BBC on Yaoi and Manga

[Shoujo_ai]

Saw this on AOD about a report on manga done by the BBC.
There's some interesting thoughts on yaoi.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/worldtoday/

the article is called Manga Appeal

[hiei_kurama27]

wow.....:|

[bukimi]

Where's the article?? :|

I heard a BBC radio thing tonight though that had something on yaoi in it, though.

[Shoujo_ai]

Originally posted by bukimi
Where's the article?? :|

I heard a BBC radio thing tonight though that had something on yaoi in it, though.

the link is in this thread :P

but here's what someone else posted regarding the interview:
Did anyone hear the story on manga on the BBC Worldservice today? I thought it was pretty good. They talked about how prevalent it was, and the variety of material. Focused a bit on pornography, but much of that was a discussion of yaoi, in which they pointed out it was mostly read by women. I was particularly intrigued by the woman who claimed the men in yaoi manga were not gay, that when they had sex it was an expression of how deeply they cared for each other. (So, what, gay men aren't expressing how deeply they care for each other?) Then she went on to suggest reading yaoi is a way to avoid thinking about your own sexuality. I kind of think she's crazy, but I kind of think she's also offering up a really interesting persepective.

[meron_dori-ma]

I don't know about guys in Yaoi not being gay, but the lady's second point might not be all that crazy. >_<

((After actaully reading the article)) Oh, I get it! She's saying that Yaoi isn't about the guys being gay. And about the yaoi speciallist saying people read yaoi to avoid their own sexuality, I agree. The last thing I want to read about is a straight couple having sex.

[Defiled one]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3550613.stm


why do i have to do the work?...here girls...come and get it..

[Leader Desslock]

Did anyone else laugh at the following passage of the article:

"Yaoi is all about two men, in love, having sex, and a lot of girls are desperately wanting a love relationship. But those two men are not attracted because they are gay - that's the key point. They are attracted because they are in love with each other."

Um.... right... The point is that these two men having sex are just in love - but they're not gay. Yeah. That's the point. :lol:

[meron_dori-ma]

I don't think she's saying that they're not gay, just that the stories aren't about being gay, but about love, etc. See the difference? Of course, I could be wrong.

[Magami No ER]

^I agree with the amjority of yaoi that's the case(tehy're usually made with women in mind), others (in rarer cases from what I find) are about the lifestyle(of course, being more then yaoi, but BL). Definatly the case for gay manga/comics/whateveruwanit2be made here. I think a good example of the former are clamp manga with extreme...er, elements<Lawful Drug>, though they don't write true yaoi.
All depends on the the author's intent. I personally like both. =P

[Thedarksenshi]

I don't think she's saying that they're not gay, just that the stories aren't about being gay, but about love, etc. See the difference? Of course, I could be wrong.

Interesting thought. Maybe that's why anime/manga concentrates on love, not sexuality.

[Magami No ER]

Well, maybe not orientation to be exact.

[meron_dori-ma]

Personally, I don't like half-assed Yaoi. It's just such a tease...That's the only reason I havn't read Legal-Drug (not that I consider that Yaoi anyway).

[earsofdoom]

Not to long ago MTV did some stuff on the whole Yaoi thing, Im begining to wonder why it is this is all you ever here about when it come's to anime/manga in the west. I just wish ppl would recognize stuff beside's bishie's.

"Yaoi is all about two men, in love, having sex, and a lot of girls are desperately wanting a love relationship. But those two men are not attracted because they are gay - that's the key point. They are attracted because they are in love with each other."

I can't help but laugh... if it was a hetero couple with twice the "love" half those ppl would have absolutely no interest at all. I don't care if those ppl like Yaoi but don't lie and say "I have no interest in it becouse it's Yaoi, its just purely for the romance". What did they mean by women "denying there sexuality?".

[meron_dori-ma]

Can you blame people for talking about it?? We're talking about a taboo that has slowly become an accepted part of society (and still has a ways to go!) It's an exciting thing, changes in society. So relax.

[QUOTE=earsofdoom]"What did they mean by women 'denying their sexuality'"? [QUOTE]

They mean that we don't want to think about it. I think that's true for a lot of women. (Guys, don't try to understand).

[earsofdoom]

Can you blame people for talking about it?? We're talking about a taboo that has slowly become an accepted part of society (and still has a ways to go!) It's an exciting thing, changes in society. So relax.


No offense but I don't think many ppl watch it for that reason, why can't ppl just admit it's a form of intertainment and not some self rightous movement to help gay men be accepted everywhere, helping society, etc. sure it's nice to think that way but it's just not true... and not a valid reason for being the only genre being recognized in the west. when are we ever going to see show's like grave of fireflie's advertised? probably never. I'd would just be nice to talk to someone about anime and them not think im talking about yaoi.

[Chousho]

the link is in this thread :P
The link to BBC is in thread, not the article...?
...
men in yaoi manga were not gay, that when they had sex it was an expression of how deeply they cared for each other.
...[/i]
Hahaha, uhhh
uhhh
No matter how much I care for someone, I am not ... yeah... just yeah.

I mean, I love my family, but ... is that promoting incest or...

*cleans self*

[meron_dori-ma]

No offense but I don't think many ppl watch it for that reason, why can't ppl just admit it's a form of intertainment and not some self rightous movement to help gay men be accepted everywhere, helping society, etc. sure it's nice to think that way but it's just not true... and not a valid reason for being the only genre being recognized in the west. when are we ever going to see show's like grave of fireflie's advertised? probably never. I'd would just be nice to talk to someone about anime and them not think im talking about yaoi.

I would say "that's their problem, not yours", but I don't think it's even a problem. :uhh: Sorry, can't help ya there, bud.

[Animematt55]

No offense but I don't think many ppl watch it for that reason, why can't ppl just admit it's a form of intertainment and not some self rightous movement to help gay men be accepted everywhere, helping society, etc. sure it's nice to think that way but it's just not true... and not a valid reason for being the only genre being recognized in the west. when are we ever going to see show's like grave of fireflie's advertised? probably never. I'd would just be nice to talk to someone about anime and them not think im talking about yaoi.
I agree....It is just entertainment, thats all. It is a genre that ranges from subtle things (liek Legal Drug) to full on porn. It is nothing special. Why is Yaoi getting so much attention? There is Yuri which is about relationships between two females...
It does seem that a lot of girls just read Yaoi cause they think it is all about "love" and being some kind of sexual movement.
anyways, there really isnt anything THAT special about it.

[Shiroxx]

I'm glad that yaoi is getting some free promotion. It deserves it.

[Dinco]

The media is moronic when it comes to examining non-mainstream phenomena. Just be glad they haven't invented a new term like homo-japanimation to describe it.

[Chousho]

I'm glad that yaoi is getting some free promotion. It deserves it.
Yes, because as we all know, there aren't enough fan girls out there who like to see two guys getting their bow-chika-bow-wow on.


...

[Animematt55]

Yes, because as we all know, there aren't enough fan girls out there who like to see two guys getting their bow-chika-bow-wow on.


...
I second this...it is starting to flood the market. Like i said..it is nothing special....there have been boyXboy stories out there forever

[DazzleKitty]

I second this...it is starting to flood the market. Like i said..it is nothing special....there have been boyXboy stories out there forever

Really? Where? Because about 6 or 7 years ago when I first got into yaoi, there was NOTHING on it. Only in recent years has it been getting more popular here in the States.

