How I Came To Know Rei

[Reichu]

NOTE FOR 2006: This is rather old (duh), and I need to fix the image links. But it's still a "landmark" thread, which includes Reichu worship (which is always good -- or is it? :shifty: ), and it was about to die. So, what the hey! The relevant script is now here (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-25/episode-25A-scene5.html), BTW.

*****

About time I finally got around to doing this. Just to give fair warning, this will be a bit on the long side.

Those of you who have been around the forum long enough to see the full range of my "curious [Rei] antipathy" may have been wondering -- where on Earth has it all gone to?! It began early last month, when I read an essay (http://dclaw.topcities.com/muck.html) (by our own Incisivis) that put Misato, Asuka, and Rei up to the same scrutiny of character that is all too often reserved for bouts of Shinji bashing. Amanda considered Rei-003's return to Lilith a mark of personal weakness (see her essay for the full context), which I disagreed with (go fig ;)). However, while I was typing an e-mail explaining my standpoint, I inadvertently made what felt like an epiphany -- suddenly, some of the things about Rei that drove me more nuts than anything else finally made sense.

Personally, I do not think that Rei is in any way the shining paragon of perfection some of her fanboys/girls make her out to be. Although her soul came from a divine being, Rei herself has become irreparably human -- in spite of whatever positive qualities she arguably has, she is as deeply flawed as any of us, her psyche just as fragile. And some actions that might seem to highlight her personal strength, in truth, have a darker side to them.

I have found Rei's scene from Episode #25 to be indispensable for understanding what is going on in EoE. It's been thoroughly demonstrated how intimately the two endings are interconnected; courtesy of Shin-seiki's lessons in Good NGE Observational Skills, it's relatively easy to see how "The Case of Ayanami Rei" and #25' have been linked together.

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-25/25_C170_col-disc_mid.jpg (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-25/25_C170_col-disc.jpg)

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m25/m25_C252_mid.jpg (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m25/m25_C252_big.jpg)

EoTV is an intricate psychological analysis of the main characters, whereas EoE shows us a rather more definitive chronology of what is actually happening. Regardless, here, "The Case of Ayanami Rei" shows what I believe to be a representation of Rei's thought processes leading up to Gendou's summons. In EoE, we see Rei only in a state of silent contemplation...

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m25/m25_C246_c_mid.jpg

...whereas #25 puts into visual terms the inner conflict that is going on beneath Rei's cold exterior.

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-25/25_C156_b_big.jpg
http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-25/25_C157_b_big.jpg
http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-25/25_C158_b_big.jpg

After thoroughly studying the scene from #25, I have come to think that it, more than anything else in NGE, reveals the true nature of Rei's character. Of course, like anything else in EoTV, it is extremely cryptic and difficult to decipher. To help me in this task, I processed the appropriate section of #25's Japanese script, evaluating whatever translations I had available and ultimately coming up with my own take on the dialogue. The fruit of my labors can be found here (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-25/episode-25A-scene5.html).

The Japanese script (provided on the Renewal discs) is quite neat, as it provides not only all of the dialogue, but also breaks down the episodes into individual, numbered cuts and provides a brief text description for each cut. It does some odd things, such as refer to Gendou as "Ikari", Naoko as "Akagi", and every angel the somewhat indistinct "shito" rather than their actual names, but there are also unexpected perks. Of relevance here is the fact that the individual Reis (Rei 1, Rei 2, and Rei 3) are identified in "The Case of Ayanami Rei".

[Reichu]

Given the importance I have personally found in this scene -- and the horrifying extent to which Shin-seiki has corrupted me ;) -- I now present to you Reichu's Unofficial Walkthrough to "The Case of Ayanami Rei". (Translation of Japanese script by me, using the work of ADV and the Literal Translation Project as a stepping stone.)

C125 / Text: "The Third Character"

C126 / Text: "Ayanami Rei, Her Case"

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut127+129.jpg C127 / Rei close-up. Bandage over one eye. / Rei 3 "Who am I?"

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut128.JPG C128 / Close-up of Rei's eye. / Rei 2 "Ayanami Rei"

Rei 3 -- the current incarnation of Rei, currently pondering her existence in the bowels of NERV H.Q. -- pops the question that's been bugging her the most. But the answer comes from an unexpected place -- the previous version of herself.

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut127+129.jpg C129 / Bandaged Rei / Rei 3 "Who are you?"

C130 / Telop: "Ayanami Rei"

Ah, the use of telop to convey something that could be just as easily said to us aloud. It's understandable why Lilith's "Okaeri nasai" was telop, but Anno uses it so much here I wonder about the precise effect he was after... "Ayanami Rei" is obviously Rei 2's response to Rei 3's question, as the next cut demonstrates.

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut131.JPG C131 / Rei in a mirror / Rei 3 "You are also Ayanami Rei?"

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut132.JPG C132 / Rei in plugsuit / Rei 2 "Indeed, I am that which is called Ayanami Rei"

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut133.JPG C133 / Child Rei / Rei 1 "All of us are things called Ayanami Rei"

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut134.JPG C134 / Rei 3 across from Child Rei / Rei 3 "How are all of you me?"

(The answer: "Quantum magic".) Rei 3 is being confronted by the first uncomfortable truth -- she is but one of three entities known as Ayanami Rei. Although the other two have since died, their presences live on to expose, throughout the rest of the scene, the truth of the third.

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut135.JPG C135 / Rei 2 beyond Rei 3, who was just seen from the front speaking / Rei 2 "Because other people call all of us Ayanami Rei"

Notice how Rei 2 and Rei 3 are standing together opposite from Rei 1 -- a visual signal of the denial both of them will shortly provide.

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut136.JPG C136 / Rei 1 across from Rei 3 / Rei 1 "Why do you have a false mind and a false body?"

And Rei 1, after morphing into her eerie "EVA-00" incarnation, throws the first bone into the fray. Note how the script refers to this version of Rei 1 as simply "Rei 1", whereas the somewhat less creepy version is "Child Rei".

Rei 1's role in this interchange is quite interesting. Whereas Rei 2 and Rei 3 are defined personalities attempting to validate the feelings of self and individuality that they experience, Rei 1 leaves no such impression. Rather, she comes across as a harbinger of the truth. She bore such tidings to Naoko in #21 (to her own demise), and now she does the same for her successive incarnations. Although child-like in appearance, she is clearly the one Rei in lieu with what's really going on, lacking a defined sense of self because she knows who she really is. But she doesn't come out with the truth up front -- rather, she seems to be prodding the others into a certain direction, countering every truth that they hold for themselves with the cold, harsh reality.

[Reichu]

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut137.JPG C137 / Rei 3 from the front, close-up / Rei 3 "They are not false. I am I."

I think *some*one's in denial...

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut138a.JPG C138 / Close-up of glasses case. Towards the end of the cut, a click as it closes / Rei 1 (off-camera) "No, you are a person whose false soul was cultivated by a human called Ikari Gendou"

"Cultivated"... :look: :lol: I like it better than the alternatives, though. I do not think that this line has to be interpreted as meaning that Gendou somehow CREATED the soul inside Rei 3. Rather, it refers to the fact that Gendou manipulated Lilith's soul into being something it was not. It should be fairly apparent that Rei 1 is being somewhat "nicer" to her other selves than she was to Naoko, hence the blatant ambiguity.

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut139.JPG C139 / Side profile of Rei gazing at the glasses / Rei 1 (off-camera) "You are no more than a fabricated object pretending to be human"

And, indeed, that is what Rei truly is.

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut140.JPG C140 / Child Rei close-up / Rei 1 "Look within yourself. Is there not a mind so shrouded in darkness you can neither see nor understand it?"

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut141b.JPG C141 / Close-up of Rei's mouth. Leering and laughing / Rei 1: "That is where the true you exists"

(Indeed, the original Lilith remains so utterly shrouded in darkness none of us otaku can either see or understand it, either...) Rei 1's words here definitely have profound implications. Incisivis put it very aptly in one of our correspondences:

While Lilith is "human" in a sense, her shape, and perhaps the "feel" of her mind, soul, and presence would come across as alien on first analysis (just as the humans didn't see the connection between humans and Angels/Shito until later in the series).

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut142.JPG C142 / Rei close-up / Rei 2 "I am I. I have become what I am now through my connections to other people"

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut143a.JPG C143 / Image of silhouette Rei sinking into the water / Rei 3 (off-camera/right): "The shape of my current self is being formed through my contact with other people"
Rei 2 (off-camera/left) "My interaction with people and the flow of time change the shape of my mind"

C144 / Text: "Those are bonds?"

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut145.JPG C145 / Rei, side profile, close-up / Rei 2 "Yes, those are the things that have formed me -- the one called Ayanami Rei -- until now, and they will continue to form me after this"

C146 / Text: "Those are bonds"

We learned in #06 that Rei 2 considered her bonds to others to be all that she had, and, here, it would seem that Rei 3 is not so different. They both elevate their relationships with other people to the highest level and allow their sense of individuality to be shaped by such interactions completely.

[Reichu]

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut147.JPG C147 / Child Rei close-up / Rei 1 "Even so, there is another who is the true you"

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut148+150.JPG C148 / Rei inside the tank turning around in unison

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut149.JPG C149 / Child Rei, side profile, close-up / Rei 1 "It's just that you don't know her"

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut148+150.JPG C150 / Rei turning around in unison

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut151.JPG C151 / Close-up of Child Rei's eye / Rei 1 "Because you don't want to look at it, you're just avoiding something inside you that you don't understand"

The ADV translation of C151's line was certainly much more eloquent... -o-;

C152 / Text: "Because you're afraid"

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut153a.JPG C153 / Pictures / Rei 1 (off-camera) "Because she might not have a human form"

How nice of Rei 1 to drop the bomb on Rei 2 and 3 after both of them tried so valiantly to validate their existences. The "might not" above is obviously more of NGE's fine Ambiguity For Effect at work. Granted, Lilith is considerably more human in form than the cool paintings that flash by, but it is true that she is not human in the Lilim sense.

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut154b.JPG C154 / Reis smiling and laughing underwater / Rei 1 (off-camera) "Because you might cease to be who you are now"

C155 / Text: "You are afraid"

Ah, fear. This is more integral to Rei's personality that you might think.

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut156.JPG C156 / Silhouettes of Reis slowly falling apart. Child Rei standing in front of them / Rei 1 "Afraid that your current self will cease to be"
Rei 1 "Afraid that you will disappear from within the minds of others"

And these words, in my mind, explain what had been to me one of the more puzzling occurrences in EoE ... but more on that after the Walkthrough.

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut157.JPG C157 / Rei, side profile, close-up / Rei 3 "Afraid? I don't understand"

I'm not quite sure what it is that Rei 3 doesn't understand. Is it just that Rei 1's message isn't sinking in, somehow? That would seem to be the case, given Rei 1's next line.

[Reichu]

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut158.JPG C158 / Smiling Rei, side profile, close-up / Rei 1 "The world of your current self will be no more"

Odd how the animation used for Rei 1 here comes from what is commonly thought to be Armisael taking on Rei 2's image. Does this support the notion that Rei 2 was actually just talking to Rei 1 and not Armisael? Or should we not look that deeply into the recycling of old footage?

C159 / Text: "Aren't you afraid?"

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut160.JPG C160 / Close-up of laughing face / Rei 1 "The current self will fade away"

C161 / Text: "Aren't you afraid?"

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut162+168.JPG C162 / Commanding view of Rei sitting in folding chair / Rei 3 "No, I'm overjoyed"
Rei 3 (right) "I am one who desires death"
Rei 3 (left) "All I need is despair"
Rei 3 "I want to return to nothing"

A little nihilistic, isn't she? The personalities of Rei 2 and Rei 3 clash yet again. Rei 2 could not wait to die, and, apparently, neither can Rei 3. Although this desire of hers to "return to nothing" (FYI, one of the key sentiments of "Amaki shi yo, kitare" -- a.k.a., "Komm süsser Tod") is strangely at odds with the way that she clings stalwart to her individuality in the face of Rei 1's revelations.

C163 / Black screen / Rei 2 "But you can't"

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut164.JPG / C164 / Moon from ending / Rei 2 "You can't return to nothing"

And speaking of which... What, precisely, does she mean by "return to nothing"...?

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut165.JPG C165 / Glasses on top of chest / Rei 2 "That person won't let you return"

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut166.JPG C166 / Rei and glasses / Rei 3 "Won't let me return and end it yet"

Is she referring to Rei 1's "prophecy"? In returning to Lilith, her true self, the entity called Rei would disappear so that Lilith might exist again, and Rei would return to the nothing she was before Gendou created her?

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut167.JPG C167 / Smiling Rei in a conversation / Rei 2 (off-camera) "I existed because that person needed me"

In other words, because "that person" (Gendou) wanted to puppet Lilith's soul so that Instrumentality would go his way? ;)

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut162+168.JPG C168 / Rei sitting in folding chair / Rei 3 "But in the end"
Rei 3 "I won't be needed"
Rei 3 "I will be cast aside by that person"

http://www.evamonkey.com/commentary/episode-25/25_cut169b.JPG C169 / Rei front close-up. Brings her head down after saying "Now..." / Rei 3 "Although I've been longing for that day...
Now I fear it"

Why has Rei been longing for her abandonment? And, conversely, why does she now fear it...? This is not terribly elaborated upon.

[Reichu]

C170 / In the darkness, Rei standing in front of Ikari / Sound Effect <<RATTLE (Sound of Rei standing up from folding chair)>>
Ikari "Now, let's go. You have existed for today...

On a random note, Gendou says "Saa, ikou" both here and in the corresponding scene in #25'.

C171 / Ikari, side profile close-up / "This day, Rei."

C172 / Rei, side profile close-up / Rei "Yes"

And so, despite all she has just been through, Rei is still willing to continue being Gendou's puppet. It seems to take a little while for her inhibition to kick in -- the first sign comes after Gendou's gone so far as to stick his hand into her...

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C028_mid.jpg
("Ikari-kun.")

...when her awareness reminds her of the one for whom her previous self had chosen death. And so, without a single sign of emotion, she turns the tables and abandons Gendou before he has a chance to do it to her.

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C095_d_mid.jpg

And, in spite of Rei 1's taunts, Rei 3 does, ultimately, confront the truth about who she is...

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C101_mid.jpg

...and return to the body in which her soul belongs. [BTW, I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but the place on Lilith's chest where Rei is absorbed corresponds nicely to the solar plexus on Adam or an Eva -- the location of the core, where they keep their souls.]

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C103_c_mid.jpg

[Reichu]

Yet if Rei 3 has accepted that she is truly Lilith, why does this happen?

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C113_tile2.jpg

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C128_h_mid.jpg

This puzzled me -- why return to your true self, only to mold your true self into the form of the fabricated object you had been placed within?? Yet, as I said a bit earlier on, Rei 1 provided us with the answer.

"Because you're afraid. Afraid that your current self will cease to be. Afraid that you will disappear from within the minds of others."

Rei 3 was afraid of confronting the "dark mind" that represents her true self. And even after she finally did face this truth and was welcomed "home", she decided that Lilith was not what she wanted to be. The fact that Rei 3's form is not her true one does not seem to ultimately matter to her. She was afraid of disappearing completely, and, to avoid this personal dilemma, Lilith became Rei, rather than Rei returning to Lilith that which was taken from her (her soul) and then fading into nonexistence. And even with the body of a divinity, Rei 3 continues to let her bonds with others (namely, Shinji) form what she is -- she lets them decide her actions, which, ultimately, results in her physical demise.

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C432_e_mid.jpg

And then, all that remains of the entity known as Lilith is the spiritual presence of Rei 3.

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C468_col-disc_mid-crop.jpg

We will never know what Lilith was originally like -- Rei 3 will see to that. Something about this disappoints me terribly. Lilith. A mysterious entity, billions of years old, about whom we know nothing. The mother of us all, yet we possessed the insolence to defile her body and soul. That existence and everything she originally was is lost after Lilith was forced to walk briefly among mortals, and Lilith went from being something beyond human to an entity as weak and frail as any of us. And rather than determining her own fate, her own future, when she finally obtains the power to do so, she lets someone else decide for her. Lilith is lost, leaving behind only the ghost of Rei 3.

