based.

[seba_boi]

I got my share of soul food...

[Scandiadream]

Yes we do. Higher animals in general do. Dunno where the limitation is, or if everything has a spirit.

[Old Ape Face]

Does everything have to have scientific proof?

if it's providing us with a more logical life style it does. Religion is so 1st century, it's time to move on to something more interesting.

here is my theory on a soul.

for something to exist it does not necessarily have to be a physical object, the theory of Communism is a perfect government on paper, but it doesn't exist in the physical universe, the Bible states that god created the universe in seven days, as genesis states. However the human race has proved that we are godly in our technology and our studies, and it is clear that we are incapable of creating a new physical universe. However we have created a different type of universe, this universe refers to knowledge and data. Also known as the information universe. this does not exist in the physical universe directly. it exists on a database, a web of networks and hard drives, text books and pages of text, memory cells, in the human brain. if a soul does not exist in the physical universe it exists in the information universe, and can take the form of anything.

so with this said considering the universe of information a soul does exist

[Animematt55]

ok look at something alive.

now look at something dead.

how can you tell the difference?

soul.
umm..heartbeat? brain activity...you know, scientific medical stuff.

You beleive in a soul cause you have faith in it? Blind Faith? That is one of the most dangerous things known to man. The Islamic terrorists have blind faith in their beliefs.

[Holy Knight]

Logical proof or disproof of the existence of a soul? I'll give it a try.

If we accept the brain as being the "hardware" of the human body, and the sence of "self" as the software of the human body, we can then deduce that the human brain is capable of "Gödelian recursion". That is to say, it can analyse itself. This is also an argument in computer AI, where we would consider a computer to be "alive" if it can out-Gödel a human (though there is much controversy over this).

So, as the brain can act upon itself by creating a dualistic persona "us" to oversee its decisions in physical reality, we can infer that a "consciousness" exists, ulterior to the basic functions of this organ. This would imply that if a "soul" does exist, then it is an illusion perpetuated by the brain so it can effectively cope with internal and exterior functions of itself.

Therefore, a soul does not exist because it is an insubstantial artificially created mass that serves the functions of one entity.

However! We could also claim a soul to exist if it would be possible to show a true dichotomy between human consciousness and the brain itself. This is not as yet the case, therefore, I have to opt with the idea that a soul does not exist.

How does that sound?

[Old Ape Face]

^ you state that the soul is an artificially created mass in the brain, possibly developed by constant analysis of a religious aspect. in that case the soul must have some existence. naturally no, but artificially yes.

if humans = god, then the universe = heaven, then the bible = written text and information, then the soul = an artificial creation written down on paper.

and death is just the end of everything.

[Lemina]

Of course we have a soul. A soul is something you feel; a deeply felt emotion; the emotional part of human nature. It's the principle of life, thought, feeling, action, open-mindedness, spirit, will, and courage we live with. The spiritual part of us as distinct from the physical part of us. I strongly believe that after we die, our souls will live on. You know ghosts exist. I know I've had my fair share of super natural occurances, and I could feel the souls of those who passed on who were important to me. People might think that sounds funny, but it really isn't. I'm serious, and this is a serious matter no one should abuse talking about badly. <_<

[Neo0tak0n]

Since there is no distinction between human and animal, I don't see how only a human can have a soul. If a human has a soul, then it is necessarily true that all life has a soul.

If I look at the species problem, and I acknowledge that species do not exist, then there is no distinction from any life. If a soul is what distinguish me from you and me from a cockroach, then it requires a seperation of organism, it requires speciation. As species don't exist, neither do individual souls.

[Lemina]

Since there is no distinction between human and animal, I don't see how only a human can have a soul. If a human has a soul, then it is necessarily true that all life has a soul.

If I look at the species problem, and I acknowledge that species do not exist, then there is no distinction from any life. If a soul is what distinguish me from you and me from a cockroach, then it requires a seperation of organism, it requires speciation. As species don't exist, neither do individual souls.

I also think every living organism has a soul just as we do. Sure they don't speak or communicate with us, or are as intellegent as humans are, but they still have feelings, and just as we are close to other beings of our kind, they are close with theirs too. As weird as that sounds, it's true, and it's a part of life. Unfortunately, people out there don't realize that off-hand before they consider killing that "pest".

[Samurai Drifter]

Of course we have a soul. A soul is something you feel; a deeply felt emotion; the emotional part of human nature. It's the principle of life, thought, feeling, action, open-mindedness, spirit, will, and courage we live with. The spiritual part of us as distinct from the physical part of us. I strongly believe that after we die, our souls will live on. You know ghosts exist. I know I've had my fair share of super natural occurances, and I could feel the souls of those who passed on who were important to me. People might think that sounds funny, but it really isn't. I'm serious, and this is a serious matter no one should abuse talking about badly. <_<
But... emotions are useless in determining what or what not to believe in.

[Fobb]

I should bump my Socratic Method thread. So many great thinkers!

So here is my answer:
The soul, according to many religious and philosophical traditions, is a self-aware ethereal substance particular to a unique living being.

