Reichu explains it all...

[Shin-seiki]

I want to bring to this forum's attention this amazingly insightfull (to me, anyway) post on Anime-Forums EVA forum by our own Reichu:
originally posted by Reichu
This is only hinted at vaguely, but Yui's future career choices were either to (A) become the soul of EVA-01 or (B) get shot in the back by one of SEELE's grunts. Her conversation with Fuyutsuki seems to imply that Yui herself was targeted for elimination due to having goals contrary to those of SEELE, so uniting with the Eva was actually the best possible thing to do. SEELE could not dispose of EVA-01 like they could Yui herself, and, as the Eva, Yui would still have a chance to prevent SEELE's scenario for Third Impact.

Also, the limited amount of time available to Yui nicely explains why she carried out her EVA-01 Contact Experiment before the Eva had finished growing and was still attached to Lilith.Reichu, you are a genius! You have managed to make sense of what I always considered one of the most enigmatic conversations in the entire series!
Episode 21 - Yui/Fuyutsuki under a tree with baby Shinji

[telop:_ 2003 AD]

[telop:_ Hakone - Lake Ashinoko levee]


Fuyutsuki:
The same weather day after day... The disappearance of autumn from this country is sad beyond words._ According to the scenario in SEELE's Secret Dead Sea Scrolls, Third Impact will definitely occur in a little over ten years.

Yui:
SEELE and Gehirn - organizations for preventing the final tragedy.

Fuyutsuki:
I support your intentions - Not SEELE's.


Yui:
Professor Fuyutsuki, it would be terribly dangerous to break that seal onto the world.

_
Fuyutsuki:
I've given all the materials to Ikari._ It's not something one can do alone._ (pause)

__
(cont'd)
We won't repeat what happened last time.


Oh, and I've also been given a warning -
It seems that it would be no trouble at all for them to erase me.


Yui:
And those who survived as well._ It's easy to exterminate people.


Fuyutsuki:
Still, that's no reason for you to become a test subject.

Yui:
Everything happens as it must._ That is why I am with SEELE - for Shinji's sake...

This makes a whole lot of things fall into place...

I think it should be obvious now why this was one of the DC scenes considered significant enough to be retained on the Death (True)^2 cut of D&R...

[saiyajin prince]

I figured that Yui was planned the whole thing about being absorbed in Eva01 but never really understood all the details....well not until now...:lol:...thanks :cheers:

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
Reichu, you are a genius! You have managed to make sense of what I always considered one of the most enigmatic conversations in the entire series!

A-arigatou... I'm not sure if I'm a genius, but hearing stuff like that sure brings a pink flush to my cheeks! ^_^

[Just to give credit where it's due, I think Dr. Nick's comments in this thread (http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=123020&perpage=15&pagenumber=2) helped my thought process out a bit.]

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by Reichu
A-arigatou... I'm not sure if I'm a genius, but hearing stuff like that sure brings a pink flush to my cheeks! ^_^

[Just to give credit where it's due, I think Dr. Nick's comments in this thread (http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=123020&perpage=15&pagenumber=2) helped my thought process out a bit.] Er... well I guess that makes Dr Nick a genius too! -o-;
Hmm, I don't know how i missed all that, but I don't remember that stuff, even tho I was posting in that thread too...
Anyway, now that we all understand Yui's intentions and motivations, I take back everything I said about her being the biggest lunatic in the whole series; like I indicated above, this makes a whole lot of stuff fall into place.

[tv33]

I knew that she was going in to protect the world from the evil old men of SEELE (I got that much when she said "That is why I am with SEELE - for Shinji's sake... " ). I did not however know why she chose then, I also did not know about SEELE's plans to ice her.


Gendo must not have known of SEELE's plans to kill Yui, if he did I think it would have been the old men of SEELE who would meet with an untimely end. And if he could not kill them, I doubt he would have been willing to work with them in the future.

[Lord Timaeus]

And all this time, I thought Yui was just plain crazy. But thanks to Reichu, I have a newfound respect for the Evas' souls. Reichu, you truly are the ruler of all Eva forums.

[tv33]

Originally posted by Starmorpher
And all this time, I thought Yui was just plain crazy.

Did you guys really think Yui just decided to have her soul absorbed for the hell of it? Just for kicks? And then when they tried to get her out she said "Ah, what the hell, I rather like it in here."?

[Shin-seiki]

It's interesting to look at this scene in light of what we're discussing here:
(Ep25' Air)
SCENE: SEELE monoliths - Gendo and Fuyutsuki

SEELE 01 (Keel):
The promised time has come.
With the Lance of Longinus now lost, complementation using Lilith is impossible.
Our only hope is to proceed with EVA-01, Lilith's sole clone.

Gendo:
While different from SEELE's scenario...

Fuyutsuki:
Humans have existed to create Eva. (ambiguous)

Gendo:
Humans should evolve into a new world. That is the purpose of the Eva series.

SEELE 09:
We have no intention of giving up our human forms simply to enter the Ark called Eva.

SEELE 12:
It is merely a rite of passage... To bring about the rebirth in those who are imprisoned.

SEELE 05(?):
The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.

SEELE 04(?):
A sacrament to unite God, humans, and all other life forms in death. [<<Reichu, please note]

Gendo:
Death gives birth to nothing.

SEELE 01 (Keel):
Then death is what you shall have.

(SEELE monoliths disappear)

Fuyutsuki:
Humans exist because they have the will to live...
And that is the reason she remained within Eva.

[GandalfsWhisper]

Wow. Cool. I've been wondering about that for a while, now it makes sense.

[NakedEYE666]

Awsome Reichu, just goes to prove that this Evangelion forum harbors the best equipped people to solve Evangelion's mysteries. Anyone like to take a stab at Rei's creation? People have tried to explain it to me but I can't grasp a single thing about it.

[Reichu]

Glad that my little post has proven to be so illuminating to others. I don't believe anyone has commented on how all this resolves the odd timing of the Contact Experiment (i.e., "Why not wait until your Eva is fully grown?"), which had plagued me a bit more than how painfully obtuse Yui and Kouzou's conversation is.

As far as the dialogue from 26' you've quoted, Shin-seiki, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at. Are you just highlighting the fact that Yui stayed in the Eva because it was better than getting shot in the back and being erased forever? Because, as they put it, she has the will to live?

Originally posted by NakedEYE666
Awsome Reichu, just goes to prove that this Evangelion forum harbors the best equipped people to solve Evangelion's mysteries.

Perhaps at the current point in time, anyway. No doubt other great folks have contributed to the fandom in the past, only to lose interest and move onto other things.

Anyone like to take a stab at Rei's creation? People have tried to explain it to me but I can't grasp a single thing about it.

Didn't I summarize MDWigs' theory on this rather recently? In case you missed it, it's here (http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129236&perpage=15&highlight=creation&pagenumber=2) -- scroll down towards the bottom of that page.

So the salvage of 2005 failed because Yui didn't want to leave Shogouki. Is this because she believed that, if she returned to human form, she would just be putting herself in death's path yet again? (KEEL: "Hmm, that Ikari lady seems to have showed up again. You know what to do, my puppets." GRUNTS: "Ja woll, Herr Lorenz!")

As far as Rei goes, Rei-001 was, presumably, formed from Yui's distintegrated remains in the entry plug. In 2015, Ritsuko-tachi were trying to fix Shinji's soul back into his body; while we know that any LCL can become anyone's body, they were apparently trying to reform his body from its actual remnants at first. In #20, Maya explains, "Salvaging means reconstructing his body and fixing his soul into it."

So, in 2005, what happened first? Was a new body created in the entry plug and a soul put into it afterwards? What caused the body to be so much younger than Yui herself at that point? (What did Rei-001 start out as? A newborn? A zygote?) What about the pigmentation differences? And, my favorite question of all, what would pull Lilith out of her body and into a false one? I suppose there is the possibility that Lilith did it on purpose, not knowing that she would be separated from her memories in the process -- but that might be a little off the deep end.

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by Reichu
Glad that my little post has proven to be so illuminating to others. I don't believe anyone has commented on how all this resolves the odd timing of the Contact Experiment (i.e., "Why not wait until your Eva is fully grown?"), which had plagued me a bit more than how painfully obtuse Yui and Kouzou's conversation is.

As far as the dialogue from 26' you've quoted, Shin-seiki, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at. Are you just highlighting the fact that Yui stayed in the Eva because it was better than getting shot in the back and being erased forever? Because, as they put it, she has the will to live?Well, it's a bit off-topic, but I hope you picked up on the relevance of this line:

SEELE 04(?):
A sacrament to unite God, humans, and all other life forms in death. [<<Reichu, please note]

to that other thread where we were discussing whether penguins and paramecia were included in 3I.
Beyond that I thought that scene re-enforced your point that Yui's motive was not just self-preservation, but saving the human race from the fate that SEELE had planned...
Also, I think we need to take a look at what all this talk of EVA as an Ark to ride out 3I signifies. (Fuyutsuki refers to this idea in Ep26' too)

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
Well, it's a bit off-topic, but I hope you picked up on the relevance of this line:

SEELE 04(?):
A sacrament to unite God, humans, and all other life forms in death. [<<Reichu, please note]

to that other thread where we were discussing whether penguins and paramicia were included in 3I.

Bloody banana... It was right there in front of me the whole time! -o-; Guess it just goes to show that in NGE, you have to be paying attention every second.

If that had been their intent all along, though, they could've used a name like the "Biota Instrumentality Project" or something.

Also, I think we need to take a look at what all this talk of EVA as an Ark to ride out 3I signifies. (Fuyutsuki refers to this idea in Ep26' too)

I'm clueless on that one at the moment. All of the souls were being gathered into the Black Moon, so I don't really know what Eva has to do with anything. Kind of makes me wonder... SEELE was intending to cause 3I with Lilith and LoL. After 22, the plan switched to EVA-01, the ryousanki, and the copy LoLs. In EoE, all of those ingredients ended up being used, with Addy-boy thrown into the mix, and somehow Shinji became important, too.

All (chanting):
Evangelion Unit 01's pilot...
Complement humankind with your imperfect ego.

The more ya analyze this stuff, the more confusing it becomes. :dead:

BTW, Shin-seiki, I edited my last post; perhaps you have something to add to that.

[yjs]

Wow. It's amazing things are still being uncovered this long after Eva's been released. Reading this makes me want to watch Eva again...

I agree that this is the best Eva forum on the web, now that Animeboard's Eva forum is pretty much dead.

[Dr. Nick]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
Er... well I guess that makes Dr Nick a genius too! -o-;
:blush: Thanks, but if I'm a genius, you sir are an úberpimp.
Originally posted by Reichu
If that had been their intent all along, though, they could've used a name like the "Biota Instrumentality Project" or something.
I think there are three possible options:
1. Those old grumps of SEELE are talking partially nonsense (hey, they are a freaky apocalyptic cult after all).
2. There's an animation inconsistency in that scene where we see trees still standing after Third Impact.
3. TI affects to humans and animals but not plants, which explains the trees (yeah, right :rolleyes:).