I'm still not entirely sure how I should feel about this. (Granted, NGE is but fiction, though I am the type who prefers fiction that stirs both my mind and emotions -- both of which NGE does quite well.) But, perhaps, Amanda put it best:

"...I'm rather wary of the idea that if a being's new identity wants to exist over the old identity, there's something wrong with that. It's not "fair" to Lilith, but not to Rei, either. It's a moral conundrum."

And one that is ultimately irresolvable (as the best conundrums are). Not that it is terribly important in the grand scheme of things -- but at least it is one more item for us NGE nerds to think about.

A winner is you! You made it to the end of my post!! (Well, due to the nature of this forum, it's spread out over multiple posts, but you get the idea.) And thank jebus it's over... I eagerly await whatever chaos might erupt as a result of my long-winded musings! :maniacal laughter:

[GandalfsWhisper]

Dear God, that's a long "post." I must remember to read it when I'm awake.

[tv33]

You finally made this thread! Yay! (And on my birthday no less, Just barley February 14).


Originally posted by Reichu
How nice of Rei 1 to drop the bomb on Rei 2 and 3 after both of them tried so valiantly to validate their existences.

A big part of Eva is the characters trying to justify their existence. Shinji and Asuka both feel it’s to pilot Eva, and they tie the meaning and reason for their existence too it.

Originally posted by Reichu
And even after she finally did face this truth and was welcomed "home", she decided that Lilith was not what she wanted to be.

I don’t think you are seeing this in the right light. Its not that Lilith is not what she wants to be, it’s that she can’t throw away what she has become. It’s the same with everyone, she can’t forget what has happened to her as Rei any more than you or I can go back to the blissful innocence that was childhood. Her taking the form of Rei (Or rather of Yui) is symbolic of this

Originally posted by Reichu
And rather than determining her own fate, her own future, when she finally obtains the power to do so, she lets someone else decide for her.

I think it was more of a moral thing. Shinji was going to decide what happened to humanity. It had to be a human that made that choice. Rei as Lilith could not decide humanities path for us, she could only assist with the choice Shinji made. And as we witnessed death is a different matter for her than us.

Originally posted by Reichu
We will never know what Lilith was originally like -- Rei 3 will see to that. Something about this disappoints me terribly. Lilith. A mysterious entity, billions of years old, about whom we know nothing. The mother of us all, yet we possessed the insolence to defile her body and soul.

You said yourself we don’t know what she was like so how do we know she is Defiling anything (As far as her soul is concerned)? And like I said the events of her life as Rei are apart of her, she can’t throw them away any more than you or I can forget the events of our lives, and the people we have become because of them.

Originally posted by Reichu
Lilith went from being something beyond human to an entity as weak and frail as any of us

Once again we don’t know what Lilith was like. She could be more human than we think. Why did she create humanity (If it was a choice)? If there is a God why did he create us? Perhaps she was lonely?

[Reichu]

Originally posted by tv33
You said yourself we don’t know what she was like so how do we know she is Defiling anything (As far as her soul is concerned)?

I actually said that the Lilim were the ones doing the defiling.

As far as what Lilith was originally like -- Rei 1 seemed to be insinuating that Lilith's original self was much, much different from the very human Rei. "A mind so shrouded in darkness you can neither see nor understand it."

I'm going to wait and see what other replies crop up before addressing your other points. Hope you don't mind.

[tv33]

Originally posted by Reichu
I actually said that the Lilim were the ones doing the defiling.

Oops! Forgive my inability to read. :dizzy:

[yjs]

WHAA! Explosion of ideas and information making my brain explode! Can't think of intelligent reply...

But an interesting take on Rei. I've always though Rei renunited with Lilith to help Shinji, but now I understand better why she did it.

[Fuzzy Chickens]

How interesting that you take chibi-Rei's side of things when she doesn't provide any evidence for her accusations...

Rei is arguing with herself. Both Reis say they are right and the other is wrong. Neither can prove it. Why believe one over the other?

Also:

Odd how the animation used for Rei 1 here comes from what is commonly thought to be Armisael taking on Rei 2's image. Does this support the notion that Rei 2 was actually just talking to Rei 1 and not Armisael [in episode 23]?

Did you ever consider that maybe she's talking to Armisael and not "Rei 1" in Episode 25?

despite all she has just been through, Rei is still willing to continue being Gendou's puppet

I disagree. I believe she planned to betray him from the moment she woke up that morning - or did you forget the broken glasses?

Rei 3 does, ultimately, confront the truth about who she is... and return to the body in which her soul belongs

That is VERY open to debate...

she lets them decide her actions

And THAT I must fiercely disagree with. From episode 18 onward (hesitating to fire on Unit 03), and possibly a while beforehand, not one of her actions is decided by another person. She makes her own decisions. As for starting Third Impact, I don't think she could just walk away from Gendo and try to live a normal life - he'd send Nerv intelligence to track her down and bring her back by any means necessary, so Lillith was just about the only place she had left to go. Letting Shinji decide the fate of humanity (if that's what really happened) was not a big sacrifice on her part, since after all is said and done, everyone gets to decide for themselves whether to live in the real world or not, at least according to common interpretation.

[Crazy Penguin]

Did you ever consider that maybe she's talking to Armisael and not "Rei 1" in Episode 25?

That makes...absolutely no sense, whatsoever.

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Chickens
How interesting that you take chibi-Rei's side of things when she doesn't provide any evidence for her accusations...

Rei is arguing with herself. Both Reis say they are right and the other is wrong. Neither can prove it. Why believe one over the other?

Because Rei 1's accusations embody a truth that Rei 2 and 3 don't want to hear. And, evidently, neither do you. ;)

Did you ever consider that maybe she's talking to Armisael and not "Rei 1" in Episode 25?

Nope. The script ascribes the lines to Rei 1. I said in the beginning that I translated the Japanese script and used that for my "walkthrough" -- not sure how you missed that.

I disagree. I believe she planned to betray him from the moment she woke up that morning - or did you forget the broken glasses?

Yeah, I did. Odd how long Rei was playing along with things though, wasn't it? Even though her breaking of the glasses might seem like a decisive action, #25 seems to indicate how indecisive she really was.

That is VERY open to debate...

Most of the other folks here probably don't feel the same way. :P

As for starting Third Impact, I don't think she could just walk away from Gendo and try to live a normal life - he'd send Nerv intelligence to track her down and bring her back by any means necessary, so Lillith was just about the only place she had left to go.

Lilith was where she belonged the whole time, sonny.

Rei's decision to intervene is clearly Shinji-related. Before she betrays Gendou she thinks of him, and afterwards she says "Ikari-kun is calling me". (Which is odd, since he doesn't seem very happy to see her later...) Had she done nothing, Third Impact would have proceeded SEELE's way, with EVA-01, the ryousanki, and the copy Lances.

So what was in it for Rei? I dunno -- maybe this (http://www.evamonkey.com/reichu/snappies/m26_rei,shinji_lcl-sea.jpg). :scared:

[Pepperidge]

What about Adam?

Adam, and presumably his soul, were floating around inside Rei/Lilith somewhere. Do you think that they had truly united to form one being, or that Rei had dominated over both?

And, for that matter, how does Kaworu factor in? Was that actually his soul communicating with Shinji, or just a facade being played out by Rei?

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Originally posted by Reichu
Because Rei 1's accusations embody a truth that Rei 2 and 3 don't want to hear. And, evidently, neither do you. ;)

I ask "Why believe person X over person Y" and you say "because X is right."

Wow. Your reasoning is impressively artight.

Originally posted by Reichu
Nope. The script ascribes the lines to Rei 1. I said in the beginning that I translated the Japanese script and used that for my "walkthrough" -- not sure how you missed that.

Oh yeah. Silly me.

Originally posted by Reichu
Lilith was where she belonged the whole time, sonny.

Lillith "belonged" nailed to that cross? Weren't you just *****ing and moaning about all the horrible things that humans had done to her?

Originally posted by Reichu
Rei's decision to intervene is clearly Shinji-related. Before she betrays Gendou she thinks of him, and afterwards she says "Ikari-kun is calling me". (Which is odd, since he doesn't seem very happy to see her later...)

He probably wasn't expecting to see a white, naked, 5,000-foot-tall version of her. Although he was suspiciously happy with Kaworu's similar appearance...

Originally posted by Reichu
Had she done nothing, Third Impact would have proceeded SEELE's way, with EVA-01, the ryousanki, and the copy Lances.

Amazing how you back that up with... absolutely nothing.

*wonders what the hell a "ryousanki" is*

Originally posted by Reichu
So what was in it for Rei? I dunno -- maybe this (http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughters/snappies/m26_rei,shinji_lcl-sea.jpg).

Hell yeah! :crush: And for two minutes, she had it.

Originally posted by Pepperidge
how does Kaworu factor in? Was that actually his soul communicating with Shinji, or just a facade being played out by Rei?

They seem to be separate entities - Kaworu really did find his way in there somehow. He says he has Adam's Soul in the Director's Cut of episode 24; if this is true, his soul may have returned to Adam when his head popped off.

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Pepperidge
What about Adam?

Hmm, yes... What ABOUT Adam? Putting that Rei stuff together took so much out of me, I'm allowed a few oversights. ;)

Adam, and presumably his soul, were floating around inside Rei/Lilith somewhere. Do you think that they had truly united to form one being, or that Rei had dominated over both?

Dominated over "both"? Aside from Kaworu/Adam, who else was there to dominate? But I think it was pretty evident that Rei/Lilith was the dominant personality of GNR -- the presence of Kaworu/Adam is only evidenced when she briefly splits into a Giant Rei/Kaworu conglomerate to appease Shinji. All Adam is really doing is giving Lilith access to the Super-Solenoid she previously lacked. Instrumentality involves the offspring of Lilith, not Adam -- he's just a passive observer along for the ride.

And, for that matter, how does Kaworu factor in? Was that actually his soul communicating with Shinji, or just a facade being played out by Rei?

That's a tough one... I'm not even exactly sure why it was so important to pacify Shinji -- is it just because Rei cares for him (even though he's terrified of her) and didn't want to see him suffering? That aside, I think it is possible that Rei was genuinely giving Kaworu temporary reign over the GNR body. She wanted to show Shinji something that would bring him comfort and she had Kaworu right there. "Aw, Ikari-kun's going nuts -- would you mind doing your thing, Kaworu, er, Adam?" "It would be my pleasure!"

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Chickens
I ask "Why believe person X over person Y" and you say "because X is right."

Wow. Your reasoning is impressively artight.

I think you mean "airtight".

My reasoning feels rather sound to me. The things that Rei 1 says all have a basis in Rei's reality. You have a completely different (and IMO fundamentally WRONG) idea about what Rei is, hence you fail to see that Rei 1 is a harbinger of the truth. Is this surprising? Not at all.

Lillith "belonged" nailed to that cross? Weren't you just *****ing and moaning about all the horrible things that humans had done to her?

The "she" referred to Rei, not Lilith.

He probably wasn't expecting to see a white, naked, 5,000-foot-tall version of her. Although he was suspiciously happy with Kaworu's similar appearance...

5,000 feet, eh? Way back when (http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3129812&highlight=black+moon+height#post3129812) , I guesstimated GNR's initial height to be about 4.85km (compared to 145.5km once Instrumentality begins). I'm too lazy to figure out how many feet that is, though.

Amazing how you back that up with... absolutely nothing.

The different 3I scenarios have been given so much coverage on this forum, I didn't feel like repeating what had been summarized a zillion times before. So sorry.

*wonders what the hell a "ryousanki" is*

HAHAHAHAHAH! n00b!!!

Oh, wait, I already took care of that in another thread.

They seem to be separate entities - Kaworu really did find his way in there somehow. He says he has Adam's Soul in the Director's Cut of episode 24; if this is true, his soul may have returned to Adam when his head popped off.

He couldn't have, because in NGE your soul lingers in your body as long as your body remains (even in part). Kaworu's soul would be contained by his head (an odd thought, but whatever) and Gendou apparently transferred it back into Adam using those mysterious soul-transferring technologies that are never elaborated upon.

[GandalfsWhisper]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Chickens
I ask "Why believe person X over person Y" and you say "because X is right."

because person X is right.

[Shin-seiki]

Well, this is simply amazing stuff, and, while I'm not 100% convinced about one or two points, I nevertheless found this all very illuminating.

Before I take this on, point by point, however, I wanted to take look at the shots in Ep25' that correspond to 'The Case of Ayamami Rei' inEp25, to assess whether certain possible visual correlations actually amount to anything.

Here's the first relevant shot from Ep25':
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Yesod/Ep25'_soak1.jpg

I've got my hands on a pic derived from that shot ( an actual cell, perhaps?), which reveals an intriguing detail of this pool that Rei is soaking in:
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Yesod/t5rei2.jpg

What's all this writing on the walls of the pool? It looks like Greek, and Hebrew, maybe, but I can't really make any sense of it...

The next shot is rather blatantly symbolic...
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Yesod/Ep25'_soak.jpg

What I want to know is what is the connection with this shot from Ep23'?
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Yesod/EP23'_EVA_dump.jpg

(Reichu gets the credit for that excellent composite of the 'EVA graveyard' scene; Here (http://avians.net/rkc/14daughters/snappies/23npc_kaasan-ga-kieta-tokoro.jpg) is the original)

In the Full OP video, these two shots are rather obviously linked; the panning shot of Lilith and Shogouki joined, and the panning shot of the EVA graveyayd:
(as you can see, Reichu is a lot better at compositing pix than I am)
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Yesod/Pan_Lil_Sho.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Yesod/Pan_Eva_Dump.jpg

Ritsuko tells Shinji that "This is the place where your mother disappeared", which ties in with the way that Yui's obituary is laid over the pan of the EVA dump.

Interstingly enough, this scene of Rei taking an LCL bath down in Terminal is one of the few occasion where the DVD Audio Commentary has something useful to add...

At the actual point where this is on screen:
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Yesod/Ep25'_soak1.jpg

AWL is making a typical witless digression on the subject of Rei's butt, but then she remembers that Talison had a point he was going to make:

AWL: So, what were you saying about the seven pools?

TJ: OK, that, um.. she's kinda sitting in that LCL pool right there; it was kind of shaped out as the Kabbalistic Tree of Life, kind of a post-modern one; and its a little off, but we figured out that she sitting in what is called Yesod, which is this one particular sphere of this map of the universe-

JL: -and it's the Hebrew for 'hot tub', I think-

[laughter]

JL: I'm sorry

TJ: And it's very much the gateway of Death, and it's the doorway of the dream realm into the ethereal; and she is on the cusp of death, she is ready to cross out of this world and into the next, if we are to read it that way, which, um, I don't know, I like the pool shaped that way-

AWL: -Of course! Why not...

TJ: This film is meticulous in its ability to be completely incomprehensible...

(just think: that was one of the more lucid parts of the commentary :rolleyes:)

Anyway, I looked up Yesod and here is what I came up with:

Yesod:
The ninth emanation on the Tree of Life. Yesod is associated with the Moon and the element Water. Regarded as a Female sphere, it is the seat of sexual instinct and corresponds to the Genitals Chakra on the archetypal man, ADAM KADMON. On the Tree of Life Yesod has the function of channelling the energies of the higher down to the earth below(Malkuth). Occultists associate Yesod with the ASTRAL PLANE, because if the sephiroth above Malkuth are regarded as a map of the unconscious psyche, Yesod is the most accesible area of the mind. Because Yesod is the sphere of Fertility and Lunar imagery, it is identified with Witchcraft and Goddess Worship. It also the so called 'animal soul' know by kabbalists as Nephesch.

(That came from here (http://www.boudicca.de/cabin-e.htm))

Very interesting, huh... Especially that stuff about "associated with the Moon and the element Water" (http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Moon/End_Rei-Moon.jpg)

Here's (http://www.crystalinks.com/kabala.html) some more neat stuff about the Kabbala and the Sephiroth.

