The dreaded "C" word!!

[White hell]

I found that certain anime fans hate it when anime is reffered to as "Cartoons" why is that?

[Leader Desslock]

Beats me. I think they need to switch to decaf, quite frankly.

[Suikoden6880]

Well, I dont hate it but I do like correct people at times.....(Darn adv. english class....)

[Balboa]

meh..I dunno. I guess because it would seem to some that you'd be placing anime into the same boat as other forms of animation (like american cartoons)...which still doesn't make much sense to me. Sorry to chime in.

[seba_boi]

Wow... I looked up "cartoon" in dictionary.com and it gave me this:

car·toon
n.

A drawing depicting a humorous situation, often accompanied by a caption.
A drawing representing current public figures or issues symbolically and often satirically: a political cartoon.
A preliminary sketch similar in size to the work, such as a fresco, that is to be copied from it.
An animated cartoon.
A comic strip.
A ridiculously oversimplified or stereotypical representation: criticized the actor's portrayal of Jefferson as a historically inaccurate cartoon.

v. car·tooned, car·toon·ing, car·toons
v. tr.
To draw a humorous or satirical representation of; caricature.

v. intr.
To make humorous or satirical drawings.

.... Then it gave me this for "anime":
an·i·me
n.
A style of animation developed in Japan, characterized by stylized colorful art, futuristic settings, violence, and sex.

[White hell]

meh..I dunno. I guess because it would seem to some that you'd be placing anime into the same boat as other forms of animation (like american cartoons)...which still doesn't make much sense to me. .

But Anime is animation so are cartoons?

[Sushikins]

I only get offended when they mean it as a way of degrading it.

[USMC2Hard4U]

Its not a bad thing to call them cartoons.... I mean, in a manner of speaking. Thats what they are. Just the American Title of it. Either way its all Animation.

My Dad Goes... These look like cool cartoons man. What does it matter to him what he calls it, you get the point on what it is.

[KT Kore]

Because when most people think of cartoons they think of stuff like Spongebob or Rugrats or [insert animated show aimed at really young kids]. And most teenagers or adults who watch anime don't want to be grouped up with that. It's not that hard to understand and it's fairly understandable.

[Balboa]

But Anime is animation so are cartoons?

Yeah, I guess what I'm trying to say is that, because japanese animation is called 'anime' they don't want to hear it refered to as a cartoon. Since other forms of animation aren't referred to anything else but 'cartoons'.

I'm just guessing. But, it doesn't bother me.

Because when most people think of cartoons they think of stuff like Spongebob or Rugrats or [insert animated show aimed at really young kids]. And most teenagers or adults who watch anime don't want to be grouped up with that. It's not that hard to understand and it's fairly understandable.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say White hell. ^_^

[LOSTyears]

Some people are just to sensitive, just ignore it.

[Death's Realm]

When I saw the title "The dreaded "C" word!!", I thought to myself:Why in god's name isnt this locked!?!?!

[Loopy]

Anime fans need a reason to feel superior and elitist.

[Irons]

There really is no dictionary definition of anime in English, but it has come to mean Japanese animation. In reality it's just the Japanese word for cartoon. The reason anime fans are so tight-assed about it is probably because they don't want other people looking down on them for watching cartoons, but really it isn't wrong to call them that. Hell, when people ask me what I have on my shelf I tell them Japanse cartoons because it's easier than explaining what anime is if they don't know.

[Cow]

Some people feel that when you refer to anime as 'cartoons' it takes away its seriousness. Quite frankly anime falls under cartoons but I can understand how some would take offence because they dont want to be 'children' watching cartoons. Anime is a more grown up word for animation not literly but if you read inbetween the lines you'll know what I mean. Although alot of anime is geared towards kids so yea, but alot isnt so there.

[TheUprightMan83]

I thought that this thread was about ****.

[xxdreamergirlxx]

To me, cartoons have the connotation of something that is just for children, while anime doesn't.

[Lady Hellsing]

I only get offended when they mean it as a way of degrading it.

Same here.

[Levon]

The truth hurts some fans.


To me, cartoons have the connotation of something that is just for children, while anime doesn't.

South Park, Spawn & Family Guy are cartoons, guess they are just for children:rolleyes:

[EternityOfPain]

When I saw the title "The dreaded "C" word!!", I thought to myself:Why in god's name isnt this locked!?!?!

Thats hilarious!! :lol: :lol:


Regarding the thread: I don't seem to mind people calling it cartoons because it is. I simple remember the good old cartoons like ren and stimpy ^_^

[xxdreamergirlxx]

The truth hurts some fans.

South Park, Spawn & Family Guy are cartoons, guess they are just for children:rolleyes:
I know that, but they aren't what most of America would think of when they think cartoons..... yet. :naughty: I really couldn't care less what people call what I watch... I was just giving an example for why it would upset some people, not necessarily me. C'mon, I collect Care Bears and Hello Kitty still :P If people want, they can find plenty of other "childish" things that I like to make fun of me for.

[Hexon.Arq]

People who are afraid of being grouped with children are insecure about their own weak sense of maturity. Children are the highest form of life on the planet; I would be proud of the association if it could be aptly made. "I don't watch cartoons; I'm not a kid," can be a preferential statement, or an indicator that someone is trying hard to prove they're "growed up". Otherwise there's nothing to be ashamed of.

My favorite American cartoon is Arthur, BTW.

[EternityOfPain]

People who are afraid of being grouped with children are insecure about their own weak sense of maturity. Children are the highest form of life on the planet; I would be proud of the association if it could be aptly made. "I don't watch cartoons; I'm not a kid," can be a preferential statement, or an indicator that someone is trying hard to prove they're "growed up". Otherwise there's nothing to be ashamed of.

My favorite American cartoon is Arthur, BTW.

Um, you talk extremely big for a person who is only 8, either you have a person who types for you or maybe you wrote down your date of birth wrong perhaps?

[Hexon.Arq]

It's not wrong, but I'm not eight.

[smrats]

I dislike it when people call anime cartoons to be rude, but if they just call them cartoons because they are cartoons then I don't care.
After all - anime has Panyo Panyo DiGiCharat, Hello Kitty, BeyBlade, etc. There's no point in denying that some of it isn't for kids. The ones that get flustered over anime being cartoons seem to believe that anime is all serious and for mature viewers.
It's not.
For example: Some movies are serious, some aren't. I can say that I'm going to the movies and not have people thinking just, "chick-flick" or "porno", so why can't I call anime "cartoons" without people jumping down my throat insisting that it's making it seem as though anime is only for kids?

[Hexon.Arq]

Who would jump down your throat for that? Screw them! They're boring. I don't want you hanging around with boring people. You will avoid them from now on. I command you.

[Maxximo]

Come on people The "C" word what! No matter how you see it, Anime is Cartoons people. People ask me what am I watching I tell Japanese Cartoons not Anime because what is Anime... Answer "Cartoons made in Japan" lesson over for today bye, bye

[Leader Desslock]

You know what's amusing? Like lots of you, I've head quite a few anime fans get upset when the word 'cartoon' is used to describe Japanese animation. Its seen as a derogatory term, even when you're talking about some little bit of fluff animation aimed at children, like the original Dragonball. (which I like, by the way)

And yet - I've never personally heard a fan of American animation get upset when people use the word 'cartoon' to describe the older Warner Bros. work, The Simpsons, Family Guy, Tex Avery's work, The Dot And The Line, Watership Down, Wizards, Top Cat, The Flintstones, and all kinds of other things that were aimed at a more adult audience.

Huh. Go figure.

[BrendantheJedi]

You know what's amusing? Like lots of you, I've head quite a few anime fans get upset when the word 'cartoon' is used to describe Japanese animation. Its seen as a derogatory term, even when you're talking about some little bit of fluff animation aimed at children, like the original Dragonball. (which I like, by the way)

And yet - I've never personally heard a fan of American animation get upset when people use the word 'cartoon' to describe the older Warner Bros. work, The Simpsons, Family Guy, Tex Avery's work, The Dot And The Line, Watership Down, Wizards, Top Cat, The Flintstones, and all kinds of other things that were aimed at a more adult audience.

Huh. Go figure.You know, that is odd. Perhaps we Otakus are biased towards Anime?

[smrats]

Who would jump down your throat for that? Screw them! They're boring. I don't want you hanging around with boring people. You will avoid them from now on. I command you.

XD Aye aye, Cap'n.

[EternityOfPain]

It's not wrong, but I'm not eight.

Please explain to me then if your birthday is February 14, 1997 and its July 7, 2005 its impossible for you to be any older then 8. Please show me where my math is wrong, 2005-1997 = 8.

[Hexon.Arq]

Hexon.Arq was born on February 14, 1997.

[EternityOfPain]

Hexon.Arq was born on February 14, 1997.

Ok, fine Hexon.Arq is 8 years old but you aren't. Makes perfect sense.

[Leader Desslock]

You know, that is odd. Perhaps we Otakus are biased towards Anime?
Both sides are biased toward the object of their hobby, but I have to appreciate the irony. The people who will tell you they're watching the more 'mature' entertainment are the ones that often behave less maturely when the word 'cartoon' is used to describe it. If anime really is the hobby of the more 'mature' viewer, wouldn't you expect anime viewers be more laid back about the words used to describe it?

[Boomhauer]

i dont really care. I will add one thing though...

Wow... I looked up "cartoon" in dictionary.com and it gave me this:


.... Then it gave me this for "anime":


According to that definition, cartoons are pretty much just the 2D art form and animation is those 2D forms rendered to a 3D-esque enviornment and form. also, that is not really a good definition of anime either. as discussed in the "ask john" section many times, anime is simply the word the japanese use to describe animation. other countries have adopted that foreign word to describe the unique style of Japan's animation in our own language. so in its most rudimentary form, anime/animations are cartoons until they are animated. also, that definition includes "animated cartoon" as an explanation, but as it is a definition, it neglects to explain that at least in the U.S., the cultural development of animation has, until recently, nearly entirely encompassed our youth and the word "cartoon" has come to most commonly denote (but is not limited to) entertainment for children on TV, etc., rather than the general populace, as it has in Japan. i think that covers it pretty well. i hope it doesnt read like big bumbling rant.....

[Maxximo]

You know what's amusing? Like lots of you, I've head quite a few anime fans get upset when the word 'cartoon' is used to describe Japanese animation. Its seen as a derogatory term, even when you're talking about some little bit of fluff animation aimed at children, like the original Dragonball. (which I like, by the way)

And yet - I've never personally heard a fan of American animation get upset when people use the word 'cartoon' to describe the older Warner Bros. work, The Simpsons, Family Guy, Tex Avery's work, The Dot And The Line, Watership Down, Wizards, Top Cat, The Flintstones, and all kinds of other things that were aimed at a more adult audience.

Huh. Go figure.
I belive Anime fanboys/fangirls think that anything from Japan is a god sense. I mean on this other thread some people are just whinning about why there should or shouldn't have dark-skin people in Anime. I just find this really stuip and a bit immature on ther part.

[Matt-a-Tastic]

I think its because they want to differeniate cartoons and anime, which is understandable really. They are totally different forms of media really.

Allthough its still anoying when otakus spaz about it <_<

[Leader Desslock]

They are totally different forms of media really.

Hmm....

Medium: A specific kind of artistic technique or means of expression as determined by the materials used or the creative methods involved: the medium of lithography.

Anime and cartoons are both a story being told by the sequential projection of drawn images, accompanied by a matched soundtrack which generally contains character dialogue, sound effects and a musical score.

Actually, it sounds like they're exactly the same medium to me.

Harry Potter, Catch-22 and Don Quixote differ in terms of their content, but they're all still novels. How are The Flintstones, Cardcaptor Sakura, Watership Down, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Spawn, Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo, Ren & Stimpy, Appleseed, The Transformers and The Mysterious Cities of Gold any different? Whether we decide to call them anime, animation or cartoons, they're all the same thing, right?

[Soluzar]

Harry Potter, Catch-22 and Don Quixote differ in terms of their content, but they're all still novels. How are The Flintstones, Cardcaptor Sakura, Watership Down, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Spawn, Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo, Ren & Stimpy, Appleseed, The Transformers and The Mysterious Cities of Gold any different? Whether we decide to call them anime, animation or cartoons, they're all the same thing, right?

No. If you really can't tell the difference between The Flintstones, on one hand and, lets say Cardcaptor Sakura, on the other, then you aren't the Leader Desslock I've become familiar with. What fun do you get out of this game, and why are you playing it?

EDIT: I would hasten to add that I love American Cartooons, and even Japanese/French co-productions like MCoG. However, they aren't the same thing as anime. MCoG is perhaps the same thing as anime, near enough, but The Flintstones couldn't be more different, and it is a difference of intent.

[master terrence]

The truth hurts some fans.
South Park, Spawn & Family Guy are cartoons, guess they are just for children:rolleyes:



1.
1. A drawing depicting a humorous situation, often accompanied by a caption.
2. A drawing representing current public figures or issues symbolically and often satirically: a political cartoon.
2. A preliminary sketch similar in size to the work, such as a fresco, that is to be copied from it.
3. An animated cartoon.
4. A comic strip.
5. A ridiculously oversimplified or stereotypical representation: criticized the actor's portrayal of Jefferson as a historically inaccurate cartoon.


it still fits the description, just like ren and stimpy... the first animated cartoon by disney was aimed towards children, and its true stuff like family guy is aimed at the http://www.mpaa.org/tv/images/Tv14.gif kinda audience just like anime is, but I still haven't seen an american cartoon that was like "cowboy bebop" or "trigun" or "fighting spirit". American cartoons are meant for comedy, in the depression it was a way of entertainment.. in the depression do you think people wanted to see something complex and depressing.. NO! Don't get me wrong, cartoons are good and funny, but you can't evolve them into your own thing and make them out to be anime.. Anime is anime.. cartoons are cartoons, not the same no matter how you study it, they even have different backrounds.

[Leader Desslock]

No. If you really can't tell the difference between The Flintstones, on one hand and, lets say Cardcaptor Sakura...

I can tell the difference between Cardcaptor Sakura and The Flintstones - The Flintstones was clearly targeted toward an older audience with a more sophisticated sense of humor. Your point? :)

I'm not playing a game at all. I can tell the difference, but since that difference lies in the content, rather than the medium, I thought the correction was appropriate.

[master terrence]

I can tell the difference between Cardcaptor Sakura and The Flintstones - The Flintstones was clearly targeted toward an older audience with a more sophisticated sense of humor. Your point? :)

I'm not playing a game at all. I can tell the difference, but since that difference lies in the content, rather than the medium, I thought the correction was appropriate.


There are animes that are directed at kids just like cartoons are. There are cartoons directed at adults like animes are. It's not the maturity of the audience that distinguishes Anime from American cartoons its what the audience wants. To call American cartoons an Anime is a lie, no matter the age or the content. Even the art styles are different. Now because American cartoons are geared towards comedy and Anime is a more complex genre not limited to comedy, but includes drama... romance.... mecha... etc. It comes off as something that is for adults(therefore it seems more mature).


Cartoons are doing different things than Anime is what I'm trying to say T.T the audience's can vary it dosen't matter.

[Loopy]

It's not the maturity of the audience that distinguishes Anime from American cartoons its what the audience wants...It comes off as something that is for adults(therefore it seems more mature).

Otaku that have the maturity of an adult? Wow...they must be like the leprechaun's pot o' gold :)

[seba_boi]

The truth hurts some fans.


This quote perfectly matches your AV...

[Soran]

I don't like it when anime are associated with cartoons in any way mostly because I find typical cartoons ( or what is usually called "cartoons" ) plain ugly. I don't want to offend cartoons fans, I just don't find catoons beatiful at all.

Sure there are some anime that I don't consider beautiful either, but rarely is the art style in an anime as repulsive (for me) as your common cartoon art style.

Just like others who posted before me, I also tell my friends that I watch Japanese animation if they have no clue what is anime, but sure one can notice the affection in my voice, and I don't forget to explain that I don't like common non-Japanese animation at all.

By the way, there is one animated film ( not Japanese ) that I loved as child and even later. But all this was before I discovered anime. The more I watch anime, the more ugly the common cartoons appear to me, especially character design. So even though I don't hate this one special animated film, its characters look quite weird for me now >.<


Anime is indeed a completely different world. How many adult people are collecting your common cartoons and almost live in them? It's not just because Japanese are so weird and even western anime fans copy them. I see anime as virtual reality, something that invites you to be a part of it, not just an entertainment.


What is the medium? Pencil and paper? Computer? Anime style and Japanese culture are so different that for me the medium is rather kawaii & moe, not animation or comics ( though I realize that in many anime "kawaii" is not the most important attribute ( for example in Hokuto no Ken ), but there are other unique anime attributes too, I just can't find the right words for them now... )


It's sad that so many people here talk about otaku disrespectful.
I don't think that I'm real otaku though... I just don't like this world, I never liked it. And sadly many striking examples of what I hate in this world can be found even in this very thread. I'm sure I'll be able to find some terms for your God, religons or whatever you love in this world, some terms that you would hate even though they would be perfectly logical. Just because the connotation is wrong. I don't believe in God, but why couldn't anime be my religion? Whatever people consider as sanctum - one should just respect it. Sure there should be places for people who make fun of religion too, but a christian forum is definitely not the right place for them. I for one would rather be in a forum where anime is regarded a little bit like sanctum.


P.S.
I find it stange that the one who started this thread uses Mutio's picture as ava,
isn't BS6 the best example of what "cartoon" does NOT stand for?
( I love this anime, had Mutio's picture as ava for quite a while )

[Alisstiss]

You know why we hate it when they call Anime cartoons? Because American childrens cartoons have become one big gay parade. Anime is NOT gay whatsoever.

[Leader Desslock]

...It's not the maturity of the audience that distinguishes Anime from American cartoons its what the audience wants.
Interesting. So if the difference lies in what the audience wants, and a viewer (like me) wants the same things from anime as from cartoons (entertainment), then there is effectively no difference (for me) between the two? Good! Glad to know I'm not wrong.