A soul is basically who we are. I haven't seen any other meanings of the word soul, and soul can't be defined scientifically, because it's religious. So I think, the mere fact that anyone with a personality is proof of the existence of soul.

[seba_boi]

Nothing humans do or has ever done that can prove that there is a soul... It's all about beliefs... Beliefs to a higher entity that no science or theologean can ever fully explain...

[Leader Desslock]

... Also known as the information universe. this does not exist in the physical universe directly.
You've been taking GitS too seriously. It's just a cartoon, man.

In any case, regarding anything related to a computer 'universe' outside of the physical universe, you're factually incorrect. This can be verified by physical experimentation. All of the data in this 'information universe' you're inventing is just a series of electrical impulses transmitted by highly complex array of what are effectively light switches. Binary encoding and transmission does not make the original data any more than what it was before, which is simply encoded information.

Where you're having trouble is that you're confusing yourself with your own metaphor. Separate what you're saying from the imagery you're using to say it, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

... if a soul does not exist in the physical universe it exists in the information universe...
Even if I was to assume that your 'information universe' exists, that statement would not be a logical assertion. It's an assumption, and one which you haven't backed up with any sort of reasoning.

How does that sound?
Like a better attempt than anyone else has made... ^_^

Since there is no distinction between human and animal, I don't see how only a human can have a soul. If a human has a soul, then it is necessarily true that all life has a soul.
While I wouldn't say that follows logically, I will say that I agree with the sentiment. If humans do have a soul, I don't see anything that separates humans from other animals so much that we could conclude that animals have no such soul. The idea that only humans have souls sounds to me more like a human conceit than a logical conclusion.

Regarding species - do I thnk species exist? Certainly. It's an arbitrary organizational scheme applied to life, but I think it's as valid as any other. I just don't think it's relevant when talking about souls without a physical definition of soul that correlates to the 'species' organizational scheme. SImply put, we don't know enough about souls (if they exist) to apply the species model to them.

[Old Ape Face]

^dessloc my evidens is what your talking on right now :P

and what's wrong with being a GITS fan? I see you've read it. just becuase it's a cartoon doesn't mean i can't agree with it.

you got people who believe in star wars, but i don't see you makeing that clear them about it's just a movie.

and univers doesn't nessesarily have to mean outer space, a univers is an entirety of one genre or area. and univer doesn't have to be documented as being an actual place. the library is just a planet of the information universe, amoung the stars and galaxies the internet is just a soular wave, meteforically.

it's not an invention it's a metefor.

[Animematt55]

Of course we have a soul. A soul is something you feel; a deeply felt emotion; the emotional part of human nature. It's the principle of life, thought, feeling, action, open-mindedness, spirit, will, and courage we live with. The spiritual part of us as distinct from the physical part of us. I strongly believe that after we die, our souls will live on. You know ghosts exist. I know I've had my fair share of super natural occurances, and I could feel the souls of those who passed on who were important to me. People might think that sounds funny, but it really isn't. I'm serious, and this is a serious matter no one should abuse talking about badly. <_<
*sings Sunshine, lolipop, and rainbows*
That is a rather interesting view. Of course the world isnt all flowers and sugar.

I fo rone, have never 'felt' my soul. I believe what many humans believe as a soul is just more awareness of who they are, and their higher thinking capability. I would liek to see a deer contimplate his existance.

[Neo0tak0n]

you got people who believe in star wars, but i don't see you makeing that clear them about it's just a movie.

well, star wars is actually a documentary that was filmed in real time and sent to us from princess leia

[Old Ape Face]

well, star wars is actually a documentary that was filmed in real time and sent to us from princess leia


you mean Jorge Lucous, in Hallywood California,

[Leader Desslock]

^dessloc my evidens is what your talking on right now :P
Yes. I'm throwing a series of switches on this end, sending a series of electronic pulses across a transmissionl medium, which your receiver is picking up and displaying in a meaningful fashion.

Nobody ever accused the Telegraph of housing sentience; the internet is NO different.

and what's wrong with being a GITS fan?
Nothing at all, but it's hardly something to base a worldview on. :lol:

i don't see you makeing that clear them about it's just a movie.
If someone comes into this thread (It'd be DEMON212, most likely) and claims that souls must exist because the Jedi council would be powerless without them, then YES, I assure you, I will.

[Fobb]

What are you talking about Dess? Don't you believe in the force? I could prove it to you right now scientifically (not really)

[Old Ape Face]

Yes. I'm throwing a series of switches on this end, sending a series of electronic pulses across a transmissionl medium, which your receiver is picking up and displaying in a meaningful fashion.

Nobody ever accused the Telegraph of housing sentience; the internet is NO different.


Nothing at all, but it's hardly something to base a worldview on. :lol:


If someone comes into this thread (It'd be DEMON212, mos likely) and claims that souls must exist because the Jedi counsil would be powerless without them, then YES, I assure you, I will.

and what about libraries of refrences and information, collected over centuries.

information univeres is more logical then the bible, that doesn't mean it has to exist, but the concept of storing information in a library isn't hard to understand.

[Leader Desslock]

and what about libraries of refrences and information, collected over centuries.
Ink arranged in meaningful patterns on pressed wood pulp, organized in an easy to find fashion. At what point does a 'soul' come into the picture, exactly?