I'm going to go with number one here.

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by Dr. Nick
:blush: Thanks, but if I'm a genius, you sir are an úberpimp.

I think there are three possible options:
1. Those old grumps of SEELE are talking partially nonsense (hey, they are a freaky apocalyptic cult after all).
2. There's an animation inconsistency in that scene where we see trees still standing after Third Impact.
3. TI affects to humans and animals but not plants, which explains the trees (yeah, right :rolleyes:).

I'm going to go with number one here. I'm going with option 2, myself.
BTW, have you been following this thread (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129943&perpage=15&pagenumber=3)?

[Reichu]

I've tried to transfer the last few points from this thread back to the other one, so check that out. I'm still waiting for people to take a stab at addressing those other Yui-related mysteries I mentioned. :P

[MDWigs]

Reichu:

I'm still waiting for people to take a stab at addressing those other Yui-related mysteries I mentioned.

I'll take a shot at it... but give me a couple of weeks. I'm getting on a plane in two days to fly 20 hours half way around the world. Once I set up shop in my new place I'll do my best to reply (if this thread is still here by then).

[Reichu]

Originally posted by MDWigs
I'll take a shot at it... but give me a couple of weeks. I'm getting on a plane in two days to fly 20 hours half way around the world. Once I set up shop in my new place I'll do my best to reply (if this thread is still here by then).

We'll miss you dearly in the meantime. ;_;

I still am somewhat perplexed that virtually every time I bring up some of my nagging questions, they are all but overlooked by the majority of the people here... Ah, well, I'm used to it by now. Me and my giant otaku-prod will coerce discussion from you yet!

[MDWigs]

It's becuase you ask the big questions that nobody has answers too!

[Reichu]

Originally posted by MDWigs
It's becuase you ask the big questions that nobody has answers too!

Perhaps so, perhaps so. :lol: But I still like to think that if us NGE otaku put our grey matter together, no question is too insurmountable! Rather optimistic of me, I know.

I look forward to any thoughts you have to offer, at any rate. ;)

[MDWigs]

My plane departs in a little under six hours. If I didn't have some much packing still to do I would give it a shot now (I've done so much procrastination already ^_^)

[BLACKANGEL32076]

>Reichu

Give yourself a LITTLE credit girl. You helped me a lot on this ine too. I always wondered if there was more to that, "I want my son to bare witness to the begining of the new world, (or soemthing like that)." part when Yui-san's "accident" happened. It was her way of saying goodbye to Shinji before 3I.

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by MDWigs
It's becuase you ask the big questions that nobody has answers too! Precisely! (Reichu, you remember when I told you "Hmm... you know, you ask some really hard questions; they kinda make my head hurt!" Well you're still asking 'em, and my head still hurts when I think about 'em!) :spin:

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
Precisely!

Well, that's reassuring, at least. ^_^ I was starting to suffer Shinji-esque delusions.

Shinji: "Look, nobody's replying to my mega-load of questions on this forum. Guess it must mean they all hate me."
Asuka: "Anta bakaa~?! They don't hate YOU; your questions just make their heads hurt."
Shinji: "Oh..."

(Reichu, you remember when I told you "Hmm... you know, you ask some really hard questions; they kinda make my head hurt!" Well you're still asking 'em, and my head still hurts when I think about 'em!) :spin:

Actually... I don't. -o-; But, yeah, they make my head hurt, too. ::bashes head against nearest available wall::

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by Reichu
Actually... I don't. -o-; But, yeah, they make my head hurt, too. ::bashes head against nearest available wall:: Back when we first crossed paths (http://www.anime-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=278426#278426) over on Anime-Forums...

[Siendra]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
It's interesting to look at this scene in light of what we're discussing here:
(Ep25' Air)
SCENE: SEELE monoliths - Gendo and Fuyutsuki

SEELE 01 (Keel):
The promised time has come.
With the Lance of Longinus now lost, complementation using Lilith is impossible.
Our only hope is to proceed with EVA-01, Lilith's sole clone.

Gendo:
While different from SEELE's scenario...

Fuyutsuki:
Humans have existed to create Eva. (ambiguous)

Gendo:
Humans should evolve into a new world. That is the purpose of the Eva series.

SEELE 09:
We have no intention of giving up our human forms simply to enter the Ark called Eva.

SEELE 12:
It is merely a rite of passage... To bring about the rebirth in those who are imprisoned.

SEELE 05(?):
The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.

SEELE 04(?):
A sacrament to unite God, humans, and all other life forms in death. [<<Reichu, please note]

Gendo:
Death gives birth to nothing.

SEELE 01 (Keel):
Then death is what you shall have.

(SEELE monoliths disappear)

Fuyutsuki:
Humans exist because they have the will to live...
And that is the reason she remained within Eva.

I was just going to bring that up...

[Reichu]

Originally posted by siendra
I was just going to bring that up...

Well, if you have anything to add, please do so! ^_^

[Shin-seiki]

It seems that this thread (like most threads on this forum) is apt to go off on two or three different tangents. I wanted to take a closer look at the original topic, which was the scene from Ep21'/D&R with Yui and Fuytsuki at the Lake Ashinoko Levee. Now that Reichu has opened my eyes to the real import of this conversation, I'd like to subject it to some in-depth analysis. (And with me, you all know by now that means lots of screenshots ;) )

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_24.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_25.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_01.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_02.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_03.jpg
Here Anno sets the stage; despite the peaceful setting, this is about the impending doom that is looming over everyone in the wake of 2I. Yui and Fuyutsuki are among the tiny handfull of people who actually have any notion of what is really going on...

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_04.jpg
Here Yui and Fuyutsuki are subtlely dancing around the subject, feeling each other out. Yui makes the the first move, offering up the notion (which she, of course knows to be a lie) that SEELE's purpose is to prevent the 'final tragedy'.

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_05.jpg
Fuyutsuki gives her the answer she is looking for, letting her know that he is on her side in this...

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_06.jpg
Yui cuts to the chase: SEELE's plan is madness... The words 'break that seal onto the world' are reminiscent, of course, of the language of the Book of Revelations.

[Shin-seiki]

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_09.jpg
'The materials' is, I suppose, a reference to the stuff that Fuyutsuki had with him when he confronted Gendo earlier in Ep21. Perhaps by "It's not something one can do alone" he means that he's taking an 'if you can't beat 'em, join em' approach to self-preservation. I remember thinking during that scene "Fuyutsuki must not want to live long, letting Gendo know that he plans on blowing the whistle on Gendo and SEELE over what really happened in 2I."

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_11.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_12.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_13.jpg
Anno takes time out to inject a little subtext of Fuyutsuki's obvious, but unstated attraction to Yui. As AWL and friends put it on the D&R Audio Commentary: "Haha! the old guy is looking down her shirt!" The shot of Shinji reaching for her breasts is, of course, a suggestion of where Fuyutsuki allows his mind to wander for a sec... Oh well, judging by the various looks at Rei's chest @,@ provided in the series, we can surmise that Yui has a very nice pair; who can blame him?! ;)

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_14.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_26.jpg
The Bochan_bird take on this line seems to refer to Second Impact; whereas the new ADV translation on the Resurrection DVD refers to his confrontation with Gendo; for once, I think that ADV is on the right track in this case.

[Shin-seiki]

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_15.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_16.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_17.jpg
As I mentioned above, Fuyutsuki was virtually signing his own death warrant when he confronted Gendo; Gendo must have considered him more usefull alive than dead, otherwise he wouldn't even be around for this conversation.
Yui's reference to survivors was what always tripped me up in interpreting this scene; I thought it was a reference to 2I, and I couldn't figure out what any of this had to do with, say, Misato... -o-; Anyway, Reichu has put me on track as to what that line really means, tho I would say that I don't think that Yui was in imminent danger, rather I think she knew that sooner or later, she would have to go against SEELE's scenario, and that if she did, they would simply eliminate her.

[Shin-seiki]

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_18.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_20.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_21.jpg
The line "Still, that's no reason for you to become a test subject" is crucial, because it connects what they've been talking about to the otherwise incomprehensible choice that Yui makes. The line "Every thing happens as it must" is one of my favorites in the entire series; Yui is the one person who really knows what's going on, and, as Reichu points out, she does what she's gotta do to be able to influence the course of events.

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_27.jpg
Needless to say, I don't like ADV's lame-o translation of that line.

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_22.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ep21'_Levee/screenshot_23.jpg
Fuyutsuki stares at Yui, as the full import of what she's hinting at starts to sink in...

[Reichu]

Another great presentation, as always. (And glad I could be of help.) It definitely opened my eyes to things from that conversation that has previously gone over MY head (since you know where my focus commonly lies ;)). I must meditate upon this.

One place where I currently disagree is that Yui's situation was a little more immediately dire than she might have been letting on. As I've pointed out, her choice to conduct a Contact Experiment on an unfinished Eva (Shogouki's legs had not yet emerged defined from the stretched taffy "umbilical cord" to which she was connected to Lil, and such) only really makes sense if it is viewed in connection to Yui's haste. She didn't have time to wait for the Eva to finish growing; it had to happen then and there.

Also interesting is Yui's choice of Eva. There surely must have been fully mature Eva bodies lying around in GEHIRN's basement, yet she chose the one that was being grown from Lilith, not a GSF of Adam. (The choice to grow an Eva straight out of Lilith in the first place is still something that hopelessly boggles me.) Is this because having a body made directly from Lilith would give Yui's future self advantages in 'preventing the final disaster' that she wouldn't otherwise have?

[AnalyticalWrath]

Originally posted by Reichu
And, my favorite question of all, what would pull Lilith out of her body and into a false one? I suppose there is the possibility that Lilith did it on purpose, not knowing that she would be separated from her memories in the process -- but that might be a little off the deep end.

I always assumed that the mask has something to do with this, or at least blocks her way back.

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by Reichu
Another great presentation, as always. (And glad I could be of help.) It definitely opened my eyes to things from that conversation that has previously gone over MY head (since you know where my focus commonly lies ;)). I must meditate upon this.

One place where I currently disagree is that Yui's situation was a little more immediately dire than she might have been letting on. As I've pointed out, her choice to conduct a Contact Experiment on an unfinished Eva (Shogouki's legs had not yet emerged defined from the stretched taffy "umbilical cord" to which she was connected to Lil, and such) only really makes sense if it is viewed in connection to Yui's haste. She didn't have time to wait for the Eva to finish growing; it had to happen then and there.