...To call American cartoons an Anime is a lie.
No, 'cartoon' is just a word. And if I us that word to mean 'animation' as the Japanese do, I'm neither wrong nor right for doing so. And if you use it to mean 'Japanese animation', then you're neither wrong nor right for doing so. But if neither of us is wrong nor right, why is it you object to the use of that term? Or so I assume, since you've implied I'd be a liar for doing so.

Now because American cartoons are geared towards comedy and Anime is a more complex genre not limited to comedy, but includes drama... romance.... mecha... etc. It comes off as something that is for adults(therefore it seems more mature).
Interesting that you should use a subjective term like 'seems'. If something 'seems to be', then that implies a viewer to whom it can 'seem'. Therefore I'd amend your statement to say anime 'seems more mature to you.' That which seems mature to you does not necessarily seem so to others.

Comedy is generally harder to write than drama. To write a comedy (like The Flintstones, George of the Jungle, The Incredibles or Bullwinkle) that works on many levels (for children and adults) is extremely complex. I could just as easily say that comedy is a more advanced form of entertainment, and therefore 'seems more mature' to me. And I'd be right, or at least,, I'd be as right as anyone who thought differently.

...Cartoons are doing different things than Anime is what I'm trying to say.
And as I pointed out, the fact that Harry Potter is doing something different than Don Quixote, that doesn't mean they're not both novels. Likewise, Cardcaptor Sakura and The Flintstones are both cartoons to me. Darned good cartoons, I might add.

It's sad that so many people here talk about otaku disrespectful.
What I find sad is that so many otaku talk about cartoons disrespectfully.

EDIT: I had to add...
Anime is NOT gay whatsoever.
I'm sorry, but that's one of the funniest things I've read in a long time. I like anime, but to put a blanket generalization out there about a form of popular entertainment is just supremely ignorant. I'm pretty sure that if you broaden your social circle just a tiny bit, there are in fact people out there who do in fact feel that animation in general is 'gay', however you meant the term. :lol:

[Soran]

I respectfully disagree with you, Alisstiss.

If you mean homosexual innuendo - there are such anime as Gravitation, Kyou Kara Maou and Meine Liebe.
( i'll take away "homsexual innuendo" and replace it with shounen ai / yaoi if any shounen ai fans are offended )

I you mean just "bad" or "lame", may be you could be more specific ^_~


What I find sad is that so many otaku talk about cartoons disrespectfully.Otaku = person, cartoon = not. Talking disrespectful about ones favorite genre is a bit different from talking disrespectful about him/herself.

[jeanlouisjr]

^^he probably meant horrible
i hate it when anime is associated with cartoons*shudders*

is because cartoons are animated and ppl misconcept that

[Alisstiss]

I respect Yaoi/Yuri and Shounen/Shojo ai but it's because it has actual story to the romance (like Gravitation, one of my favorite animes). Cartoons are just...gay. Like on the news they said Spongebob encouraged homosexual relationships.

[Leader Desslock]

To you, and to all of the other people who judge 'cartoons' by Spongebob Squarepants - would you appreciate it if everyone judged all of anime by watching M.D.Geist? All Hollywood movies by Battlefield Earth? All news media by The Weekly World News? All television by Fear Factor? All American music by Brittany Spears?

If none of those judgemets sound fair, then could you please limit your criticism of American cartoons to those titles worthy of some level of critical attention? And if you don't know any, then could you please go watch some BEFORE you condemn cartoons for being inane children's fluff? 'Cause you sound quite ignorant otherwise.

[Alisstiss]

What about Beavis and Butthead? Smurfs? Disney movies? Simpsons?
Honestly, if it's not gay, it's stupid or ignorant. Or sexist.

[Leader Desslock]

What about Wizards? Or Watership Down? Tex Avery? Any of those gay, stupid, ignorant or sexist? No? (Well, okay, I'm sure some of Text Avery's stuff was sexist, but no more so than the culture at the time, except as part of a joke)

And the Simpsons? Not very far underneath the comic exterior is wry social commentary as solid as what you'l see on The Daily Show. As for comments like 'Oh, they look all cartoony and yellow' - of course they do. The Simpsons couldn't have gotten away with a tenth of the stuff they've pulled over the last decade if they had a realistic look. Look at how many times The Family Guy has been cancelled.

As for Disney features, pick one of the better ones and state a specific criticism. It's too broad a field otherwise.

The Smurfs were Dutch, I thought. As for Beavis and Butthead - yea, they're as bad as some anime I could name, like Super Milk Chan. We could go back and forth all day. Your point?

[Shakuras]

I respect Yaoi/Yuri and Shounen/Shojo ai but it's because it has actual story to the romance (like Gravitation, one of my favorite animes). Cartoons are just...gay. Like on the news they said Spongebob encouraged homosexual relationships.


.................so you're saying yaoi/yuri doesn't encourage homosexuality? :rolleyes:

[master terrence]

Interesting. So if the difference lies in what the audience wants, and a viewer (like me) wants the same things from anime as from cartoons (entertainment), then there is effectively no difference (for me) between the two? Good! Glad to know I'm not wrong.

... so you look to american cartoons for the same thing you like to Anime for, well in that case thats all Anime is limited to. All hail leader desslock :P because he likes comedy all anime and cartoons are the same, T.T well I think that cartoons are made only to portray comedy(since all of them do) its in their history. The 2 hit in different areas.. if you can't see that then I suggest you wear a cup.

No, 'cartoon' is just a word. And if I us that word to mean 'animation' as the Japanese do, I'm neither wrong nor right for doing so. And if you use it to mean 'Japanese animation', then you're neither wrong nor right for doing so. But if neither of us is wrong nor right, why is it you object to the use of that term? Or so I assume, since you've implied I'd be a liar for doing so.

You can interpret the word however you feal.. but the history is still there, anime was seperated from western roots by the first creators of anime in the 1920's = "American cartoons place characters in situations; anime places situations around characters...anime characters are not like fictional characters but more like fictional people; their actions stem directly from their personalities, and not just as a means to move the story's plot forward...we are made to sympathize with them, and not simply be entertained by them..." ~John Oppliger~
.
it still fits the description, just like ren and stimpy... the first animated cartoon by disney was aimed towards children, and its true stuff like family guy is aimed at the http://www.mpaa.org/tv/images/Tv14.gif kinda audience just like anime is, but I still haven't seen an american cartoon that was like "cowboy bebop" or "trigun" or "fighting spirit". American cartoons are meant for comedy, in the depression it was a way of entertainment.. in the depression do you think people wanted to see something complex and depressing.. NO! Don't get me wrong, cartoons are good and funny, but you can't evolve them into your own thing and make them out to be anime.. Anime is anime.. cartoons are cartoons, not the same no matter how you study it, they even have different backrounds.


Interesting that you should use a subjective term like 'seems'. If something 'seems to be', then that implies a viewer to whom it can 'seem'. Therefore I'd amend your statement to say anime 'seems more mature to you.' That which seems mature to you does not necessarily seem so to others.

what is seeminly the result of observation :P



What I find sad is that so many otaku talk about cartoons disrespectfully.

well I'm suprised you've never seen American cartoon fans disrespect Anime :blink: Both require alot of work to create, but they are different, I'm not saying anime is better than cartoons just to clear that up.

[Soran]

well I'm suprised you've never seen American cartoon fans disrespect Anime :blink: Both require alot of work to create, but they are different, I'm not saying anime is better than cartoons just to clear that up.Just to clear up: I didn't say that cartoons are poorly made or lack of any values either.
I just meant that I don't find them beautiful or fascinating at all.
I don't think that it's an inappropriate bashing,
at least in a forum that's called animenation and not toonnation.
It served just the purpose of explaination why I don't like it when anime are called toons.

[Loopy]

And Terrence has pretty much proven my point about the myth of the mature otaku and why such people aren't meant to be taken seriously.

[Maxximo]

You know why we hate it when they call Anime cartoons? Because American childrens cartoons have become one big gay parade. Anime is NOT gay whatsoever.
I disagree... You can find American Cartoons which isn't children material. Or is you just using that as a augmant(sp). I also fun some Anime which you could call "gay". Both country animation have bad series and good ones, you just not giving it a chance (american cartoon) wise.......

[Alisstiss]

Cartoons make fun of everything and anime makes fun of everything in a smart way. I have yet to see a stupid anime character.

[Loopy]

Cartoons make fun of everything and anime makes fun of everything in a smart way. I have yet to see a stupid anime character.

Every single token love interest that has no personality or brains whatsoever and whines and is preachy, every single angsty villain who is evil because 'T3H H00MANS ARE 3V1L!!1111', and all the characters from Rurouni Kenshin.

[Leader Desslock]

... so you look to american cartoons for the same thing you like to Anime for...because he likes comedy all anime and cartoons are the same
If you're going to quote me, at least try to do it correctly. I said I look to both cartoons and anime for entertainment. At what point did comedy become the only type of entertainment? I didn't get that memo.

What other purpose would anime serve? Or do you think that watching Neon Genesis Evangelion should be some sort of religious experience for me. Nope. Not gonna happen. I watch it to be entertained. If I want to learn something, I'll find clearer, more informative and less weird sources, thankyouverymuch.

I think that cartoons are made only to portray comedy(since all of them do) its in their history.
With all respect to Mr. Oppliger, that might've been their origin, but I think the medium exceed its original 'humorous political and social commentary' when the term 'Saturday Morning Cartoons' came into vogue. I'd have trouble finding the social relevance of something like Johnny Quest, but nobody questions whether it's a cartoon or not. It's not a comedy, either. Just so you know.

The 2 hit in different areas.. if you can't see that then I suggest you wear a cup.
AGAIN, it's not that I can't see a difference between Cowboy Bebop and Jabberjaw. But I think they're both (from dictionary.com) 'a film made by photographing a series of cartoon drawings to give the illusion of movement when projected in rapid sequence' with accompanying sound, for the purposes of entertainment viewing. The difference I see don't mean anything significant, and certainly don't justify anything like an elitist attitude coming from either side of the fence on this issue. I'm not calling you (or anyone) stupid for wanting to use the word 'anime' in whatever context you want. Why should I be called stupid for including Japanese animation when I say 'cartoons'?

well I'm suprised you've never seen American cartoon fans disrespect Anime
What I said was: "I've never personally heard a fan of American animation get upset when people use the word 'cartoon' to describe...all kinds of other things that were aimed at a more adult audience."

I've heard cartoon fans make fun of anime. For example, the whole "big eye/weird hair color" thing. But I've heard non-cartoon fans make the same remarks.

[Alisstiss]

And in every animated disney movie, poor girl or guy falls in love with prince/princess, finds something with magical powers, abusing the poor thing (I'm thinking Genie) and a villan comes up to try to take over the world with magical item or person and the hero/heroine defeats the villan and starts making out with prince/princess. Case closed.

[Maxximo]

Cartoons make fun of everything and anime makes fun of everything in a smart way. I have yet to see a stupid anime character.
I have once you start watching alot of anime series you will find stuip character. The only differents I see with American and Japanese animation is that japan animation (cartoon) studio have a bigger budget(sp) then American studio does.

Bigger budget = better animation

[EternityOfPain]

Otaku = person, cartoon = not. Talking disrespectful about ones favorite genre is a bit different from talking disrespectful about him/herself.

Um, first off Otaku means house get it straight :P

[Loopy]

And in every animated disney movie, poor girl or guy falls in love with prince/princess, finds something with magical powers, abusing the poor thing (I'm thinking Genie) and a villan comes up to try to take over the world with magical item or person and the hero/heroine defeats the villan and starts making out with prince/princess. Case closed.

1. No

2. Disney movies !=All of American animation

[Leader Desslock]

I have yet to see a stupid anime character.
Then you haven't watched much anime. Here's one: Sotatsu, the Martial Arts Calligrapher from Ranma 1/2. I defy you to justify the creation of that character, from a standpoint of Ranma's situational comedy and what Sotatsu adds to the show as a whole.

And in every animated disney movie, poor girl or guy falls in love with prince/princess, finds something with magical powers, abusing the poor thing (I'm thinking Genie) and a villan comes up to try to take over the world with magical item or person and the hero/heroine defeats the villan and starts making out with prince/princess. Case closed.
Case reopened. The defence would like to introduce Jungle Book and Treasure Planet into evidence. There are more, but those are the two off the top of my head.

[Alisstiss]

I'm not allowed to watch Ranma 1/2.

[Soluzar]

I can tell the difference between Cardcaptor Sakura and The Flintstones - The Flintstones was clearly targeted toward an older audience with a more sophisticated sense of humor. Your point? :)
My point is that the Flintstones was purely a sit-com and nothing more. CCS had an ongoing story arc with character development. So does Futurama. I don't call either of those two "cartoons", I call them animation.

I'm not playing a game at all. I can tell the difference, but since that difference lies in the content, rather than the medium, I thought the correction was appropriate.

I'd say that the difference also lies in the intent of the creator. The intent of a creator who sets out to make cartoons usually is to make something funny. Animation can be serious. Even the dictionary agrees that cartoons = comedy.

I suppose the correction is appropriate when looked at in that light, but I would suggest that the humourous content is intrinsic to the definition of "cartoon".

[Leader Desslock]

My point is that the Flintstones was purely a sit-com and nothing more.
So is Ranma 1/2. One of the best ever written, in my opinion - on the level of something like Seinfeld or Newhart. But we still call it anime, don't we? So if it's the same thing as the Flintstones, then either the Flintstones is anime, or Ranma 1/2 is a cartoon. Either way, I don't see the distinction.

The Flintstones did have an overall story arc, although such a thing wasn't completely planned out before the series was aired. But there were multi-part episodes, cliffhangers, and the characters evolved, eventually having children, joining the Water Buffalo Lodge, etc. As the show progressed, elements that added to the show were kept and woven into the fabric.

[Alisstiss]

Case reopened. The defence would like to introduce Jungle Book and Treasure Planet into evidence. There are more, but those are the two off the top of my head.
I hate musicals. I really do hate musicals. Too much music in disney movies.

[Loopy]

I hate musicals. I really do hate musicals. Too much music in disney movies.

And what does this have to do with anything?

[Alisstiss]

He reopened the case that Disney movies are cartoons and people mistake cartoons for anime and when I watched an anime movie a kid made fun of me and said that I liked Disney movies.

[Loopy]

He reopened the case that Disney movies are cartoons and people mistake cartoons for anime and when I watched an anime movie a kid made fun of me and said that I liked Disney movies.

No, he said that not all Disney movies fit the stereotype you listed and then you posted an out of place comment about musicals which really isn't a rebuttal at all.

[Alisstiss]

I consider Disney movies animated musicals.

[Leader Desslock]

Ah, now we get to it. You hate Disney movies because you dislike musicals, not because they're gay, stupid, ignorant or sexist, nor because they all match some stereotype. Now I get it. You know, you might have said so from the beginning and saved some thread space.

[Shakuras]

Ah, now we get to it. You hate Disney movies because you dislike musicals, not because they're gay, stupid, ignorant or sexist, nor because they all match some stereotype. Now I get it. You know, you might have said so from the beginning and saved some thread space.

You get it? I'm still confused. :blink: I'm guessing this was the idea.

[Alisstiss]

All right, we got past that. But what about every OTHER friggin' cartoon in America that people think are the best thing since sliced bread.

[Leader Desslock]

How does this differ from the way in which some people think every animation that comes out of Japan is the best thing since sashimi? There's ignorant folks on both sides of the fence there.

There's plenty of good and bad animation on both sides of the Pacific. Anyone who looks at the good on one side without remembering the bad is selectively ignorant. The same can be said for anyone who points out the bad without remembering the good.

For some reason, I think the folks who hate the 'C' word when applied to Japanese animation are those folks who simultaneously: 1) See the good in Japanese animation without focusing on the bad, and 2) See the bad in American animation without remembering the good. The former trait I find amusing, especially given the number of hate threads on this board. How can anyone forget the clunkers in Japanese animation when you're reminded of it by at least three threads a week?

[Alisstiss]

I have yet to see bad anime. All cartoons suck increcible *ss.

[master terrence]

2^because it can get old and exhausting I'll reply with something more meaningful tommorow, I'm not against cartoons I just don't think Anime should be called Cartoons, whats wrong with that? Thats how I feal, theese genre's of art date back to the early 1900's, I think they deserve and have earned seperate genre's.


^ http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=176788

[Kaiga]

Beats me. I think they need to switch to decaf, quite frankly.
well, I for one drink regular, but when someone says its a cartoon I don't go terrorizing the city, opening portals to hell, blowing up skyscrapers, I just get a bit ticked. You know what it is that makes us mad? its not the fact that it was just called a cartoon that makes us mad, its the ignorance that the person shows that called them cartoons is what makes us mad.

[Leader Desslock]

...I'm not against cartoons I just don't think Anime should be called Cartoons, whats wrong with that?
Ah, but did I ever say there was anything wrong with it? No. I accept your choice to refer to American animation and Japanese animation with the terms 'cartoons' and 'anime', respectively.

But this thread is about the opposite - why is it that some folks can't respect my choice to refer to both American and Japanese animation as 'cartoons'.

And as a side topic, I have been defending the integrity of American animation, which I feel is a relevant issue to the thread. I think quite a few people who don't like the 'C' word are the same people who don't themselves have a lot of respect for American animation. So I'm trying to do my bit to highlight and perhaps dispel some of that prejudice.

...its the ignorance that the person shows that called them cartoons is what makes us mad.
So if someone like me, who has demonstrated at least a moderate amount of experience and thought on the topic - if I call them cartoons, it doesn't offend you? But if some 15-year old kid says something like "You're watching cartoons? Pokemon SUKZ", then you take offense. Am I understanding you correctly?

I have yet to see bad anime. All cartoons suck increcible *ss.
So those titles you were criticizing in the Worst Anime Ever thread were really good? You didn't have kind things to say about DBZ, as I recall. You also didn't seem to like Wedding Peach or Princess Nine.

[Dorktron2000]

Cartoons make fun of everything and anime makes fun of everything in a smart way. I have yet to see a stupid anime character.

On the first point, my favorite currently airing cartoon is Justice League Unlimited which I don't think concerns itself with humour in every single episode. I think I've seen a lot of anime and I look forward to this show (and the Bruce Timm universe) more than any anime currently airing (with the possible exceptions of Honey and Clover, Yakitate!! Japan, One Piece, and the live-action H2).

