yaoi fangirl= anime female basher

[GoddessofHentai]

why is it that every single yaoi fangirl i've had the misfortune of interacting with has this intense hatred for everything female anime related? You know the whining fangirl that complains of the main girl or some girl being in the way (I can understand their annoyance with girls in yaoi/shounen ai stories but when it is a non-yaoi/shounen ai story that just ticks me off) .

Do fanboys have problems with anime boys/bishounen? Not really. Maybe they just less insecure than the fangirls (sigh)

[star]

Maybe it is whom you are interacting with. I, for one, do not have such a problem with above mention issues. Unless, I am the oddball, which is possible. I do hope not.

[Chikyuu Senshi]

As long as the men in the series still go at it, I have no problem with there being a female character. Well, that applies to a yaoi or shonen-ai series. If I know that a series is not supposed to be shonen-ai/yaoi, then I am not bothered by there being a main character at all.

[DazzleKitty]

I'll be honest. I have been guilty of doing this at times. One example would be Tea/Anzu from Yu Gi Oh and Ayaka from Gravitation. I find both to be annoying.

I used to be one of those fangirls who hated pretty much every female character and would be annoyed with them, but lately I've tried to stop doing that. I consider myself to be a yaoi fangirl, but there are now a lot of female characters I like (Usagi from SM,Tohru from Fruits Basket, Momoko from Wedding Peach, etc.).

I guess I can see how they would prefer the bishounen to be with another boy in the story if the creator of the story pairs him up with a girl, but I do get annoyed when they bash the female characters for that.

[Animematt55]

I think i know why these yaoi girls dont like anime females
Anime females are generally very attractive, and they are also strong in a certain way.
This makes the fangirl jealous.
I mainly hear the "she is such a ****" or something along those lines just because a character has big breasts, or is sitting in a bath tub.
What is wrong with you girls? honestly!!!

[Aelice]

I dont like a lot of anime girls that are there just to toss a female into the group. I prefer a balance of female/male characters. Just as I hate the only male in a harem anime, I hate the only girl in a bishounen anime. Gender usually doesn't bother me, unless the series works hard to point out: "OMG that's the only girl in the series and she is 100x weaker than all the guys around her!" or "OMG that's the only guy in the series and he has no balls!"

[EiriYuki's Girl]

lol you're correct I thought am the only girl that thinks that way LOL
Anime such as Sailor Moon , No chance No way I'd watch it LOL
Maybe coz I started to realize that anime with alot of boys is more funny LOL I started with DBZ / the main characters are all guys then I moved to Yu Yu Hakusho , although I watched Fushigi Yugi & Ceres before YuYu but I wasn't like this before it was ok with me that the Hero is a girl (Miyaka/Aya) but now lol If I was like this before I wouldn't have watched them LOL after Saiyuki I realized that an anime with guys as Heros is better LOL
Now if the Hero is a Girl Automaticly No , I wont watch it LOL
Side character girls are ok if they are killers / cold hearted / Evil Muahaha !!! Some of my Fav like Mai from Yu gi Oh , Carla & Ryna from Record of lodoss war / Genkai from YYH /android 18 from DBZ /Pai from Virtua fighter LOL but I HATE girls like Tea bla bla friendship LOL !!! or Keyko from YYH bla bla Yusuke !!! UHH I hate her !!! Kayko is on TOP WORST characters LOL

[Shiroxx]

You're wrong. Not all anime fangirls are like that. Just some.

And there are alot of guys that hate seeing guys in anime too y'know? Like whenever there's two guys kissing in an anime series, they would get pissed off. I think fangirls are more acceptable than fanguys.

[SuperSailorMoon]

As long as the men in the series still go at it, I have no problem with there being a female character. Well, that applies to a yaoi or shonen-ai series. If I know that a series is not supposed to be shonen-ai/yaoi, then I am not bothered by there being a main character at all.

I agge with you 100%

[Animematt55]

lol you're correct I thought am the only girl that thinks that way LOL
Anime such as Sailor Moon , No chance No way I'd watch it LOL
Maybe coz I started to realize that anime with alot of boys is more funny LOL I started with DBZ / the main characters are all guys then I moved to Yu Yu Hakusho , although I watched Fushigi Yugi & Ceres before YuYu but I wasn't like this before it was ok with me that the Hero is a girl (Miyaka/Aya) but now lol If I was like this before I wouldn't have watched them LOL after Saiyuki I realized that an anime with guys as Heros is better LOL
Now if the Hero is a Girl Automaticly No , I wont watch it LOL
Side character girls are ok if they are killers / cold hearted / Evil Muahaha !!! Some of my Fav like Mai from Yu gi Oh , Carla & Ryna from Record of lodoss war / Genkai from YYH /android 18 from DBZ /Pai from Virtua fighter LOL but I HATE girls like Tea bla bla friendship LOL !!! or Keyko from YYH bla bla Yusuke !!! UHH I hate her !!! Kayko is on TOP WORST characters LOL
You wont watch series with a main female character??? why? honestly that is one of the most ignorant things i have ever heard. What is wrong with those female characters you dont like? you never gave reasons.
You seem to not like a thing called Character Depth, or story line. All the female characters i like come from anime with very deep story lines, and have a lot of character depth.
Do these girls somehow threaten you or something? I will never understand all this fear, and hatred the female sex has against each other
It is a scientific fact that women are physically weaker than men. Mentally and emotionally though depends on how you are raised.
you really should give logical reasons...

[Aelice]

Like guys aren't fiercely competative. XD Guys show ONE sign of weakness, and their fellow sex tears them apart.

[mruufka]

i dont have it... but im not that much into anime or manga unless its a yaoi story- yes im totally perverted! ^_^

[Soaker87]

Kayko is on TOP WORST characters LOL

Keiko? Wah? Well, I'm biased in favor of her by my obsession with her seiyuu but I don't see how she gets in the way of any yaoi fantasies. She's violent toward Yusuke, but that makes her funny to me. Also, he still obviously loves her back. I like yaoi, yet I can't see Yusuke paired with anyone other then Keiko. You can hate her if you want though, Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

[Schuldich]

I've seen lots of this at anime cons, mostly because there aren't too many girls my age into anime, much less into yaoi, to actually talk with about it. What I've seen, and what you've described (and I've seen LOTS of this female character-bashing) is done by anime fans ages like 12-16. Just so you know I am not trying to insult people this age, it's just seems that people of this demographic are more easily excited and vocal about anime, and they seem to go a little overboard with their ideas...then it snowballs and catches on.

The only female character that I have actually bashed is Relena from GW, and not because she interferes in the make-believe coupling of Heero and Duo, but just because she's annoying and I don't like her character. I never understood the Kikyou bashing though...I always thought she was cool...

[CapnTylor]

lol you're correct I thought am the only girl that thinks that way LOL
Anime such as Sailor Moon , No chance No way I'd watch it LOL
Maybe coz I started to realize that anime with alot of boys is more funny LOL I started with DBZ / the main characters are all guys then I moved to Yu Yu Hakusho , although I watched Fushigi Yugi & Ceres before YuYu but I wasn't like this before it was ok with me that the Hero is a girl (Miyaka/Aya) but now lol If I was like this before I wouldn't have watched them LOL after Saiyuki I realized that an anime with guys as Heros is better LOL
Now if the Hero is a Girl Automaticly No , I wont watch it LOL
Side character girls are ok if they are killers / cold hearted / Evil Muahaha !!! Some of my Fav like Mai from Yu gi Oh , Carla & Ryna from Record of lodoss war / Genkai from YYH /android 18 from DBZ /Pai from Virtua fighter LOL but I HATE girls like Tea bla bla friendship LOL !!! or Keyko from YYH bla bla Yusuke !!! UHH I hate her !!! Kayko is on TOP WORST characters LOL

*Scowl. . .*

[Animematt55]

I've seen lots of this at anime cons, mostly because there aren't too many girls my age into anime, much less into yaoi, to actually talk with about it. What I've seen, and what you've described (and I've seen LOTS of this female character-bashing) is done by anime fans ages like 12-16. Just so you know I am not trying to insult people this age, it's just seems that people of this demographic are more easily excited and vocal about anime, and they seem to go a little overboard with their ideas...then it snowballs and catches on.

The only female character that I have actually bashed is Relena from GW, and not because she interferes in the make-believe coupling of Heero and Duo, but just because she's annoying and I don't like her character. I never understood the Kikyou bashing though...I always thought she was cool...
Yes, that seems to be about the right age. Kikyou? from inuyasha? yeah she gets bashed A LOT. I dont happen to ke her, but she is a good character and adds a lot to the story.
I think the little girls dont like her cause she is really good looking, and gets between the other girl and inuyasha.....
and ithink girls that only like Yaoi are extremely annoying, and stupid.....get a life girls

[Manafairy]

Have you ever noticed how a lot of females are portrayed in anime? I can understand why a guy wouldn't dislike a male character because they are often portrayed as strong, or admirable, or smooth and cool, or deliciously evil - why would someone dislike a character like that? Women in anime, however, are often weak, in need of protection, extremely sensitive, and love-struck - not exactly my favorite qualities in a person. I don't dislike a character because they're female or some crazy BS like "she gets in the waaay!" but because I can often relate much more so to a male character than I can many female characters.

I mean, look at a show like My-HiME. You take all of the typical male arche-types and give them to a large cast of females and you have a great cast of likable characters. Strong, admirable, fight for what they believe in while maintaining their humanity-these are women who you can admire. But then you look at a show like Sukisyo with a bunch of female arche types on a male cast, and most of the characters end up being annoying. It's not the physical character, it's the arche-type that they're given, ya know?

And that's my two cents....

[Animematt55]

^ Finally a girl with some sense....
I agree soemtimes girls are portrayed as weak, but that can be a desirable quality. Many males need someone they can protect.
I agree with My Hime, they had some pretty strong females in it. (Mai was pretty wishy washy though) But it did have yuri/Shoujo-ai capablities ^^

What about guys like...Keitaro, or the typical nerdy harem guy? I actually tend to like them cause they are more 'human'. They make mistakes, and they are also the 'nice guys'

But like i said...the girl in distress is common because guys like a girl they can protect. I know my 'ideal' girl is a really good cook, really kind, and really loves me. She is basically that arch-type.
It is rare in real life to find a female like those "cool, strong' characters, cause they are so unrealistic, and usually have very little depth. The 'weak' girls are actually stronger in my opinion. They have to deal with emotional pain, and physical pain/stress. Being strong doesnt mean acting like a *****, and faking being tough or something. Plus those 'weak' girls usually end up saving the stronger characters, or saving the world.
well i am kind of ranting here

[Bibbit]

I've wondered about this myself. I never feel a need to bash any female characters but some of them do irritate me. The female characters are often just so ditzy, weak and well, irritating. They're often there only for fanservice and lack depth and are generally uninteresting. I'm not saying this because I feel threatened or any stupid reason like that. They're cartoon characters. Who feels threatened by cartoon characters?

I like women a lot. I just really want to see women who are realistic and who I can identify with. Women who don't feel a need to flash their panties and don't have overly wiggly breasts. I'm sick and tired of anime where the woman is always weak and needs to be saved all the time.

But I honestly don't care enough to develop this mild irritation into hatred. And I certainly don't waste energy bashing them to pieces. I also don't understand why fangirls bash female characters only because they come in between some random guys in anime that isn't remotely BL. Watch it for what it is gals. No need to vent your anger on some character design made by some artist in Japan. Don't like it, don't watch it. That's what I do anyways.

That being said I always kinda liked Relena who is probably one of the most hated female characters in anime. :P

[Animematt55]

^
Ah the fan service girl.....i cna understand that. But fan service animes liek that are not ment for girls at all. They are comedies ment for guys.....why else would a girl be showing her panties?

[Neko-chan]

For me, the only time I've ever bashed (well it wasn't really bashing more like asking 'how silly can you be?') a female character is if they are really ditzy and are kind of just stuck into an anime to create some tension or some type of block between whatever type of relationship that's trying to develop. In general it's silly to be angry at an animated character but its fun to poke fun at the characters that have no clue because as the series goes along and we know that its pointless for whichever female character to trying to get in between the main characters because most of us know who's going to hook up with who depending on the series. If the female character was decently written then it's okay, it just adds to the story, but if they are portrayed as being ditzy or just vindictive then a little bashing is in order.

[DazzleKitty]

I agree with those who said they dislike how many anime females are portrayed as week or ditzy, or have no depth at all. In some instances the ditziness works out (Tohru from Fruits Basket comes to mind). When the main female character is way too sensitive, it just turns me off. But one of the most annoying things is how many anime females scream "pervert" if a guy accidently walks in on them or accidently touches them. I don't know why this ticks me off, but it does.

Another example of one I don't like would be Miki from Marmalade Boy. It seems every episode she has something new to cry about, and she is weak and seems to run away from everything. She is the definition of oversensitive. Sorry to anyone who likes her, this is just my honest opinion of her. I have only seen the first 19 episodes of the anime, so she may change. I'm not in a hurry to see the rest though.

I don't hate anime females or females in general, I just hate the way they are portrayed many times. There are a lot of shows where I really admire the lead (Sora from Kaleido Star, Momoko from Wedding Peach, Himeno from Pretear, etc). Strong anime females are awesome. It's ridiculous to hate them because they end up with a fan's favorite male character, or because they get in the way. And if you really don't want the girl with the guy, that's what fanfiction is for. :P But not watching something because it has a female lead or because she ends up with a guy, it's sort of dumb.

[Magami No ER]

I love anime female girls, all the types that're out there. Probablly my favorites are Toru(Furuba), Rei and Misato(NGE), and other asorted ones I can't remember.

[870927]

I think i know why these yaoi girls dont like anime females
Anime females are generally very attractive, and they are also strong in a certain way.
This makes the fangirl jealous.
I mainly hear the "she is such a ****" or something along those lines just because a character has big breasts, or is sitting in a bath tub.
What is wrong with you girls? honestly!!!


this man here hit the nail on the head...hes a genious

[Carmel]

I don't "hate" all anime females, that's ridiculous, I hardly ever bash any anime characters. I simply dislike most ditzy or excessively clingy characters. Sadly, most of which happen to be female.