Of course there is nothing special about it to you. You're a guy and you favor yuri more. Actually, I think the guys who post here in this thread really shouldn't be complaining (please note I am not trying to pick on you, just point something out). Men have had all kinds of sexual media targeted to them for years, and the amount of it for women pails in comparison. We are finally getting some targeted to us. Why are you complaining about it? Is it because you are just angry that there aren't many yuri manga being licensed, and you blame it on yaoi and the fangirls? I mean, I do feel for you guys because it does suck and I would hate it too if I was a huge yuri fan.
A lot of girls do read yaoi for the love, the smut, and the amount of pretty boys. You guys act like it's a bad thing. Yes, there is love in hetero and yuri couples, but most fangirls are going to want to read about two cute guys because that's what we like. We aren't discriminating against other types of couples just because of that. I am not sure if that is what you guys meant, but it kinda seemed that way.
Meh, that's just my say on the whole matter. :unsure:

What did the article mean about women denying their sexuality? That makes no sense at all.

[Chousho]

Really? Where? Because about 6 or 7 years ago when I first got into yaoi, there was NOTHING on it. Only in recent years has it been getting more popular here in the States.
Six or seven years ago anime was still a small niche market with DBZ, Sailor Moon and the occasional Gundam.
Come 2006 and wooha!

While I know you weren't referring to me after this quote, I'll let you know I'm not a fan of yuri either.

[Defiled one]

What did they mean by women "denying there sexuality?".

simple "sarcasm"...men watch yuri....men wants to be a woman...that likes woman....girls same thing....

Wrong......


its complicated...its really hard to explain but i will be very simple....woman like the preliminaries....thats it, i cant really explain that to you... ^_^ maybe one day

[meron_dori-ma]

Really? Where? Because about 6 or 7 years ago when I first got into yaoi, there was NOTHING on it. Only in recent years has it been getting more popular here in the States.

Of course there is nothing special about it to you. You're a guy and you favor yuri more. Actually, I think the guys who post here in this thread really shouldn't be complaining (please note I am not trying to pick on you, just point something out). Men have had all kinds of sexual media targeted to them for years, and the amount of it for women pails in comparison. We are finally getting some targeted to us. Why are you complaining about it? Is it because you are just angry that there aren't many yuri manga being licensed, and you blame it on yaoi and the fangirls? I mean, I do feel for you guys because it does suck and I would hate it too if I was a huge yuri fan.
A lot of girls do read yaoi for the love, the smut, and the amount of pretty boys. You guys act like it's a bad thing. Yes, there is love in hetero and yuri couples, but most fangirls are going to want to read about two cute guys because that's what we like. We aren't discriminating against other types of couples just because of that. I am not sure if that is what you guys meant, but it kinda seemed that way.
Meh, that's just my say on the whole matter. :unsure:

What did the article mean about women denying their sexuality? That makes no sense at all.

I agree! :P You guys are jealous!! And stop your whining, while you're at it!

(By the way, I'm a female fan of both Yaoi and Yuri)

[meron_dori-ma]

simple "sarcasm"...men watch yuri....men wants to be a woman...that likes woman....girls same thing....

Wrong......


its complicated...its really hard to explain but i will be very simple....woman like the preliminaries....thats it, i cant really explain that to you... ^_^ maybe one day

I totally don't get what you mean. :blink: My take on that statement was that a lot of women don't want to think about they're sexuality. So reading Yaoi is their romance fix. It's my romance fix! That's definately not the only reason, though. There're all the bishies and stuff. ^_^

Everyone keeps asking the same question! Read over some earlier posts, so I don't have to explain it again! ((--in a very BLUNT mood))

[typhonblue]

Women have to think about being sexual objects (if they are reasonably attractive and youthful) almost constantly. Women have to think about *other* women as sexual objects constantly throughout their lives.

Yaoi is a break from that. Thank god. (You guys really can't understand how absolutely tedious it is. I'm tired of boobies, I'm tired of lesbian chic, I'm tired of continually being exposed to *women*. Women's bodies, women's issues, women's emotions. It's exhausting.)

And, yes, it *will* do positive things for homophobia in the west. And that will, in turn, help out *all* men to improve their value in western society by, hopefully, repairing the damage that's been done to men's friendships in the last 150 years.

So yeah. I like Yaoi. I think everyone else who likes Yaoi is doing something very good for the future and I'll be damned if I'm going to hide it.

[typhonblue]

Six or seven years ago anime was still a small niche market with DBZ, Sailor Moon and the occasional Gundam.
Come 2006 and wooha!

While I know you weren't referring to me after this quote, I'll let you know I'm not a fan of yuri either.


Er... far be it from me to question your intentions. But... why are you on the Yaoi/Yuri forum if you hate Yaoi and Yuri?

I mean I hate golf. I *really* hate golf. But I'd rather eat my own hat backwards then spend time on a golf forum.

[meron_dori-ma]

Good point.

[same_animefan]

No offense but I don't think many ppl watch it for that reason, why can't ppl just admit it's a form of intertainment and not some self rightous movement to help gay men be accepted everywhere, helping society, etc. sure it's nice to think that way but it's just not true... and not a valid reason for being the only genre being recognized in the west. when are we ever going to see show's like grave of fireflie's advertised? probably never. I'd would just be nice to talk to someone about anime and them not think im talking about yaoi.

I agree. It's entertainment. Nothing more. They're stories, they're fictional. What's it matter? *shrugs* I think homosexual relationships just aren't AS taboo as they were before, which promoted the release of things like Yaoi in the states. Just my Two cents.

Eh, dunno where you live, but here, there is no advertising for anime whatsoever. Yaoi/Yuri/Het/Myst/Sci-fi/Action. Nothing. Unless you're reading an anime magazine. Even then, it's still normal stuff with the occational touch on yuri/yaoi/hentai. Depends on what you're reading. But ad's anywhere else? No. None.

Um...who...*tilts head* who have you talked to that thought you were talking about Yaoi when you were just talking about anime? 0-0 I've never run into anyone who even knows what Yaoi is unless they really like anime in general. That's...I don't get it 0-0. I mean, I have an "I love Yaoi" bag, and unless people already know what it is, they don't think twice about it. Don't even know it's anime, really. So, I just don't get where your coming from o-o.

[earsofdoom]

I agree! :P You guys are jealous!! And stop your whining, while you're at it!


So my simply wanting other genre's of Anime/manga to be recognized is jealousy? I'm not sure if you were joking but I feel like i was just insulted.


And, yes, it *will* do positive things for homophobia in the west. And that will, in turn, help out *all* men to improve their value in western society by, hopefully, repairing the damage that's been done to men's friendships in the last 150 years.


You're jokeing right? it's just a form of intertainment.. removeing all the obstacle's in a relationship and makeing the men really girly doesn't help recognition at all. The whole "it help's mankind" idea is why so many fans of it are out of control and smacking ppl with Yaoi paddle's. everything is harmless if it's taken for what it is, but when you start a whole self rightous outlook on thing's then it become's a problem and ppl start pushing there ideal's on other peaple becouse of it. Something that actually does help gay men is Bara (yaoi manga aimed at men) it won't help them in real life, or with sociaty, or with there relationship, it just give's them "Entertainment" that involve's there lifestyle and is aimed at them.

In short ppl should just enjoy it for what it is and not go on a crusade with it.

[Animematt55]

So my simply wanting other genre's of Anime/manga to be recognized is jealousy? I'm not sure if you were joking but I feel like i was just insulted.



You're jokeing right? it's just a form of intertainment.. removeing all the obstacle's in a relationship and makeing the men really girly doesn't help recognition at all. The whole "it help's mankind" idea is why so many fans of it are out of control and smacking ppl with Yaoi paddle's. everything is harmless if it's taken for what it is, but when you start a whole self rightous outlook on thing's then it become's a problem and ppl start pushing there ideal's on other peaple becouse of it. Something that actually does help gay men is Bara (yaoi manga aimed at men) it won't help them in real life, or with sociaty, or with there relationship, it just give's them "Entertainment" that involve's there lifestyle and is aimed at them.