One the second, if you have yet to see a stupid anime character you have not seen enough anime to notice the bland archetypes on which most anime characters can find a base (especially harem anime, bleh).

Anyway, to dispell your notion that 'anime makes fun of everything in a smart way' a few examples:

Colorful
http://animenewsnetwork.com/images/encyc/A1032-13.thumbnail.90.jpg

Green Green
http://animenewsnetwork.com/images/encyc/A2291-6.thumbnail.90.jpg

and, Puni Puni Poemy

http://animenewsnetwork.com/images/encyc/A865-17.thumbnail.90.jpg

I have yet to see bad anime. All cartoons suck increcible *ss.

A comment about as intelligent as those shows.

[Leader Desslock]

I would argue that Puni Puni Poemy is actually pretty clever satire/parody in its way, although it does lack the subtlety that most parodies have.

In it's place, I'd put Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo. The wordplay is clever, but I'm not sure that it makes fun of things in a particularly clever way. It's more a comedy of non-sequiturs.

[Alisstiss]

I have seen 3 bad anime series and every cartoon I've ever seen (with the exception of Hey Arnold, which was actually pretty realistic and smart for a kids show, nevermind a Nickleodeon show. Too bad no one likes it much anymore. :() sucked incredible *ss.

[jeanlouisjr]

i have seen too much bad anime
i know bad cartoons
not a reply to any one

[Alisstiss]

What does this have to do with anime being called cartoons? Riddle me that.

[Shakuras]

Desslock,

Now's about that time to start talking to a brick wall. :)

[Alisstiss]

Yeah. That pretty much sums up what it's like to talk to me in real life. But here, I listen. Just not to you, anymore, Desslock.

[Dorktron2000]

I would argue that Puni Puni Poemy is actually pretty clever satire/parody in its way, although it does lack the subtlety that most parodies have.

In it's place, I'd put Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo. The wordplay is clever, but I'm not sure that it makes fun of things in a particularly clever way. It's more a comedy of non-sequiturs.

I wanted to put a picture of either Guardian Hearts or the Ping Pong Club, but I couldn't easily find one so I settled for Poemy.

I have seen 3 bad anime series and every cartoon I've ever seen (with the exception of Hey Arnold, which was actually pretty realistic and smart for a kids show, nevermind a Nickleodeon show. Too bad no one likes it much anymore. :() sucked incredible *ss.

Again you need to watch more anime before you can make a broad statement like all anime is better than any cartoon; once you start viewing the scum that makes up a majority of anime you will change your mind.

On your opinions of cartoons: Don't you have any fond recollections from when you were younger? Almost everyone my age recalls fondly the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or the Super Mario Brothers Super Show, even though they may both pale in comparison today.

[Alisstiss]

I just can't believe why people call anime cartoons. Does anime look like a cartoon to you? Take a look at Spongebob and Last Exile and tell me if there's ANYTHING in common with the animation.

[Leader Desslock]

I have been for a while, it seems. I think brick wlls are more receptive to change.

What does this have to do with anime being called cartoons? Riddle me that.
Um, well, as part of the discussion, I'm trying to raise the awareness of quality American animation, hopefully to dispell some of the stigma surrounding the word 'cartoon' as it relates to anime. But if you're holding up Hey Arnold as an example of quality American animation, then I think I'm beating a dead horse here. The late 90's and beyond were not what I'd consider to be the pinnacle of American animation.

Until you get the time to actually watch and appreciate some of the classics, you might just want to assume you haven't been exposed to quality American animation yet.

Take a look at Spongebob and Last Exile and tell me if there's ANYTHING in common with the animation.
I could just as easily say take a look at Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo versus Watership Down. WD wins hands down - but that doesn't matter because we'd still be comparing apples to rutabegas. Everything's got a different style, but animation is animation.

[Alisstiss]

Bugs Bunny? Is that what you're getting at? Yes, that is! I completely forgot about Warner Brothers cartoons!

[Leader Desslock]

While some of the early-to-mid works of the Brothers Warner are indeed brilliant, no, I'm not just talking about Bugs Bunny. Use Google. Happy Hunting.

[fujyoshi]

Because, when anime is refered to as "cartoons" it makes it sound childish. Anyone who watches anime knows that anime appeals to many audiences and many age groups. Just because it is animation it shouldn't be put down like that. My brother does that and he always makes me mad.

[Dorktron2000]

I just can't believe why people call anime cartoons. Does anime look like a cartoon to you? Take a look at Spongebob and Last Exile and tell me if there's ANYTHING in common with the animation.

Why don't you compare eighties and early nineties animation where they strived for more of a realistic tone. Compare, say, Cadillacs and Dinosaurs to something produced around 1986 (like early Dragonball Z perhaps) or TNMT to maybe Patlabor.

[fujyoshi]

I just can't believe why people call anime cartoons. Does anime look like a cartoon to you? Take a look at Spongebob and Last Exile and tell me if there's ANYTHING in common with the animation.

That's my point exactly. Spongebob is a piece 'a crap but when you look at anime there is a realism to it even when it's anime for kids or "cartoons" some smart mouths try to call it.

[Dorktron2000]

Because, when anime is refered to as "cartoons" it makes it sound childish. Anyone who watches anime knows that anime appeals to many audiences and many age groups. Just because it is animation it shouldn't be put down like that. My brother does that and he always makes me mad.

A majority of anime is childish (anything from Shounen Jump - i.e. One Piece, Bleach, etc. - is coincidently aimed at shounens) and there are far fewer successes aimed at older audiences. Cartoons can appeal to many age groups too (as the success of Adult Swim has proved). Anime fans have to move past the stigma that what they are watching is inherently more mature than the average American cartoon.

[Kaiga]

I have yet to see bad anime. All cartoons suck increcible *ss.
wow, you keep stating the next obvious, you probably haven't seen much anime, just like you said you have yet to see a stupid character, yes yes yes!! there are alot of bad anime out there. some suck quite alot. I can give you a long list if you like, but I do not feel like doing that as of now, I'll give you an anime that sucks on general terms, not my opinion, because of its bad storyline, and what not, and the way it was planned out, ever see Daul!? ever see Ninja Ressurection? Ninja Ressurection was simply Pointless. it stopped at the second episode, it was mainly a bunch of sensless violence, I guess the artists and author was showing just how gory minded they could be.
Divergence Eve? Its about women's breasts and underclothed oversized breasted women, not about a group of people in space fighting an evil force, thats just what they do on the side. Ever see Robotech? Amon Saga (god, don't get me started on Amon Saga, that blew a hole in my wallet.

[Kaiga]

Desslock,

Now's about that time to start talking to a brick wall. :)
no, actually I would rather listen to Desslock becuase he is making alot of good sense, some of the stuff I would have said if I were to read this whole thread.

[Alisstiss]

What I meant was that there are more bad cartoons than bad anime.

[Kaiga]

So if someone like me, who has demonstrated at least a moderate amount of experience and thought on the topic - if I call them cartoons, it doesn't offend you? But if some 15-year old kid says something like "You're watching cartoons? Pokemon SUKZ", then you take offense. Am I understanding you correctly?

No, what I meant, is that if they say its cartoons, as in a bad way, like it were for kids, saying that anime is for the lower of society, the person that says it is showing their utter most ignorance, I just can't realy stand it, but if a 15 year old kid comes and says that to me, well, think about it, he's 15, and he obviously has no idea what anime is either, its not the fact that calling anime cartoons is bad, because the less knowingly of a person who says its a cartoon, but doesn't know it really, thats ok, because you shouldn't really expect them to know, its not that they're stupid or anything, its just that maybe they never got a chance to learn what anime is. But if someone comes along and starts to bash anime, then that is showing the lower side of ignorance. Its ok not to know what it is, but then when you go and bash it and call it the lower of society, thats what gets me mad. I'm ok with it if a random commoner says "oh you mean like cartoons?" I'll be ok with it, obviously he/she doesn't undestand, it, but its when they start hating it because they don't understand it and then taunts it, that makes me mad, for example. its not you, its me, I should have explained it more clearly in my last post.

[Shakuras]

no, actually I would rather listen to Desslock becuase he is making alot of good sense, some of the stuff I would have said if I were to read this whole thread.

I wasn't talking about him.

[Kaiga]

What I meant was that there are more bad cartoons than bad anime.
not what you said in your last post:
I have yet to see bad anime. All cartoons suck increcible *ss.
you did say you have yet to see bad anime, there is bad anime, and of course, there are alot of cartoons out there, that suck, but they suck because of your point of veiw, what you don't seem to realize is that american cartoons are aimed at the less complex minded, the younger generation, not teenagers, most American animation is like that. Cartoons like Spongebob and things that come on Nickelodeon are for younger children, not for your age group. They don't suck, you just don't like them, and becuase you don't like it, you tend to be mad at the fact you don't like it, and you say american cartoons suck. Children do not need to see the violence that teenagers see in anime, and there for a simpler more funny cartoon is created.

[Kaiga]

I wasn't talking about him.
no, I knew what you meant, the stuff Desslock was talking about wasn't "sinking in" for AlissTiss. no worries here. ;)

[Kaiga]

Yeah. That pretty much sums up what it's like to talk to me in real life. But here, I listen. Just not to you, anymore, Desslock.

Trying to be Holier than thou? awful. I have read Desslocks posts, I seem to be agreeing with everything he is saying, same with Dorktron, and don't think I am *** kissing right now, I am agreeing, not sucking up.

[Leader Desslock]

^Ha Wow. I'd missed that one. :lol:

Kaiga, Shakuras, Dorktron, many others - my thanks. It's good to know I'm actually making sense, whether anyone agrees or not.

[Alexei]

I found that certain anime fans hate it when anime is reffered to as "Cartoons" why is that?

Because cartoons and Anime are two different things.

Go swing by Wikipedia.

Links not provided because even a moron can do a search on Wikipedia.

[smrats]

What I meant was that there are more bad cartoons than bad anime.

Actually, given that there are more Japanese cartoons than American ones (at least I assume there are because Japan certainly seems to put out more) it would make sense if Japan has more bad anime than we have bad cartoons.

And by the way, compare Super Milk Chan to SpongeBob sometime - tell me how SuperMilk Chan is somehow "more intelligent" based on the fact that it is Japanese. I'd love to hear your nonsense. ;)

[Leader Desslock]

Go swing by Wikipedia.
Hey! Good idea. Direct from Wiki (boldface is mine):

Because of the stylistic similarities between comic strips and early animated movies, "cartoon" came to refer to animation, and this is the sense in which "cartoon" is most commonly used today. ... created by showing illustrated images in rapid succession to give the impression of movement ... Although the term can be applied to any animated presentation ... Japanese anime is less often called a "cartoon", but this varies.

To me, 'less often' implies 'sometimes is'. Kind of supports my point. Thanks for the tip.

[Alexei]

Hey! Good idea. Direct from Wiki (boldface is mine):

Because of the stylistic similarities between comic strips and early animated movies, "cartoon" came to refer to animation, and this is the sense in which "cartoon" is most commonly used today. ... created by showing illustrated images in rapid succession to give the impression of movement ... Although the term can be applied to any animated presentation ... Japanese anime is less often called a "cartoon", but this varies.

To me, 'less often' implies 'sometimes is'. Kind of supports my point. Thanks for the tip.

The majority wins, and since Japanese Anime is not called a cartoon 51% of the time, then they are different. <.<

[Leader Desslock]

As I've said, I'm not trying to convince anyone that calling both Japanese animation and American animation 'cartoons' is the correct way to refer to them. I'm merely defending my stance that it is a correct way to refer to them. I think that's covered by the 49% and under range.

It's also the topic of the thread. This thread isn't about "which is the right term?" It's about "why do people get so upset when you use a different (though correct) term?"

[Alexei]

As I've said, I'm not trying to convince anyone that calling both Japanese animation and American animation 'cartoons' is the correct way to refer to them. I'm merely defending my stance that it is a correct way to refer to them. I think that's covered by the 49% and under range.

It's also the topic of the thread. This thread isn't about "which is the right term?" It's about "why do people get so upset when you use a different (though correct) term?"

Correct as it may be, it's still offensive to compare great works of Anime like Akira to that Ren and Stimpy remake garbage on Spike TV.

As I have said before, I decline to comment on Super Milk-chan... >.>

Now... Exo-Squad... I wouldn't mind referring to that as Anime. It ruled as much as Captain Bucky O'Hare... but that's for another topic.

[Old Ape Face]

a cartoon in theory is realy only a picture of a hand drawn figuar that represents a real life event a stick figuar is a cartoon, anything hand drawn that serves to tell a story is a cartoon. Animation is a series of cartoons to give the optical olusion that the paper thin cartoon is actually moving. Anime is short of animation so technically all cartoons are anime.

[Old Ape Face]

however i belive Japanese anime are compused of mutilple animations and still frames in one succesion, in other words, they will add a still frame of only the figgure and have for example only the back ground moveing, but technology today has made that step obsolete

[Soran]

Wiki definition is not the absolute truth, anyone can edit it.

But even if it's formal correct to call anime "cartoons", it still sounds degrading.
Not because all anime are great or the worst anime are better than the worst cartoons,
but because the best anime have no counterparts among cartoons.

Name me even a single cartoon as cool & beautiful as X, Angel Sanctuary, Vampire Princess Miyu, Hellsing. Name me cartoons that are comparable in cureness with Pita Ten, Galaxy Angel ( without Disney syrup for kids ). Name me a heroic saga comparable with Hokuto no Ken. Name me a drama comparable with Saikano.

If I would call you "primate" it would be formal correct,
but you would not like it because everyone would think of moneys,
while you are so much more than just a primate, you are a man.

It's the same with anime -
anime are so much more than just cartoons ( and just as Soluzar mentioned before,
there is also quite a bit difference in connotation between cartoon and animation,
http://www.animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4995878&postcount=69 )

[Old Ape Face]

Wiki definition is not the absolute truth, anyone can edit it.

But even if it's formal correct to call anime "cartoons", it still sounds degrading.
Not because all anime are great or the worst anime are better than the worst cartoons,
but because the best anime have no counterparts among cartoons.

Name me even a single cartoon as cool & beautiful as X, Angel Sanctuary, Vampire Princess Miyu, Hellsing. Name me cartoons that are comparable in cureness with Pita Ten, Galaxy Angel ( without Disney syrup for kids ). Name me a heroic saga comparable with Hokuto no Ken. Name me a drama comparable with Saikano.

If I would call you "primate" it would be formal correct,
but you would not like it because everyone would think of moneys,
while you are so much more than just a primate, you are a man.

It's the same with anime -
anime are so much more than just cartoons ( and just as Soluzar mentioned before,
there is also quite a bit difference in connotation between cartoon and animation,
http://www.animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4995878&postcount=69 )

apearence has nothing to do with whether there cartoons or not, if they where created on an art bored there a cartoon. anything with flatplane images are cartoons, even video games with supreme graphics are cartoons at some stand point.\

and that brings up anthore opinion of mine Humans are animals, Anime not being cartoons is like Humans not being animals.

[Dorktron2000]

Correct as it may be, it's still offensive to compare great works of Anime like Akira to that Ren and Stimpy remake garbage on Spike TV.

As I have said before, I decline to comment on Super Milk-chan... >.>

Now... Exo-Squad... I wouldn't mind referring to that as Anime. It ruled as much as Captain Bucky O'Hare... but that's for another topic.

And comparing
http://animenewsnetwork.com/images/encyc/A2293-6.thumbnail.90.jpg
to
http://www.goldreverre.com/pictures/other/aladdin.jpg
is not as great if not worse than what you are say?

It's easy to make broad lopsided generalizations. Following this reasoning and based off my experience with Love Hina, Hanaukyo Maid Tai, Mahou Sensei Negima, Maburaho, Yumeria, Da Capo, Happy Lesson, and UFO Princess Walkure I'll never view an episode of He Is My Master.

[Soran]

apearence has nothing to do with whether there cartoons or not, if they where created on an art bored there a cartoon. anything with flatplane images are cartoons, even video games with supreme graphics are cartoons at some stand point.\You are missing the point. I didn't say that it's formally wrong to call anime "cartoons". We are talking about (negative) connotations.

and that brings up anthore opinion of mine Humans are animals, Anime not being cartoons is like Humans not being animals.I respect your opinion, but I guess that not only Wiki states that the group primates contains humans.

[Alexei]

I'll never view an episode of He Is My Master.
OK, now you've done it. Put up your dukes.

(O^^)==O(x.x)'

>.> I dun get how HIMM got into this topic, and I don't really want an elaboration on it.

But Aladdin is a very good cartoon.

[Soran]

And comparing
http://animenewsnetwork.com/images/encyc/A2293-6.thumbnail.90.jpg
to
http://www.goldreverre.com/pictures/other/aladdin.jpg
is not as great if not worse than what you are say?

It's easy to make broad lopsided generalizations. Following this reasoning and based off my experience with Love Hina, Hanaukyo Maid Tai, Mahou Sensei Negima, Maburaho, Yumeria, Da Capo, Happy Lesson, and UFO Princess Walkure I'll never view an episode of He Is My Master.Obviously you dislike fanservice. What does it prove? ^^
I for one would prefer even the silliest anime fanservice over syrupy Disney art.
But note, I didn't include fanservice and even moe in my final list,
let's concentrate on the works that will get a good "grade" from the most anime fans.
( There are many anime fans who don't consider the shows with blatant fanservice good at all )

[Dorktron2000]

Obviously you dislike fanservice. What does it prove? ^^
I for one would prefer even the silliest anime fanservice over syrupy Disney art.
But note, I didn't include fanservice and even moe in my final list,
let's concentrate on the works that will get a good "grade" from the most anime fans.
( There are many anime fans who don't consider the shows with blatant fanservice good at all )

The previous list was an example of how broad generalizations can lead to unwarranted conclusions; it was tailored specifically to the person I was responding to (since only a day before he asked me why I didn't want to watch HIMM). Second, I don't know what kind of show most anime fans would like and what kind of audience you want to tailor my response too (for example One Piece is huge in Japan while its American audience in the anime community is significantly less and a show such as Hellsing follows the reverse). I'll respond instead to your examples:


Name me even a single cartoon as cool & beautiful as X, Angel Sanctuary, Vampire Princess Miyu, Hellsing. Name me cartoons that are comparable in cureness with Pita Ten, Galaxy Angel ( without Disney syrup for kids ). Name me a heroic saga comparable with Hokuto no Ken. Name me a drama comparable with Saikano.