[tv33]

Originally posted by Reichu
Rei's decision to intervene is clearly Shinji-related. Before she betrays Gendou she thinks of him, and afterwards she says "Ikari-kun is calling me". (Which is odd, since he doesn't seem very happy to see her later...) :

This is very understandable as she is enormous. However I have never been able to wrap my mind around why he would react so differently to Kaworu. Its quite confusing.

And what happened to you addressing my first post? :(

[Reichu]

Originally posted by tv33
This is very understandable as she is enormous. However I have never been able to wrap my mind around why he would react so differently to Kaworu. Its quite confusing.

Well, Shinji has apparently been frightened by Rei ever since his little experience with a bunch of giggling clones. Kaworu briefly provided him with more comfort that he had ever felt in the presence of another person (except, perhaps, for Yui), which was, of course, offset by the fact that Kaworu later requested to be killed. Seeing Kaworu again in the midst of absolute terror (floating in the sky, completely helpless within EVA-01, having seen the mutilated remnants of EVA-02 and the matter of Asuka's death finally hitting home, surrounded by a flock of terrifying white things with big blue spears and feeling his mama's crucifiction, being confronted by a giant white Rei with Lilith's frightening eyes, etc.) was surely so unexpected that Shinji could overlook the fact that Kaworu was giant, white, and suspiciously androgynous. ;)

And what happened to you addressing my first post? :(

The replies I had been waiting for arrived in a bit of a tidal wave, but since you've reminded me, I might as well take a stab at that now. (And this is a little belated, but happy birthday! :) I guess my timing was impeccable.)

A big part of Eva is the characters trying to justify their existence. Shinji and Asuka both feel it’s to pilot Eva, and they tie the meaning and reason for their existence too it.

Indeed this is the case. For the record, I don't really think Shinji or Asuka are going about things the right way, either. ;)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Reichu
And even after she finally did face this truth and was welcomed "home", she decided that Lilith was not what she wanted to be.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don’t think you are seeing this in the right light. Its not that Lilith is not what she wants to be, it’s that she can’t throw away what she has become. It’s the same with everyone, she can’t forget what has happened to her as Rei any more than you or I can go back to the blissful innocence that was childhood. Her taking the form of Rei (Or rather of Yui) is symbolic of this

Well, Rei 01 seemed to be insinuating that to return to Lilith would be, essentially, for the thing known as Rei to become nothing. Once the soul is where it's meant to be, the original, true self is restored, as well. This is, paradoxically, both what Rei 3 intensely fears and intensely desires. She is afraid of what she has become disappearing, but at the same time she longs for such a return.

The way I see it, it WAS possible for Lilith to be restored, at Rei's expense. Yet the way things turned out, Rei returned to Lilith's body without abandoning her current self -- but in order to do that, she had to reject what Lilith originally was. She COULD have "thrown it all away" and returned to her primordial, not-so-human self, but chose not to. And if #25 is any indication, this is because of fear -- as Rei 1 said.

Sorry if I'm starting to sound redundant. -o-; I'm just trying to make sense of what's provided.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Reichu
And rather than determining her own fate, her own future, when she finally obtains the power to do so, she lets someone else decide for her.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it was more of a moral thing. Shinji was going to decide what happened to humanity. It had to be a human that made that choice. Rei as Lilith could not decide humanities path for us, she could only assist with the choice Shinji made.

A matter of principle. ;) I will agree with you there, that it is much more fitting for a Lilim to determine the Lilim's future than for Lilith to do so. (Though as their creator, she could probably get away with making decisions for them...) I suppose I was referring more to Rei's choice to intervene in Instrumentality at all -- the way things were going, after all, Lilith and Adam were not needed.

But, then, Shinji was also doomed to be at the epicenter of 3I. (His fault for getting into kaasan and letting kaasan go bousou, sprout wings, and start floating in the air and stuff, I suppose.) And here I start getting confused. Rei seemed to return to Lilith so that she could go to "Ikari-kun" -- but if she was really acting in Shinji's interest, why didn't she just stop 3I before it happened (as she certainly possessed the power to do so)? Did Shinji really climb into EVA-01 because he was interested in seeing everyone die, or did Rei decide that, regardless of what Shinji really wanted to do that afternoon, Instrumentality was the way things had to go unless the Lilim she cared for most rejected the idea?

And as we witnessed death is a different matter for her than us.

Do you mean because her presence continues to exist even after her physical demise?

Why did she create humanity (If it was a choice)? If there is a God why did he create us? Perhaps she was lonely?

I can't say anything about God's motivations for creating us, since I'm personally athiest and every religious denomination no doubt ascribes a different motivation to their Creator. As far as Lilith, I don't really think she played a role in our creation any more than bleeding onto a barren Earth the stuff the first organisms arose from -- but that's just my opinion.

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
Well, this is simply amazing stuff, and, while I'm not 100% convinced about one or two points, I nevertheless found this all very illuminating.

:blush: :blush: :blush:

As for the things you're not convinced about, I'd certainly like to hear them. (Though I'm assuming that's to come in your follow-up points.) I'm not entirely sure about some of the ideas I presented, myself -- but, then, coming up with many different possibilities and systematically eliminating the ones that don't work is, IMO, a fairly effective way of getting closer to the truth.

I've got my hands on a pic derived from that shot ( an actual cell, perhaps?)

It's certainly from the Collector's Disc for EoE. I don't own it personally, but I've found a lot of the images from it floating around on the Internet. The screenshots off the Collector's Discs are simply amazing -- crisper and brighter than any image you can get from Renewal, and they often show more of a particular scene that what makes it onto film.

What I want to know is what is the connection with this shot from Ep23'?

I noticed the similarities between the graveyard and Rei's sauna hole, but the implied connection is completely beyond me. As TJ observed, the sauna holes (for lack of a better term :P) correspond to the KToL, whereas the arrangement of circles and lines in the graveyard don't seem to correspond to anything. (At least, anything that we know of.) It clearly RESEMBLES the KToL, but it's something different.

I remember commenting about the connection between the graveyard and the site of Yui's experiment in the thread where I originally posted the composite, but I hadn't noticed the link in the Full-Size OP! Very cool -- I'll have to go watch it a few more times. :drool:

On the subject of the graveyard, I'm a little curious about why such a weird structure was made in the first place, since it wasn't originally a dumping grounds. And if it wasn't originally a dumping grounds, and EVA-01 came AFTER EVA-00, where was GEHIRN putting all those dead prototypes beforehand? Why did they decide to use Yui's experiment grounds as a dump afterwards?

Very interesting, huh... Especially that stuff about "associated with the Moon and the element Water" (http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Moon/End_Rei-Moon.jpg)

Very neat. Makes me wonder what other connection we'd find if we buried our noses a little more deeply into the Kabbalic literature. (I tried at one point, but I couldn't make heads or tails of it. So I read about Adam, Eve, Lilith, and angels instead. -o-;)

I await the rest of your commentary with bated breath!

[tv33]

Originally posted by Reichu
Well, Rei 01 seemed to be insinuating that to return to Lilith would be, essentially, for the thing known as Rei to become nothing.

I used to see Rei-01 as the nagging doubt in Rei's mind that only presents half truths mixed with fear rather than the ultimate source of truth as you do. Though some of the evidence you present is interesting and making me reconsider my stance.

The other chanters seem to have this false fear presented as truth as well, except they let other characters express their fear rather than a mirror of themselves.

I saw it as rather than a definite fact that if she returned to Lilith she would lose her Rei self, I saw it as a possibility she was afraid of.

Originally posted by Reichu
The way I see it, it WAS possible for Lilith to be restored, at Rei's expense. Yet the way things turned out, Rei returned to Lilith's body without abandoning her current self -- but in order to do that, she had to reject what Lilith originally was. She COULD have "thrown it all away" and returned to her primordial, not-so-human self, but chose not to

But why would she want to reject Rei? The experiences and ties to people she formed as Rei were valuable to her, why throw it away just to become someone she once was? When Rei returned to Lilith and retained her Rei-esqueness, she was getting what she wanted, a return to her old body, while maintaining the self she wanted. She had her cake and ate it too. ;)

Originally posted by Reichu
Rei seemed to return to Lilith so that she could go to "Ikari-kun" -- but if she was really acting in Shinji's interest, why didn't she just stop 3I before it happened (as she certainly possessed the power to do so)? Did Shinji really climb into EVA-01 because he was interested in seeing everyone die, or did Rei decide that, regardless of what Shinji really wanted to do that afternoon, Instrumentality was the way things had to go unless the Lilim she cared for most rejected the idea?

I think its very clear that Rei gave him the choice (Even gave him a few chances to reconsider)


Shinji:
Nobody wants me. So, everybody just die.

Rei:
Then, what are those hands for?

Shinji:
Nobody cares whether I exist or not... Nothing will change.
So, everybody just die.

Rei:
Then, what is that heart for?

Shinji:
It'd be better if I wasn't here either. So I should just die, too.

Rei:
Then, why are you here?

Shinji made the choices for Instrumentality because he thought the above. After he did it however he saw how it was not the world he imagined, and Rei was kind enough to let him hit the restart button.

Originally posted by Reichu
Do you mean because her presence continues to exist even after her physical demise?

Indeed. If Shinji choose to reject Instrumentality and it cost Rei her marshmallow form, it was of littler matter as she still existed as an Uber-soul entity.

Originally posted by Reichu
As far as Lilith, I don't really think she played a role in our creation any more than bleeding onto a barren Earth the stuff the first organisms arose from -- but that's just my opinion.

I tend to think there is a reason behind most madness. I still feel she must have done it for a reason. Though I have no idea what that reason is. -o-;

[Reichu]

Originally posted by tv33
I used to see Rei-01 as the nagging doubt in Rei's mind that only presents half truths mixed with fear rather than the ultimate source of truth as you do. Though some of the evidence you present is interesting and making me reconsider my stance.

That's what I'm here for. ;)

The other characters seem to have this false fear presented as truth as well, except they let other characters express their fear rather than a mirror of themselves.

Well, occasionally the other characters were encountered by another incarnation of themselves...

http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughters/snappies/25_shinji-tai-shinji,asuka,misato.jpg

http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughters/snappies/25_shinji-to-shinji.jpg

http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughters/snappies/26_shinji-to-shinji.jpg

http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughters/snappies/26_asuka-to-asuka.jpg

http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughters/snappies/26_misato-to-misato.jpg

Though it's nothing like what Rei goes through. I guess that's what you get for having your existence plagued by quantum magic. ;)

I saw it as rather than a definite fact that if she returned to Lilith she would lose her Rei self, I saw it as a possibility she was afraid of.

Indeed, it did end up being no more than a possibility, as we see what happens in EoE.

But why would she want to reject Rei? The experiences and ties to people she formed as Rei were valuable to her, why throw it away just to become someone she once was? When Rei returned to Lilith and retained her Rei-esqueness, she was getting what she wanted, a return to her old body, while maintaining the self she wanted. She had her cake and ate it too. ;)

And that's Rei's prerogative, I suppose. For some stupid reason, the situation vaguely reminds me of "Total Recall", when Douglas Quaid finds out that he is really a false personality fabricated by his previous self, Hauser, as part of an overelaborate scheme. When Quaid had served his purpose, he was supposed to be reverted to Hauser, but Quaid resists and Hauser never returns. Well, okay, the comparison is a little loose, but my brain likes making bizarre associations. Quaid liked who he was and didn't want to become Hauser (who was a real @$$hole) again, and I guess Rei had similar feelings about herself, regardless of whether or not she was fabricated, as Quaid had been.

Still -- how "fair" is all of this to Lilith? Same soul or not, she was a separate personality from Rei (at least, that's what Rei 1 seemed to be telling us). Could Rei still go back to her primordial self if she wanted to, even after rejecting it?

Shinji made the choices for Instrumentality because he thought the above. After he did it however he saw how it was not the world he imagined, and Rei was kind enough to let him hit the restart button.

But what was in it for Rei by giving him such a choice? What was her motivation for becoming the conductor of Instrumentality? What did she gain from it in the end? Or was it a completely selfless act motivated by a desire to please another person (Shinji)?

Indeed. If Shinji choose to reject Instrumentality and it cost Rei her marshmallow form, it was of littler matter as she still existed as an Uber-soul entity.

Well, we don't really know what happens to other people's souls when they die -- for all we know, they could all be hanging out as wandering ghosts, too, and Rei wouldn't be all that special in that regard. But that bit aside, why would Rei want to be a wandering spirit? As you said, her bonds to other people were so important to her -- and without a body, it's rather hard to establish such connections, ain't it?

I tend to think there is a reason behind most madness. I still feel she must have done it for a reason. Though I have no idea what that reason is. -o-;

Madness? Maybe she just skinned her knee back in the old days, and when the first microorganisms resulted, she was like, "Coooollll... I didn't know I could do that." And then Adam replies, "You think that's cool, baby? Look what I can do", and he makes a bunch of big black cocoons. "Try to beat that." "You think you're such hot stuff, Addy-boy. But just you wait and see. Someday, my microorganisms will evolve into little demon-spawn called Lilim and kick your angel-spawns' arses." "I'll bet twenty grand that you're wrong." "You're on!"

After a couple billion years of waiting, Adam's angels STILL haven't hatched, and Lilith's microorganisms STILL haven't evolved into the demon-spawn she was expecting them to. Adam says, "I'm BORED. I don't know about you, but I'm going to go get some ZZZs. Maybe in another billion years something will actually HAPPEN on this boring rock." "Boring? Your offspring are just sitting around doing nothing, whereas mine have formed an unimaginably complicated biosphere and continue to grow and evolve at an incredible rate! It's fascinating! I could watch this until the sun explodes!" "You do that. But I'm going to sleep."

Lilith sits around for a while, watching her little creatures run around doing their thing, and soon enough Adam's attitude starts to rub off on her. "Damn, he's right -- this IS terribly boring. I guess I'll go to sleep, too."

Hey -- it coulda happened. ;)

[NakedEYE666]

Still -- how "fair" is all of this to Lilith? Same soul or not, she was a separate personality from Rei (at least, that's what Rei 1 seemed to be telling us). Could Rei still go back to her primordial self if she wanted to, even after rejecting it?

Well, I think that's the humanist aspect of it. (Or atleast, I assume) Rei & Kaworu where godly beings, but after living amongst humanity and gaining a little bit of knowledge and love for what humanity was, they chose that existance over their godly one. Granted I know absolutely nothing about anything, but I'd guess that the Lilith that once existed could no longer exist, that existance had been rejected. It's not 'unfair' as much as it is the persuasion of humanity... no?

[tv33]

Originally posted by Reichu

Still -- how "fair" is all of this to Lilith? Same soul or not, she was a separate personality from Rei (at least, that's what Rei 1 seemed to be telling us). Could Rei still go back to her primordial self if she wanted to, even after rejecting it?

Its self determination. Rei is Lilith, so it fair because that is what she choose to become. I am sure my personality has changed since I was, say 5. Is it fair to my 5 year old self that I matured and changed? I could go back to the way I was, my 5 year old Id driven self, but that is not what I want.

Originally posted by Reichu
But what was in it for Rei by giving him such a choice? What was her motivation for becoming the conductor of Instrumentality? What did she gain from it in the end?

Instrumentality was going to happen one way or another, if not by her then by SEELE. She might as well do it her way, being there to add her two cents, and assist Shinji in his choice, even giving him the chance to change his mind. This would lead to the next point...


Originally posted by Reichu
Or was it a completely selfless act motivated by a desire to please another person (Shinji)?

Perhaps, she did care about him. I am sure because it was him it influenced her decision.


Originally posted by Reichu
Well, we don't really know what happens to other people's souls when they die -- for all we know, they could all be hanging out as wandering ghosts, too, and Rei wouldn't be all that special in that regard.

The only reason I think that is because we dont see Kaji (Or anyone else for that matter) appear to Misato.

Originally posted by Reichu
But that bit aside, why would Rei want to be a wandering spirit? As you said, her bonds to other people were so important to her -- and without a body, it's rather hard to establish such connections, ain't it?

