What Gendou said to Ritsuko: Solved? (seriously)

[Shin-seiki]

As I've spent a lot of time watching, and re-watching, Evangelion, one thing that I've started to really notice is the way that the director Anno goes out of his way to link scenes that have some thematic or plot-related connection by including subtle (and not-so-subtle) visual cues, as hints to the audience to make the intended connection in their mind. That is, you notice in scene A some paticular detail that makes you pause, and go 'hmm, where have I seen this before'; you then go back and look at scene B, and say 'aha!', as as you see the same detail, which usualy indicates that scene B involves some plot point which turns out to be relevant to scene A. Anno resorts to this technique over and over, throughout the series; indeed the entire series is, in a sense, woven together this way. It is especially noticeable in the way that scenes in EoE often reference the new or modified scenes in the Director's Cut episodes.
It has been my experience that most, if not all, of the most cryptic scenes in EVA can be be 'solved' by availing myself of the hints and clues that Anno provides in this manner. The most imfamous 'unsolvable' mystery in EVA is, of course, 'What does Gendou say to Ritsuko?': It is my contention that there is, in fact, one of these visual references in the scene, which ties it to a relevant scene in Ep23', in a way that may at least give us a hint at what Gendou actually said, and what Ritsuko was thinking when she said "Liar..."
First, tho, in order to establish in your minds the necessary context of Anno's directoral technique that I'm talking about, allow me to offer a couple examples:

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Kitchen_Montage.jpg
This little montage illustrates the rather obvious (and, in terms of its significance to the story, hugely important) connection between the scene in Ep24' where Shinji tells Asuka that Kaji is dead, the shot in D&R where we see Asuka's devastated reaction to that news, and the 'Kitchen Scene' during the Instrumentality Sequence in Ep26'. (Examining the meaning of the connection of these scenes deserves its own topic, which I will get around to one of these days...)

My second example is a case of where they went and modified a scene in the Director's Cut to set up a thematically related scene in EoE. Here is the scene as it originally appears in Ep23:
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Rei_Ep23.jpg

and here is the modified version in Ep23':
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Rei_Ep23'.jpg

People's faces look different in the DC and EoE, it's seems like the characters were subtly re-designed between for the new material...
In the first shot we see Rei looking at herself in the mirror, probably wondering what a person has to do to die and stay dead around here... The important shot is the next one, where Rei gives a very cold, sidelong look at Gendou's glasses. This sets up the scene in Ep25' where Gendou come for Rei down in Terminal Dogma:
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Rei_Ep25'b.jpg

Here we see a similar shot of Rei looking at what's left of her 'other selves' in the Reiquarium. She hears Gendou approaching, and turns to regard him with that same cold, unsympathetic, sidelong look. Gendou is in for a rude surprise, he just doesn't know it yet... The resemblance between these two scenes ,in Ep23' and Ep25', is even more apparent than suggested by these screencaps; if you watch them one after the other the similarities in the way they're edited really stand out.

[Shin-seiki]

Hopefully those examples were sufficient to give you an idea how Anno uses visual concurrences to link scene together. So, let us procede to look at how this applies to Ritsuko and Gendou.
First, let's look at the scene in which Ritsuko is interrogated by SEELE. Here is how it appears in the original Ep23:
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep23_SEELE01.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep23_SEELE02.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep23_SEELE03.jpg

and in Ep23':
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep23'_SEELE01.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep23'_SEELE02.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep23'_SEELE03.jpg

The first thing that stands out in the modified version is the way that the fact that Ritsuko is being forced to stand naked before these leering old farts is emphasized; in the first shot, her distress at this indignity is a bit more apparent. There is simply NO reason (aside from intimidation) for Ritsuko to have to be naked to be interrogated (do I need to point out that they didn't force Fuyutsuki to strip?); this is simply a case of these filthy old geezers availing themselves of the opportunity to scope out the 'action' their erstwhile pal Ikari-kun has been getting.
Here is a comparison of the scene that follows shortly of Ritsuko on the escalator:
(Ep23)
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Escalator_Ep23.jpg

(Ep23')
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Escalator_Ep23'.jpg

In the Ep23 version, Ritsuko's face isn't animated at all; she has the same blank look on her face thru the whole shot. In Ep23', her face is subtly, but very effectively animated. There is a hint of all sorts of dark emotions playing on her face as she contemplates how she has been betrayed and humiliated by Gendou; it looks like she is supressing the urge to scream. (It's hard to capture with screencaps the way her eyebrows are twitching etc; you have to watch the scene to really appreciate how much more effective it is. It anticipates very nicely the way she is going to flip out later in Ep23'...)

[Shin-seiki]

Having thus set the stage, let's take a look now at the scene in Ep25' between Ritsuko and Gendou:

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep25'_Liar01.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep25'_Liar02.jpg
My intent, in composing these two images together, is to suggest that what Gendou may have said at this point was to deny that he had anything to do with her being interrogated by SEELE (which would be, of course, a flat lie).
(on a side note, what is translated as "I truly..." is, in Japanese, "honto ni...", which means 'in reality' or simply 'really'; it is an assumption to suppose that the subject of the 'unspoken' sentence is necessarily the pronoun I...)

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep25'_Liar03.jpg
The look on Ritsuko's face in this reaction shot indicates that she (for a second, at least) is totally taken aback by what Gendou said. Everything that Ritsuko has done, both in Ep23':

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep25'_Liar04.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep25'_Liar05.jpg

not to mention what she has just been up to in Ep25':

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep25'_Liar06.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep25'_Liar07.jpg

has been in reaction to her being f*** over by Gendou, moreover, f*** over in favor of Rei; if that wasn't true, then she has just made, to put it mildly, an enormous *** of herself.
Or, as she herself put it a bit earlier in Ep25':

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep25'_Liar08.jpg

[Shin-seiki]

Ritsuko thinks about it for a sec...
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep25'_Liar09.jpg

(Needless to say, I don't think the apparent concurrence of these two images is a coincidence; it is the point of this whole post that the obvious resemblence, not merely in the expression on her face, but the fact that her face is framed and lit in exactly the same way, is deliberate, and is designed to indicate that she is going back in her mind to what SEELE told her in ep23'.)

and announces whom she believes...
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep25'_Liar10a.jpg

[Shuboltz]

it's convincing.

IMO he lied to ritsuko because rei was there, he wanted rei's favor on him (so that rei will make his ultimate wish come true). though it didn't work out.

too bad, if rei 2 didn't die i want to see what happens in that version. (rei 2 might have a dilemma but since it's rei 3, i knew he would pick shinji over gendo)

i noticed that as time passes, mysteries are solved. tho i don't know for sure -_-;

[Asuka 96018]

I like your reasoning. And I want to see that Asuka & Shinji scene analyzed too. (Examining the meaning of the connection of these scenes deserves its own topic, which I will get around to one of these days...)

[tv33]

I very much like your presentation. It is damn convincing.

However I have only one problem with it. That being, why would Gendo lie? The end has come, he does not need her anymore, he has no reason to lie to her. Whats more, I don't think it is in Gendo's character to lie to spare some ones feelings. Laying to SEELE is no problem, but why lie to Ritsuko? It seems to serve no purpose.

[wacked out theory] That is unless, he really had nothing to do with it. That it is possible SEELE lied to her and fabricated the story that Gendo sent her to fracture the unity of Nerv (It obviously worked). [/wacked out theory]

I am not saying Gnedo would not do such a thing (In fact I don't even think I belive my own little theory), I just find it hard to believe he would lie to Ritsuko to spare her feelings. (That is unless he really cared about her, but I find that even harder to believe)


(Like I said though damn convincing presentation.)

['D']

......Wow.

Very nice, very nice indeed. In fact, you have opened up a whole world to us by letting us in on this scene comparison thing. I't seems that alot of the bigger misterys might be able to be solved using this... Ill have to try it and find out ^_^.

[Siendra]

Well, you've done it again. This is an excellent, well composed and thought out theory. Very convincing aswell.

Keep it up.:cheers:

[GandalfsWhisper]

Wow, that's definatly the best guess at what Gendo said I've ever heard.

[Gundampilotspaz]

What I have drawn from this is Gendo must of said something like "In reality your not Rei's replacement." That is what I think Shin-seiki wanted us to think. Now we know Gendo has compassion from the scean before his death in Ep.26'. So he could be sparing her feelings. But why Rei, what does Rei really matter in the relationship between Ritsuko and Gendo? How could Ritsokui replace Rei? She can't. Looking into facts from Evangelion that are common knowlege I have come to the ultimate decision that Gendo's lasts words to Ritsuko are

"In reality, you were not just Yui's replacement."

Then Ritsuko's last words:

"Lair"

[Shuboltz]

Originally posted by tv33
[wacked out theory] That is unless, he really had nothing to do with it. That it is possible SEELE lied to her and fabricated the story that Gendo sent her to fracture the unity of Nerv (It obviously worked). [/wacked out theory]

but gendo himself told "i'll present something else to the old man of seele. there's no problem". (in the DC scenes... posted above)

unless he meant rei 3 that he wants to present.


----
btw, i also wanted to say what 'D' said.. i'm learning something about anno's trickies now -_-;

[tv33]

Originally posted by Shuboltz
but gendo himself told "i'll present something else to the old man of seele. there's no problem". (in the DC scenes... posted above)

Damn, one of these days I am going to have to learn how to read....-_-;

[saiyajin prince]

Originally posted by Shuboltz
but gendo himself told "i'll present something else to the old man of seele. there's no problem". (in the DC scenes... posted above)

unless he meant rei 3 that he wants to present.



i don't think that SEELE knew about Rei being a clone....


Nice job Shin Seiki!!:cheers:

[Ter'al]

Does renewal include DC scenes?

[Crazy Penguin]

It has both versions.

[Ter'al]

Well theres my reason to import it.

[Shin-seiki]

First off, I would like to thank all of you for your positive feedback on my my humble efforts. I think that the level of discussion is higher and more sophisticated here than on any other EVA-related forum or newsgroup that I've seen, and I like to do my part to keep it that way.Originally posted by Asuka 96018
I like your reasoning. And I want to see that Asuka & Shinji scene analyzed too. Patience, grasshopper... It's in the pipeline, but I have a lot of other presentations like this one lined up (in my mind, that is), so it may take a while before that topic sees the light of day.Originally posted by tv33
I very much like your presentation. It is damn convincing.

However I have only one problem with it. That being, why would Gendo lie? The end has come, he does not need her anymore, he has no reason to lie to her. Whats more, I don't think it is in Gendo's character to lie to spare some ones feelings. Laying to SEELE is no problem, but why lie to Ritsuko? It seems to serve no purpose.

[wacked out theory] That is unless, he really had nothing to do with it. That it is possible SEELE lied to her and fabricated the story that Gendo sent her to fracture the unity of Nerv (It obviously worked). [/wacked out theory]

I am not saying Gnedo would not do such a thing (In fact I don't even think I belive my own little theory), I just find it hard to believe he would lie to Ritsuko to spare her feelings. (That is unless he really cared about her, but I find that even harder to believe)


(Like I said though damn convincing presentation.) tv33 makes a couple good points here. Actually, I'm surprised there wasn't more vigorous attempts from the rest of you to knock holes in this theory; it is far from airtight, and tv33 has zeroed in on two weakness of the argument that have also troubled me since I posted this a few days ago.
For one thing, I'm not really satisfied by the idea that what Gendou said would be such a bald-faced, obvious lie. I can't shake the feeling that there has got to be more to it than that.
Secondly, I think that tv33 is really onto something big with his notion that SEELE was trying to set Ritsuko against Gendou for their own nefarious purposes; that aspect of his theory isn't wacked out at all, but is actually a crucial insight into what is really going on here. (More on that later.)

Any serious attempt at figuring out what Gendou actually says must take into account the following factors:

1) It must be short, and to the point; Gendous 'mouth flaps' last only a couple seconds.

2) It must be something that would credibly produce a reaction like this:

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep25'_Liar03.jpg
In other words, something that would hit her like a ton of bricks, and leave her (momentarily) stunned and speechless...

3) If my theory is correct ( i.e., that there is a subtle visual hint that she is going back in her mind to when SEELE told her "It was none other than Ikari-kun who presented you to us..."), then what Gendou says should be something that would logically predicate her thinking about that, and then saying "Liar".

If we can come up with something to say that meets all these criteria, then I think we may come as close as anyone can hope to definitively solving this 'unsolvable' mystery. But remember what Yuriko Yamaguchi (Ritsuko's seiyuu) said about Gendou's 'unspoken' line: "When it came time to do the voice-over, he (Anno) showed me a single, hidden hint at the last moment._ With that one incredible hint, I, and Ritsuko Akagi, were utterly defeated." That story (if true) kind of sets the bar pretty high for any possible guess at what Gendou says, in other words, it can't be something lame or inane; it has to pack a real punch...

One very important point about the line "Liar" that must be taken into account is that it doesn't necessarily imply that what Gendou said is actually untrue. In connection with that idea, I think it is usefull to go back and take a look at the other big "Liar" moment in the series, which when Shinji tells Asuka that Kaji is dead:

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/DnR-Liar.jpg
This is Asuka's reaction to the line "How many times do I have to say it?! Kaji-san's not here anymore!" by Shinji. Now, what Shinji just said is certainly true; Asuka says "Liar" because it is something too terrible for her mind to accept.
(There is another big "Liar" moment, of course; the one in Ep26' in the Instumentality 'Kitchen Scene', but that may be considered as a reflection of the one in 'real life' in Ep24')

It is instructive, I think, to look at Asuka's "Liar", and Ritsuko's reaction shot side-by- side:
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Asuka-Ritsuko.jpg

I think we should consider that the fact that Asuka and Ritsuko both have the same look on their face may be an indication that something similar is going on on both scenes, namely that they've both just heard something that their minds find impossible to accept.

There is a scene that is incredibly relevant to all of this, that I failed to properly take into account when I formulated my theory as it appears in the initial post; namely the scene in Ep24 where Gendou talks to Ritsuko in her holding cell. This scene is the only time we see any interaction between the two from the time Ritsuko flips out in Ep23 to their final confrontation in Ep25', so it stands to reason that we should scrutinize this scene for any clues as to what is really going on between the two of them.
Let's go thru this scene line by line. I think it usefull to try to look at this scene from Gendou's POV as it plays out:
--
Somewhat disconcertingly, Ritsuko starts off babbling inanely about her cat
Ritsuko: Commander Ikari,
My cat died,
which my grandma had been taking care of.
I hadn't been taking care of it for a long time.
Suddenly now, I cannot see it again.

Gendou brushes that off, and gets to the point:
Gendou: Why did you destroy the Dummy System?

Ritsuko makes no bones about the homicidal intent of her actions
Ritsuko: It's not the Dummy System, but Rei who I destroyed.

Gendou tries again to bring the conversation back 'on-topic'
Gendou: I ask you once more.
Why?!

Ritsuko: Now, I'm not happy even if you hold me.
You can do anything you like to my body,
as you did before.
WTF! Is she on crack?! Does she think that he has dropped by her cell for a little 'Afternoon Delight' or something?!

Gendou: I'm disappointed by you.
His standard line he uses on those (like Shinji in Ep19) who show evidence of having a mind of their own, and an unwillingness to behave like puppets in carrying out his schemes. (I'm surprised he doesn't use it on Rei, when she takes off for Lilith without him in Ep26'...)

Ritsuko: Disappointed?
You have neither expectations nor hopes for me.
I have, nothing, nothing ...
what shall I do, mom.?
Whatever... Gendou must come away from that interview thinking the poor woman has completely lost her mind.
--
Interestingly, there is an absolutely crucial clue contained in this scene that has been staring us all in the face. The part of this scene that is especially revealing to what is going on between the two of them in Ep25' is not Ritsuko's answers, but Gendou's question:

Gendou: Why did you destroy the Dummy System?

Gendou: I ask you once more.
Why?!

Now Gendou isn't stupid; even such a non people-person as he should be able to figure out that the outrageous and humiliating experience she suffered at the hands of SEELE is what set her off...
So... the reason he asks her (twice) why she flipped out is because [drum roll...]
He genuinely doesn't know!

[Shin-seiki]

So, what does that mean?
We know for a fact that Gendou did send Ritsuko to SEELE:

(Ep23)
Gendou: I'll send something else to the old men of SEELE. It's not a problem.

His reason for doing so, while hardly commendable, was certainly understandable; under no circumstances would he allow those wily, wicked old farts a crack at his precious Rei (who was, after all, a bit confused and rattled, having just been reborn yet again as Rei III. Similarly, Misato refused to let SEELE interrogate Shinji).

Therefore, logically we can conclude that it wasn't the fact that Ritsuko was interrogated that escaped his comprehension, but the circumstances under which the interrogation took place that he didn't know about.

In my original post I dimissed the whole business of Ritsuko's humiliation by being stripped as a matter of SEELE being a bunch of dirty old men; I realize now that that is silly, that I, like Gendou, failed to take into account just how clever and fiendish those old creeps were. They're the most powerfull men in the world; they didn't get that way thru any over-abundance of scrupples.
So, Ritsuko suddenly finds herself wisked off, without notice, for an little chat with the big bosses, and, as I indicated above, she looks none too happy with this turn of events, (particularly the naked part):

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep23'_SEELE01.jpg

Then the old men spring their trap:

http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep23'_SEELE03.jpg

Ritsuko is being cleverly, but ruthlessly manipulated here, not by being told a lie, but by being told the truth, because in this situation the truth ("However, it was none other than Ikari-kun that presented you to us...") is much more effective for SEELE's purpose than any lie they could come up with.
She is naturally going to blame Gendou for this outrage (there isn't much point in her blaming SEELE, because they are quite beyond the reach of anything she could do to get back at them; Gendou, on the other hand...)