For the first part I have only seen Hellsing (disgusting compared to the Bram Stoker novel) in its entirety and only short segments of Vampire Princess Miyu and X; however, if you want a serious cartoon with heavy sexual themes, you only have to look to Aeon Flux. The Peter Chung designs are a turn off, but the story is interesting once they transformed it into a half-hour show.

Second, it is wierd to group both Pita Ten and Galaxy Angel together for cuteness. Pita Ten, with its elementary school protagonists was not aimed at the same audience as the Broccoli produced Galaxy Angel. Thus for the former, I find Disney acceptable, something along the lines of the Duck Tales or Chip & Dale: Rescue Rangers, shows I watched while I was still a young kid. For the second, the cuteness is not so much an innocent cuteness but a sexual one for the older Broccoli audience. (It easily satisfies the range of those with a 2-D fetish with its range of character personalities and body types. The Galaxy Angels are a harem without a leader.)

I have never watched Hokuto no Ken and probably never will (I don't have any fascination for Asian martial arts beyond a few Bruce Lee movies and Jackie Chan, who is actually a desciple of traditional Chinese opera), but if you want action why not watch the Justice League or any of the Bruce Timm universe.

For drama, can their be anything more touching than the Lion King? Who doesn't cry during this movie? And in its favor it doesn't have the predjudices that human characters carry with them. (Personally, I thought the emotional highpoint of Saikano was around episode 8 and didn't really care for the series after that.)

---

I'm not saying that any cartoon is better than any anime, but that cartoons and anime can and do exist on the same level.

[White hell]

You know why we hate it when they call Anime cartoons? Because American childrens cartoons have become one big gay parade. Anime is NOT gay whatsoever.

I can't stop laughing after reading that :lol:

[Leader Desslock]

But even if it's formal correct to call anime "cartoons", it still sounds degrading.
To you, but that's because you have a low opinion of cartoons. I have a high opinion of cartoons, so for me, it's a compliment.

Name me even a single cartoon as cool & beautiful as X, Angel Sanctuary, Vampire Princess Miyu, Hellsing.
Ha, ha. I sure wouldn't have put Hellsing in that list. But anyway, I'd say cool and beautiful are two different things. For cool, I'd put Wizards up against them, 'cause it's cool. For beautiful, pretty much any of the modern Disney full-animation features, maybe? I've only seen Hellsing, and aesthetically, I can't say I was impressed. I'd also say Spawn or Aeon Flux, but those were internationational productions (animated at Mad House) so I don't know who you're going to give credit to on that. They're not listed on ANN, so I assume they're not considered 'anime'. Neither is Heavy Metal.

Name me cartoons that are comparable in cureness with Pita Ten, Galaxy Angel ( without Disney syrup for kids ).
I should be able to do this, but I can guarantee that a) those aren't the anime titles I watch, and b) those sure as hell weren't the cartoons I watched on Saturday mornings. So I could list saccharine titles like Strawberry Shortcake, The Smurfs, and half a dozen other titles about which I know very little. Maybe they're as cute, maybe they're not; I find them all too nauseating to find out.

About the cutest anime title I've gone for is CardCaptor Sakura. If I were to find something of comparable 'cuteness' to that, I might list The Pagemaster - a good kid's adventure with clear-cut morals.

Name me a heroic saga comparable with Hokuto no Ken.
Never seen it; it looks kind of 80's action/adventure cheesy to me. I'll list Watership Down, because that's the lapine equivalent of the Book of Exodus, which I think should be epic enough for anyone.

Name me a drama comparable with Saikano.
You definitely could've chosen better there. ;) I'll compare that to the award winning "The Hole", unless you don't think a discussion of nuclear accidents, proliferation and disarmament is a serious enough subject. If you'd prefer something more traditional, how about The Old Man And The Sea?

If I would call you "primate" it would be formal correct,
but you would not like it because everyone would think of moneys,
while you are so much more than just a primate, you are a man.
Kindly don't put words in my mouth. As it happens I would not be offended, but then again, I'm a person who exclaims 'I'm a happy carnivore' at meals.

[master terrence]

so since were on the topic, whats better the romance genre or the drama genre, I bet you can't find an infallable answer to this question.. se what I'm getting at. Cartoons are not the same as anime, they are not better or worst, just because they paint a pretty picture dosen't mean they are exactly the same.. they could relate, but not at the core of their creation and the core of their history. Is Japanese the same as Egyptian Heiroglyphics??? nope. So why would anime be the same as cartoons, neither one should be put above the other.

[Dorktron2000]

so since were on the topic, whats better the romance genre or the drama genre, I bet you can't find an infallable answer to this question.. se what I'm getting at. Cartoons are not the same as anime, they are not better or worst, just because they paint a pretty picture dosen't mean they are exactly the same.. they could relate, but not at the core of their creation and the core of their history. Is Japanese the same as Egyptian Heiroglyphics??? nope. So why would anime be the same as cartoons, neither one should be put above the other.

I'm not a master of analogy, but comparing anime to cartoons is better related to comparing Japanese kanji to Chinese ideographs. One is clearly borrowing from the other, and the only difference between the two is the language they are dubbed in.

[Leader Desslock]

Since when was the topic "which is better"? I thought it was "why can't someone say
cartoon without someone else pitching a fit?" No two anime are precisely alike. No two cartoons are precisely alike. No cartoon is precisely like any anime, nor vice-versa. but they're all similar enough in some regards to say, "these things are related" and make a group of them. One name for that group is 'cartoons'; it's not the only name, but it's one of them. I have no idea where else you're going with all of this, but good luck with it.

[CBMC]

Anime is cartoons. Its that simple.

[jeanlouisjr]

^^its obvous that he means american cartoons

[Tiiba]

Well, I *dont* hate it but I do like *correct* people at times*.....*(Darn adv. english class....)

Me, too. :D

Anime may theoretically be a type of cartoon, but I'm so accustomed to saying "anime" that my brain breaks just a little bit when I hear Trigun referred to as a cartoon. I wouldn't bother fighting over it, but it's a bit unpleasant.

[Maxximo]

Correct as it may be, it's still offensive to compare great works of Anime like Akira to that Ren and Stimpy remake garbage on Spike TV.

As I have said before, I decline to comment on Super Milk-chan... >.>

Now... Exo-Squad... I wouldn't mind referring to that as Anime. It ruled as much as Captain Bucky O'Hare... but that's for another topic.
Let me jump into this for a moment, I think its offensive that everyone is thanking American Animation is just kids stuff. Most of it is as the Japanese Animation are. There are "masterpieces" on both sides but I do have to say very few since the 70's but still great works only come once in a while. Ren & Stimpy is garbage to me but I don't compare it to the rest of the American Animation "masterpiece".

[seba_boi]

Anybody else find this thread sorta hillarious?!?...

[Maxximo]

^ I do, I Do some people are really clueless....

[Maxximo]

But it got some good point to it as well. I never would know a lot of people dislike anything America just because it was made in America...

[Soluzar]

So is Ranma 1/2. One of the best ever written, in my opinion - on the level of something like Seinfeld or Newhart. But we still call it anime, don't we? So if it's the same thing as the Flintstones, then either the Flintstones is anime, or Ranma 1/2 is a cartoon. Either way, I don't see the distinction.

Show me an american cartoon that ever did real romance. Then I'll accept that anime and cartoons are the same thing. You see, it's my view that while comedy is but one string to the bow of anime, as is shounen-style action-adventure, those are the only tricks that American animators ever learned. They don't seem interested in romance, or any of the other genres that I watch from Japan.

[seba_boi]

Show me an american cartoon that ever did real romance. Then I'll accept that anime and cartoons are the same thing. You see, it's my view that while comedy is but one string to the bow of anime, as is shounen-style action-adventure, those are the only tricks that American animators ever learned. They don't seem interested in romance, or any of the other genres that I watch from Japan.
How 'bout Beauty And The Beast, The Little Mermaid, Pocahontas, The Hunchback Of Notre Dame?... Pretty much all of the Disney Renaissance films...

[Maxximo]

^ I'd never seen any American made "cartoons" which was foucos(sp) on romance. Why? I simple don't know maybe it wasn't a popular genre but I seen some American "hentai" if you want to call it that, action (anything Mavel) and I could go on and on.

[Soluzar]

How 'bout Beauty And The Beast, The Little Mermaid, Pocahontas, The Hunchback Of Notre Dame?... Pretty much all of the Disney Renaissance films...

Anything non-musical?

I mean... word cannot express how much I don't like Disney. Cartoons... with songs... why?

[seba_boi]

Anything non-musical?

I mean... word cannot express how much I don't like Disney. Cartoons... with songs... why?
I don't think a non-musical, full-on romantic, American cartoon exists... But then again, you have a bias against Disney...

[smrats]

Why does everyone hate Disney so much? It's like everyone's got a issue about being "uncool" if they admit that Disney made some awesome films. They were cartoons but they were great cartoons. And I'll give you this: I would take Bambi over Laputa any day.

[Hexon.Arq]

As it so happens, I've never referred to any of the animated Disney movies as "cartoons"; they're just movies to me. I suppose that should be another argument.

Overall, the personal stigma that LD has pointed out so eloquently with regard to the word "cartoon" seems (magic word) to only come into play when others do also. It seems that those most eager for the semantic distinction between anime and cartoons are people who actually *gasp* give a flying crap about what other people, likely completely inconsequential people, think of them and their tastes. I would be inclined to assume that they are either insecure about themselves to a point where one word with regard to a description of animation can actually weigh in on how they feel about their standing in the world, even for a moment, and/or that they have very narrow ideas about what it takes to be socially acceptable, likely developed from a state of self-imposed exclusion. (All the cool people know that every cool person has a favorite cartoon.)

Where do I stand? I don't care enough about the distinction to decide.

[seba_boi]

And I'll give you this: I would take Bambi over Laputa any day.Why pick my most favourite animation!?!?!?

Laputa is the best!!!

[smrats]

Well, I had to consider what I've seen and I didn't think it would be wise to compare Bambi to something like Spriggan (sp?) or Vampire Hunter D.
No offense intended toward Laputa.

[Leader Desslock]

Haha... Hexon.arg: well said. :)

As for a non-musical, full-on romantic cartoon, I'm drawing a blank. The only thing that's coming to mind immediately is The Dot And The Line, but that's more what I'd call a stylized version of romance. It's not one to get you all teary-eyed. I'd say Atlantis, but that's more of an adventure/romance blend, and if someone's going to knock the other Disney titles out of the running for being musical, they're just as likely to knock Atlantis out of the running for having action. Some people just can't give Disney a break, it seems. They must not be cool enough.

[seba_boi]

Well, I had to consider what I've seen and I didn't think it would be wise to compare Bambi to something like Spriggan (sp?) or Vampire Hunter D.
No offense intended toward Laputa.Nah, it's 'kay!... I'm just joshing you...

But I do love Laputa... :)

[Hexon.Arq]

I didn't really consider Dinsey's Tarzan to be a musical; it had musical sequences, but I don't remember any of the characters bursting into song (I could be wrong; I have a vague memory of momma gorilla doing something...). Phil Colins squirming into the background doesn't really fit my narrow definition of a musical.

And anyway, why hold the music against a movie? As far as a lot of the later Disney films are concerned, that's all they've really got going for them... *cough*Pocahontas*sniff* I think it's really unfortunate that the larger Disney movies seem to be drifting away from the musical formula.

BTW, did anyone ever see the American cartoon (movie?) Scruffy? :censored: Did you NOT want to totally slit your wrists after seeing that?

[Sin-Bound]

To you, but that's because you have a low opinion of cartoons. I have a high opinion of cartoons, so for me, it's a compliment.


The thing is that most times when people refer to anime as "cartoons", they have a low opinion about anime, or a narrow minded view of it. Even if they don't have a negative view on anime, they'll usually be percieving it as childish, which to me is ignorant. However, there will be those open-minded people aswell. If you do have a high opinion on cartoons, it still doesn't change the way those people will percieve anime, and you are misinterpreting them.

I feel a lil peeved when someone calls anime a "cartoon", since these people more often than not have a stereotypical view of anime as childish etc, but I get over it. This can also be said for people who think all cartoons are childish, which is wrong aswell. But I think there is more anime aimed at more "mature" audiences than there are "cartoons".

[Soran]

For the first part I have only seen Hellsing (disgusting compared to the Bram Stoker novel) in its entirety
Don't compare Anime with novels please, I asked for an example among cartoons.

however, if you want a serious cartoon with heavy sexual themes, you only have to look to Aeon Flux.
I don't ask for a "serious cartoon with heavy sexual themes" either. Please read closely what values I was listing.

Second, it is wierd to group both Pita Ten and Galaxy Angel together for cuteness. Pita Ten, with its elementary school protagonists was not aimed at the same audience as the Broccoli produced Galaxy Angel. Thus for the former, I find Disney acceptable, something along the lines of the Duck Tales or Chip & Dale: Rescue Rangers, shows I watched while I was still a young kid. For the second, the cuteness is not so much an innocent cuteness but a sexual one for the older Broccoli audience.
But that's what many people here try to say: overall there is much more stuff for mature audience in anime comared with cartoons. Also please don't use the word "fetish", it's just degrading. Are you seriously saying that Chip & Dale has a cuteness value comparable with Galaxy Angel?

but if you want action why not watch the Justice League or any of the Bruce Timm universe.Again, read what values I was asking for. Definitely not just action.

For drama, can their be anything more touching than the Lion King? Who doesn't cry during this movie? And in its favor it doesn't have the predjudices that human characters carry with them. (Personally, I thought the emotional highpoint of Saikano was around episode 8 and didn't really care for the series after that.)
http://www.kimbawlion.com/rant2.htm
http://www.stonebridge.com/DREAMLAND/dreamland.html
I couldn't cry at a syrupy remake ^^;
And if you didn' got past Ep.8 Saikano I sure will NOT encourage you to watch further,
perhaps you wouldn't like it anyway. But there are many other dramatic/tragic anime that IMHO really do not have counterparts among cartoons. And Disney cartoons even if aren't musicals, they still "taste" like musicals.

[Soran]

To you, but that's because you have a low opinion of cartoons. I have a high opinion of cartoons, so for me, it's a compliment.It's not just my option that cartoons belong to an entirelly different level of animation than anime, many others feel the same. I explained with my examples why it is so.


But anyway, I'd say cool and beautiful are two different things.It was not a coincidence that I've put these attributes together. Naming cartoons that (in your opinion) can compete with anime just in one of these categories won't help your argument.


I should be able to do this, but I can guarantee that a) those aren't the anime titles I watch, and b) those sure as hell weren't the cartoons I watched on Saturday mornings. So I could list saccharine titles like Strawberry Shortcake, The Smurfs, and half a dozen other titles about which I know very little. Maybe they're as cute, maybe they're not; I find them all too nauseating to find out.

About the cutest anime title I've gone for is CardCaptor Sakura. If I were to find something of comparable 'cuteness' to that, I might list The Pagemaster - a good kid's adventure with clear-cut morals.Do you think, these series will make into Japan's TV? I was asking for cuteness, not saccharine titles for kids.


Never seen it; it looks kind of 80's action/adventure cheesy to me. I'll list Watership Down, because that's the lapine equivalent of the Book of Exodus, which I think should be epic enough for anyone.
Obviously you haven't even done any background research on Hokuto no Ken, so you should save your degrading comments for yourself.

You definitely could've chosen better there. ;) I'll compare that to the award winning "The Hole", unless you don't think a discussion of nuclear accidents, proliferation and disarmament is a serious enough subject. If you'd prefer something more traditional, how about The Old Man And The Sea?Since I haven't seen either of them I can not answer to this line, perhaps someone else can. I guess you mean this film : http://www.dexigner.com/digital/news-g2314.html . One question : how often did you (or anyone you know) cried watching this animation?

Kindly don't put words in my mouth. As it happens I would not be offended, but then again, I'm a person who exclaims 'I'm a happy carnivore' at meals.Oh, should I really start to call you "primate" whenever I talk to you, while you call me man? Seriously, I don't think that we need this kind of play, even if you would love to be casually called "primate" instead of "man" ( I don't think you're so crazy though ), you know that the most men would not appreciate it.



Why does everyone hate Disney so much? It's like everyone's got a issue about being "uncool" if they admit that Disney made some awesome films. They were cartoons but they were great cartoons. And I'll give you this: I would take Bambi over Laputa any day.

I'm not talking about "uncool" as negative value, just as lack of positive value.

A cool character is the one you admire or/and would like to identify yourself with.
For example Alucard, Spike or D.
( or Jeanne from KKJ, Mitsuki from Full Moon wo Sagashite [that you mention in your signatur by the way tee hee] for girls )
But who in this forum would take an avatar with an image of Tarzan or Alladin?
It's not just because one would laugh about you if you do.


Amerika does have something that Japan doesn't either:
how many real sci-fi shows/moview comparable with Star Trek, Star Wars,
Dune, Alien, X Files, Millenium are there in Japan?
Obviously Japanese love drawings,
so they put their energy, talent and dreams rather in Manga & Anime,
that's why they create animation that hardly has counterparts in the rest of the world.

[Soluzar]

Why does everyone hate Disney so much? It's like everyone's got a issue about being "uncool" if they admit that Disney made some awesome films. They were cartoons but they were great cartoons. And I'll give you this: I would take Bambi over Laputa any day.

Minor correction to my earlier post. I like non-musical Disney.

[Leader Desslock]

It's not just my option that cartoons belong to an entirelly different level of animation than anime, many others feel the same. I explained with my examples why it is so.
And I explained with my examples. Which leaves us at the "you have your opinion, I have mine" stage, which is fine. Except that for some odd reason, you have some disdain for my opinion (anime is cartoons), while I have no disdain for yours. That odd asymmetry is the point of this thread, I believe.