[seba_boi]

What is this "Information Universe"?... Is it from Ghost In The Shell?...

[Old Ape Face]

it's not what it's made of Desslock it's what it tells you. yes the information Univers is a human invention baced on the collected and documented sources and references of everything in human history, including the spiritual soul. In other words, the soul as well as the information universe only exists in the human mind. but technology and artifficial instroments are able to amblify and store this information for as long as the human race exists.

[Magami No ER]

^While I understand what your saying, I'm gonna have to chalk this up to etymology...er..."differences" and say that your defining something else as a collective "soul." It's not traditionally what has been termed with the word "soul.".
But then, that word and its connotations has been shown (even in this thread) HIGHLY vary, obviously, which is why this "debate" has a high unlikelihood of being resolved.
At least it's not flammish and mildly interesting despite all've that.^^

[Leader Desslock]

it's not what it's made of Desslock it's what it tells you.
So you're saying that the sum total of human experience and information somehow has some kind of emergent sentience of its own? I'd welcome any remotely logical argument to support that, if you want to make another thread.

...getting back to THIS thread, it might be best if we stick logical agruments to support the existence of the human soul.

[rayndeon]

The soul is an immaterial, immortal substance attached to a physical living being and is responsible for the states of said being. For those in agreement with the soul's existence, please tell me if you have trouble with this definition.

[Old Ape Face]

The soul is an immaterial, immortal substance attached to a physical living being and is responsible for the states of said being. For those in agreement with the soul's existence, please tell me if you have trouble with this definition.

it keeps going round in circles doesn't it, >_< the dibate i mean.

[Alice Catherine]

I don't really believe in God all that much anymore (this said growing up in a Catholic family and going to Catholic school for 2 years, which actually pushed me away from this 'God') so I don't really believe I have a soul.

[Leader Desslock]

The soul is an immaterial, immortal substance attached to a physical living being and is responsible for the states of said being. For those in agreement with the soul's existence, please tell me if you have trouble with this definition.
My problems with this definition are as follows, and perhaps simple clarification is needed:

1) "immaterial ... substance". To my mind, these are mutually exclusive properties. That which has substance is, by definition, material.

2) "is responsible for the states of said being" - The emotional state of a given person can be altered by physical means, so I have a problem with this statement if unqualified. Either it's not SOLELY responsible, or the term 'states' needs to be clarified a bit.

[rayndeon]

1) "immaterial ... substance". To my mind, these are mutually exclusive properties. That which has substance is, by definition, material.

Perhaps it is better defined as an immaterial entity? That seems to be a non-specific noun that does not specify whether or not the soul is material.

2) "is responsible for the states of said being" - The emotional state of a given person can be altered by physical means, so I have a problem with this statement if unqualified. Either it's not SOLELY responsible, or the term 'states' needs to be clarified a bit.

I think the confusion arises from something we need to clarify further - often, the soul is said to be the essence of a person. What is the definition of the essence of a living being? I think that problem is directly tied to this problem.

[inuyasha_junkie]

i highly doubt it. but then again i dont god exists.

[Rurouni Saiyan]

All I can say is that one's soul makes them who they are. If humans didn't have souls, then we would all be no different from, well...mannequins. We'd all be walking husks of flesh with no true differentiating characteristics. To take it a step further, the sum of one's experiences form their souls, making them into what they are today.

On the subject of religion, there lies a fundamental problem in using religion as a platform for discussion in that people are using logic to define faith and vice versa. I've learned that essentially 1) both don't mix and 2) everything cannot be explained by logic.

[Leader Desslock]

...If humans didn't have souls, then we would all be no different from, well...mannequins. We'd all be walking husks of flesh with no true differentiating characteristics...
But even mannequins have differing physical characteristics, based on how they were made.

Even if you have two identical mannequins, they occupy different space and thus fit differently into their environment. If you set one in the window on a sunny day, it'll even be warmer than its identical counterpart in the basement, illustrating differences as a function of their environments. Over time, the plastic of the one in the window will photodegrade, and thus the two 'identical' mannequins will be able to be differentiated, based on the 'footprint' of their respective histories.

The question would then be: Are the differences between humans really any MORE than the sum of the differences between their phsyical makeup (genetics, rather than their 'mold'), their envionment and their experience? Is there anything above that, and if so, what? THAT might be the first glimmer of what we're trying to define as 'a soul' for the purposes of discussion.


As far as the faith/logic mix, I disagree. Faith and logic can be quite complementary, it's just that so few people these days seem to understand how to use logic effectively (on both sides of the supernatural fence) that it often seems like the two are incompatible.

[Rurouni Saiyan]

But even mannequins have differing physical characteristics, based on how they were made.

True, but the fact remains that they have no personality or distinguishing characteristics besides their physical make up.


Even if you have two identical mannequins, they occupy different space and thus fit differently into their environment. If you set one in the window on a sunny day, it'll even be warmer than its identical counterpart in the basement, illustrating differences as a function of their environments. Over time, the plastic of the one in the window will photodegrade, and thus the two 'identical' mannequins will be able to be differentiated, based on the 'footprint' of their respective histories.