In short ppl should just enjoy it for what it is and not go on a crusade with it.

:cheers: i'll drink to that!
These girls have to stop acting like Yaoi is the best thing in the US. I wasn't whining about anything, i was simply statign the truth.
ANd yes it is true wwhat CHouso said...it is just comign in with the other anime. The companies see how crazy you girls act over it and think $$$$ profit from the simple people.
Earsofdoom is also right. Yaoi aimed at girl's will do nothign for real gay men except get them stalked by fangirls....

I mean, we have lesbians gettign attacked at Cons now cause of this whole yaoi fad.

[April-san]

Actually, I think this is very similar to a previous topic. Can't remember right now.

For me, Yaoi is a great fantasy escape. Watching two gorgeous men create a romantic bond, dispite social stigma, and be able to physically express their love makes me melt inside. An "Aww" moment.

Watching gay porn or reading stories aimed a m/m audience, it's not the same. First, 95% of the romance is gone. *Poof* Then, the stories turn physical before any kind of releationship is formed. But, then again, I have a neighbor and a few friends which are gay, which makes it a little too real for me.

Even the Hard Yaoi titles like Sensitive Pornograph, Enzai, and Level-C have some level of romance and/or happy endings.

Besides escapism, Yaoi has opend my mind and has made me very tolerant of different people's views. I came from a very strict "gays are evil" household. But, now I've joined a few rights protests and I am very much against my state's constitutional amendment that 'marriage' is defined between a man and a woman. I don't really care what my neighbor is doing behind closed doors with his partner (and I really don't WANT to know...my fantasy bishies are more than enough). If their love is strong, and they make a commitment to each other, I don't see what the big deal is! Let them make things legal! Let them adopt! A loving household is the best thing in the world, if you have two mothers, two fathers, or one of each. And the religious right only wants to populate the world even more! Boy, this world is screwed up. I can't wait until the next generation comes to power in the government.

I'm sorry I'm ranting. I've just been sitting here for a few minutes and I've seen about 20 political ads. I can't wait for November to be over! (presidental ads next year...*groan*)

And, boy, this thread is old. ^_^

[Shiroxx]

So my simply wanting other genre's of Anime/manga to be recognized is jealousy? I'm not sure if you were joking but I feel like i was just insulted.


To me, you weren't being jealous. But you were indeed whining about it. You were whining about the fact that yaoi is being advertised freely while the others such as "Grave of the FireFlies" aren't. Stop being so closed minded and accept the fact that yaoi is having the spotlight.


Yes, because as we all know, there aren't enough fan girls out there who like to see two guys getting their bow-chika-bow-wow on.


...

Is it a bad thing that people are promoting yaoi to get more fans? This is a form of entertainment. It should be known and acknowledged, just like Naruto and Anime.

I second this...it is starting to flood the market. Like i said..it is nothing special....there have been boyXboy stories out there forever

It's nothing special for you. But it's something special for the potential customers who might be interested in yaoi after reading the article.

[earsofdoom]

Um...who...*tilts head* who have you talked to that thought you were talking about Yaoi when you were just talking about anime? 0-0 I've never run into anyone who even knows what Yaoi is unless they really like anime in general. That's...I don't get it 0-0. I mean, I have an "I love Yaoi" bag, and unless people already know what it is, they don't think twice about it. Don't even know it's anime, really. So, I just don't get where your coming from o-o.

Ever since MTV did that Yaoi thing everyone where im at think's the only anime available is Yaoi.... i don't know what's scarier that or the fact that ppl still watch MTV

To me, you weren't being jealous. But you were indeed whining about it. You were whining about the fact that yaoi is being advertised freely while the others such as "Grave of the FireFlies" aren't. Stop being so closed minded and accept the fact that yaoi is having the spotlight.


lol closed-minded and whineing? I knew it was only a matter of time until someone used the "OMG close-minded homophobe" card. Yaoi doesn't have the spotlight in the west.... it own's it and THATS what's bothering me.

[Shiroxx]

Ever since MTV did that Yaoi thing everyone where im at think's the only anime available is Yaoi.... i don't know what's scarier that or the fact that ppl still watch MTV.

Well, the majority of the people don't think that yaoi constitues 100% of the animation industry. The people that think "the only anime available is yaoi" are all probably ignorant about Japanese Anime in general. Why bother? The fact is, if they are anime fans, they would know that YAOI is merely a genre of Anime.


lol closed-minded and whineing? I knew it was only a matter of time until someone used the "OMG close-minded homophobe" card. Yaoi doesn't have the spotlight in the west.... it own's it and THATS what's bothering me.

No. I wasn't calling you a homophobe or implied you were one. And how is YAOI owning the west? Please elaborate. I would love to hear that because i would so love it to be true, but it's not.

[Animematt55]

Ok Shiroxx...why do you think Yaoi is so great? There have been maleXmale stories around for years....what makes these so special? What makes it better than, what you call, 'het' romance? or yuri?

[Shiroxx]

Ok Shiroxx...why do you think Yaoi is so great? There have been maleXmale stories around for years....what makes these so special? What makes it better than, what you call, 'het' romance? or yuri?


Yeah sure, there have been gay stories for years, but what does that have to do with people's interest in yaoi? Gay novels and yaoi are two different things. The only similarity is that all of those entertainment focus on homosexuality.

Yaoi is different than gay novels, short stories. It is gay-themed comic strips. It is drawn. Not typed.

And i have never put YAOI on top of any of the other genres. I have never claimed that it's better than het romance. I'm a heterosexual female. I'm interested in reading gay romance, lesbian romance, AND straight romance.
The fact is, YAOI has only recently started to gain in popularity worldwide. And it's getting more people to buy it and it's a good thing for the fans because, more consumers = more production out.

[Animematt55]

Yeah sure, there have been gay stories for years, but what does that have to do with people's interest in yaoi? Gay novels and yaoi are two different things. The only similarity is that all of those entertainment focus on homosexuality.

Yaoi is different than gay novels, short stories. It is gay-themed comic strips. It is drawn. Not typed.

And i have never put YAOI on top of any of the other genres. I have never claimed that it's better than het romance. I'm a heterosexual female. I'm interested in reading gay romance, lesbian romance, AND straight romance.
The fact is, YAOI has only recently started to gain in popularity worldwide. And it's getting more people to buy it and it's a good thing for the fans because, more consumers = more production out.
yet I doubt you have read any yuri at all. Gay novels and Yaoi are different? Just cause Yaoi is drawn? There have been gay comic strips for a long time....i guess you just never tried finding them until the godly country of Japan released it.

[earsofdoom]

Well, the majority of the people don't think that yaoi constitues 100% of the animation industry. The people that think "the only anime available is yaoi" are all probably ignorant about Japanese Anime in general. Why bother? The fact is, if they are anime fans, they would know that YAOI is merely a genre of Anime.

Of course any anime fan know's there's more to anime then Yaoi, i was talking about the none anime fan's who won't ever try anime becouse of they think the only anime/manga available is Yaoi. same as i didn't get into anime for the longest time becouse of the "cartoon porn rep" since that's all you used to hear about back then.





No. I wasn't calling you a homophobe or implied you were one. And how is YAOI owning the west? Please elaborate. I would love to hear that because i would so love it to be true, but it's not.