[Vampy_Chan]

why is it that every single yaoi fangirl i've had the misfortune of interacting with has this intense hatred for everything female anime related? You know the whining fangirl that complains of the main girl or some girl being in the way (I can understand their annoyance with girls in yaoi/shounen ai stories but when it is a non-yaoi/shounen ai story that just ticks me off) .

Do fanboys have problems with anime boys/bishounen? Not really. Maybe they just less insecure than the fangirls (sigh)

Uh. I don't. I'm a yaoi fangirl, and a cannon purist. Besides, I like girls anyway.

[smrats]

Like many of those above have stated, I too dislike the ditsy, stupid, and weak female characters.
But it has nothing to do with gender. After all, I despised Shuichi (Gravi) for being like that as well. Sure, he gets better as the series progresses but at the beginning he is annoying as hell (at least to me, he was).

[Aelice]

Like many of those above have stated, I too dislike the ditsy, stupid, and weak female characters.
But it has nothing to do with gender. After all, I despised Shuichi (Gravi) for being like that as well. Sure, he gets better as the series progresses but at the beginning he is annoying as hell (at least to me, he was).

I second that! ^^;; I'm not really fond of the really bouncy, childish characters in general. I loved Yuki, but I couldn't stand Shuichi or Ryuichi. O_o

[Ariel Tsuki]

I have to agree, I do too hate the damsel in distress heroine, especially the ones who once could hold their own. Like Kaoru from Rurouni Kenshin, I loved her in the early episodes of Rurouni Kenshin until she became this whiny damsel in distress who'll fall apart at any notion of Kenshin leaving her (and the OAV, made me hate her more. Who in the right mind would contract a terminal disease [at that time] so they can commiserate with you? Without thinking about your kid nonetheless). She used to be such a cool, strong character...

If I like a certain pair of boys together, I'll pair them in my mind even if they have girlfriends (ex. I'm a big AsuKira [Athrun x Kira] from Gundam Seed but I love Lacus [one of my favorite female characters] and Cagilli [who I use to a lot like until she got all sensitive and emotional in a bad, bad way on me towards the end of SEED and SEED Destiny]). But I never hate a girl because she was with a boy, but I would hate her for a personality and the high damsel-in-distress factor.

Plus, I never got the hatred for Relena Peacecraft. I always liked her and still do, although those stalkish tendencies she had were creepy, but I like her overall.

Relena RABU!

[miko hanyou]

For me,I think the reason why yaoi fangirl doesn't like anime girls because they interfer the guy's love life when they,yaoi fangirls,likes him to be with the other guy that they think he'll be better off with.My theory.

[EiriYuki's Girl]

lol I was totally attacked lol Poor me help me LOL
This has Nothing to do with Yaoi , I 've Only watched Gravi and that was on Januray LOL
I didn't say I dont like female characters I just mentioned some of my Fav !!! I only said that I like it for the ((guys )) to be the Heros

AnimeMatt55
my reasons ummm lets see they guys fight better , they make me laugh more , they make me cry more , its always cool to have 4 guys teezing each other but still they are the bestest friends (( Saiyuki )) lol

Soaker87
lol coz I love Yusuke , its normal for me to hate the girl that he likes LOL
No 2 she's so annoying and when Yususke told her he's going to Demon world, you know what she said ??
((thats nice Yusuke remind me to interduce you to my new boy friend when you come back ))
I hated her so much , that was totally mean & rude !!! is this what you suppose to say for some one you might never see again ?
Yusuke deservs a better girl lol I like Genkai & Shizoro they are cool LOL

Schuldich
I hate Relena too coz she's so dumb lol I mean how can you defend Sanc city from attacks WITHOUT wepons LOL
I like Dorthy , Dorthy is my Fav she's so crazy and everything she says is cool LOL episode 48 was my fav coz of Dorthy and Terize !!!!

Bibiit
How dare you LOL
If anime is only a cartoon and designs to you !!!
for me its real !! Eiri is real !! I talk to him everyday LOL

and I too hate all the weak and (( always crying )) type anime girls LOL like I said I only like Evil / crazy thoughts / criminals / strong girls !!
SO Kayko defenatly NO 1 most hated character for me
I forgot Neese from Record of Lodoss war I hate her SO MUCH !!!Bla Bla(( I wana fight too )) uhhh your too weak why do you wana fight!! (( It is the will of the Gods )) Bla Bla lol stupid stupid stupid LOL

[Animematt55]

^ Of course guys will fight better......it is biological males are stronger in that type of way. And guys always fight with eachother, especially best friends.
We are not liek girls who constantly stab their friends in the back.

I still say just cause a girl is 'weak' is no reason to hate her. They are usually the best characters anyways. Plus if you actually understand them, they are the strongest....

It is sad to see a little girl so full of hate

[Aelice]

Yeah, but it doesn't mean that women cant train to overcome their weaknesses. Dont fall on 'it's biological'. If you're lazy and dont train to fight, you'll suck, whether or not you're a man or woman. If you work hard, you'll get strong.

Look at female body builders. O_o And wrestlers.

Again, you are stereotyping. I know guys who cheat their guy friends out of money, ladies, etc. BOTH sexes have their highs and lows, NOT because they're male or female, but because they're HUMAN.

God, seeing you type this makes my brain hurt with all the ridiculous generalizations.

We are not liek girls who constantly stab their friends in the back.

Like, what the heck is this? All the priveleges women have to today was because they banded together in the past for equal rights with men.

EiriYuki's Girl is young, and her tastes and personal generalizations will probably mature just as mine have since when I was a 14 year old fangirl :P.

[thelostyears]

Nope. Not all fangirls bash anime girls !!! LOL. I for one, love anime girls, especially the cute ones, like NARU from LOVE HINA.

[MagicianCamille]

Anime females? Lame.

[isshinu]

I would have to say that not ALL yaoi fangirls are like that, and we DON'T get jealous of those girls. >< Sorry to be a bother, but I need ot explain myself. I have to admit that being angry at those girls is really mean, but I am a true blue yaoi fangirl, and I just get carried away by my imagination so I end up imagining things with those girls who keep appearing.

Well, to me, it's not only to girls. Even guys. Which is odd because it's yaoi. O.o Anyway, maybe it's just some of us who don't get it. I don't know what I'm saying, it's hard to explain. But I will just say I am not jealous, and I am not merciful with those "fangirls". =_=;;

[ZoharContact]

I don't really see the trend in American fanboys too much (it could stem from a general lack of competitive male characters in yuri anime, excluding Souma from KnM, of course), but Japanese yuri fanboys have been known to express their hatred of anime that has any male character in it. It's all rather comical.

I prefer realism in gender representation, personally. There tends to be a measure of heterosexual competition in real life. I think yuri/yaoi can benefit from it as well. Granted, that depends upon how well it's done.
Yeah, but it doesn't mean that women cant train to overcome their weaknesses. Dont fall on 'it's biological'. If you're lazy and dont train to fight, you'll suck, whether or not you're a man or woman. If you work hard, you'll get strong.

Again, you are stereotyping. I know guys who cheat their guy friends out of money, ladies, etc. BOTH sexes have their highs and lows, NOT because they're male or female, but because they're HUMAN.

God, seeing you type this makes my brain hurt with all the ridiculous generalizations.Thank you, truly, thank you. Geez... Women can fend for themselves just fine, if they put the effort into it. In fact, the difference in brute strength (if such an insurmountable gap truly exists) is negligible anyway. The difference is that, in our society, the guys want it more, while the girls are afraid they'll bulk up and look like some kind of he-woman. It's ridiculous.

The prevalence of competent women who can protect themselves, while remaining feminine, is one of the major traits that makes anime unique to me. Further, even a space cadet can put up a respectable resistence, if the production crew is willing to put forth the effort of depicting it.

[typhonblue]

Wow Animematt. For someone who's so obsessed with women you are creepily misogynist. The fact that men are more honest with their feelings and less prone to betraying their friends isn't a reason to like *men* better?

I don't hate women, I just like guys more.

[Animematt55]

Holy Thread ressurection Batman!!
I still say Yaoi fangirls hate aniem females for no good reason. I really don't understand it at all so I can't really explain it......
So a girl likes a guy? Big deal.... So she can't defeat a skilled opponent....that doesn't make her weak....SO she like sto cook, clean etc...basically a wife...big deal....
News Flash girls....not every guy that talks to another guy are gay for each other.

Seriously, i have heard girls go crazy (high pitched squealing and everything) over a Main male character jsut talking to a minor male character. Man I feel sorry for Sasuke.

[typhonblue]

News Flash girls....not every guy that talks to another guy are gay for each other.

Yeah... and not every hot woman is hot for all the guys who fantasize about her.

That doesn't stop men from fantasizing about women that aren't interested in preforming a sexual act with them. Or writing those fantasies. Or trying to create porn where horrendously ugly men have sex with hot women.

[DazzleKitty]

I still say Yaoi fangirls hate aniem females for no good reason. I really don't understand it at all so I can't really explain it......

I've said this a million times and I will say it again - not all fangirls are like that. I mean, why must you repeat it? I've only seen like, one or two yaoi fans on this forum say they dislike female anime characters, and one doens't even post here anymore.
Maybe you're right. You really don't understand it. Anime loaded with female characters are abundant. Anime with lots of good-looking guys are harder to find. Like, everytime a bunch of new anime shows begin to air, about twenty of them are have a mostly female cast, and only one or two have a lot of males. I can see why some fangirls may be irritated at this (I know I am).




News Flash girls....not every guy that talks to another guy are gay for each other.
I think they all know that. And, that's why they write fanfiction. I mean, it's okay to fantasize, isn't it? I've seen tons of people slashing different Sailor Senshi. They are no more lesbian than than Sasuke from Naruto is gay.



Seriously, i have heard girls go crazy (high pitched squealing and everything) over a Main male character jsut talking to a minor male character. Man I feel sorry for Sasuke.
I think girls are more vocal about certain things like that (then again, I have seen guys hoot over hot women). I remember you saying that Kio from Loveless should have been a girl because of his whiney, bubbley personality. If girls are supposed to be like that in anime, I guess real life is okay.
You make it sound like girls appreciating hot guys is bad. Each girl has her own way of doing it. I just don't see why you would get annoyed over that.

I highly agree with typhonblue about you being a misogynist. You make all these sexist generalizations about women. You hardly ever say anything positive about fangirls or women in general.

[Lockheart]

Coincidentally, I've gotten into quite an argument with anti-BL/yaoi people who proceed to attack me with many amusing stereotypes. :naughty: Apparently, because I'm all for the rabu-rabu between boys, my everlasting love for the Youkos from Junni Kokki and Parfait Tic (omg, look, it's shoujo!) is imaginary. The fact that I adore Shuurei from Saiunkoku Monogatari and Integra from Hellsing is a side effect from being hung upside down on the tree when I was four. That Morita x Hagu from Hachikuro doesn't explain it, and my hardcore shipper status as both a KiraxLacus and AthrunxCagalli fan is nullified by the one single assumption that I'm expected to go gaga over Athrun x Kira. :rolleyes:

Whatever. </rant>

[Dinco]

I wish people would just let eachother like what they like. Certain people are expending too much engergy arguing about other people's preferences.

[Animematt55]

I think they all know that. And, that's why they write fanfiction. I mean, it's okay to fantasize, isn't it? I've seen tons of people slashing different Sailor Senshi. They are no more lesbian than than Sasuke from Naruto is gay.


I only do HarukaXMichiru stuff with Sailor Moon....so it is canon....so your arguement is null and void.

and what the heck is a shipper? Did I miss a new yaoi term?

[typhonblue]

I only do HarukaXMichiru stuff with Sailor Moon....so it is canon....so your arguement is null and void.

and what the heck is a shipper? Did I miss a new yaoi term?

I think I see the root of the problem.

Apparently Matt thinks that the entire Yaoi fandom is comprised of one irritating girl(who gets around a lot) and that the Yuri fandom is comprised entirely of him.

Shipper is a slash term. It means someone who's interested in a relationSHIP between characters in a series.

[Animematt55]

I still don't understand the shipper thing.....you crazy girls and your silly terms and slang. :P
And Dazzle...of course all the Senshi are actually gay! :rolleyes: i misread your post at first....thought you were only refering to me. Also, slashing someone that is slashable (like Hotaru and ChibiUsa for example) is different than say...Sasuke and Naruto. With my example, you actually get small hints at some kind of relationship. So i guess you can 'ship' them....or what ever you call it these days....

Also, all Naruto pairisn without Rock Lee fail immediately... :P

[GokuMew2]

There are some female characters that I just can't stand, but there are also many that I like. I like characters who aren't overly weak and have a brain of their own.

Take the NANA series for example. Oosaki Nana is AWESOME! She's very strong and can make decisions based on her own judgement. I like that. Then there's Komatsu Nana (Hachi). While I don't hate Hachi, sometimes she whines too much and is too dependent on others.

Another great character is Fujioka Haruhi from Ouran Koukou Host Club. Haruhi is really down-to-earth. I think her straightforward-ness makes her likeable. She's also very independent, but still has her weaknesses.

In Azumanga Daiou, I find Tomo a bit annoying at times. I mean, she's funny and obnoxious, but sometimes she can just be a little too loud. Chiyo chan and Osaka are luv. (Do I really need to explain why? :P)

Characters I actually hate include Relena from Gundam W and possibly Ayaka from Gravitation. Relena just yells Heero's name out all day, and Ayaka is just one huge obstacle that I would like removed. There's more to why I don't like them, but those are the general reasons.

[Dinco]

Shipper is a nerd fandom slang term like mary sue and canon. It actually originated with Mulder/Scully fans, not yaoi. Its something you should learn when you're a n00b.