It was not a coincidence that I've put these attributes together. Naming cartoons that (in your opinion) can compete with anime just in one of these categories won't help your argument.
So fine - take either Spawn or Aeon Flux. I did name several titles. Pick and choose as you wish. Or ignore it. I don't care, but if you're going to just disqualify any potential answer, then I'd ask why you're bothering to ask the questions in the first place.

Do you think, these series will make into Japan's TV? I was asking for cuteness, not saccharine titles for kids.
The Smurfs did make it to Japanese TV. But if you're separating 'cuteness' from 'saccharine sweetness', I really don't know what line you're drawing. I listed CCS (my best guess) and gave a reasonable equivalent. If that doesn't do it for you, fine.

Obviously you haven't even done any background research on Hokuto no Ken, so you should save your degrading comments for yourself.
Um... actually, I did. It doesn't look like much to me. Maybe if I saw it, I'd change my mind, but from the descriptions, screen caps and ratings I saw, it doesn't look like one of the more thought-provoking titles out there. Sorry.

I guess you mean this film
No, actually I didn't. That's an Iranian production. "The Hole" is an American anti-nuclear cartoon from the 60's.

One question : how often did you (or anyone you know) cried watching this animation?
Since when is crying the measure of a good drama? Not all drama are sad, for one thing. For another, I can name quite a few dramatic anime that didn't make me cry - like Haibane Renmei. It's a drama, I shed no tears. Does that mean it's not really a drama? That's ridicuous.

To answer your question directly, I did not cry at "The Hole" because it's not a sad drama. More of a philosophical piece. The Old Man And The Sea isn't really a sad drama either - even the novel.

After all this, I find myself asking, "Why are we going round and around about content?" Content is irrelevant. Both Harry Potter and The Sun Also Rises have different content, but they're still both called novels. To me, Outlaw Star and Animal Farm are both cartoons, no matter what they're about.

Oh, should I really start to call you "primate" whenever I talk to you, while you call me man?
If it floats your boat. I can only say I would not take offense. In any case, I think it'd be just odd to refer to anyone by their taxonomy, be it 'man', 'ape', 'primate', 'biped' 'vertebrate' or anything else. But it was your example, so I figured it had some meaning to you. If not, forget it, because it means nothing to me.

A cool character is the one you admire or/and would like to identify yourself with....But who in this forum would take an avatar with an image of Tarzan or Alladin?
Tarzan or Aladdin? No. I identify more strongly with Shaggy or Daffy Duck, neither of whom I'd be ashamed to have as an avatar (esp. a Duck Dodgers avatar). Other cool avatars would be Hong Kong Fooey, Rikki Tikki Tavi (the Chuck Jones version), The Grinch, or maybe Fiver.

[seba_boi]

But who in this forum would take an avatar with an image of Tarzan or Alladin?I'd be proud to sport an Aladdin avatar... But I'd rather much prefer Simba from Lion King or Phoebus from The Hunchback Of Notre Dame... I like these characters more... And ALAN MENKEN's music (my second favourite composer after YOKO KANNO!) for Disney kicks ARSE than most anime out there!!!!!

[Soran]

And I explained with my examples. Which leaves us at the "you have your opinion, I have mine" stage, which is fine. Except that for some odd reason, you have some disdain for my opinion (anime is cartoons), while I have no disdain for yours. That odd asymmetry is the point of this thread, I believe.
Wrong. I just don't like cartoons while you like anime ( otherwise would you have 1,4 k posts in a forum called animenation? ).
I just do my best to answer the thread question why I feel uncomfortable when one calls anime "cartoons".

So fine - take either Spawn or Aeon Flux. I did name several titles. Pick and choose as you wish. Or ignore it. I don't care, but if you're going to just disqualify any potential answer, then I'd ask why you're bothering to ask the questions in the first place.
I disqualified it with a reason because you separated the two categories which I have put together intently.
The problem with this discussion is that the most anime fans dislike the cartoon style, not just the content and wouldn't force themself watching it just to prove your point wrong.

Let's compare the sales & popularity between the serious anime and serious cartoons outside of Amerika, or even better the development of this statistics. There is a reason why the most people prefer anime style.

But if you're separating 'cuteness' from 'saccharine sweetness', I really don't know what line you're drawing. I listed CCS (my best guess) and gave a reasonable equivalent. If that doesn't do it for you, fine.
Exactly, just like for many other CCS, Pits Ten and Galaxy Angels fans. Again, the question of this thread is why we find it disgusting when anime are called "cartoons".


No, actually I didn't. That's an Iranian production. "The Hole" is an American anti-nuclear cartoon from the 60's.In this case a link would help since "The Hole" is a very common term.





Since when is crying the measure of a good drama? Not all drama are sad, for one thing. For another, I can name quite a few dramatic anime that didn't make me cry - like Haibane Renmei. It's a drama, I shed no tears. Does that mean it's not really a drama? That's ridicuous.

To answer your question directly, I did not cry at "The Hole" because it's not a sad drama. More of a philosophical piece. The Old Man And The Sea isn't really a sad drama either - even the novel.

After all this, I find myself asking, "Why are we going round and around about content?" Content is irrelevant. Both Harry Potter and The Sun Also Rises have different content, but they're still both called novels. To me, Outlaw Star and Animal Farm are both cartoons, no matter what they're about.Well, I'm not so much into philosophy. If a movie doesn't make me want to cry or laugh with the characters of the drama, it's a pretty worthless drama for me.


If it floats your boat. I can only say I would not take offense. In any case, I think it'd be just odd to refer to anyone by their taxonomy, be it 'man', 'ape', 'primate', 'biped' 'vertebrate' or anything else. But it was your example, so I figured it had some meaning to you. If not, forget it, because it means nothing to me.You ignored my second argument. Even if it's OK for you, many others would be offended to be called so, you sure understand it.

Tarzan or Aladdin? No. I identify more strongly with Shaggy or Daffy Duck, neither of whom I'd be ashamed to have as an avatar (esp. a Duck Dodgers avatar). Other cool avatars would be Hong Kong Fooey, Rikki Tikki Tavi (the Chuck Jones version), The Grinch, or maybe Fiver.Again, it's you. We are talking about why many anime fans would rather not take such ava. In their opinion such ava would lack cuteness / coolness / (anime-like) dramatic or whatever they watch anime for, they could neither identify themself with it, nor adore it. All I try to do is showing why is anime so different from cartoons for many, and why calling anime "cartoons" sounds degrading for them.


I'd be proud to sport an Aladdin avatar... But I'd rather much prefer Simba from Lion King or Phoebus from The Hunchback Of Notre Dame... I like these characters more... And ALAN MENKEN's music (my second favourite composer after YOKO KANNO!) for Disney kicks ARSE than most anime out there!!!!!Alright, it had to be expected that many would take cartoon avas, many do already have cartoon avas. My point is just that many others would rather take NO avatar at all before choosing from cartoon characters. Not just because cartoons aren't "cool" but because they don't appeal them and style-wise / are entirely different from what they like. I mean - is Di Gi Charat cool? Is Mao-chan cool? Is Magical Project S cool? Probably the most anime fans would have different opinion, but I love these anime and would have no problem taking an image from these shows as ava if I didn't decide to stick with Unagi's image, especially because I've different nicks in some other forums, this way one can recoginze me at ava. All I say is that it's neither a stigma nor a complex. Calling anime "cartoons" is just misleading. The image, one thinks of first ( hearing "cartoons" ), is almost the opposite of what I value in anime.

[Loopy]

Soran's last post was composed of 'ANIME ROXX, CARTONS SUCK!!!1111'.

Seriously dude, if you can't put up a semblance of a good argument then don't bother posting.

As for how your main point was that the anime style is superior to cartoon style...well uh, the anime style was inspired by Disney movies so you can't really hate one without hating the other. As for this so-called definitive superior anime style...what is it? What is this great style that everyone speaks of? I mean you look back in the 70s and 80s with Speed Racer and Gundam and they have unrealistic big eyes and cruddy animation. Sure it can be argued that there were some great stories back then but there were also an equal amount of crap stories.

So then, content aside, what is this great anime style you speak of? What makes it better than the cartoon style because you have yet to actually make that point. Hell, why do you view the cartoon style as so bad? If anything, your saying this stems from an ignorance of cartoons and if thats the case, I seriously advise you to discard this close-mindedness that you and many anime fans have and y'know, find good cartoons. Goddamn.

[japangirlcmw]

Because anime fans hear the word 'cartoons' and think of American Cartoons. Like...Rugrats and things like that. And we really dont like hearing works of art, like Hellsing and Getbackers, being paired together with crap like that.

Get it? :naughty:

[Loopy]

^Why bother trying to prove my own point when other people do it for me? Thank you ever so much :)

[Soran]

Soran's last post was composed of 'ANIME ROXX, CARTONS SUCK!!!1111'.

Seriously dude, if you can't put up a semblance of a good argument then don't bother posting.

As for how your main point was that the anime style is superior to cartoon style...well uh, the anime style was inspired by Disney movies so you can't really hate one without hating the other. As for this so-called definitive superior anime style...what is it? What is this great style that everyone speaks of? I mean you look back in the 70s and 80s with Speed Racer and Gundam and they have unrealistic big eyes and cruddy animation. Sure it can be argued that there were some great stories back then but there were also an equal amount of crap stories.

So then, content aside, what is this great anime style you speak of? What makes it better than the cartoon style because you have yet to actually make that point. Hell, why do you view the cartoon style as so bad? If anything, your saying this stems from an ignorance of cartoons and if thats the case, I seriously advise you to discard this close-mindedness that you and many anime fans have and y'know, find good cartoons. Goddamn.

I think I said often enough that it's just my point of view,
I did say that cartoons can have their own values.

All I do is simpy explaining why I dislike cartoons, why they just don't appeal me.
Does disliking of cartoon's content and style make me close minded?

As for the style difference - one has to be blind to ask this question.


Oh, and don't bother to summarizing other's posts, you aren't very good at it.
Actually you should not bother answering at all if all you can do is to insult the one you don't agree with.

[Loopy]

All I do is simpy explaining why I dislike cartoons, why they just don't appeal me.
Does disliking of cartoon's content and style make me close minded?

You haven't explained anything and seeing as how you rely on mainstream cartoons for your judgments its akin to someone relying on mainstream crap like Pokemon and the Yu-gi-oh dub for their judgments on anime. Well done.

As for the style difference - one has to be blind to ask this question.

Humor me then. Explain the style. You can go on about "Oh its common sense and obvious what the difference in style is!" all you want, but you haven't explained the differences in style at all.

Oh, and don't bother to summarizing other's posts, you aren't very good at it.

Oh believe me, I am good at it :naughty:

Actually you should not bother answering at all if all you can do is to insult the one you don't agree with.

Its not so much as insulting as it is a simple statement of fact. This little post was composed of the exact same one-sided close-minded nonsense.

[Soran]

Its not so much as insulting as it is a simple statement of fact. This little post was composed of the exact same one-sided close-minded nonsense.I should simply ignore you for you are just a troll.
You answer to japangirlcmw's post pretty much proves it.
Good luck being taken serious by others, troll, I'm done with you.

[Loopy]

I should simply ignore you for you are just a troll.
You answer to japangirlcmw's post pretty much proves it.
Good luck being taken serious by others, troll, I'm done with you.

Uh no, japangirlcmw did prove my point right there. That's not being a troll, its a simple statement of fact. That you're so dismissive of me instead of trying to rebuke my arguments pretty much also says that you don't have a counter to my argument. Furthermore getting all snippy shows that you seriously need to stop taking your hobbies as well as the internet so seriously.

[sfried]

Technically Japanese anime are cartoons. It depends on how you looks at the term "cartoon".

If you're American, you'd most likely label that as something associated with "Micky Mouse."

[Dorktron2000]

I don't ask for a "serious cartoon with heavy sexual themes" either. Please read closely what values I was listing.

The sensuality of Aeon Flux was part of the beauty of the show, it was infused in the action and dialouge and made it fun to watch. As for the 'cool' value that you want, I think Peter Chung did a pretty decent job at that too.

But that's what many people here try to say: overall there is much more stuff for mature audience in anime comared with cartoons. Also please don't use the word "fetish", it's just degrading. Are you seriously saying that Chip & Dale has a cuteness value comparable with Galaxy Angel?

First, fetish is not instantly connected to a sexual perversion; rather, it is a placeholder for any obsession. Again, I emphasize the cuteness of Galaxy Angel is not based on a lingering with innocence but a more sexual and frankly cruder cuteness. It is a Broccoli series aimed at an older audience and its characters trace the borders of the archetypes found in any harem series. I love the show and have watched fully three seasons of the show, but when I watch Galaxy Angel I can only say one character is cute - Milfeulle - and her cuteness comes from that childish innocence I mentioned before.

Again, read what values I was asking for. Definitely not just action.

I though the term 'hero' would be synonomous with the 'Justice League' one of the boldest of all DC properties.

http://www.kimbawlion.com/rant2.htm
http://www.stonebridge.com/DREAMLAND/dreamland.html
I couldn't cry at a syrupy remake ^^;


To say that Disney that the Lion King is a remake is like saying Darwin didn't propose the theory of evolution. He wasn't the first, but he's still the one we remember and few doubt that he came up with it on his own.

And if you didn' got past Ep.8 Saikano I sure will NOT encourage you to watch further,
perhaps you wouldn't like it anyway. But there are many other dramatic/tragic anime that IMHO really do not have counterparts among cartoons. And Disney cartoons even if aren't musicals, they still "taste" like musicals.

I watched all of Saikano, I just thought the apex was at episode eight.

---

Anway, why is the word cartoon instantly related to something like Spongebob? The animation on something like Samurai Jack or Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends is easily the equal of many of the closely budgeted series that make up a majority of anime. And what's the gripe with cartoons being funny, aren't a lot of anime comedies as well? It's like anime fans have a wierd conception that Japan is some enlightened place where everything is instantly more mature because they splash around some crimson ink and are willing to draw women who use their breasts.

[Soran]

The sensuality of Aeon Flux was part of the beauty of the show, it was infused in the action and dialouge and made it fun to watch. As for the 'cool' value that you want, I think Peter Chung did a pretty decent job at that
too.

Let's put it this way: cartoons don't touch my soul, just do not.
I've seen quite a few in the past, and I would not waste a part of my life on it.
May be I'll check Aeon Flux since you and Leader Desslock both mean
that it can me compared with my favorite anime.
But do you think that I could like it even though cartoon style is a big turn-off for me?

First, fetish is not instantly connected to a sexual perversion; rather, it is a placeholder for any obsession. Again, I emphasize the cuteness of Galaxy Angel is not based on a lingering with innocence but a more sexual and frankly cruder cuteness.

I know that fetish can be used to describe non-sexual stuff too,
but wouldn't you admit that "fetish" has a negative connotation if not applied to hentai genre?
Isn't fetish something (at least slightly) abnormal?
I just checked dictionary.reference , and it's exactly as I thought.

I love the show and have watched fully three seasons of the show, but when I watch Galaxy Angel I can only say one character is cute - Milfeulle - and her cuteness comes from that childish innocence I mentioned before.

Wait a minute... you don't consider Mint cute? ^^
I think Vanilla is pretty cute too.

To say that Disney that the Lion King is a remake is like saying Darwin didn't propose the theory of evolution. He wasn't the first, but he's still the one we remember and few doubt that he came up with it on his own.


Even if we assume that Disney didn't copy Kimba, are you sure that the first incarnation (an anime) wasn't better as drama? ^_~

I watched all of Saikano, I just thought the apex was at episode eight.

Obviously we have completely different perception. I guess yours is rather logical, just LD's, while mine is rather emotional. I'm not saying that one of them is superior over the other one though. Anyway I know that quite a few people consider the episode 9 the most heartbreaking. But it would be a bit offtopic to talk it here, please use color code to hide the spoiler (along with my quote) if you would like to discuss it though.

Anway, why is the word cartoon instantly related to something like Spongebob? The animation on something like Samurai Jack or Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends is easily the equal of many of the closely budgeted series that make up a majority of anime. And what's the gripe with cartoons being funny, aren't a lot of anime comedies as well? It's like anime fans have a wierd conception that Japan is some enlightened place where everything is instantly more mature because they splash around some crimson ink and are willing to draw women who use their breasts.I guess it's not about more maturity but rather more sensuality (I mean not just erotic). May be it's also the reason why more intellectual (and less sensitive ^^) people don't appreciate anime (so) much. It's not meant as insult, but if it offends you though, I can remove this line.

[sfried]

There is also so-called "mature" cartoons.

So far people have only mentioned American animation.

[Leader Desslock]

Wrong. I just don't like cartoons while you like anime ( otherwise would you have 1,4 k posts in a forum called animenation? ).
I just do my best to answer the thread question why I feel uncomfortable when one calls anime "cartoons".
No, I'm 100% right. Follow me:
- You don't like American animation, but you do like Japanee animation. You call the former 'cartoons', while calling the latter 'anime'. You are comfortable with your own nomenclature, but calling both 'cartoons' is something you find distasteful.
- I like both American and Japanese animation, and I'm comfortable calling them 'cartoons' and 'anime', respectively - I'm comfortable with your nomenclature. I'm also fine with calling both 'cartoons', which is how I mentally lump them together - so I'm fine with my own nomenclature.
- The fact that I'm fine with both nomenclatures, but you're not fine with mine is the asymmetry I'm talking about. Don't get me wrong; the issue of whether cartoons are 'better' or 'worse' is entirely irrelevant for me, as is the issue of whether they differ content-wise (since everything is different content-wise). I'm merely presenting examples of why I think cartoons are worthy of respect in order to defend the validity of my viewpoint. And my viewpoint is just as valid as yours.

The problem with this discussion is that the most anime fans dislike the cartoon style, not just the content and wouldn't force themself watching it just to prove your point wrong.
Ah, haha... So they're going back to the Alisstiss-style argument of "We haven't really seen enough cartoons to make a valid comparison, but from out one-sided experience, we perceive cartoons to be something we wouldn't like, so we're going to look down on them and disagree with anyone who tries to lump them with our Japanese animation." Yeah, being called 'wrong' by people who are frankly too ignorant (inexperienced) to tell the difference is definitely a problem in this discussion.