So, why is SEELE trying to 'flip' Ritsuko, and turn her against Gendou? I suspect that it's because there is something they want to know, and they suspect she might be able to help them out. That some thing was the answer to the question: What became of the "Adam sample' that Kaji delivered to Gendou?
(SEELE, of course, knows perfectly well that the being on the cross in Terminal Dogma is Lilith)
By Ep24' they know the answer:

SEELE 01:
(Speaking to Kaworu)
But 'our' hopes are materializing...

SEELE:
In Lilith, progenitor of humanity - the false successors from the Black Moon...

SEELE:
And in Adam, progenitor of Angels - the true successors from the lost White Moon.

SEELE:
And whose salvaged soul resides only within you...

SEELE 01:
But whose revived body is already inside Ikari.

How did they come by this info? Because they succeeded in 'turning' Ritsuko, and she sang like a bird...

Well, I would like to hear some more feedback from you all on all of this. I think if we put our heads to gether we can solve the mystery of what Gendou actually said. I think, if you take my theory as stated in the previous post, and include the additional factors that I've outlined here, that we're getting pretty close to the truth...

[tv33]

Well, this is all my tiny brain can think of.

1.) As was stated and sheds light on things, Gendo genuinely might not know.

So this could lead to him say "Truly, I did not know." (Referring to the whole SEELE incident)

And we all say well we know that is a possibility. But the liar part is important. Perhaps it hits her like a ton of bricks because she knows it is true. And she has been undermining him the whole time (and was going to blow the place to smithereens).

And as the cold truth sets in, she is awe struck, and unable or unwilling to belive it she says "Liar."

[Gundampilotspaz]

So no one thought my theroy was good:(

[Shuboltz]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
SEELE 01:
But whose revived body is already inside Ikari.

How did they come by this info? Because they succeeded in 'turning' Ritsuko, and she sang like a bird...

if i'm not mistaken, ritsuko was interviewed in ep23 right? kaji died in ep21.

so that means, they have learned that kaji smuggled the adam sample for gendo before the kawrou-seele conversation
Kaji:Besides, it seems they're catching on to the fact that i smuggled the adam sample for commander ikari
but they didn't know what he's gonna do with it. so by following your theory, i think seele learned that adam is inside ikari because of ritsuko. for short, ritsuko sang some infos

we all know that next to fuyutsuki, ritsuko (or maybe rei?) knows what gendo does. i think that is why gendo locked ritsuko in a cell because he doesn't want information to spread.

*kaji's life ended asap when he saved fuyutsuki. i think they were just going easy on him before but they got fed up because of that.

[Reichu]

I'm still wondering, though... What in Helad was the whole point of Ritsuko getting nekkid in front of those dirty old men? If SEELE had gotten to interrogate Shinji or Rei-III, would they have gotten to stand there bare-bottomed, as well?

It's even more suspicious due to my belief that Keel Lorenz is a homosexual, but nevermind that.

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by Reichu
I'm still wondering, though... What in Helad was the whole point of Ritsuko getting nekkid in front of those dirty old men? If SEELE had gotten to interrogate Shinji or Rei-III, would they have gotten to stand there bare-bottomed, as well?

It's even more suspicious due to my belief that Keel Lorenz is a homosexual, but nevermind that. The point was to humiliate and infuriate her, then make her think that Gendou was aparty to it, and use that to alienate her from Gendou...

[tbozfan]

Something about that just dosen't seem to be too convincing.

[Shuboltz]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
The point was to humiliate and infuriate her, then make her think that Gendou was aparty to it, and use that to alienate her from Gendou...

i think it's the same for fuyutsuki, seele wanted people close to gendo to report on his actions. (the scene in which kaji saved fuyutsuki. i think that's like what i see in movies that have one way mirrors)


well i don't think the old guys want fuyutsuki to get naked -_-;

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Shuboltz
well i don't think the old guys want fuyutsuki to get naked -_-;

Well, you never know... Herr Lorenz might. :naughty:

[tv33]

Originally posted by Reichu
Well, you never know... Herr Lorenz might. :naughty:

Off topic, but I always thought the name Lorenz sounded Hebrew (You would be surprised how many names are)

But I was wrong, Herr fits him quite well

LORENZ :
German, patronymic derived from the Christian name Lawrence 'laurel, symbol of victory'; the name became popular due to the affection of the people in the Middle Ages for St. Lawrence deacon of Pope Sixtus II, who was martyred in the third century.


(Well I guess us Germans are now responsible two of the most evil people in history.)

Thought I kind of liked old Lorenz.....

[Reichu]

tv33: Interesting... I wasn't aware that "Lorenz" was yet another Pointless Religious Reference (albeit one in disguise if you're not German). BTW, what do you mean by "us Germans"? Do your ancestors come from the Land of SEELE, too? (I'm part German, anyway... Hard to be 100% anything when you're in the U.S.)

I still wonder why Anno decided to use "Keel" for Lorenz's given, though. Sure, he's got this "ship" motif going on with of the characters' names... but what the hell kind of name is "Keel", even for a Deutschlander?

About the Hebrew names... Yes, they're bloody everywhere!! Even I have one! (And, scarily enough, it means "the lamb of God"... ::|) Most of them give themselves away by ending in either "-el" (sound familiar? ;)) or "-ah". It's actually kind of fun to see how many Hebrew-derived names you can pick out this way...

[tv33]

Originally posted by Reichu
BTW, what do you mean by "us Germans"? Do your ancestors come from the Land of SEELE, too? (I'm part German, anyway... Hard to be 100% anything when you're in the U.S.)

Indeed I am, and -er- am! Where I live has a large German population. Both my parents trace our roots back to fair Deutschland, my fathers side coming to America in 1929 and my mother in side in 1946 (Cant imagine why they left ;))
So off topic.....

Originally posted by Reichu
I still wonder why Anno decided to use "Keel" for Lorenz's given, though. Sure, he's got this "ship" motif going on with of the characters' names... but what the hell kind of name is "Keel", even for a Deutschlander?


I searched the name for its meaning, than to any references in the bible, both came up negative. :(

[Shuboltz]

Originally posted by Reichu
I still wonder why Anno decided to use "Keel" for Lorenz's given, though. Sure, he's got this "ship" motif going on with of the characters' names... but what the hell kind of name is "Keel", even for a Deutschlander?

About the Hebrew names... Yes, they're bloody everywhere!! Even I have one! (And, scarily enough, it means "the lamb of God"... ::|) Most of them give themselves away by ending in either "-el" (sound familiar? ;)) or "-ah". It's actually kind of fun to see how many Hebrew-derived names you can pick out this way...

If lorenz means victory, then keel must be kill! (try yelling at somebody named "keel". it almost sounds like kill.)


so it his name means kill victory. like i thought he was victorious at the end but shinji killed it -_-;

or he was victorious though everyone's dead :dead: :smokin:


------ :lol:

anyways, as for the german stuff my father went to germany ages before i was born and he gave me a second name which he got from his favorite german soccer player heinz.

[Shinigami07]

Watch Episode 24 (the start of) again. The answer is RIGHT there, I PROMISE!

---------------------------------------------------------
Gendou interrogates Ritsuko:

'Why did you destory the Dummy Plug System?'

'Did you know my cat died? I hadn't cared about it for a long time, and now it's gone forever.'

Silence...
'Ill ask you again...'
--------------------------------------------------------

Thus, in EoE:

'Doctor Ritsuko Akagi, the truth is... Im sorry your cat has died...'

Silence...
'You liar...'

*Gunshot*

----------------------------------------------------------

Does it not make sense? I've been supporting this theory for a while, yet no one properly addresses it. Remember, the truth is SO simple, we sometimes pass it off for a greater truth, one that doesn't exist. :P

It doesn't settle with me that Gendou would lie at such a time as that. But you could be right, I dunno :P

Looking forward to more of your discoveries

-Shinigami

[Shuboltz]

Originally posted by Shinigami07
Watch Episode 24 (the start of) again. The answer is RIGHT there, I PROMISE!

---------------------------------------------------------
Gendou interrogates Ritsuko:

'Why did you destory the Dummy Plug System?'

'Did you know my cat died? I hadn't cared about it for a long time, and now it's gone forever.'

Silence...
'Ill ask you again...'
--------------------------------------------------------

Thus, in EoE:

'Doctor Ritsuko Akagi, the truth is... Im sorry your cat has died...'

Silence...
'You liar...'

*Gunshot*

----------------------------------------------------------

Does it not make sense? I've been supporting this theory for a while, yet no one properly addresses it. Remember, the truth is SO simple, we sometimes pass it off for a greater truth, one that doesn't exist. :P

It doesn't settle with me that Gendou would lie at such a time as that. But you could be right, I dunno :P

Looking forward to more of your discoveries

-Shinigami

i just remembered, in a thread a while back somebody mentioned that the cat that died, ritsuko meant that it was kaji.

so i think it's this way:

---------------------------------------------------------
Gendou interrogates Ritsuko:

'Why did you destory the Dummy Plug System?'

'Did you know my cat died? I hadn't cared about it for a long time, and now it's gone forever.'

Silence...
'Ill ask you again...'
--------------------------------------------------------

Thus, in EoE:

'Doctor Ritsuko Akagi, the truth is... I have nothing to do with the cat's death / I didn't kill the cat.'

Silence...
'You liar...'

*Gunshot*

----------------------------------------------------------

Since Gendo didn't kill kaji (in a thread a while back also) gandalf said that it was shinji's teacher who killed him so...

or maybe he meant that he wasn't the one who ordered to kill kaji.

[Reichu]

Sure, I endorse my own share of Wild 'N' Ridiculous Theories (mostly ones of my own devising... :evil: -- better than ... parroting AWL, no?). But I think the whole Kaji/Ritsuko's cat thing is just completely insubstantial. I don't see any connection, nor does there need to be one. Sometimes a cat is just a cat.

[GandalfsWhisper]

Originally posted by Reichu
Sometimes a cat is just a cat.

but a othertimes cat is a secret agent who iregularly rarely shaves.*


*not that I support this theory any way, in my opinion it's illogical and pointless.

[Reichu]

Originally posted by GandalfsWhisper
but a othertimes cat is a secret agent who iregularly rarely shaves.*

Not familiar with such lingo myself... but, even if so, it wouldn't have any bearing in NGE unless they specifically used "KYATTO" (i.e., English "cat" in katakana), since Specialized Alternative Meanings For Common Words generally don't carry over from one language to another (especially languages as totally unrelated as English and Japanese). I don't know for a fact, but I doubt that neko is ever used the way "cat" is above.

[saiyajin prince]

Well, this thread has become like the rest of threads in this forums...:lol::lol:

[Reichu]

Originally posted by saiyajin prince
Well, this thread has become like the rest of threads in this forums...:lol::lol:

What, one where Reichu makes one last post and no one touches it after that? There seem to be an awful lot of those, in my experience... ::cough::

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by Reichu
What, one where Reichu makes one last post and no one touches it after that? There seem to be an awful lot of those, in my experience... ::cough:: Don't worry, I'm not done with this topic yet...

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
Don't worry, I'm not done with this topic yet...

Ah, yes... There is more Shin-seiki Visual Presentation Goodness to come, is there not?

(Still... I wish I could recruit more enthusiasm for the sorts of threads where most of my own NGE inquiries lie. ::sigh:: )

[Goldarmy]

Everyone of us has his own view.

'Doctor Ritsuko Akagi, the truth is... I could have loved you.'

Silence...

'Liar...'

*Gunshot*

[Dr. Nick]

Damn fine work, Shin-Seiki.

But I believe I'm still going to stick with my eternal favorite:

(REVISED VERSION)

Gendo: "Doctor Ritsuko Akagi, the truth is... my kung-fu is better. Dodge this!!!"
Ritsuko: "Liar."
*BANG*
*splash*
Gendo: "See? Itz teh truth, biatch. LOOOL!"

(One other possibility for "dodge this" would have been "ra-ta-ta, yo", but that would've worked only if Gendo had an Uzi.)

[Ter'al]

in the EoE commentary, they mention someone read gendos lips, lol.

[GandalfsWhisper]

Originally posted by Ter'al
in the EoE commentary, they mention someone read gendos lips, lol.

the commentary is full of sh*t.

[Reichu]

Originally posted by GandalfsWhisper
the commentary is full of sh*t.

At least AWL and company actually DIDN'T buy that one.

[Shuboltz]

Originally posted by GandalfsWhisper
*not that I support this theory any way, in my opinion it's illogical and pointless.

p00r cats, they just get ignored *cough* trigun's kureneko *cough*



"the truth is... i'mma virgin"

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Shuboltz
p00r cats, they just get ignored *cough* trigun's kureneko *cough*

Oh, come now. He got one whole track named after him on the "Trigun the Second Donuts Happy Pack" album. ::p And how many other Trigun characters can boast having plushies crafted in their likeness? Eh?

"the truth is... i'mma virgin"

Yes -- Gendou is actually impotent, Viagra has no effect, Shinji had to be conceived via in vitro fertilization, and the only reason Naoko and Ritsuko ever put up with him is because he has "the hands of a dyke".

[tv33]

Originally posted by Reichu
Yes -- Gendou is actually impotent, Viagra has no effect, Shinji had to be conceived via in vitro fertilization, and the only reason Naoko and Ritsuko ever put up with him is because he has *edited for the children*

Such slanderous lies against Gendo-sama will not be tolerated. :|

[Reichu]

Originally posted by tv33
Such slanderous lies against Gendo-sama will not be tolerated. :|

Gendou-sama? Oh dear... :scared:

But did you know that having "the hands of the dyke" is actually a good thing? Gawd knows where I read this, but it's true. So if a girl ever says this to you, just swallow your pride and reply, "Why, thank you, ma'am!"

I bring such education to the forum. ;)

[tv33]

The Great Gendo would not engage in foreplay. He is not the type of person to beat around the bush (So to speak). He gets right to business, without hesitation.

(And there was a reson I put that whole *edited for the children* thing in there ;))

Edit- My God! Look at what we have done to Shin-seiki once illustrious and well thought out thread...

[Reichu]

Originally posted by tv33
The Great Gendo would not engage in foreplay. He is not the type of person to beat around the bush (So to speak). He gets right to business, without hesitation.

Hmm... So that's why Naoko and Ritsuko are such bee-yotches... I was actually going to make a comment about what sorts of uses a divine fetus embedded in one's hand would have in foreplay, but I suppose I ought to keep that to myself... :evil:

(And there was a reson I put that whole *edited for the children* thing in there ;))

::looks again:: Oh! Dear me, how did I miss that? ::p

Edit- My God! Look at what we have done to Shin-seiki['s] once illustrious and well thought out thread...

[puppy eyes] I swear, it wasn't me! [/puppy eyes]

[tv33]

Originally posted by Reichu
Hmm... So that's why Naoko and Ritsuko are such bee-yotches...

Interesting theory, and perhaps one with some merit. Remember Ritsukos whole "I'm not happy, even when you make love to me to" thing?


Originally posted by Reichu

[puppy eyes] I swear, it wasn't me! [/puppy eyes]

How can I find someone innocent who wrote the "Rei Texas chain saw massacre."? ;)

[Reichu]

Originally posted by tv33
Interesting theory, and perhaps one with some merit. Remember Ritsukos whole "I'm not happy, even when you make love to me to" thing?

Ritsuko: ::heavy breathing:: Gendou... Touch me...!
Gendou: You don't want me to, babe. ::pulls off right-hand glove and wiggles fingers::
Ritsuko: ...

Though, oddly enough, Yui doesn't seem like someone who had been depraved in a similar manner (prior to her decade+ of Evangelion celibacy, anyway). I guess she was the one "at the helm" in that relationship. ::evil laughter::

How can I find someone innocent who wrote the "Rei Texas chain saw massacre."? ;)

At least I didn't doctor any images for inclusion with that post. ^_^

Hey, wait... That's a great idea!!...

[saiyajin prince]

Ummm......remember my statement in the last page?:lol::D

But did you know that having "the hands of the dyke" is actually a good thing? Gawd knows where I read this, but it's true. So if a girl ever says this to you, just swallow your pride and reply, "Why, thank you, ma'am!"

gawd knows where indeed...how is it a good thing? Like good luck or something?

[Reichu]

Originally posted by saiyajin prince
how is it a good thing? Like good luck or something?

Erm... I'll tell you via PM. :naughty:

[Gendo Ikari]

hmm...yeah, I seem to have found this topic a little late (but given the average amount of activity I have here, that's pretty much a given for most things I end up posting in -_-) but I'm really amazed by what great points were brought up. As someone said earlier in this thread, this is without a doubt, the most thought out and feasible theories as to what Gendo said that I've heard.

Also, (yes, I'm trying to get this thread back on topic :p) There was a man by the name of Konrad Zacharias Lorenz who was an Austrian psychologist. He actually won the Nobel Prize in 1973 for his studies of Social and individual behavior patterns.