Also interesting is Yui's choice of Eva. There surely must have been fully mature Eva bodies lying around in GEHIRN's basement, yet she chose the one that was being grown from Lilith, not a GSF of Adam. (The choice to grow an Eva straight out of Lilith in the first place is still something that hopelessly boggles me.) Is this because having a body made directly from Lilith would give Yui's future self advantages in 'preventing the final disaster' that she wouldn't otherwise have? When I think about it, I have to admit that you're most likely right about the urgency of Yui's situation; it explains what happens next too neatly to be discounted. I didn't think that her tone sounded particularly dire, but the whole scene is deceptively calm, given the life-or-death, fate-of-the-world subject matter. Also, the way Fuyutsuki refers to her differences with SEELE, it seems like it was an open secret...
As for the advantages of EVA-01 over any other EVA for her purposes, I wonder whether another EVA would be able to sprout twelve wings and restore the world (which, more than anything else, indicates to me that Yui attains divine status by the end of the story) like she does in Ep26'. (Tho one wonders if Yui could really see that far ahead...)

[Reichu]

Originally posted by AnalyticalWrath
I always assumed that the mask has something to do with this, or at least blocks her way back.

Could you explain your reasoning behind this? I don't see any connection, personally. The function of Lilith's mask (assuming it has any at all) still poses an enormous mystery to me, but implying that it has something to do with her transferance to Rei seems illogical. The salvage wasn't trying to put Lilith's soul anywhere -- the target was Yui, so Lilith ending up in a Yui-like body was by all indications an accident.

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
As for the advantages of EVA-01 over any other EVA for her purposes, I wonder whether another EVA would be able to sprout twelve wings and restore the world (which, more than anything else, indicates to me that Yui attains divine status by the end of the story) like she does in Ep26'. (Tho one wonders if Yui could really see that far ahead...)

Is it possible that the twelve wings refer to Shogouki's connection to Lilith? Though I do find it odd that, initially, she only sprouts four, the number that Adam displayed in Antarctica. Is there any significance to this discrepancy? (Also interesting is that twelve wings is, traditionally, a trademark of Sammael (http://www.avians.net/rkc/14daughters/00_sammael.jpg) -- need I explain who that is? :P -- which makes one wonder what Lilith/Rei is doing with twelve...)

Also, much about the very end of 26' (the Heisoku no kakudai bit, anyway) continues to twist my brain into knots... Shin-seiki, how much of what is going on do you think can be attributed directly to Yui? Granted, she seems a bit more active then than earlier in the episode, where she was a passive focal point of the 3I "ritual".

BTW, I'll be posting a goody later on that relates vaguely to the topic at hand. (I WOULD post it now, if avians.net wasn't being stupid.)

[AnalyticalWrath]

What I mean is more of the mask is what keeps Lilith's soul from returning to her body which draws the angels to her because they think she is Adam. It's a means by which to keep everyone from realizing where Adam is. I don't really believe it "pulled" her soul out but I do believe it keeps her out.

so Lilith ending up in a Yui-like body was by all indications an accident

or could it be a clever plan by Gendo to bend things to his own means?

[Reichu]

Originally posted by AnalyticalWrath
What I mean is more of the mask is what keeps Lilith's soul from returning to her body which draws the angels to her because they think she is Adam. It's a means by which to keep everyone from realizing where Adam is. I don't really believe it "pulled" her soul out but I do believe it keeps her out.

I'm still not convinced of the supposed mask/angelic-attraction connection, either. As for your other suggestion, the mask somehow keeping her soul out -- that would require assuming her soul is trying to return to her body to begin with, which it's not. It's contained within Rei, and when one Rei dies, the soul doesn't go anywhere -- it stays inside the dead body until it is technologically transferred to a new one. This phenomenon of the soul remaining after death is not limited to Rei -- it is one of the "spiritual dynamics" of the NGE mythos.

or could it be a clever plan by Gendo to bend things to his own means?

Gendou's ultimate motive in NGE is to "be with Yui again", so doubt he would intentionally botch the operation to return Yui to Lilim form in such a way. Or perhaps I'm completely missing something and Rei's creation was somehow not "accidental". :???:

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by Reichu
Or perhaps I'm completely missing something and Rei's creation was somehow not "accidental". :???: I, for one, have never been convinced that Lilith's soul ending up in Rei was an accident.
[Ep25]:
Gendou: Let's go. This is the day for which you were created, Rei...
Rei: Hai.

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
I, for one, have never been convinced that Lilith's soul ending up in Rei was an accident.
[Ep25]:
Gendou: Let's go. This is the day for which you were created, Rei...
Rei: Hai.

Hmm, yes, I suppose Gendou DID say that for a reason. Making sense of it all is something else altogether, though. If Rei was created on purpose, wouldn't it be at odds with Wigs' nice theory connecting the creation of Rei-001 to the failed attempt to salvage Yui? There are so many unanswered questions. The quote cited above reprompts many of the questions I spouted earlier in this thread (and in numerous other threads, as well -- never to any sort of resolution, if I recall). Oh, the mysteries, the mysteries.

Anyways, here's a little goody for whoever is interested, and it bares at least minimal pertinence to the subject. I've pieced together the Eva graveyard scene from #23' (http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-23/23_C300_npc_comp.jpg) (from "Renewal" caps most graciously provided to me) -- and, hmm, mighty suspicious! Has anyone identified whatever particular religious iconography is being represented there? (The interconnected circles remind me of the Sephiroticum, though from what I can tell it's not the same thing.)

As for how that is possibly pertinent... Doesn't that place remind you of anything (http://www.evacommentary.org/full-op/full-op_C237_comp.jpg)?

EDIT: Fixed the image links.

[Gaizokubanou]

Oooo I wanna watch renewal now... Anyway what's up with the last three pics Reichu? They are so blurry. Where did they come from?

BTW, what happen to Live Action Eva thread?

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Gaizokubanou
Anyway what's up with the last three pics Reichu? They are so blurry. Where did they come from?

It's a vague drawing of Shogouki being grown from Lilith, originally from #23' (one of many images superimposed over the tank of Rei clone bodies while Ritsuko is talking about Adam, Eva, and Rei). All of the images were removed from the Renewal version of #23' and can now only be found in the Full-Size OP on the "TEST TYPE" DVD, from which those three screenshots were captured. (I don't own the DVD myself; someone else gratiously took the screen captures for me.) Although Rei clones are no longer obscuring the view, as it were, the images still have this watery distortion effect applied to them -- which is why I can't composite the Shogouki-Lilith scene into one image as I did with the Eva Graveyard. ( :bawling: ) Also probably explains the "blurry" quality.

BTW, what happen to Live Action Eva thread?

I was wondering that myself... Ask Sharp-kun, he should know.

[Incisivis]

You people are freaking amazing.

Now I'll just go back to wasting oxygen. :twitch:

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Yui: It's easy to exterminate people.
Fuyutsuki: Still, that's no reason for you to become a test subject


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that part indicate that Yui is just being paranoid, and that refusing to be a test subject won't guarantee a death sentence?

Actually, now that I think about it, she seems to be volunteering to protect her son's life, not her own. Could SEELE be threatening to kill Shinji?

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Chickens
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that part indicate that Yui is just being paranoid, and that refusing to be a test subject won't guarantee a death sentence?

Paranoia seems rather un-Yui-like.

Actually, now that I think about it, she seems to be volunteering to protect her son's life, not her own. Could SEELE be threatening to kill Shinji?

I'm not quite sure where you're getting that idea. Yui is the one whose interests oppose those of SEELE's. Being as she was among GEHIRN's elite, she posed quite a threat to SEELE's scenario. "Eliminate" her, problem solved. If she's inside one of the Evas required for SEELE's scenario, getting rid of her ain't so easy.

As far as her "volunteering to protect her son's life"... My impression is that Yui is interested in protecting the future of life on Earth, and Shinji represents her personal investment on that end, being her progeny and all. That could be a flawed accessment, of course.

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Originally posted by Reichu
Paranoia seems rather un-Yui-like.

Same with eating Angels, but she still does it :)

Anyway... I've been a little sleep-deprived today, so any conclusions that I've come to during the past 18 hours are probably whack. I stand by everything I've said that I came up with before today, though.

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Chickens
I stand by everything I've said that I came up with before today, though.

Yeah, I thought I had NGE figured out at one point, myself.

Turned out I was totally mistaken.

[Sharp-kun]

Originally posted by Reichu

As far as her "volunteering to protect her son's life"... My impression is that Yui is interested in protecting the future of life on Earth, and Shinji represents her personal investment on that end, being her progeny and all. That could be a flawed accessment, of course.
She presumably knows that if she goes into EVA-01, Shinji will be the only one who can pilot it. By being there, when he's piloting, she is protecting him, as demonstrated several times.

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Sharp-kun
She presumably knows that if she goes into EVA-01, Shinji will be the only one who can pilot it. By being there, when he's piloting, she is protecting him, as demonstrated several times.

Still, I would think that is but one motivation out of many for becoming EVA-01's soul. Or joining GEHIRN/SEELE, for that matter.

Originally posted by Fuzzy Chickens
Same with eating Angels, but she still does it :)

Hey, you gotta do what you gotta do. Besides, after getting all of her energy solely from electricity (and occassionally her own mysterious means) for all that time, you can't blame a girl for missing the good ol' feeling of a full stomach. :liplick:

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Maybe, but couldn't she at least use her fingers instead of sticking her face in the Angel's guts? I know that being a giant killer robot for ten years can have an adverse effect on your table manners, but still... :)

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Chickens
Maybe, but couldn't she at least use her fingers instead of sticking her face in the Angel's guts? I know that being a giant killer robot for ten years can have an adverse effect on your table manners, but still... :)

Yui became a robot? When? :look:

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Okay, fine, she became the soul of a giant synthetic lifeform that looks like a robot and runs off electricity. Is that better?

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Chickens
Okay, fine, she became the soul of a giant synthetic lifeform that looks like a robot and runs off electricity. Is that better?

Where you see a "robot", I see a gracile entity with finely sculpted muscles, beautiful emerald eyes, chocolate-brown skin, and a pearly white smile. :crush:

[Fuzzy Chickens]

You sick bastard.

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Chickens
You sick bastard.

Tsk. You're simply no fun at all.

[Reichu]

Geh?! What's a thread named after me doing on the third page? I'd say it's time for a bump. :bump:

Now, I'm really going to go to sleep. Honest. :whispers into Fuzzy Chickens' ear: And I'm going to dream about Yui's sexy Eva bod. :blush: :naughty: :drool: :crush: :kiss: :liplick: ;)

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Dammit, where's a Vomit emoticon when you need one....

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Chickens
Dammit, where's a Vomit emoticon when you need one....

Oh, what a shame you weren't here when I was torturing the forum-goers with my Nekkid Eva drawings. I'll have to start doing that again. :naughty:

[Keisuke-kun]

Also interesting is Yui's choice of Eva. There surely must have been fully mature Eva bodies lying around in GEHIRN's basement, yet she chose the one that was being grown from Lilith, not a GSF of Adam. (The choice to grow an Eva straight out of Lilith in the first place is still something that hopelessly boggles me.) Is this because having a body made directly from Lilith would give Yui's future self advantages in 'preventing the final disaster' that she wouldn't otherwise have?