Perhaps it goes back to that selfless act thing. And we don’t really know what was going to happen to her, all we can do is guess.

Originally posted by Reichu
Madness? Maybe she just skinned her knee back in the old days, and when the first microorganisms resulted, she was like, "Coooollll... I didn't know I could do that."

Guess I never really thought about it like that. I always assumed it was a conscious choice.

[Dr. Nick]

Once again, a shining example why this forum r0x0rds. Legendary stuff. :cheers:
Originally posted by Reichu
Odd how the animation used for Rei 1 here comes from what is commonly thought to be Armisael taking on Rei 2's image. Does this support the notion that Rei 2 was actually just talking to Rei 1 and not Armisael? Or should we not look that deeply into the recycling of old footage?
Just a coincidence caused by heavy recycling, IMO. We'll have to remember just how bad their situation was when they were animating those episodes.

random Gainax minion: "Sir, we've recycled every usable bit of old animation twice already, but we still need a bit more!"
Anno: "Oh, damnation. BRING ME YOUR DOODLES!"
Originally posted by Fuzzy Chickens
That is VERY open to debate...
In Your Opinion Only, mr. Black Knight of AN. You should realize that your theories, like everybody else's, rotate around the series, and not the other way around. And if you disagree with everybody else on this board, you are most likely the one who is wrong.
Originally posted by Fuzzy Chickens
I ask "Why believe person X over person Y" and you say "because X is right."

Wow. Your reasoning is impressively artight.
And do we really know if Darth truly is Luke's father? He doesn't provide any kind of solid evidence...
(Seriously, though, in fiction some things are meant to be believed. I like the old episodes of the X-files too, but I think "trust no-one" is a bad attitude towards life in general.)
Originally posted by tv33
Instrumentality was going to happen one way or another, if not by her then by SEELE. She might as well do it her way, being there to add her two cents, and assist Shinji in his choice, even giving him the chance to change his mind. This would lead to the next point...
I agree. But did she choose Shinji to be the human element because she thought he would abort the process and give everybody the change to return? Or did she just choose him because he is Shinji, and to hell with the outcome? Could she have chosen someone else? Rei had a serious struggle of her own going on in her mind, but did she care at all about the fate of the humanity?

[tv33]

Originally posted by Dr. Nick
Could she have chosen someone else?

Of course not, Shinji was the main character. ;)

Random Nerv employee: Hey aren’t you that Eva pilot?
Rei: Indeed, and I have chosen you to decide the fate of humanity.
RNE: Why me!?
Rei: Although I don’t know you I imagine I won’t have to put up with as much angst as some else I know.

But seriously, she did care about Shinji, and he was in distress at the moment, so it seemed like a logical choice.

Originally posted by Dr. Nick
Rei had a serious struggle of her own going on in her mind, but did she care at all about the fate of the humanity?

I think she cared about the outcome, she gave Shinji her opinion on that matter (See the part I quoted from EoE), but in the end it was a Lilim's choice for a Lilims future.

[Gundampilotspaz]

And my friends think I over anylize Evangelion. Now I have too tell them I don't anylize it enough.

[Gundampilotspaz]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki


What I want to know is what is the connection with this shot from Ep23'?
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Yesod/EP23'_EVA_dump.jpg

(Reichu gets the credit for that excellent composite of the 'EVA graveyard' scene; Here (http://avians.net/rkc/14daughters/snappies/23npc_kaasan-ga-kieta-tokoro.jpg) is the original)



I've never even see that before thats awesome! It that from renewal? The original was just a bunch of Evangelion scatered over a huge warehouse! Oh My God! Thats awesome!

While everone is talking about deep aspects of the show I'm freaking out over a pretty pciture. :hmph:

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Gundampilotspaz
I've never even see that before thats awesome! It that from renewal? The original was just a bunch of Evangelion scatered over a huge warehouse! Oh My God! Thats awesome!

Not from Renewal -- from the New Production Cut. If you ever see the notation #21', #22', #23', or #24' instead of #21, #22, #23, or #24, that's what it means.

[RahOtaku]

What's all this writing on the walls of the pool? It looks like Greek, and Hebrew, maybe, but I can't really make any sense of it...-Shinshieki-

It's not Greek or Hebrew. The most it resembles is numbers in Japanese... I see eights, ones, two's, etc.

Wow, what a terrific post Reichu. Can you elaborate on Quantum magic?


^_^

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by RahOtaku
It's not Greek or Hebrew. The most it resembles is numbers in Japanese... I see eights, ones, two's, etc.

Wow, what a terrific post Reichu. Can you elaborate on Quantum magic?


^_^ Have you read this thread (http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=112336&highlight=Quantum)?

[RahOtaku]

http://www.rahotaku.com/boomspeed/gendoufloor.jpg

Perhaps quantum mechanics is in Evangelion ^_^

However Gendou's floorplan is not a picture of a bubble chamber.
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Quantum/01.jpg
Particles in a chamber exhibit random spirals that continue till the particle is lost.
Now the floor plan has in the center many separate circles, not of a particle that spirals. There are no spirals occuring at all.

Also all the lines converge on the circle. Thus contradicting with the basis of Quantum theory of pure randomness of particles.

I'm not saying the picture isn't significant. Just that it isn't a picture of quantum particles.

Also I've noticed that There are Circles that all seem to start where Gendou sits. However that's an optical illusion. Instead they at a too sharp an angle for us to see clearly.

However the edge towards us we can see that they are parallel circles.

<sidenote> notice what looks like japanese characters on one of the symetrical circles on the outside.

^_^

The point is that I don't think Quantum theory explains Rei's soul. It never applies.

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by RahOtaku


Perhaps quantum mechanics is in Evangelion ^_^

However Gendou's floorplan is not a picture of a bubble chamber.
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Quantum/01.jpg
Particles in a chamber exhibit random spirals that continue till the particle is lost.
Now the floor plan has in the center many separate circles, not of a particle that spirals. There are no spirals occuring at all.

Also all the lines converge on the circle. Thus contradicting with the basis of Quantum theory of pure randomness of particles.

I'm not saying the picture isn't significant. Just that it isn't a picture of quantum particles.

Also I've noticed that There are Circles that all seem to start where Gendou sits. However that's an optical illusion. Instead they at a too sharp an angle for us to see clearly.

However the edge towards us we can see that they are parallel circles.

<sidenote> notice what looks like japanese characters on one of the symetrical circles on the outside.

^_^

The point is that I don't think Quantum theory explains Rei's soul. It never applies.
Spiral tracks in a bubble chamber image are a consequence of a magnetic field being applied to the chamber. Highly charged particles will spiral left or right, depending on whether they're positively or negatively charged. Particles with weak charges leave arc-like tracks, and neutral particle scatter like billiard balls.

Check out this image of Gendou's office (from Vol 7 of the Manga) and tell me that that doesn't look like a bubble chamber...
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Mis/Diagram.jpg

[RahOtaku]

Wow that's a great pic.

But, those are separate circles, even each line is separately numbered.
Particles don't travel in single circles.
They travel in complete randomness.
Those are simply single circles lying on top of each other.
Those aren't Quantum particles at all.

Quantum particles don't make a full circle and come to a stop.



^_^

[Reichu]

RahOtaku, don't those posts belong on Shin-seiki's Quantum Mechanics thread, not this one? -o-;

I'll respond to some of the (non-Quantum Mechanics) points tonight.

[MDWigs]

Wow Reich that's a fantastic analysis. I particularly like the fact that it's now clear which Rei is saying what, because it certainly does add another dimension of meaning into what is said. The way it seems to be portrayed is that Rei-001 is the instigator of a lot of the discussion. Do you think that this reflects the true personality of Rei-001 as she was in real life (ie before she was killed) or so you think this is a tool Anno and Co have used to differentiate the message they are trying to put across? In other words do you think that Rei-001 in 2010 is as 'aware' of what's going on (having a fake soul etc) as Rei-001 seems to be during this sequence from the ending?

I really like the breakdown and the analysis. The images alongside the dialog really help to capture what is going on. You've done a lot of work on this Reichu and you should be commended for it. Well done!

I've got some other questions and queries about different things, but I haven't got the chance right now to write them up (I'm entering my fourth week on exchange here and I've actually got all this work due!). I do however want to comment on one other thing in particular.

Odd how the animation used for Rei 1 here comes from what is commonly thought to be Armisael taking on Rei 2's image. Does this support the notion that Rei 2 was actually just talking to Rei 1 and not Armisael? Or should we not look that deeply into the recycling of old footage?

I started a thread on AB years ago called "Me Within Eva" referring to Rei's comments in episode 23, and how she might have been making a distinction between herself as a pilot (ie Rei-002 at that point) and herself 'in' the Eva (which I suggested was Rei-001). Of course AB is down at this point (and who knows if it will ever come back) but here is the cached google copy http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cache:tmE0qrwCE4YJ:animeboards. com/showthread/t-38214.html+%22me+within+eva%22&hl=en&start=22&ie=UTF-8 and looking back it's apparent I made a typo and got the episode wrong! ^^ Anyway at the time I thought that her comments meant that she must have been talking to the Angel, specifically because she wasn't talking to "me within Eva". It's an interesting issue and I think we probably should delve into it. Another thread anyone? ^_^

[AchtungAffen]

There are 2 things I have to say:

1) Imperfections of Rei make her perfect

2) Why did you use the 'cultivated soul'? Wasn't the verb used there 'tsukuru'? Of all the analogies:

make; to create; to manufacture; to draw up; to write; to compose; to build; to coin; to cultivate; to organize; to establish; to make up (a face); to trim (a tree); to fabricate; to prepare (food); to commit (sin); to construct

why do you think this is the correct one? Was the context of the RCB wich made you chose that one?

[Reichu]

Originally posted by MDWigs
Wow Reich that's a fantastic analysis. I particularly like the fact that it's now clear which Rei is saying what, because it certainly does add another dimension of meaning into what is said.

Indeed -- it certainly makes things that much less confusing! As soon as I saw that the Reis were differentiated in the script, I became very interested in transcribing it, mostly because, as you said, it adds a whole new level of meaning. I would love to eventually process the ENTIRE script and have the little images to go along, cut-by-cut -- it would certainly take FOREVER, but the opportunities for illumination among us English-speaking nerds could be ground-breaking.

At the moment, though, I'm just focusing on key scenes. :)

The way it seems to be portrayed is that Rei-001 is the instigator of a lot of the discussion. Do you think that this reflects the true personality of Rei-001 as she was in real life (ie before she was killed) or so you think this is a tool Anno and Co have used to differentiate the message they are trying to put across? In other words do you think that Rei-001 in 2010 is as 'aware' of what's going on (having a fake soul etc) as Rei-001 seems to be during this sequence from the ending?

It's probably impossible to say for certain, since we know so very little about Rei-001 (or Rei 1, as she's referred in the script). If I had to guess, though, I think there is a good possibility that she had an awareness of her true self that Rei-002 completely lacked. This idea isn't really grounded on much, but take a look at Kaworu. He knew what he was, and presumably, unlike Rei, he never went through any messy Contact Experiments and post-death soul transferences that might've been responsible for muddling Rei's memory. It's just a thought, anyway.

I've got some other questions and queries about different things, but I haven't got the chance right now to write them up (I'm entering my fourth week on exchange here and I've actually got all this work due!).

Well, whenever you get time, odds are the thread'll still be around. :)

I started a thread on AB years ago called "Me Within Eva" referring to Rei's comments in episode 23, and how she might have been making a distinction between herself as a pilot (ie Rei-002 at that point) and herself 'in' the Eva (which I suggested was Rei-001). ... Anyway at the time I thought that her comments meant that she must have been talking to the Angel, specifically because she wasn't talking to "me within Eva". It's an interesting issue and I think we probably should delve into it. Another thread anyone? ^_^

I wondered about the "me within Eva" and figured that Rei was referring to Rei 1. Rei 2 also seems to imply her knowledge of Rei 1 in #06, when she tells Shinji how she has a bond with EVA-00. Rei 3 is also aware of her previous selves as early as when she is fresh out of the tank, as she says, "I think I'm the third". (That makes me wonder, though, why Rei 3 seems to be surprised to learn about Rei 1 and Rei 2 in #25!) Rei 2 and 3 are evidently aware of Rei 1 (or Rei 1 and 2), but it's not clear how they attain this awareness.

I read the thread you linked to, Wigs -- interesting stuff. It touched upon a few points I'd been wondering about ... but failed to resolve some of them! :bawling: Ah, always room for more discussion.

(BTW, I don't think I've ever read your Soul Imprint theory in full. Do you have a link I could read?)

Originally posted by AchtungAffen
1) Imperfections of Rei make her perfect

:???: What do you mean by that, exactly?

2) Why did you use the 'cultivated soul'? Wasn't the verb used there 'tsukuru'? ... why do you think this is the correct one? Was the context of the RCB wich made you chose that one?

I didn't even look at the theatrical programs when I was throwing my translation together. Honestly, I probably just used "cultivated" to be different. -o-; I give some of the reasons for my choice at http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughters/Rei's%20Case/rei-no-ba'ai.html.

[RahOtaku]

I completely Agree with MDWigs that you've given me insight.

One thing I want to point out is that all of this is happening before Complementation.

There is no Quantum magic.





^_^

[Reichu]

Originally posted by RahOtaku
One thing I want to point out is that all of this is happening before Complementation.

There is no Quantum magic.

:???: Who ever said Quantum Magic was limited to Instrumentality?

[AchtungAffen]

Originally posted by Reichu
:???: What do you mean by that, exactly?

Don't you see my sig? Rei pride!

I didn't even look at the theatrical programs when I was throwing my translation together. Honestly, I probably just used "cultivated" to be different. -o-; I give some of the reasons for my choice at http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughters/Rei's%20Case/rei-no-ba'ai.html.

That makes me wonder... I bet you chose that thinking in Rei having Lilliths soul, or any other NGE reference. So go imagine what happens when someone translates NGE and knows nothing about it, or never discussed it, like ADV (I think). With the multiplicity of meanings every japanese quote may have, without knowing in depth about NGE they can mess up things quite easily

[CuteAnimeGirl]

So go imagine what happens when someone translates NGE and knows nothing about it, or never discussed it, like ADV (I think). With the multiplicity of meanings every japanese quote may have, without knowing in depth about NGE they can mess up things quite easily
-AA-

I'd have to defend Amanda Winn Lee.

She did a Terrific Job~!

Stop the whining!



~_~

:liplick:

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by CuteAnimeGirl
I'd have to defend Amanda Winn Lee.

She did a Terrific Job~!

Stop the whining!



~_~

:liplick: She did an adequate job as as Rei's VA, but her adaptation of the EoE dub script was terrible, and her Audio Commentary (on the EoE DVD), while occasionally amusing, is a font of half-baked theories and outright mis-information...

[CuteAnimeGirl]

EoE's translations are not Puuurfect??? No, So I guess you, you think you can make them purfect huh?

The commentary was Excellent. You just have to get to know her. She's really nice~!

Also she does tell you that you should seek your own answers and that those are only theories.

I hope you didn't think that Gendou actually said to Ritsuko, "I like pudding~!"

~_~

:liplick:

[Reichu]

I would like to keep this thread on-topic. Ergo, lay off the AWL talk, please. I don't even know what prompted you to bring her up in the first place, kyrakasa.

[CuteAnimeGirl]

I'm sorry~! I just thought -AA- was being a bit unfair to Amanda~!

And I love your ideas Reichu`chan~!



~_~

:liplick:

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by Reichu
I would like to keep this thread on-topic. Ergo, lay off the AWL talk, please. I don't even know what prompted you to bring her up in the first place, kyrakasa. Sorry... -o-;
I was so amazed to see someone taking AWL's side, that I went on automatic 'disparage AWL mode'...

[Reichu]

Originally posted by CuteAnimeGirl
I'm sorry~! I just thought -AA- was being a bit unfair to Amanda~!

He didn't even mention her.

Originally posted by AchtungAffen
So go imagine what happens when someone translates NGE and knows nothing about it, or never discussed it, like ADV (I think). With the multiplicity of meanings every japanese quote may have, without knowing in depth about NGE they can mess up things quite easily

He was making a general statement. I thought I understood him perfectly well.