That's just a random thought of where I thought SEELE's Lorenz got his name from (plus, not that it makes much difference, but the first letter of his given name also starts with the letter "K" ^^). To me, at least, it would seem pretty fitting for anyone in Evangelion to be named after a psychologist who studied behavior patterns, as that's certainly a topic Evangelion explores :D

[Shuboltz]

from my dictionary:

Keel n. Timber or steel along the baseline of the ship. v. 1 Overturn. 2 Become tilted.

I think these describes him well and what he had become ;p

[NakedEYE666]

I find that cats have a symbolic significance in a ton of anime.

Still, I don't beleive the cat theory. The virgin theory makes more sense, atleast that would indeed shock Ritsuko.

[saiyajin prince]

Originally posted by Reichu
Erm... I'll tell you via PM. :naughty:

Yeh....I read it, quite interesting in some kind of wierd way. You know wha issue it was from, I friend collects them and I'll get it from him.

[Reichu]

Originally posted by saiyajin prince
Yeh....I read it, quite interesting in some kind of wierd way. You know wha issue it was from, I friend collects them and I'll get it from him.

If I ever rediscover where I read that "hands of a <edited for children>" bit, I'll scan it in for everybody -- how about that? ^_^

[NakedEYE666]

This thread's a classic... or something like that. Someone should save a copy of it.

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by NakedEYE666
This thread's a classic... or something like that. Someone should save a copy of it. Thanx ^_^
As I indicated above, I'm not done with it yet; I just have been too busy lately to put another presentation together...

[HardCore]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
As I indicated above, I'm not done with it yet; just found this thread the other day, bumping in hopes of resurrecting some interest :D

[NakedEYE666]

I can't add anything to the discussion at hand, but it did make me realize the importance of visual animation affects in Evangelion. Very helpful :cheers:

[zharth]

This is incredible. Reminds me of the golden days of my Eva fandom. Unfortunately, I never conclusively finished my research and I just don't have time for it now. But it's reassuring to see others with as much or more dedication as I had. Long live Eva!

[SeannyB]

yeah, thumbs the **** up for Shin-seiki http://animenation.net/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif http://animenation.net/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Sharp-kun]

Originally posted by NakedEYE666
This thread's a classic... or something like that. Someone should save a copy of it.
<---

[NakedEYE666]

Originally posted by zharth
This is incredible. Reminds me of the golden days of my Eva fandom. Unfortunately, I never conclusively finished my research and I just don't have time for it now. But it's reassuring to see others with as much or more dedication as I had. Long live Eva!

Quite true, but you know it's always there for you to finish. Just because it isn't done doesn't mean that it never will be :D

Here's to hoping that Evangelion will last forever :cheers:

[Shuboltz]

Originally posted by NakedEYE666
This thread's a classic... or something like that. Someone should save a copy of it.


Speaking of classic, I think the forums was cleaned up recently and the good ol' threads are gone.


:bawling: :bawling:


Edit: I was wondering why I felt nostalgic for the past few days and I remembered that it's Asuka's b-day tomorrow... yey~ :bday: :cheers:

[Shin-seiki]

It's gratifying to see that there seems to be a constituency for continuing this thread. I'm in the middle of installing a new operating system, so it will take me a few days to get back to normal; beyond that, tho, the reason I haven't been doing any long, involved presentations is that I spend almost all my free time downloading anime. I have lilterally dozens of series downloaded, with more coming in every day. (My ISP, RoadRunner, has an extremely fast news server; I can download a typical 230MB anime episode, coming in at around 200KB/sec, in about 15 minutes.) Ocassionally I even watch some of the stuff I download; right now my fave new series is Last Exile.
Another excuse for not following up was that I wanted to get my hands on all of Renewal, so that I can use that for my screencaps; now that Death and EoE are done, that excuse no longer applies.
I guess I better get to work on this; one reason I posted the first follow-up was that there was a glaring error in my interpretation in the first post. Similarly, there is an error in my follow-up post regarding my interpretation of the scene in ep24 between Ritsuko and Gendou, so I need to do another revision of my theory... Watch this space!

[Dr. Nick]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
I can download a typical 230MB anime episode, coming in at around 200KB/sec, in about 10 minutes.
Well, thanks for ruining my day! :cheers:

30 kBs max... the pain, the pain...

[Sharp-kun]

Originally posted by Shuboltz
Speaking of classic, I think the forums was cleaned up recently and the good ol' threads are gone.
Forums are cleaned up daily by the Admin. Any threads with no posts for a year are deleted.

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Sharp-kun
Forums are cleaned up daily by the Admin. Any threads with no posts for a year are deleted.

Hmm, that's good to know... Guess I ought to start saving stuff to my harddrive then (as if it weren't bloated enough already).

Shin-seiki: I'm personally far, FAR behind on my anime, though "Last Exile" is, incidentally, one of the ones on my list. What I've seen so far looks pretty cool -- feels almost like a combination of "Laputa" and "Escaflowne" to me. Plus the soundtrack is pretty cool. :D

[tv33]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
(My ISP, RoadRunner, has an extremely fast news server; I can download a typical 230MB anime episode, coming in at around 200KB/sec, in about 10 minutes.)


You know I have Road Runner and I have not noticed any improvement. In fact as of late I seem to be having problems downloading files.

I still don't have the Renewal version of EoE, the download refuses to go about 4k/sec for some reason.

[SeannyB]

My ISP, Comcast formerly known as AT&T formerly known as AOL-Time Warner Roadrunner formerly known as Mediaone, has always had a fast news server (200kilobytes/sec at best, depends on the day)

but generally I find it more convenient to get new releases through bittorrent... none of that extracting RARs and checking PARs and decaying posts all that fun usenet stuff.

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by SeannyB
My ISP, Comcast formerly known as AT&T formerly known as AOL-Time Warner Roadrunner formerly known as Mediaone, has always had a fast news server (200kilobytes/sec at best, depends on the day)

but generally I find it more convenient to get new releases through bittorrent... none of that extracting RARs and checking PARs and decaying posts all that fun usenet stuff. Really?! I consider Usenet the way to go; BitTorrent , for me, is a back-up, to get stuff that I missed when it was posted on Usenet. It's slow (that Revival Extras took 5 days to download :complain: )

[SeannyB]

yeah, sometimes Bittorrent sucks unbelievably, but usually I get 70-150kb/sec from places with good seeds. I like the convenience of download it & watch it. Rather than check PARs, repair archive, extract RARs, delete RARs and PARs, finally watch it

but usenet is great for all that other stuff that aren't typical anime episodes

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by SeannyB
yeah, sometimes Bittorrent sucks unbelievably, but usually I get 70-150kb/sec from places with good seeds. I like the convenience of download it & watch it. Rather than check PARs, repair archive, extract RARs, delete RARs and PARs, finally watch it

but usenet is great for all that other stuff that aren't typical anime episodes I dunno how it works on Windoze, but with Mac OS X, there's an app called MacPAR Deluxe, which checks and repairs the RARs, then automatically extracts the contents of the RAR, all with just a click on the PAR file. I just delete the RARs and PARs, and watch the show. Given that, and the advantage of download speed, I would say I get about 90% of the stuff I download off of Usenet...

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
BitTorrent , for me, is a back-up, to get stuff that I missed when it was posted on Usenet. It's slow (that Revival Extras took 5 days to download :complain: )

You think YOU have it bad? Because our cable company is twitchy about uploading, and I currently have to share a cable connection with rest of the household, I can't leave BitTorrent open whenever someone else in the house is using the Internet. And with an MMORPG-addicted brother, that amounts to several hours per day, at the MOST. I was getting those Revival Extras at speeds that made me recall the worst of my dialup days, so I've been trying to get them off DC++ instead (with MUCH faster speeds, whenever I actually GET a connection to the couple of people that have it).

Getting the Renewal movies are going to be another nightmare entirely.

Oh, woe! :bawling:

[Gundampilotspaz]

Though this thread is a classic its gone WAY off topic.

[Ryokai]

All I have to say is WOW.

[NakedEYE666]

Originally posted by Gundampilotspaz
Though this thread is a classic its gone WAY off topic.

When I started posting again here a few months (or however long) ago and saw this huge threads with Reichu & tv33 bickering at each other and posting images, while speaking 300* off of whatever the original topic was, I thought that was what it was all about.

Ahh good times...

[tv33]

I found this interesting. The Eva Otaku's take on it, he just added it to his FAQ's. Though I am not sure if I agree.

It can be found Here (http://www.evaotaku.com/html/evafaq2.html#question39)


Q) Before Gendo shoots Ritsuko, in The End of Evangelion, he says something to her that the audience cannot hear. What did he say?

A) Speculation abounds over what Gendo's last words to Ritsuko were - and there's simply no answer. In the original story boards, Gendo's line is supposed to be covered by the sound of an explosion (from the battle raging in NERV). While the explosion sound was eventually scrapped, Anno ensured that Gendo's line indeed drops out so that we cannot hear it.

Yuriko Yamaguchi, Ritsuko's Japanese voice actress, too wondered what Gendo had told Ritsuko. But for her, it was a more personal question - because what Gendo told Risuko would directly dictate how the response, "Liar." was delivered. In the Red Cross Book (seiyuu section), Yamaguchi writes:

Ritsuko fades away with her final word, "Liar."
But what was this "Liar" in reference to? The script for this last scene only has Gendo saying:
"Ritsuko Akagi, I truly...." followed by Ritsuko saying: "Liar (gets shot)". I can imagine many
words that might follow "I truly....", but I can't decide on any in particular. That is the complexity
of Gendou and Ritsuko's relationship.

From Ritsuko Akagi's inner feelings as a scientist, she could be considered a woman who blindly
gave her love to Gendou Ikari, and also a foolish woman that walked the same path as her mother
Naoko who committed suicide after being betrayed by Ikari. I personally wanted her to end as a
convenient, submissive woman who simply wanted to die righteously. But in the previous movie
(D&R) she ended as a deeply jealous woman filled with nothing but hatred toward Ikari.

Feeling unsatisfied with this, I looked for a way to accept her death at the hands of Ikari.
This made the interpretation of "Liar" very important. But the voice-over grew nearer and nearer....

Director Anno must have noticed how I felt. When it came time to do the voice-over, he showed me
a single, hidden hint at the last moment. With that one incredible hint, I, and Ritsuko Akagi, were
utterly defeated. It hardly needs saying, but Director Anno is incredible. Truly awesome -- a genius.

So Gendo does indeed have a line there. Gendo did tell Ritsuko something, it's not simply a matter of Anno trying to be clever or leave the audience wondering. What could Gendo have said? Many of theorized it was simply, "I love/loved you." - but that seems too clean and simple, too trite, for Anno to make such a big deal about protecting the secret. Love is the obvious answer - and Gendo was never obvious.

Personally, I'm content in believing Gendo said, "Ritsuko Akagi, I truly... needed you."

[EvaOtaku]

I want to add one thing -

In the "editorial" I posted on the main page when I added that to the FAQ I wandered off on a tangent urging people to see Lost In Translation. The relevance being that the final line exchanged between the characrers in Lost In Translation is also inaudible and has become the basis, as in Evangelion's case, for much debate about what exactly that myserious line was.

I made that plug partly for the "gee-whiz" novelty of the similarity and parlty because - well - it's just a great film. However, there was also an ulterior motive.

In respect to this line, when pressed for an answer, Bill Murray merely stated "It's between lovers." It has become generally accepted, by fans of that film, that the line was left out because it was not "for" us - the audience. It was "for" them - the characters. It's none of our business what Bill Harris says to Charlotte.

It's none of our business what Gendou said to Ritsuko.

"It's between lovers."

-brendan
Stray Radio - when otaku who their way (http://www.studiokanzen.com/radio/)

[RahOtaku]

"Ritsuko Akagi, I truly... needed you." -EvaOtaku-

I also believe that Anno Intended for that scene to be there and for us not to be able to guess what he says. I personally would bet half of my Eva Collection that no one would ever guess what he says. And I would bet the other half of my Eva collection that you can't get Anno to say that you've guessed it correctly.

But One thing I don't agree with is...that I don't believe Gendou is saying...
" I really need you."

Gendou has about as much need for Ritsuko at the moment as he would need a bomb going off in Central Dogma.

http://evangeliondef.org/Imagenes/cartas/drama/images/d114e.jpg

She's completely humiliated. The only way she can be with Gendou is in death.

http://evangeliondef.org/Imagenes/cartas/drama/images/d118e.jpg

She's made up her mind that she will be united in death with Gendou without Yui.


http://evangeliondef.org/Imagenes/cartas/drama/images/d115e.jpg

She's pretty happy with herself. She's finally defeated Rei and Yui....

http://evangeliondef.org/Imagenes/cartas/drama/images/d117e.jpg

She's been stopped by her jealous mother... "I'm sorry dear... but if I can't have him... You can't either..."
Too bad for Ritsuko, Her mother has the same personality as she does
^_^

http://evangeliondef.org/Imagenes/cartas/drama/images/d124e.jpg

Gendou doesn't look especially Romantic in this seen. I would speculate that Gendou said something really harsh to Ritsuko, more like "Ritsuko Akagi, Really I never needed you". OR something Patronizing. "Ritsuko Akagi, Really I am sorry"


^_^

[EvaOtaku]

Originally posted by RahOtaku

But One thing I don't agree with is...that I don't believe Gendou is saying...
" I really need you."


Well - for one thing, that's not what I offered up. I said, "Ritsuko Akagi, I truly... needed you."

Emphasis on "needed".

Because the fact is, Gendo *did* need Ritsuko at many stages in Evangelion. Whether Gendo thought of her as any more than a tool is moot.

Hell, hours earlier Ritsuko had been asked to install the 666 protection to stop SEELE from hacking the MAGI. She must have been the only person to do this since she herself says -

Ritsuko:
Even an abandoned woman has her uses... How egotistical.

Ritsuko's VA said the line was something that completely "defeated" her and Ritsuko. And I think that that line is something that could do that. It's Gendo looking at Ritsuko and saying - "You know what? I didn't love you, I didn't care about you at all but, at one time, I did need you.... But not any more."

It's not supposed to be romantic. It's supposed to destroy her.

As for her reply - Liar? - well, maybe she didn't believe him. Or didn't want to believe him.

[RahOtaku]

Ahh then we suffer the same plague of not being able to communicate what we really mean. ^_^

It's so unfortunate. But I'm glad that we agree on this issue.

I want to ask you on whether you still believe that EOE and 25/26 of the TV series are different?

I have to disagree on your view that they are different.

^_^

p.s. I have 10 posts. Finally I can install my avatar.

[EvaOtaku]

Originally posted by RahOtaku
I want to ask you on whether you still believe that EOE and 25/26 of the TV series are different?

I still maintain they're different, though largely because of discussion with MDWigs - I'll entertain the possibility that they're the same.

But the Newtype Filmbook comment along with Tsurumaki's comment that the TV ending was largely to convey their dissatisfaction with the ending and show their internal collapse and innability to produce a satisfactory finale, keep me convinced that the TV ending is different than the film ending.



Wait a second..

Eep. Am I back to debating Evangelion? Noooooooo!!! God, noooooo! ^_^;

[RahOtaku]

Umm... Yes, MDWigs is quite convincing....

But when you say they made a movie for dissatisfaction, it could be because the ending had no action and was a bunch of self contemplation, or even as small a thing as not seeing Asuka actually Whooping some real Angel butt.

Never do they say that the movie was made to change the ending. But simply as you've quoted a "dissatisfaction with the ending and show their internal collapse and innability to produce a satisfactory finale"

So simply the ending is too short and they ran out of time. To do EOE Evangelion would have needed atleast 30 episodes, which was impractical. That's how I read that.

^_^

P.s. I'm interested in creating a "Blue bird book" for RahXephon, I hope you may be interested in helping me make comparisons between Eva and Rah. I've collected much data and you won't need to do much work, but simply tell me what I've missed. My Website will be up as soon as I stop chatting and work on my site. www.RahOtaku.com

If you haven't noticed. My name is in homage to your site.

Oh, atleast tell me have you seen Rahxephon

[MDWigs]

Originally posted by EvaOtaku
Wait a second..

Eep. Am I back to debating Evangelion? Noooooooo!!! God, noooooo! ^_^;

Hehe you can't help yourself. ^^

[Sharp-kun]

Originally posted by EvaOtaku

Eep. Am I back to debating Evangelion? Noooooooo!!! God, noooooo! ^_^;
Excellent.... :)

I need to spend more time in this forum. -o-;

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Shin-Seiki, I must admit, your grasp of Anno's "visual syntax" is mind-blowing. However, when it comes to logic, the force is not quite as strong with you. Ritsuko says she really doesn't care about being naked in front of the Creepy Old Men from Germany. In Episode 23, she says she'd endure any humiliation for Gendo. The fact that Gendo ordered her to strip in front of a bunch of monoliths wouldn't annoy her too much - she must be pissed off about something else. Notice that after her striptease for Der Fuhrer, she "gets back" at Gendo and company by destroying the dummy plug cores, AKA Rei's clone army. This makes sense, since her eyebrow started twitching at about the time she learned that she was being sent to them instead of Rei.

When Gendo asks her why she destroyed the dummy plug cores, it demonstrates that he is totally unaware of Ritsuko's hatred/envy of Rei. I think that what Gendo told her had something to do with her feelings about Rei - Maybe he said "you're nobody's substitute" or, if you want to be really daring, "Rei forgives you" (for destroying her "sisters")

It must have SOMETHING to do with Rei - I just have no idea what.