Since no one has taken a shot....Yui seems to be the "Plan Ahead" type of person. After she goes into the Eva she would have to expect them devising a way to get her out. However since it had never been done before she doesn't know what to expect. Could they forcefully pull her out? Or is it based souly on her will? She deosn't know. The advantage of using Eva-01 is that there is another soul very near. Maybe just maybe if they try to pull Yui out she can just take lilliths soul and substitute it for hers. This causes the creation of Rei.

What do you think?

[Brigitanastasia]

I've pieced together the Eva graveyard scene from #23' (from "Renewal" caps most graciously provided to me) -- and, hmm, mighty suspicious! Has anyone identified whatever particular religious iconography is being represented there? (The interconnected circles remind me of the Sephiroticum, though from what I can tell it's not the same thing.)

This is a long shot, but it could be a biological molecule. It does sort of look to me like a fatty-acid chain, the kind that makes up cellular membranes.

[Reichu]

This is a long shot, but it could be a biological molecule. It does sort of look to me like a fatty-acid chain, the kind that makes up cellular membranes.

If you can find any pictures that support this idea, by all means, we'd love to see them!

[Soluzar]

TheWayneiac just referred me to this thread, because I raised the question that it answers in a new thread, and I'd just like to say: Reichu, DrNick - You guys are both geniuses (genii? geniuu? Genia? )

I've been watching the series through again, and after seeing #23, this just bugged me. It didn't make much senes on the face of it, but you have made sense of it for me. You better make damn sure that this all gets remembered for the commentary. This is the sort of stuff that makes the commentary important.

[Reichu]

TheWayneiac just referred me to this thread, because I raised the question that it answers in a new thread, and I'd just like to say: Reichu, DrNick - You guys are both geniuses (genii? geniuu? Genia? )

Heh, I'll be sure to let Dr. Nick know. ;)

I've been watching the series through again, and after seeing #23, this just bugged me. It didn't make much senes on the face of it, but you have made sense of it for me. You better make damn sure that this all gets remembered for the commentary. This is the sort of stuff that makes the commentary important.

I suppose it's sort of evidence that if you think about NGE hard enough, it CAN make sense, despite all of those otaku who go around claiming it ain't so.

And don't worry, I've been backing up all of these important threads so that when we do get to the more crucial episodes, nothing is forgotten. :thumbsup:

[Gaizokubanou]

Did you guys really think Yui just decided to have her soul absorbed for the hell of it? Just for kicks? And then when they tried to get her out she said "Ah, what the hell, I rather like it in here."?

Yup. (J/K)

Hmm I don't recall THAT kind of conversation between Yui and Fuyutsuky(OMG the terror of his name... I cant spell it!!!) before... where is it(movie, tv series, or director's cut)?

[Shin-seiki]

Yup. (J/K)

Hmm I don't recall THAT kind of conversation between Yui and Fuyutsuky(OMG the terror of his name... I cant spell it!!!) before... where is it(movie, tv series, or director's cut)?It's in Death, and (in slightly different form) in the Director's Cut of #21.

[Mr. Tines]

Bump for its recently being cited. Also for content and the fact that Reichu's revelations are an on-going thing.

[Reichu]

I'm still waiting for every thread on the first page to have "Reichu" in the title. That would be... hmmm... :unsure:

[Seele08]

There needs to be a "Dear Reichu" Thread.

[Reichu]

What would be its purpose?

[Seele08]

Eva ettiquite, Eva repair, debunking of stupid unit-00 and Wandering Jew myths, ect...
General questions for the eva-seer.

I really despise the Wandering Jew myth, if I ever find the idiot who invented it...same goes for the unit 00 myth.

[Ornette]

Wasn't that from the mythology of eva from the plat bonus stuff?

[Reichu]

If this was ever mentioned, I have no recollection of it. This popped out at me the other day:

Episode #25'

Fuyutsuki:
People exist because they have the will to live.
And that is the reason she chose to remain within Eva.
I've never been quite sure what to make of these lines, but could they possibly tie into the proposal introduced by this thread?

[Ornette]

Could it be that her will to live forces her to stay in Eva (as opposed to coming out during the salvage operation) which would only lead to her untimely death?

[Blader5489]

Could it be that her will to live forces her to stay in Eva (as opposed to coming out during the salvage operation) which would only lead to her untimely death?

That's what I was thinking. Because she the will to live (i.e. not getting capped by SEELE), Yui stayed inside Eva-01 so that she could live with purpose.

[Reichu]

We're all on the same page, then. ;) Now, the question is: Why does Fuyutsuki end the "Gendo vs. Seele" scene from #25' this way?

[Blader5489]

We're all on the same page, then. ;) Now, the question is: Why does Fuyutsuki end the "Gendo vs. Seele" scene from #25' this way?

The whole debate is about the future of humanity. SEELE thinks humans should become one, Gendo thinks they should stay separate and "evolve into a new world" (still not sure what exactly that means), while Fuyutsuki thinks that people should just be allowed to live.

In his conversation with Gendo in #12, Fuyutsuki says he'd rather live in a world of people, no matter how steeped in sin. To me, Fuyutsuki's overall belief is to just "let the world be." He believes that people live, and continue to do so, because they want to live with purpose. As such, there is no reason for things to change (whether it be the state of the world or humanity itself).

I believe that this is Anno's overall belief towards life and the meaning of life (the EoE movie promo asks two questions: "So, why are you here?" and "Is it even okay to be here?"). Because this is the message that Anno is trying to convey, I think it's only appropriate that a discussion on the fate of humanity end with Fuyutsuki's lines that reflects this idea.

[Ornette]

That makes sense. Fuyutsuki knows about Yui's big plan, Seele's version of instrumentality seems to combine God, Humans, and all living things:
SEELE 04(?):
A sacrament to unite God, humans, and all other life forms in death.
Which Gendo disagrees with:
Gendo:
Death gives birth to nothing.
But it seems Fuyutsuki disagrees with both of them:
Fuyutsuki:
Humans exist because they have the will to live...
And that is the reason she remained within Eva.

Maybe he's saying Yui remained within Eva so that mankind won't "die"?

That kinda makes sense because he says this ambiguous line earlier in the Gendo vs. Seele convo:
Fuyutsuki:
Humans have existed to create Eva.

That whole conversation is pretty confusion. It almost seems like theres 3 different conversations happening all at once.

[felineki]

Re: "Evolve into a new world"... I think I remember someone suggesting that perhaps it was planned to fill Eva-01 up to the brim with liberated souls before sending her off on her journey to become a Seed. Hence, humanity "evolves" on another world. Perhaps this is what Gendou wanted? There's talk of using Eva-01 as a "medium" and such, after all.

Of course, Fuyutsuki and Yui's plan is a bit different. Humanity gets to send its eternal messenger (via Eva-01, but with only one soul, "very lonely" as Yui put it), but the current generation of humanity gets to continue to live on good ol' earth (being able to reembody after 3I).

Is this on track at all, or am I a total idiot?

[Ornette]

That sounds right to me.
SEELE 09:
We have no intention of giving up our human forms simply to enter the
Ark called Eva.
That looks to me like Seele disagrees with (Gendo's?) plan for instrumentality.

[Reichu]

The whole debate is about the future of humanity. SEELE thinks humans should become one, Gendo thinks they should stay separate and "evolve into a new world" (still not sure what exactly that means)
He literally says "advance to a new world", which is more flexible for interpretation. felineki is probably referring to suggestions I've made in the past (which never seemed to elicit much attention, IIRC).

<snip> Of course, Fuyutsuki and Yui's plan is a bit different. Humanity gets to send its eternal messenger (via Eva-01, but with only one soul, "very lonely" as Yui put it), but the current generation of humanity gets to continue to live on good ol' earth (being able to reembody after 3I).
I am wary of the typical interpretations of Yui's little speech, for various reasons, including how the CoG would factor into things.

[Jabberwok]

He literally says "advance to a new world", which is more flexible for interpretation. felineki is probably referring to suggestions I've made in the past (which never seemed to elicit much attention, IIRC).
The phrases "advance to a new world" and "the Ark called Eva" seem to leave little room for other interpretations form that of Gendo and Yui as a sort of Noah and what's-her-face with a boat-load of souls. If this is what you were aluding to with "suggestions I've made in the past", I don't know why they recieved little attention; seems intuitive enough to me.



In thinking about it further...

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've always believed that Yui's intentions prior to her incident (and posibly after, making certain assumptions about her ability to gather information whilest inside Eva) had little to do with the Instumentality Project seeing as it was only suggested during Gendo's grieving period.

...typical interpretations...
You mean stuff along the lines of...
-My life is as expendible as yours, Kozo. Within Eva, I can live on, in a sense.
-A loving soul will be required as a medium between the pilot and the Eva. Is anyone else selfless enough to make this sacrifice? How else will we stop the Angels when they return?
-Mankind was never meant to have this technology. I will make sure it's removed from the Earth.
-It'll be lonely out there, but at least I'll be alive. If I have that I can always be happy.

If this is what you're getting at, I'm curious what you're wary about. I

I need to watch her and Kozo's little lakeside chats back-to-back sometime. I just realized one was a continuation of the other, lolz.



In further, further thought, I was just thinking about the three seemingly incongruous plans for 3I...
SEELE: Everyone in the pool. God-like Singularity time.
Gendo: Pool's closed. Get in the Ark; it's called Eva.
Yui: You guys stay; you can be happy here. I'll be the loney martyr, the monument to mankind's existence.

And then you get a little of all three in the end. Start out with #1 and then end up with a little hybrid of #'s 2 and 3.



Back on topic. "CoG"s?...Oh, I got it. Vaginas.

[Reichu]

The phrases "advance to a new world" and "the Ark called Eva" seem to leave little room for other interpretations form that of Gendo and Yui as a sort of Noah and what's-her-face with a boat-load of souls. If this is what you were aluding to with "suggestions I've made in the past", I don't know why they recieved little attention; seems intuitive enough to me.

Essentially, it went something like this:

- Everyone gets Tangified.
- Lilith gathers all human souls together.
- The souls are channeled into Yui's Guf. (They "go to where Yui is" and "board the Ark".)
- Yui makes a long, lonely trip to another planet.
- Seed duties commence: Souls are reborn through her as complemented humans carrying both Fruits.
- Gendo can finally be with Yui again. Much bestial, passionate, incestuous love-making follows.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've always believed that Yui's intentions prior to her incident (and posibly after, making certain assumptions about her ability to gather information whilest inside Eva) had little to do with the Instumentality Project seeing as it was only suggested during Gendo's grieving period.
I'm not sure what ANYbody was doing prior to the Instrumentality Project's announcement. Gendo showed off the prototype and invited Fuyutsuki to create a new era for humankind. Fuyutsuki agreed with sentiments of Yui's that Seele did not share, and the two make various cryptic references. Well, Seele is certainly up to something, if they've organized all sorts of crap post-2I, have prodded Adam into growing back into an embryo, have Gehirn working hard on making Evas (one of them using Lilith), and they're already on a schedule that features 3I. There's that "Human Limitation Theory" stuff in the CI, as well.