But if AA actually WAS talking about AWL, there are plenty of other threads discussing her follies and arguable merits. Let's keep this thread restricted to thoughtful Rei discussion if we can help it. :puppy eyes:

[CuteAnimeGirl]

why are you being mean to me :bawling:

I thought we were friends, Reichu`chan~!

~_~

:liplick:

[Reichu]

Originally posted by CuteAnimeGirl
why are you being mean to me :bawling:

Erm... If you think I was being "mean", you're either over-sensitive, paranoid, reading way too much into the subtleties of my language, or some strange combination of all three. Or maybe you're just kidding around and I'm taking you too seriously (doesn't seem your style, though).

In any case, I'm not a big fan of melodrama. Yamete kudasai ne.

[thewayneiac]

Originally posted by Reichu
:???: Who ever said Quantum Magic was limited to Instrumentality?

Actually, its easy to demonstrate that it is not limited to instrumentality. Toji has a Quantum Magic experience in Ep. 19, when he has the vision of Rei & Shinji on the train. This must be at least 2 months before Third Impact, if not longer. (Remember that EP. 20 takes up a whole month.)

[thewayneiac]

Reichu: This is a really great post! A suggestion for the next step: Could you check the Japanese script for EP. 14, and see how it describes the Rei that Shinji sees in Unit 000? If it calls her Rei 1 or child Rei, It'll pretty much be "case closed" as to who is in Unit 000.

[Reichu]

Originally posted by thewayneiac
Actually, its easy to demonstrate that it is not limited to instrumentality. Toji has a Quantum Magic experience in Ep. 19, when he has the vision of Rei & Shinji on the train. This must be at least 2 months before Third Impact, if not longer. (Remember that EP. 20 takes up a whole month.)

Well, I'm not even exactly sure what "Quantum Magic" is... I just made the phrase up to designate any phenomena covered by Shin-seiki's Rei/Lilith/Quantum Mechanics theorem. Though I always did wonder what the he11 was going on with Touji in #19 and why that scene was happening. Is he actually seeing something before it happens?

A suggestion for the next step: Could you check the Japanese script for EP. 14, and see how it describes the Rei that Shinji sees in Unit 000? If it calls her Rei 1 or child Rei, It'll pretty much be "case closed" as to who is in Unit 000.

"Unit 000"? :lol: Just two zeros are fine. (And if you want to get technical, she'd be "EVA-00" -- that's how they write it in the OP, anyway.)

Checked the script, and there's nothing too illuminating to be found, unfortunately.

Episode #14 (SEELE, Tamashii no Za), CUT 062B

ROMAJI: Tsumetai egao no REI ga sematte kuru. KATTO shiri ni kowai kao e kawaru

TRANSLATION: A Rei with an icy smile draws near. At the end of the cut, it changes into a frightening/eerie face.

And we know how the rest goes... If there's anything else you want me to check, I'll be glad to do it.

[thewayneiac]

Originally posted by Reichu
Well, I'm not even exactly sure what "Quantum Magic" is... I just made the phrase up to designate any phenomena covered by Shin-seiki's Rei/Lilith/Quantum Mechanics theorem. Though I always did wonder what the he11 was going on with Touji in #19 and why that scene was happening. Is he actually seeing something before it happens?

[b]

"Unit 000"? :lol: Just two zeros are fine. (And if you want to get technical, she'd be "EVA-00" -- that's how they write it in the OP, anyway.)

Checked the script, and there's nothing too illuminating to be found, unfortunately.

Episode #14 (SEELE, Tamashii no Za), CUT 062B

ROMAJI: Tsumetai egao no REI ga sematte kuru. KATTO shiri ni kowai kao e kawaru

TRANSLATION: A Rei with an icy smile draws near. At the end of the cut, it changes into a frightening/eerie face.

And we know how the rest goes... If there's anything else you want me to check, I'll be glad to do it.

Well, darn! I thought I was on to something. Oh well, it was an idea. Thanks for checking.

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Originally posted by Dr. Nick
mr. Black Knight of AN.

It's Black MONARCH, not Black Knight. The Black Knights are my minions. Get it straight.

Originally posted by Dr. Nick
You should realize that your theories, like everybody else's, rotate around the series

Thanks, I try to make them that way.

Originally posted by Dr. Nick
And do we really know if Darth truly is Luke's father? He doesn't provide any kind of solid evidence...

No, he doesn't. But he's not a professional habitual liar like Gendo. Also, Luke later "uses the force" to somehow find out that Vader is telling the truth, and then he has that little chat with Obi-Wan's ghost... Obi-Wan wouldn't lie, would he?

Originally posted by CuteAnimeGirl
[color=deeppink]I'd have to defend Amanda Winn Lee.

She did a Terrific Job~!

You mean her job of deliberately mistranslating lines in EoE (a la "Haven't they ever heard of moderation?" and my favorite "Hit him again!"), or her job of intense non-acting as Rei? Both could have been done better by a trained monkey.

Originally posted by Reichu
Well, occasionally the other characters were encountered by another incarnation of themselves...

That is where you are right.

Originally posted by Reichu
Though it's nothing like what Rei goes through.

That is where you are not.


And that is all I have to say on this subject.

[Incisivis]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Chickens
It's Black MONARCH, not Black Knight. The Black Knights are my minions. Get it straight.

Well, whatever BK you're talking about, I thought Dr. Nick was discussing another one. You have the...persistence of the one I was thinking about. :rolleyes:

[CuteAnimeGirl]

Erm... If you think I was being "mean", you're either over-sensitive, paranoid, reading way too much into the subtleties of my language, or some strange combination of all three.-Reichu-

Maybe I'm either over-sensitive, paranoid, or reading way too much into the subtleties of your language, or somestrange combination of all three. Or maybe you are being mean :bawling:


Actually, its easy to demonstrate that it is not limited to instrumentality. Toji has a Quantum Magic experience in Ep. 19, when he has the vision of Rei & Shinji on the train. This must be at least 2 months before Third Impact, if not longer. (Remember that EP. 20 takes up a whole month.)-Wayniac-

Occam's razor= toji had a dream

~_~

:liplick:

[NakedEYE666]

Let's try to not overuse Occam's Razor, it isn't infallible... and I still remember the time that someone told me that because of Occam's Razor, Rei's hair is white... what a load of crap...

Uh anyway. so Reichu, do you see Rei as subservient still? I guess I should copy my post from that other thread...

[thewayneiac]

Originally posted by CuteAnimeGirl


Occam's razor= toji had a dream

~_~

:liplick:

I can't agree; what Toji sees so closely resembles Instrumentality that, "Toji is seeing instrumentality", is the simple answer and thus satisfies Occam. When you start saying, "No, it was something else.", that is the more complex answer.:rolleyes:

[RahOtaku]

Are you proposing that instrumentality occurs when the 13th angel is destroyed?

^_^

[thewayneiac]

Originally posted by RahOtaku
Are you proposing that instrumentality occurs when the 13th angel is destroyed?

^_^

No, I'm saying that Toji sees a preview of instrumentality through the magic of Quantum Mechanics. Remember, I was supporting Reichu's statement that Quantum Magic is not limited to Instrumentality.

What Shinji undergoes while disolved in EP. 20 is also a Quantum flash forward to Instrumentality.

[Reichu]

Originally posted by thewayneiac
No, I'm saying that Toji sees a preview of instrumentality through the magic of Quantum Mechanics. Remember, I was supporting Reichu's statement that Quantum Magic is not limited to Instrumentality.

Well, the two of us must be thinking completely different things, because the "Quantum Magic" I was referring to was Lilith's soul being in two places at once (whereas during Instrumentality, it is in billions upon billions of places at once). Shin-seiki's Quantum Mechanics thread is where this theoretical explanation for Lilith's soul doing such weird things came from, and, as I said, I just created the shorthand "Quantum Magic" to refer to the whole darn mess.

What Shinji undergoes while disolved in EP. 20 is also a Quantum flash forward to Instrumentality.

Are you sure it's not just him having weird hallucinations of his own accord? If I were floating around in a quantum state for a month I bet I'd start "seeing" weird things, too. ;)

Originally posted by NakedEYE666 in some other thread
...Reichu, do you still think Rei is subserviant? I can definetly understand where anyone who thinks that is coming from, but I would have to disagree. Rei is more than capable of acting on her own will, and I stick by my assessment that everything Rei does was completely her decision to do, and that she was never pressured into doing anything by anyone's authority over her. Face it, Gendou's usually right. Although Rei has little to no respect for her life (though has her human ties grow, this could fade), if Ritsuko said "Hey Rei, go kill Kensuke" I don't think she would say 'hai.' If ever anyone (Gendou & Shinji included.. save maybe Shinji's Insturmentality) told her to do something she did not agree with, I don't think there's a chance that she'd do it.


Well, to answer that question satisfactorily, I'd have to evaluate Rei's behavior throughout the series. Suffice to say, that would take quite a while, so you'll have to wait for an answer to that one. :evil:

[MDWigs]

Ok I'm slack and should have replied far sooner. Sorry.

Reichu:

It's probably impossible to say for certain, since we know so very little about Rei-001 (or Rei 1, as she's referred in the script).

"Rei-001" a hang over from the controller we see in Ritsuko's hand in episode 23. It lists Rei-004, Rei-005, Rei-006 etc, in that manner, so I always took the original Rei's to be named Rei-001, Rei-002, and Rei-003. It's an old habit now, and very hard to break ^_^

If I had to guess, though, I think there is a good possibility that she had an awareness of her true self that Rei-002 completely lacked. This idea isn't really grounded on much, but take a look at Kaworu. He knew what he was, and presumably, unlike Rei, he never went through any messy Contact Experiments and post-death soul transferences that might've been responsible for muddling Rei's memory. It's just a thought, anyway.

I think the other thing to consider is that Rei-001 had existed for five years, whereas Rei-002 may have only existed for a little more than one. Rei-002 showed up in 2014, we don't know exactly what happened in those middle years, but she had aged roughly ten years. Whether or not she was aware for any of those years is up in the air. So Rei-001 could be considered a lot more 'mature' than Rei-002, in that she had a lot more time (as a conscious being) to comptemplate the meaning of her existance (that is also assuming that a five year old is capable of contemplating such things, however Rei-001 did seem like a very precocious kid ^^). So Rei-001 didn't have to go through the trauma of death (well, while she lived of course ^^) and she also had maturity of sorts in the amount of time she had actually existed. Taking these things into consideration I think it's probably that Rei-001 (in 2010) did know she had Lilith's soul, she did know almost everything about her origins and past and thus her role during the ending makes more sense. She is the instigator, she is asking the hard questions, becuase she already knows the answers, and she knew them back when she was alive.

I said I had extra questions, but firstly Reichu, I'd like to ask what it is specifically at this point that you are a little unsure about with what you've written?

I read the thread you linked to, Wigs -- interesting stuff. It touched upon a few points I'd been wondering about ... but failed to resolve some of them! Ah, always room for more discussion.

I might actually be home all this weekend (for the first time since I came over to the UK) so if you want to talk about them, I'll have time to write some comprehensive responses!

(BTW, I don't think I've ever read your Soul Imprint theory in full. Do you have a link I could read?)

It's on animeboards but of course animeboards is down. It's flawed, but at the time explained things well. It was based upon what happened to Kyoto and Eva-02, and the assumption that Kyouko's soul for time must have existed in two places at once, inside her body (for if it wasn't it shouldn't have maintained physical form) and also in Eva-02. The idea being that as the contact experiment couldn't have taken Kyouko's soul wholly and put it into Eva-02 (because that would have resulted in the loss of her physical form) something else must have happened. This idea also developed from the question, "What were they trying to achieve with the contact experiment with Eva-02?" and even prior to that, "What were they trying to achieve with Yui and Eva-01". To everyone else, Yui being absorbed into Eva-01 was seen as an 'accident', so what were they trying to achieve? And when it came to Kyouko, Yui had already been absorbed, they knew that, so what were they trying to achieve? They needed a way to control the Evas, so putting a soul into them at that point may have seemed a good way, however getting a person totally absorbed was not the main point, so perhaps they devised a method to imbue a soul into an Eva, without losing physical form. They tried it out with Kyouko and Eva-02, it worked, but there were side effects (most notable mental instability). "Imprint" is just a name used to describe this other "method", this reason for the contact experiment.

And there it is in short. The Rei-001 in Eva-00 application of the imprint theory only came afterwards, but it seemed to fit it rather well (living test subject, resulted in apparently mental instability (Rei-001 at the end didn't seem 'normal' and Rei-002 is said to be mentally unstable). I haven't had a good think about it in a while actually, but I remember there being a whole lot of problems with it, but it seemed like the best explanation out there to fit everything together.

Anyway I don't want to derail this great thread of anything ^_^

[AchtungAffen]

@MDWigs

Why do you say Rei 001 existed far longer than Rei 002? Are you saying that between Rei-001's death and the creation of Rei-002 almost 3 years passed? Why wouldn't they rebuild her instantly? I mean, she must have been around (Rei-002) at least for 1 year before 2015, as Shinji's schoolmates knew her when they were on first year, and in 2015 they're on 2nd year.

[NakedEYE666]

Originally posted by Reichu

Well, to answer that question satisfactorily, I'd have to evaluate Rei's behavior throughout the series. Suffice to say, that would take quite a while, so you'll have to wait for an answer to that one. :evil:

Oh, ok... I'd like to do that more systematically myself...

[Fuzzy Chickens]

It is stated explicitly that only 14-year-olds are capable of piloting Evas. If Rei is a pilot and all pilots must be 14 years old, how can Rei not be 14 years old?

[AchtungAffen]

How can Asuka be 13 years old until the end of 2015?

[Fuzzy Chickens]

If she's 14 when we first see her in episode 08, and if less than a year passes between that episode and the movie, then what's the bloody problem?

[AchtungAffen]

She's not 14 when we first see her, because that was mid or beginning 2015.

[MDWigs]

AchtungAffen

Why do you say Rei 001 existed far longer than Rei 002? Are you saying that between Rei-001's death and the creation of Rei-002 almost 3 years passed? Why wouldn't they rebuild her instantly? I mean, she must have been around (Rei-002) at least for 1 year before 2015, as Shinji's schoolmates knew her when they were on first year, and in 2015 they're on 2nd year.

The D&R theatrical program timeline states that, "[2014]. Rei Ayanami (the 2nd) transfers to the New Tokyo-3 1st Municipal Junior High".

Why didn't she show up again instantly? If they were going to use her as a test pilot, then it would make sense to get the most testing done with her as early as possible. However she still only showed up (in her then 13 year old form) in 2014. We are never told what occurs during that gap, the time between Rei-001's death in 2010 and Rei-002's appearance in 2014 is never accounted for.

Fuzzy Chickens

It is stated explicitly that only 14-year-olds are capable of piloting Evas. If Rei is a pilot and all pilots must be 14 years old, how can Rei not be 14 years old?

It is stated, but it doesn't actually hold true. Asuka was born on December 4th, so when the series began she would only be 13. Meanwhile Kaoru was born on the day of the second impact, so when we see him in 2015 he would be 15. Rei was only created in 2005, so she can only be at most 10 years old in 2015 (though she may appear to have the body of a 14 year old) The 14 doesn't really matter.

[NakedEYE666]

Maybe the entry plug cockpit is built for the general build of a 14 year old, and thus you have Asuka, Rei, Shinji, & Kaworu (& Touji)

[AchtungAffen]

Originally posted by MDWigs

The D&R theatrical program timeline states that, "[2014]. Rei Ayanami (the 2nd) transfers to the New Tokyo-3 1st Municipal Junior High".

Why didn't she show up again instantly? If they were going to use her as a test pilot, then it would make sense to get the most testing done with her as early as possible. However she still only showed up (in her then 13 year old form) in 2014. We are never told what occurs during that gap, the time between Rei-001's death in 2010 and Rei-002's appearance in 2014 is never accounted for.

But thinking like that I could say that Rei-001 was created on 2010, as we know nothing exact about when she was created. She was created from the salvaged remains of Yui after she was taken into the Eva, but that creation might have happened on 2005 or 2009 as far as we know.