Let's compare the sales & popularity between the serious anime and serious cartoons outside of Amerika, or even better the development of this statistics. There is a reason why the most people prefer anime style.
Yes, let's. Let's see how many countries recognize Mickey Mouse, Fred Flintstone or Bugs Bunny. Let's see how many languages each has been transated into. By all means. You first with the statistics. I presume you'll show stats for each side, since you're the one that made the comparison. I'd be very interested to see hwich has the better brand recognition among all segments of the population, rather than just the anime fans. To cite an example from my own life, I know that everyone in my extended family (of say a dozen or more) would recognize the three characters above. I'm pretty sure that only my nephew would recognize someone like Goku. I look forward to your statistics; not just a reply, but hard data.

In this case a link would help since "The Hole" is a very common term.
I'm having difficulty finding info on it myself, since it's pretty obscure. I saw it in Chemistry in high school, which was... well over twenty years ago.

You ignored my second argument. Even if it's OK for you, many others would be offended to be called so, you sure understand it.
And if you read my posts, you know I was only referring to myself. :) I asked you not to put words in my mouth, not everyone elses'. You're the one who said I would be offended, remember?

Again, it's you. We are talking about why many anime fans would rather not take such ava.
Well, it's both of us, since 'coolness' is entirely suibjective. I think cartoons are cool, you don't. But again, I'd like to point out that I'm not the one looking down my nose at anyone for disagreeing with me on this subjective matter.

...Calling anime "cartoons" is just misleading. The image, one thinks of first ( hearing "cartoons" ), is almost the opposite of what I value in anime.
Don't use terms like 'one' when you mean 'I'. It's misleading to you and a few others (but not all), the image you think of is the opposite of what you value in anime. And for you that's right, I suppose. But it's not misleading to me, and the word 'cartoons' certainly doesn't contradict what I value in Japanese animation.

[Kaiga]

Wow Desslock, after all that I still don't think its sinking in. I will definately support this:

Yes, let's. Let's see how many countries recognize Mickey Mouse, Fred Flintstone or Bugs Bunny. Let's see how many languages each has been transated into. By all means. You first with the statistics. I presume you'll show stats for each side, since you're the one that made the comparison. I'd be very interested to see hwich has the better brand recognition among all segments of the population, rather than just the anime fans. To cite an example from my own life, I know that everyone in my extended family (of say a dozen or more) would recognize the three characters above. I'm pretty sure that only my nephew would recognize someone like Goku. I look forward to your statistics; not just a reply, but hard data.


Even people in 3rd world countries recognize these Disney Characters, and other people, go to places in Africa, I'm talking run down places, even Somalia, Algeria, ask them if they know who Mickey Mouse is, and they will probably know. Ask them if they know what a Gundam is and they think you're swearing at them.
America was the first country to ever experiment, and release animation, so of course american cartoons are going to be way more popular, but Japan has had more experience than America becuase they have made so many animated shows, but you see Japan got all of its influence for animation from America. So animation in America has been around longer, is more popular, and so that means people will know what these characters are. But if you think about it, anime is really cartoons, but, anime fans call it anime is because they are saying animation for short, but since anime doesn't seem to have the characteristics of an American cartoon, they call it anime, since America seems to have 'coined' the name cartoon.
Cartoon and Anime are both correct ways to call anime (as Desslock said earlier in this thread) because anime was first inspired by American cartoons.
Anime is cartoons, but we don't like to call it that because then it will sound like you are going to watch a daily block of the Flinstones, Ninja Scroll, Spongebob SquarePants, then Samurai Deeper Kyo, I really highly doubt that that will ever happen to have a block like that, you have two completely different stereotypes of animation in one place, you just can't call Ninja Scroll and Samurai Deeper Kyo cartoons can you? because they are of a different stereotype. We call it anime because of the way it is, also because its Foreign and because you just can't call it cartoons because of the example I said above. Another reason that people call anime Japanimation. Jap-Anime, Japanese Animation.
So, in the long run, if you think about it, anime is cartoons, but we just call it anime because of the stereotype you see. Its ok to not like it being called cartoons, I don't mind if people call it that as long as they don't start bashing it when they don't know crap about it.

[Soran]

No, I'm 100% right. Follow me:
- You don't like American animation, but you do like Japanee animation. You call the former 'cartoons', while calling the latter 'anime'. You are comfortable with your own nomenclature, but calling both 'cartoons' is something you find distasteful.
- I like both American and Japanese animation, and I'm comfortable calling them 'cartoons' and 'anime', respectively - I'm comfortable with your nomenclature. I'm also fine with calling both 'cartoons', which is how I mentally lump them together - so I'm fine with my own nomenclature.
- The fact that I'm fine with both nomenclatures, but you're not fine with mine is the asymmetry I'm talking about. Don't get me wrong; the issue of whether cartoons are 'better' or 'worse' is entirely irrelevant for me, as is the issue of whether they differ content-wise (since everything is different content-wise). I'm merely presenting examples of why I think cartoons are worthy of respect in order to defend the validity of my viewpoint. And my viewpoint is just as valid as yours.
Still wrong ^^
You could tell that you are more tolerant then me only of you strongly disliked one of both, yet would be fine with calling them the same name.
My disliking for cartoons is just my taste, not something that I should justify.
What was wrong in your statement: "you have some disdain for my opinion" <--- I do NOT.

Ah, haha... So they're going back to the Alisstiss-style argument of "We haven't really seen enough cartoons to make a valid comparison, but from out one-sided experience, we perceive cartoons to be something we wouldn't like, so we're going to look down on them and disagree with anyone who tries to lump them with our Japanese animation." Yeah, being called 'wrong' by people who are frankly too ignorant (inexperienced) to tell the difference is definitely a problem in this discussion.
OK, one point for you^^ Actually I didn't planed to use it as argument.
Though you lose this point instantly by saying "going back": back where? It's not my style to use such arguments.
Also I find your exaggeration pretty offensive: I said that I stongly dislike the style of cartoons. Is there many chances that I will like some cartoons anyway? Somehow I doubt. So I ask you and others whether there is at least the content that resembles the one I like. I did watched quite a few cartoons even though not serious ones. But I know that I don't like the style. There is more to it than just style, read my reply to Dorktron2000.


Yes, let's. Let's see how many countries recognize Mickey Mouse, Fred Flintstone or Bugs Bunny. Let's see how many languages each has been transated into. By all means. You first with the statistics. I presume you'll show stats for each side, since you're the one that made the comparison. I'd be very interested to see hwich has the better brand recognition among all segments of the population, rather than just the anime fans. To cite an example from my own life, I know that everyone in my extended family (of say a dozen or more) would recognize the three characters above. I'm pretty sure that only my nephew would recognize someone like Goku. I look forward to your statistics; not just a reply, but hard data.
You overlooked something. I've highlighted it for you now.
Let's compare the sales & popularity between the serious anime and serious cartoons outside of Amerika, or even better the development of this statistics. There is a reason why the most people prefer anime style.


I'm having difficulty finding info on it myself, since it's pretty obscure. I saw it in Chemistry in high school, which was... well over twenty years ago.

And you still want to compare it with Saikano, even though it's that obsure and forgotten? ^^;


And if you read my posts, you know I was only referring to myself. :) I asked you not to put words in my mouth, not everyone elses'. You're the one who said I would be offended, remember?

Actually I meant from the beginning not only you but everyone as well,
http://www.animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4997249&postcount=117 ,
but again, when you denied it and I asked you whether others would like to be called so,
you just ignored it, and you still ignore it.


Well, it's both of us, since 'coolness' is entirely suibjective. I think cartoons are cool, you don't. But again, I'd like to point out that I'm not the one looking down my nose at anyone for disagreeing with me on this subjective matter.
Do you imply that I look down at anyone just because he/she likes cartoons?


Don't use terms like 'one' when you mean 'I'. It's misleading to you and a few others (but not all), the image you think of is the opposite of what you value in anime. And for you that's right, I suppose. But it's not misleading to me, and the word 'cartoons' certainly doesn't contradict what I value in Japanese animation.I can use "one" of I mean many. And as you admit it's not just me, so no need to highlight "you".

[Dorktron2000]

Wait a minute... you don't consider Mint cute? ^^
I think Vanilla is pretty cute too.
Personally, I find Mint annoying and Vanilla plain, and both are prime targets for those who submerse themselves in Lolicon.

Obviously we have completely different perception. I guess yours is rather logical, just LD's, while mine is rather emotional. I'm not saying that one of them is superior over the other one though. Anyway I know that quite a few people consider the episode 9 the most heartbreaking. But it would be a bit offtopic to talk it here, please use color code to hide the spoiler (along with my quote) if you would like to discuss it though.
I actually meant the episode you list, but my memory is a bit hazy after not having viewing the series in almost three years. Also, I don't find it necessary to use spoiler tags on something so trivial. Now, for example, if I said: ninja death squads invade earth and kill all the main characters that would require a tag.

I guess it's not about more maturity but rather more sensuality (I mean not just erotic). May be it's also the reason why more intellectual (and less sensitive ^^) people don't appreciate anime (so) much. It's not meant as insult, but if it offends you though, I can remove this line.
I have trouble viewing sensuality outside either an erotic or a sexual scope, and I doubt I am the only with such issues. Anyway, I find your last line funny. Its wry for someone to claim that an anime audience is more intelligent - or at the very least more sensitive - when there are such topics as 'Best looking girls from Shoujo Anime?,' 'Anime Series That You Think Look Incredibly Stupid, But Have Yet To Watch,' and 'Characters that Aren't So Pretty...;' personally, most new anime turns me off. After watching as much anime as I have, I find the characters and stories repetitive, the fanservice a disgusting substitute to story, and the action often boring and filled with monologuing. But, hey, I'm probably just not intellectual enough to appreciate it as much as I should.

[master terrence]

If you're going to quote me, at least try to do it correctly. I said I look to both cartoons and anime for entertainment. At what point did comedy become the only type of entertainment? I didn't get that memo.

well heres your memo: anime dosen't mean animation, it means japanese animation. "Anime ( アニメ ) is Japanese animation, sometimes billed in the west under the portmanteau Japanimation. It is often characterized by stylized colorful images depicting vibrant characters in a variety of different settings and storylines, aimed at a variety of different audiences. Anime is influenced by Japanese comics referred to as manga." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime) you should also know Many non-Japanese 'cartoons' are starting to incorporate mainstream anime shortcuts and symbols as a result of the tremendous growth of the art form.

What other purpose would anime serve? Or do you think that watching Neon Genesis Evangelion should be some sort of religious experience for me. Nope. Not gonna happen. I watch it to be entertained. If I want to learn something, I'll find clearer, more informative and less weird sources, thankyouverymuch. With all respect to Mr. Oppliger, that might've been their origin, but I think the medium exceed its original 'humorous political and social commentary' when the term 'Saturday Morning Cartoons' came into vogue. I'd have trouble finding the social relevance of something like Johnny Quest, but nobody questions whether it's a cartoon or not. It's not a comedy, either. Just so you know.

I said cartoons are usually comedy, you said you watch cartoons, therefore I can conclude you watch comedy. You can't lie, you watch cartoons to laugh because (CAr)cartoons=(COm)comedy, therefore I will conclude: leaderdesslock + (CAr) = Leaderdesslock + (COm). Now some cartoons are influenced by Anime's unique aim, I acknowledge that, but that dosen't define the roots of cartoons.





AGAIN, it's not that I can't see a difference between Cowboy Bebop and Jabberjaw. But I think they're both (from dictionary.com) 'a film made by photographing a series of cartoon drawings to give the illusion of movement when projected in rapid sequence' with accompanying sound, for the purposes of entertainment viewing. The difference I see don't mean anything significant, and certainly don't justify anything like an elitist attitude coming from either side of the fence on this issue. I'm not calling you (or anyone) stupid for wanting to use the word 'anime' in whatever context you want. Why should I be called stupid for including Japanese animation when I say 'cartoons'?

:lol: don't worry anyone who calls you stupid beacause your calling Anime cartoons is probably(probably dosen't mean definately) stupid. Appearantly to you, the influence of Japanese Animation over western stlye Disney (this is how non-comedic American cartoons came about), the unique and traditional roots of Japanese animation, and the enitre genre's travel and growing interest from Japan to America, Russia, Germany, Canada,.... , still does not make it any different from an American Cartoon. I say just because both are "the creation of artificial moving images" and both have influenced each other, dosen't make them the same. If someones going to label Anime as a Cartoon, then I say they are wrong. If your going to say, Animes are just cartoons your wrong. Theres nothing wrong with either one, they just aren't the same and I'm willing to accept that.

[Soran]

Personally, I find Mint annoying and Vanilla plain, and both are prime targets for those who submerse themselves in Lolicon.
What do you think... does one really have to have liking for loli stuff to find Mint cute?
I can't figure out by myself since yes... I do like loli-like characters ^_~

I actually meant the episode you list, but my memory is a bit hazy after not having viewing the series in almost three years. Also, I don't find it necessary to use spoiler tags on something so trivial. Now, for example, if I said: ninja death squads invade earth and kill all the main characters that would require a tag.I disagree because I would not like to know that after Ep....X something even more terrible happens, especially in this anime. I'm not saying that it would be a spoiler for everyone though.

I have trouble viewing sensuality outside either an erotic or a sexual scope, and I doubt I am the only with such issues. Anyway, I find your last line funny. Its wry for someone to claim that an anime audience is more intelligent - or at the very least more sensitive - when there are such topics as 'Best looking girls from Shoujo Anime?,' 'Anime Series That You Think Look Incredibly Stupid, But Have Yet To Watch,' and 'Characters that Aren't So Pretty...;' personally, most new anime turns me off. After watching as much anime as I have, I find the characters and stories repetitive, the fanservice a disgusting substitute to story, and the action often boring and filled with monologuing. But, hey, I'm probably just not intellectual enough to appreciate it as much as I should.But I meant something different! I said: "more intellectual (and less sensitive ^^)"
There are philosophes and poets, people with rather analytical mind and with better ability to explore rational stuff and these whose mind let them better explore the universe of feelings. Logic vs. fantasy.
None of them is really superior. An old dilemma.
I'm even not saying that the one with more rational mind will get less from anime, just not the same as the one who lets him/herself to be imbibed into the ocean of feelings.

[Leader Desslock]

You could tell that you are more tolerant then me only of you strongly disliked one of both, yet would be fine with calling them the same name.
By that type of reasoning, a racist who keeps his mouth shut is more 'tolerant' than someone who just thinks everyone is equal. You find my designation for anime distasteful, while I don't find yours distasteful; I am therefore more tolerant of your opinion in the matter than you are of mine. Perhaps you're mistaking tolerance for patience or tact. Not sure.

My disliking for cartoons is just my taste, not something that I should justify.
Nor have I asked you to justify that taste at any point in this conversation. I merely ask that you respect (not agree with, merely respect) my position in the matter, namely that anime=cartoons. That's it.

What was wrong in your statement: "you have some disdain for my opinion" <--- I do NOT.
Um - have you been reading the same thread I have? Whether you explicitly state it or not, expressing distaste for another person's subjective opinion is stronger than mere disagreement.


I said that I stongly dislike the style of cartoons. Is there many chances that I will like some cartoons anyway? Somehow I doubt.
I strongly dislike the style of Reign: The Conqueror, M.D.Geist, and quite a few other series. Lots of people hate Rumiko Takahashi's character designs. Other people think the Leijiverse looks frankly silly. If all of us doubted we'd like any anime based on those experiences, a lot of us would be missing out, wouldn't we? I don't see the point in dismissing (or dissing) a genre based on limited experience. If it's not your bag, that's fine. But I really don't think several of the people in this thread (i.e.: Alisstiss, for example) have seen enough American animation to say anything particularly informed on the topic, much less criticize me (and others) for lumping cartoons and anime in one basket.

You overlooked something. I've highlighted it for you now.
I might have, but then again, I'm getting tired of using your scale to find out whether something is wanting in the balance, particularly when I've said that I don't find content to be an important distinction between American and Japanese animation for the purposes of applying the 'cartoon' label. You keep bringing it down to content, and when I list examples of quality American animation that I think are relevant, you dismiss them. I'm done playing that game, because for me, content is beside the point. Moving drawn images with an accompanying sount track is all that's required for something to qualify as a 'cartoon' (distinct from Flash animation, CGI, etc.), and that's a perfectly legitimate viewpoint.

And you still want to compare it with Saikano, even though it's that obsure and forgotten? ^^;
I don't know that it has been forgotten, but so far, the only links I can find are commercial (read: prohibited on AN). It did win the Academy Award for Best Short Subject. Not that an Academy Award is necessarily indicative of quality, but it shows that someone saw it and took it seriously.

Do you imply that I look down at anyone just because he/she likes cartoons?
No, I said you look down at people who think than anime=cartoons. See Disdain, above.

well heres your memo: anime dosen't mean animation, it means japanese animation
Well, the memo to which I was referring was that not all entertainment is comedy, but to address the Wiki reference - congratulations. And I quoted Wiki earlier, which said the opposite, that anime can refer to cartoons. Doesn't mean much either way.

I said cartoons are usually comedy, you said you watch cartoons, therefore I can conclude you watch comedy.
Among other things. I think you'd be hard pressed to classify titles like the following as 'comedy': Neon Genesis Evangelion; Space Battleship Yamato; Serial Experiments: Lain; Haibane Renmei; Now And Then, Here And There; Princess Mononoke; Big O; the last half of Trigun, etc. None of these are comedies, and yet - I was entertained by them all. I think that indicates that comedy does not equal entertainment, and that one can be equally entertained by things that are not comedy.

As far as the origins of 'cartoons' - could you stop beating that dead horse? It might be where they originated, but 'cartoons' haven't been exclusively comedy for quite some time. Johnny Quest is a Hanna-Barbera cartoon. It is not an intentional comedy. Neither was the Herculoids, G.I. Joe, or Spawn. Yet all of those are cartoons. The word 'cartoon' has evolved in American culture. Evolve with it.