[DazzleKitty]

And Dazzle...of course all the Senshi are actually gay! :rolleyes:


I assume you are joking, because that is the excuse you will give me if I actually make a comment about this statement. :P


i misread your post at first....thought you were only refering to me. Also, slashing someone that is slashable (like Hotaru and ChibiUsa for example) is different than say...Sasuke and Naruto. With my example, you actually get small hints at some kind of relationship. So i guess you can 'ship' them....or what ever you call it these days....
Okay, Hotaru and ChibiUsa are friends. Some people complain when yaoi fangirls pair up guys who are only friends....so doesn't that void that arguement? But, I can see why people would like ChibiUsa and Hotaru together.
Many people think Naruto hates Sasuke and give that excuse, but I don't think that's totally the case. In one of the earlier episodes (somewhere between 11-14), Naruto gets VERY upset when he thinks that Sasuke dies. If he hated him, he would have been happy about that.
And I remember once you said Sasuke was too young to get it up....I think the same goes for ChibiUsa, but that's a whole other arguement...


Also, all Naruto pairisn without Rock Lee fail immediately... :P

Oh, I've seen some people pair Lee with Gaara. I guess that would suit you? :P

[Soaker87]

I still don't understand the shipper thing.....you crazy girls and your silly terms and slang. :P
And Dazzle...of course all the Senshi are actually gay! :rolleyes: i misread your post at first....thought you were only refering to me. Also, slashing someone that is slashable (like Hotaru and ChibiUsa for example) is different than say...Sasuke and Naruto. With my example, you actually get small hints at some kind of relationship. So i guess you can 'ship' them....or what ever you call it these days....

Also, all Naruto pairisn without Rock Lee fail immediately... :P

Since nobody's really given a clear explanation, a shipper is one who ships(supports) a pairing. Often this means that they create fanfiction/fanart about their pairing. For instance, if you like the idea of slashing Hotaru/ChibiUsa, than you're a shipper of that pairing. The term dosn't have to apply to yaoi/yuri either.


Characters I actually hate include Relena from Gundam W and possibly Ayaka from Gravitation. Relena just yells Heero's name out all day, and Ayaka is just one huge obstacle that I would like removed. There's more to why I don't like them, but those are the general reasons.

*sigh* Is there anyone other than me on this forum who likes Relena. I thought she was interesting. :'(

[Lockheart]

With my example, you actually get small hints at some kind of relationship.

What Helios and Chibiusa have? Now those are hints. ;)

Naruto gets VERY upset when he thinks that Sasuke dies. If he hated him, he would have been happy about that.

I found a link to a very detailed and interesting explanation on her take on the Sasuke/Naruto relationship. Not that it's proclaimed to be canon, but I thought it might boost the name of SasuNaru fans that are somehow always deemed as nonsensical. ^_^

http://community.livejournal.com/ship_manifesto/127713.html#cutid1

Carry on...

[Animematt55]

What Helios and Chibiusa have? Now those are hints. ;)


wouldn't that be like....Bestiality? hehe. But you see...they didn't have the outer senshi around in SuperS like they should have. I still say Hotaru and Chibiusa aren't considered slash.

[ZoharContact]

*sigh* Is there anyone other than me on this forum who likes Relena. I thought she was interesting. :'(I liked Relena, but I'm mainly a yuri fan.

...

And no. I didn't dream of any couplings between her and Dorothy (or whoever it was that had the y-shaped eyebrows).

[same_animefan]

I still don't understand the shipper thing.....you crazy girls and your silly terms and slang. :P
And Dazzle...of course all the Senshi are actually gay! :rolleyes: i misread your post at first....thought you were only refering to me. Also, slashing someone that is slashable (like Hotaru and ChibiUsa for example) is different than say...Sasuke and Naruto. With my example, you actually get small hints at some kind of relationship. So i guess you can 'ship' them....or what ever you call it these days....


*re-reads the Hotaru/ChibiUsa comment again**does it again* Ok. You do realize that you are doing the exact same thing that you yell at us "Yaoi-fangirls" for? Slashing a pairing! *gasps* OMG! CALL THE PRESS!!! (ee, sarcasm always comes out crappy online >_>;; )

Yes, Hotaru/ChibiUsa have hints, so do Sasuke/Naruto. (just continuing with the example). Chibi/Hota care for each other as do Sasu/Naru. The guys are just more bullheaded about it xD. Even if you don't like slashing them, you can't deny the fact that they DO consider themselves to be friends, though they'd never voice it for their lives. They'd -in both pairings-give their lives for the others without question. That's a damn good hint at caring and something that CAN be taken deeper (even if it isn't canon)

I just had to say that. That comment about it being your example that "actually" has small hints...*twitch*. Damn near anything has hints whether it's Het/Yuri/Yaoi. That line just...yes <_< Had to. I couldn't just leave that.

Shipper...what is it about that term that I hate? Maybe because I've just discovered a plethora of different "Ships''. Just...what the hell? o-0;;

[Animematt55]

uh oh...I have male friends....that must mean we are gay for each other

[same_animefan]

^And you know damn well that isn't what I meant. Quite simple. Hota/Chibi are two girls with a close friendship, slashed together for that reason. Naruto/Sasuke have a close- though they'd never admit it- friendship, slashed together for that reason.

You see, anime and fiction is rather different than real life. Because, if it really worked that way, than I must be 100% lesbian for all the female friends I have. I mean, really. Seperate real life from fantasy. This is an anime thread, be it Yaoi or Yuri subcatagories, it's still anime. I'm judging off the characters in the fictional show. And you did the same brining up Hota/chibi as having "actual" hints. They were friends. There is no more hinting between them than there is to Naru/Sasu (again. Keeping the same pairings for arguments sake).

[Animematt55]

see? everyone is gay because they have friends of the same gender!

I still have yet to see anything between the two of them. Hell, if my friend/rival/teammate died...i would be sad too. Naruto is very sensative, he even cried for Haku.

[same_animefan]

*shrugs* It depends on who you're talking to. For some, no matter what sexuality the characters, a friendship is all some people need to slash it. I still need something a little deeper than 'buddies' before I slash them. I may read the pairing, but I don't really have to see it in the show. One good example is Duo/Heero from GW. They seem to be one of the most popular Yaoi pairings...but I don't see it in the slightest 0-0;; Where? *looks around* I just don't see it.

And I have yet to see you mention anything about Hota/Chibi. It's always why you can't see any hint in Naru/Sasu. Start talking about them. Where are the excessive hints that are so much more beliveable than the ones in Naru/Sasu?

Also, he cried for Haku because he related personally and emotionally with what Haku was going through, having gone through it himself. Being isolated for what they were. Wanting to feel like someone cared, even if it was just one person. Hell, it's also the basics of Naruto/Sasuke's friendship. They know how the other feels without having to say it. I'm not saying Naruto isn't sensative. Or that it makes any more difference in how he acted towards Sasuke in that scene than if he hadn't. But that's just as easy to explain away as anything else.

[DazzleKitty]

uh oh...I have male friends....that must mean we are gay for each other

Okay, then if you really feel that sarcastic about it, Chibi Usa and Hotaru can't be lesbians, they are just friends. It's okay to you to slash two female characters who are only friends, so it should be okay for us to slash two male characters who are only friends.

This whole friendship argument doesn't apply to real life. This is fantasy, therefore we have excuses to slash.

[Xx0t0rixX]

You're wrong. Not all anime fangirls are like that. Just some.

And there are alot of guys that hate seeing guys in anime too y'know? Like whenever there's two guys kissing in an anime series, they would get pissed off. I think fangirls are more acceptable than fanguys.
God you just mocked yourself.
they're like talking about yaoi fangirls not just anime fangirls in general #1.
#2 I've never scene a guy flip out about yaoi he just chooses not to watch it. Fanboys are just as accepting as fangirls they just choose not to view yaoi thats all that is.

You're telling to creator of the thread to stop generalizing so why don't you follow and not be a hypocrite.

[Carmel]

Generalisation are made all around in this thread, it's the only way to get a point across. For instance, what about the yaoi fanboys? Yaoi fans in general? Why are we just talking of the females that like yaoi? A lot of guys are accepting, but the thing is, a lot aren't. That's why in the Yaoi/Yuri section and even outside of it, I find yaoi fans are often criticised and questioned like it's just such a mystery how we see pairings and why, yet yuri criticism remains a moot point.

Also, slashing someone that is slashable (like Hotaru and ChibiUsa for example) is different than say...Sasuke and Naruto.You can slash them all you want, but I see no romantic intentions between Hotaru and ChibiUsa. Your example has given way to a rather huge gap in logic, like usual.

[Defiled one]

"Picks a chair and sits"

This will be interesting....

As for my opinion in all of this.....Shall put it simple. After seeing this thread, I guess there is no hope for a Mutualism in here is it? why critics?...A person cannot judge a whole category by observing one of its kind behaviour. Why the bother? Why change a person`s ideals if it does not harm others?

I thought, that the point of a discussion was to achieve the "true" and not fighting "flaming" to see who is right or who is wrong...

Sigh... I only know, that I do not know.

[Shiroxx]

God you just mocked yourself.
they're like talking about yaoi fangirls not just anime fangirls in general #1.
#2 I've never scene a guy flip out about yaoi he just chooses not to watch it. Fanboys are just as accepting as fangirls they just choose not to view yaoi thats all that is.

You're telling to creator of the thread to stop generalizing so why don't you follow and not be a hypocrite.


So i'm mocking myself just because i made a typo? Oh, how ironic. Look who just had like 2 typos in one post?

If you have never seen a guy "flip out" of yaoi or is pissed out of it, then you're just ignorant in that area. Many guys have been pissed off simply because there were hints of yaoi in a shounen series, shoujo series, CLAMP series. And there are already a few examples of those guys here in this sub forum.

Try again.

[earsofdoom]

If you have never seen a guy "flip out" of yaoi or is pissed out of it, then you're just ignorant in that area. Many guys have been pissed off simply because there were hints of yaoi in a shounen series, shoujo series, CLAMP series.


If your talking about the FMA "hint's" that's becouse it spawned a Ed X Al Yaoi incest slash craze.


And there are already a few examples of those guys here in this sub forum.


WARNING: It's an attempt to Flame-bait.


You're wrong. Not all anime fangirls are like that. Just some.

And there are alot of guys that hate seeing guys in anime too y'know? Like whenever there's two guys kissing in an anime series, they would get pissed off. I think fangirls are more acceptable than fanguys.


Im curious.... if seeing two guy's kiss piss's them off then why would they be watching Yaoi? Also you seem to like attacking Male anime fan's allot.

[Shiroxx]

If your talking about the FMA "hint's" that's becouse it spawned a Ed X Al Yaoi incest slash craze.

No. I wasn't talking about FMA.


Im curious.... if seeing two guy's kiss piss's them off then why would they be watching Yaoi?

You need to start reading posts twice and understand it completely before you type a reply. Did i ever say the anime has to be YAOI? Did i? NO. There are shounen/shoujo etc anime/mangas that feature boy's love and kisses between two men or at least very convincing hints between the two.

Also you seem to like attacking Male anime fan's allot.

How? I was merely responding to someone's comments. Is that called "attacking"? or are you simply just very sensitive in the first place?

[earsofdoom]

You need to start reading posts twice and understand it completely before you type a reply. Did i ever say the anime has to be YAOI? Did i? NO. There are shounen/shoujo etc anime/mangas that feature boy's love and kisses between two men or at least very convincing hints between the two.


And you need to stop being so overly aggressive... seriously you would not leave me alone in the other topic, anyway's when someone say's "boy's kissing" what do you expect ppl to think? i don't usually think "o that Sci-fi"


How? I was merely responding to someone's comments. Is that called "attacking"? or are you simply just very sensitive in the first place?

If you want to respond to someone's comment's try doing it respectably and not add little remark's like "And there are already a few examples of those guys here in this sub forum." at the end of your post. regardless you made comment's calling fanboy's worse then fangirl's and other such comment's in this topic about male anime fan's.

Somone need's to get this Topic back on track so ill be the first to add something that's not intended as flame-bait, As long as the Yaoi fan doesn't try to convert with claim's that im helping some cause im not really bothered by them.

[Animematt55]

Wow, another ressurection? I will keep mine simple and not so mean this tiem i think.
To me it seems like, specifically yaoi fangirls, can't justify hating *insert female character here* except that she like s aguy, or has big boobs.....

[Shiroxx]

And you need to stop being so overly aggressive...

I wasn't being aggressive. Apparently, you seem to see anyone who has a different opinion than you as being aggresive and rude.


seriously you would not leave me alone in the other topic.

Ugh, what exactly are you trying to say here?


If you want to respond to someone's comment's try doing it respectably and not add little remark's like "And there are already a few examples of those guys here in this sub forum." at the end of your post. regardless you made comment's calling fanboy's worse then fangirl's and other such comment's in this topic about male anime fan's.

I am respectful. I can't help it if you like to interpret others' posts in a different way. My post was not meant to be insulting nor was it anyway insulting. Maybe you should start seeing things in a different perspective. There are indeed a few people who have posted here in this sub forum who has expressed disgust in BL in anime (and i mean anime in GENERAL.) That is a fact.

[Kaosgirl]

Im curious.... if seeing two guy's kiss piss's them off then why would they be watching Yaoi?

Perhaps they're watching something from another genre that just happened to have surprise-yaoi elements...

Also you seem to like attacking Male anime fan's allot.

Some of them have earned it.
Not all, just as some but not all yaoi fangirls have earned the criticisms being leveled at them in this very thread.

[earsofdoom]

Some of them have earned it.
Not all, just as some but not all yaoi fangirls have earned the criticisms being leveled at them in this very thread.

True, but she posted that msg on the first page before any male's could comment in this topic, regardless though she was talking about male fan's in general being worse not just the one's in the topic. Oh your new to this site arn't you? welcome to animenation. (wish i could have greeted you in a less tense topic)

[Kaosgirl]

True, but she posted that msg on the first page before any male's could comment in this topic, regardless though she was talking about male fan's in general being worse not just the one's in the topic. Oh your new to this site arn't you? welcome to animenation. (wish i could have greeted you in a less tense topic)

Heh, me too... I tend to get flamey in tense topics.