If we're going to say then that Rei 001 was created fast after Yui's death, following logics, it would be most logical that Rei-002 was created right away from Rei-001 death's, for the sake of testing and socializing Rei.

[thewayneiac]

Originally posted by Reichu
Well, the two of us must be thinking completely different things, because the "Quantum Magic" I was referring to was Lilith's soul being in two places at once (whereas during Instrumentality, it is in billions upon billions of places at once). Shin-seiki's Quantum Mechanics thread is where this theoretical explanation for Lilith's soul doing such weird things came from, and, as I said, I just created the shorthand "Quantum Magic" to refer to the whole darn mess.

The ability of sub-atomic particles to be in more than one place at a time is only one of the aspects of Quantum Mechanics that Shin-Seiki mentions. Another aspect is that effects can come before their causes, demonstrating that time has no meaning at the quantum level. This allows Rei III to appear to Shinji in Ep. 1, even though she doesn't even have a soul yet, and allows Touji to experience Instrumentality before it happens.



Are you sure it's not just him having weird hallucinations of his own accord? If I were floating around in a quantum state for a month I bet I'd start "seeing" weird things, too. ;)

No, that doesn't seem to work; all of those references to "becoming one" can only be referring to Instrumentality.

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Originally posted by MDWigs
It is stated, but it doesn't actually hold true. Asuka was born on December 4th, so when the series began she would only be 13. Meanwhile Kaoru was born on the day of the second impact, so when we see him in 2015 he would be 15.

Without knowing when each episode takes place, how can you calculate the ages?

[AchtungAffen]

Some episodes do contain date tips. There's a good analysis on this @ the EvaML FAQ, now available at evangelion.ca . Check it out.

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Linky?

[AchtungAffen]

http://www.evangelion.ca/evamlfaq.html

[MDWigs]

AchtungAffen:

But thinking like that I could say that Rei-001 was created on 2010, as we know nothing exact about when she was created. She was created from the salvaged remains of Yui after she was taken into the Eva, but that creation might have happened on 2005 or 2009 as far as we know.

We know it took place in 2005 becuase we are told in the Encyclopedia of Eva III that Rei-001 is 5 when she is killed in 2010. The salvage operation attempt on Yui also took place in 2005. Those years are not unaccounted for, Rei existed for the time (and apprently used it to 'grow up').

If we're going to say then that Rei 001 was created fast after Yui's death, following logics, it would be most logical that Rei-002 was created right away from Rei-001 death's, for the sake of testing and socializing Rei.

They are different situations in my opinion. I think Rei was created as a result of the attempt to salvage Yui from Eva-01. If Rei-002 was recreated straight away why didn't tests start straight away?

FC:

Without knowing when each episode takes place, how can you calculate the ages?

You can figure out the timing somewhat, eg in episode 09 we see that it is August on the calender. You also didn't make any comment about Kaoru's age?

[AchtungAffen]

Originally posted by MDWigs
We know it took place in 2005 becuase we are told in the Encyclopedia of Eva III that Rei-001 is 5 when she is killed in 2010. The salvage operation attempt on Yui also took place in 2005. Those years are not unaccounted for, Rei existed for the time (and apprently used it to 'grow up').

You don't mean the Italian NGE encyclopedia, right?

They are different situations in my opinion. I think Rei was created as a result of the attempt to salvage Yui from Eva-01. If Rei-002 was recreated straight away why didn't tests start straight away?

I used to think that Rei was a direct result of the salvage process with Yui, but I had to change my mind because of Naoko. If Rei was made directly from a failure on the salvage process, then Naoko would have known, as she participated on the first salvage experiment. Now I think that the salvage experiment gave Gendou the idea of controlling the soul that was later going to be invested on Lillith (As keel says on that never added scene), and after he decides to become a God after Yui's death, he created Rei in secrecy. That's why Naoko suspected but knew nothing exactly until she strangled Rei.

[Reichu]

Originally posted by MDWigs
I said I had extra questions, but firstly Reichu, I'd like to ask what it is specifically at this point that you are a little unsure about with what you've written?

Oh bloody hell... I think by now I've forgotten, and I'd have to wade through the thread again to refresh my memory. But, just drawing from what's in my brain right now, I do recall that I'm still thoroughly confused about the aspects of Rei that seem to contradict themselves, and these might have resulted in some of the aforementioned uncertainties.

1) Rei 2 desired death. She lacked any concept of self-worth whatsoever and acted selflessly: Rei said that she would kill herself if Ikari-shirei asked her to, she protected EVA-01 from Ramiel's heat ray at EVA-00's expense, she offered to take Asuka's place in the dangerous Sandalphon mission, she proposed to be the defense in Asuka's Matarael operation, she launched a kamikaze attack on Zeruel (that ultimately didn't even scratch him, but I guess she wasn't counting on that) and seemed disappointed that she was alive afterwards, and ultimately she vaporized EVA-00 and got herself deep-fried for Shinji's sake. Rei 3's lines in #25 made her out to be the same way: "I am one who desires death. All I need is despair. I want to return to nothing". She seems rather masochistic or autonihilistic, no?

If Rei 3 wants to "return to nothing", how can she be, at the same time, afraid of disappearing and her present self becoming nothing? Rei 2 seemed similarly contradictory -- she placed great value on her bonds with others, yet through death (her ultimate desire) those bonds would be eradicated. (Or was she counting on her next incarnation to continue those bonds?) I'm very confused. How could Rei 3 want to "return to nothing", and then later forsake Lilith's original form (an indication that her Lilim form means something to her and that she really DOESN'T want to disappear)?

2) I'll just quote my original post(s) here.

Rei 3 "Although I've been longing for that day...
Now I fear it"

Why has Rei been longing for her abandonment? And, conversely, why does she now fear it...?

3) I'm not sure if this applies to the idea of self-contradiction, but I've been wondering about the two times that Rei sees Gendou in her mind in two Shinji-heavy instances. The first is #06, after Shinji inadvertently emulates his pa-pa when he opens up Rei's entry plug and smiles goofily at her. Before Rei decides to flash a goofy smile back, she sees GENDOU smiling at her in Shinji's place.

The second time is right before Rei 2's death (a death she commits for Shinji's sake, more or less -- destroying the angels "benefits" all humanity, in a sense, but she was specifically sacrificing EVA-00 and herself to protect Shinji from Armisael): She turns away from the switch that activated EVA-00's self-destruct sequence, she sees Gendou smiling at her, she sheds her final tears, and kablooey. Why Gendou? By then, she's bonded to Shinji to the point that her "heart wants to be with" him, but she destroys herself selflessly out of her love for him. So why is Gendou the last thing she sees? And why is Gendou the thing that she saw before she made the first important step towards bonding with Shinji, back in #06?

Some discussion fodder, in any case. (I'll have to look back over the animeboards discussion to remember what points I wanted to address there. My memory can be awfully dodgy sometimes.)

BTW, AchtungAffen -- where did you get the idea that Naoko was involved in the Yui salvage? Maybe I missed something, but I don't remember anything about that.

[AchtungAffen]

@ Reichu

I take Naoko being on the salvage process because of what Ritsuko says on ep. 20

Maya: Creating the outline of the salvage project in just one month. Only
Senpai could do it.

Ritsuko: What a shame that I didn't create the original plan. These are
data which came from experiments done 10 years ago.

Maya: Did such an accident happen during the development of Eva?

Ritsuko: There was an accident before I joined Nerv. I heard that my
mother was there. I know about it only from the data.

Maya: What was the result?

Ritsuko: They failed, I heard.

[Reichu]

So Ritsuko basically says that Naoko was present for the accident (as we already know) -- not that she was involved in the subsequent salvage attempt.

[tv33]

Originally posted by Reichu
Why Gendou? By then, she's bonded to Shinji to the point that her "heart wants to be with" him, but she destroys herself selflessly out of her love for him. So why is Gendou the last thing she sees?

Firstly I think she still liked Gendo, even at that point, even if it was not as much as Shinji. Second, I don’t think Rei 2 could (For last of a batter word) escape Gendo. She just couldn’t forget about him. Remember in EoE, what does Rei 2 do when Gendo turns into a snack for Unit-01? She picks up his glasses, and holds them fondly as she did his other pair.


Originally posted by Reichu
And why is Gendou the thing that she saw before she made the first important step towards bonding with Shinji, back in #06?

At that point I think she was infatuated with Gendo more than at any other point in the show, and her seeing Gendo represents that, in the same way Gendo was concerned about Rei, Shinji was as well. And that parallel to someone she already cares about helped her over the hump to form feelings about Shinji.



And as for her contradiction of wanting to die, yet valuing her bonds with other, its not unusual as a character in Eva. Asuka wanted to be loved, yet didn’t want to rely on anyone, this contradiction drives her mad. Shinji desperately wants people accept him, yet at the same time he want to be left alone to wallow in self pity because he feels they will betray him in the end. Misato loves Kaji because he is like her father that she hates. See where I am going with this? The characters have to wrestle with these contradictions.

[AchtungAffen]

Originally posted by Reichu
So Ritsuko basically says that Naoko was present for the accident (as we already know) -- not that she was involved in the subsequent salvage attempt.

Considering Shinji's salvage process, I think they'd do it right away. They wouldn't wait 1 year to salvage Yui, but they would be investigating how to retrieve her right after she was taken. And considering Naoko was present during contact, its presumable she had something to do with the Evas, not just the MAGI development. So, as one of the central figures, it also would be reasonable for her to participate during salvage.

Just by knowing Naoko was present at the accident, it gives the chance she was present or participated during salvage. The dialogue could hint that, while there's nothing to deny it.

Besides, if Gendou changed plans after Yui's 'death', deciding to become a God, and Yuis salvage started right away, then Rei creation would have to happen only after Gendou decides on his new plan, by the time where probably Yuis salvage process was aborted and she was considered "dead".

[CuteAnimeGirl]

Rei-01 was created by Gendou sometime in 2005 just like MDWigs said~!

Now if we only had a picture of a one year old Chibi Rei~!

~_~

[Fuzzy Chickens]

The website that the link pointed to had this info:

"December 4 2001
Soryu Asuka Langley Zeppelin born"

That's kind of interesting, considering that there is no character named "Soryu Asuka Langley Zeppelin". Zeppelin is not a part of Asuka's name. This is why FAQs are not to be trusted.

Also, I couldn't find any quotes from Anno regarding canon overrides.

[AchtungAffen]

It depends on the countries laws. On some countries the name of the mother is added at the end.

What do you mean by canon overrides?

Besides Asuka's age isn't something exclusive from that FAQ, its logics. If she was born in 2000 she wouldn't be in 2nd year.

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Originally posted by AchtungAffen
It depends on the countries laws. On some countries the name of the mother is added at the end.

So? Asuka's name is NEVER shown with "Zeppelin" in it. The "Asuka" "Langley" and "Soryu" parts of her name are mentioned many times.

Originally posted by AchtungAffen
What do you mean by canon overrides?

Someone said that in the event of a contradiction, the DC episodes overrode the originally aired episodes.

Originally posted by AchtungAffen
If she was born in 2000 she wouldn't be in 2nd year.

:???: :???:

[AchtungAffen]

Considering the name of Kyouko was Zeppelin, it wouldn't be wrong to add that lastname to Asukas own long name. Still the EVAMLFAQ is a piece of fanwork. It doesn't have to be that flawless. Besides, did you see the length of that doc? Some error had to come up. Cannon material much shorter than that contained errors.

Someone said that in the event of a contradiction, the DC episodes overrode the originally aired episodes.

Are there any?

2nd year means 2nd year of that high school they attend to.

[Reichu]

Originally posted by AchtungAffen
Considering the name of Kyouko was Zeppelin, it wouldn't be wrong to add that lastname to Asukas own long name.

Kyoko had two surnames: Sohryuu (dumped, Japanese-style, at the beginning of her name) and Zeppelin (European-style, placed after her given). Evidently Kyoko and Herr Langley decided to continue the tradition and give Asuka Kyoko's Japanese surname along with her daddy's European one. Asuka has two surnames; she doesn't need another one. ;)

Still the EVAMLFAQ is a piece of fanwork. It doesn't have to be that flawless. Besides, did you see the length of that doc? Some error had to come up.

But, you know, due to the easily updateable nature of HTML, nothing's stopped the webmasters from fixing the typo. Printed materials, on the other hand, are somewhat more difficult to fix; the best you can do is print a list of errata somewhere else or publish a new volume that corrects the typos.

And... hey, aren't we supposed to be talking about Rei?

Originally posted by tv33
She picks up his glasses, and holds them fondly as she did his other pair.

Well, the scene cut away pretty quickly after that. For all we know, Rei 2 could have flashed an evil smirk and crushed Gendou's tinted glasses in good Rei 3 style. ;)

And, hey... I just looked at EoE again, and Rei 2 looks a little ... different from what I remember.

http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughters/baka-na/m26_rei2_evil.jpg

And that parallel to someone she already cares about helped her over the hump to form feelings about Shinji.

Erm... interesting choice of words (http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughters/snappies/m26_rei,shinji_straddle.jpg). -o-;

And as for her contradiction of wanting to die, yet valuing her bonds with other, its not unusual as a character in Eva. <snip>

Ah, very astute, very astute. :nod-nod: For some reason, though, I find the "emotional dilemmas" of the other characters somewhat easier to understand, at least from some sort of fux0red-up psychological perspective. (And I can at least partially relate to some of the characters' problems, like Shinji's -- though, needless to say, I'm somewhat better off due to counseling, medication, a stable and loving family situation, and my own volition.) Rei is a superbeing who has become painfully human, so shouldn't I be able to relate to her on a human level? What's wrong with me?!?

[tv33]

Originally posted by Reichu
And, hey... I just looked at EoE again, and Rei 2 looks a little ... different from what I remember.

Another doctored image to confuse people. ;)

And that’s a freaky smirk. :dodgy:


Originally posted by Reichu
Erm... interesting choice of words (http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughters/snappies/m26_rei,shinji_straddle.jpg). -o-;

I should have seen that coming. :dizzy:

Originally posted by Reichu
Rei is a superbeing who has become painfully human, so shouldn't I be able to relate to her on a human level? What's wrong with me?!?

I think Rei's action and thoughts are hard to understand. I think it stems from the odd inescapable feeling that there is something not quite right about her existence, I think that really eats away at her. And in addition to that, as we know a big part of Eva is loneliness, and in my opinion Rei is more alone than any other character. She has never had a family, and at lest Shinji, Asuka and Mistao all lives together, giving them human interaction. But she was shut up in her run down apartment alone (And with no TV!) for hours on end; I think that would be very negative, and damaging to anyone.

[NakedEYE666]

Originally posted by tv33
Another doctored image to confuse people. ;)

And that’s a freaky smirk. :dodgy:




I should have seen that coming. :dizzy:



I think Rei's action and thoughts are hard to understand. I think it stems from the odd inescapable feeling that there is something not quite right about her existence, I think that really eats away at her. And in addition to that, as we know a big part of Eva is loneliness, and in my opinion Rei is more alone than any other character. She has never had a family, and at lest Shinji, Asuka and Mistao all lives together, giving them human interaction. But she was shut up in her run down apartment alone (And with no TV!) for hours on end; I think that would be very negative, and damaging to anyone.

And even worse, in the manga Shinji starts rubbing that party that they had in her face... so selfish... though I have my suscpicions that manga-Rei has a secret TV in that room of hers.... (trails off mumbling incoherently about nonesense)

Uhhh anyway, I have nothing I can add, as usual. But Rei truly is God... in a godly kind of way. She's also quite human, and very flawed. But uh, who's to say God isn't uhh like that? It's interesting to see how Rei is portrayed in different posters...

That doctored image was pretty interesting ;)

I'll be leaving now....