MTV and many other "hip" place's have shown that girl's love Yaoi, and so far no other genre has even been mentioned. I can't buy manga becouse the majority at the store's is Yaoi or inuyasha the only option i have is the berzerk manga and there is no way in hell im reading that. (heard there are "demon orgy's" in it)

I've already given my 2-cent's in short: Yaoi is harmless it's when ppl think Yaoi is a "magical" thing that help's ppl and cure's the injustice's of our world so they go on a crusade, that it get's out of hand and other ppl are affected by it. a side-affect of all this is that it's the only genre with any "real" popularity over here and more and more importer's are importing it as apposed to other title's. think of it however you like.

[Animematt55]

Of course any anime fan know's there's more to anime then Yaoi, i was talking about the none anime fan's who won't ever try anime becouse of they think the only anime/manga available is Yaoi. same as i didn't get into anime for the longest time becouse of the "cartoon porn rep" since that's all you used to here about back then.






MTV and many other "hip" place's have shown that girl's love Yaoi, and so far no other genre has even been mentioned. I can't buy manga becouse the majority at the store's is Yaoi or inuyasha the only option i have is the berzerk manga and there is no way in hell im reading that. (heard there are "demon orgy's" in it)

I've already given my 2-cent's in short: Yaoi is harmless it's when ppl think Yaoi is a "magical" thing that help's ppl and cure's the injustice's of our world so they go on a crusade, that it get's out of hand and other ppl are affected by it. a side-affect of all this is that it's the only genre with any "real" popularity over here and more and more importer's are importing it as apposed to other title's. think of it however you like.
Another drink for Earsofdoom! :trashed: your a lot more articulate than i am thats fore sure,

[Shiroxx]

yet I doubt you have read any yuri at all. Gay novels and Yaoi are different? Just cause Yaoi is drawn? There have been gay comic strips for a long time....i guess you just never tried finding them until the godly country of Japan released it.

*laughs* Actually, i have. I'm a huge fan of the manga and anime of Strawberry Panic. Before that, i enjoyed Maria-sama ga Miteru alot. Just because i'm a straight female doesn't mean i don't read Yuri. Actually, in Japan, more than half of the Yuri fans are female. And many Yuri titles were made for female.

Gay comic strips have been drawn in the west for a long time but have it ever reached as many people as YAOI? Give me a title that has had spanned over 10 volumes and i'll search it on Amazon. Despite that, it's still not the same as YAOI. They're different. I'm not sure why you are so pissed about the fact that yaoi is being promoted. If you don't like the genre, then just shrug your shoulders and move on. The world doesn't just revolve around your interests. There are people who will be happy to see YAOI being talked on TV. If your favorite genre isn't promoted on TV, fine, too bad, but don't go and rant it on the genre that is being talked about.

[Animematt55]

then what make Yaoi so special? It is just glorified pretty boys, thats all that is so 'special' about it. In fact, i see it causing more harm than good. Fangirls get the wrong idea. They think being a gay male is all pretty lovey stuff, and everything is all nice looking.
Then they get obsessed with gay males, even wanting to become one cause they think it will be like a manga. They stalk gay males everywhere, or harass cosplayers at cons, and even attack lesbians or yuri fans. Like someone stated...go with Bara instead...

[Shiroxx]

then what make Yaoi so special? It is just glorified pretty boys, thats all that is so 'special' about it. In fact, i see it causing more harm than good. Fangirls get the wrong idea. They think being a gay male is all pretty lovey stuff, and everything is all nice looking.
Then they get obsessed with gay males, even wanting to become one cause they think it will be like a manga. They stalk gay males everywhere, or harass cosplayers at cons, and even attack lesbians or yuri fans. Like someone stated...go with Bara instead...

You obviously haven't read any yaoi or shounen ai, for that matter. You seem ignorant about it all. Yaoi is not just about pretty boys. It's about the love between two men. They don't just go and have sex with each other and get the girls all distracted and heated. There are stories, just like heterosexual love. There are kisses, just like het love. Yaoi is not just about hot men in love, it's more than that.

The fangirls that you speak of are probably just hardcore fans and they take it too seriously. But i can assure that the majority of us don't stalk gay men, harass cosplayers at cons, attack lesbians or yuri fans. Just because one or two girls did that, doesn't mean the rest are like that. You're stereotyping.

[earsofdoom]

...go with Bara instead...

well there kinda one problem with that... it is aimed at gay men so im not intirely sure that a girl would get much out of it (you never know but still)

[Animematt55]

You obviously haven't read any yaoi or shounen ai, for that matter. You seem ignorant about it all. Yaoi is not just about pretty boys. It's about the love between two mean. They don't just go and have sex with each other and get the girls all distracted and heated. There are stories, just like heterosexual love. There are kisses, just like het love. Yaoi is not just about hot men in love, it's more than that.
.
But...the comics and novels written in the west arent? Like you said...they are just stories....yet you seem to say it is superior to maleXmale stories from other countries

[Shiroxx]

But...the comics and novels written in the west arent? Like you said...they are just stories....yet you seem to say it is superior to maleXmale stories from other countries

Did i ever say that comics and novels written in the west aren't? NO. Did i ever say yaoi is superior to gay stories from other countries? NO .

You need to stop misinterpreting my statements. I told you that there are more to yaoi because you claimed that YAOI is just about pretty boys.

[Animematt55]

*laughs* Actually, i have. I'm a huge fan of the manga and anime of Strawberry Panic. Before that, i enjoyed Maria-sama ga Miteru alot. Just because i'm a straight female doesn't mean i don't read Yuri. Actually, in Japan, more than half of the Yuri fans are female. And many Yuri titles were made for female.

Gay comic strips have been drawn in the west for a long time but have it ever reached as many people as YAOI? Give me a title that has had spanned over 10 volumes and i'll search it on Amazon. Despite that, it's still not the same as YAOI. They're different. I'm not sure why you are so pissed about the fact that yaoi is being promoted. If you don't like the genre, then just shrug your shoulders and move on. The world doesn't just revolve around your interests. There are people who will be happy to see YAOI being talked on TV. If your favorite genre isn't promoted on TV, fine, too bad, but don't go and rant it on the genre that is being talked about.
*filler with sarcastic comment*

[Shiroxx]

^ I said that they're different. Never said they are different in terms of what i wrote. You need to read twice and clearly of a statement before you start making a fool out of yourself.

[Animematt55]

Ok...how is it so special then?

[Shiroxx]

^ I have never said it's special. I like yaoi because it's YAOI. It doesn't have to be special to be liked.

[Animematt55]

^ I have never said it's special. I like yaoi because it's YAOI. It doesn't have to be special to be liked.
OMG ITS DA YAOI!! not a very good reason... You do realize Yaoi are simply comic books with maleXmale relationships, right? It is just like everything else.

[Shiroxx]

OMG ITS DA YAOI!! not a very good reason... You do realize Yaoi are simply comic books with maleXmale relationships, right? It is just like everything else.

*laughs* Of course i acknowledged the fact that it's just comic books with malexmale relationships. I just don't understand why you are pissed that yaoi is becoming popular. When something is popular, it's popular. There's no reason for it.

[Animematt55]

my mind ia boggled at the mindless devotion and special treatment it gets....
if i was pissed you would know it.

[earsofdoom]

Ok...how is it so special then?

It's not that it's special.... it just has access to far more ppl. it's pretty evident that Bara and Gay comix (that's seriously what that called it... not very original are they lol) being aimed at gay men won't be as populor as Yaoi simply becouse there are far more heterosexual woman then homosexual men... plus in the case of gay comix not many ppl read comic's anymore. In theory a yaoi artist could make a serie's aimed at both gay men AND straight women (It's a risk but if they could get that niche market there would be allot of extra money to be made)..... not sure what you call this but i know it's been done with some yuri manga "shoujen" LOL you pretty much have to aim at as wide an audiance as possible when you want to market it at a Niche audiance if you want to make money.