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Chickens
Shin-Seiki, I must admit, your grasp of Anno's "visual syntax" is mind-blowing. However, when it comes to logic, the force is not quite as strong with you. Ritsuko says she really doesn't care about being naked in front of the Creepy Old Men from Germany. In Episode 23, she says she'd endure any humiliation for Gendo. The fact that Gendo ordered her to strip in front of a bunch of monoliths wouldn't annoy her too much - she must be pissed off about something else. Notice that after her striptease for Der Fuhrer, she "gets back" at Gendo and company by destroying the dummy plug cores, AKA Rei's clone army. This makes sense, since her eyebrow started twitching at about the time she learned that she was being sent to them instead of Rei.

When Gendo asks her why she destroyed the dummy plug cores, it demonstrates that he is totally unaware of Ritsuko's hatred/envy of Rei. I think that what Gendo told her had something to do with her feelings about Rei - Maybe he said "you're nobody's substitute" or, if you want to be really daring, "Rei forgives you" (for destroying her "sisters")

It must have SOMETHING to do with Rei - I just have no idea what. Well, you're probably the only person that can watch Ep23, and come to the amazing conclusion that Ritsuko didn't mind being stipped and humiliated.
The rest of us can pick up on the rather obvious indications that she is seething with anger over the treatment she was just made to endure; which, as I pointed out, SEELE had cleverly manipulated her into blaming on Gendou...

Here is the new ADV translation (on the Resurrection DVD) of the scene where she destroys the clones:
-----
Misato: Do you know just what you're doing?!

Ritsuko: Yes, I know. I'm destroying them.

They're not people. They're things shaped like people.

But I lost, even to these things! I couldn't win!

I only needed to think of him and I could endure any kind of humiliation!

I didn't care what happened to my body!

But he... He...

And I knew too.

I'm a fool!

Like mother, like daughter, we're both big fools!
-----
She was willing to "endure any kind of humiliation" for him, right up to the moment that SEELE pulled the rug out from underneath her, by letting her think that it was Gendou himself that set her up for all this...

[Gaizokubanou]

I think Fuzzy Chickens' idea makes sense.

"I only needed to think of him and I could endure any kind of humiliation!"/"I didn't care what happened to my body!" - being naked didn't lead into the incident

"But I lost, even to these things! I couldn't win!" - but loosing to Rei certainly had the effect.

"But he... He...

And I knew too." - the info seele leaked to her about she being the replacement is the real shock.

"Like mother, like daughter, we're both big fools!" - didn't her mother died because of Rei 1 telling her she was just a replacement of Yui? And Rei = Yui's clone < Yui, and she didn't even come close to just a clone(at least that's how Ritsuko felt probably)

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
Well, you're probably the only person that can watch Ep23, and come to the amazing conclusion that Ritsuko didn't mind being stipped and humiliated.

So I guess her comment "I feel no disgrace" is total BS?

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
The rest of us can pick up on the rather obvious indications that she is seething with anger over the treatment she was just made to endure; which, as I pointed out, SEELE had cleverly manipulated her into blaming on Gendou...

Or she's seething over the fact, not that she was sent naked, but that she was sent instead of Rei.

[Shin-seiki]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Chickens
So I guess her comment "I feel no disgrace" is total BS?No, but I think one needs to assess the meaning of that line in the context in which it occurs:

SEELE: We would like for things to procede smoothly. We do not wish to subject you to any more degradation and suffering.

Ritsuko: I don't feel humiliated whatsoever.

They're playing good-cop/bad-cop with her, and she's pretending that she isn't degraded or humiliated.
That line indicates defiance on her part, which crumbles and collapses the moment they lay that bit about "It was none other than Ikari-kun" etc. on her.

That is the significance of what she means by "I only needed to think of him and I could endure any kind of humiliation!"

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
she's pretending that she isn't degraded or humiliated.

Which would make that line BS. Pretending = BS.

[RahOtaku]

That's correct it's completely a lie.

I hope that clears it up for you.

And I don't think Gendou is saying something nice at the moment.



^_^

[Fuzzy Chickens]

He's about to shoot her. He may be ruthless, but he's not a sadist. He'd want her to die in the best mood possible.

Although personally, I've always been a fan of "Your mom was better than you"

[RahOtaku]

He's about to shoot her. He may be ruthless, but he's not a sadist. He'd want her to die in the best mood possible-fuzzy-

That's funny, I've never found Gendou especially caring about how other people felt.

^_^

[NakedEYE666]

Originally posted by RahOtaku
That's funny, I've never found Gendou especially caring about how other people felt.

^_^

Point taken. If he had any care for how people felt he would have atleast gave a damn about Shinji.

Then again, it's important to note that Gendou may have thought he was doing the right thing with Shinji, as he was known to do with some of his controversial decisions. But then again, there's the likelyhood that he did what he did to Shinji so that he could please himself, which is a very human thing to do.

[Fuzzy Chickens]

It's also possible that he made Shinji feel like crap because he was trying to get the little wussy to save the world and whatnot, and Shinji kept not wanting to... it's easy to get fed up with people like that kinda fast.

[RahOtaku]

That's funny, It never occured to me that Gendou would make his son feel like crap "in order to save the world..."

Perhaps I'm not acquainted with your type of logic?

^_^

[Reichu]

Originally posted by RahOtaku
Perhaps I'm not acquainted with your type of logic?

When it comes to FC, none of us are.

[Fuzzy Chickens]

Originally posted by RahOtaku
[color=blue]That's funny, It never occured to me that Gendou would make his son feel like crap "in order to save the world..."

Well, when you put it THAT way... :rolleyes:

You make it sound like it's a prerequisite for getting Shinji to save the world, when I meant that it was a consequence of trying to get him to do it.

[Reichu]

Not quite this thread's one-year birthday, but I couldn't help myself... Will the world ever know the secrets Shin-seiki has locked within his skull?

[Chronox]

I doubt it. I don't know if Anno has all the answers and he made the series.

[thewayneiac]

Not quite this thread's one-year birthday, but I couldn't help myself... Will the world ever know the secrets Shin-seiki has locked within his skull?


Yeah, it's like that Talking Heads song, Crosseyed and Painless:

I'm still waiting; I'm still waiting; I'm still waiting.
I'm still waiting; I'm still waiting; I'm still waiting.
I'm still waiting; I'm still waiting....................

[Keisuke-kun]

What I have drawn from this is Gendo must of said something like "In reality your not Rei's replacement." That is what I think Shin-seiki wanted us to think. Now we know Gendo has compassion from the scean before his death in Ep.26'. So he could be sparing her feelings. But why Rei, what does Rei really matter in the relationship between Ritsuko and Gendo? How could Ritsokui replace Rei? She can't. Looking into facts from Evangelion that are common knowlege I have come to the ultimate decision that Gendo's lasts words to Ritsuko are

"In reality, you were not just Yui's replacement."

Then Ritsuko's last words:

"Lair"

Well Rituko doesn't care about Yui. They bareley knew eachother. If this was Naoko we were talking about it would be different. There is the rival thing. Naoko:Yui and Rituko:Rei. Like mother like daughter. Both are after the same thing and both have the "same" obstacle.

[Reichu]

Yeah, it's like that Talking Heads song, Crosseyed and Painless

:lol:

Well, Wayne, you know the Great Procrastinator personally... How about forcing him to churn out that darned follow-up at gunpoint? Threaten to have his entire anime collection trampled on a dance room floor? Chinese water torture, maybe?

[BLACKANGEL32076]

Ok, here's my two cents on this one:

First, Shin-Seki makes a very compelling arguement, especially when one compares Auska's reaction to Kaji's death to Ritsuko's. It very possible that he really DIDN'T know that Ritsuko was forced to strip in fornt of the old men and THEN be told, you were sent here instead of Rei. As a result he didn't know why she was so hacked off and destroyed the dummy plug system.

At the same same time, Fuzzy Chickens makes an interesting point too. She really didn't care about being stripped, but did about being sent instead of Rei. Why, look at how mad she was before she was told, and after she was told that she was Rei's replacement. She never gets over this and is just as mad after she destroys the dummy plug. THAT is why she took Shinji too see the Rei clones, (with Misato coming along as a tagalong). This was her way of saying '**** YOU GENDO! i AM NOT A PIECE OF MEAT. I AM WORTH MORE THAN THESE THINGS!!!' and she wanted his son, for whatever it was worth to see her give his father the finger in her own little way. Later she says, "Even an abandoned woman has value" confirming that fact that she needed to feel more valuble to Gendo than Rei.

Finally,the question, "what does Gendo say to Ritsuko?"

I am in the "I truly cared for you" camp on this one. Why? Simply put, Gendo wanted to stun Ritsuko. Why? Becaus the woman is holding a loaded revolver and the last thing he wanted is for her to get a wild shot off and hit Rei, who was still exposed enough to get hit.

I know, I know, it sounds far fetched. However, having come as far as he has in making his goals a reality, do you really think Gendo Ikari of all people would anything to chance???

...and if you remember the look on Ritsuko's face, it works! But only for a second. Ritsuko, looking down the barrel of a semi-auto handgun, thinks it's bs and calls him a liar. Gendo, instinctively snaps a shot off at this and Ritsuko gets capped.

Sounds simple right. But it's plausable if for no other reason than this:

According to Ritsuko's Japanese VA, she says that what Gendo said had left her feeling utterly defeated. What if in that brief moment, Ritsuko believed Gendo really didn't know what had been said and done do her and all of her actions against him were for nothing...until she remembered that Gendo was holding a loaded gun at her and was trying to protect his precious Rei?

...thus, "I truly cared/I really did care for you" is just as plausible as anything else.

...at least IMO.

[J Solt]

I guess I’m what you’d call a newbie. Evangelion is the first anime series I’ve watched all the way through. I found out about it after reading a summary of it on wikipedia.com. Having been a religious studies major, I was so intrigued by all the Jewish and Christian imagery and philosophy that I had to see it, and I ended up loving the series! Now I own the Perfect Collection and End of Evangelion…

… which leads me to this thread. First off, I have to compliment Shin-seiki on his very detailed and in-depth analysis of the background directly behind that final scene. You have a really good eye to catch those scenes that make you ask “Where have I seen this before?” What’s more, you were able, in my opinion, to prove with your slide-show the fact that those scenes deliberately foreshadowed things to come. And you found evidence to support your theory in scenes where I wouldn’t have even thought to look (e.g. Asuka’s reaction to the news that Kaji is dead). Reading your posts and viewing your evidence made me go “Aha”, as I saw the same details (e.g. Rei’s face before destroying Gendo’s glasses, and as Gendo summons her in EoE). Great work!

So what were Gendo’s last words to Ritsuko? Ah, the eternal question…

“… I needed you.”

I have to say many of the theories offered here had me going, “Yeah, that had to be it!” The romantic in me wanted Gendo to confess at least his affection for Ritsuko by saying “The truth is… I needed you.” Certainly it would stun Ritsuko to hear that. And it wouldn’t be out of character for the seemingly emotion-less Gendo to admit his feelings during such an emotionally-charged scene. For example, we’ve seen Gendo treat Shinji like crap… only to put all that aside and give Shinji a well-deserved compliment after doing a good job. Gendo’s Complementation sequence reveals not only his reasons why he’s treated Shinji the way that he has, but also the implication that deep down he’s always been conscious of the fact that he was a horrible father… and yet, he was powerless to change that. This implies that those few nice things Gendo said to Shinji were in fact genuine – and note that those nice words occur usually after heightened scenes of battling the Angels. We could be experiencing something similar here between Gendo and Ritsuko.

And Ritsuko’s last line would fit well here because I’m sure she knows that Gendo wants to initiate Instrumentality to reunite with his wife Yui. In her mind, he didn’t need her emotionally; he just needed her help to achieve that goal. That’s why she calls him a “liar”, as if to say, “You never needed me like that!”

“… I’m the one who’s sorry.”

If Gendo wasn’t admitting love, or at least affection, towards Ritsuko, then the next logical thing for the romantic in me to believe he said to her would be an apology. Seeing Ritsuko aiming a gun at him bent on destroying him, he knew that both of them would not get out of this one alive together. Nothing would be the same after this. Recall that the scene starts out with Ritsuko saying “I’m sorry, but I changed the MAGI’s program without telling you.” Maybe she inspired pity and regret in Gendo enough to echo her apology: “The truth is… I’m the one who’s sorry.”

Just what would he be sorry about? He could be sorry for the way he treated her and used her, or for the fact it’s come to this, or maybe even for what he’s about to do.

And why wouldn’t she believe him? Because maybe she believes that for Gendo, the ends justify the means. Gendo wanted to reunite with his wife, and if that meant using her, using Rei, or even his own son to reach that goal, then so be it. In Ritsuko’s reasoning, how dare he say he’s sorry when he’s about to get what he wants, and she’s about to be left with nothing? Her “liar” could mean: “You know you’re not sorry for anything. In fact, you can’t wait to see Yui again, and to hell with me!”

“… you were never a substitute to me.”

Now, this sounds a little bit more like Gendo talking. Like the writer of the EvaOtaku FAQ says, “Love is the obvious answer - and Gendo was never obvious”. Gendo just wouldn’t be able to express “love” by actually saying it like that – at least not to anybody else but Yui. He’s built a kind of stone wall around himself which enables him to ignore his emotions (which of the TV episodes said that Gendo was never the same person after the death of his wife?). So maybe this is the way he could make his feelings come out.

Ritsuko would be taken aback by this because it would recall her own insecurities about being “Rei’s replacement/substitute”, and in the end she wouldn’t believe Gendo for the same reasons I stated above. Gendo just wants to get back with his wife, and everything he’s done is for that. In her mind, how could she not have been anything but a kind of temporary substitute Yui? Thus, “liar”.

[J Solt]

Reluctant Conclusion

But as much as I want to believe this romantic declaration, or even an apology, one thing keeps holding me back from that, and that is the words of Ritsuko’s seiyuu:

“When it came time to do the voice-over, he showed me a single, hidden hint at the last moment. With that one incredible hint, I, and Ritsuko Akagi, were utterly defeated.” (emphasis mine)

The word ‘defeated’ is too strong to be ignored, and that reluctantly convinces me that Gendo was cruel and heartless to her even in the bitter end. And the clue, the “single, hidden hint” that dictates Ritsuko’s final word, and thereby also implies Gendo’s final words to her, has been here all along. So let’s go through the scene and find this “hint”, and thereby get close to Gendo’s words.

Ritsuko has just confessed to Gendo that she’s secretly “changed the MAGI’s program”, calling her deed “a loving daughter’s final request”. With that, she invokes the spirit of her deceased mother inside the MAGI program, and with a look of peaceful determination, asks that they both “end it together.” When the portable terminal inside her pocket doesn’t set off the self-destruct sequence as planned, Ritsuko learns that the Casper program, her mother as a woman, has in actuality denied her access to the sequence. Ritsuko realizes the betrayal and calls out in painful horror: “Mother, how could you [choose] your lover instead of me?”

Ritsuko’s repeated summoning of her mother, which is of course appropriate in this scene, leads me to believe that the “single, hidden hint” may be Ritsuko’s mother herself… and if this is true, then what Gendo said had to be related to Dr. Naoko Akagi herself. So this is what I think may have happened:

RITSUKO (in sad despair)
Mother, how could you [choose] your lover instead of me?

GENDO (draws his gun)
Ritsuko Akagi, the truth is… *you’re just like your mother.*

RITSUKO (surprised, but then re-composes herself, tears welling up in her eyes)
Liar…

I believe this may be the answer we’ve been looking for. Certainly, these words would’ve struck Ritsuko like a knife into her heart. It would’ve made confront the very painful truth about Gendo’s real motives with her. It would’ve made her recall the complex relationship she had with her mother, for, although Ritsuko seems to have a great respect for her mother’s scientific achievements, she herself admitted that she did not love her. Now why did she not love her mother?

Before I answer that question, let’s get to the probable way that Ritsuko learned about Gendo’s true intentions with her. In episode 23, SEELE says that they’re going to attack Gendo with someone who knows the truth. The very next scene shows Ritsuko sitting in front of her computer. Now, picking up from an earlier post by Shin-seiki, I believe that the truth that SEELE told Ritsuko during the meeting was Gendo’s true intentions with her. This is supported by the fact that when Gendo is questioning Ritsuko in the holding cell (in episode 24, after the destruction of the dummy plug system), Ritsuko yells at him in bitter and sad anger: “You had no hopes or expectations of me to start with! I was nothing!” True, this is a realization that she could’ve come to on her own, but, given SEELE’s words, and Ritsuko’s subsequent meeting with SEELE, I think it’s safe to assume that they told her. It may have been something she knew deep down all along, but refused to confront – but hearing it from a third party forced that confrontation with herself.

This leads us to the question as to why Ritsuko did not love her mother. Remember when Ritsuko is sitting in front of her computer after the scene where SEELE wants to send Gendo someone who knows the truth? Well, what is she looking at? She’s looking at a picture of Gendo, her mother, and her younger self! But – and here’s something that shocked me – while Gendo and Naoko are standing close together, Ritsuko is standing apart from them… almost as if she doesn’t want to be near them. And I submit this is because she had realized that Gendo was playing Naoko for a fool. She didn’t love her mother because how could she love someone who was so learned and had accomplished so much as a scientific woman, and yet fail to realize that she was being duped?

And now, the line “… you’re just like your mother” would’ve made Ritsuko heartbreakingly realize that she had fallen into exactly the same trap that her mother did. Truly “like mother, like daughter”, as she says tearfully after destroying the Rei dummy plug system.