But - and I hate to say it - my experience does back her up a bit. Maybe it's just because I personally have more tolerance for the way girls express their fandom (and antifandom) than the way guys do, so the guys just hit 'annoying' faster. Maybe they just seem more intolerant (in general) because of that.

[Shiroxx]

True, but she posted that msg on the first page before any male's could comment in this topic, regardless though she was talking about male fan's in general being worse not just the one's in the topic. Oh your new to this site arn't you? welcome to animenation. (wish i could have greeted you in a less tense topic)

Jesus, is there a written rule that i'm supposed to wait for any male's response before i type my response? The person who had started this topic did not state that. You're being awfully rude and inconsiderate. And where the hell did i claim that "male fans in general being worse"? I said fangirls are usually more accepting than guys. Are you trying to start something or just want to ruin my reputation. Grow up and stop lying.

[Animematt55]

I said fangirls are usually more accepting than guys. .
not in my experience...they are much more close-minded to me. Most guys i know are like. "Kool i will give it a try" Then actually try it.
Most girls are very picky, especially the fangirls with their bishonen and all.

Although, i was surprised to find a girl that liked Burst Angel ad Mahoraba....shoulda got her number.

[DazzleKitty]

not in my experience...they are much more close-minded to me. Most guys i know are like. "Kool i will give it a try" Then actually try it.


Right, if I mentioned watching gay Japanese cartoons to some of the males in my life. they'd all be disgusted. Women generally seem to be more open to stuff. As I mentioned before, a tv network for women (Lifetime) has lots of lesbian movies they show regularly. All the mens channels just show action movies with lots of naked girls.
Not trying to pick at the guys, but this is what I have seen.

[Kaosgirl]

not in my experience...they are much more close-minded to me. Most guys i know are like. "Kool i will give it a try" Then actually try it.
Most girls are very picky, especially the fangirls with their bishonen and all.


My experience is the complete opposite... but this is why anecdotal evidence is next to worthless. It could just be your personality that skews the experience one way, or mine that skews it the other.

For example, if you're anything in real life like you are here, there's very few open-minded girls who would want to know you for long anyway. (Which sounds somewhat paradoxical, but isn't actually.)

[Haruhi]

Let me classify things in a way that will please everybody.


Yaoi fangirls/boys :

The good - Accepting of two men having feelings for each other and don't mind if neither aren't that hot and don't have sex. Appreciates the emotions between two men. Similarly, they accept the relationship between two women as something more than just sexual. Something deeper, more emotional and heartfelt.

The bad - Annoying, stupid people who want their men to be hot and have sex. I hate this type of mentality with a passion. If you are one of these, may you grow up someday. Also, very similarly, they want their women to be hot and have sex forever. A lot of perverts liked that about Strawberry Panic, actually.

The ugly - Girls who feel like yaoi is the best thing to anime since... well, animated men. This is actually worse than the bad. OTOH, men think anime hentai is what anime is all about. Ignorant, ignorant people.

[Animematt55]

Let me classify things in a way that will please everybody.


Yaoi fangirls/boys :

The good - Accepting of two men having feelings for each other and don't mind if neither aren't that hot and don't have sex. Appreciates the emotions between two men. Similarly, they accept the relationship between two women as something more than just sexual. Something deeper, more emotional and heartfelt.

The bad - Annoying, stupid people who want their men to be hot and have sex. I hate this type of mentality with a passion. If you are one of these, may you grow up someday. Also, very similarly, they want their women to be hot and have sex forever. A lot of perverts liked that about Strawberry Panic, actually.

The ugly - Girls who feel like yaoi is the best thing to anime since... well, animated men. This is actually worse than the bad. OTOH, men think anime hentai is what anime is all about. Ignorant, ignorant people.
Very well Categorized, thank you Haruhi.

[Kaosgirl]

Let me classify things in a way that will please everybody.


Yaoi fangirls/boys :

The good - Accepting of two men having feelings for each other and don't mind if neither aren't that hot and don't have sex. Appreciates the emotions between two men. Similarly, they accept the relationship between two women as something more than just sexual. Something deeper, more emotional and heartfelt.

The bad - Annoying, stupid people who want their men to be hot and have sex. I hate this type of mentality with a passion. If you are one of these, may you grow up someday. Also, very similarly, they want their women to be hot and have sex forever. A lot of perverts liked that about Strawberry Panic, actually.


Everyone prefers the characters to be hot. Some people can tolerate a lack of hotness (particularly if the story's good) but they'd still like it better if the characters were hot *in addition* to the good story. (Barring cases where the lack of hotness is directly required for the story.)

[typhonblue]

The ugly - Girls who feel like yaoi is the best thing to anime since... well, animated men. This is actually worse than the bad. OTOH, men think anime hentai is what anime is all about. Ignorant, ignorant people.

What is wrong with thinking a particular genre of anime/manga is the best thing ever?

I don't care if Matt or ears thinks yuri is the best thing ever, what bothers me is their insistance that everyone *else* think like them as well. And even that doesn't bother me if the arguments they presented were reasoned and well thought out instead of being a series of knee-jerk non-sequitors and stereotypical generalizations (without reference to peer-reviewed statistical studies.)

In short, everyone can like what they like as long as they don't spam. Spam is evil.

[{NG}Fidel]

Has this area of the fourm become a area where anime mat preaches that all yaoi fan girls hate girls in anime for some stupid reason.
Listen you may find that to be the case in some areas with certain people but thats not a general rule.
Your baising this off your friends and a couple people online. I can tell you that guys hate certain male characters as well. Personaly for me I dislike certain characters based on the actual character not gender or brains.

Lets chill out ok.
Lets not forget we are talking about fictional characters here lets not get worked up.

[Kaosgirl]

What is wrong with thinking a particular genre of anime/manga is the best thing ever?


Nothing... except that it often leads into...

I don't care if Matt or ears thinks yuri is the best thing ever, what bothers me is their insistance that everyone *else* think like them as well.


...the last half of that sentence.

Or the root of that insistence - the idea that everything else is garbage.


In short, everyone can like what they like as long as they don't spam. Spam is evil.

Eh, no. Evil can be cool sometimes (just look at all the hot bishi villains out there!) Spam is never cool.

[DazzleKitty]

What is wrong with thinking a particular genre of anime/manga is the best thing ever?
There isn't anything wrong with it unless you press what you like on others.

I don't care if Matt or ears thinks yuri is the best thing ever, what bothers me is their insistance that everyone *else* think like them as well.
Ditto on that. I think Matt is far worse than ears. At least ears can back up what he feels. Matt is just redundant and and spews out retarded crap.
I see topics in the general anime discussion where yuri chats will pop up (for example: in the Kaleido Star thread a while back). That's fine, but if someone brings yaoi into a topic, then people start attacking fangirls and yaoi. It kinda sucks.
No on questions why guys should like yuri. Heck, a lot of people think it's normal. However, like in the 'why do girls like angsty bishounen' , people think they have to analyze why girls like yaoi and pretty boys. I just don't get it. No one analyzes why guys like yuri.

I see Matt making fun of fangirls for liking pretty men who he thinks look like girls, but yet one of his favorite anime females (Haruka from Sailor Moon) may as well be a man. She even crossdresses a lot.

[earsofdoom]

.....ears thinks yuri is the best thing ever, what bothers me is their insistance that everyone *else* think like them as well.

Just becouse I expressed my opinion about Yaoi doesn't mean i think Yuri is the best thing "ever", It's a small genre i check up on every now and then whenever im not watching show's like bleach and Tsukihime.

There isn't anything wrong with it unless you press what you like on others.

Ditto on that. I think Matt is far worse than ears.

It seem's that after posting on one topic I somehow got unto this forum's hit list, I don't like the idea of ppl categorizing and judgeing me Just for expressing my opinion so ill be sure in the future to never post in a topic on this sub forum where ppl discuss these thing's becouse quite frankly i find ppl get bent out of shape far to easily. So with my final post let me just say that A) I am not a Rabid Yuri fan, I don't recall ever saying that Yuri was better then Yaoi all I've done is answer ppl's question's or assumption's about the genre. and B) I've never targeted Yaoi fan's on this forum, Which is why im rather saddened to see ppl useing me as an example for anything bad, My only opinion i expressed was about the Genre's popularity i never made post like "Dazzle annoy's..." or "typhon won't...." becouse I usually respect ppl's opinion's and don't blame them for something i don't think is right. thank you for reading my final post here I only hope that in the future if i ever decide to post on this part of the forum again (not these topic's though) That i don't see ppl useing me as an example of a close-minded fan just becouse they don't agree with me. Good-bye.

[DazzleKitty]

To be quite honest, I really can't think of anything ears has said that has made me mad. All of my anger just goes to Matt. I should have just cleared that up in my last post. I have nothing against you,ears.

And I am sure I am annoying a lot of people here. I kinda feel disliked because I probably said some mean things. I may leave too. Been comtemplating it for a while. AN isn't as much fun as it used to be. I have another forum I have been going to for a while now. I may just make that my main one.

[Haruhi]

I don't care if Matt or ears thinks yuri is the best thing ever, what bothers me is their insistance that everyone *else* think like them as well. And even that doesn't bother me if the arguments they presented were reasoned and well thought out instead of being a series of knee-jerk non-sequitors and stereotypical generalizations (without reference to peer-reviewed statistical studies.)

In short, everyone can like what they like as long as they don't spam. Spam is evil.

Who really cares what the ignorant think? Revel in the fact that your opinion is a more mature, obviously educated and sensible one and leave it at that.

[Animematt55]

Who really cares what the ignorant think? Revel in the fact that your opinion is a more mature, obviously educated and sensible one and leave it at that.
hey...thats mean....
I have never seriously said one is better than the other.

[DazzleKitty]

hey...thats mean....
I have never seriously said one is better than the other.

LOL! Yes, you have. And the way you pick at yaoi makes it obvious you think it inferior.

[Kaosgirl]

No on questions why guys should like yuri. Heck, a lot of people think it's normal. However, like in the 'why do girls like angsty bishounen' , people think they have to analyze why girls like yaoi and pretty boys. I just don't get it. No one analyzes why guys like yuri.


Male fascination with lesbian romance is... well, pretty much taken for granted these days. To the point that guys who *aren't* into watching two women make out (or further) are presumed to be gay. This is why no one questions guys who like yuri.

As for why yaoi gets questioned... I only have theories, and they're pretty much flamebait at this point in time, so I'll reserve them.

[typhonblue]

As for why yaoi gets questioned... I only have theories, and they're pretty much flamebait at this point in time, so I'll reserve them.

Well, you've piqued my interest!

[Haruhi]

hey...thats mean....
I have never seriously said one is better than the other.

Considering you troll yaoi threads, I think you got off pretty easy just being called ignorant, and not anything more serious. Like, oh, say... moderation.

Please do not enter another yaoi thread to start crap w/posters. Whether or not you have the intention to do so doesn't matter, as it happens anyways. So, I'm asking nicely, just stay out of yaoi threads if you hate them so much.

[earsofdoom]

Who really cares what the ignorant think? Revel in the fact that your opinion is a more mature, obviously educated and sensible one and leave it at that.

How odd, i decided to maybe give the forum another chance after 2 day's and find i am called ignorant.

[fujyoshi]

sometimes I do it's like "gah!! She's so mean I wish I was her" type 'a thing ya know.

[Haruhi]

How odd, i decided to maybe give the forum another chance after 2 day's and find i am called ignorant.

Ah, sorry. I wasn't thinking straight.

Ignorant is a pretty harsh word. Sorry about that.

However, I think you two have the wrong idea about yaoi fans and are generalizing them unfairly because of that. A lot of what you say seems to be aimed at a certain type of yaoi fangirls, which I don't think neither Shiroxx or typhonblue fall into. It's not really fair that you're giving the yaoi community a bad rap because some idiotic girls don't know when to keep their damn mouths shut about yaoi w/out being obnoxious. It is true that some yaoi fangirls just need to have the **** beat out of them, but I also think that certain fans who watch yaoi do so because they can appreciate the story, emotion and character development between two guys.

[Animematt55]

Ah, sorry. I wasn't thinking straight.

Ignorant is a pretty harsh word. Sorry about that.

However, I think you two have the wrong idea about yaoi fans and are generalizing them unfairly because of that. A lot of what you say seems to be aimed at a certain type of yaoi fangirls, which I don't think neither Shiroxx or typhonblue fall into. It's not really fair that you're giving the yaoi community a bad rap because some idiotic girls don't know when to keep their damn mouths shut about yaoi w/out being obnoxious. It is true that some yaoi fangirls just need to have the **** beat out of them, but I also think that certain fans who watch yaoi do so because they can appreciate the story, emotion and character development between two guys.
I am just sayign that i am not AGAINST yaoi. It just seems that people make more of than what it actually is. I even have a few BL manga....Petshop of horrors (on of my favorite manga), Demon Diary...Errie Queerie (kinda sucked in the middle on), and....hmm that is all i can remember for now.

[typhonblue]

I am just sayign that i am not AGAINST yaoi. It just seems that people make more of than what it actually is. I even have a few BL manga....Petshop of horrors (on of my favorite manga), Demon Diary...Errie Queerie (kinda sucked in the middle on), and....hmm that is all i can remember for now.

What is your point Matt? You're not against yaoi but it sucks? You're not against yaoi but people who like it should recognize it sucks? You're not against yaoi but people who like it should only like it as much as you deem appropriate?

I make a lot out of Yaoi both because I like it and because I think it's the vanguard of a social change towards accepting intimacy between men as normal, natural and part of being a fully integrated man(as well as desirable to the opposite sex.)