If HIP appears out of nowhere in 2005, what the hell was happening before that...?

You mean stuff along the lines of...
I meant the "living monument" stuff.

For what it's worth, Fuyutsuki's lines about humanity existing to create Eva occur both towards the beginning of the exposition on Operation Ark and before Yui's speech about Eva (later on). The two scenes are being linked together, clearly; I've thought that perhaps it's because both are, ultimately, talking about the same thing.

"CoG"s?...Oh, I got it. Vaginas.
Chamber of Guf, what the Doors lead to. Where all of the souls who "board the Ark" would, I imagine, be kept.

[Blader5489]

- Yui makes a long, lonely trip to another planet.

But that's not how an Ark functions (at least not the biblical Ark). It's not a cruise to take you somewhere, it's a refuge for people to brave out some sort of storm. My personal theory has always been that Gendo merely planned to use 3I as a means of cleansing the Earth of original sin (i.e. "purification of the Red Earth"; this also explains NERV's logo being half of a fig leaf), and while this was going on, everybody would take refuge inside Yui.

- Seed duties commence: Souls are reborn through her as complemented humans carrying both Fruits.

Eh?

I'm not sure what ANYbody was doing prior to the Instrumentality Project's announcement. Gendo showed off the prototype and invited Fuyutsuki to create a new era for humankind. Fuyutsuki agreed with sentiments of Yui's that Seele did not share, and the two make various cryptic references. Well, Seele is certainly up to something, if they've organized all sorts of crap post-2I, have prodded Adam into growing back into an embryo, have Gehirn working hard on making Evas (one of them using Lilith), and they're already on a schedule that features 3I. There's that "Human Limitation Theory" stuff in the CI, as well.

If HIP appears out of nowhere in 2005, what the hell was happening before that...?

The Dummy Plug entry mentions research with the aim of "seeking out the Path to God." My guess is that Project E and the Adam Project (along with GEHIRN itself) were all means of finding a way to reach the next level of evolution. Once it (= Instrumentality, aka kami e no michi) was discovered, Gendo officially proposed it as the HIP.

For what it's worth, Fuyutsuki's lines about humanity existing to create Eva occur both towards the beginning of the exposition on Operation Ark and before Yui's speech about Eva (later on). The two scenes are being linked together, clearly; I've thought that perhaps it's because both are, ultimately, talking about the same thing.

I was just going to mention that. :P

Fuyustuki's line about humans existing to create Eva never made sense to me until you, and others, were able to dissect and make sense of the lakeside convo between Fuyutsuki and Yui.

Fuyustuki asks Yui if humanity's true goal is to create a clone of a god (i.e. creating Eva from Adam), and Yui says yes, because it's only through Eva (and it's human soul, which in this case is Yui) can proof of humanity's existence last forever. Yui knows that everyone will die eventually, but to prevent the memory of humanity from being erased, she (with Eva-01) intends to be the eternal proof that humans once existed. Hence, the reason for humanity's existence being to create Eva, as without Eva, we'll all be forgotten in the long run.

[Reichu]

But that's not how an Ark functions (at least not the biblical Ark).
I'm aware of that, but there's always the possibility that they're using the term rather loosely. It sure wouldn't be the first time.

My personal theory has always been that Gendo merely planned to use 3I as a means of cleansing the Earth of original sin ... and while this was going on, everybody would take refuge inside Yui.
What is "original sin" in NGE? And, according to your scenario above, where is the Instrumentality/complementation?

(i.e. "purification of the Red Earth"
Isn't that Seele's thing?


this also explains NERV's logo being half of a fig leaf
How so?

Seed duties commence: Souls are reborn through her as complemented humans carrying both Fruits.
Eh?
Eh, what?

The Dummy Plug entry mentions research with the aim of "seeking out the Path to God." My guess is that Project E and the Adam Project (along with GEHIRN itself) were all means of finding a way to reach the next level of evolution. Once it (= Instrumentality, aka kami e no michi) was discovered, Gendo officially proposed it as the HIP.
Interesting. Wouldn't this imply a direct cause-and-effect relationship between the "results" of the salvage op and Gendo's announcement a week or so later?

I was just going to mention that. :P
By "tying the scenes together", I meant that Gendo's intentions and Yui's intentions were, in some ways, "two sides of the same coin", and when Gendo spoke to Yui in #24 about shared plans, he may have been speaking the truth.

Hence, the reason for humanity's existence being to create Eva, as without Eva, we'll all be forgotten in the long run.
If no one else is around to take note of Yui's existence, is she actually proving anything?

[Blader5489]

I'm aware of that, but there's always the possibility that they're using the term rather loosely. It sure wouldn't be the first time.

I was thinking about that too, but the RCB states that the usage of "Ark" is a reference to Noah's Ark, which was used as a refuge to ride out the flooding of the Earth.

What is "original sin" in NGE?

Got me on that one, though I think

And, according to your scenario above, where is the Instrumentality/complementation?

Not included. I was under the impression that Gendo didn't want Instrumentality to occur, because, among other reaons, he wouldn't be able to reunite with Yui.

Isn't that Seele's thing?

I think it's more the 'religious label' applied to 3I (similar to how "Divine Retribution" was used to describe 2I).

How so?

The fig leaf represents original sin, so I'd imagine NERV's logo being half a fig leaf would amount to their goal (which, as the RCB mentions, is really just Gendo and Fuyutsuki's goal) of erasing original sin.

Eh, what?

As in, where did you get that idea and how would it work?

I also just noticed you wrote "complemented humans." How, exactly, is that possible?

If no one else is around to take note of Yui's existence, is she actually proving anything?

I don't think it matters if there are other people around (which there probably are, due to the FAR's efforts to populate the galaxy) to take note of Yui. I think the end result of Yui and Eva-01 being proof of humanity's existence is something akin to the Voyager 2 satellite (specifically, the Golden Record. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_Golden_Record)

[Shin-seiki]

What is "original sin" in NGE?Remember this post on EMF from a couple weeks ago?
http://forums.evamonkey.com/viewtopic.php?p=43050&sid=43fdb21efb09e5ffc2902906e1b19456#430 50

[Reichu]

As in, where did you get that idea and how would it work?
This:

- Everyone gets Tangified.
- Lilith gathers all human souls together.
- The souls are channeled into Yui's Guf. (They "go to where Yui is" and "board the Ark".)
- Yui makes a long, lonely trip to another planet.
...was summarizing what I thought felineki was referring to. The next step, "Souls are reborn through her as complemented humans carrying both Fruits", seemed like the natural follow-up to reaching 'a new world'.

Reichu, in all her glorious fanwanking, has contemplated that perhaps Yui's cosmic journey is but a Moon-less repeat of what Lilith and Adam underwent. Lilim (who, being nowhere near as cool as those "gods" the FAR, must make something out of something and not nothing) use Adam (and Lilith, a little) to make the Evas, with at least some of them justifying it as the very reason for humanity's existence. This reminded me of how an organism exists, in the end, solely to propagate its genes, which is, incidentally, the closest most of us can get to 'immortality'.

Take the FAR themselves. For all their 1337ness, their species has, strictly speaking, probably been dead for a long time. But they live on through all those 'gods' they created, who can not only live forever, but make plenty more humans on other planets. The second generation might, in turn, be expected to follow their ancestors' precedent. "C'mon, kids. You only have to sacrifice ONE of your mothers. That's not too much to ask, is it? It's totally worth it! You'll be remembered long after your sun supernovas!"

So: Following the pattern they started with "Adam" and "Lilith", humans name their rip-off "Eva", whose inherent nature is that of a 'genesis being'. The only Eva who doesn't end up D-E-D successfully departs from Earth, after her work there is done, in order to satisfy such a role -- once she reaches a suitable planet. As she possesses the Fruits of both Adam and Lilith, her children also possess them both, and, as such, are complemented god-humans. (FoL + FoK = alternate form of complementation.) Naturally, Gendo has gone with her, hence the last item on the list.

You asked. :P

Remember this post on EMF from a couple weeks ago?
http://forums.evamonkey.com/viewtopic.php?p=43050&sid=43fdb21efb09e5ffc2902906e1b19456#430 50
Indeed, though I'm not seeing any obvious application to Blader's suggestions. (Though some of my own wonky ideas regarding the YGK Plan have Lilim repenting for evils done to the White Mooners in a rather creative way.)

[Blader5489]

The only Eva who doesn't end up D-E-D successfully departs from Earth, after her work there is done, in order to satisfy such a role -- once she reaches a suitable planet. As she possesses the Fruits of both Adam and Lilith, her children also possess them both, and, as such, are complemented god-humans. (FoL + FoK = alternate form of complementation.)

Here's where you're losing me. Complementation (aka Instrumentality) is the process of all souls merging into one. The idea of "complemented humans" doesn't make sense because you can't be complemented and individual at the same time. That's like SEELE saying they want to evolve all humans into "a single perfect beings."

I mean, if what you're saying is true, why didn't SEELE go along with this idea? The thought process behind the HIP was to transform humanity from a "colony of worthless individuals" into a god. If humans could be evolved into gods, without having to lose their egos in the process, why would SEELE choose to just make everything into one instead?

And AFAIK, FoL + FoK = God (or some kind of kami). What's your reasoning for the two Fruits being an "alternate form of complementation"?

Naturally, Gendo has gone with her, hence the last item on the list.

Typo?

Indeed, though I'm not seeing any obvious application to Blader's suggestions.

Not neccessarily. Gendo and Fuyutsuki's goals seem to be "a new beginning" for mankind (although Fuyutsuki only goes along with it because it's the lesser of two evils). To me, this means wiping the slate clean, and fits perfectly into Shin-seiki's theory.

When you consider that the Red Earth was the world's original state before being populated, it makes sense that Gendo would want to change the world back into this form (i.e. before Angels or Lilim came into existence). This way, once the world has been restored to it's original state, everyone can disembark from the "Ark called Eva" and resettle the Earth - only this time, humans can call themselves the true successors.

This may also be Gendo's personal motivation for destroying the Angels: so that, once the slate is wiped clean (i.e. Earth reverts to Red Earth), there won't be any Angels around to steal the planet from humans, just like humans originally stole the planet from the Angels.

[Reichu]

Typo?
What typo, where?

And AFAIK, FoL + FoK = God (or some kind of kami). What's your reasoning for the two Fruits being an "alternate form of complementation"?
Part of the "inspiration" was Gendo sticking Adam into Rei and telling her, "complement your imperfect heart". I was like, "Ooo. Forbidden fusion. Lilith. Adam. Fruit of Knowledge. Fruit of Life. Complementary elements brought together = complementation!"