[Reichu]

Originally posted by tv33
Another doctored image to confuse people. ;)

That's what I'm here for. ^_^

I think Rei's action and thoughts are hard to understand. I think it stems from the odd inescapable feeling that there is something not quite right about her existence, I think that really eats away at her. <snip>

Well, that's because her existence is trixty! False! Gollum! Gollum! ... :| ... Anyway, like I said, I guess if you're living a lie like Rei is, that would be a pretty natural feeling to have. Although I think if I was in her place, I'd forsake my mortal life, turn back into a giant marshmallow woman, and wreck havok upon the foul insects that f*cked me up!! But, then, that's just me...

And in addition to that, as we know a big part of Eva is loneliness, and in my opinion Rei is more alone than any other character. She has never had a family, and at lest Shinji, Asuka and Mistao all lives together, giving them human interaction. But she was shut up in her run down apartment alone (And with no TV!) for hours on end; I think that would be very negative, and damaging to anyone.

Bah, who needs a TV when you have a computer? But Rei doesn't have that either... At least she's got books -- lots of books! And, heck, arguably books are a lot better for you than the stuff most of today's youth waste their time with. So what's Rei missing out on?

But, yeah, she does have a pretty desolate lifestyle going on -- though it's true that ultimately YOU'RE the one responsible for yourself. If you're not happy, you're the only person who can fix it. So if Rei's so lonely, maybe living in a ghetto apartment with a blood-covered pillow isn't the best idea in the world. (Heck, when did Gendou approve of the idea of letting his blue-haired puppet live in such a deplorable place to begin with? I guess Men in Black are always nearby to make sure she doesn't get gang-banged by thugs or something, but still...) Why doesn't she live with Gendou or something? (Is he too busy doing nasty things with Ritsuko whenever Rei isn't around?)

Originally posted by NakedEYE666
(trails off mumbling incoherently about nonesense)

I can relate to that. ;)

But Rei truly is God... in a godly kind of way.

Well, she's the progenitor of Terran life dumped into a body that's not her own. Is that the same thing?

She's also quite human, and very flawed.

Aren't we all?

It's interesting to see how Rei is portrayed in different posters...

It's even more interesting to see how Rei is portrayed in different doujinshi. :naughty: Not that I get anything but nervous chuckles out of such things. Ya'll should know by now that nobody makes the kind of NGE doujinshi I dig. :bawling:

That doctored image was pretty interesting ;)

Most of them are. :D

[tv33]

Originally posted by Reichu

Bah, who needs a TV when you have a computer?

Good point, though my computer is my TV. ;)

Originally posted by Reichu
At least she's got books -- lots of books! And, heck, arguably books are a lot better for you than the stuff most of today's youth waste their time with. So what's Rei missing out on?

Rei only had a few school books; I don’t think Gendo would want her to read much else.

Originally posted by Reichu
But, yeah, she does have a pretty desolate lifestyle going on -- though it's true that ultimately YOU'RE the one responsible for yourself. If you're not happy, you're the only person who can fix it.

She's 14! And under the control of a super evil, secret organization. She can’t exactly pack up her bags and leave.


Originally posted by Reichu
(Heck, when did Gendou approve of the idea of letting his blue-haired puppet live in such a deplorable place to begin with? I guess Men in Black are always nearby to make sure she doesn't get gang-banged by thugs or something, but still...)

I think its just another level of control.

Besides this is Gendo we are talking about.

Mistao: How can you have Rei live in such a place, it inhuman!

Gnedo: Whaaaa? It’s got everything you could want! A bed, a floor, a ceiling. What else would you need?

[Reichu]

Originally posted by tv33
Rei only had a few school books; I don’t think Gendo would want her to read much else.

So you think the rest of her class is reading about genetics in German? ;)

Shinji: So you couldn't read the kanji in our physics test? Hah! Look who sucks now, Asuka.
Asuka: Don't run crying to me for help when you see the genetics textbooks that old geezer ordered. Baka-Shinji!

She's 14! And under the control of a super evil, secret organization. She can’t exactly pack up her bags and leave.

Well, the "14" bit isn't really true, but you already know that, so I'll shut up. While she can't really leave, she could at least make the best of a bad situation. Well, unless Gendou explicitly told Rei, "Rei, you will live in a desolate apartment and have a miserable, empty life in which I will be your sole source of interpersonal warmth. Understood?" and she replied, in her typical manner, with "Hai".

Misato: How can you have Rei live in such a place, it's inhuman!

Gnedo: Whaaaa? It’s got everything you could want! A bed, a floor, a ceiling. What else would you need?

:lol: :lol:

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by tv33
I think Rei's action and thoughts are hard to understand. I think it stems from the odd inescapable feeling that there is something not quite right about her existence, I think that really eats away at her. And in addition to that, as we know a big part of Eva is loneliness, and in my opinion Rei is more alone than any other character... Good point! I've always thought that Rei, tho she didn't know the truth of who and what she was, was certainly haunted by a vague awareness that her very existence was unnatural, and that was part of why her behavior was so atypical for a girl of fourteen; human emotions and social interactions were alien to the core of her being...

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Originally posted by Reichu
Why doesn't she live with Gendou or something? (Is he too busy doing nasty things with Ritsuko whenever Rei isn't around?)

Yeah, pretty much.

Originally posted by Reichu
Well, the "14" bit isn't really true

Well, actually it is, but...

Originally posted by Reichu
While she can't really leave, she could at least make the best of a bad situation. Well, unless Gendou explicitly told Rei, "Rei, you will live in a desolate apartment and have a miserable, empty life in which I will be your sole source of interpersonal warmth. Understood?" and she replied, in her typical manner, with "Hai".

It's more likely that she doesn't have a salary and NERV can't spare a lot of cash for her living conditions. Shinji and Asuka had Misato to pay their rent; Rei had nobody to do her such a favor.

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
I've always thought that Rei, tho she didn't know the truth of who and what she was, was certainly haunted by a vague awareness that her very existence was unnatural, and that was part of why her behavior was so atypical for a girl of fourteen; human emotions and social interactions were alien to the core of her being...

Or maybe it's because she spent most of her life with the Ice King as her legal guardian and mentor, who cared for her physical but not emotional well-being. Occam's Razor and whatnot.

[NakedEYE666]

I guess Men in Black are always nearby to make sure she doesn't get gang-banged by thugs or something, but still...) Why doesn't she live with Gendou or something? (Is he too busy doing nasty things with Ritsuko whenever Rei isn't around?)

Ah geeze.... I just glanced over that line the first time I read it, but then I was thinking randomly today and my thoughts trayed to tv33's joke and then inevitably to that :bawling: :bawling:

... And I swear that line about Ristuko was added in later on, unless I just blacked it out of my memory or something.

Anyway I don't think Gendou wants to have anyone live with him, even Rei. There are a plethora of reasons I supose, maybe Gendou fears it would move him emotionally somehow (not likely) or she's simply get in the way of the stuff that Gendou has to do, plus I'm sure Gendou's... well where does he live anyway? Whatever it is I'm sure it's full of secrets that he'd rather not be revealed.

As for Rei's room, the salary thing is a good point. But, if Nerv has money to pay Men In Black to stand around 24/7... (actually the very first time I saw Evangelion I thought Rei had lived in Nerv... don't they have any rooms? Actually it may have lasted a lot longer than just the first time I saw it.) I guess being raised by Gendou would make anyone desolate... I mean it's not like Shinji has posters up in his room or anything. I think Asuka's the only one that watches TV, and she's conveniently the one without the Gendou influence. Sure he's got his music, but his old teacher probably got him into that.

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by tv33
Besides this is Gendo we are talking about.

Mistao: How can you have Rei live in such a place, it inhuman!

Gnedo: Whaaaa? It’s got everything you could want! A bed, a floor, a ceiling. What else would you need? Hey, that's more than he thinks Shinji's worth; he has to settle for just a floor! (http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Mis/Ep26_Restriction.jpg)

[Incisivis]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
Hey, that's more than he thinks Shinji's worth; he has to settle for just a floor! (http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Mis/Ep26_Restriction.jpg)

A-ha-ha, the almightly Sketch Void! :D Can I take this and make an avatar out of it? :)

[Reichu]

Originally posted by NakedEYE666
... And I swear that line about Ristuko was added in later on, unless I just blacked it out of my memory or something.

Honestly, I can't remember... I use the "edit post" function to an almost compulsive degree.

well where does he live anyway? Whatever it is I'm sure it's full of secrets that he'd rather not be revealed.

Maybe if he pushes a button on his desk, Gendou's office turns into an Austin Powers-style Shag-arific Suite (or what have you).

Ritsuko: Reporting to your office as ordered, Ikari-shirei.
Gendou: (presses button; strobe light comes on, 70's music starts playing, and a queen-sized revolving bed pops out of the floor) Yeah, baby, yeah! Shall we shag now or shall we shag later?
Ritsuko: (starts stripping) :sigh: Let's just get it over with...
Gendou: G-rooovy baby!

Sure he's got his music, but his old teacher probably got him into that.

You think?

Shinji's sensei: Hey, Shin-chan. Since you're starting to play the cello, maybe you ought to listen to some of those classical music CDs I have.
Shinji: Erm, okay... Whatever... I have no will of my own.
Sensei: Atta boy.
(Shinji looks through some of sensei's CDs)
Shinji: Let's see... Pachelbel, Beethoven, Bach, Handel, Verdi, and... Masami Okui? "Lilia"? Oh well, who am I to argue?

Uh-oh... I've started to deconstruct my own well-intended thread, this isn't good! Shin-seiki, we need you and that reply I've been slobbering in anticipation of! ;)

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by Incisivis
A-ha-ha, the almightly Sketch Void! :D Can I take this and make an avatar out of it? :) Help yourself; I think this one (http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Mis/Ep26_World_of_Freedom.jpg) is better, myself...

[AchtungAffen]

Doesn't that awfully look like the drawings wich came in St. Exuperi's "The little prince" (or whatever the english title is...)

[Incisivis]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
Help yourself; I think this one (http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Mis/Ep26_World_of_Freedom.jpg) is better, myself...

Yes. Yes it is. Thank you. :)

[NakedEYE666]

I swear one of these days I'll get around to reading the whole case uninterrupted. The first time I tried my Dad's friend came and wanted to download Moody Blues songs :D

This time I was going to read it all but I got to about the 2nd frame and had a thought. So now I have to ask a question, you'll probably think me a pervert for asking but - which breast does Shinji put his hand on in ep. 5? I noticed that when Rei III asked who she was, aparently that scene showed up, which coincides with my theory about Rei's defiance of Gendou = that when he put his hand through her breast it trigged the memory of the Shinji incident from Rei II's past, which in turn triggered rememberence of the other important events between Rei & Shinji and thus Rei realized that Gendou < Shinji. Of course that is far underdeveloped compared to this behemoth of analysis (that I WILL read sometime....) so it's probably got holes or something. If it is the same breast that is touched, that would strengthen my hypothesis, but if it isn't I supose it could still work, since Rei's never touched anyway, I guess it could still be the trigger.

BTW that site that I assume you made with the translation and everything is very cool, when I finally get around to analyzing Rei myself, I bet it'll be very useful. ;)

[HeWhoPostsStuff]

I can't say I remember 100 percent, but if memory serves me right, I think that the, er, mammary gland in question during the "would you please get off?" incident was the left one, but Gendo fused his hand with her via her right one. That's just off the top of my head though...

[NakedEYE666]

Yeah, I don't know. I get all of my EoE information from music videos. I recall the Shinji happening as being a view from Rei's side, so it would have had to have been the left I supose. As for Gendou... I've seen conflicting things in videos. The one image I have looks like his hand is going actually in the center of Rei's chest, I remebmer in a video seeing something more distinct. Well regardless I think what I said could still work.

[Fuzzy Chickens]

They were different breasts.

[Reichu]

:spam: This thread has gotten marvelously off-topic.

[NakedEYE666]

Originally posted by Reichu
:spam: This thread has gotten marvelously off-topic.

I was talking about Rei!

:D

[HeWhoPostsStuff]

Or, at least, two of Rei's ever-popular constant companions. -o-;

[NakedEYE666]

Originally posted by HeWhoPostsStuff
Or, at least, two of Rei's ever-popular constant companions. -o-;

:lol:

Them too.... but I was talking about Rei, in a round about way... or atleast that's how I remember it.

[HeWhoPostsStuff]

In a "round about" way...that's too rich. :lol:

[Reichu]

First off -- my computer is finally up and running again! :does a little jig:

Second... If we're going to discuss Rei's mammaries, we might as well go all the way and throw a Shin-seiki slide presentation together! Heck, he managed to do one on Asuka... (I can dig up the link for this if Stuff Man is interested. :P)

BTW, HWPS, I'm assuming you finally DID read this thread? Come on, tell me how illuminating it was! :D

[HeWhoPostsStuff]

Heh, indeed, I did read this thread, a few days back...holy crow, my head still hurts...some nice insight in there though, I actually referred to it in passing in my Kaworu thread (which, I'm sure, you're raring to dismantle, heh). As for the slide show, whatever that is, I'll pass. :D

[Reichu]

Originally posted by HeWhoPostsStuff
As for the slide show, whatever that is, I'll pass. :D

Wha? You no like boobies?! What kind of man are you? ;)

[HeWhoPostsStuff]

The kind of man that all women say they want, before they end up paired up with some obsessive, perverted jerk, who's "really not bad once you get to know him." :P

[Reichu]

Originally posted by HeWhoPostsStuff
The kind of man that all women say they want, before they end up paired up with some obsessive, perverted jerk, who's "really not bad once you get to know him." :P

Well, I'm sure not going to end up with some obsessive, perverted jerk if I can help it! I'd better snag you before someone else does. How does an Evangelion-themed wedding sound, Huggy? :maniacal laughter:

...

Hmm, if I'm going to have ANY hopes of getting you over here (to thoroughly corrupt you, of course!), I'd better stop talking like that... :D

http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughters/anf-avatar_sammael.jpg "Forgive the poor lass... I've been whispering into her ear all this time, you know. ...Curses! Where did my can of UCF Coffee go?"

[HeWhoPostsStuff]

Methinks I've been thoroughly corrupted plenty already, thank you both very much. :D

[Reichu]

Bah, one can NEVER be too corrupted! (This is "good" corruption, mind you... The distribution of green pieces of paper not involved!) As long as it goes both ways, what's there to complain about? I'll get you over here yet! :evil:

Goodness, where'd all this spam come from?

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Originally posted by HeWhoPostsStuff
The kind of man that all women say they want, before they end up paired up with some obsessive, perverted jerk, who's "really not bad once you get to know him." :P

Yeah, me too.

[NakedEYE666]

Hmm... an Evangelion themed wedding... I had something similar in mind, but I'd need the help of that goddess that helped out Pygmalion.

(But I really was talking about Rei before, wasn't it?)

[felineki]

Well, I'm sure not going to end up with some obsessive, perverted jerk if I can help it! I'd better snag you before someone else does. How does an Evangelion-themed wedding sound, Huggy? :maniacal laughter:

B... but Rachel-san, what about meeeeee? :bawling:

[HeWhoPostsStuff]

An Eva-themed wedding, eh? Well, considering the nature of most interpersonal relationships in Eva, methinks it'd probably be pretty disastrous...though it could definitely be interesting. Here are a few things you might want to take into consideration for such a ceremony...

10. The procedure for the wedding must be laid out in an ancient, mysterious document which is never seen or directly quoted in the entire ceremony

9. All relatives of the bride and groom must undergo tests to make sure that they can synch with the limo

8. If a bachelor party is held the night before, the naked girl that pops out of the cake must be completely pale, luminescent and at least a mile high

7. Even if some of the guests only have a 0.00000000000001 percent chance of making it to the ceremony, they're fully expected to succeed in doing it

6. Instead of hiring a whole bunch of caterers to handle the reception, just hire one and then clone him a whole bunch of times

5. While the wedding itself only gets lukewarm reactions, the marketing blitz afterwards will be overwhelmingly popular and will have people buying videos and other wedding-related products in a trancelike state

4. Every person in attendance must have double-crossed everyone else there at some point in time: for the bride and groom, make it a triple-cross

3. During the kiss, the bride must hold the groom's nose and keep her lips there until he's about to pass out: afterwards, she must dash to the nearest bathroom and rinse her mouth out with as much Listerine as she can take, complaining as loudly about it as possible all the while

2. Various elements from the Bible and Koran will be used in the ceremony, but the whole thing will have no religious significance whatsoever

1. Forget the champagne: we're havin' Tang! :D

[Reichu]

Originally posted by HeWhoPostsStuff
An Eva-themed wedding, eh? Well, considering the nature of most interpersonal relationships in Eva, methinks it'd probably be pretty disastrous...though it could definitely be interesting. Here are a few things you might want to take into consideration for such a ceremony...