[Animematt55]

Where in that post did i say it sucks?
ANd i doubt it is anything revolutionary....Like i have said, there have been gay comics around for YEARS. The only thign special about it is that its from "the magical land of Japan" which makes a lot of people think it is unique

[typhonblue]

Where in that post did i say it sucks?
ANd i doubt it is anything revolutionary....Like i have said, there have been gay comics around for YEARS. The only thign special about it is that its from "the magical land of Japan" which makes a lot of people think it is unique

What's revolutionary about it is that it makes public the fact that women like men who are intimate with eachother.

What's revolutionary is that it sells male intimacy to women who are the creators and guardians of social mores and norms.

There has never been "gay porn for women" available commercially in the west. (Now there are a few small publishing companies trying to create some here and there.) Yaoi is an entirely new genre that the Japanese developed.

As for you saying it sucks, it's the general giest of almost all your messages on this forum. "Yaoi sucks and I don't know why girls like it(more then yuri)."

[GokuMew2]

Where in that post did i say it sucks?
ANd i doubt it is anything revolutionary....Like i have said, there have been gay comics around for YEARS. The only thign special about it is that its from "the magical land of Japan" which makes a lot of people think it is unique
Oh, but it IS unique. Regular gay comics are targeted towards gay men. Yaoi is targeted at WOMEN. The intended audience makes a world of a difference.

[Animematt55]

Oh, but it IS unique. Regular gay comics are targeted towards gay men. Yaoi is targeted at WOMEN. The intended audience makes a world of a difference.
There is a growing market of yaoi targeted at males too. Shota and "bara (i believe that is what it is called) are targeted at males.
There are also erotic stories (not necessarily comics) targeted at women here in America too.

[GokuMew2]

There is a growing market of yaoi targeted at males too. Shota and "bara (i believe that is what it is called) are targeted at males.
There are also erotic stories (not necessarily comics) targeted at women here in America too.
Bara does not fall within the yaoi genre. Just because something is male x male does not mean it is yaoi.

ANYway, the point is: whenever you post something, you're always saying that yaoi is not good, or something is better than it, or how yaoi is nothing special. Just leave the yaoi threads alone.

[Animematt55]

Bara does not fall within the yaoi genre.
umm.....yes it does....
what makes it not? Just cause it is targeted at males? Sorry to burst your bubble of happy fluffy love stories. But Yaoi is hentai...no matter how you sugar coat it. Yaoi are stories with maleXmale relations...so Bara is just that.

[typhonblue]

umm.....yes it does....
what makes it not? Just cause it is targeted at males? Sorry to burst your bubble of happy fluffy love stories. But Yaoi is hentai...no matter how you sugar coat it. Yaoi are stories with maleXmale relations...so Bara is just that.

*sigh* Matt... yaoi, as a genre, is targeted to *women*. That's what defines it as a genre. There may be men who enjoy it, but it is targeted *to* women, not men.

No one is arguing that yaoi isn't hentai, just that it isn't targeted to *MEN*. And that if it *is* targeted to men it's not yaoi.

Now, you can argue that yaoi contains themes that any human being could enjoy and that's plausible, but the fact remains that it is targeted to women and intended to appeal to them. Just like much of pornography and non-yaoi hentai is targeted to men.

[Animematt55]

*sigh* Matt... yaoi, as a genre, is targeted to *women*. That's what defines it as a genre. There may be men who enjoy it, but it is targeted *to* women, not men.

No one is arguing that yaoi isn't hentai, just that it isn't targeted to *MEN*. And that if it *is* targeted to men it's not yaoi.

Now, you can argue that yaoi contains themes that any human being could enjoy and that's plausible, but the fact remains that it is targeted to women and intended to appeal to them. Just like much of pornography and non-yaoi hentai is targeted to men.
ok, so if there is a maleXmale anime that is targeted at males, it is automatically just regular Hentai? And what makes Yaoi (maleXmale stories) so magical, is that they are targeted at women? doesn't make sense to me......
So then Bara, and Shota aren't Yaoi? even though they focus on maleXmale relationships?

[typhonblue]

ok, so if there is a maleXmale anime that is targeted at males, it is automatically just regular Hentai? And what makes Yaoi (maleXmale stories) so magical, is that they are targeted at women? doesn't make sense to me......
So then Bara, and Shota aren't Yaoi? even though they focus on maleXmale relationships?

Matt, yes, what makes yaoi special is that it is targeted to women.

I don't see why you have a problem with this. I don't see liking hentai as anything to be ashamed of but, honestly, there has been pornography and hentai targeted to men for ages now.

Yaoi is different because it is targeted to women.

[Animematt55]

Matt, yes, what makes yaoi special is that it is targeted to women.

I don't see why you have a problem with this. I don't see liking hentai as anything to be ashamed of but, honestly, there has been pornography and hentai targeted to men for ages now.

Yaoi is different because it is targeted to women.
where is your proof? Like i said, there is Bara, and Shota. Both are subgenres of the yaoi genre. I fail to see how women are so special in this.

[Shiroxx]

Bara and Shota are not subgenres of yaoi. They only have common themes.

[Animematt55]

Bara and Shota are not subgenres of yaoi. They only have common themes.
i disagree. A target audience does not specify a genre. Its contents do. I.E. two men having sex, etc etc, blah blah blah.
bara and shota have that.

[Shiroxx]

Since you're so into "proofs", where's the proof that shota and bara are both subgenres of YAOI? I would like to see you prove me wrong.

[Animematt55]

yaoi is abotu maleXmale relationships...
Bara and Shota are about maleXmale Relationships.....

[Shiroxx]

That's not proof. That's just your opinion. That's what you think is true. But what i want is proof and evidence that shota and bara are subgenres of yaoi. A proof, in this case, is when something is confirmed.

Josei and Seinen are both about malexfemale relationships, why aren't they classified in the same genre, but rather have two separate genres names for both? That's because they have different audiences to please. Both genres target different types of people.

[typhonblue]

So Children's books don't constitute a seperate genre of fiction from adults?

[GokuMew2]

Matt, you are not a fan of yaoi, therefore you would not know of its inner workings as well as fans do. That said, stop talking as if you know more about yaoi than yaoi fans do, because you don't.

[Shiroxx]

So Children's books don't constitute a seperate genre of fiction from adults?

*laughs*

Matt, Genres don't go according to sexual orientations, or sexuality in general.

[Animematt55]

So Children's books don't constitute a seperate genre of fiction from adults?
Children's is actually a seperate genre in books

[Animematt55]

Matt, you are not a fan of yaoi, therefore you would not know of its inner workings as well as fans do. That said, stop talking as if you know more about yaoi than yaoi fans do, because you don't.
i think i know better than you, seeing that i am a Major in sales/marketing. I most likely know a bit more about target marketing, genres, etc. than some random girl.

[typhonblue]

Children's is actually a seperate genre in books

And how is it seperated from Adult fiction? I mean, how does one define children's fiction vs. adult's fiction? Or Teen fiction?

*Without* refering to a target audiance that is.

[Animematt55]

i am not to up on literature. But content usually defines the age category.

[Kaosgirl]

i think i know better than you, seeing that i am a Major in sales/marketing. I most likely know a bit more about target marketing, genres, etc. than some random girl.

You'd think that, being a major in sales and marketting, they'd teach you not to act like you know everything about a demographic that you clearly know nothing about.

But then, that's probably why the R&D and production departments so rarely get along with the marketting departments...

[Animematt55]

But then, that's probably why the R&D and production departments so rarely get along with the marketting departments...
that reminds me of Dilbert comics....
and i do know what i am talking about. Your just trying to make Yaoi something it is not.
I mean, look at Yuri, it has many sides. There is stuff that is made strictly for women. Then you get the standard hentai girlXgirl scenes for the males.

[DazzleKitty]

Matt, you are not a fan of yaoi, therefore you would not know of its inner workings as well as fans do. That said, stop talking as if you know more about yaoi than yaoi fans do, because you don't.

I second this.

yaoi is abotu maleXmale relationships...
Bara and Shota are about maleXmale Relationships.....

Yes, but they have totally different target audiences and each has a different style of storytelling (from what I have seen).

If you really think that, then hentai is a subgenre of yuri, which you seem to be inclined to disagree with.

The mods already told him to knock this off. I wonder what they'll say next.

[Animematt55]

I second this.



Yes, but they have totally different target audiences and each has a different style of storytelling (from what I have seen).

If you really think that, then hentai is a subgenre of yuri, which you seem to be inclined to disagree with.

The mods already told him to knock this off. I wonder what they'll say next.
Yuri is a subgenre of Hentai, same with Yaoi, shota, etc etc.

And i am not doing anything. I am not being rude at all.

[DazzleKitty]

Yuri is a subgenre of Hentai, same with Yaoi, shota, etc etc.

And i am not doing anything. I am not being rude at all.

Then bara and shota would be subgenres of hentai, not yaoi. Yuri, Shota, Yaoi, and Bara should all be lumped under hentai in that case.

[Animematt55]

Then bara and shota would be subgenres of hentai, not yaoi. Yuri, Shota, Yaoi, and Bara should all be lumped under hentai in that case.
there is a heirarchy kinda thing.
Hentai->yaoi->shota, bara,....what ever other ones there are out there

there can also be stuff like
shoujo -> BL or shonen ->BL
Then of course you got the whole scifi, comedy etc stuff in there too.

[Kaosgirl]

that reminds me of Dilbert comics....
and i do know what i am talking about.

Yes, which is why you're constantly misrepresenting Yaoi and asking questions that show a clear lack of understanding of either of it's target markets...

Also...

Yuri is a subgenre of Hentai, same with Yaoi, shota, etc etc.


It would be more accurate to say that they are genres that cross over into Hentai. Hentai gets explicit; Yuri and Yaoi do not always do so, even when they do not instead qualify as shoujo-ai or BL.

[Animematt55]

guess you could call them cross overs too
But remember, hentai is basically anime with strong sexual images.

[Kaosgirl]

guess you could call them cross overs too
But remember, hentai is basically anime with strong sexual images.

Yes. And Yaoi does not necessarily contain more than implied sexual images.
It must contain at least that, else it's either BL or non-canon slash, but it need not contain more.

Which means yaoi is not necessarily hentai (though it can be.)

[DazzleKitty]

I missed an entire page of this and I really feel the need to comment.

ok, so if there is a maleXmale anime that is targeted at males, it is automatically just regular Hentai? And what makes Yaoi (maleXmale stories) so magical, is that they are targeted at women? doesn't make sense to me......
So then Bara, and Shota aren't Yaoi? even though they focus on maleXmale relationships?

If you are going to say that yaoi is not different from malexmale stories targeted to guys, then they may as well get rid of the shounen and shoujo labels for anime. Say you have a romance story in the shoujo genre and a romance story in the shounen genre. Why label them differently if they are the same premise? Because they both have different elements that cater to their certain target audience. That is why yaoi is different than male-oriented malexmale stories.

Yaoi is targeted to WOMEN, so it would technically be under the shoujo genre.

Usually bara is targeted to men, as is some shota, so it would fall under shounen.

Also, if you must say yaoi is hentai, then yaoi is the only hentai created for a female audience.

[Defiled one]

^ yeah!!! Yaoi is targeted to women...but it was men who invented it...nuff said

[typhonblue]

i am not to up on literature. But content usually defines the age category.

The age catagory defines the content.

Children's fiction is children's fiction because it is *targeted* towards children.

How many authors sit down, write a book, discover it's a pop-up about catapillars turning into butterflies and decide it's a children's book? Children's fiction is *SPECIFICALLY WRITTEN FOR CHILDREN*. That's what makes it different from adult fiction.

So, yeah, you're wrong. Some genres are very much defined by who they target. Like yaoi.

[typhonblue]

^ yeah!!! Yaoi is targeted to women...but it was men who invented it...nuff said

Men did *not* invent Yaoi.

[Defiled one]

Men did *not* invent Yaoi.

Sorry..they "discovered" it is the proper word....I just need to give a quick search on history..."goes to wikipedia"

[Animematt55]

Men did *not* invent Yaoi.
yes they did....men were the first ones to write gay stories. So they started the yaoi genre.

[typhonblue]

yes they did....men were the first ones to write gay stories. So they started the yaoi genre.

*sigh* Again, there are genres that are defined by their target audience.

Children's books. Shoujo and Shounen. Yaoi.

They are defined by the audience they are intended for.

Women invented the idea of gay stories *for* women. They may have been inspired by gay stories written by men for men, but they adapted them to create a completely new genre.

[{NG}Fidel]

Hrm...I am with matt here. Men invented basicly what Yaoi has within it. Women may be attracted to it on some level but they did not invent it.

[Kaosgirl]

I guess the question is, then: was it Yaoi before women got involved in it, or was it something else that women took and turned into Yaoi?

I get the feeling typhonblue is arguing the latter while you and matt are arguing the former.

(Either way, it's more of a historical point; what it was could very well be something completely different from what it is now, which would still mean that making statements on it Today based on what it was Yesterday is still as off as making statements on Yaoi based on Mecha.)

[Defiled one]

Nope..they just took because it maked the girls "hotties" from inside....it hasnt changed very much....with the exception of "Pederasty" one served of a role model..having to educate, love, study...etc.." The Seme and Suke"....like a "big brother"....

Men were already writing and drawing it before women took the lead of it...and the same thing happened to Yuri...a category for women who is now, mainly, for a male audience.

[typhonblue]

Nope..they just took because it maked the girls "hotties" from inside....it hasnt changed very much....with the exception of "Pederasty" one served of a role model..having to educate, love, study...etc.." The Seme and Suke"....like a "big brother"....

Men were already writing and drawing it before women took the lead of it...and the same thing happened to Yuri...a category for women who is now, mainly, for a male audience.

Hmm... so where's the historical(pre-1970s) published gay manga/anime for men from Japan? Can you name a title?

BTW, men were *aiming* their stories at other men, not women, so they weren't creating yaoi.

Just like all stories were once aimed at adults and the idea of aiming some at children had to be thought up and a methodology for making them child friendly developed. And a new genre was boen.