[Animematt55]

It's not that it's special.... it just has access to far more ppl. it's pretty evident that Bara and Gay comix (that's seriously what that called it... not very original are they lol) being aimed at gay men won't be as populor as Yaoi simply becouse there are far more heterosexual woman then homosexual men... plus in the case of gay comix not many ppl read comic's anymore. In theory a yaoi artist could make a serie's aimed at both gay men AND straight women (It's a risk but if they could get that niche market there would be allot of extra money to be made)..... not sure what you call this but i know it's been done with some yuri manga "shoujen" LOL you pretty much have to aim at as wide an audiance as possible when you want to market it at a Niche audiance if you want to make money.
Thats basic marketing....i learned it in High School.

I think Yaoi is mainly popular here in the west cause the female anime fans seem to be easily influenced. They see anime as a god send. They are all obsessed with bishonen, and when they saw they could get two of them in bed together.....well, we have this.

[Shiroxx]

^ While you're at it, why don't you go ahead and apply it to the men who are obsessed with hentai and real life porn.

[Animematt55]

^ While you're at it, why don't you go ahead and apply it to the men who are obsessed with hentai and real life porn.
ok....*applies it to hentai and real life porn*
Yeah there are guys that buy porn with *insert porn star here* in it, and there are guys that buy hentai too. But this is about Yaoi.

[Shiroxx]

Congratulations, you have just entered the ultimate irony. Who was the one who brought in the discussion about gay western stories here in the first place?

[Animematt55]

Congratulations, you have just entered the ultimate irony. Who was the one who brought in the discussion about gay western stories here in the first place?
I am not following you.....

[earsofdoom]

I am not following you.....

That's becouse that insult was directed at me, when i posted about bara and gay comix. though im not sure what "Irony" she mean's. In any case i won't be flame baited into an arguement. I've already said my 2-cent's im just answering question's now.

[typhonblue]

You're jokeing right? it's just a form of intertainment.. removeing all the obstacle's in a relationship and makeing the men really girly doesn't help recognition at all.

1. I *hate* yaoi with girly men. Yet I am a yaoi fan. How is this possible? Because not *every* yaoi stars girly boys.

And, yes, yaoi is entertainment. But we are shaped by our entertainment just as much as anything else we do.

The whole "it help's mankind" idea is why so many fans of it are out of control and smacking ppl with Yaoi paddle's. everything is harmless if it's taken for what it is, but when you start a whole self rightous outlook on thing's then it become's a problem and ppl start pushing there ideal's on other peaple becouse of it.

How are they "pushing there ideal's[sic]" on you? Does it involve a gun or handcuffs, a water pistol and electric eels?

BTW, just an odd aside... Yaoi-con has banned yaoi paddles from the convention.

Something that actually does help gay men is Bara (yaoi manga aimed at men) it won't help them in real life, or with sociaty, or with there relationship, it just give's them "Entertainment" that involve's there lifestyle and is aimed at them.

In short ppl should just enjoy it for what it is and not go on a crusade with it.

They should go on a crusade with it. Show it to as many people as they can, share it with everyone.

The more women get exposed to aspects of homosexuality that have been engineered to appeal to them, the fewer children are raised in families with homophobic mothers.

[Shiroxx]

That's becouse that insult was directed at me, when i posted about bara and gay comix. though im not sure what "Irony" she mean's. In any case i won't be flame baited into an arguement. I've already said my 2-cent's im just answering question's now.

How is that an insult?

[Lockheart]

*sighs*

As a note: Yaoi (shall we call it BL instead?) does not make up of those girly men. Those girly men, I avoid. My favorite works tends to run along the lines of

1. this (http://haru.goodbye-stranger.net/index.jpg)
2.this (http://files.photojerk.com/chopsticks/koigavol2/koigav02p148.jpg)
3. this (http://blumanga.com/images/series_cover_11.jpg)
and
4. this (http://blumanga.com/images/series_cover_lovepistols_2.jpg)

Which I'd like some of you to still proclaim these men as girly, with a straight face. :w00t:

I'm not a self-proclaimed devoter of yaoi, but I do like it very much. I tend to have decent (read: not squeal) conversations with my friend's mom about her favorite works of yaoi. We do not squeal or hit random passersby with yaoi paddles, we say what we like, or don't like, about our favorite works... while my friend stays as far away as possible. :P

If you need some works to perhaps understand the appeal in the works (Matt is beyond help), then I could give you some titles that will change ur perception of the whole girly men, uke/seme thing.

Yaoi is entertainment made by women, for women, though it is known to have devoted male fans as well. It's a shame the idiotic fangirls give the general fans of Yaoi such a bad name.

if i was pissed you would know it.

It's so obvious you're frothing with rage. :dance:

[Animematt55]

*sighs*

A

Which I'd like some of you to still proclaim these men as girly, with a straight face. :w00t:

excuse me? I am jsut sayign there isnt anythign special or unique about Yaoi (or BL)

[Lockheart]

excuse me? I am jsut sayign there isnt anythign special or unique about Yaoi (or BL)

I'm looking at earsofdoom, actually. :D I gave up on you when you went on more loops than the BSOD of my computer the last time I chatted with you about, what else, yaoi. ^_^

[earsofdoom]

*sighs*

As a note: Yaoi (shall we call it BL instead?) does not make up of those girly men. Those girly men, I avoid. My favorite works tends to run along the lines of

1. this (http://haru.goodbye-stranger.net/index.jpg)
2.this (http://files.photojerk.com/chopsticks/koigavol2/koigav02p148.jpg)
3. this (http://blumanga.com/images/series_cover_11.jpg)
and
4. this (http://blumanga.com/images/series_cover_lovepistols_2.jpg)

Which I'd like some of you to still proclaim these men as girly, with a straight face. :w00t:


I'm surprised, I've never even heard of that Yaoi before (or any other one with masculine men) It's nice to know not all Yaoi artist are doing the bishie thing... though they do look a little feminine but that's mostly the pose's and bit's of dialogue. but that really can't be helped.


Yaoi is "entertainment" made by women, for women


Finnally someone who's not makeing it out for something it's not.

[Shiroxx]

^ What yaoi have you heard of? It seems like all of the YAOI that you've witnessed are feminine. So i would like to know the titles and the names of the characters.

[Lockheart]

I'm surprised, I've never even heard of that Yaoi before (or any other one with masculine men) It's nice to know not all Yaoi artist are doing the bishie thing... though they do look a little feminine but that's mostly the pose's and bit's of dialogue. but that really can't be helped.

:D Those bits of dialogue, if taken in context, are actually more justified than you think! :D My favorite guys there are, otherwise, strictly 100% male with healthy hormones and... not so healthy (read: destructive) line of thoughts. <_< (But I guess without it, there wouldn't be a story.) Let me know if you want a recommendation. ^_^

[earsofdoom]

^ What yaoi have you heard of? It seems like all of the YAOI that you've witnessed are feminine. So i would like to know the titles and the names of the characters.

I don't read Yaoi (that should be obvious) most of my experiance come's from loud girl's screaming at con's over something called gravitation (which i can no longer go to becouse I've developed an ear infection hence "earsofdoom"), accidently stumbling on Yaoi site's becouse they have some slash pairing for character's in a serie's i was google searching, hopeless manga shopping (i haven't been able to buy anything for a year now) with shelve's of manga depicting 2 bishie's on the cover, and reading site's writing article's on the whole yoai fad. those are so far the only Yaoi character I've glanced over and didn't mistake for a girl. not that i really care if the character's in Yaoi are bishie or not, like i said my only problem is the "crusading" and It being the only genre ppl recognize in anime. so no i can't answer the name's of any serie's or character's nor would i supply them if i could since i have the feeling some ppl on this board are looking for any Information they can find in an attempt to flame me.