But it still wouldn't change the fact that it is a lifeless being. It's just a lifeless, personality lacking being with a different skin shade than the other mannequin.


The question would then be: Are the differences between humans really any MORE than the sum of the differences between their phsyical makeup (genetics, rather than their 'mold'), their envionment and their experience? Is there anything above that, and if so, what? THAT might be the first glimmer of what we're trying to define as 'a soul' for the purposes of discussion.

Why yes there are. A person growing up in the ghetto will have a drastically different outlook on life as opposed to a person who has lived in the affluent neighborhoods of Beverly Hills.

[Old Ape Face]

Why yes there are. A person growing up in the ghetto will have a drastically different outlook on life as opposed to a person who has lived in the affluent neighborhoods of Beverly Hills.

and that proves they have a soul? or does it only mean that they grew up through different ethnic back grounds.

[superplough]

take two people who live in the same house, have the same mother, grow up in the same environment, and eveything affects them in the same way. they will still end up different.

[Old Ape Face]

i agree totally, except for one thing, they both take different paths. my brother for example loves paintball, but i'm not into the sport very much becuase i have different likes.

becuase i like other things means i have a soul? i don't think so, just becuase i'm able to make choices on what i like doesn't mean it's controled by a soul.

[NyogoZ]

You are right, but believing in something else rather than what their parents made them believe would be a challenge. Unfortunately, I am experiencing the same ordeal, but that's part of life's battles, I guess. You just gotta be strong, mentally and physically.

[CrossboneGundam]

ok look at something alive.

now look at something dead.

how can you tell the difference?

soul.

Actually the difference would be cellular proccesses like the metabolization of nutrients to make energy, and such.

By your reasoning, you're a mass murderer. Your body fights infection all the time, therefore, it's killing billions of microbes with "souls," right? And if you wash your hands, you're wiping out millions more of these "souls."

Heck, your definition implies that every cell in a multicellular organism is a sentient, conscious individual being capable of self-identification. Every time you scratch your skin, you're tearing away a million dead skin cells! You're just an organic murder-machine! :P

[master terrence]

The question would then be: Are the differences between humans really any MORE than the sum of the differences between their phsyical makeup (genetics, rather than their 'mold'), their envionment and their experience? Is there anything above that, and if so, what? THAT might be the first glimmer of what we're trying to define as 'a soul' for the purposes of discussion.




Is there anything above the sum of differences between physical make up, enviorment, and experience? are those the only differences?


Most people won't like my answer, but I believe I have a soul. I believe that when someone dies, that soul is still alive to travel it's journey. To me a soul is something I am, truthfully and dually. The purest form of my being. I don't feal as if it is above the physical make up, enviorment, and experience, (although it does have a higher value) but rather hidden in there. Only drawn out in spirituality until death. In some way it is kind of an underlying framework for me. These things suggest to me the existence of something more than just a physical self. Spirituality would be centering my interests on that side of man's nature.

In primal religions, they justify the soul by looking at the mysteries of births and deaths and even things which "abstract one from their bodily consciousness."

Some believe mind is all it is. A series of impressions in the sentient mind.

In Epicureanism, it is beleived that the soul consists of the finest and smallest atom. Smaller than that of heat. It is kept together by the body, and when the soul dies, the body dies.. or when the body dies, the soul dissolves. The Stoics believed something similar... I think <.<;;

ya, I know, my answer "sucks" and you probably don't like it.

[Leader Desslock]

True, but the fact remains that they have no personality or distinguishing characteristics besides their physical make up.... But it still wouldn't change the fact that it is a lifeless being. It's just a lifeless, personality lacking being with a different skin shade than the other mannequin.
Yes, but now consider that a human body and the structure it contains is vastly more complex than a plastic mannequin. A mannequin is very simple, and thus the differences between two identical mannequins, while recognizable, are fairly simple.

I chalked up the differences between two mannequins as being the sum of differences between their Mold (form, shape, structure), their Experience and their History. What if the complexity of the differences between two humans, though vastly more complex, are nothing more than the sum of the differences in their respective Mold, Experience and History?

Before you answer - how would a person KNOW if the diffrences were more than that? How would a person know if this concept of 'the individual' is something MORE than the sum of their genetics. their environment, their experiences and their history?


In the case of two people growing up in the inner city versus Beverly Hills, or two brothers growing up in the same house, etc. - in all of these cases, there are differences both in their genetic makeup (unless they're itentical twins), their environment (even identical twins differentiate, generally), and their experiences (due to their differences in personality as well as the dissimilar events in their lives).

The question for the bunch of you that brought up that kind of 'intuitive, yet illogical' argument - how do you know this SOULD is the thing that makes these individuals regognizeable as 'different', as opposed to their personality being wired into their physical bodies as a result of their genetic makeup, their experience and their history?

Why CAN'T it be just a biological phenomenon?


...that's the sort of logical argument I was talking about that the 'soul advocates' might want to attempt. It seems that several people really aren't getting the idea, there.

[master terrence]

Why CAN'T it be just a biological phenomenon?



Well, don't some idealist beleive that...