Squashing all souls together into one yields a "god". Complementing the two Fruits with one another yields a "god". CI 6-C forwards an "equals relationship" between "human evolution" and "The Path to God", and Gendo equates the latter with HIP in #21. I've rolled around the idea that, yet again, we're dealing with terminology and concepts that can take on multiple meanings, in that different kinds of complementation can yield different "paths" for evolving into "god(s)". It might be expected, considering the element of opposition between Gendo and Seele.

Re: "gods" and Seele, creating a singular, pure entity with all variation ironed out is, in a sense, the polar opposite of a "like Angels, but better!" scenario. With ATFs maintained and all individuals having the power of the FoL at their disposal, "individuality" could take on a whole new level of meaning. Very different modes of kami, at any rate.

:goes to chew:

[Blader5489]

What typo, where?

You said "Gendo has gone with her", but we know Yui went alone (which was the "last item" on your list).

Part of the "inspiration" was Gendo sticking Adam into Rei and telling her, "complement your imperfect heart". I was like, "Ooo. Forbidden fusion. Lilith. Adam. Fruit of Knowledge. Fruit of Life. Complementary elements brought together = complementation!"

I still haven't been able to make sense of that line, but for what it's worth, whenever I hear/read it, my brain makes the connection to SEELE 'requesting' Shinji to "complement mankind with your imperfect ego."

I'm not sure if there is a connection between the two lines, I just think of the latter whenever I hear/read the former.

Squashing all souls together into one yields a "god". Complementing the two Fruits with one another yields a "god". CI 6-C forwards an "equals relationship" between "human evolution" and "The Path to God", and Gendo equates the latter with HIP in #21. I've rolled around the idea that, yet again, we're dealing with terminology and concepts that can take on multiple meanings, in that different kinds of complementation can yield different "paths" for evolving into "god(s)". It might be expected, considering the element of opposition between Gendo and Seele.

Ah, I see. So basically, it's the transitive property (if A=B and B=C, then A=C).

I have to disagree. The nature of kami in NGE carries many different connotations. We have the Angels described as gods, the FAR, Adam, a 'completed' Eva-01, etc. We know that the god SEELE wants to make is Adam Kadmon, whereas Gendo would rather make an FoL + FoK god that he control (and the same goes for Yui). I don't think the two are related, or else SEELE wouldn't have been pissed over Yui obtaining an S2 engine, nor would SEELE concoct a scenario that eliminates all egos.

Also don't forget that humans, individually, can't become gods (which is probably why SEELE chose to pursue the creation of Adam Kadmon; if people can't become individual gods, then the next best thing would be to combine everyone into a single god). 13-D of the CI states that a god would be able to expand an ATF without restriction. If humans try to do this, their egos will collapse and they'll revert to LCL to anyway.

I think the main problem I have with this idea of humans being reborn with both Fruits is that Yui never really states this. In fact, she states quite the opposite, telling Fuyutsuki that it's both easy and inevitable for people to die; Yui just wants to stick around to become humanity's floating tombstone (similar to the Voyager 2, which I mentioned earlier). Not to mention Yui's personal philosophy of "As long as you live, Heaven can be anywhere." That little optimistic tidbit seems kind of pointless if people can be reborn as gods.

[Reichu]

A thought that came to mind.

For Seele, Red Earth = Purification.

For Gendo...

Episode #12

FUYUTSUKI:
The South Pole, a world of death which permits no life to exist.
Or should I simply call it Hell?

IKARI:
Nevertheless, we, mankind, are here.
We're living things, and we're alive.

FUYUTSUKI:
That's because we're under the protection of science.

IKARI:
Science is the power of man.

FUYUTSUKI:
That arrogance is what caused the tragedy of fifteen years ago,
the Second Impact. And here is the end result.
This is a greater punishment than we deserve.
This is truly the Dead Sea.

IKARI:
Yet this is a world that has been purified, purged of the original sin.

FUYUTSUKI:
I'd prefer a world where people live, no matter how stained with sin.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the South Pole generally considered Adam's little attempt at an Earth makeover? If so, Gendo's basically saying that an environment retooled by Adam and rendered inhospitable to Lilith-based lifeforms is "pure" and "purged of original sin".

The "Red Earth" wouldn't seem to be the same thing.

[Blader5489]

Not necessarily. Their conversation is only about the state of living beings in the South Pole, and not the altered environment. If original sin in NGE is our status as being the "false successors" then, logically, an area free of human life would, by association, be purified of sin.

Fuyutsuki would rather live in a world of people, no matter how "stained with sin", so he views any area that's been purged of human life as a "world of death." Gendo and SEELE, on the other hand, consider such an area to be purified of sin for that very reason: a world free of people is a world free of sin. This matches up with the nature of the Red Earth Purification Ceremony being a misogi (it also works when reconciled with SEELE's deleted line from #24': "Now, let us invest a soul in Lilith and cleanse this impure world."). So for SEELE and Gendo, eliminating everyone's physical forms is purification: SEELE sees it as the precursor to our rebirth as a god, whereas Gendo sees it as a precursor to a "new beginning" for humanity.

[Magami No ER]

So for SEELE and Gendo, eliminating everyone's physical forms is purification: SEELE sees it as the precursor to our rebirth as a god, whereas Gendo sees it as a precursor to a "new beginning" for humanity.
Could you perhaps go into more detail on this difference in your idea of how they view the idea of elminating human's(all living creatures?) physical forms with the seeds of life that created man/shito and man's own creation, evas, to the laggards such as myself?^^;
<I apologize for the run-on sentence, but sometimes they're more fun to type>
I'm very well aware of the differences in their ultimate goals, however.

[Blader5489]

Could you perhaps go into more detail on this difference in your idea of how they view the idea of elminating human's(all living creatures?) physical forms with the seeds of life that created man/shito and man's own creation, evas, to the laggards such as myself?^^;
<I apologize for the run-on sentence, but sometimes they're more fun to type>
I'm very well aware of the differences in their ultimate goals, however.

I don't their views are different in eliminating the physical forms of all humans, since there's only one way to do it: dissolve all ATFs. Both Gendo and SEELE want to reduce everyone's bodies into LCL so as to free all human souls. What happens to those souls afterwards is what separates Gendo and SEELE's ultimate goals.

[Magami No ER]

That's what I thought, maybe I just read too much into what you had written(it's been a bit hard for me to get back on the ball.) Thank you.

[Reichu]

I think at this point I can say I REALLY have no idea what's going on. But a couple of things.

From here (http://animenation.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5879080&postcount=90):

You said "Gendo has gone with her", but we know Yui went alone
She took the Spear (which is a living thing with a "will") with her; ergo, she did not go alone. By my reading, she never technically says that she has gone alone, either. It's a conditional: "If she alone can go on living, by herself… It will be very lonely, but as long as she exists…" "She will be the eternal proof that people existed." (Fuyutsuki's line is literally, "Proof that people existed will remain forever.") "Accompaniment" is not denied (she even has a companion everyone can see), but a testament to the existence of H. sapiens is guaranteed by her continued existence.

Also, need I point out, the state of "loneliness" is not dependent on the absolute absence of others.

Plus, if, as you say, the only thing Yui is going to do is float out in space until the end of time, why did she take the Spear with her? (And what's your take on why she "petrified" upon departure, but is purple again later, and with ... hair to boot?)

As for the Gendo thing... Out of curiosity, what do you think happened to him? He is visited by Yui (and reacts to her appearance rather matter-of-factly), with Kaworu and then Rei joining in. Right after the cut where Rei appears, Gendo is suddenly being held in the left hand of a "freaky EVA-01", appearing against a red backdrop, who chomps down. Back in Heaven's Door, the lower half of Gendo's body is standing, with viscera hanging out and a severed spine, and his glasses lay on the floor a short distance away.

FWIW, Gendo doesn't appear in the "keepsake photo" of the cast we see later on (neither do Yui, Kozo, or Kaworu, for that matter). But, at the end of #26, he *is* there with the rest of the cast (sans Kaworu), and standing by Yui's side.

Also, you say that with Gendo's plans, Instrumentality is "not included". Then have you found a way to account for his words here?

Episode #26

TEXT:
That was the beginning of the instrumentality of people
What people are lacking
The loss in their hearts
In order to fill that void in their hearts
The instrumentality of hearts and souls begins
Returning all things to nothingness
The instrumentality of people had begun

IKARI:
No, it is not that we are returning to nothingness.
We are only restoring everything to its original state.
We are only returning to our mother, who has been lost to this world.
All souls will become one and find eternal peace.
That is all there is to it.

MISATO:
And that's the Instrumentality Project?

I guess he DOES tell Rei to bring all souls together, or into one, too.

And, since you love quoting the damn thing so much ;) ...

CI, 5-D
Gendo's goals, like Seele's, are the annihilation of the Angels and the Human Instrumentality Project –- but, for him, this means reuniting with the deceased Yui.

[Blader5489]

She took the Spear (which is a living thing with a "will") with her; ergo, she did not go alone. By my reading, she never technically says that she has gone alone, either. It's a conditional: "If she alone can go on living, by herself… It will be very lonely, but as long as she exists…" "She will be the eternal proof that people existed." (Fuyutsuki's line is literally, "Proof that people existed will remain forever.") "Accompaniment" is not denied (she even has a companion everyone can see), but a testament to the existence of H. sapiens is guaranteed by her continued existence.

I'm not quite sure what you're arguing about here. My original point was that you indicated that Yui traveled elsewhere by herself, but then (in the same post) you stated that Gendo went with her, which would fulfill the idea of Yui going it alone. That's where my confusion came from.

And Fuyutsuki and Yui make it pretty clear that Yui is the one acting as a testament to humanity's existence (since both Yui and Eva-01 have human origins, whereas the Spear does not). If Gendo was with her, wouldn't he also be considered a testament like her?

Also, need I point out, the state of "loneliness" is not dependent on the absolute absence of others.

Of course not. However, EoE makes it pretty obvious that no matter what Yui is going to do in space, she's doing it by herself.

Plus, if, as you say, the only thing Yui is going to do is float out in space until the end of time, why did she take the Spear with her? (And what's your take on why she "petrified" upon departure, but is purple again later, and with ... hair to boot?)

If you notice, only the mask was petrified. My take was that, as a result of it's transformation, it flew off, revealing a full head of hair underneath.

I'm not sure why she took the Spear with her, but the whole point for Yui to float away is to essentially immortalize the memory of mankind. The S2 engine was needed so that Yui could live off an infinite energy supply, but that doesn't make her invincible. Since Yui can apparently wield the Spear as a weapon (maybe that's why the FAR designed it to knock out an SoL before it reaches god-status? Because if an SoL does become a god, it can control the Spear?), I imagine it would prove as something of an extra defense.