[Soran]

By that type of reasoning, a racist who keeps his mouth shut is more 'tolerant' than someone who just thinks everyone is equal. You find my designation for anime distasteful, while I don't find yours distasteful; I am therefore more tolerant of your opinion in the matter than you are of mine. Perhaps you're mistaking tolerance for patience or tact. Not sure.I just say that you have no reason to find my designation of anime distasteful because you like both cartoons and anime, thus it can't be used to argue that you are tolerant. Besides - since when does one call people "intolerant" just because they consider or designate something distasteful? Now, if I would say that you have bad taste in anime - this would be offensive and intolerant. But I have any right to strongly disagree with calling anime "cartoons".

Nor have I asked you to justify that taste at any point in this conversation. I merely ask that you respect (not agree with, merely respect) my position in the matter, namely that anime=cartoons. That's it.What means respect? I'm not saying that you may not say it, but It's my right to critizice your designation if I think that they way you call anime eventually puts myself in an inconvenient position because more people would confuse anime with cartoons.

Um - have you been reading the same thread I have? Whether you explicitly state it or not, expressing distaste for another person's subjective opinion is stronger than mere disagreement.
It's up to what you call "disdain". Saying "i disrespect you position" or "i disdain your position" sounds like "I disrespect you" or "I don't care about what you say". Both connotation are not true in case of my disagreement. Sure I strongly disagree, but that's my right.

I strongly dislike the style of Reign: The Conqueror, M.D.Geist, and quite a few other series. Lots of people hate Rumiko Takahashi's character designs. Other people think the Leijiverse looks frankly silly. If all of us doubted we'd like any anime based on those experiences, a lot of us would be missing out, wouldn't we? I don't see the point in dismissing (or dissing) a genre based on limited experience. If it's not your bag, that's fine. But I really don't think several of the people in this thread (i.e.: Alisstiss, for example) have seen enough American animation to say anything particularly informed on the topic, much less criticize me (and others) for lumping cartoons and anime in one basket.

And how much do we need to crucify ourself with cartoons before we're allowed to disagree with calling anime "cartoons"? Did you forget that the main reason why we dislike anime to be lumped together with cartoons is our distaste for cartoons?

I might have, but then again, I'm getting tired of using your scale to find out whether something is wanting in the balance, particularly when I've said that I don't find content to be an important distinction between American and Japanese animation for the purposes of applying the 'cartoon' label. You keep bringing it down to content, and when I list examples of quality American animation that I think are relevant, you dismiss them. I'm done playing that game, because for me, content is beside the point. Moving drawn images with an accompanying sount track is all that's required for something to qualify as a 'cartoon' (distinct from Flash animation, CGI, etc.), and that's a perfectly legitimate viewpoint.

I take it there are barely serious cartoons outside of national/regional markets as popular as serious anime.

No, I said you look down at people who think than anime=cartoons. See Disdain, above.
Where did you get it? I just strongly disagree with this designation.

[master terrence]

Well, the memo to which I was referring was that not all entertainment is comedy, but to address the Wiki reference - congratulations. And I quoted Wiki earlier, which said the opposite, that anime can refer to cartoons. Doesn't mean much either way.


Among other things. I think you'd be hard pressed to classify titles like the following as 'comedy': Neon Genesis Evangelion; Space Battleship Yamato; Serial Experiments: Lain; Haibane Renmei; Now And Then, Here And There; Princess Mononoke; Big O; the last half of Trigun, etc. None of these are comedies, and yet - I was entertained by them all. I think that indicates that comedy does not equal entertainment, and that one can be equally entertained by things that are not comedy.

As far as the origins of 'cartoons' - could you stop beating that dead horse? It might be where they originated, but 'cartoons' haven't been exclusively comedy for quite some time. Johnny Quest is a Hanna-Barbera cartoon. It is not an intentional comedy. Neither was the Herculoids, G.I. Joe, or Spawn. Yet all of those are cartoons. The word 'cartoon' has evolved in American culture. Evolve with it.

1. I thought trigun had some funny stuff in it but besdides that your right those anime which aren't American cartoons are not comedy.
2. Johny Quest dates back to 1964, which can only justify that anime had its influences on American cartoons
3. In the earlier 1900's there was only comedy, the Japanese took the technique of the animation of artificial pictures, and they are the ones that evolved it, it is called Anime. It is Japanese. It is not American. They just happened to use the same technique to animate pictures... so just drop it. Just because you can buy pocky in America dosen't make it American now does it?

[CBMC]

I can't believe theres been this much arguing over a topic like this one. Perhaps we should form Otaku Anonymous, because some people here need to admit they have a problem.

[ShadowSonic]

There are serious American shows, it just seems most anime fans don't watch them...

[master terrence]

I can't believe theres been this much arguing over a topic like this one. Perhaps we should form Otaku Anonymous, because some people here need to admit they have a problem.


Well sorry if you can't keep up with our discussion about where Anime fits in. It shouldn't have to fit in with a term like Cartoon, I think its fine being called Anime, japanimation, or any other name that dosen't leave the genre hanging open to a generic meaning other than what it is.. Japanese Anime.


There are serious American shows, it just seems most anime fans don't watch them...

and should those shows be called Anime? I say no, I say American Cartoons have been influenced by Anime for the better.

[Hexon.Arq]

Wiki may not be the best thing to quote in a discussion. You do know that any dork can post whatever they want there, right? Remember Ritsuko's infamous "quotation"?

And anyway, this is just sad. Anime is cartoons. There's no way around that. If you waste energy trying to disprove that, you'll just look like a dork, especially if you take it to the real world. People who are cool with things as they are, or even as they might be misinterpreted, are generally people whose tastes are easier to accept but the uninitiated. I wouldn't want to watch anime if it was ruled by the defensive separatists.

It may not apply here, but I partially blame campaigns like those of Anime Network, who insist that their material "Isn't kids' stuff". For many, anime is like this magic door, where if you walk through it, you're no longer a kid. Why? Because such a door is attractive to kids who want to grow up easily. It sells. Now we have people who refuse to call an apple a fruit because they got the idea that their Thunderbird was something other than a car, just like a Pinto.

To resolve the semantic asymmetry, I suggest we simply create a term for American animation to acccurately distinguish between two subgroups of cartoon. Something really stupid like "Ameritoon" or "Freedomation".

BTW, while anime styles are typically more attractive (to me; I might say "intricate" for those to whom my tastes don't apply) than those employed in Western cartoons, I have trouble when people insist that the animation is better with the former. In a Japanese cartoon, unless you have a kick-*** fight sequence (or a needless CG sequence), 80% of the time you're looking at a still frame with a little mouth flapping open and shut. If someone gets out of a chair, you get three choppy frames of action. I have yet to understand why this constitutes "better animation". Better art, definitely, but I think there might be some confusion with regard to the two terms.

[CBMC]

Well sorry if you can't keep up with our discussion about where Anime fits in. It shouldn't have to fit in with a term like Cartoon, I think its fine being called Anime, japanimation, or any other name that dosen't leave the genre hanging open to a generic meaning other than what it is.. Japanese Anime.
Elitest nerds are the most anoying people I have met on Earth.

[Leader Desslock]

I just say that you have no reason to find my designation of anime distasteful
I'm going to make this as simple as possible, and I want you to make an effort to follow me when I say: I Don't. I am indifferent. If you want to separate cartoons and anime, feel free. I have not once in this thread tried to change your mind. I have not expressed any sort of negative reaction to your choice of animation nomenclature. Not One. Was that clear enough?

The only thing I find objectionable is that you (and others) don't seem to afford me the same courtesy. Which is odd, and thus the point of this thread, no matter how many distractions we discuss.

...since when does one call people "intolerant" just because they consider or designate something distasteful?
Saying "I don't think anime is the same thing as cartoons" is disagreement. There's no venom in it, because it's a mere discussion of definitions. Saying "I find that opinion distateful" expresses a value judgement about the opinion, and by association, about the person who vocalises it. That is intolerance. Not "lynch-mob" level intolerance, but intolerance nonetheless. In contrast, saying "I like cartoons no matter what people call them" makes no value judgement about peoples' choices in terminology, and is thus tolerant.

...And how much do we need to crucify ourself with cartoons before we're allowed to disagree with calling anime "cartoons"?
How many times do I have to watch Evangelion before I'm entitled to say, "It was an okay series; a little weird, not for everyone perhaps, but I liked it." Yet I get crucified by EVA fanboys every time I hint at that sentiment.

How much Gundam do I have to watch before I'm entitled to say, "It's good sci fi, but really not for me." And still I get hit from the Gundam crowd insisting that I just haven't seen the "right" Gundam, or even worse, that I must be lying when I say I've seen quite a bit.

How much anime must a person watch before they're entitled to say "I really could never get into anime"? What's the first thing that would happen in this forum? Everyone would jump all over them insisting that they hadn't really seen 'the right' anime yet that would hold their interest. They'd ask which anime someone had seen. If the person responded "Some DBZ and Pokemon, some series with a guy and abunch of women, and another show about something with giant robots" - you know darn well what the reaction would be. The person would get slammed from every quarter because they just didn't know JACK about anime.

So.... how much American animation must a person see before they're allowed to make an informed statement about the similarities between anime and cartoons? Well, if their opinion of cartoons is all about Spongebob and Rugrats, then I personally don't think they've seen enough cartoons to know what they're talking about. They certainly don't have the experience to criticize me for making the connection.

I take it there are barely serious cartoons outside of national/regional markets as popular as serious anime.
Ask someone in those markets or try google. I'm not the one who made the blanket statement about sales figures and brand recognizability. I just called your bluff on it.

...

master terrence - I'm not going to bother replying until you start remembering the context in which things have been said. Because I'd have to copy&paste the entire thread into each post, and it just ain't worth it.
- If you want serious cartoon examples, see my previous posts.
- If you need something to do, find references to substantiate which anime 'inspired' the creation of Jonny Quest. Unless you just 'made it up', as I suspect.
- If you want to reflect on irony, notice that you're the first to point out that animation 'evolved' in the hands of the Japanese, but the absolute last to acknowledge the fact that the word 'cartoon' evolved in American culture.

[CBMC]

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but anime owes a ton to Walt Disney and Warner Brothers. Taking a pro-anime, anti-cartoons stance is extremely hypocritical.

[Soran]

I'm going to make this as simple as possible, and I want you to make an effort to follow me when I say: I Don't. I am indifferent. If you want to separate cartoons and anime, feel free. I have not once in this thread tried to change your mind. I have not expressed any sort of negative reaction to your choice of animation nomenclature. Not One. Was that clear enough?

The only thing I find objectionable is that you (and others) don't seem to afford me the same courtesy. Which is odd, and thus the point of this thread, no matter how many distractions we discuss.

You're merely playing with words to gain an advantage in a discussion. Disagreement ---> disdain ---> disrespect? I see nothing wrong in disagreemeint with ones designations. And if you don't disagree with my designations it doesn't give you the right to ask me not to disagree with yours. Is it clear?


Saying "I don't think anime is the same thing as cartoons" is disagreement. There's no venom in it, because it's a mere discussion of definitions. Saying "I find that opinion distateful" (...)Where did I say it? You're playing with words again.

How many times do I have to watch Evangelion before I'm entitled to say, "It was an okay series; a little weird, not for everyone perhaps, but I liked it." Yet I get crucified by EVA fanboys every time I hint at that sentiment.

How much Gundam do I have to watch before I'm entitled to say, "It's good sci fi, but really not for me." And still I get hit from the Gundam crowd insisting that I just haven't seen the "right" Gundam, or even worse, that I must be lying when I say I've seen quite a bit.

How much anime must a person watch before they're entitled to say "I really could never get into anime"? What's the first thing that would happen in this forum? Everyone would jump all over them insisting that they hadn't really seen 'the right' anime yet that would hold their interest. They'd ask which anime someone had seen. If the person responded "Some DBZ and Pokemon, some series with a guy and abunch of women, and another show about something with giant robots" - you know darn well what the reaction would be. The person would get slammed from every quarter because they just didn't know JACK about anime.

So.... how much American animation must a person see before they're allowed to make an informed statement about the similarities between anime and cartoons? Well, if their opinion of cartoons is all about Spongebob and Rugrats, then I personally don't think they've seen enough cartoons to know what they're talking about. They certainly don't have the experience to criticize me for making the connection.

I'm not bashing any particular cartoon or cartoons in general unless my favorite anime are lumped together with cartoons. What is your reason to go in EVA forum and express your "it was OK series"? The same with Gundam. I think I was criticizing an anime show on its forum/thread only once, and the fans of this show didn't appreciate it, just like in your examples above. You know, I'm still not sure whether it was a good idea to post there because at the end of the day - what good have you did by saying something bad about a show in its own thread? Did you make even a single person feel good by doing so? Actually the main reason I criticized this show back then was that I kinda felt being "tricked" into watching it by the "packaging" while the content inside was something I couldn't stand at, and it was the biggest anime disappointment for me so far, just an exceptional case. So I do think that it could help someone not to fall in the same trap.

Anyway, you still didn't answer the question how many cartoons does one have to watch before he/she disagrees with lumping anime together with cartoons, you said just what is not sufficient in your opinion ( Spongebob and Rugrats ). I'm not denying connections between anime and cartoons, nor do I say that cartoons are bad. I just say that even the art alone is quite repulsive for me, thus I'm not very happy when one calls anime "cartoons" .

[Restless]

Anime fans need a reason to feel superior and elitist.

If that's so, what is the problem?

[CBMC]

Maybe because its extermely obnoxious? ^_^

[master terrence]

Wiki may not be the best thing to quote in a discussion. You do know that any dork can post whatever they want there, right? Remember Ritsuko's infamous "quotation"?




and you do know people have written books on Anime like the anime encyclopedia http://www.stonebridge.com/ANIMECYCLO/AnimeEncyc.rgb.jpg < many refrences



Maybe because its extermely obnoxious? ^_^


maybe you should stay on topic.. which is anime not the people who watch it.

[Leader Desslock]

What is your reason to go in EVA forum and express your "it was OK series"? The same with Gundam.
I didn't, or at least, I don't specifically remember doing so. I know I haven't with Evangelion, anyway. This happens about once a month in any recommendation thread in the general anime forum. I give Evangelion a tepid recommendation and BAM! I get flamed. I'm not doing it to irritate the fanboys, either. I just make an honest recommendation. With a show like Evangelion, Cowboy Bebop or Lain, that involves some caveats, because they're definitely not shows for everyone.

[Loopy]

maybe you should stay on topic.. which is anime not the people who watch it.

Seeing as how the many otaku who spaz out whenever someone lumps cartoons with anime and can't take criticism to that action as evidenced by Soran's little snip with me are what has constantly fueled this topic, I'd say the problem is more of the fans in regards to being close-minded and ignorant about cartoons and anime.

Ah well, at least this didn't turn into that Teen Titans trainwreck.

[master terrence]

... so even in the face of research which I've used to serperae the two with out dissing either genre because neither genre deserves it I'm still closed-minded and so are the anime fans who agree with me right?

[Loopy]

... so your directing critisism at Otaku who you label close-minded after reading a few posts of some people.

Yes. That otaku in general feel angered at having cartoons lumped with anime shows that their fanboyism could develop further and further.

[CBMC]

Ah well, at least this didn't turn into that Teen Titans trainwreck.
LOL, I missed that one but I can only imagine what it was like. Guess what, my avatar is from Totally Spies. Does that put me on anyone's hate list?

[master terrence]

I don't really get what your saying, I've seperated both. I like it that way. So some people feel angered, its beacause they feel attacked, or from my eyes it looks like they feal attacked atleast. Terms like close-minded.....ignorant :rolleyes:


LOL, I missed that one but I can only imagine what it was like. Guess what, my avatar is from Totally Spies. Does that put me on anyone's hate list?


I doubt it..unless you ask nicely :lol: it first aired on Foxfamily I remember wathcing it once, then cartoonnetwork started showing it..

[Loopy]

I don't really get what your saying, I've seperated both. I like it that way. So some people feel angered, its beacause they feel attacked, or from my eyes it looks like they feal attacked atleast. Terms like close-minded.....ignorant :rolleyes:

More like having their precious anime labeled or attacked by others and then getting all feisty about it, considering its only a hobby at best. I'd say ignorance is a pretty fitting label.

[master terrence]

More like having their precious anime labeled or attacked by others and then getting all feisty about it, considering its only a hobby at best. I'd say ignorance is a pretty fitting label.


Well you know what, people are like that its not just Anime. If some football player were to call me a whip I'd say talk to me when you can run down the field with out joggin you cow... and it would be funny. Some people would get into a fight over it, its not just fanbuys I've seen teachers do it to.


So.. how exactly is it ignorance.. to not like Anime being called cartoons. I'm not talking about the posts in this thread that were feisty. More like this one :

it still fits the description, just like ren and stimpy... the first animated cartoon by disney was aimed towards children, and its true stuff like family guy is aimed at the http://www.mpaa.org/tv/images/Tv14.gif kinda audience just like anime is, but I still haven't seen an american cartoon that was like "cowboy bebop" or "trigun" or "fighting spirit". American cartoons are meant for comedy, in the depression it was a way of entertainment.. in the depression do you think people wanted to see something complex and depressing.. NO! Don't get me wrong, cartoons are good and funny, but you can't evolve them into your own thing and make them out to be anime.. Anime is anime.. cartoons are cartoons, not the same no matter how you study it, they even have different backrounds.

1. I thought trigun had some funny stuff in it but besdides that your right those anime which aren't American cartoons are not comedy.
2. Johny Quest dates back to 1964, which can only justify that anime had its influences on American cartoons
3. In the earlier 1900's there was only comedy, the Japanese took the technique of the animation of artificial pictures, and they are the ones that evolved it, it is called Anime. It is Japanese. It is not American. They just happened to use the same technique to animate pictures... so just drop it. Just because you can buy pocky in America dosen't make it American now does it?

[Loopy]

Well you know what, people are like that its not just Anime. If some football player were to call me a whip I'd say talk to me when you can run down the field with out joggin you cow... and it would be funny. Some people would get into a fight over it, its not just fanbuys I've seen teachers do it to.

When people insult me in real life I either laugh at them or ignore them. Not to mention you suck at analogies :P A more proper analogy would be a football player from the opposite team saying that your team sucks and then you talk trash to him. Its the same as this thread and is just as amusing.