[Leader Desslock]

Most people won't like my answer, but I believe I have a soul... These things suggest to me the existence of something more than just a physical self....

ya, I know, my answer "sucks" and you probably don't like it.
Actually, I'm not advocating one side or the other, just trying to encourage everyone to examine their own thoughts and expressions more critically, and to phrase their answers more precisely. It's a decent enough answer, however the next questions I'd ask are "why do 'things' suggest the to you existence of more than a physical self? What's the process by which you reach that conclusion? Can you articulate it?"

As for what some idealists believe, eh, I'll leave it to them to explain if they come into the thread. ^_^

[superplough]

Actually the difference would be cellular proccesses like the metabolization of nutrients to make energy, and such.

By your reasoning, you're a mass murderer. Your body fights infection all the time, therefore, it's killing billions of microbes with "souls," right? And if you wash your hands, you're wiping out millions more of these "souls."

Heck, your definition implies that every cell in a multicellular organism is a sentient, conscious individual being capable of self-identification. Every time you scratch your skin, you're tearing away a million dead skin cells! You're just an organic murder-machine! :P
yup.

the only problem is human society deems the lives of said skin cells worthless and thus we DO kill a million of them without caring, or even thinking about it.

and its not like microbes are the only ones to go around killing others, all species do it. it's called the game of life.

[Lemina]

*sings Sunshine, lolipop, and rainbows*
That is a rather interesting view. Of course the world isnt all flowers and sugar.

I fo rone, have never 'felt' my soul. I believe what many humans believe as a soul is just more awareness of who they are, and their higher thinking capability. I would liek to see a deer contimplate his existance.

Oh, I'm not going there, and I don't appreciate how you make fun of me that way either. You Mr. Smart guy think you know everything. Maybe you never felt your soul because you have no faith in God whatsoever, and you don't care how others feel when you offend them. This thread deserves to be closed. This is a very delicate topic that sensitive people such as myself would be offended by. <_<

[Samurai Drifter]

Oh, I am not going there, and I don't appreciate how you make fun of me that way either. You Mr. Smart guy think you know everything. Maybe you never felt your soul because you have no faith in God whatsoever, and you don't care how others feel when you offend them. This thread deserves to be closed. This is a very delicate topic that sensitive people such as myself would be offended by. <_<
Um... if you are going to get offended by people having different viewpoints, then, I dunno, maybe you shouldn't get involved in debates. Not that you had anything to add anyway, beyond "ooh, I feel that I have a soul, and so anyone who doesn't is cold and heartless*! Lock this thread, because I'm offended that people disagree with me."

Geez, it's because of people like you that SD&D stays dead.

I've never felt a soul either, nor really anything that I think will never be explained by science.

*Not that I deny this.

[Animematt55]

Oh, I'm not going there, and I don't appreciate how you make fun of me that way either. You Mr. Smart guy think you know everything. Maybe you never felt your soul because you have no faith in God whatsoever, and you don't care how others feel when you offend them. This thread deserves to be closed. This is a very delicate topic that sensitive people such as myself would be offended by. <_<
i wasnt making fun of you, i was just pointing out that everything isnt always all good.

[Joeshie]

Even though I'm happy to see this thread still alive after a year, lets try to keep this civil guys.

[Samurai Drifter]

Yeah, very sensitive people like Lemina get offended by disagreement.

A worldview rooted in emotion is one without credibility.

[pickles133]

Even though I'm happy to see this thread still alive after a year, lets try to keep this civil guys.

[In high pitched falsetto] I'm watching you

[Lemina]

I've never felt a soul either, nor really anything that I think will never be explained by science.

*Not that I deny this.

You just said it yourself. As long as you don't believe in anything that is never explained by science, you are not going to feel your soul. There are some things that science can't explain, and religion is definitely a big part of it. People who don't have faith have hardly any emotion, therefore you just can't feel it. Life is what you make it to be, I'm happy with my life, and I try my best to live life to its fullest until the day I pass on. I'm sorry to have gotten involved in this thread in the first place. After first reading this topic, some initial posts really touched a soft spot in me. I am not going to get involved in any further discussion of this. >_<

[Joeshie]

People who don't have faith have hardly any emotion, therefore you just can't feel it.

Yeah, those aethiests are all emotionless, devoid zombies.

No offense, but just because we can't explain something right now, doesn't mean that 10, 50, or 100 years down the line, we still won't be able to explain it.

[Animematt55]

People who don't have faith have hardly any emotion, therefore you just can't feel it.
How insulting....so your saying if i don't believe in an imaginary being, or follow something blindly....i am nothing but an emotionless shell?

[Leader Desslock]

How insulting....so your saying if i don't believe in an imaginary being, or follow something blindly....i am nothing but an emotionless shell?
She's gone, Matt. Let it go. Consider it payment in full for your earlier lack of eloquence on the matter.