Ah, but there’s more that would’ve opened up Ritsuko’s eyes as well as the wound in her heart even more… to let her see exactly how much like her mother Gendo had turned her into. You see, Naoko killed Rei in a fit of rage when she learned from Rei about Gendo’s real intentions with her. And likewise Ritsuko destroyed the entire dummy plug system (i.e., killed all the Rei’s) after learning, presumably from SEELE, about the truth, i.e. of Gendo’s true motives with her.

Furthermore, both turned to suicide: Naoko because she killed Rei and probably couldn’t take it that Gendo was just making fun of her; and Ritsuko because that way she could take Gendo with her – but therein lies the difference, and also the reason why Ritsuko called Gendo a “liar”. The tone of Ritsuko’s seiyuu is, like she said, one of defeat. My interpretation is that Ritsuko does mean ‘liar’ in the sense of “No, I’m not like my mother. She would have done anything for you, but not me, not anymore, because I had the courage to do what she couldn’t, and that was to confront you, to put an end to you.” Nonetheless she realizes in that instant how far along her mother’s footsteps she had already walked, and that her courage was going to get her nowhere. Dr. Naoko Akagi killed Rei I to silence Gendo’s malicious words “old hag”… but that sweet victory was fleeting; it led to her end. She won the battle but lost the war. And the same for Ritsuko. She finally had the courage to stand up to Gendo, but where would that lead her? She was going to meet the same fate as her mother.

And that’s where I think Ritsuko’s tone of defeat comes in. It’s almost as though she understands that the difference between herself and her mother is very very unclear, and the realization has made her too weak to argue for her own defense. She acted differently, yes, but it also has led her to death. So in effect, she’s surrendering to Gendo, saying, “You’re right. And after all this… you still win.”

Final Comments

Ritsuko was generally an emotion-less character throughout the beginning of the series, “hyperlogical” as she’s called. But the series gradually gives her more dimension and character. We see that when she calls the relationships between men and women “illogical”, she’s not saying this insensitively. She’s saying it because she knows it firsthand. By the time we get to the end, we see that she is very much a person who feels and wants to be loved just like anybody else. She seems like a thoughtful, caring woman, someone you’d actually want to get to know if you ever met her. Because of this, I have to say she’s become my favorite character in the series. I feel so much for her, and I can’t help having my eyes well up with tears during her final scene… just like hers do.

In the end, we will never know what Gendo’s last words to Ritsuko were. And this is the beauty of what Hideaki Anno has done, for, by cutting out the words, he leaves it up to us to fill in the gap. Look at us: almost eight years after the movie was first released, and we’re still talking about it. And because we can’t reach an objective answer, we’re forced to come up with our own. Thus, we can have a kind and romantic Gendo who at the last minute admits to Ritsuko his feelings for her, or we can have a cruel Gendo until the very end, one that mercilessly wants to drive that final knife through Ritsuko’s aching heart. Similarly, we can have a strong and determined Ritsuko, whose final words testify to her courage, or we can have a tragic and pain-stricken Ritsuko who surrenders to the death that she wanted back in episode 23. I think these types of ambiguities are what make the Evangelion series strong, and what will keep us talking about it for more time to come.

Joseph

P.S. To Shin-seiki or any other fan that knows the series better than me: Shin-seiki posted some comparison shots between the original TV series, and the digitally remade(?) series, which changes the facial expressions of some characters, making them look different. What is this digitally remade series called? Is it the Platinum Edition? All I have is the Perfect Collection, which I assume, is simply the original TV series. I’d appreciate anyone who could help me out! :-)

[Soluzar]

P.S. To Shin-seiki or any other fan that knows the series better than me: Shin-seiki posted some comparison shots between the original TV series, and the digitally remade(?) series, which changes the facial expressions of some characters, making them look different. What is this digitally remade series called? Is it the Platinum Edition? All I have is the Perfect Collection, which I assume, is simply the original TV series. I’d appreciate anyone who could help me out! :-)

It goes in 2 phases. After the "Perfect Collection" came the "New Production Cut" - like a director's cut edition. This added new (and important) material to the series, although only to the last half-dozen episodes.

Then came the "Renewal of Evangelion", which is marketed outside of Japan as the Platinum Collection. This version features enhanced picture quality and sound.

In addition to TV episodes #01-26 , there are also two movies, Death and Rebirth, and The End of Evangelion. Death is sort of a recap of the series, but edited in such a way as to make it worth a viewing even so. It does include a small portion of new animation and new audio. You can safely skip the 'Rebirth' part of D&R, because it is merely an early cut of the first half of The End of Evangelion.

Please note that despite what you may have read on other sites, the two versions of the ending are not necessarily to be considered divergent . The popular theory among many members of this site is that the TV ending and the movie ending merely present the same events from two separate points of view, thus allowing the viewer to see more of what takes place than would otherwise be possible. For more information on this theory, and some observations which may help you to reach your own conclusion, please visit the site put up by MDWigs. (http://www.mdwigs.tk)

Do check out the movies, EoE at least, if not D&R. It makes the whole series that much more complete and comprehensible if you do. That's my opinion, anyway. As the quote referred to by Wigs on his site states, there are no absolute answers where this anime is concerned. There are, however facts and information presented on screen that make some conclusions much more likely to be correct than others.

Enjoy. ^_^

[Reichu]

From the Platinum 0:5 booklet:

Video Version and On-Air Version

Roughly divided, there exist three versions of the Neon Genesis Evangelion TV series. They are the "TV initial broadcast version," "LD & VHS version," and this "renewal DVD version."

The "TV initial broadcast version" is literally what was aired on television. To this, in being released, the production staff put more work into the video and audio in order to make it closer to what they had imagined, and this is the "LD & VHS version." Some examples of the changes that are often talked about among the fans are that each of the episode titles had ruby text in the "TV initial broadcast version," which are no longer there in the "LD & VHS version," and that the brand name of the beer Misato drinks in Episode Two has been changed from Yebichu Beer in the "TV initial broadcast version" to Yebisu Beer in the "LD & VHS version." With regards to Episode Twenty-One to Episode Twenty-Four for the "LD & VHS version," new scenes were added, and substantial revisions were made to the animation and such. Several of the additional scenes had been released previously in the theatrical "Evangelion: Death". The older DVD series is also fundamentally the "LD & VHS version."

For the "renewal DVD version," renewal work was done on Episode One to Episode Twenty, Episode Twenty-Five, and the Final Episode using the "LD & VHS version" as the source. For Episode Twenty-One to Episode Twenty-Four, there are both the "Video Version," which is the result of renewal work done on "LD & VHS version" with the new additional scenes, and the "On-Air Version," which was built to the length of the "TV initial broadcast version." Though the "On-Air Version" is matched to the length of the "TV initial broadcast version," it is a new version, which has had the same revisions and renewal work done on them with regards to the video and audio as the "LD & VHS version." Furthermore, for the "Video Version" for Episode Twenty-One to Episode Twenty-Four, the staff members who worked on the addition and revision of scenes in the "LD & VHS version" are listed separately in the ending credits as "Video Version Staff." In the "On-Air Version," the "TV initial broadcast version" staff and the staff members who added and revised scenes in the "LD & VHS version" are listed together.

[Reichu]

I'm actually beginning to wonder if I led people astray with the "New Production Cut" stuff... I'm starting to think that this term just refers to those specific cuts that were newly produced for DEATH and #21'~#24'. The term for the episodes themselves is, like the common wisdom says, "video version" or "LD & VHS version". (The disadvantage to this is that both "video version" and "LD & VHS version" also refer to the rest of series' "Genesis" release, none of which have been significantly overhauled to the point where they need to be easily distinguished in conversation from their broadcast versions... If any of that makes sense.)

Time to christen a new acronym?

[Shin-seiki]

Wow, J Solt, that's what I call a startling debut (oh, btw, welcome to the forum! :) ). It's amazing to see that someone has been thinking about this topic in such a serious and concentrated way. I have been meaning to update this topic, since parts of my analysis as put forth in the first couple pages of this thread have been superceded by new conclusions about what motivated Ritsuko to flip out and turn against Gendo as she did, which came to me as a result a careful reading of the new and improved subtitle script available on ADV's Resurrection and Genesis Reborn DVDs... I had been considering starting a new thread to elaborate on those conclusions, but now I would be reluctant to separate my follow-up from the excellent analysis you have posted here.

[Magami No ER]

Wow.....possiblity. But why would Ritsuko say liar so calmly?(or was that her being defeated?)

[J Solt]

Thank you for the welcome, the positive feedback, and the information too! I saw that this thread hadn't been active in like two months, but I just had all these ideas when I saw and examined that scene that I just had to go for it and add them to the other opinions expressed here. So thanks again! And I'm curious to read those new conclusions of yours, Shin-seiki! :)

Magami no ER wrote:
"... why would Ritsuko say liar so calmly?(or was that her being defeated?)"

That's how I interpreted the way she said the word. To me, that was her being defeated. To me, she said the word in much the same way as Asuka reacted to Shinji's news that Kaji was dead - a natural reaction to a truth she didn't want to hear. But deep down, all she could think of was: "After all I've done, he's right. I'm no different than my mother. And what's worse, I can't stop him. He wins."

Ritsuko is a very difficult character to interpret. I found this on another thread discussing "how crazy" she might be:

HeWhoPostsStuff wrote:

"...I've always seen her as someone who's had all of her expectations and conventions more or less shattered, one after the other...

"The mother who taught her most everything she knew and led her into Gehirn/Nerv was revealed to her to be a fornicator and murderer, and unable to deal with that fact to the point that she took her own life. Misato, one of her few friends, turns out a drunk and a hormonally-driven wreck, and Kaji is a womanizer and a liar. The woman whom Ritsuko blames for her mother's death (Yui) still haunts her each day, in the form of Rei. After convincing herself that she would never follow in her mother's footsteps, she finds herself as taken in by Gendo as the former was. In the end, even the cat she keeps for companionship dies, and her mother, in the form of the Casper magi component, abandons her yet again, and her lover kills her, only for Rei to be the last thing she sees before she dies. And on top of it all, Ritsuko holds a lot more of it inside of herself than most of the other characters do...methinks that sort of thing would wear away at her after awhile.

"In a sense, she's also trying to run away from her own situation...the blonde dye in her hair is a subtle testament to that. She wants to leave her mother and all the trouble that came with her behind, but she's never able to. In the end, methinks that Ritsuko does act pretty extreme in destroying the Rei clones and attempting to blow up Nerv HQ, but I think that there was a path leading up to that point, and that she wasn't that unstable to begin with."

For these reasons, I can definitely see Ritsuko insulting Gendo in a calm manner. After all her disappointments in her life, she still manages somehow to hold things in and not show her feelings. Even Misato realized how little she knows about Ritsuko. The only time we see her "go berserk" (so to speak) is when she destroys the dummy plug system, but after that, she re-composes herself. She's calmer when Gendo goes to question her. True, she has an outburst, but she could've done more. Misato in Ritsuko's place would've charged at Gendo and begun to strangle him. Ritsuko is calmer, more humble than that.

Notice how she speaks to Gendo in the final scene before her mother betrays her. She believes she’s about to get even with him, to give him exactly what he deserves, and how does she talk? Her tone is serious, straight-forward, and controlled. She doesn’t gloat, she doesn’t get emotional; she just very calmly says what she’s done, and what she’s about do, and lets Gendo figure out for himself the implications.

One thing that just occurred to me is that "Liar" need not mean that she believes what Gendo said was a lie. She might've called him a "liar" because that's exactly what he was to her all along, and what he will always be to her: a man who led her on, who made her think it was different with her, when in reality she was nothing to him - and only now, assuming his final words to her were "*you're just like your mother*, is when it really sinks in. You see, it's one thing for SEELE to tell her Gendo is playing her; it's also one thing for Ritsuko's own conscience to tell her the same thing too... but it's definitely quite another thing to hear it directly from Gendo's lips, the same lips that made her feel like he wanted her.

(And interestingly, when Naoko found out the truth from Rei I, what were the images that went through her mind? Given the other parallels between Naoko and Ritsuko that I mentioned above, maybe this is yet another one that Anno wanted us to pick up. I don't know... it's just a thought, but I think a very intriguing one.)

[Dragonaire]

I remember in the RCB the Japanese VA for Ristuko was talking about Gendo's remark and Anno's "amazing hint". I think J Solt has just found it. I think his hint was "Remember how Asuka reacted, or said 'Liar' for that matter to Shinji when he told her Kaji is dead." ^_^

[Magami No ER]

Shin-Seiki noticed that too, if you look at the pictures he posted, either in this or a different thread...I can't remember. (I'm not trying to knock down what he or you said at all, both presentations are incredible) ^_^

[Reichu]

So now we just have to figure out whether or not "you're just like your mother" in Japanese fits Gendo's mouth flaps. ;)

"Hontou ni... kimi wa hahaoya to onaji da." Uhhh... Would that be right?

[Magami No ER]

Well, what is the exact amount of time of the pan of him saying that line? (Any smart people wanna figure that out? -_-; )

[Magami No ER]

J Solt, did you delete your post?

[MagicianCamille]

Yeah I just saw "Last posted" in the series specific forum and it said J Solt..
:huh:

[J Solt]

Oh my God, call it crazy, but figuring out the words in Japanese and seeing if it fits is exactly what I was doing earlier! Great minds, I guess. :)

What I came up with was "Honto ni… okasan no you ni chodo desu."

Now, I know very little about Japanese, so I don't know if this too formal for Gendo to have used. I do note that, while my dictionary says that one should refer to one's own mother in Japanese as 'haha', Ritsuko uses 'kasan'. And 'okasan' is to talk about someone else's mother (since it's formal), so I figured maybe this is what Gendo used?

Now about the span of time...

I just calculated that Gendo's visible mouth flaps last for about 1.5 seconds. I say 'visible' because the scene quickly changes to Ritsuko's face, and that happens before he finishes speaking. About 4.5 seconds later, she says "Liar." To me, it definitely sounds possible for those words to fit into that span of time.

P.S. To Dragonaire - Yeah, I can see happening what you said. What I was suggesting, though, was that Ritsuko's mother herself was the clue - as if Anno told Ritsuko's seiyuu: "Look how your character's calling on her mother. That's precisely the weapon that Gendo will use to defeat you."

[J Solt]

Yeah, sorry, I deleted my post momentarily because I had made a little mistake. But it's all better now, hehe :)

[Reichu]

In NGE, anyway, when we hear characters saying that they are the 'same' as somebody else...

When Misato's in the bathtub and she wonders if she's the same Ritsuko, she says, "Ritsuko to onaji ka."

When Naoko tells Rei that she is replaceable too (her last words), she says, "Rei ... watashi to onaji ne."

When Kaworu tells Rei that they are the same, he says, "Kimi wa boku to onaji da ne."

I think "~ to onaji" would be the right construction here.

Gendo knows Ritsuko as an intimate, so if he did bother saying "you", it would probably be kimi.

He's also a very informal sort of guy. Offhand, the only time I can think of where he speaks formal Japanese is to Fuyutsuki, before he's been "won over" to Gehirn's cause. To Ritsuko -- definitely "da" and not "desu".

Now that I think about it, it would be odd for the G-man to refer to Naoko directly, as "your mother" or whatever. Perhaps he'd use one of those vague pronouns, and only Ritsuko would know what he was talking about. Or maybe...

http://evamonkey.com/reichu/stupid/baasan-to-onaji.jpg

[Reichu]

So you're saying perhaps he said "Baasan"?

Heh, you can read that? Ex-cellent.

I'm not seriously advocating that's what he said, but it's funny to think that he did. ;)

(Look at Rei....she's smiling...I never noticed that before! O_O)

:whistles innocently:

[Magami No ER]

Yup.
Ikagi Ritsuko-kun(Sounds rather mocking)
The truth is...
You're the same as(the)baasan.

[J Solt]

Wow! Now that sounds more like Gendo! It's so forceful, so potent, so cruel. Gives me chills imagining it:

"Ritsuko Akagi, the truth is... you're just like that old hag."
or "... like your old hag of a mother."

I like how you tied it in with what he would call Naoko behind her back. It would also add a whole new interpretation to Ritsuko's final reaction.

And, P.S., thanks for the quick Japanese lesson! :)

[Reichu]

Hmm... In that case, "ano baasan" would be better. Otherwise, it sounds like he's saying "you're just like (any) old hag", as opposed to "THAT old hag".

:goes to edit image:

And no problem... I share whatever I do know.

[J Solt]

Yeah, I agree: "that old hag" sounds much better, especially since that's who Ritsuko's just been talking about. It would at once let her know what he thought of Naoko... and what he's thought of her all along.

[Dragonaire]

"Ritsuko Agaki, I truly believe I hid your car keys in Rei."

"Liar."

....I thought the moment needed something.

[Headcrab]

"Ritsuko Agaki, I truly believe I hid your car keys in Rei."

"Liar."

....I thought the moment needed something.
ummmm...... yeah that'll work out fine....