So.. how exactly is it ignorance.. to not like Anime being called cartoons. I'm not talking about the posts in this thread that were feisty. More like this one :

Your arguments were weak and incoherent and didn't provide a proper reason as to why you hated anime being called cartoons. Not to mention your ignorance of cartoons only further lumped you in with the Alistiss types who assume.

[master terrence]

When people insult me in real life I either laugh at them or ignore them. Not to mention you suck at analogies :P A more proper analogy would be a football player from the opposite team saying that your team sucks and then you talk trash to him. Its the same as this thread and is just as amusing.

But they both play football :blink:
I've actually had people on the football team crack comments about my cross-country team..


Your arguments were weak and incoherent and didn't provide a proper reason as to why you hated anime being called cartoons. Not to mention your ignorance of cartoons only further lumped you in with the Alistiss types who assume.



nope they aren't, your just looking for something thats not their. I never said I hate it when Cartoons and Anime are mixed. I'm saying they are different and therefore should be treated like that and I supplied a reason why.



Edit: those were only two of the posts I made in a series of replies...

[Loopy]

But they both play football :blink:
I've actually had people on the football team crack comments about my cross-country team..

Yours is directed at people, mine is directed towards an interest. That is the analogy to this thread.

nope they aren't, your just looking for something thats not their. I never said I hate it when Cartoons and Anime are mixed. I'm saying they are different and therefore should be treated like that and I supplied a reason why.

No you didn't.

LOL, I missed that one but I can only imagine what it was like.

The outcome and posts were the same as this one but without Desslock's wonderful debating skills to make everything sparkly and shiny.

[master terrence]

Yes I did !.!

so since were on the topic, whats better the romance genre or the drama genre, I bet you can't find an infallable answer to this question.. se what I'm getting at. Cartoons are not the same as anime, they are not better or worst, just because they paint a pretty picture dosen't mean they are exactly the same.. they could relate, but not at the core of their creation and the core of their history. Is Japanese the same as Egyptian Heiroglyphics??? nope. So why would anime be the same as cartoons, neither one should be put above the other.

[Boomhauer]

i dont really care. I will add one thing though...

According to [the definition given by seba_boi], cartoons are pretty much just the 2D art form and animation is those 2D forms rendered to a 3D-esque enviornment and form. also, that is not really a good definition of anime either. as discussed in the "ask john" section many times, anime is simply the word the japanese use to describe animation. other countries have adopted that foreign word to describe the unique style of Japan's animation in our own language. so in its most rudimentary form, anime/animations are cartoons [by respective dictation of a countrie's language's definition] until they are animated. also, that definition includes "animated cartoon" as an explanation, but as it is a definition, it neglects to explain that at least in the U.S., the cultural development of animation has, until recently, nearly entirely encompassed our youth and the word "cartoon" has come to most commonly denote (but is not limited to) entertainment for children on TV, etc., rather than the general populace, as it has in Japan......

basically, fans of japanese animation are offended, at least in america, because "cartoons" have culturally come to denote an animated, child's tv program, while the evolution of animation in japan has culturally come to denote something with no difference from your everyday live action sitcom or miniseries, feature film etc. why this is, im not sure. maybe since a fanciful mouse and other animals were used as the main characters in the bulk of our animations until recently, we have developed a sort of "fantasy" or "make-believe" complex. since the japanese animation fans are in a definite subculture of this mainstream way of thinking, fans naturally feel a little defensive....i dont, but that's just me ....

[Krueger]

I'm sorry to intervene.

Anime is cartoons, more specifically Japanese Cartoons. If you can't accept the godamn word, maybe you need to get a life.

[White hell]

I'm sorry to intervene.

Anime is cartoons, more specifically Japanese Cartoons. If you can't accept the godamn word, maybe you need to get a life.

He has a point.

[Boomhauer]

^true that. not only a point, that is the truth, put plain and simple.

[Hexon.Arq]

For those who don't want to read the entire thread, here's a summary:

P1: "Wahwahwahwah, wahwahWAH."

P2: "Wahwahwah. Wahwu-wawah WAH wuwawah WAH!"

P3: "Cartoons is t3h kiddie SuX0rs!!!"

All: "WAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHW WAH!"

[Leader Desslock]

As the person who probably wrote the most in this thread, I vouch for the accuracy of Hexon.Arg's summary.

[seba_boi]

For those who don't want to read the entire thread, here's a summary:

P1: "Wahwahwahwah, wahwahWAH."

P2: "Wahwahwah. Wahwu-wawah WAH wuwawah WAH!"

P3: "Cartoons is t3h kiddie SuX0rs!!!"

All: "WAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHW WAH!"
Needs more "waaahs" from what I'd read...

[Gundam Girl]

For those who don't want to read the entire thread, here's a summary:

P1: "Wahwahwahwah, wahwahWAH."

P2: "Wahwahwah. Wahwu-wawah WAH wuwawah WAH!"

P3: "Cartoons is t3h kiddie SuX0rs!!!"

All: "WAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHW WAH!"

:lol: too true, too true.

[Alisstiss]

The only good disney movie i've ever seen is Laputa. it kicked ***.
also, i showed some of my sister's friends Last Exile and told them Dio was hot. Carly goes "What's so hot about a cartoon?"

[Xider]

I have a question. Over in Japan, are our cartoons to them what their anime is to us? Do they watch American cartoons like "Man this stuff is so awesome." Just wondering?

[Leader Desslock]

^I'd say bigger. From what I saw, anime and manga are to the Japanese what TV shows and Hollywood pictures are to Americans. I saw people of all ages all over Tokyo reading manga. On the subway, on benches, etc. The number of 6-8 story anime/manga shops in Akihabara floored me. Definitely closer to the mainstream than cartoons in the US.

[Alisstiss]

That's what I was thinking...

[Xider]

Yeah. I knew they had an obsession with American stars.

But do you think they're all like, "Don't call cartoons anime, they are cartoons!" And do you think they have like Spongebob Squarepants Box Sets? :) It's kind of a joke, but kind of serious at the same time.

WHOA! EDIT! I just re-read what you said. Big misunderstanding. Grrr.

[smrats]

To the reading manga in public comment:
Probably because books with pictures (ie, comics) are considered to be something for uncultured/uneducated/illiterate people over here.
If anyone is unaware: Yes, you do look stupid reading a manga in America. It doesn't matter if it's the most thought-provoking graphic novel you can buy. You will still look like an idiot so long as you do it in America around non-comic readers.

[Leader Desslock]

^^ I didn't really see any American videos (cartoons or otherwise) when I was there, although I saw some requisite Disney/Warner Brothers characters in the animation shops. Also Betty Boop, which I found amusing. None of it came close to the amount of, say, Hello Kitty merchandise, but it was there and pretty easy to find.

As for box sets and merchandise of Japanese animation, they've got it all and a heck of a lot more than anything I've ever seen in the states. I remember being stunned by one animation shop that had an entire WALL of Gundam. As in about 20 feet long, six feet high, stacked thin on the shelf. Every series, every episode, singles, box sets and soundtracks. And that was only the video selection. Other floors were devoted to the model kits and other merchandise (a lot of cels) that didn't fit with the main display. Another floor had the manga.

[Alisstiss]

They have BOX SETS? God, my sister's gonna sh!t...

[Leader Desslock]

^ Of what, Spongebob? Of course they do. I think you can get all of Nick's stuff in DVD box sets nowadays.

EDIT: Except for Mysterious Cities of Gold, dubbed in English. Just TRY finding that. It wasn't a Nick product, but it's one of the best pieces of animation they ever showed. Next to Dangermouse.

[Xider]

I meant do you think they freak out about their friends calling OUR cartoons anime over in Japan. It was a joke reffering to the constant list of people who gripe and ***** about anime being called cartoons. Next time read.

DAMN! Sicklelee deleted his post. That was directed towards him everyone!

[sicklelee]

I meant do you think they freak out about their friends calling OUR cartoons anime over in Japan. It was a joke reffering to the constant list of people who gripe and ***** about anime being called cartoons. Next time read.

DAMN! Sicklelee deleted his post. That was directed towards him everyone!

I had just got what you said after I finished typing

[Leader Desslock]

^^ Judging by the fact that it was mixed in with all the other animation merchandise, I would guess they don't make a mental distinction between the two. I don't speak Japanese, so I can't comment on what all the merchandising propaganda said, but I know it wasn't separated into a separate section in any of the stores. My guess would be that it's just referred to as Japanese or American animation, if the need arises to differentiate between the two; otherwise it's just animation.

[Xider]

^^ Eh. Been there.

[Kakura]

Actually as 1/4th japanese, and lived there in my teenage years. Yes, you are considered a loser. If you watch non-family oriented anime, or kids anime over the age of 13. Manga is acceppted by all people in nihon.

[Alisstiss]

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[Loopy]

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

All the more reason that people shouldn't take you seriously.

[SuperKnuckles]

:shrug:

I don't really care what people call it. I still love the medium anyway.

Cartoon, Anime, whatever.

[Alisstiss]

YOU GO! God, i don't really think it matters, either.
I just wanted to piss all of you off. :P

[Soran]

The only good disney movie i've ever seen is Laputa. it kicked ***.
also, i showed some of my sister's friends Last Exile and told them Dio was hot. Carly goes "What's so hot about a cartoon?"Laputa is definitely not a Disney movie ^^
( produced by Studio Ghibli, directed by Hayao Miyazaki )

[Xider]

I was gonna say something earlier about that, but I didn't.

[Kakura]

Nihon society shuns otakus, and their attitudes. They, and the LDP have some kind of objections. Both groups are majoritly involved in pedophilia of younger woman, and collect useless objects. Anime's inspired by these artist's are accepted by all culture's of Nihon. The artist's are Takahata/Tezuka/Monkey,punch/Miyazaki/Rumiko,Takahashi/Ishinomori/Yokoyama.

Any other anime are usually shunned by Nihon's people.

[Leader Desslock]

Yay! Rumiko Takahashi rules! Woo hoo!

[crystaltouch]

But Anime is animation so are cartoons?

Yeah Anime is animation but is Japanese anmation which is different from cartoons

[Alisstiss]

And cartoons are, once again, turning into a gay parade...

[master terrence]

I say cartoons are spelled C-a-r-t-o-o-n-s

and Anime is spelled A-n-i-m-e

[Alisstiss]

Yeah, that too.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Leader Desslock]

That which we call a rose, by any other name would still be a series of drawn images, rapidly presented to give the illusion of movement, accompanied by vocal and sound tracks and a musical score, which in total provide entertainment to the viewer.

Since that's a mouthful to drop in the middle of a sentence, people use the word 'cartoon' or 'anime' to describe it. Some use both, some use either, some use them interchangeably. To me, it's all good. So long as I get to watch the ones I want, it really doesn't matter to me what they're called.

[Alisstiss]

That makes LOADS of sense.

[Leader Desslock]

^ Not a Shakespeare buff. Ah, well. Kids today... :)

[Alisstiss]

I meant that when I said it made sense. What, did you think it was sarcasm?

[Leader Desslock]

Yeah, I did. Never mind, my bad. I think if you imagine someone rolling their eyes as they stress the word 'LOADS', you'll hear the sarcasm I imagined. No big deal.

[Alisstiss]

It's all cool...

[Lionfish]

I found that certain anime fans hate it when anime is reffered to as "Cartoons" why is that?
Because many American animated shows called cartoon are plain horrible and too childish. Of course It's really nothing to be pissed about. They do have more mature cartoons just like anime does and child aimed ones.

[seba_boi]

^ Not a Shakespeare buff. Ah, well. Kids today... :)
Where was that quote from?...

I really wanna watch some Shakespeare plays... They're currently showing some here (Hamlet, Love's Labour's Lost, As You Like It) in Vancouver by the beach... But for CAN$25 admission?!... I thought they were free?!!... Like a festival of some sort!?!?...

[Alisstiss]

Dunno. But anyway, I think we should all stop being pist over it.

[Esrhan]

People arguing the age-old guestion again? When you've seen one thread with this topic, you've seen them all.

[seba_boi]

Probably because people can't help but argue over the same age-old question time and time again that this thread had gone very successful?.... Next year, I'd expect the same topic with a different title, and it will still garner lots of posts...

[Leader Desslock]

Romeo & Juliet, Act II, Scene II:

JULIET:
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,

[White hell]

honestly names aside anime and cartoons aren't really different because when you break it down there both forms of animation,anime is just japanese animation and I guess you can call cartoons american animation or whatever ,Anime was influenced as I said earlier by classic disney and warner bros. studio's,Bottom line is there both animated,Just like a car is car no matter where it's from it may difference but it's still the same thing.

[Soran]

Somehow I hoped this thread would NOT be bumped anymore. But since it got bumped... Arguing about negative and inappropriate connotation of this word, even though you clearly state that it's just inappropriate & negative connotation for you ( and everyone should be allowed to have a different feeling on what this or that term stands for according to one's life experience and personal tastes ), it seems to be pointless in animenation... unfortunately. It's just as pointless as arguing about loli art in animenfo forum. Saying that you feel bad when anime is called "cartoons" seems to be regarded as an open invitation for gangbanging and insults ( I even had to put certain user on ignore list ).

Anyway I still disagree with:honestly names aside anime and cartoons aren't really different because when you break it down there both forms of animation,anime is just japanese animation and I guess you can call cartoons american animation or whatever ,Anime was influenced as I said earlier by classic disney and warner bros. studio's,Bottom line is there both animated,Just like a car is car no matter where it's from it may difference but it's still the same thing.

Was anime influenced by american animation? May be.
Do both use the same or similar technical means? Yes.
But are they "the same thing" or "aren't really different"? Hell, No!
As I stated in one of my previous posts, the medium for me is not drawings or animated drawings, but the artistic style, something you can feel especially intensive in anime like School Rumble. Some of the ingredients like moe are simply unavailable outside of Japan.

The word cartoons has been used just for too long by too many people to describe the kind of art which I consider absolutely not appealing ( for everyone who can't read: this is not bashing of cartoons, I just say "not appealing for ME" ) that it's just logical that I don't like anime to be called so.

Imagine a situation. I talk with 2 friends. Both have never seen any anime ( or may have seen just some episodes of Yu Gi Oh or Pokemon ). I mention that I'm an avid anime fan. One of the friends asks "What's anime?" The other one answers "Uhm... that's cartoons, right?" And they both imagine a slightly spiced/modified Disney's syrup.

What matters is the common usage of the word "cartoons", that's something you can see even in dictionary.reference : 1.1 A drawing depicting a humorous situation, often accompanied by a caption.
1.2 A drawing representing current public figures or issues symbolically and often satirically: a political cartoon.
2. A preliminary sketch similar in size to the work, such as a fresco, that is to be copied from it.
3. An animated cartoon.
4. A comic strip.
5. A ridiculously oversimplified or stereotypical representation: criticized the actor's portrayal of Jefferson as a historically inaccurate cartoon.Anime is indeed a Japanese animation. Sure. But "Cartoons" does have a different connotation for many people.

Anyway I guess I'll be just just bombed into the hell with insults for this post.

Reminds me of other forum where I posted recently.
Reminds me in sense of an exactly opposite situation.
In short: knowing what a loaded with hatred the word "pedophile" is ( for record: I'm not pedophile ), I used the world girl lover ( GL ) which is basicly the same but does not sound like a medical term and does not rhyme with certain adjectives so well ( for instance "disgusting pedophile" ). I'm not going to discuss the whole pedophila issue here, but you all know how common is "pedophile" used just as other word for "child molester" ( for instance: "I'm for death sentence for pedophiles" ), thus I do think that it's absolutely legitimate to use the term GL (if you wish). I didn't make any connections with any groups which use this term or call themself so, I just wanted a fresh begin and unbiased discussion.

You know what happened? I was told not to use it by a forum member ( who happend to be a moderator by chance ). Not enough, when I refused to substituite "GL" with "pedophile" all my posts where I used this term were edited by an admin and another admin agreed with it. How would you like such treatment?

I think I did nothing wrong in both cases!
Here I don't command anyone to stop using the word "cartoons" for anime.
I just sincerely explain my feelings, and I can only say that it pains me to read/hear anime being called cartoons ( I explained why ).
And there in other forum I mentioned above I wouldn't even have a problem to substituite one word with other if people would explain their feelings instead of telling me to use ( not use ) this or that. I would do them this favor especially because they happen to be ones who are either pedophiles ( or GLs, etc. ), of people who respect or at least not bash anyone for a _mere attraction_ to young girls in RL. In both cases my only mistake was to belong to a minority ( or defend / be overly friendly to a minority ) that seems to be hated by the forum clique.


And now go on and bash me if you can't help it... *shrug*
( though as I mentioned above one user who I consider a troll is on my ignore list... permanently )

[Alisstiss]

Gooooooo Soran-sama!

[Lena]

I'm sorry to intervene.

Anime is cartoons, more specifically Japanese Cartoons. If you can't accept the godamn word, maybe you need to get a life.

Ditto. If people refer to anime as cartoons, just get over it. Gosh.

[Carmel]

So what? That's basically what the Japanese word "anime" means in Japan. Same with Manga meaning comic.
Don't you realise that in America comics and cartoons hold different connotations? <_< Can't you read what they are defined as in a dictionary?

[sikyon]

Well, I personally don't get upset over the use of the word cartoon, it's just that when they call an anime a cartoon it's almost always degatory. Since I'm usually on the other end of the conversation, and talking about anime, they are basically insulting me. It's not that I can't substitute the word "anime" with "cartoon", it's that I'm not going to stand there(and probably let them win the arguement) and get slapped in the proverbial face. Eventually people end up associating the word cartoon, when referencing anime, to be completly degatory. Sure, technically the word "cartoon" completly applies to anime, but the word "gay" means happy, as well. I havn't heard someone use the word "gay" in it's orignal sense, seriously/not pre-planned, for a LONG time.

[fujyoshi]

I say cartoons are spelled C-a-r-t-o-o-n-s

and Anime is spelled A-n-i-m-e

I say that cartoons are geared towords children more and anime can be watched by anyone. Anyone who condisends anime like that needs to be tought a lession or two. Even if it's animation still, it still deseves it's respect.

[CBMC]

Cartoons can also be watched by anyone. <_< Time to let this thread die, guys.