[pickles133]

This is the part where Matt should assert himself as the dominant e-penis carrier as his posts are 500 more than Leader Desslock

[Animematt55]

She's gone, Matt. Let it go. Consider it payment in full for your earlier lack of eloquence on the matter.
Yes sir
*Filler*

[pickles133]

Yes sir
*Filler*

Nice try but this time with more substance. Remember, you have the bigger e-penis so be proud of it

[Animematt55]

Nice try but this time with more substance. Remember, you have the bigger e-penis so be proud of it
your not banned yet?
Wellm if you stay her emuch longer...Leader Desslock is a god here. WHich is why he is LEADER desslock.

[meron_dori-ma]

What useless thread... But since I'm here, I'll put in my two cents.

We are all one soul. No details.

[Neo0tak0n]

your not banned yet?
Wellm if you stay her emuch longer...Leader Desslock is a god here. WHich is why he is LEADER desslock.

leader desslock is a false messiah. now, lesser dreadlock..........he is the true one as told in the ancient prophecies

[Kevin]

Pickles133 AKA Joeshie AKA Joeshie Returns. You are only allowed one account on the forums. Which of the 2 active that you have do you wish to keep?

P.S. Keep trolling and I will ban you with much glee!

[EmberAlchemist0]

Yes I believe we all have souls. I won't go into details..don't wanna cause any trouble. :)

[Leader Desslock]

leader desslock is a false messiah. now, lesser dreadlock..........he is the true one as told in the ancient prophecies
I'm glad SOMEONE's studied the ancient texts...

Pickles133 AKA Joeshie AKA Joeshie Returns. You are only allowed one account on the forums. Which of the 2 active that you have do you wish to keep?

<cut to a scene of a giant pickle standing in between a great dane, a heavyset girl in glasses, a taller girl in a minidress, a hippie munching on dog biscuits, a frat boy in an ascot and several police officers and local villagers>

Fred: Now let's find out who this Ghost Pickle REALLY is!

<the hippie pulls the mask off the giant pickle>

All: Joeshie?! But Why? How?

Joeshie/Ghost Pickle: I wanted to drive you away so that I could find the Treasure of the Lost Creator of Veggie Tales. I'd have gotten away with it, too - if it hadn't been for you meddling kids!

Daphne: Where YOU'RE going, you'll be watching Veggie Tales in black and white. Prison Uniforms, that is!

Scooby: Rat's a RIG rickle.

Daphne: You see - black and white. Like the stripes on a prison uniform. Get it?

Thelma: There wasn't much to get. And I'm not a lesbian.

Fred: Aren't prison uniforms orange, now?

Shaggy: Pickles, oranges... like, who cares, man? All ths talk of food is making me hungry. That reminds me, Scoob - I think I saw some extra cold cuts on the buffet table back at the hotel. Last one there misses out on the rotten eggs!

Scooby Roooo Ray!

<fade out to forced laughter from all>

[Soluzar]

You know, there's one thing of which I am certain. The revealed word of some greater power, if you will. We may, or may not have a soul... but we have a Soluzar. :naughty:

[Joeshie]

Pickles133 AKA Joeshie AKA Joeshie Returns. You are only allowed one account on the forums. Which of the 2 active that you have do you wish to keep?

P.S. Keep trolling and I will ban you with much glee!

We are posting from the same dorm room. Two computers in a dorm room share the same IP. So while it might appear that I am posting under two different names, I can guarentee that we are quite different people.

[{NG}Fidel]

What to you all defines a soul.
I find that in my life I have yet to put any words together that can outline what a 'soul' is.
Personaly I feel life is complex and on this issue I am swayed not one way or ther other.

[master terrence]

Actually, I'm not advocating one side or the other, just trying to encourage everyone to examine their own thoughts and expressions more critically, and to phrase their answers more precisely. It's a decent enough answer, however the next questions I'd ask are "why do 'things' suggest the to you existence of more than a physical self? What's the process by which you reach that conclusion? Can you articulate it?"

As for what some idealists believe, eh, I'll leave it to them to explain if they come into the thread. ^_^


Thank you for asking me the question in a dignified manner.

My answer to "why do things 'things' suggest to you an esxistance of something more than a physical self?" would be, I feel moved by it. I would never go into anything to personal on a forum, so I'll describe the feeling, and how I reached it with a simple occurence.

I'm sure many people will dub this as something completely un-related to my soul, but here goes. I was having a not so great day, and I was sleep deprived. I went for a run, it is something I do to escape drama- but that drama got me out of the house and set the mood, it has nothing to do with finding soul. It was a quiet day, all I could listen to was my breathing (to this day, I am not a fan of running with music). I warmed up to my usual spot and did my usual stretch. I had a good pace for the 800, and was feeling ok, and as I hit a dark 400m straight, my mind began to clear. It energized me, but not in the way biophilia engergizes, more in a meditative manner. It was like praying when I was running, and I was set free of inhibitions. Needless to say, it was not a day to forget. I didn't run amazing fast or anything, but I did what I needed to, and put in some more distance. I felt inner-peace. That's about as much articulation I can manage I think. It was like a spiritual consciousness, it felt like an epiphany. A good finding that improved me. I look forward to long runs. I'd say I was in commune with an inner-self, in communion with Someone.