[Defiled one]

The problem is that The "Yaoi" that I am refering to is for a male audience....while BL "Boys love" is the type of Yaoi that is targeted to females...we must remind ourselves that Yaoi has a more strong "explicit" meaning...probably the "Yaoi" that I think you are trying to say is Shonen AI "BL"?.....

About....the Gay published stories that you said about 1970? well I think that it goes more older....for example in Japan, if i am not mistaken has the "Shunga" the roots of adult anime goes there...mostly images...I think it remounts to the Edo period

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9611/samuraikisslq5.jpg

[Animematt55]

.

Men were already writing and drawing it before women took the lead of it...and the same thing happened to Yuri...a category for women who is now, mainly, for a male audience.
your incorrect. Yuri is made for a female audience.
ANd yes they were creating "yaoi' way back then. Yaoi is just modern slang fr maleXmale stories (which includes BL etc.)

[Defiled one]

yeah.."shoujo ai"..some times I need to specify in order to make things understandable

[Animematt55]

Shoujo-ai has always been for women. But there has been a large increase in males like the shoujo genre over the years.

[Defiled one]

Yup.....but we also have to remember....in the current shoujo ai and shonen ai....who..and what quantity are the masses that see it? more females with no doubt...but males are increassing...I dont know...maybe it has to do with kanazuki no miko? "sarcasm...heavy sarcasm"

[GokuMew2]

The problem is that The "Yaoi" that I am refering to is for a male audience....while BL "Boys love" is the type of Yaoi that is targeted to females...we must remind ourselves that Yaoi has a more strong "explicit" meaning...probably the "Yaoi" that I think you are trying to say is Shonen AI "BL"?.....
No, yaoi = boy's love (BL). Also, shounen ai is NOT "soft" yaoi. Shounen ai is a defunct genre.

The main difference is that yaoi is tailored towards a female audience and this is what makes it yaoi. With a different audience, the way stories are told are dramatically different. In gay comics, they are told from the dominant character's point of view and focus on his pleasure. Yaoi is almost always told from the submissive character's POV, and often focuses on the RELATIONSHIP between the two and its development. (I'm leaving out PWP here.)

I wrote a research paper about yaoi for my English 1B class. I should post it here sometime. Though I doubt it would change anyone's position on the matter, at least it'll have a lot of information.

[Defiled one]

If it not to big to fit in here....I would like to read it.

[{NG}Fidel]

Just because its targeted towards females doesnt make it a female only intrest. I know men that like Yaoi and I can say myself that in any drama I am intrested in the realationships on all levels. Men are intrested in other things that just the sexual interactions of men. Gay men started yaoi in both a erotic way and a drama based way. The gay community is smaller than the women of our earth so it will always look as if women are what steer it but I dont believe that. Not saying that they dont have any influence what so ever though.

[Animematt55]

Just because its targeted towards females doesnt make it a female only intrest. I know men that like Yaoi and I can say myself that in any drama I am intrested in the realationships on all levels. Men are intrested in other things that just the sexual interactions of men. Gay men started yaoi in both a erotic way and a drama based way. The gay community is smaller than the women of our earth so it will always look as if women are what steer it but I dont believe that. Not saying that they dont have any influence what so ever though.
thank yo ufor saying what i was going to say...
Yaoi ARE gay comics. You girls are tryign to sugar coat it by saying that cause it is for females, and focuses on a relationship (not all of them are like that BTW) is what makes it Yaoi. Then you have the gawl to say that gay men make comics that only focus on the sexual intercourse....How sexist, and sad.

And GokuMew2....Shonen-ai IS Boy's love. Hell, it is practically a direct translation of it. I also doubt your eassay has any credibility too.

[DazzleKitty]

Matt, you are always arguing that yuri is for girls, so it could just be classified as lesbian comics created by and for any gender as well then, right?

Yaoi is gay comics, but the yaoi label means it's targeted to girls. That doesn't mean guys can't like it. I don't see what there is to argue about.
Gay comics targeted to guys are different than the ones targeted to girls, same for yuri. They have features that appeal to each gender.

[Animematt55]

Matt, you are always arguing that yuri is for girls, so it could just be classified as lesbian comics created by and for any gender as well then, right?
yeah, i have read a few online comics/stories.
Remember, there is always a "target' audience. Most of the japanese yaoi is targeted at females. But it is also read by males. Most of the yuri (not includign the standard hentai stuff...) is targeted at females.

[{NG}Fidel]

Yuri is a womans subject that more men are intrested in due to the larger number of staight males than lesbian females. Its a simple numbers game that even though it may be made by one type of person the larger group will buy it more and represent it more. That doesnt change who made it or whos society it represents.
Yaoi represents a form of homosexual male society while Yuri (These are both in certain cases) represents a form of homosexual female society.

[GokuMew2]

If it not to big to fit in here....I would like to read it.
I'll upload it when I've got time.

thank yo ufor saying what i was going to say...
Yaoi ARE gay comics. You girls are tryign to sugar coat it by saying that cause it is for females, and focuses on a relationship (not all of them are like that BTW) is what makes it Yaoi. Then you have the gawl to say that gay men make comics that only focus on the sexual intercourse....How sexist, and sad.

And GokuMew2....Shonen-ai IS Boy's love. Hell, it is practically a direct translation of it. I also doubt your eassay has any credibility too.
No doubt there are men who are into yaoi, just as there are women who like yuri. I don't deny that at all. What I'm saying, however, is that the MAIN point is that it is made BY women, FOR women. Now there may be some men who create it too but the majority is by women, and women are the ones who started it for women, and what's what makes yaoi unique, and a separate genre from those created by and for men.

http://www.aestheticism.com/visitors/reference/aestheticism.htm#yaoi
Read the shouen ai description. "...[T]hat flourished in the 1980's but is now no longer produced." And don't tell me they're wrong because Aestheticism is one of the most reputable yaoi resources out there and they certainly know more than you, who isn't even a yaoi fan.

As for my essay, don't say anything before you've even read it. My essay uses scholarly resources that have been peer reviewed and published in actual magazines. The authors of these articles study male homosexuality and society, and other relavant topics. My English teacher was brought up in a gay family so he knows what it's like, yet he was surprised that there was a market of male x male stories/stuff for women. As we've all said many times, the fact that yaoi is by and for women separates it from other gay genres.

[Lockheart]

You girls are tryign to sugar coat it by saying that cause it is for females, and focuses on a relationship (not all of them are like that BTW) is what makes it Yaoi.

Typhonblue, do you still have the link to the discussions about...

- Yaoi
- Why Kodaka Kazuma do not refer to her works as 'gay', because she feels her yaoi comics might cause some tension to some gay men if she does
- Tina Anderson's arguments
- I noticed you were a part of the discussions too. XD

Edit: I also doubt your eassay has any credibility too.

Logic denotes you actually have to read the thing for that claim to be legitimate. And here, I was beginning to have slight hopes for you too. :lol:

Carry on with this amusing wank.

[Animematt55]

i still don't get you girls. You think something is all great cause women make it? It isn't special. Yaoi is nothing more than maleXmale stories. You can't sugar coat it with 'being more about the relationship'. Like we have said....it has been around a lot longer than you think.
I also dont knwo who Kodaka Kazuma is...i assume she is a gay comic writer.

[DazzleKitty]

We sugarcoat yaoi just as much as you sugarcoat yuri. I mean, you go around claiming the yuri you like is different because it's targeted to girls. So if you can say that, then we can say yaoi is for girls.

No on is denying the fact that it's malexmale stories. The fact that it's targeted to women makes it different. That's what makes it special TO US.
I don't get you. This is just stupid to even debate. It's like you ran out of stuff to pick at on yaoi fans, so this is your next target.

[Dinco]

Yuri is a womans subject that more men are intrested in due to the larger number of staight males than lesbian females. Its a simple numbers game that even though it may be made by one type of person the larger group will buy it more and represent it more. That doesnt change who made it or whos society it represents.
Yaoi represents a form of homosexual male society while Yuri (These are both in certain cases) represents a form of homosexual female society.
Most yuri comes from shoujo manga read by females. This is an undeniable fact. Women definitely dominate the fandom, if you don't believe this go to a convention. Bi and straight women also make up a huge part of the fan population as well. Straight females like it becuase of the romance and coupling part of it. There's a decent male following in the US of course, but "Yuri" porn gives people a false conception of the entire thing. There's really not much overlap at all between the porn and romance people at all.

[GokuMew2]

i still don't get you girls. You think something is all great cause women make it? It isn't special. Yaoi is nothing more than maleXmale stories. You can't sugar coat it with 'being more about the relationship'. Like we have said....it has been around a lot longer than you think.
I also dont knwo who Kodaka Kazuma is...i assume she is a gay comic writer.
That is a very sexist comment. You're basically saying that works that women create are not special. Think about art. What makes something valuable often depends highly on who created it, and in yaoi's case, this is women. So yes, yaoi is special because it is created by and for women. I mean, what makes anime, anime? It's because Japanese people create it. Anime is a work of art, not just kiddy cartoons. The creator makes the work unique, so women writing stories dealing with male homosexuality makes yaoi unique.

Gay material has been around for a long time, yes. But gay material BY and FOR women has not. You don't seem to be able to distinguish between the two.

Kodaka Kazuma is a yaoi mangaka, responsible for popular works such as Kizuna and the recently licensed Midare Somenishi. There is a difference between yaoi and gay comics. Stop lumping them together.

And I don't get you, Matt. You go into yaoi threads and talk as if you know everything about it when you are neither a fan nor someone who respects the genre. This makes what YOU say not credible.

[Dinco]

Animematt doesn't represent male yuri fans. Most anti-yaoi people like him are laughed at and flamed at yuri boards. He can get away with it here though, obviously.

[Animematt55]

so...if a woman creates something...it is all great...but if it is a man....then it isnt anything good?
And yes i was saying that works created by women arent special. I dont give a damn about their sex at all....it doesnt matter weather they are male or female.
You girls seem to be what they call "japanophiles". You think.."oh, this is from japan, so it is so cool."
and what makes anime, anime isnt cause it is from japan. Anime translates to animation....animation is cartoons.
So Yaoi is just maleXmale stories.....

[GokuMew2]

so...if a woman creates something...it is all great...but if it is a man....then it isnt anything good?
Who the hell ever said that?
No one here has ever bashed yuri yet you constantly talk crap about yaoi. We don't want to hear it! We know you don't like yaoi. That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But SHUT THE HELL UP. We don't need to hear how much you dislike it every other post, nor do we need you to explain to us what the genre is or isn't.

You've been warned by the mods to stop starting sh-t in yaoi threads yet you continue to do so. When will you learn? Stop going into the yaoi threads if you don't like yaoi.

PS You need to learn to spell.

[Animematt55]

I never said i hated yaoi....i have read demon diary, petshop of horrors, ummmm, i cant remember the other ones at the moment.

[GokuMew2]

I never said i hated yaoi....i have read demon diary, petshop of horrors, ummmm, i cant remember the other ones at the moment.
I said don't like, not hate. Can you read?
Just reading a few titles does not make you an expert on the genre. Many of your posts have been about how yuri is better than yaoi, or there's too much yaoi out there. That shows that you are not into the genre. If you're not into it then stay out of the threads.

Why you haven't been banned yet I'll never know.

[typhonblue]

so...if a woman creates something...it is all great...but if it is a man....then it isnt anything good?

No one is using a value system here, Matt.

When Goku says that yaoi is special because women made it, I don't think she's saying that it is special in the sense of _better than_ gay comics. I think she means it in the sense that it is _different_ then gay comics.

To reverse it, gay media special because they are made by men. Having men as authors and creators explores a different aspect of homosexuality that is divorced from what women fantasize it to be.

I have read both gay short stories, comics and various other media. There *is* a big difference between gay and yaoi. Although it is hard to define in words what that difference is.

Mainly, I believe, it is the lack of gay-identity-forming in Yaoi that makes it different. In much gay media the gay identity or lifestyle takes precedence even over the characters themselves. They *are* gay and often that's the main point of the story.

Yaoi doesn't usually give the essentialist definition of homosexuality in men a passing nod.

[GokuMew2]

When Goku says that yaoi is special because women made it, I don't think she's saying that it is special in the sense of _better than_ gay comics. I think she means it in the sense that it is _different_ then gay comics.
Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry for not making it explicit. Apparently if you don't say something directly, Matt won't be able to comprehend. Poor boy needs everything spelled out for him.

[Bernard_Monsha]

Animematt55 is going to take a break for a few days, hopefully his disposition will improve.

[{NG}Fidel]

While my views on the subject of Yaoi being something men created are the same as AnimeMatts I do hope all of you yaoi fans realize I dont have the same jadded views as matt. I respect all of your opinions and really we cant ever come to a final truth in this matter without going out and fliping through the pages of gay culture to find its first roots and who published the first gay drama thats male x male. Personaly I find Yuri to be mostly distasteful because straight males normally are not looking for a love story when two beautifully drawn anime girls are drawn together. As a result its mainly hentai which isnt a problem but isnt the greatest either.
I hope you all realize what I am saying I know I get garbled at times. ^_^

[DazzleKitty]

so...if a woman creates something...it is all great...but if it is a man....then it isnt anything good?


No one ever said that. Something created by a woman is most likely to appeal to other women, and it would also differ in some ways than if it was created by a man. I didn't see anyone here say if something was created by a man that it would be bad. I just may not appeal to certain crowds as much as other things would. You're putting words in people's mouth.

And how the heck did Japanophiles get brought into this? I've read plenty of Japanese stuff that I thought was crap, so I guess I don't fall into this, do I?