[J Solt]

Please bear with me a little bit on this one because I'm still a little confused, hehe, and I know I should've responded earlier to the issue, but I was still caught up on the Gendo/Ritsuko discussion. :-)

I'm still a little unclear regarding the different versions of Evangelion. I guess my question boils down to this. Earlier, Shin-seiki did some comparison shots of Rei trying to break Gendo's glasses, and of Ritsuko after the meeting with SEELE, stating that they were between 23 and 23'. What and where is 23'? I know, for example like Soluzar said, that 25' and 26' refer to Episodes 25 and 26 as found in EoE... but what specifically does 23' refer to? I infer from the quality that it means it's an enhanced version of the original 23... so I guess that leads me to my next question. Were all the episodes redone in a similar fashion, or was it just 21-24, as I believed Reichu was saying earlier? I'm interested because I'd like to get my hands on these re-makes for comparison's sake too.

Thanks again, and I'm sorry for bringing up this issue again. :-/

[Soluzar]

Yeah, it's only #21 onward. They published a kind of 'special edition' of volumes 7 & 8 of the DVDs. That was the first time the footage was altered. This is the only time there was a major change to the content of the episodes.

There is also the version which is variously called Renewal/Platinum Edition, but that is purely a better transfer of the same footage for enhanced picture and sound quality, so you don't need that.

[J Solt]

Ahhhh, okay. Now I get it, that's what I wanted to know. Thanks! :-D
::adds to DVD shopping list::

[Reichu]

Well, there are few tweaks (and brand-new bloopers...) in Renewal that only the hardcore are gonna notice.

[Shinigami07]

I swear it, I swear he's apoligizing for Ritsuko's cat dying. I've sworn it all along!

[J Solt]

I swear it, I swear he's apoligizing for Ritsuko's cat dying. I've sworn it all along!

You know, I can kinda see that too, at least the romantic and optimist in me (or should that be "myself as a romantic, myself as an optimist..." etc. lol).

Movies and stories love to present something that seems trivial and insignificant, only to bring back it towards the end in a usually very touching way. If these were Gendo's last words, it would be as though through them he were telling Ritsuko, "You know, deep down I really did care about you." Kinda sweet. (sigh)

[Magami No ER]

But the Rei face did it for me for the "baasan" theory....

[Reichu]

But the Rei face did it for me for the "baasan" theory....

You do realize I doctored that image to make Rei look evil? -_-;

[Magami No ER]

I'm done trying :crybaby:

[J Solt]

Hehe, don't feel bad. I have to confess I fell for the doctoring too :-[

In fact, I'd look for it on my copy of EoE, but I'd keep getting distracted by Gendo's lip flaps, trying to figure out what he said, and figured I just missed it, lol. :-[

[Reichu]

I only do it to keep you on your toes. ;)

No, the real reason is that after putting those words in Gendo's mouth, it made perfect sense to give Rei that sinister "Baasan wa shitsukoi toka, baasan wa youzumi da toka..." smile. Too bad she's not really smiling like that, or the case on what Gendo says would be closed by now.

[MagicianCamille]

I knew it was a doctored image, Reichu left too many hints. :P



(And the smile looks fake...no offence Reichu...)

[Mr. Tines]

http://evamonkey.com/reichu/stupid/baasan-to-onaji.jpg

Thinking about it, I realised that the idiomatic English (at least my dialect) translation for this would, of course be

"The truth is, you're just like your old woman."

which is most appropriate in having the desired reference to the ReiI scene

[BLACKANGEL32076]

Reluctant Conclusion

But as much as I want to believe this romantic declaration, or even an apology, one thing keeps holding me back from that, and that is the words of Ritsuko’s seiyuu:

“When it came time to do the voice-over, he showed me a single, hidden hint at the last moment. With that one incredible hint, I, and Ritsuko Akagi, were utterly defeated.” (emphasis mine)

The word ‘defeated’ is too strong to be ignored, and that reluctantly convinces me that Gendo was cruel and heartless to her even in the bitter end. And the clue, the “single, hidden hint” that dictates Ritsuko’s final word, and thereby also implies Gendo’s final words to her, has been here all along. So let’s go through the scene and find this “hint”, and thereby get close to Gendo’s words.

Ritsuko has just confessed to Gendo that she’s secretly “changed the MAGI’s program”, calling her deed “a loving daughter’s final request”. With that, she invokes the spirit of her deceased mother inside the MAGI program, and with a look of peaceful determination, asks that they both “end it together.” When the portable terminal inside her pocket doesn’t set off the self-destruct sequence as planned, Ritsuko learns that the Casper program, her mother as a woman, has in actuality denied her access to the sequence. Ritsuko realizes the betrayal and calls out in painful horror: “Mother, how could you [choose] your lover instead of me?”

Ritsuko’s repeated summoning of her mother, which is of course appropriate in this scene, leads me to believe that the “single, hidden hint” may be Ritsuko’s mother herself… and if this is true, then what Gendo said had to be related to Dr. Naoko Akagi herself. So this is what I think may have happened:

RITSUKO (in sad despair)
Mother, how could you [choose] your lover instead of me?

GENDO (draws his gun)
Ritsuko Akagi, the truth is… *you’re just like your mother.*

RITSUKO (surprised, but then re-composes herself, tears welling up in her eyes)
Liar…

I believe this may be the answer we’ve been looking for. Certainly, these words would’ve struck Ritsuko like a knife into her heart. It would’ve made confront the very painful truth about Gendo’s real motives with her. It would’ve made her recall the complex relationship she had with her mother, for, although Ritsuko seems to have a great respect for her mother’s scientific achievements, she herself admitted that she did not love her. Now why did she not love her mother?

Before I answer that question, let’s get to the probable way that Ritsuko learned about Gendo’s true intentions with her. In episode 23, SEELE says that they’re going to attack Gendo with someone who knows the truth. The very next scene shows Ritsuko sitting in front of her computer. Now, picking up from an earlier post by Shin-seiki, I believe that the truth that SEELE told Ritsuko during the meeting was Gendo’s true intentions with her. This is supported by the fact that when Gendo is questioning Ritsuko in the holding cell (in episode 24, after the destruction of the dummy plug system), Ritsuko yells at him in bitter and sad anger: “You had no hopes or expectations of me to start with! I was nothing!” True, this is a realization that she could’ve come to on her own, but, given SEELE’s words, and Ritsuko’s subsequent meeting with SEELE, I think it’s safe to assume that they told her. It may have been something she knew deep down all along, but refused to confront – but hearing it from a third party forced that confrontation with herself.

This leads us to the question as to why Ritsuko did not love her mother. Remember when Ritsuko is sitting in front of her computer after the scene where SEELE wants to send Gendo someone who knows the truth? Well, what is she looking at? She’s looking at a picture of Gendo, her mother, and her younger self! But – and here’s something that shocked me – while Gendo and Naoko are standing close together, Ritsuko is standing apart from them… almost as if she doesn’t want to be near them. And I submit this is because she had realized that Gendo was playing Naoko for a fool. She didn’t love her mother because how could she love someone who was so learned and had accomplished so much as a scientific woman, and yet fail to realize that she was being duped?

And now, the line “… you’re just like your mother” would’ve made Ritsuko heartbreakingly realize that she had fallen into exactly the same trap that her mother did. Truly “like mother, like daughter”, as she says tearfully after destroying the Rei dummy plug system.

Ah, but there’s more that would’ve opened up Ritsuko’s eyes as well as the wound in her heart even more… to let her see exactly how much like her mother Gendo had turned her into. You see, Naoko killed Rei in a fit of rage when she learned from Rei about Gendo’s real intentions with her. And likewise Ritsuko destroyed the entire dummy plug system (i.e., killed all the Rei’s) after learning, presumably from SEELE, about the truth, i.e. of Gendo’s true motives with her.

Furthermore, both turned to suicide: Naoko because she killed Rei and probably couldn’t take it that Gendo was just making fun of her; and Ritsuko because that way she could take Gendo with her – but therein lies the difference, and also the reason why Ritsuko called Gendo a “liar”. The tone of Ritsuko’s seiyuu is, like she said, one of defeat. My interpretation is that Ritsuko does mean ‘liar’ in the sense of “No, I’m not like my mother. She would have done anything for you, but not me, not anymore, because I had the courage to do what she couldn’t, and that was to confront you, to put an end to you.” Nonetheless she realizes in that instant how far along her mother’s footsteps she had already walked, and that her courage was going to get her nowhere. Dr. Naoko Akagi killed Rei I to silence Gendo’s malicious words “old hag”… but that sweet victory was fleeting; it led to her end. She won the battle but lost the war. And the same for Ritsuko. She finally had the courage to stand up to Gendo, but where would that lead her? She was going to meet the same fate as her mother.

And that’s where I think Ritsuko’s tone of defeat comes in. It’s almost as though she understands that the difference between herself and her mother is very very unclear, and the realization has made her too weak to argue for her own defense. She acted differently, yes, but it also has led her to death. So in effect, she’s surrendering to Gendo, saying, “You’re right. And after all this… you still win.”

Final Comments

Ritsuko was generally an emotion-less character throughout the beginning of the series, “hyperlogical” as she’s called. But the series gradually gives her more dimension and character. We see that when she calls the relationships between men and women “illogical”, she’s not saying this insensitively. She’s saying it because she knows it firsthand. By the time we get to the end, we see that she is very much a person who feels and wants to be loved just like anybody else. She seems like a thoughtful, caring woman, someone you’d actually want to get to know if you ever met her. Because of this, I have to say she’s become my favorite character in the series. I feel so much for her, and I can’t help having my eyes well up with tears during her final scene… just like hers do.


:O

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!

I never saw it that way, and this is after all the years I've seen Eva! Damn interesting angle my man. BTW, welcome to the forums!

[OMF]

Hello all. Just thought I throw my own crazy, unsubstansiated, outlook into the debate.

What did he say? What exactly did the old bastard say during that silence? It's driving everybody mad of course, and don't look at me! I haven't the foggiest notion!

I've racked my brains, watched the episodes over and over, read posts, conjectured theories, compared them, tried to justify them, wondered, pondered, thought and thought and thought. "I truely...", "In reality...", "The truth is...". What!!? What you pompous bastard!?! "...I loved you","...i respected you" , "...you are your mother's daughter", "...I reprogrammed Casper", "...Ibuki's your substitute", "...I was afraid of you." , "...I'm sorry it came to this", "...your the child I was caring for" , "... I never loved you" , "...Your just like me", "...I understand you", "...Something about your mother", "..I am your father" , "... 42"!!!! No don't edit it out!! NOOOOOO!!!

Then I watched it twenty times over....
....And I found an answer.

Now it's not for everyone!, but it works for me. Many, many people will disagree. Worse, some may agree! Why anyone would agree is beyond me, but I'll post anyway.
So what did he say? Like I said, I haven't a clue. but I will say this.

It doesn't really matter what he said in that silence...
......
......
(that's your big revelation? no!)
....What really matters is what he said before that.

I'll tell you what he didn't say. He did not say:
Akagi Ritsuko. <The truth is...>

What he actually says is:
Akagi Ritsuko-kun. <The truth is...>

It's right there, and it's SO easy to miss. I caught it just by fluke and had to quadruple check it to make sure I heard it right. In fact, I'm still not sure he actually says it. It's unbelievable! Incredible! He actually says it! Bowl me over and stone the crows! All I could say when I heard it was.... Lies.... ;)

P.S.
Somebody please check this by the way. Does he really say it, or have I gone mad?
P.P.S
Needless to say, I'm talking about the original Japaneese language track here. This tiny detail is shamelessly left out of both the dub AND sub. Sly bastards...
P.P.P.S
If I'm in anyway right, I can smell a rather righteous dub vs sub vs go learn japaneese argument on the horizon. I just like to say, I'm not a troll... Gendou made me do it!! :naughty:

[MagicianCamille]

Uhhmmmm....what? :blink:


That was a very messy post.

[Reichu]

OMF, I'm pretty sure I quoted Gendo's lines in Japanese just a couple of pages back. :P

[Magami No ER]

Hello all. Just thought I throw my own crazy, unsubstansiated, outlook into the debate.

What did he say? What exactly did the old bastard say during that silence? It's driving everybody mad of course, and don't look at me! I haven't the foggiest notion!

I've racked my brains, watched the episodes over and over, read posts, conjectured theories, compared them, tried to justify them, wondered, pondered, thought and thought and thought. "I truely...", "In reality...", "The truth is...". What!!? What you pompous bastard!?! "...I loved you","...i respected you" , "...you are your mother's daughter", "...I reprogrammed Casper", "...Ibuki's your substitute", "...I was afraid of you." , "...I'm sorry it came to this", "...your the child I was caring for" , "... I never loved you" , "...Your just like me", "...I understand you", "...Something about your mother", "..I am your father" , "... 42"!!!! No don't edit it out!! NOOOOOO!!!

Then I watched it twenty times over....
....And I found an answer.

Now it's not for everyone!, but it works for me. Many, many people will disagree. Worse, some may agree! Why anyone would agree is beyond me, but I'll post anyway.
So what did he say? Like I said, I haven't a clue. but I will say this.

It doesn't really matter what he said in that silence...
......
......
(that's your big revelation? no!)
....What really matters is what he said before that.

I'll tell you what he didn't say. He did not say:
Akagi Ritsuko. <The truth is...>

What he actually says is:
Akagi Ritsuko-kun. <The truth is...>

It's right there, and it's SO easy to miss. I caught it just by fluke and had to quadruple check it to make sure I heard it right. In fact, I'm still not sure he actually says it. It's unbelievable! Incredible! He actually says it! Bowl me over and stone the crows! All I could say when I heard it was.... Lies.... ;)

P.S.
Somebody please check this by the way. Does he really say it, or have I gone mad?
P.P.S
Needless to say, I'm talking about the original Japaneese language track here. This tiny detail is shamelessly left out of both the dub AND sub. Sly bastards...
P.P.P.S
If I'm in anyway right, I can smell a rather righteous dub vs sub vs go learn japaneese argument on the horizon. I just like to say, I'm not a troll... Gendou made me do it!! :naughty:
We already said that. And yes, he does say kun. That doesn't give any true clue...because he could have either been mocking her or was serious with her when speaking.

[OMF]

Sorry, in my haste I didn't spot Magami No ER's -kun. I'm guessing it was in the speech bubble on the "sneaky rei" image. (I don't know any japaneese).

As you say Gendou is informal. It only came to me gradually as I was watching the show, but Gendou is unlike everyone else in that he will not append -san, -kun or -chan to anyones name when speaking with them. He never uses formalities at all, except twice to Fuyutsuki (sensei), once when he first meets him (eps 21) and again in EoE when he leaves for the last time. He does not even use formalities when speaking with the JDSF army men or with SEELE. Everyone else in the show uses -chans -kuns and -sans all over the place( so much so I originally thought Shinji's name was Shinji-kun. Is Japan actually like this?)

So apart from Fuyutsuki, who we know he respects, the only other time Gendou uses a postfix formalisation on a name is in EoE to Ritsuko. On top of it all he uses the -kun postfix. Now, I know next to nothing about this stuff, but isn't -kun a more relaxed postfix than -san. Doesn't it indicate a close relative, friend or well known companion?

This postfix addition by Gendou is quite deliberate. It's the only time he ever uses one to someone who isn't Fuyutsuki. It's the only time he EVER uses -kun, and to be honest if you asked me yesterday, I would have said that Gendou would never use -kun, ever. I think it's worth playing up, a lot.

I don't think it was in any way mocking. Gendou is not one to mock, and at such a moment it hardly seems appropriate. Gendou was dead serious here, and both his tone and demeanour suggest he was being absolutly frank in those final moments. He directly states Hontou ni.... He's being completely honest, and Ritsuko knew it. He's not mocking her.

He uses -kun. He says alound her full name, and then -kun. Akagi Ritsuko-kun. With these words, he says I think, "Akagi Ritsuko, one who is very dear to me". He's not saying "I love you", that's not true, and it's just too hammy for Gendou. He wouldn't say it even if it was true. He's not saying, "Your my lesser who must respect me". Gendou expects respect regardless. What he is saying, simply, is that she was not just another pawn to him, nor was she simply his bed-warmer. Here he is, a man who abandoned his own son, who treats human beings like chess pieces, who has shown not one fleck of remourse for any of his terrible crimes, at the eleventh hour, telling his shattered adversary, a woman who thinks he never cared at all, who thinks he used her like so many others and betrayed her at his convienience, here he is saying out loud;

"Akagi Ritsuko, you matter to me"

No other words are nessesary. Ritsuko is paralysed by such revelation. What did he say next? It doesn't matter. She likely didn't hear the words. Neither do we. All she can do is utter one retort, with her last breath. Is she defeated, ruined by his honesty and her own regrets? Or does she at the last reject him, passing knowing that despite her desolation, she is at least free of his spell? That was always my reading of her last line. She knew in her final despair she had lost everything, but at least she had lost Gendou as well.

[Reichu]

Just so you know, -kun can be mocking. The best example of this is female characters in anime who refer to all males as whatever-kun if they can get away with it; check out what's-her-face from "Excel Saga" (the coworker of the three goons). She was certainly using it in a demeaning manner. "Talking down" to her male coworkers, in other words.

Guys also tend to use it between themselves, but they also have a habit of using rather rude and informal Japanese to one another, as well. Typical males -- you know, calling your best buddy a "bastard" or a "daft bugger". ;) Shinji and Kaworu called each other -kun, but the deal with them is what I'd hardly consider typical male relations... I suppose the connotations are not necessarily demeaning.

You don't often hear it appended to female's names... Fuyutsuki called Yui "Yui-kun", and we all know how well he thought of her. :naughty:

I ought to stop babbling and do some proper research, as opposed to just letting my brain sewage spill out all over the place.