[Animematt55]

I don't read Yaoi (that should be obvious) most of my experiance come's from loud girl's screaming at con's over something called gravitation (which i can no longer go to becouse I've developed an ear infection hence "earsofdoom"), accidently stumbling on Yaoi site's becouse they have some slash pairing for character's in a serie's i was google searching, hopeless manga shopping (i haven't been able to buy anything for a year now) with shelve's of manga depicting 2 bishie's on the cover, and reading site's writing article's on the whole yoai fad. those are so far the only Yaoi character I've glanced over and didn't mistake for a girl. not that i really care if the character's in Yaoi are bishie or not, like i said my only problem is the "crusading" and It being the only genre ppl recognize in anime. so no i can't answer the name's of any serie's or character's nor would i supply them if i could since i have the feeling some ppl on this board are looking for any Information they can find in an attempt to flame me.
*patpat* its ok. i understand. I havent had to deal with many of the psycho yaoi girls, but i have heard many many stories from cons.

[DazzleKitty]

I knew this thread would go to hell.

I can't quote, so I'm sorry. My browsers freeze when I do that.

"What makes yaoi so special", quoting Matt.

Well, what makes yuri so special? I bet your answer would be the same as most fangirls'.
Let's twist this around and say that yuri was getting more popular, and yaoi was still hard to get. Would you still be complaining? Would be you saying "what makes yuri so great"? I am willing to assume not, since what you want you would be getting.
How come everytime a thread on yaoi's popularity comes up, you yuri fans have to come spam it all? I think it's just bitterness of the lack of yuri. I don't think it's jealousy, but I do think you want to take out your frustrations on yaoi and its fans.
No one is forcing you to come to this topic and read about yaoi and it's popularity. Why torture yourselves? I may not be the biggest fan of yuri (I don't mind it), but I don't go to the KnM and Strawberry Panic threads and question them on why they like it and criticize them for their interests.

I find it ironic how the anti-fangirl yuri fans here always complain about annoying fangirls and how closed-minded they are, yet they are here bashing yaoi in this thread. Actually, I think it's rather hilarious.

Oh, and not all yaoi is about girly boys. FAKE, Haru wo Daiteta (sp?), Finders series, Kizuna, etc etc etc has very manly men. Heck, there is a lot of yaoi with masculine dudes (bara not counting).

Oh, and the person who mentioned that they can't buy manga anymore because it's all yaoi....that's bull. I go into bookstores all the time and MAYBE 1/5 of the selection is yaoi. The rest is mainly shoujo with some shounen. More girls read manga, more guys watch anime. So, naturally they will bring more BL and shoujo out to make money. And, I am sorry you guys don't like how yaoi is popular. You may not understand why it is, but someone is buying it or it wouldn't be being released so much.

Okay, I really don't know why you guys even need a reason for girls liking yaoi. We like hot guys, we like romance. Having a romantic realationship between two attractive guys is something appealing. I don't see why you need much more of a reason. You are looking for some deep explaination that's just not there.

[Lockheart]

How come everytime a thread on yaoi's popularity comes up, you yuri fans have to come spam it all?

No, it's just Matt. I assume my yuri-loving friends personally wouldn't give a damn about it.

Okay, I really don't know why you guys even need a reason for girls liking yaoi. We like hot guys, we like romance. Having a romantic realationship between two attractive guys is something appealing. I don't see why you need much more of a reason. You are looking for some deep explaination that's just not there.

I'm not sure if it's just wrong wording or you're speaking for all of us. :P Because for me, the 'hotness' of a guy takes a backseat to plot, when it comes to preferences for yaoi. ^_^

[earsofdoom]

Oh, and the person who mentioned that they can't buy manga anymore because it's all yaoi....that's bull. I go into bookstores all the time and MAYBE 1/5 of the selection is yaoi. The rest is mainly shoujo with some shounen. More girls read manga, more guys watch anime. So, naturally they will bring more BL and shoujo out to make money. And, I am sorry you guys don't like how yaoi is popular. You may not understand why it is, but someone is buying it or it wouldn't be being released so much.



I'd much rather not get into an arguement but i guess ill risk it to bring up a point as i feel allot of aggression aimed toward's me, I dought you and i go to the same manga shop's seeing as we live in seperate location's. that would be like if you lived in japan and i lived in the west and i said there is nothing but first person shooter's and then you said only 1/5 of the game's at your store's were shooter's.

Obviosly Yaoi fangirl's (in general) don't care that Yaoi dominate's the market since all there title's get licensed immediatly while us non-yaoi fan's have to wait upward's of 2 year's for other serie's to be licensed becouse no one will bother until all the current Yaoi is already licensed, try looking at this from both angle's rather then trying to flame bait us all the time, So far the only person who hasn't done that in this thread is lockheart (thank's by the way). and im sure if situation's were reveresed and some other genre was the only one that owned the spotlight I'd see multiple thread's here complaining about Yaoi never being recognized.

[kimbeey13]

excuse me? I am jsut sayign there isnt anythign special or unique about Yaoi (or BL)

I agree. I do not find anything overly special or unique about Yaoi. I find it not that much different than a Yuri or a regular girl/boy pairing, other than Yaoi is boy/boy. You can get a romance title with any of these pairings, and they can still be quiet similiar. As long as the plots good and there is atleast decent art, I will go for that series no matter the pairing it has.

[Animematt55]

I agree. I do not find anything overly special or unique about Yaoi. I find it not that much different than a Yuri or a regular girl/boy pairing, other than Yaoi is boy/boy. You can get a romance title with any of these pairings, and they can still be quiet similiar. As long as the plots good and there is atleast decent art, I will go for that series no matter the pairing it has.
exactly...it is the same thing, only with two boys.

and Dazzle, i never said anythign about yuri. There isnt anything special about it. It is just romance with two girls.

[DazzleKitty]

and Dazzle, i never said anythign about yuri. There isnt anything special about it. It is just romance with two girls.

At the rate you defend it so much and act like it's better than yaoi (which you have done so in many threads, please don't deny it), you act like it and the fans of it are superior.

If you feel that way, there is nothing special about any of them. Yaoi is two guys, yuri is two girls, and het is a guy and girl. The one you don't like happens to be popular, and you are annoyed by that so much. Why? If yaoi is nothing special, and neither is yuri, then just ignore it and go on with your life.

[typhonblue]

I'm guessing if yaoi wasn't as popular as it is there wouldn't be *any* yuri titles.

[Defiled one]

^Actualy Yuri "Shoujo ai" is also for the female audience...that is the purpose and main objective...Male audience have their own style of Yuri.."Hentai"...A sad fact..."Sniff"....

Yaoi is what makes you "high" and "Yuri" is the sedative. ^_^ At least there is decent Shoujo ai and shounen ai around here.

[Animematt55]

^Actualy Yuri "Shoujo ai" is also for the female audience...that is the purpose and main objective...Male audience have their own style of Yuri.."Hentai"...A sad fact..."Sniff"....

Yaoi is what makes you "high" and "Yuri" is the sedative. ^_^ At least there is decent Shoujo ai and shounen ai around here.
LoL good analogy. Never really thought about that.

[earsofdoom]

I'm guessing if yaoi wasn't as popular as it is there wouldn't be *any* yuri titles.