As for the Gendo thing... Out of curiosity, what do you think happened to him? He is visited by Yui (and reacts to her appearance rather matter-of-factly), with Kaworu and then Rei joining in. Right after the cut where Rei appears, Gendo is suddenly being held in the left hand of a "freaky EVA-01", appearing against a red backdrop, who chomps down. Back in Heaven's Door, the lower half of Gendo's body is standing, with viscera hanging out and a severed spine, and his glasses lay on the floor a short distance away.

But like I said earlier, that can't be the real Yui/Kaworu/Rei/Eva-01 - it's just the Reis manifesting themselves as such. So obviously, he was complemented. There's no reason to think he went with Yui since he doesn't appear at all after he gets ripped in half (if he was going with her, wouldn't we have seen him with her at the end? Or at least have Yui make some acknowledgment as to someone else being with her?).

Also, you say that with Gendo's plans, Instrumentality is "not included". Then have you found a way to account for his words here?
<snip>

I honestly don't know what to make of that, as it pretty much contradicts everything we know about Gendo, along with his partnership with Fuyutsuki.

And, since you love quoting the damn thing so much ;) ...

CI, 5-D
Gendo's goals, like Seele's, are the annihilation of the Angels and the Human Instrumentality Project –- but, for him, this means reuniting with the deceased Yui.

Right, Gendo's goal is the HIP, which for him means reuniting with Yui. This fits in with what the show tells us, and how all Gendo wants is a reunion with Yui (and a "new beginning") as opposed to what SEELE wants, which is evolving mankind into a god. There's also the part in #24', where SEELE remarks that Gendo wants to reopen Pandora's Box (= Third Impact) and then close it before Hope (= Instrumentality) can appear.

Personally, I think in terms of solving the show's "mysteries", the TV ending should be thrown out. They're pretty much rendered obsolete in the wake of EoE. When you consider that #25' and #26' were the true scripts for the show's ending, and #25 and #26 were merely ones that Gainax created on the spot (and given their hellish production schedule, I don't think keeping continuity was a top priority - Anno pretty much admits that he abandoned the show's plot for #25 and #26 so he could give us one final examination of the characters), I personally believe that the TV ending should not be used as a reliable source of information for these types of matters.

[Reichu]

If you notice, only the mask was petrified.
"O RLY?"

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C445A.gif

The helmet is the part that "cracks up", but all of her goes grey, not unlike the harpies earlier. (The script does literally say "petrify".)

My take was that, as a result of it's transformation, it flew off, revealing a full head of hair underneath.
The hair remains a giant conundrum to me.

maybe that's why the FAR designed it to knock out an SoL before it reaches god-status?
You make it sound like that part of the CI can be decisively interpreted or something. :ph34r:

Because if an SoL does become a god, it can control the Spear?
Does that mean Yui is a SoL? :P

But like I said earlier, that can't be the real Yui/Kaworu/Rei/Eva-01 - it's just the Reis manifesting themselves as such.
Why do you think it's "just the Reis manifesting themselves as such"? Gendo seems to be getting a rather special treatment, with rather unique results. He treats the Yui who appears AS Yui, and we're given nothing to negate this. When Rei appears, she appears in ADDITION to Yui and Kaworu. And, need I mention, the three of them form NGE's honorary 'divinity trinity'.

Right, Gendo's goal is the HIP, which for him means reuniting with Yui.
I think you're taking that the wrong way. "Reunion with Yui" is "what's in it for him". It's still "Human Instrumentality"; why would it be called that if none was involved? That doesn't make any sense, eh?

There's also the part in #24', where SEELE remarks that Gendo wants to reopen Pandora's Box (= Third Impact) and then close it before Hope (= Instrumentality) can appear.
Haven't heard this interpretation before. Explain?

Personally, I think in terms of solving the show's "mysteries", the TV ending should be thrown out.
It provides information that isn't present in EoE. No can do.

Anno pretty much admits that he abandoned the show's plot for #25 and #26 so he could give us one final examination of the characters)
Sauce plzkthx.

I personally believe that the TV ending should not be used as a reliable source of information for these types of matters.
"For these types of matters"? How do you decide when it's "okay" to reference it and when it isn't?

Remember: In the end, we're all a bunch of fanwankers. And we're standing in one, big circle around a little imp named Anno, aiming but seldom being sure whether or not we actually land a hit.

On a slightly random note, I felt compelled to transrate the original text from this (http://www.evacommentary.org/images_misc/cardgame_h17_ikari-yui.jpg) (part of a stash I scored at Otakon).

Yui Ikari [Hokan (Complementation) - H-17]

The Human Instrumentality Project – it is but the sole means of taking humanity to the next stage. Indeed, Yui Ikari may have considered it. So, is this why she volunteered for the experiment and her soul remained inside the Eva? As her dying wish compelled people, human complementation was at last being guided to its fulfillment seven years hence.

Second sentence is obviously dodgy and needs medical attention. The part about "her dying wish compelling/moving people" also confuses me.

BTW, do you realize that the more NGE crap gets translated, the more debates will degenerate into citation matches?

"hi, i had a question about teh show, wat was hapening in that episode with the evas and the angles?"
"Well, the theatrical program says this."
"However, the Classified Information says this."
"But Evangelion Chronicle says--"
"Here's something that was written on the back of an action figure box!"
"Screw all of you, the card game says..."
"Did anyone look at the Newtype Filmbook's checkpoints? Or Eva tomo no kai?"
"No need. In an interview from an obscure Japanese film magazine of no consequence, Masayuki expressed his opinions on..."
"This is scribbled on a production drawing I obtained via the black market."
"But Yamashita's comments regarding that drawing in Sore o nasumono clearly indicate..."
"That's irrelevant. Here's a quote from an Animage article that was translated from Japanese to Spanish to Finnish to Sanskrit to English."
"Why are you guys going to so much trouble? It's in the storyboards, RIGHT HERE!"
"You morons. I could have told you all of that just by watching the show. DUBBED."

[DarthMigit]

The helmet is the part that "cracks up", but all of her goes grey, not unlike the harpies earlier. (The script does literally say "petrify".)

I love that scene! It always brings a little warmth to the cold hunk of lead in the centre of my chest.

I always imagined that that the petrification was a result of the evas souls being removed/implemented. The first part of the harpies to fade is their core, then the rest of them follows suit.

Rei was present at the implementation of every human being, she was also present at unit 01's side the second it faded into petrification. Surely she was setting free the soul trapped within it? Effectively allowing the Eva to finally "die"? The same going for the harpies, not destroyed I feel, but dead, their souls implemented.

I can not explain the return of unit 01's colour or the silver hair. Perhaps after that scene with Fuyustki, Yui returns to unit 01 "re-animating" it and manifesting herself as the silver hair. Deciding to remain forever within the Eva as proof of humanity's existance rather than be given the chance to return to human form.

Kindly pick my theory to peices, nnnnnnnnnnnnnow. Are you listening Reichu? :naughty:

[Reichu]

"Implementation"? As in, "The Human Implementality Project"?

The same going for the harpies, not destroyed I feel, but dead, their souls implemented.
They died after they skewered themselves on their Spears earlier and squeed with girly corgasms.

I can not explain the return of unit 01's colour or the silver hair. Perhaps after that scene with Fuyustki,
...which happened in 2003, BTW.

Kindly pick my theory to peices, nnnnnnnnnnnnnow. Are you listening Reichu? :naughty:
Eh? I'm sorry, what was the question? No, this pregnant Eva erotica isn't for you. If you want to see it, send me an e-mail admitting you have a fetish, and I'll consider the possibility.

[DarthMigit]

"Implementation"? As in, "The Human Implementality Project"?

Yeah yeah laugh it up, but that isn't the first time i've heard it said that way. From this day forward I shall always refer to it a such just to irritate you, so ha!

They died after they skewered themselves on their Spears earlier and squeed with girly corgasms.

No...they were only petrified aftarwards, when the lances were destroyed. I believe the lances were a stopper, to keep the souls within the evas whilst everyone else was IMPLEMENTED. Because the Evas were required intact for instrumentalilty to progress for some reason. As soon as the lances were blown up into LCL, that is when the Evas were petrified.

...which happened in 2003, BTW.

It's a flashback to describe her train of thought! I mean come on!

I'm sorry, what? I was busy drawing pregnant Eva erotica, just for you.

Wrap it in black and send it unmarked to my PO Box.

[Reichu]

Yeah yeah laugh it up, but that isn't the first time i've heard it said that way.
Whoever else said it that way needs to be paddled on the bottom.

No...they were only petrified aftarwards, when the lances were destroyed.
Yes. But they were dead the entire time. D-E-D dead.

I believe the lances were a stopper, to keep the souls within the evas whilst everyone else was IMPLEMENTED.
If you want to keep a soul inside an Eva, you leave the core alone. You DON'T have her drive a giant stick through it until it fractures and she dies in corgasmic bliss.

The latter, however, is probably a good way to liberate the soul.

And just so nobody forgets, petrification is not a normal thing. We see this in EoE, and it's not really explained what the heck it means. Plus for whatever reason, it doesn't stop the Eva Series from bleeding once their heads spontaneously fall off.

[DarthMigit]

If you want to keep a soul inside an Eva, you leave the core alone. You DON'T have her drive a giant stick through it until it fractures and she dies in corgasmic bliss.

Ah, but would leaving the core alone have protected their souls from liberation during the third impact? Me thinks not.

And before the petrifcation they were dead. But afterwards they were D-E-A-D dead, as in irrepairably dead, kaput, gone for good, bye-bye Miss Eva you is utterly corpseified. As they say in my country, she is an ex-eva. Their task done, the little whale head evas were finally laid to rest without a hope of being repaired or recovered...awwww.

[TS-Scorpio]

Almighty Reichu..No I am not licking your feet...I am desperate... really desperate..so please answer my doubt...I am serious in here... really panicking!!!

I saw a few minutes ago a amv of evangelion..at first I didnt gave a much importance, since I spend my days in you tube...and well this Amv had some schoking imagery.. not image.. sequences of evangelion.. that I never saw..And noo I am not talking about that hentai episode...soo I was like... could you please telll me where does this animations go.. because the episodes dont have it, the movies dont have it.. so it must be a game..but I thought i was that raising project of Rei or that evangelion game for ps2 but I think it isnt, soo could you please tell me where? does this sequences are? I really mean it...I cant find them anywhere.

please...;_; I am scared you will understand when in the last part of the amv and in the all the sequences with Rei, I never saw some of them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb3COCGUuZg

Ps I hope I dint opened pandora box.. seriously it has to be game.

I probably could identify it, but the link isn't working.

[TS-Scorpio]

Describe them and I'll see what I can do.

[Reichu]

Defiled one, that doesn't bear even the slightest resemblance of having anything to do with this thread. -_-;

[Defiled one]

sorry...i will delete them and post in a separate topic..-_-;

[DarthMigit]

Defiled one, that doesn't bear even the slightest resemblance of having anything to do with this thread. -_-;

I agree, therefore Reichu I demand the next in your line of sarcastic and agressively witty -yet futile- attempt at breaking my will.