Matt's only read a few yaoi things. I would talk to him on AIM, and he would praise like 1 or 2 titles, then bash all the rest. He's really pick with yaoi (no rape, no forced kisses, no dominance, no sex), but he doesn't seem to mind any of that in yuri (Kannazuki no Miko had an almost-rape scene, and I think he watched that).
Can members get banned for harassing others? Matt would AIM me a lot to try to start arguments and he also keeps on putting out this other personal insult (I know it's the internet, but it's a touchy subject). I finally blocked him, but he still ticked me off.
EDIT: Heh, I just noticed he got a temporary ban. I wonder if that will make him stop trolling?

[Defiled one]

OWo.....I Sleep for 8 hours and world war 3 breaks loose?...shees....I have no comment...I was just trying to find roots of Yaoi and Yuri...in the past..not in the present where everybody knows that the market is for both genders...I mean Clamp..made my favourite Shoujo ai anime "Miyuki chan in wonderland"...and it was made by women..and it was the best thing I have ever seen in Shoujo ai....plus...what the hell happened?.....japanophiles?

[Dinco]

Personaly I find Yuri to be mostly distasteful because straight males normally are not looking for a love story when two beautifully drawn anime girls are drawn together. As a result its mainly hentai which isnt a problem but isnt the greatest either.
I hope you all realize what I am saying I know I get garbled at times. ^_^
Honestly, I don't think you have any idea of what your're talking about. "Mostly hentai." ???????... damn. The two most popular yuri pairings are from Sailor Moon and Utena, can you explain to me how those are exactly hentai titles? Not to mention other significant shows like Battle Athletes Victory, Maria-sama na Miteru, Noir, Kannazuki no Miko, and Strawberry Panic that came afterwards. How are those hentai shows? And like I said the whole culture was born in shoujo romance manga read by girls. This is a good sample of that: http://www.lililicious.net/ Those aren't hentai manga. The whole thing is very much about romance, like you denied.

But you're confusing what comes up in the google search in the form of porn sites as the fandom and that's just wrong. I mean really, there's a lot of straight porn hentai too, does that mean all people who are fans of shows and manga with straight couples are horny freaks? Please stop with the ignorant assumptions. Hell there isn't even a lot of girl/girl stuff in hentai in general. The male Japanese henatai audience definitely prefers it straight, even in the doujin of yuri shows. I'm a male fan and I very much like it for the romance, as do most of the other male fans who are real fans and not just in it for jerk off material which they find at porn sites, not the anime or manga that are referred to in these lists: http://www.shoujoai.com/forum/topic_show.pl?tid=29037
http://www.shoujoai.com/forum/topic_show.pl?tid=31746;pg=1

The same is true for yaoi if I image search the word in google a bunch of graphic pictures of anal sex will show up, but how does that bleed over into the whole fandom? Your opinion though is representative of how in our own society everyone assumes lesbian = porn, and can't get over stupid taboos that were engrained into their heads by the biased people around them since childhood. Anyone who likes yaoi and calls those who like yuri perverts does indeed have some problems with hypocrisy. Perhaps calling you a hypocrite would be going overboard and I am being too harsh with this post, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but you should really learn about certain subjects before you decide to start talking about them. You made the exact same mistake Animematt has made.

And as for the make up of yuri fandom, females definitely hold the majority share, probably about 60-70%. At least those who are active in the fandom anyways.

[{NG}Fidel]

I was not talking about yuri based on what material is most widely known or popular. Rather that I feel more hentai yuri is made due to an allmost no need for a story and crude character design thus it can be churned out much faster than yuri with a real story. While The realationship yuri is of much higher quality I feel the hentai yuri is most likely of much higher quantity.,

[MHenderson]

Girls don't watch yaoi, it's just gay men in disguise.

[typhonblue]

Girls don't watch yaoi, it's just gay men in disguise.

Wow. That's news to me.

Just spent three days at Yaoi-Con and if those girls are gay men in disguise then... what can I say?

Two Gay Dudes Disguised as Yaoi Fangirls (http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c331/typhonblue/yaoiHidalgo.jpg)

[Animematt55]

Wow. That's news to me.

Just spent three days at Yaoi-Con and if those girls are gay men in disguise then... what can I say?

Two Gay Dudes Disguised as Yaoi Fangirls (http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c331/typhonblue/yaoiHidalgo.jpg)
Those are guys. It is a shop, i can tell from teh pixels and havign seen many shops in my day. :P

[same_animefan]

Girls don't watch yaoi, it's just gay men in disguise.

Really? I'm a man? News to me :P

[Kaosgirl]

Really? I'm a man? News to me :P

I've known a few people who considered themselves gay men trapped in women's bodies...

(Most were just just playing off the "male lesbian" joke, but I think some of them were serious.)

[Animematt55]

I've known a few people who considered themselves gay men trapped in women's bodies...

(Most were just just playing off the "male lesbian" joke, but I think some of them were serious.)
at AARINFantasy, they have a HUGE thread, all saying they want to be gay men....
I bet they have never heard of 'bears' though.

[DazzleKitty]

I saw bear porn once by accident. I stumbled upon it.....gawd, I wish I never seen it. What horrible memories.....

[Animematt55]

I saw bear porn once by accident. I stumbled upon it.....gawd, I wish I never seen it. What horrible memories.....
They are still gay guys....i thought you liked gay guys.

[DazzleKitty]

They are still gay guys....i thought you liked gay guys.

I don't like people just because they are gay. When I want to look at smut, I want the people to at least be visually appealing.

[Kaosgirl]

I don't like people just because they are gay. When I want to look at smut, I want the people to at least be visually appealing.

If they make porn involving it, *someone* has to be finding it attractive.

Just not me...

[DazzleKitty]

If they make porn involving it, *someone* has to be finding it attractive.

Just not me...

Haha, that's true. There is lots of scary porn out there. Oh well, different strokes for different folks.

[Ariel Tsuki]

I've known a few people who considered themselves gay men trapped in women's bodies...

(Most were just just playing off the "male lesbian" joke, but I think some of them were serious.)

LMAO, I done this joke so many times in college, it's not even funny (although it was funny everytime I said it). I jokingly considered myself as a gay man in a women's body because I'm not very girly (my family can vouch for this) and I absolutely adore men to the point it's scary (my favorite body part on the man is the hips for some odd reason and I find the male phyisque and sensuality very, very appealing). And I tend to treat men how men treat women. But it was all in good fun.

[Animematt55]

LMAO, I done this joke so many times in college, it's not even funny (although it was funny everytime I said it). I jokingly considered myself as a gay man in a women's body because I'm not very girly (my family can vouch for this) and I absolutely adore men to the point it's scary (my favorite body part on the man is the hips for some odd reason and I find the male phyisque and sensuality very, very appealing). And I tend to treat men how men treat women. But it was all in good fun.
most of them were actually quite serious. So it is kinda scary. Plus they talk about stalking gay couples around bars and town too....Of course they only like the cute gay guys, but hate the..more normal...looking guys...

[kittynboi]

Of course they only like the cute gay guys, but hate the..more normal...looking guys...

Sounds kind of like me only without the being female and hetero part.

[kittynboi]

They are still gay guys....i thought you liked gay guys.

So do I, but bear = X_X

[DazzleKitty]

Of course they only like the cute gay guys, but hate the..more normal...looking guys...

Kinda like how guys will only go for for the 'hot' lesbians, not the 'butch' ones, eh?

[Animematt55]

Kinda like how guys will only go for for the 'hot' lesbians, not the 'butch' ones, eh?
i like some of the 'soft butch' girls. Like Haruka

[earsofdoom]

Why do i get the feeling this is going to end in lesbian bashing again?

[Ayyu]

I believe so many girls like yaoi because they're dissatisfied with anime's portrayal of women.

I read some intriguing articles on yaoi a while back and it said that a survey showed that the overwhelming majority of yaoi/slash fans were tomboys in their childhood, and liked adventures over romance. They're basically the kinds of girls who don't fit in with people's idea of "femininity" and don't want to, because they can't identify with such women (I'm like that). Jealousy or a desire to be "feminine" has nothing to do with it. xD To me, the feminine act is just too fake to bother with. It's not me, and I don't need a guy who needs it.

I'm not a yaoi fan, but I can see why they're that way. They want to see a couple who are true partners, comrades. To me at least, het romance rarely feels that way. It leaves me feeling disappointed and annoyed because the female character subordinates herself (I'm sure a lot of people would see this as normal and thus be unfazed). If a guy did that, would you like him? Probably not. Well, I expect women to be as level-headed and confident and cool, not in a domineering-***** way, but simply as a human being. Stupidity and submissiveness and wimpiness can be cute to a degree, but so many female characters cross the line from "cute" to just plain moronic and degrading. Some anime have het couples that feel equal, but they're not too common.

I think the same way as a yaoi fan, but I prefer het because it's possible to have a het relationship without any patriarchal undertones. Yaoi can be great if done well, but it just feels like it's given up on women altogether. I say, just make the women characters awesome as human beings as well as women. :P

[earsofdoom]

I believe so many girls like yaoi because they're dissatisfied with anime's portrayal of women.

I read some intriguing articles on yaoi a while back and it said that a survey showed that the overwhelming majority of yaoi/slash fans were tomboys in their childhood, and liked adventures over romance. They're basically the kinds of girls who don't fit in with people's idea of "femininity" and don't want to, because they can't identify with such women (I'm like that). Jealousy or a desire to be "feminine" has nothing to do with it. xD To me, the feminine act is just too fake to bother with. It's not me, and I don't need a guy who needs it.

I'm not a yaoi fan, but I can see why they're that way. They want to see a couple who are true partners, comrades.


I can't say i really see that, Yaoi often has huge uke and seme complex's so i can't see women likeing it becouse "they are both equal". Same with the whiny female hateing, allot of title's have a whiny person but the only difference is they are a male.

[ZoharContact]

It depends upon what you define as "feminine," but I agree with Ayyu completely! ^_^

Sometimes female anime characters are infinitely more interesting than the best ones you find in our media. For example (although this is just my opinion, of course): Utena, Juri, Misato, hmm... Haruka (lead female character in RahXephon), Juna (from Earth Girl Arjuna), and Mireille and Kirika (Yay!) among many others... so many others.

Often it seems the more popular anime have the characters you're talking about, like the girls in some shoujo manga whose main purpose is to be protected over and over again as they crush on the main male character: (Miaka from Fushigi Yuugi, etc.) Then there are the girls in shounen anime who are supposedly capable, yet often wind up doing nothing but instilling emotional tension in certain scenes. (Sakura and Hinata from Naruto, Tsukino from Yakitate Japan, all female characters from the Rurouni Kenshin TV series)

Then there are special cases where they take a character with the typical qualities of the "girl next door" archetype, or something similar, and do something special in her portrayal. For example, when I saw Fruits Basket, I thought Touru was the kind of character that people of all sexes could use as a role model, at least regarding her attitude in dealing with people. And in the Rurouni Kenshin OVAs, I thought Kaoru and Tomoe were portrayed with extraordinary strength of character. (And, although it's an example no one here can really confirm or deny... yet... I think that Kei - of the Akai Ito game I'm translating - manages to be a spacey doofus without being defenseless, or being an idiot.)

At any rate, I think it's a good idea to keep a shifting idea of exactly what "feminine" or "masculine" means, basically picking and choosing what traits sound good to you. Of course, if it were up to my ideals, I would eliminate the two extremes and just evaluate all people equally. However, with all the extremities that are forced fed into my mind everyday through the language I read and hear, truly achieving that goal seems like what the Japanese would call, "yume no naka no yume no hanashi."

[Defiled one]

I do have to confess, that I dont like the way anime portrays girls....they are phisicly too enhanced... that begins to be less realistic in a sense....im not saying that I dont like them but..breasts dont do that and the panty shots...plus the face are too cute...I dont see mature face of girls anymore in anime very often.

Plus, the mentality of the girl seems too childlike...to polite to "males" in comparison to the real world....

So...you cant really make a critic of fangirls who say that they dont like those female characters and such....because...well, Im personaly not fond of female characters who`s main objective seems to be married and be like a "servent" to the husband.....Yaoi is a new air in a sense...doesnt have those cliches. Of course if a yaoi couple actualy saw how some females stalk them....they could get traumatized, for life.

[earsofdoom]

^you'd probably like Saber from Fate/stay night.

EDIT: replying to zohar's post, just didn't get it written in time.

[Animematt55]

I do have to confess, that I dont like the way anime portrays girls....they are phisicly too enhanced... that begins to be less realistic in a sense....im not saying that I dont like them but..breasts dont do that and the panty shots...plus the face are too cute...I dont see mature face of girls anymore in anime very often.

Plus, the mentality of the girl seems too childlike...to polite to "males" in comparison to the real world....

So...you cant really make a critic of fangirls who say that they dont like those female characters and such....because...well, Im personaly not fond of female characters who`s main objective seems to be married and be like a "servent" to the husband.....Yaoi is a new air in a sense...doesnt have those cliches. Of course if a yaoi couple actualy saw how some females stalk them....they could get traumatized, for life.
what anime are you watching? I don't know very many anime that are like that.
Why are girls so picky about the female characters. I mean if a girl is cute and submissive, she is hated because of that. If she is too strong and head strong, se is a *****. If she isnt really strong, but strong enough to handle herself...there is ONE scene where she is defeated soemhow, and is now seen as totally weak. Nothing is good enough for theIt seems that the only character that they will like is some girl who is both nice, strong, and doesnt have any interest in any guys....and of course can ALWAYS defeat the main enemy on her own without any trouble.
Heck, if you girls like strong female characters, go with Mai HIme, it is an excellent show.

[GokuMew2]

^you'd probably like Saber from Fate/stay night.
Saber is pretty cool. But alas, my heart lies with Archer. He gets no luv even though he's the most popular male character and was ranked #3 on the official chara poll (Saber and Rin being 1 and 2). .;_;

*cough* Sorry, I think we were talking about female characters.