Yaoi doesn't help the Yuri market, though there are ppl on this forum who read both like Dazzle and Lockheart chance's are the average Yaoi fan won't find Yuri appealing just becouse they like Yaoi, though they are "two-side's of a coin" the majority of Yuri aim's at the niche audiance and doesn't have any real publisher's who would take the risk in licenseing them (they can barely break even with the cost of makeing it in japan... at least the Doujinshi circle's anyway's) it's mostly non-prophet group's like lililicous who release scanlation's (which should have a donation system setup for all the hard work they been doing) so plz direct your credit at ppl like Rosa Chinensis (the lead person of lililicous) they truely deserve it. so far there's only been one Anime release and no official manga release's. (manga's that don't have the Yuri as a comedic side-plot anyway's.)

[Animematt55]

Yaoi doesn't help the Yuri market, though there are ppl on this forum who read both like Dazzle and Lockheart chance's are the average Yaoi fan won't find Yuri appealing just becouse they like Yaoi, though they are "two-side's of a coin" the majority of Yuri aim's at the niche audiance and doesn't have any real publisher's who would take the risk in licenseing them (they can barely break even with the cost of makeing it in japan... at least the Doujinshi circle's anyway's) it's mostly non-prophet group's like lililicous who release scanlation's (which should have a donation system setup for all the hard work they been doing) so plz direct your credit at ppl like Rosa Chinensis (the lead person of lililicous) they truely deserve it. so far there's only been one Anime release and no official manga release's. (manga's that don't have the Yuri as a comedic side-plot anyway's.)
I second this. And Rosa Chinensis is an awesome girl too. If they had a donation area, i definately would donate. I am even thinking of donating to Yuricon. There is a definate lack of quality yuri out there. Especially with all the requests i hear for it.

[Shiroxx]

I don't read Yaoi (that should be obvious) most of my experiance come's from loud girl's screaming at con's over something called gravitation (which i can no longer go to becouse I've developed an ear infection hence "earsofdoom"), accidently stumbling on Yaoi site's becouse they have some slash pairing for character's in a serie's i was google searching, hopeless manga shopping (i haven't been able to buy anything for a year now).

Despite having absolutely no knowledge of yaoi/BL. Not even a bit, yet you had the guts and confidence to say this....(quote below)


You're jokeing right? it's just a form of intertainment.. removeing all the obstacle's in a relationship and makeing the men really girly doesn't help recognition at all.

[Haruhi]

Jeebus, let it die already, Shiroxx. Let him have his perception of yaoi and just get on w/your life. Your ranting here is actually doing very little to change his opinion.

Or you know, you two can continue going back and forth and I'll just lock the thread. Either way is no big deal.

[typhonblue]

Jeebus, let it die already, Shiroxx. Let him have his perception of yaoi and just get on w/your life. Your ranting here is actually doing very little to change his opinion.

Or you know, you two can continue going back and forth and I'll just lock the thread. Either way is no big deal.

Er... it was dead before you ressurected it.

And why shouldn't Shiroxx call ears out on being hypocritical? He says he does not engage with yaoi on any level yet manages to inform us with confidence on what yaoi is all about.

[Haruhi]

Er... it was dead before you ressurected it.


3 days isn't exactly what I would call "dead"


In any case, I received reports about it, so I came in to shut everything up.


And why shouldn't Shiroxx call ears out on being hypocritical? He says he does not engage with yaoi on any level yet manages to inform us with confidence on what yaoi is all about.

I personally don't give a crap what whose opinion about yaoi is. What I don't like is this annoying bickering going on between the two. Seriously, you know what yaoi is. In fact, I'm pretty sure I can agree with your stance on it. No matter what you or Shiroxx says, you're NOT going to change a damn thing about the other peoples opinion, so what's the point of getting all worked up about it? You think you're "informing" people of what yaoi is, but whatever. You're doing no such thing. You're only trying to shove your notion of it down somebody elses throats. Let things be and just chill out is what I'm saying. If things went on for two pages and they're STILL arguing, then nothing will change a hundred pages from now.

This is what gives yaoi and even anime fans in general a bad rap. You (as in, the general public) feel like you have to explain and "educate" people on what it is, despite the fact that doing so isn't really accomplishing much to begin with. If you have so much time and effort to spare on lecturing people about your idea of yaoi, then I advise you exercise all that into something more productive, such as thinking up of a story or something. NOT exchanging posts w/the next, probably ignorant, poster.

Long story short, let whoever think whatever they want to about yaoi. What skin is it off your back if they are completely wrong? None.

[typhonblue]

I think you need some context here.

Anime Matt and (to a lesser extent) Ears have thrown out a lot of negative generalizations about yaoi fangirls and yaoi.

If someone came on here and said "Everyone who likes japanese anime/manga is mentally retarded because cartoons are for kids," you bet people would put them straight. And I wouldn't blame them for doing it.

Yaoi isn't a mystery cult, it's a form of entertainment. Its fans should be allowed to clear up misconceptions about it, not be forced to take a vow of silence.

Unfortunately Matt doesn't seem to be capable of either changing his opinion or offering a decent argument as to *why* he holds it, or, even better yet, simply shutting up about it when its inappropriate and likely to irk people (for instance, on a thread devoted to yuri which *he* started, he takes a jab at yaoi fan girls in the *first* post. Why, I ask you?)

That is trolling. Or spam, which is trolling without the intent or intelligence.

But, ultimately, I conceed your point. There is nothing to be gained arguing with Matt. It's like arguing with a stuffed iguana.

[Animematt55]

But, ultimately, I conceed your point. There is nothing to be gained arguing with Matt. It's like arguing with a stuffed iguana.
http://www.celticattic.com/images/sales/stuffed_animals/beanie_babies/iggy.JPG
BTW typhon, i like the Men's rights link. while i am not apart of a men's rights group, i am associated with the head of the mens rights group for my local college.

[typhonblue]

BTW typhon, i like the Men's rights link. while i am not apart of a men's rights group, i am associated with the head of the mens rights group for my local college.

*sigh* How can you be interested in men's rights and not see the deterioration of men's friendships and solidarity due to homophobia as a major issue?

[Leader Desslock]

If someone came on here and said "Everyone who likes japanese anime/manga is mentally retarded because cartoons are for kids," you bet people would put them straight. And I wouldn't blame them for doing it.
A bit o' context: that's actually happened before on AN, and as I recall, there was a lot of pointless bickering and nobody set anyone else straight or altered their opinions in any way.

There was a recently locked thread about "The Dreaded C Word" (cartoon), and at the beginning of that thread (and at the beginning of all such threads) I stated (effectively) that I don't personally make a mental distinction between anime & cartoons either. After 18 pages, I hold the same opinion I did at the beginning of the thread: Animation is Animation. Even John has disagreed with that, but that doesn't mean anything significant to me other than "we disagree". I'm sure we're both comfortable with that.

My point? Well, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Unless your game plan is to win an argument against a stuffed lizard through attrition, I don't know why you bother trying to change his mind. Agree to disagree and call it pax.

That'd be my two cents, anyway. I gotta back Haruhi on this one.

That is trolling. Or spam, which is trolling without the intent or intelligence.
That's what the little red (X) is for, I'd say.


@Matt: :lol: @ the lizard.

[Ketaru]

There was a recently locked thread about "The Dreaded C Word" (cartoon), and at the beginning of that thread (and at the beginning of all such threads) I stated (effectively) that I don't personally make a mental distinction between anime & cartoons either. After 18 pages, I hold the same opinion I did at the beginning of the thread: Animation is Animation

I think that thread should be reopened. I have something to add about how, when anime fans shy away from the word "cartoon", they affectively alienate the sect of the animation fandom that would understand that they are not insane, childish, pedophiliac, or otherwise stunted somehow just because they watch animation (as many a stereotype of anime fan and cartoon fan holds).