I think, religous or not, the feeling of your soul can exist for anyone. (I mean to feel it, not to just feel you have it)


A rabbi by the name of Bill Blank once wrote:

You will go through fundamental alterations
in the quality of your experience.
Either spontaneously
or as a result of prayer,
meditation,
ritual,
song
or special foods
You will experience
great love,
wisdom,
serenity,
or connection
to a god
or nature.
Experiencing altered states of consciousness
will affect
all of your other experiences.
You will experience yourself
transformed
into a different being.

I thought it was pretty good and understood it.


edit: added detail.

[Holy Knight]

Do we have a soul?
That is a very good question.
But if you answer yes or no.
You lose your own soul.

And Terrence, I once felt the same thing, but I don't think it has anything spiritual linked to it. It's more as if the body is looking for it's usual source of energy supply from food and upon taping it, the endorphins released from the initial bout of running will converge to created a positive mood. Since your mood was then pretty negative, the effect is a balance of sorts, or peace if you want. That's the way I see it anyway and it was also the way it felt when I experienced it while running.

[Neo0tak0n]

well if you want a change of conciousness i recommend doing something other than running

[pickles133]

We are posting from the same dorm room. Two computers in a dorm room share the same IP. So while it might appear that I am posting under two different names, I can guarentee that we are quite different people.

Can't you tell from the fact I am so awesome and Joeshie is so lame that we are different entities? Do not make me strike you down with my 1D4 Gauntlet of Awesomeness for your impudence.

Note: Gauntlet of Awesomeness is much worse than a Banhammer these silly moderators have.

[Joeshie]

I'm sure many people will dub this as something completely un-related to my soul, but here goes. I was having a not so great day, and I was sleep deprived. I went for a run, it is something I do to escape drama- but that drama got me out of the house and set the mood, it has nothing to do with finding soul. It was a quiet day, all I could listen to was my breathing (to this day, I am not a fan of running with music). I warmed up to my usual spot and did my usual stretch. I had a good pace for the 800, and was feeling ok, and as I hit a dark 400m straight, my mind began to clear. It energized me, but not in the way biophilia engergizes, more in a meditative manner. It was like praying when I was running, and I was set free of inhibitions. Needless to say, it was not a day to forget. I didn't run amazing fast or anything, but I did what I needed to, and put in some more distance. I felt inner-peace. That's about as much articulation I can manage I think. It was like a spiritual consciousness, it felt like an epiphany. A good finding that improved me. I look forward to long runs. I'd say I was in commune with an inner-self, in communion with Someone.

It could have been a runner's high (http://www.lehigh.edu/~dmd1/sarah.html).

[Danzoh Katoh]

I'm glad SOMEONE's studied the ancient texts...



<cut to a scene of a giant pickle standing in between a great dane, a heavyset girl in glasses, a taller girl in a minidress, a hippie munching on dog biscuits, a frat boy in an ascot and several police officers and local villagers>

Fred: Now let's find out who this Ghost Pickle REALLY is!

<the hippie pulls the mask off the giant pickle>

All: Joeshie?! But Why? How?

Joeshie/Ghost Pickle: I wanted to drive you away so that I could find the Treasure of the Lost Creator of Veggie Tales. I'd have gotten away with it, too - if it hadn't been for you meddling kids!

Daphne: Where YOU'RE going, you'll be watching Veggie Tales in black and white. Prison Uniforms, that is!

Scooby: Rat's a RIG rickle.

Daphne: You see - black and white. Like the stripes on a prison uniform. Get it?

Thelma: There wasn't much to get. And I'm not a lesbian.

Fred: Aren't prison uniforms orange, now?

Shaggy: Pickles, oranges... like, who cares, man? All ths talk of food is making me hungry. That reminds me, Scoob - I think I saw some extra cold cuts on the buffet table back at the hotel. Last one there misses out on the rotten eggs!

Scooby Roooo Ray!

<fade out to forced laughter from all>

I bet some serious thought went into that. I don't think I'd have the patience to take the time to respond in that manner. :thumbsup:

[master terrence]

well if you want a change of conciousness i recommend doing something other than running no, I want my team to make it to states this year actually.

I don't get euphoria when I do training runs... I never get it as I mentioned above atleast. I've been running long distance for 4 year, been invited to 9 invitationals in just the past year alone. I'm one of the fastest half-marathon runners in my age group for the state of florida... so to put it simply, I can seperate euphoria from meditation. There is a difference of perception between the endorphins and soul finding.

I've only been in a euphoric state (as the examples in your link provided) in races, and it's been on rare occasions. Furthermore I said longer, not faster. I'm not an ultra-marathoner either, I'm not logging in distances where I couldn't go longer. (There is 110+ mile difference between an ultra-marathon and half-marathon).

Now with endorphin highs (this affects other athletes too), I can sometimes get one going... when I'm pissed. Frusturation aside, if I'm group running, and I don't like someone in the group, and get that endorphin high, I must beat them. As of recent I've been feeling down due to recent tragedies, thus occured another endorphin high. Believe me, there was no soul finding in that.

I think you guys are mis-understanding, don't try to argue that running can't be a spiritual movement. Scott Jurek (the Lance Armstrong of Running) credits his ableness to push through to running spirituality. It is not "runners high", but in fact "Zen running".