[OMF]

I just can't pass it off as mockery. I think it's the most sentimental thing Gendou ever says, and I think that it's that tiny postfix, and not the hidden words, that is the true cause of Ritsuko's reaction. As I say, she may have been so shocked that she did not hear the other words, so we don't either. So they're not important.

The other -kuns in the show mostly back me up. Misato of course uses -kun almost excessively when speaking either to or about Shinji. She even says it when he's not there and even when drunk!(eps 15) In contrast to Shinji who uses -san for Misato, even at home, and even in states of panic (eps 07,eps 16). This is just to contrast the differences in postfix use in the show. Shinji uses -san to keep her at a distance, Misato uses -kun to try to close the distance. Now Shinji does use formalities for other adults, Ritsuko, Kaji, and he is quite a formal person.(He's actually an arch-prude but that's for another thread) He does not however use formalities of any kind when speaking with or of the other pilots or his classmates. He seems to make that distinction except when speaking with or of Kaworu. And in this instance he uses -kun. Significant no? Is this the only -kun he uses?

Another significant -kun is Rei's use of it for Shinji. She refers to him as Ikari-kun. This is an even more important use of postfix. She refers to him as Ikari-kun to distinguish him from Gendou,whom she refers to as Commander Ikari. I think she first uses this in eps 14 during her dream in Unit One. Note in this sequence she appends formal titles to Gendou, Katsuragi and Akagi( She also refer to Asuka as "Nigoki Pilot" which is quite a revealing little line). But she uses -kun for Shinji. More revealing instances of this are of course to be seen in eps 16 and of course eps 23, as well as EoE.

If i wanted to play it up even more(and I do ;) ), I might argue that this is what the director Anno intended. We'd all be so busy trying to figure out what we didn't hear Gendou say that we'd overlook what we actually do hear him say! If intended, it was a brilliant stroke.

[Mr. Tines]

http://members.tripod.com/virtualmekton/ate-iii-iv.html gives a beginner's guide to these things.

Books on the language I've read suggest that -kun is used for adolescent males and by men being "all lads together", but is strictly (originally) used when addressing one's social inferiors (e.g. by boss to subordinates).

The usages in the show tend to follow this - the committee talk to Gendo as Ikari-kun; it's almost universally Shinji-kun (except when he's Ikari-kun - or in his room sign as Shin-chan). It's the use of -kun for women that is problematic : is it talking down, or is it acknowledging her as "one of the boys"? Only context can really tell; and it's rather opaque in this case.

[Magami No ER]

-kun familer title after name of colleague or student, usually male. Used for male friends and relatives. It can be used for women as well, but typically is not.

By that defination, -kun would appear mocking for Ritsuko. Any reason it's not typical for females to be called -kun?

[Mr. Tines]

-kun familer title after name of colleague or student, usually male. Used for male friends and relatives. It can be used for women as well, but typically is not.

By that defination, -kun would appear mocking for Ritsuko. Any reason it's not typical for females to be called -kun?

Because that's the way things are.

It's like asking the same question of the (slightly archaic) English usage of "Master" as the title for boys didn't apply to girls (for whom Miss would be used).

[Magami No ER]

Sure, but what does it mean if -kun is used for girls, as it has been...

[Mr. Tines]

Sure, but what does it mean if -kun is used for girls, as it has been...

The most obvious circumstance would be in the boss-to-subordinate mode (there's a fairly unambiguous one of those in RahXephon, where Itsuki is curtly dismissing Sayoko; and the use of Yui-kun is probably a friendlier version of the same); though it might be used for a girl who is "just one of the lads" in the informal mode. (Or maybe even overtones of both as in Touga to Utena in SKU)

In this case Gendo is actually being more formal than he usually is (i.e. rudely dispensing with all such social niceties); so I'm not sure what this was meant to convey.

[OMF]

Done a little research, turns out there seems to be a female version of -kun, -ko. One of the sites mentioned something about certain honorifics being unsuitable for whatever reason. Maybe Ritsuko-ko was too stacato? It would be nice to hear from a native Japanese speaker 's opinions on this. this sort of thing could be regional as well. (I'm nearly positive he says -kun though)

Anyway I left out possibly the best -kun of them all. Fuyutsuki of course refers to Yui in the way. All through episode 21 of course.(He also refers to the elder Akagi in this way, though she seems a little old to be his student, and she's in a different field.) More critically he refers to Yui in this way during EoE;
In Air:
Fuyutsuki: I understand. Give my regards to Yui-kun.(Exit Gendou)
And again in, Sincerely Yours:
Fuyutsuki: Ikari, did you finally see Yui-kun again? (Gets Instrumentalitised, Exit Fuyutsuki)

Now given their relationship, Fuyutsuki's feelings, and Yui's sacrafice, you cannot tell me that Fuyutsuki's usage of -kun is in any way diminuating. It is a mark of complete, honest and intimate respect. A big "You matter to me" if I ever heard one.

P.S.
Is instrumentalitised a verb? ;)

[Shin-seiki]

P.S.
Is instrumentalitised a verb? ;)The prefered verbal usage is "complimented". "Instrumentality" and "Complimentation" are the same word in Japanese.

[Mr. Tines]

P.S. Is instrumentalitised a verb?

That's complemented (as in complete); but "tangified" will do, at least to describe the externally visible physical effects. Or subsumed, or uploaded (into Instrumentality), if you're after the persona and not the corpus.

[Shin-seiki]

That's complemented (as in complete); but "tangified" will do, at least to describe the externally visible physical effects. Or subsumed, or uploaded (into Instrumentality), if you're after the persona and not the corpus.Haste makes waste -_-;

[Reichu]

I have never, ever heard of -ko as a "female" version of -kun...

And OMF, -kun is most definitely what Gendo says (says the person who regularly combs the Japanese scripts during debates), so you can stop worrying your little head. ;)

Speaking of Gendo, I recently searched for any instances in the show where Gendo spoke polite Japanese. Only times I could find were in his initial encounters with Fuyutsuki. No sooner than Fuyutsuki has seen the prototype hanging from the ceiling, Gendo resumes his normal speech patterns, and I don't think he ever bothers giving Kozo the benefit of politeness again.

[OMF]

No sooner than Fuyutsuki has seen the prototype hanging from the ceiling, Gendo resumes his normal speech patterns, and I don't think he ever bothers giving Kozo the benefit of politeness again.

Except in EoE Air when they part for the final time. Maybe Gendou was getting sentimental in his final hours? :naughty:

I only found the -ko one one site, and as you say, he says -kun. Is everyone still taking the mockery -kun angle?

[Reichu]

Oh, hey, you're right...

"Fuyutsuki-sensei... Ato o tanomimasu."

[Tominator2]

Gendo says: "I have solved the Riemann Hypothesis". He is truly a man without mercy.

[Vaikyuko]

Gendo says: "I have solved the Riemann Hypothesis". He is truly a man without mercy.

Great. Absolute randomness, with no source or anything, no theory explaining how that is, etc.

Mind telling us a few things? Namely, how you came to that conclusion and WTF the "Riemann Hypothesis" is?

[Dr. Nick]

and WTF the "Riemann Hypothesis" is?

The Riemann Hypothesis is WTF (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/RiemannHypothesis.html).

[Tominator2]

Great. Absolute randomness, with no source or anything, no theory explaining how that is, etc.

Mind telling us a few things? Namely, how you came to that conclusion and WTF the "Riemann Hypothesis" is?

The Riemann Hypothesis is the big unsolved question in number theory right, on par with the (recently proved) Fermat's Last Theorem. Anybody providing a proof (either way) would instantly become a math god. I will skip the (not really that hard) specifics unless there is general demand.

How did I come up with that idea? I thought "what could Gendo say that would really piss Ritsuko off?" keeping in mind that she's a scientist and knows a bunch of math. Why, that he could do something technical that she couldn't

Having my tongue firmly planted in my cheek helped.

[Gandalf452]

I havent read through this whole thread yet, but let me just jump in here with my theory. Sorry Shin-Seiki but I dont agree with you.

Ive always believed that Gendo's absent line had to do with the incident that just happened. I think Gendo somehow found out about Ritsuko's little plot to blow up the facility and told her so. Possible lines might be;

"I found out about your little plan."
"I can still control your mother." I like this one personally.
"The Magi have been repaired."
"The Magi are still under my control."

Ritsuko, seeing her hopes for both revenge and for stopping Gendo's plan, as well as facing the knowledge that she's about to die, can only reply with "Liar."

[Matsu'o Tsurayaba]

I have heard rumors that Gendou really did say something to Ritsuko.But it was somehow edited out of the EoE.I have the dubbed english version,so when i first saw it.When Gendou was silent,i knew he had to have said something.But what?I have heard alot of different theories...

[Reichu]

I havent read through this whole thread yet, but let me just jump in here with my theory. Sorry Shin-Seiki but I dont agree with you.

"I haven't read the entirety of your argument or seen the evidence presented. But I still know that, whatever you say, it's wrong."

[OMF]

You know, the one thing that still bothers me is Gendou's motivation for saying anything at all. He's taken a moment to mouth something rather than simply blow her head clean off. It's not a stretch to say that whatever he said, it was important enough for Gendou to drop his stony facade, even if only for a moment, and say something.
What's motivating him to say anything here?

There's only one other times Gendou ever drops his facade to any great extent are when Rei seems in mortal peril in episodes #05 and #19, and in episode #24 when we are shown a brief glimpse of Gendou being shall we say, "not quite himself".
http://img100.echo.cx/img100/7058/gendouperturbed7di.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
How would you say he looks here? Confused? Distressed? Remourseful? He's definitely perturbed for whatever reason. I think that Gendou probably did empathise with Ritsko on some level. She was his long term lover after all. If he did, then his hidden words to her were more likely to be sympathetic or contrite, rather than contemptuous or vitriolic.

If his words were a little softer, you could compare the scene to the one in #25' were the JSSDF soldier drops his cold professionalism for just a moment, and expresses the regret he's feeling for having to be Shinji's (would be) executioner. Nothing personal, kid.

Along the line of a more remourseful Gendou, you could postulate his words as:

"I truely am sorry. It's nothing personal."

Which might fit Gendou's motives, but could have trouble with Ritsuko's later "Liar".


That said I'm suddenly reminded of Michael Corleone's words to Tom Hagen

Tom, don't let anyone kid you. It's all personal, every bit of business. Every piece of **** every man has to eat every day of his life is personal. They call it business. OK. But it's personal as hell.

[ShyanHaiJin]

I'm pretty convinced that it's something about her mom. I thought he said something like "really, your mom's a better woman." (Casper, modelled after her mom as a woman, rejected Ritsuko in favour of Gendo) Then she would say "usotsuki!" (either as rejection [maybe she thought she did better than her mom], or she thought Gendo was lying when he says something positive about her mom) But I guess "you're just like your mom" works well.

Why don't we see what the Japanese fans think
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&as_qdr=all&q=%22%E8%B5%A4%E6%9C%A8%22+%22%E3%83%AA% E3%83%84%E3%82%B3%22+%22%E6%9C%AC%E5%BD% 93%E3%81%AB%22+%22%E5%98%98%E3%81%A4%E3% 81%8D%22&btnG=Search&meta=

[Soluzar]

There's a follow-up to this thread. A whole other thread where Shin-Seiki continued his analysis a long time afterwards, once he'd had chance to really think about it, and that might be relevant to you three who just posted.

[ShyanHaiJin]

Lol, even on this Japanese site they think Gendou said "I love you"
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:LAvlFK9VsusJ:anime.dot.th ebbs.jp/1078036264.html+%22%E8%B5%A4%E6%9C%A8%22 +%22%E3%83%AA%E3%83%84%E3%82%B3%22+%22%E 6%9C%AC%E5%BD%93%E3%81%AB%22+%22%E5%98%9 8%E3%81%A4%E3%81%8D%22&hl=en
It's way down on line 445
「赤木リツコ君、本当に愛していたよ」
「嘘つき・・・」

[ShyanHaiJin]

OR... since he said Ritsuko KUN... maybe he said

"really... you're actually a boy"
"... liar..."

[Reichu]

I don't know if this would make any difference, but the way "Usotsuki" is written in the script itself is: 「ウソつき」.

[Gandalf452]

"I haven't read the entirety of your argument or seen the evidence presented. But I still know that, whatever you say, it's wrong."

Jeez, talk about jumping all over the new guy! Im just saying I disagree with his initial posts is all. You know, the original topic of the thread and all.

Soluzar can you point us in the direction of this other thread?

[Shin-seiki]

Jeez, talk about jumping all over the new guy! Im just saying I disagree with his initial posts is all. You know, the original topic of the thread and all.New guy?! You were here when I first arrived more than three years ago!Soluzar can you point us in the direction of this other thread?http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=170703

[Soluzar]

Jeez, talk about jumping all over the new guy! Im just saying I disagree with his initial posts is all. You know, the original topic of the thread and all.

Well, while I can understand that, if you do find time to read everything that Shin-Seiki has written on this topic, you might find that you come to agree with him more. His views on this matter appear to have been refined over time, and his new thread has an enormous amount more to say on the topic.

Soluzar can you point us in the direction of this other thread?

Gomen. The author himself beat me to it.

Perhaps you could answer one thing for me yourself, Shin-Seiki. I lost track of that thread somewhat, towards the very end of its active life, and I never was entirely clear if you managed to finish what you set out to do? I think when I have a few hours free, I need to read through your work on this topic again.

[Gandalf452]

New guy?! You were here when I first arrived more than three years ago!http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=170703

I meant new to this thread, but thanks for rememberin me. :wub:

I think im gonna stay out of both these threads till im done reading them. Ive spoke my peace.

[Shin-seiki]

Perhaps you could answer one thing for me yourself, Shin-Seiki. I lost track of that thread somewhat, towards the very end of its active life, and I never was entirely clear if you managed to finish what you set out to do? I think when I have a few hours free, I need to read through your work on this topic again.No, I just intended to take a short break to catch my breath and collect my thoughts. But, me being me, laziness and procrastination have made that short break drag out for months now. However, I certainly have plenty left to say about the Requarium scene, and Gendo's confrontation with Ritsuko in #24, etc...

[Soluzar]

No, I just intended to take a short break to catch my breath and collect my thoughts. But, me being me, laziness and procrastination have made that short break drag out for months now. However, I certainly have plenty left to say about the Requarium scene, and Gendo's confrontation with Ritsuko in #24, etc...

Such was my suspicion. It is good to know that you intend to continue, and heaven knows you got enough done back then that you should feel quite entitled to a break, however long it is. ^_^

I for one will be awaiting your further findings with interest.

[OMF]

I don't know if this would make any difference, but the way "Usotsuki" is written in the script itself is: 「ウソつき」.

I am highly nonplussed. Is there implied meaning in the way the word is written?

[Mr. Tines]

I am highly nonplussed. Is there implied meaning in the way the word is written?

katakana U SO, hiragana tsu ki - it's a mix of the two syllabic scripts. Hence Reichu's musings.

To the extent that katakana function like block capitals, perhaps it might indicate some emphasis on the first part; or perhaps some other fracture in the parsing of the word.

[ShyanHaiJin]

ウソ = 嘘 = lie
Add つき and it becomes 嘘つき= liar
But why use Katakana for uso...
Also, just discovered 君 = -kun can be used for girls too. The person addressing the girl-kun must have higher social status. Sometimes teachers can address both boys and girls as -kun

[Reichu]

Well, certainly, the way the line is written would influence the sorts of results you get in Google.

Strangely, I don't think I've ever needed to deal with the kanji form of 'uso' before. Some kanji have gone out of favor over the years (I don't know if 'uso' is one of them, tho) and you'll commonly see the word rendered in katakana instead. (That's one of the uses for katakana 'they' don't tell you about. ;) )

[Soluzar]

ウソ = 嘘 = lie
Add つき and it becomes 嘘つき= liar
But why use Katakana for uso...
Also, just discovered 君 = -kun can be used for girls too. The person addressing the girl-kun must have higher social status. Sometimes teachers can address both boys and girls as -kun

Or upperclasswomen. Which doesn't sound right. What I mean to say is that just as an older boy in school might expect to be called -sempai, (like my charming avatar) he might call the younger boy -kun. The same seems to apply to girls.

[Reichu]

Well, being older generally implies higher social stature in Japanese society. Generally. (A situation like a rich brat and vis older servant would be one exception.) I'm no expert my any means, but I would never expect to see an older person, even a subordinate, being called '-kun'...

[Soluzar]

Well, being older generally implies higher social stature in Japanese society. Generally. (A situation like a rich brat and vis older servant would be one exception.) I'm no expert my any means, but I would never expect to see an older person, even a subordinate, being called '-kun'...

Perhaps mockingly... to deliberately insult the elder?

[thewayneiac]

Perhaps mockingly... to deliberately insult the elder?

That's quite possible. In Nadia, Gargoyle calls Captain Nemo "Nemo-kun".

[Reichu]

Well... which one of them is older?

[thewayneiac]

Well... which one of them is older?

I don't recall them giving their ages, but I'm pretty sure Nemo is older.
A more important point is that Nemo is explicitly of much higher social status, and the villainous Gargoyle is plainly using the -kun honorific in a condescending manner.

[Reichu]

If he wanted to be REALLY condescending, he could have gone for -chan. ;;D

[OMF]

What about Fuyutsuki's use of -kun for Naoko? Or Shinji's use of -kun for Kaworu? In Shinji's case, it's worth noting that he never uses -kun for Touji and Kensuke, so why for Kaworu?