Nothing wrong with saying "anime" to distinguish that it's from Japan, but to deny that they're cartoons really undermines the whole shift in mindset that older audiences "can" enjoy animation as a whole from an adult mindset.

[Kaosgirl]

If someone came on here and said "Everyone who likes japanese anime/manga is mentally retarded because cartoons are for kids," you bet people would put them straight. And I wouldn't blame them for doing it.


And they would be either fools or flame-addicts for doing so, since attempting to do so would only accomplish *exactly* what the hypothetical someone wanted: a disruptive flamefest. The 'someone' would simply keep fanning it with similar ignorant diatribes until everyone burnt out on the topic or left the forum.

It's an obvious troll, and obvious trolls should be ignored.
(I, unfortunately, am a flame-addict... I won't start a troll, but I'll play with them beyond the point of futility :( )



That is trolling. Or spam, which is trolling without the intent or intelligence.


Eh. If that's true, the webboards have a funky definition of spam...

[Shiroxx]

Jeebus, let it die already, Shiroxx. Let him have his perception of yaoi and just get on w/your life. Your ranting here is actually doing very little to change his opinion.

Or you know, you two can continue going back and forth and I'll just lock the thread. Either way is no big deal.


Just so you know, i wasn't ranting. I wasn't in the slightest interest in arguing with him. I was simply telling him not to spread false information- which he did. And that was what i wanted. But since a higher position mod has asked for the halt of the discussion, i'd gladly do so. But if he continues to spread false information, i have the right to correct him right?

[Animematt55]

*sigh* How can you be interested in men's rights and not see the deterioration of men's friendships and solidarity due to homophobia as a major issue?
i havent seen male friendship's on a decline....in fact i get along far better with males than i do with females.

[typhonblue]

i havent seen male friendship's on a decline....in fact i get along far better with males than i do with females.

Most of the modern cultural anthropologists that study men’s friendships have said the same thing, they’ve declined over the last century and a half in Christian nations. Some say they’ve declined since the 17th century. All point to homophobia as a root cause.

If you think male friendships haven’t declined over the past century and a half, take a look at these books:

Picturing Men: A Century of Male Relationships in Everyday American Photography (http://www.amazon.ca/Picturing-Men-Relationships-Everyday-Photography/dp/0226368580/sr=8-1/qid=1159557990/ref=sr_1_1/701-2066513-2445121?ie=UTF8&s=books)

Affectionate Men: A Photographic History of a Century of Male Couples, 1850-1950 (http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0312242859/ref=pe_606_3197510_pe_ar_d10312242859)

Both books comprise a photographic chronicle of men’s friendships in the west over the last hundred and fifty years. You’ll notice that men felt free to be far more intimate with each other then they do today. In fact these intimate photographs may have eclipsed, in number, _wedding_ photographs, suggesting that men then took their male friendships very seriously.

cont'd

[typhonblue]

If you want more information on some of the wheres and whys of this decline, I suggest the following book:

Men's Friendships: Research on Men and Masculinities (http://www.amazon.ca/Mens-Friendships-Research-Men-Masculinities/dp/0803937741/sr=1-4/qid=1159558155/ref=sr_1_4/701-2066513-2445121?ie=UTF8&s=books)

It presents some interesting data, offers a few explanations and looks at friendships in other cultures. Particularly interesting is its chapter on the Big Nambas of New Guinea, a society where male friendship and intimacy is _institutionalized_.

Incidentally other cultures treat male friendship far differently then our own. In some cultures men celebrate their friendships in ceremonies that are suspiciously akin to marriages.

I’ve lived in the middle east for over a decade, and the men there feel free to kiss, hold hands and cuddle in public without fear of being beaten, as they would be here in our “enlightened” western cultures. In Asia men are more circumspect, but I believe that’s because the culture is more reserved in general. They still express more non-sexual intimate affection with each other then they do in the west, holding hands and the like.
For a decent overview of the phenomena, take a look at this web-resource:

Romantic Friendship (http://www.gayhistory.com/rev2/words/romanticfriends.htm)

Ignore what is said about lesbianism. Even if sexual activity between women is now considered sex (incidentally, in India, sex between men, *isn’t* considered sex at all. It’s just masti, mischief) it is still considered desirable and not deplorable. Thus lesbian chic and the innumerable men who drool over lesbians and say that lesbianism in a woman increases her attractiveness, even if said woman is not attracted to men. Especially in some cases. Even more telling, all the lesbians I’ve met who have no compunction about kissing and cuddling in public without fear of physical reprisal.

(And before I get into another argument about gay-bashing not affecting lesbians, I dare who ever says this to actually *look* at the stats on gay bashing and who ends up dead. Strangely enough in a 99 to 1 margin, it’s *men*.)

[Kaosgirl]

(And before I get into another argument about gay-bashing not affecting lesbians, I dare who ever says this to actually *look* at the stats on gay bashing and who ends up dead. Strangely enough in a 99 to 1 margin, it’s *men*.)

Not that I expect it to make a huge difference, but are you counting MtF transgendered persons as men or as women?

[Animematt55]

Well way back when of course it was common for males to be more intimate with each other. Roman, Japanese, and i believe even Egypt, male-male relationships were expected. It was just something with the times.
i agree that relationships aren't that far these days, and sure that means they have decreased.
Excuse me as it is hard for me to articulate this....
Remember also that back then, women didn't have as many rights, if any,. as they do now. Even currently in the Middle East, women are nothign but property. Could that have something to do with is possibly?
I do agree that maybe the Christian 'ethics' of our times have made a lot of homophobia obviously present.
Also, with our means of war changing to a less personal way of fighting could be a reason. This includign the Christian 'ethic' (dont ask dont tell). In ancient cultures, warriors had intimate relationships. It was said to help them fight harder on the battle field.

all in all, i guess your right. But it isnt necisarily a declien in FRIENDSHIP, it is a declien in intimacy among friends.

[typhonblue]

Not that I expect it to make a huge difference, but are you counting MtF transgendered persons as men or as women?

Er... I think in this instance they should count as men because the reason why they are persecuted is *because* they are men.

[typhonblue]

Remember also that back then, women didn't have as many rights, if any,. as they do now. Even currently in the Middle East, women are nothign but property. Could that have something to do with is possibly?

It's not a zero-sum game, Matt. Men don't have to give up intimacy with other men (and suffer a subsequent decline in value) in order for women to have rights.

In fact I argue that men are suffering from a lack of social worth in our society that is equal to or, in some cases, worse then what women suffered historically.

But it isnt necisarily a declien in FRIENDSHIP, it is a declien in intimacy among friends.

It's also a contraction of men's frienship networks. Men have less intimate friendships and less friendships all around.

Which is why the incidence of suicide peaks among men after divorce. They've lost their main source of intimacy while their wives have their intimate female friendships to fall back on.

[Animematt55]

First of all, i was askign question...ever hear of the Socratic Method?
I am not sayign i disagree with you at all by any means. In fact, especially in the court systems and other social areas, men are almost always given the short end of the stick. WHich is really sad if you think about it.....what happened to equality?

[typhonblue]

First of all, i was askign question...ever hear of the Socratic Method?

Fine. To answer your question, yes, male solidarity and strong relationships between men are necessary (but not sufficient) for depriving women of social value.

[Kaosgirl]

Er... I think in this instance they should count as men because the reason why they are persecuted is *because* they are men.

I'll give you credit for thinking about it before answering, but I'd prefer to see it worded as "because they are percieved as men."

The rest of this, I think, would be better discussed elsewhere.
(Actually, so would that...)

[Animematt55]

Fine. To answer your question, yes, male solidarity and strong relationships between men are necessary (but not sufficient) for depriving women of social value.
this would make a good seperate discussion thread.