Wow... :lol: That is truly inspired! Though, I must say, one would only be able to pull off such a wedding with a budget of SEELE proportions.

I'll bet Tang is cheaper than champagne, though -- count the Tang in! ;)

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Originally posted by HeWhoPostsStuff

3. During the kiss, the bride must hold the groom's nose and keep her lips there until he's about to pass out: afterwards, she must dash to the nearest bathroom and rinse her mouth out with as much Listerine as she can take, complaining as loudly about it as possible all the while

no no no, you're doin' it all wrong. The kiss happens normally, but afterward, the bride must promise to "finish the rest later" and then shove the groom into an elevator, after which the church will be bombed, blowing the bride in half :)

[HeWhoPostsStuff]

Well, in that scenario methinks I oughta add an item making sure that the bride's already made her last will and testament out before the ceremony, heh. Or, to save the bride and groom a lot of trouble later on, you could simply replace the bride with the mother-in-laws. :D

[thewayneiac]

Why has Rei been longing for her abandonment? And, conversely, why does she now fear it...? This is not terribly elaborated upon.

Perhaps she now fears it because she she now has bonds with others that she doesn't want to lose.

Yet if Rei 3 has accepted that she is truly Lilith, why does this happen?



This puzzled me -- why return to your true self, only to mold your true self into the form of the fabricated object you had been placed within?? Yet, as I said a bit earlier on, Rei 1 provided us with the answer.

Quote:
"Because you're afraid. Afraid that your current self will cease to be. Afraid that you will disappear from within the minds of others."


Rei 3 was afraid of confronting the "dark mind" that represents her true self. And even after she finally did face this truth and was welcomed "home", she decided that Lilith was not what she wanted to be. The fact that Rei 3's form is not her true one does not seem to ultimately matter to her. She was afraid of disappearing completely, and, to avoid this personal dilemma, Lilith became Rei, rather than Rei returning to Lilith that which was taken from her (her soul) and then fading into nonexistence. And even with the body of a divinity, Rei 3 continues to let her bonds with others (namely, Shinji) form what she is -- she lets them decide her actions, which, ultimately, results in her physical demise.

Then how does one explain Rei One? Her soul is also a copy of Lilith's soul, yet it continues to appear as Rei, not as a mini-marshmellow. Was Rei One also desperate to retain her identity as Rei, and to not fade into nothingness?

[NakedEYE666]

Then how does one explain Rei One? Her soul is also a copy of Lilith's soul, yet it continues to appear as Rei, not as a mini-marshmellow. Was Rei One also desperate to retain her identity as Rei, and to not fade into nothingness?

Maybe Rei I manifests herself as kid Rei essentially for effect. It'd just be a nightmare if some marshmellow creature comes up and starts talking to you inside your brain, but if it's your self it'll have an effect.

[thewayneiac]

Maybe Rei I manifests herself as kid Rei essentially for effect. It'd just be a nightmare if some marshmellow creature comes up and starts talking to you inside your brain, but if it's your self it'll have an effect.

Yes, but she manifests herself as Rei to Shinji too, and in that scene her intent was not to communicate with Shinji, but to take control of the EVA and off Ritsuko. Why did she need to look like Rei to do that?

Perhaps all three Reis keep on being Reis because that's all they know how to be.

Hmmmm.... This is just the sort of problem that Shin-Seiki is good at solving. Perhaps he will give us some guidance.

[Reichu]

Then how does one explain Rei One? Her soul is also a copy of Lilith's soul, yet it continues to appear as Rei, not as a mini-marshmellow. Was Rei One also desperate to retain her identity as Rei, and to not fade into nothingness?

I really can't answer that one... Although I do think it is evident from the series that Rei 1 never really demonstrates any signs of individuality. A cute kid who makes a devilish Harbinger of Truth, but aside from that, we know nothing. Rei 2 and 3 are different. As short as Rei 3 is around (second half of #23 to beginning of #26'; what she becomes after that might be subject to debate), she is carrying around the same psychological baggage of Rei 2, far as I can tell. 2 and 3 are really more alike than they are purportedly different, as far as I can tell. But, er, what were we talking about again?

And, hmm, I hadn't considered the possibility of Rei 1 appearing as a Marshmallow Girl... But methinks the possibility of her associating herself with her Eva incarnation (http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughters/baka-na/mittsu-no-rei.jpg) is probably enough for most people.

[Shin-seiki]

I figure it wouldn't hurt to bump this amazing thread, for the benefit of our newer members. Reichu, I bow to you and your work here:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/atil/forum/prie2.gif

Indeed, we should all bow before Reichu, the Queen of this (and other) Eva forum(s)...
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/atil/forum/roi2.gif

[Magami No ER]

Nice work. :bow: After reading the first page, I've noticed something strangely similar between Rei 1 (or Child Rei) and Kaworu, as opposed to the other two Reis. They hold nothing back when speaking the truth, about anything, and they know what they are talking about; the other two Reis attempt to cover it up or deny herself. I take this as a little bit of the other Reis not being the original, and that they have been more alcumated with humans, who would do something similar, cover up the truth(at least Rei 2 has a little bit of association in her 7 years, she does seem observent; and Rei 3's has most of Rei 2's downloaded personality, except for the battle ) Kaworu may have had less contact with humans(which I can almost doubt though, as he is freindly and blends in well...mostly), or it could be that he is the first Kaworu, so none of his original Adamish personality was muddled much. I read more of this thread later.
Edit: Good read, makes things clearer.^^
Edit 2: You're right, it does seem that we Lilim have taken our mother creator and reduced her to a ghost of Rei(spirit): it does seem rather sad. But I do understand as well it would not have been fair to Rei to reduce her personality, her heart, into nothing. She was afraid of that.And of course a wonderful thing that resulted from all of this pain was teh bishie God, Kaworu. :snicker: Perhaps these apparitions, Hope and the Words I Love You will still continue to watch over Earth, looking like Lilim, even with a greater understanding of them, maybe...(This is why I believe that NGE has a happy ending, despite Shinji getting all weepy. Now people {as of right now } can choose to return from the sea of LCL, or if they still are afraid, remain.) Plus Rei and Kaworu(imagery ghosts, you could say) make choose to watch over the Earth. Though I don't believe they will interfere....or I guess they really can't, seeing how Yui-sama as a divine being, took the LnY(our new acroym for the Spear of Longinus) away.
My, my, what a long inference edit!

[Soluzar]

I figure it wouldn't hurt to bump this amazing thread, for the benefit of our newer members. Reichu, I bow to you and your work here:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/atil/forum/prie2.gif

Indeed, we should all bow before Reichu, the Queen of this (and other) Eva forum(s)...
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/atil/forum/roi2.gif

What a cool image! Where do you get these wonderfull toys? That's so cool, and at the same time, quite appropriate...^_^

I too, of course, would like to bow to Reichu, this thread is one of the more fascinating things I read, shortly after discovering the forum. The scene with mitsu no Rei-tachi is one of the more complex parts of the show, and thanks in large part to this thread, and the translations which are linked from here, I can say that I've largely got my head around it.

The part I find fascinating about this scene is that even though it is an exploration of a situation peculiar to NGE, it is also partially applicable to real life, or to put it more correctly, real minds. I've often felt that my mind is not one voice, but that there are many voices which comprise me. Classic psychoanalysis would seem to agree, labeling the three principal components of the psyche the ego, the id, and the superego. Considering that one of the component manifestations of Rei in this scene is a childlike version, and that the id is often referred to as the 'inner child', and I wonder if this model of the psyche is applicable in any way to this scene.

Moving on, though, the other thing I find moving in this scene is the notion that Rei does not know her innermost self - in this instance, her 'innermost self' is Lileth, but it also strikes me that it would be hard for me to say that I completely know myself. It is possible that there may be elements of my own personality that I do not know, since I have never been placed in a situation where I might have the chance to explore that particular part of me.

I'm sure I'm not saying anything massively original, but it certainly is a deep and significant scene. This thread proved very usefull to me on my most recent viewing of the series.

[Shin-seiki]

What a cool image! Where do you get these wonderfull toys? That's so cool, and at the same time, quite appropriate...^_^http://perso.wanadoo.fr/atil/forum/s.htm

[Reichu]

Indeed, we should all bow before Reichu, the Queen of this (and other) Eva forum(s)...

:redface: Awww, you make me feel and all warm and fuzzy inside. Aside from just letting everyone know which Rei says what, I'm not sure what kind of 'insight' I've provided. Perhaps I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Biscuit, I actually did start have the thought, recently, about the Case of Rei being some kind of symbolic battle between id, ego, and superego, although this might fall apart upon closer inspection... I don't pretend to understand the Freudian concepts quite enough to know.

Also, Magami, Rei 2 doesn't seem to have been around (out of the tank, anyway) for even 7 years. Could dig up those threads re: timing if you like.

[Magami No ER]

Oh, yeah, I believe it says and shows Rei 2 in an episode(can't remember, pretty sure it was in the early teens) when she came outta the tube.

[Reichu]

If Rei-2 came out of the tube halfway through the series, then who is the bandaged girl we meet in episode #01?

[Magami No ER]

No no, I meant the flashback. :)

[Reichu]

You sure you aren't thinking of when they were doing the dummy plug stuff in Terminal Dogma?

[Magami No ER]

I'm pretty sure it said some number of years ago,...I don't know, I'll have to check. Like, now.

[Reichu]

I noticed that this one was about to vanish off the map, and it's something that I still find useful for linking to. Until the FGC Thread Archive is fully operational, we are vulnerable. Er, I mean, I need to bump it, to preserve it. It's kinda old, and outdated, and I need to fix the image links, but it might be a good place to resume the train of thought that started up here (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=185453&page=9&pp=15&highlight=creepy), circa post #122.

Scotty-boy, that's your queue. :weak voice: "Shin-seiki... Remember your promise..." <croak>

[TheGoose]

I'm in disagreement with how you think Rei's story ended. If Rei didn't become an individual, then what was the whole point with Rei talking about being yourself at the end in, "End of Evangelion?" How could she know about being an individual when, with what you say, Rei lets Shinji decides her fate?

[Magami No ER]

Nice bump.

She and Kaworu certainly know the difference between being an individual and being a part of a whole. Never did she, to my knowledge, state where she belongs in all of this, keeping up the mirage of an enigma. It would seem she's accepted the fact that she's not an individual, and turned her intention from Gendo, to herself as merely Rei II, then to Shinji. Not really sure how she would go about becoming her own person anyway, at least based of her coposition and limited life expereinces. The ones she does seem to take to heart, as this thread did expound on (I believe), was the experiences with the two Ikaris. That's all I infered.
I'm not commenting to the TV end, btw.

[Reichu]

I'm in disagreement with how you think Rei's story ended. If Rei didn't become an individual, then what was the whole point with Rei talking about being yourself at the end in, "End of Evangelion?" How could she know about being an individual when, with what you say, Rei lets Shinji decides her fate?
I barely remember what this thread was about. (lol)

And, wait, are you saying that she DOESN'T let Shinji decide her fate? Or maybe she and Yui, in their conspirational wickedness, decide everything in advance, and Lilith is already committed to going through the process and falling to itty bits at the end, and she just has to make SHINJI decide that the world sucks enough to go along with their plan?

Yes, that must be it.

[TheGoose]

No, not any more. When I wrote my original post I was, "running away from the truth." Back in the day, I was just being stupid. Though, I'm still confused why Rei was chosen to tell Shinji about living as an individual when she herself wasn't one.

[SPARTAN117CJL]

Why has Rei been longing for her abandonment? And, conversely, why does she now fear it...? This is not terribly elaborated upon.

Just to chime in and say I think it's fairly obvious when you take the big picture into Consideration. Rei's own quest to pursue her individuality was controlled by and Large by Gendo. She existed at his whim, and for his whim, and Rei knew this all too well. Thus, in order to explore herself as an individual, she wanted the bond's to come off.

Her reluctance is even more simple, it's the fear of moving on without having someone else to Lean on. Yes Gendo controlled and to some extent created Rei, but to be the only thing in existence (That is alive) that is truly close to another person (Gendo in this case) is a nifty crutch, this explains to me two things, A) Why she is reluctant (As seen above) And B) Why her feelings towards Gendo are anything but warm towards the end of the series.

The relative Freedom given to Rei had been enough for her to form something of an illusion that she wasn't Gendo's tool. School, Piloting, and her interaction with others (Chiefly Shinji) help her form the idea that she can exist without the purpose Gendo laid out for her. However the line 'This is the day for which you were Born' (Created, or the day for which you exist,etc) Brings the truth home and ends that comfortable Illusion. Furthermore, she realizes that abandonment does not mean becoming free as she thought it would mean. She know's, that by going along with Gendo's plans that she has been used, her purpose has been fulfilled and that she can't really become and individual because she had gone along with the will someone else had laid out for her. Psychologically, that has to be damaging to a person, Rei realizes that In addition to losing her Crutch, she Might be losing everything that what made her into what she was until that day, And that is very much why she chooses to 'become' Lilith. Her act is by and large and act of Rebellion, it's Both saying to Gendo and proving it to herself that she can and will exist at her own will and whim.

I also would be wary of calling Chibi-Rei's accusation that Rei 2 & 3 are merely shells who are artificial and for who no Individual self can exist. The Experiences of Rei 2 and 3 are indeed real, and while she was created by Gendo (And she know's this) the experiences given to her by here interactions with others give her both A) a sense of individuality, and B) another purpose. To expound, Rei previously only existed for Gendo, but now considering her Interaction and fondness for Shinji, what would acting along with Gendo's plan mean for both Rei and Shinji ? Rei would lose the ability to be with the person that she has come to care for (Her own sense of individuality had found Shinji Agreeable) and Shinji would also lose someone he cared a great deal for (Another purpose for existing.)

With this in mind, we can see that Rei as an individual is developed. Not as developed as every other human on the planet but despite the fact that she has a false body with the soul of another (Lilith) she had become something different then what that soul originally was. Rei 1 merely reflects the doubt that Rei can never be *truly* unique as an individual, not the objective truth.

Are you sure it's not just him having weird hallucinations of his own accord? If I were floating around in a quantum state for a month I bet I'd start "seeing" weird things, too. ;)

I would think its a 'mini' Instrumentality, where just Him and his mom are baking banana pancakes together.

[Tom Servo]

Rei is not a happy bunny, the stuff about her relationships with others and all that - while it does play a role - I think what Rei is really interested in is doing herself in at the first opportunity.

TEXT:
"You are afraid"

REI 1:
You're afraid of ceasing to exist.
You're afraid of being erased from everyone's hearts.

REI 3:
Afraid? I don't understand.

REI 1:
Your own individual world will also cease to exist.

TEXT:
"It frightens you, doesn't it?"

REI 1:
You will cease to exist.

TEXT:
"It frightens you, doesn't it?"

REI 3:
No, it makes me happy.
Because I want to die.
What I desire is despair.
I want to return to nothingness.

REI 2:
But I can't.
I cannot return to nothingness.
He won't let me return.

REI 3:
He won't let me go back yet.
Rei wants to die, but can't, because Gendo keeps bringing her back into another vessel every time she does until his plans come to fruition.

The "what do you desire" bit in episode 26 speaks about each of the characters preceding the text as well as Shinji, for Rei's it's:

REI:
What do you seek?

TEXT:
A resolution to the loneliness
Elsewhere in 25/26 this comes up for Rei a few times. Rei I talks about losing her bonds with others and ceasing to exist in the mind's of others and being afraid of that, but Rei II and III cut right through what she says.

There are all kinds of conflicts going on inside Rei's head, especially later into the series, I think her driving motivation is "let me die already" rather than anything else tho'.