I DEMAND AN ANSWER!

[Soluzar]

I DEMAND AN ANSWER!
I demand something that actually resembles a credible argument, but I'm not about to get it. Actually, the term "demand" implies that I care, which would be entirely incorrect, but the fact remains that your arguments aren't based on the observed facts.

[Blader5489]

The helmet is the part that "cracks up", but all of her goes grey, not unlike the harpies earlier. (The script does literally say "petrify".)

I don't have the screencap handy, but can't you see parts of Eva-01 colored grey when she's floating in space?

The hair remains a giant conundrum to me.

Isn't it obvious? After a decade of trying to save and evolve (?) all of mankind, Yui finally gets a little time to herself to do her hair.

Does that mean Yui is a SoL? :P

I'd say, in terms of power, she's beyond an SoL (i.e. the "god status" that the the Spear was designed to prevent). She has both Fruits and she wields the Spear as a weapon, while Adam and Lilith have one Fruit each and are aren't exactly simpatico with the Spear.

Why do you think it's "just the Reis manifesting themselves as such"?

Because everyone else in the world is being visited the Reis, why wouldn't Gendo (especially when you consider that his visitors can't possibly exist in that place)?

Gendo seems to be getting a rather special treatment, with rather unique results. He treats the Yui who appears AS Yui, and we're given nothing to negate this.

Fuyutsuki asks, "Ikari, can you finally see Yui too?" We know that the Yui visiting Ikari is a Rei in disguise, so the fact that Fuyutsuki is saying "too" would imply that Gendo is also seeing a Rei disguised as Yui.

Also, to quote EvaOtaku's FAQ :
As the Cardass Masters Card says, "All life was drawn indiscriminately into the world desired by the medium/avatar Shinji." With Shinji's request, "I wish everyone would just die.", the anti AT Field spread from Lilith. It was an "indiscriminate" effect that bound everyone together at Shinji's will. All life was to become one, Gendo included.

When Rei appears, she appears in ADDITION to Yui and Kaworu.

Which, as I mentioned before, is impossible because every person in that scene (sans Gendo) is off doing something else.

I think you're taking that the wrong way. "Reunion with Yui" is "what's in it for him". It's still "Human Instrumentality"; why would it be called that if none was involved? That doesn't make any sense, eh?

Is that how the original Japanese is supposed to read? You're interpretation makes more sense (aside from the fact that it completely blows my theory apart ;)), but I'm just wondering if there was some nuance in the original language that suggests the HIP for Gendo is both evolution and reunion with Yui (as opposed to SEELE, where the HIP is just evolution).

Haven't heard this interpretation before. Explain?

Well... that's pretty much it. :P

In #24', SEELE tells Kaworu about how Gendo is trying to obtain power equal to God (probably something to do with "the forbidden fusion of Adam and Lilith") and that he wants to reopen Pandora's Box but close it before Hope can appear. Kaworu asks if "this" is the Lilim's hope, and the monoliths basically say that "this" is their hope, which is being substantiated by Adam and Lilith.

If "Hope" refers to mankind's evolution into a god, then the opening of Pandora's Box (which is the incident that releases the calamities preceding Hope) would refer to Third Impact, which is a calamity in and of itself.

Sauce plzkthx.

"You know I can't do that." :P

I'll look around for it.

"For these types of matters"? How do you decide when it's "okay" to reference it and when it isn't?

Well, if both Yui and Gendo wanted complementation, then my original point is moot. However, like I pointed out, the TV ending was rushed and the scripts were not the original ending that Anno-tachi had created to end NGE, which is why I felt they weren't 100% reliable in trying to figure what's actually going on.

On a slightly random note, I felt compelled to transrate the original text from this (http://www.evacommentary.org/images_misc/cardgame_h17_ikari-yui.jpg) (part of a stash I scored at Otakon).

Yui Ikari [Hokan (Complementation) - H-17]

The Human Instrumentality Project – it is but the sole means of taking humanity to the next stage. Indeed, Yui Ikari may have considered it. So, is this why she volunteered for the experiment and her soul remained inside the Eva? As her dying wish compelled people, human complementation was at last being guided to its fulfillment seven years hence.

Second sentence is obviously dodgy and needs medical attention. The part about "her dying wish compelling/moving people" also confuses me.

I'm still hoping that somebody, at some point in time, will be able to host translations of the NGE cards. God knows that they can definitely provide useful info.

Anyway, here's my interpretation of the last sentence: the "dying wish" that is compelling people = Yui's 'accident' compelling Gendo and Fuyutsuki to pursue the Path to God (officially proposed as the HIP). The part it being "guided to its fulfillment" probably relates to GEHIRN being transformed into NERV, whose purpose was to initiate the HIP. That would match up with the "seven years hence" part, since Yui's 'death' was in 2003 and GEHIRN was reformed into NERV in 2010.

This still some things that aren't adding up, here. If Gendo and Yui also wanted complementation, what was with Gendo's lines to SEELE in #25' ("Humans should evolve into a new world"; "Death gives birth to nothing"; etc)? Why would Yui be targeted for assassination if her goals were the same as SEELE's? How does Fuyutsuki fit into the love triangle between Gendo, Yui, and SEELE? And doesn't the idea of complementation contradict Fuyutsuki and Yui's beliefs of "as long as you live, everywhere can be heaven"?

The only possible thing I can think of is that Yui's "dying wish" had something to do with creating a "bright future" for mankind, and Gendo misconstrued this as complementation.

[Reichu]

I don't have the screencap handy, but can't you see parts of Eva-01 colored grey when she's floating in space?

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-m26/m26_C459_sho-se-up.jpg

Just some patches on the "backpack", and you can see that the entry plug ain't there no more.

Isn't it obvious? After a decade of trying to save and evolve (?) all of mankind, Yui finally gets a little time to herself to do her hair.
http://www.evacommentary.org/images_capdoc/reichu_hair-club.jpg

I'd say, in terms of power, she's beyond an SoL (i.e. the "god status" that the the Spear was designed to prevent).
Again, always remember that even a native Japanese speaker said that CI entry was written intentionally so that it wouldn't make any sense. Any sense you want to make out of it is only hypothetical.

She has both Fruits and she wields the Spear as a weapon, while Adam and Lilith have one Fruit each and are aren't exactly simpatico with the Spear.
One-Fruiters have no problem wielding the Spear as a weapon.

Because everyone else in the world is being visited the Reis, why wouldn't Gendo (especially when you consider that his visitors can't possibly exist in that place)?
Why not?

Which, as I mentioned before, is impossible because every person in that scene (sans Gendo) is off doing something else.
It's impossible that Rei has joined in ALONGSIDE Yui and Kaworu because... wha?

Remember, Rei can't exist in billions of places at once because she's the giant white naked thing looming high over the ruins of Hakone.

Gendo's fate sticks out like a penguin on a subway car from the previous bunch we'd seen. Nothing about his case comes across to you as being untenably weird? http://www.evacommentary.org/forums/images/smiles/ehh.gif

[Reichu]

Is that how the original Japanese is supposed to read? You're interpretation makes more sense (aside from the fact that it completely blows my theory apart ;)), but I'm just wondering if there was some nuance in the original language that suggests the HIP for Gendo is both evolution and reunion with Yui (as opposed to SEELE, where the HIP is just evolution).

From what Reichu can gather: "Gendo, like Seele, aims for <this and this>, but the reality of it (the real deal behind that, the story behind the story, etc.) is that he's aiming for <this>." Killing Angels and HIP = means to an end that is uniquely Gendo's. Anything else you read into it is yours.

You might want to consider lurning some Moonspeak, BTW, since you're so into this batshit crazy interpretation stuff. I mean, it's the only way to exist. :ph34r:

Kaworu asks if "this" is the Lilim's hope, and the monoliths basically say that "this" is their hope, which is being substantiated by Adam and Lilith.
but seele no wanna use power of teh adam amirite?

I'm still hoping that somebody, at some point in time, will be able to host translations of the NGE cards.
"Translate them in the first place", don't you mean? (You have any IDEA how many of those goddam cards there are?)

God knows that they can definitely provide useful info.
But it's not as if we really need more vague NGE-scripture to argue relentlessly over. :P "Useful info" usually = "cipher that can be interpreted multiple ways".

This still some things that aren't adding up, here.
<insert stock Reichu response> ;)

The only possible thing I can think of is that Yui's "dying wish" had something to do with creating a "bright future" for mankind, and Gendo misconstrued this as complementation.
Fuyutsuki agreed with ideas of Yui's that weren't consistent with those of Seele's.
When Gendo is talking to Fuyutsuki in #14, he refers to "our scenario". Fuyutsuki sticks by Gendo's side to the bitter end, so that makes enough sense.
In #24, Gendo talks to Yui in her Cage and speaks of "our wishes" and "our hopes".
And stuff.

[Ornette]

I'm still hoping that somebody, at some point in time, will be able to host translations of the NGE cards. God knows that they can definitely provide useful info.
There was this: http://www.tesuji.org/nge_ccg_scans/ but it's incomplete and it looks like not everything was translated (plus translations on some things are kinda sketchy)

[Reichu]

On most of the cards, beneath the header and the "rules", there is a variable amount of a small text that has nothing to with the game itself, but is about the actual show. This is the content that most interests the hardcore, but, of course, it's what DOESN'T get translated by those who just want to play the card game -- and in the images you link to above, the text is omitted altogether. (Not all of the "English version" card scans I've seen do this.) So, yeah, none of those translate any of the "important" stuff, although they show off how many of the damn buggers there are...

Whoever did the JPEG-compression on those sheets you found needs to be shot, BTW. ;)

[Blader5489]

I'll make the 'big reply' tomorrow, but just a quick question for Reichu: what does the text on the left side of the Yui card say? Or, if that's the part you translated, then what's on the right?

[Reichu]

what does the text on the left side of the Yui card say? Or, if that's the part you translated, then what's on the right?

Didn't do the right, since it was just paraphrasing her speech from the end of #26'. But whatever.

TOP: Hokan (Complementation) ... LV 1
HEADER: Yui Ikari
RULE: Matters not to I
SMALL TEXT: The Human Instrumentality Project – it is but the sole means of taking humanity to the next stage. Indeed, Yui Ikari may have considered it. So, is this why she volunteered for the experiment and her soul remained inside the Eva? As her dying wish compelled people, human complementation.was at last being guided to its fulfillment seven years hence.

TOP: Hokan (Complementation) ... LV 2
HEADER: But Eva can live forever, together with the human soul that dwells within her.
RULE: Ditto.
SMALL TEXT: People can only live on this planet, but Eva can live forever. Although the Earth, the Moon, and even the Sun will be lost, as long as Eva lives, she will forever remain proof of people's existence.

It's the same card, BTW, just different sides. The "Hokan" cards (which have card game-exclusive illustrations on one side) are unique in this regard.