I agree with Ayyu. Um, see my yaoi research paper for more. .^^;

EDIT:
what anime are you watching? I don't know very many anime that are like that.
Why are girls so picky about the female characters. I mean if a girl is cute and submissive, she is hated because of that. If she is too strong and head strong, se is a *****. If she isnt really strong, but strong enough to handle herself...there is ONE scene where she is defeated soemhow, and is now seen as totally weak. Nothing is good enough for theIt seems that the only character that they will like is some girl who is both nice, strong, and doesnt have any interest in any guys....and of course can ALWAYS defeat the main enemy on her own without any trouble.
Heck, if you girls like strong female characters, go with Mai HIme, it is an excellent show.
Dude, let people have their opinions!
You take what everyone says to the extreme. We're talking about it in a GENERAL sense. Everyone has exceptions.

[Defiled one]

Matt..My tastes are my tastes, just like you, have your tastes...Of course we are generelizing everything because it would be impossible to interrogate all human beings concerning this topic

[typhonblue]

I believe so many girls like yaoi because they're dissatisfied with anime's portrayal of women.

I've always thought the human need to explain why they like X in terms of what's wrong with Y to be somewhat... er... limiting.

I like yaoi not because I hate the portrayl of women in media, but because I like the portrayl of men *more*.

And if they were to portray women the way they portray men, it just wouldn't work, at least not for me. It would be bad characterization.

I read some intriguing articles on yaoi a while back and it said that a survey showed that the overwhelming majority of yaoi/slash fans were tomboys in their childhood, and liked adventures over romance. They're basically the kinds of girls who don't fit in with people's idea of "femininity" and don't want to, because they can't identify with such women (I'm like that). Jealousy or a desire to be "feminine" has nothing to do with it. xD To me, the feminine act is just too fake to bother with. It's not me, and I don't need a guy who needs it.

I would say that might hold in the west (although tomboys probably are "first adopters" and the demographics will change as the genre gets wider exposure) but I don't think it's the same in the east.

Many of the asian yaoi fans I've met or seen pictures of are feminine.

I'm not a yaoi fan, but I can see why they're that way. They want to see a couple who are true partners, comrades. To me at least, het romance rarely feels that way. It leaves me feeling disappointed and annoyed because the female character subordinates herself (I'm sure a lot of people would see this as normal and thus be unfazed).

I'm not sure I grok this interpretation. In most of the western media, at least, it's the *male* character that subordinates himself to the female. The female's needs, interests and requirements become pivot points for his actions. For example, letsay the hero wants to do X for his own ends and the heroine(who probably has treated him like crap up until this point) dissaproves. The hero will inevitably sacrifice his own interests to please her. Or he won't and the author of the story will punish him for it until he sees the light and subtends his interests for hers.

Even if he's taking the *lead* in pursuing her interests, it's still *her* interests that are pursued.

If a guy did that, would you like him? Probably not.

Nope. And it's *that's* the reason I hate most western romance.

I think the same way as a yaoi fan, but I prefer het because it's possible to have a het relationship without any patriarchal undertones. Yaoi can be great if done well, but it just feels like it's given up on women altogether.

And what's wrong with that? I like exploration of the male psyche *without* women's involvement. Because when women get involved they bring to bear complications and expectations that are... well... not fun.
(Particularly when it's your mother-in-law bringing in those complications and expectations. Gak!)

BTW, what are "patriarchal undertones?"

I'll grant you that there may be some in Japanese media, but I wonder if you can give me a recent example in western media.

[ZoharContact]

BTW, what are "patriarchal undertones?"

I'll grant you that there may be some in Japanese media, but I wonder if you can give me a recent example in western media.......

::remains silent:: :-"

[DazzleKitty]

Eh, I actually can see lots of 'patriarchal undertones' in lots of Western Media. That is, if I am interpreting what you guys mean right. Not that there isn't entertainment for women, but a majority of the media caters to a male audience.

For example, look at a lot of music videos and action movies....

[earsofdoom]

Eh, I actually can see lots of 'patriarchal undertones' in lots of Western Media. That is, if I am interpreting what you guys mean right. Not that there isn't entertainment for women, but a majority of the media caters to a male audience.

Allot of it now is reality tv crap like swapping moms,dads,house's, kidney's, etc. I don't think they really aim at any audiance, (sadly both gender's will mindlessly watch them) with the occational generic E.R room show, court show, and crime scene investigator show. the only real show's that strike me as catered to men are those one's on mentv (my god.... what a degrading channel) but then again i rarely watch tv anymore.


For example, look at a lot of music videos and action movies....

I'll agree with the music video's (i blame the rapper's.... why are ppl still watching MTV anyway's?) but there haven't been many action movie's (i think there was one called "Crank" awhile ago) lately it's all been remake's of old... and much better then the remake movie's, and kiddy stuff spammed out by disney faster then you can say "done before". On a side note i think i just explained why the only reason i ever turn on my TV is to play RPG's :lol:

EDIT: Almost forgot about the "horrible rip-off of a japanese horror novel" movie's..... i think im done ranting about western entertainment now :P

[Animematt55]

Allot of it now is reality tv crap like swapping moms,dads,house's, kidney's, etc. I don't think they really aim at any audiance, (sadly both gender's will mindlessly watch them) with the occational generic E.R room show, court show, and crime scene investigator show. the only real show's that strike me as catered to men are those one's on mentv (my god.... what a degrading channel) but then again i rarely watch tv anymore.



Is it so wrogn for men to have their own channel? I mena women have their own, so we should have our own.
And about Reality TV...having seen some of them, they are more catered towards women cause of all of the pretty young guys with the perfect bodies, always walkign around shirtless.

[DazzleKitty]

There is nothing wrong with any gender having their own channel. Lifetime kinda embarassed me....it may as well be called the Man-Hater's Channel. Every guy in it is portrayed as a rapist, wife beater, cheater, or murderer.

And I have no idea what reality show you are talking about, Matt. I must have missed something. Or maybe it's another one of your crazy ideas you pulled out of Lala land.

And ears, it's not just the rappers, country music is like that too.
Heh, I dislike those switching shows. I've watched parts of them and they just seem so retarded. I saw part of this one Nanny 911 (or something like that) show....very stupid. I don't like reality tv. Actually, if American Idol counts as reality tv, I do watch that. But it's only for Simon and the auditions.

[Animematt55]

And I have no idea what reality show you are talking about, Matt. I must have missed something. Or maybe it's another one of your crazy ideas you pulled out of Lala land.

THose island ones....and that one where they put the college kids into an expensive apartment and tell them to argue.

[typhonblue]

The majority of what happens on TV is geared towards women because women are the biggest spenders.

Much of the movie industry is also geared towards a female audiance.

I'm guessing from your examples that "patriarchal undertones" means "aimed to a male audiance."

Does that mean yaoi has "matriarchal undertones"?

[same_animefan]

THose island ones....and that one where they put the college kids into an expensive apartment and tell them to argue.

I'm not a fan of Reality TV or anything, but I feel I need to point this out. Those reality shows have as many topless hot women as hot topless men. There really is no argument in that. If you've a actually watched an episode of Survivor (the island one) all the girls walk around using their banndanas as a mini skirt or a tube top. (how they manage getting those things to stay, I'm still clueless :blink: )

Of course, something like The Batchlor/batchloret (most retarted show ever. No offense to those who like it) I can see you saying is targetted at women.

The collegs ones like the Real World that you mentaion also has the same hot girl to hot guy ratio, which is pretty much equal.

[Animematt55]

I'm not a fan of Reality TV or anything, but I feel I need to point this out. Those reality shows have as many topless hot women as hot topless men. There really is no argument in that. If you've a actually watched an episode of Survivor (the island one) all the girls walk around using their banndanas as a mini skirt or a tube top. (how they manage getting those things to stay, I'm still clueless :blink: )

Of course, something like The Batchlor/batchloret (most retarted show ever. No offense to those who like it) I can see you saying is targetted at women.

The collegs ones like the Real World that you mentaion also has the same hot girl to hot guy ratio, which is pretty much equal.
i dont remember any topless girls....
And those werent bandanas...they were actual tube tops, and articlas of clothings, not just plain bandanas. Plus when on a desert island...it does get super humid....

[DazzleKitty]

i dont remember any topless girls....


But of course you'll remember the hot guys.

[earsofdoom]

..... they were allowed to show a nude topless girl on TV?

[Animematt55]

..... they were allowed to show a nude topless girl on TV?
i dont think so....i would remember big censor bars...

[DazzleKitty]

Topless can also refer to women wearing the top part of a bikini or something very skimpy.

[Animematt55]

Topless can also refer to women wearing the top part of a bikini or something very skimpy.
what? since when did wearing a bikini mean you are naked?

[same_animefan]

Since when do they censor a girl in a thong bikini that shows her whole ***, or when she's wearing a top that is closer to an A cup than the C they normally would be? And yes, I have seen girls with their tops off on reality tv. Censored, yes, but especially in the Real World and shows centering around that scene with partying and such. ( A drinking party in a hot tub).

Survivor not so much, but it depends on what the show is focusing around. The whole point of what I said was that the Reality shows don't just focus on eye candy for the women, but that there is also plenty of Women for the men to watch.

[typhonblue]

Since when do they censor a girl in a thong bikini that shows her whole ***, or when she's wearing a top that is closer to an A cup than the C they normally would be? And yes, I have seen girls with their tops off on reality tv. Censored, yes, but especially in the Real World and shows centering around that scene with partying and such. ( A drinking party in a hot tub).

In terms of sheer square inch of nakedness(preportionate to body size) the girls on these shows outdo the boys by quite a bit.

When was the last time you saw one of the men in a thong bikini that covered almost nothing of his butt?

[Nia]

Well, some fangirls have the right idea. A lot of female anime characters I've seen are made out to be stupid and/or mean *****es that bash on all the guy characters and act like they're PMSing 24/7. It's annoying as hell. However, I do know which fangirls you're talking about--and I don't like them either. It's one thing to hate certain characters, but to hate ALL characters just because they're female? Very strange indeed. Oh, and by the way, this goes for crazy yaoi fanboys too. They seem to bash on female characters just as much as fangirls.

As an example, I keep thinking about how everyone (yaoi fans) hates Kairi from Kingdom Hearts. Why is that? She's sweet, innocent, and she doesn't really get in the way of Riku and Sora's "relationship", but she is so hated. I personally adore her, and adore the Riku/Sora pairing too. *shrug*

[DazzleKitty]

Wow...I haven't seen this thread in a while. It's nostaligic, but not in a good way....

I met a yaoi fangirl recently who hates just about any anime character with a vagina. She'd let one female character ruin an entire anime for her. I just don't understand it. >_< Yes, there are many annoying female characters, but there are lots of great ones too. The main thing I get irritated at is the overabundance of them.

[fujyoshi]

ok....well I actually don't do that because there are some female characters that I respect and stuff. If I didn't then I probably wouldn't be cosplaying. I mean sometimes I'll get annoyed but sometimes theres female characters that are awsome. An example of the awsome ones would be like Tokiko(buso renkin), Saber(fate/stay night), Ryoko(tenchi), Shana(shakugan no shana), Rinali(D Gray Man) so yeah not all the girl charcters are annoying.

[earsofdoom]

Wow...I haven't seen this thread in a while. It's nostaligic, but not in a good way....

I met a yaoi fangirl recently who hates just about any anime character with a vagina. She'd let one female character ruin an entire anime for her. I just don't understand it. >_< Yes, there are many annoying female characters, but there are lots of great ones too. The main thing I get irritated at is the overabundance of them.

Was she one of the ones who hate "Whiny and weak" female characters but loves "Emotionally Sensitive and dependent" bishounen? those type of fangirls crack me up i don't think you can find irony in a purer form. :P

....on a side note how does this topic keep comeing back?

[DazzleKitty]

Was she one of the ones who hate "Whiny and weak" female characters but loves "Emotionally Sensitive and dependent" bishounen? those type of fangirls crack me up i don't think you can find irony in a purer form. :P

....on a side note how does this topic keep comeing back?

I don't know, but this girl was seriously ferocious in her hatred of female characters. :lol: She refused to watch anything unless it had male characters only. I tried to recommend her stuff, but every anime I could come up with had at least one female character, so she couldn't watch any of them. :rolleyes:

Oh, and I think this is a cursed topic!

[fujyoshi]

That sounds really funny. Knowing that nowadays the moe upraising in anime is gonna go more towards guys then saying that your not gonna watch anything unless it has all guys in it. That's literally cutting it real short.

[thelostyears]

Yaoi fangirls that have an extreme hatred for anime girls are rare. They hardly exist in real life. I know plenty of yaoi fangirls and most of them watch the likes of SailorMoon, Ranma1/2, CCS, etc where girls are dominant.

[earsofdoom]

Oh, and I think this is a cursed topic!

Indeed it is, this one seems to get all sorts of flamers, peaple who basically say "fangirls" are good and try to go on rants against "fanboys", (they kinda fit in with the flamers... but its more flamebaiting then flaming) and peaple who seem to think there fandom is pure as snow and get pissy about even the slightest mention of a rabid fangirl. (its a fact every fandom is gonna have bad apples, some just have more or have worse then others) it wouldn't surprise me if most of the peaple who posted in this topic have been reported multiple times. In any case im finished with this topic and have been ever since the 14 page flamebait that lead to its resurrection a long time ago, though ill still report any future flamers.

[thelostyears]

it wouldn't surprise me if most of the peaple who posted in this topic have been reported multiple times. In any case im finished with this topic and have been ever since the 14 page flamebait that lead to its resurrection a long time ago, though ill still report any future flamers.

It wouldn't suprise me if most of the people who have been reported in this topic had been reported by the same person.

Personally I don't think a discussion on this was necessary considering the fact that there's bad apples in every tree. With flamebaits coming from both sides is something that the topic starter probably anticipated because of the sensitive title and the sensitive topic. It's inevitable that the war will continue as long as someone has something to say because anything someone has to say becomes something negative to the person who disagrees with her/him. I didn't think it was necessary to resurrect this thread. Let this thread die already, PLZ.

Therefore, I repeat: There's bad apples in every tree. So get over it.

[Bernard_Monsha]

Thread necromancy is bad.