Although, I do think the spirituality of running does release endorphins after long periods of time. (it makes running sound so much easier when you say you get endorphin highs, but your body can only handle so much, and it takes quite a while to get "in to the zone" whether it be an intense (mental and Physical) warm-up, or the first 5k of the marathon. It isn't something that just turns on.

Ya, I know, I spend more time writing about running than the topic of souls <.<;;

[f0rest]

Off-topic #1: I doubt it is the sole intention of the mods to lock any thread which fosters intellgent discussion or offers a wide array of opinions. I believe the issue comes when too many people choose to patronize and ridicule other conflicting beliefs along the way (*FLAME ON*). Sometimes a person might not even know they are doing it, so it may be wise to use tame language for these "controversial topics". This thread only had a few snide remarks so I guess that's why it lives to see another day.

Off-topic #2: Desslock, I kind of owe you one. I am now on vol.2 of Ah, My Goddess! after you provided the name and anime of the character someone had as their avatar (Belldandy). Thanks:P

On-topic: I am an agnostic, but I do have an opinion which I will offer later.

[Rain]

no, I want my team to make it to states this year actually.

I don't get euphoria when I do training runs... I never get it as I mentioned above atleast. I've been running long distance for 4 year, been invited to 9 invitationals in just the past year alone. I'm one of the fastest half-marathon runners in my age group for the state of florida... so to put it simply, I can seperate euphoria from meditation. There is a difference of perception between the endorphins and soul finding.

I've only been in a euphoric state (as the examples in your link provided) in races, and it's been on rare occasions. Furthermore I said longer, not faster. I'm not an ultra-marathoner either, I'm not logging in distances where I couldn't go longer. (There is 110+ mile difference between an ultra-marathon and half-marathon).

Now with endorphin highs (this affects other athletes too), I can sometimes get one going... when I'm pissed. Frusturation aside, if I'm group running, and I don't like someone in the group, and get that endorphin high, I must beat them. As of recent I've been feeling down due to recent tragedies, thus occured another endorphin high. Believe me, there was no soul finding in that.

I think you guys are mis-understanding, don't try to argue that running can't be a spiritual movement. Scott Jurek (the Lance Armstrong of Running) credits his ableness to push through to running spirituality. It is not "runners high", but in fact "Zen running".

Although, I do think the spirituality of running does release endorphins after long periods of time. (it makes running sound so much easier when you say you get endorphin highs, but your body can only handle so much, and it takes quite a while to get "in to the zone" whether it be an intense (mental and Physical) warm-up, or the first 5k of the marathon. It isn't something that just turns on.

Ya, I know, I spend more time writing about running than the topic of souls <.<;;

And this has any relevance whatsoever to the subject at hand because...

Anyway, how does the release of endorphins have anything to do with one's soul? Endorphins are biochemical compounds, and the release of endorphins is a "natural" chemical process. Hence, this euphoric state of consciousness is chemically-induced.

Even though our definitions of the soul may differ slightly, I don't think any variation of the word "chemical" fits into its accurate definition.

[master terrence]

I was referring to Joeshie's post...

[Neo0tak0n]

Hence, this euphoric state of consciousness is chemically-induced.

All states of consciousness are chemically-induced.

[Rain]

All states of consciousness are chemically-induced.

Which is exactly why a soul doesn't exist.

Even the three supposed "ordinary" or "natural" states of pure consciousness (dreaming, waking, and sleeping) are chemically-induced.

(see also: Transcendental consciousness.)

[Danzoh Katoh]

If you want to know about the soul, then read the "His Dark Materials" trilogy.

[~*Yumi*~]

We cannot say that for sure...we don't know, we have no proof so...I'm not saying we do or don't...just saying...I have no flipping clue

[{NG}Fidel]

Uhm I was looking at something in the dark and it looked like a face but it was really a paper bag and I feel strongly that the face was the bags soul.
(Bored with thread)

[Danzoh Katoh]

^ :lol: Oh man, that had me laughing for what seemed like an eternity.

[Kevin K]

no we dont have souls, we are all living in hell right now!!!

[Perperikon010]

Ok, let me start off by saying that I only read arbitrary responses (most of which made me go “WTF?”, but that’s another topic).

To throw my own two cents in – I don’t think we have souls. I am unable to sense mine, or anyone else’s soul, therefore the “concept” of the soul remains only in the realm of my mind and cannot be experimentally proven. My mind in turn cannot rationalize the existence of a soul (standard definitions) therefore, unlike concepts like truth, infinity, etc., it remains only an idea.

*Plays “Good Vibrations” by the Beach Boys ^_^ *

[NyogoZ]

Maybe we are unable to detect our souls for a reason we aren't supposed to know.

[Perperikon010]

Sorry mate, but that's a cheap cop-out from rational discourse.

[Reidar]

How is that a cheap cop-out of anything? He's not obligated to even post in the topic.

[{NG}Fidel]

As much as rationality is important its also important that we recognize that we may have limitations and that we dont know everything.
We need an even balance of wild dreamers and rational thinkers as they fuel eazch other.

[NyogoZ]

Hey, I'm just saying it's a possiblity. I'm not really concrete with the idea myself.