Also Gendou's -kun seems pregnant with meaning as he is extremely miserly in his use of honorifics of any kind.

Maybe the standard explanations are being simplistic rather than complete, giving only the simplest interpretation. Perhaps they're are layers of meaning, or different interpretations of -kun, depending on the situation. I took its meaning from the show to be a sort of informal honorific, like the opposite of -san really. Has anyone asked someone who's from or has lived a while in japan about this?

[Soluzar]

What about Fuyutsuki's use of -kun for Naoko? Or Shinji's use of -kun for Kaworu? In Shinji's case, it's worth noting that he never uses -kun for Touji and Kensuke, so why for Kaworu?

Also Gendou's -kun seems pregnant with meaning as he is extremely miserly in his use of honorifics of any kind.

In both of those cases, I believe that it signifies that the person in question is someone to whom the speaker is affectionate towards. Both of the less-than-formal suffixes seem to carry this connotation, in some situations, and you will note that the affection that I postulate is normally considered a matter of fact in these instances.

[Mr. Tines]

-kun seems to be the default honorific for young men (as well as between blokes being all lads together). My reading is that Fuyutsuki uses -kun in the essentially hierarchic form, being supervisor to Yui and boss to Naoko, though his style is more avuncular than lofty.

Shinji's use of Kaworu-kun is clearly more formal and respectful than the unadorned use of his classmate's names. In their first meeting, the form looks like the neutral default for young men who are strangers; the later use, especially at the end of ep#24, is a measure of continuing esteem - real rather than conventional honouring (but with the affectionate/intimate shades that Soluzar mentions).

The same is probably the case for Gendo - while Kaji as a bumptious acquaintance from college days might -chan Ritsuko, I can't see Gendo doing so, even in the throes of passion (or vice-versa).

[ShyanHaiJin]

Ah... I really need to work on my Kanji and grammar. I dropped the usotsuki altogether but it appears the Kanji "uso" is still used quite often. Anyways, here's yet another "I love you" except this one seems to elaborate, stuff like you're so kawaii and my only woman or something like that... lol...
｢赤木リツコくん、ほんとうに愛していたよ。可愛い我が娘として･･･本当に愛した唯 一人の女として･･･｣

｢･･･嘘つき。｣
edit: oh yeah, the link http://www.iris.dti.ne.jp/~gbd03542/kizou/ss_siba1.html

[OMF]

Another use of the -kun honorific, one which can be chewed over at length.

Hikari uses it in her scene in the evening with Touji in the classroom. And the way in which she uses it is most interesting indeed. You will have to watch the scene to see what I mean. I believe this is the only time Hikari uses an honorific for Touji.

But does it have bearing on Gendou's later usage?


I think this -kun honorific might have meaning beyond what the standard textbooks are telling us. Perhaps we should send someone to inquire from an actual japanese resident? Just on this, what are all the contemporary prevailing Eva theories of the japanese fanboi? Do we have any diplomatic links to our eastern counterparts? Or at least an informal channel?

[Reichu]

Are you sure you're not overanalyzing again, OMF?

[OMF]

He does say -kun after all. Why not go looking for comparisons?

[RyoTD]

Yeah, Hikari called Shinji Ikari-kun when she chewed him out for making Asuka cry in Ep. 9.

And the point is?

[Vaikyuko]

Are you sure you're not overanalyzing again, OMF?

Wait, you mean he doesn't always overanalyze? :w00t: J/K, OMF.

Methinks he is overanalyzing in this particular case. :P

[OMF]

To be fair, the complexity of overanalysee vindicates me most of the time. Forgive me. My first forays into Evangelion were attempts to decode the conspiracy and find out what the hell was going on in third impact(a near futile task), so I've a tendency err on the side of subtley and undertone in Eva. Not that I don't think this isn't worth doing, mind!


Seriously, If we want to try and figure out what Gendou said, then we'll also probably have to try and figure out why he said it, then fit it all into why Ritsuko reacts the way she does. It's all very well to say he was being cold or contemptuous, but does this actually fit?

This is, apart from Fuyutsuki-sensei, is Gendou's only honorific. Coming directly before his unheard words, I think its presence has huge bearing on the tone and content of the following silence. The condescending -kun angle isn't really backed up by other uses, or lack thereof(Asuka uses no -kun for Shinji), so I'm leaning towards a more empathic or possibly even contrite Gendou here.

I pretty sure this -kun is the only one Hikari uses for Touji. I can't adequately describe the way she uses it, but the usage is not really supportive of a condescending -kun. Another -kun to think about while I'm at it. Shinji's "Pool Groupies" in episode #05!

[Mr. Tines]

-kun is more formal than the use of no honorific at all - it's a bit like the difference between calling someone by their full forename, rather than the usual pet form (e.g. Steven rather than Steve).

[drgenestarwind]

i just had an epiphany about it while watching an episode (dont remember which)...er must have been "he was aware he was still a child." i believe he said something he said directly to Naoka before, explains the connection gendo-ritsuko-naoka... i think he said "I have no regrets about my work," or something along those lines. and ritsuko, being so well informed about everything thats ever happened with nerv and gehern, simply replies, "liar".

[Ornette]

You're thinking of ep21, right?
Naoko: Are you allright?

Gendou: I don't have regrets about my job.

Naoko: You lie! You still remember Yui-san.

Naoko: But that's fine with me.

I think that was brought up in one of the Ritsuko threads that Shin-Seiki started. I had thought of that when I watched this ep right after I got my DC dvds, but the tone of the "liar"/"you lie" sounded different.

[rockthing]

Well,
not being entirely literate on the original Japanese dialog, but
having some experience with the Japanese language in general
I'll just add a few things
before I listen for intonation nuances.

In schools teachers usually refer to all male students as OOO-kun
and all female students as OOO-san
with OOO being the student's given name.

-kun is used quite liberally in informal contexts, but
is supposed to be used for male associates who are younger
than the speaker.

Occasionally, in very informal situations,
I've heard it used in reference to female subjects.
In these cases it has always seemed to me (I stress 'seemed')
that the female in question is considered 'one of the guys', ie
having interests and hobbies that are a bit otaku-kei or manyaku
which the male speaker can converse easily and that speaker also
may have a close friendship with the female character in question.

A lot of the use of -chan and -kun is based as much on the speaker's
character as the character or position of the one addressed.
Some people just affix -chan to everyone and everything, regardless.
I doubt they do this in a formal work situation, but I don't know.

Hikari scolding Shinji with -kun may have emphasized her slightly
superior position as 'class rep', or to at least make him feel the tone
of her scolding more.

In contrast, Shinji's affection for Kaworu is expressed by the use of -kun.
He doesn't seem to have the same sense of awe and love for Touji et al.

I am usually forgiven any implied disrespect when using -kun as I am not
a native Japanese speaker, but I have seen people be embarassed about
referring to someone older than them as -kun before they had realized
that they were younger than the person they were addressing.

Again, different people take the age difference matter more or less seriously.
Some people will go so far as to call someone their own age, but older by
a month or two as their superior. These people will often determine the age
of everyone in a group situation as soon as possible, perhaps even before
asking for names!

On the other hand, in some circles, it is common to address one by whatever
name is popular for them in that group, regardless of age.
So, if someone is always being called OOO-chan, then even new members or
younger members may refer (or be allowed to refer) to that person as OOOchan
just out of convention.

I tend to think of -chan more like adding -y to names.
Stevie, Robby, Paully, Tommy, etc.
It is almost universally used for familiar female names,
Reichan, Acchan, Kyochan, Naochan, but
as nicknames go in any culture (it seems) the name is usually derived
from some common experience some time in the earlier stages of friendship.

I don't think there's going to be a cut and dry solution based on -kun and -chan
simply by addressing the text-book semantics of their use.
It's far more complicated than that.

I'm still a total novice when it comes to the depths of the Eva story, so
until I shed my noob cloak I won't be able to comment any further.
:)

[Batous Eye]

Ritsuko thinks about it for a sec...
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Ritsuko/Ep25'_Liar09.jpg

(Needless to say, I don't think the apparent concurrence of these two images is a coincidence; it is the point of this whole post that the obvious resemblence, not merely in the expression on her face, but the fact that her face is framed and lit in exactly the same way, is deliberate, and is designed to indicate that she is going back in her mind to what SEELE told her in ep23'.)


You entire argument hinges on this connection between _Liar09.jpg and the same exact face in the interrogation. I agree with you that the animation absolutely implies a connection. But what is the connection? She makes that face when she finds out Gendo sailed her up the river to Seele. (At least in her mind). It seems to me you could say that she is remembering this moment, and nothing more. The mystery then remains since we don't know how to interpret this connection.

[Reichu]

I think that was brought up in one of the Ritsuko threads that Shin-Seiki started. I had thought of that when I watched this ep right after I got my DC dvds, but the tone of the "liar"/"you lie" sounded different.

She just says, "Uso!" Uso = lie.

Asuka also responds with this to the news of Kaji's death, and Shinji goes, "Uso da! Uso da! Uso da!" ("It's a lie!") when he learns about Kaworu-kun.

However, after Gendo tells her... nothing at all, Ritsuko replies, "Usotsuki" = "liar".

</randomness>

[Mr. sickVisionz]

So we can all agree that Gendo basically said something that implied some affection for Ritsuko, and then she calls him a liar?

I figured he said something a bit more sentimental (and obviously a lie) like "I love you" type of thing after it. Gendo is a jerk and he's horrible on women. When you really go back in his past, its like the only way he knows how to solve a problem is to have sex with a woman who knows the answer. From Yui to Ritsuko's mom to Ritsuko (in the middle i'd argue he was boning Rei, but theres no concrete 100% way to prove that): he has sex with women to get what he wants. Thats like his first approach to problem solving. He wanted to get in more with the early stages of instrumentality, and its hinted that he starts boning Yui just because she ha the connections. Later when it suits his purpose, he bones Ritsuko's mom. Haha, and when she dies he still needs stuff so he just starts boning her daughter. The only woman in the history of Evangelion to ever hold a position of power and not get ****ed down by Gendo is Misato.

Haha, that dude is a jerk to women. The smile on his face during that scene with him, Ritsuko and Rei let me know he was being the same Gendo i'd always come to love. At that point it had to be obvious that Gendo has no real love for anyone. Haha, when his some asks him why he summoned him, the only reason he can give is, "I have a use for you." In that situation, him saying something affectionate actually would have easily gotten Shinji into the Eva, but Gendo loves pulling the "jerk move" at every possible opportunity. That smile on his face lets me know he was being a jerk to her with whatever words he said.

Its also ironic that the only time in the whole series where you see him not in the power seat is when Rei rejects him for Shinji. Thats like the only time you see that he has vulnerablities. Even when the EVA bites his head off, dude is calm cool and reserved the entire time. Theres no panic to him. No sweat.

[Mr. sickVisionz]

Damn, after being taken to my post i'm just now realizing this thread is 15 pages deep.

[Reichu]

When you really go back in his past, its like the only way he knows how to solve a problem is to have sex with a woman who knows the answer. From Yui to Ritsuko's mom to Ritsuko (in the middle i'd argue he was boning Rei, but theres no concrete 100% way to prove that): he has sex with women to get what he wants. Thats like his first approach to problem solving.

More like, "that's the sort of impression people would take away from his character even though it's not really supported by anything but superficial evidence".

He wanted to get in more with the early stages of instrumentality, and its hinted that he starts boning Yui just because she ha the connections.

I'm starting to suspect that said "hint" might have been telling us more about the way that Gendo was publicly perceived than the actual nature of how he approached Yui...

Later when it suits his purpose, he bones Ritsuko's mom.

It's more like she was doing a bit of "jumping".

Haha, and when she dies he still needs stuff so he just starts boning her daughter.

See the above.

[Batous Eye]

[/b]Yes -- Gendou is actually impotent, Viagra has no effect, Shinji had to be conceived via in vitro fertilization, and the only reason Naoko and Ritsuko ever put up with him is because he has "the hands of a dyke".

Hahahahaha Reichu hahahahh no comment!

[Ackerz]

Puting a bit more seriousnes into this thread. IIRRC there is no accual evidence that Ritsuko's mother has commited suicide (if there is then my whole theory is shot to hell). If Ritsuko's mother was killed by somebody then my money would be on Gendou, she has killed his only connection to his Yui which would make him preety pissed off. This could be supported by the visual of Ritsuko's mother right after she has stangled Rei 1, I have perssonaly iterpreted that as a "Oh my ****ing God he is going to kill me for this" look.
On this note if Gendou really has killed her and he wanted to stun Ritsuko or just wanted to confess (which would kind of fit into his personality) to her his last words could take this course of action:
Gendou:"In reality (using the direct translation) I have killed your mother."
To which she would answer in disbelief because she was in love with the man that has killed her mother.

[Reichu]

Newtype Filmbook 8 rather straightforwardly says, "She throws her body down from the Command Center" (Kanojo wa mizukara no karada o, hatsureijo kara nage-otosu).

[Michiyo_Yoshiku]

Watch AMV Hell and this long thread will be answered *silly grin*

[LuigiHann]

I'm sure this has been suggested before
"Ritsuko Akagi, the truth is... I am your father."

More seriously, what if it was "I didn't mean for any of this to happen" or "I didn't intend to hurt you" or some crap like that?

[Reichu]

I'm sure this has been suggested before
"Ritsuko Akagi, the truth is... I am your father."

And Rokubungi-kun would've been, like, HOW old?

More seriously, what if it was "I didn't mean for any of this to happen" or "I didn't intend to hurt you" or some crap like that?

I like my version better.

http://www.evacommentary.org/images_capdoc/reichu_baasan-to-onaji.jpg

"Akagi Ritsuko-kun. The truth is, you're just like that old hag."

[LuigiHann]

"You've become like your mother" (or "you've become like the old hag" if you prefer) might do it, because for some reason that seems more ominous.
If it weren't for the "Truly--" at the beginning, I'd want it to be
"Say hi to your mom for me" (thinking of Biff's line from Back to the Future)

[Reichu]

You don't have to translate "hontou ni" as "truly". It's a very flexible little doodad, so you'd have lots of options (http://www2.alc.co.jp/ejr/index.php?word_in=%96%7B%93%96%82%C9&word_in2=%82%A9%82%AB%82%AD%82%AF%82%B1&word_in3=PVawEWi72JXCKoa0Je) to pick from depending on what the context is. Since we have no idea what the heck Gendo says, something more "accomodating" like, uh, "the truth is..." is probably the best option.

(Incidentally, the words I picked for Gendo can be translated more than one way, too. ;) "Old hag" is just funny, and all.)

I dunno, of all the things that could have come out of Gendo's mouth, some calm little statement about "you and yo' mom" feels rather more satisfying than the other stuff I've heard. "Oh you liar, you! But it's so true!" :BANG!:

[OMF]

Truely.....

.....Soylent Green is People....

[Takumi]

"Ritsuko Akagi...the truth is...4chan for the win!"

Gendou rocks the 4chan handcore. He's like the ultimate Tripcode ******..

[buatti]

Maybe it's just something completely out of the box :|. Mind you I read up to page 5 I think, so I'm not sure if there is a final solution.

For instance, Ritsuko could be a clone! She's alive and living when she joins GEHRIN and then Naoko kills herself! Ritsuko is then killed for some reason or another that I'm not sure of :P... and Her mothers soul is implanted into her, hence a reason to dislike Yui or Rei. Also the replacement issue could be because their both clones.

"Ritsuko, In reality, you're a clone"
"Liar..."

Lol woah am I going on a long shot! So she destroys the dummy plug system and then finds out that shes a clone herself!

Nah, just pointing out the craziness that it could be.

[Mr. sickVisionz]

More like, "that's the sort of impression people would take away from his character even though it's not really supported by anything but superficial evidence".


Whoa whoa... so you're suggesting that Gendo didn't have sex with anyone? Not Yui, Not Ritsuko's mom, nor Ritsuko herself?

[Reichu]

Whoa whoa... so you're suggesting that Gendo didn't have sex with anyone? Not Yui, Not Ritsuko's mom, nor Ritsuko herself?
I wasn't questioning the "having sex" part, but the reasons you suggested for the "why".

[faetaleti]

Michiyo Yoshiku what is AMV hell? and where is the thread explaining it? THANKKSS !!

[Ornette]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22amv+hell%22&btnG=Google+Search

[faetaleti]

I agree with Gundampilotspaz's outlook,

For I don't feel like Gendo's last words to Ritsuko would have been if he put her infront of Seele to be interograted or not. I felt that Anno made that obvious that she knew he put her there instead of Rei. Just my opinion ! ^^
And that maybe considering Ritsuko states, "like mother like daughter" and mentions her mother before Gendo says something to her that it has to do with more an aspect of "a relationship" than if he threw her in front of Seele. Since Gendo had a previous relationship with Naoko and had no respect at all for her and then screws around with her daughter. I think theres a link there from how Ritsuko reacts, for her mothers "woman part" of the Magi betrays her in a way. So in a sense she really doesnt want to be associated with her mother right now. And therefore I think maybe his words were, "The truth is, you were just like your mother." and thats why she responds "liar." For she can't take the humiliation.

Just an idea !

[Eva_Yojimbo]

Hi everyone, this is my first post on the forum. I'm brand new to NGE and just saw it for the first time a month ago (I know, I know, 'where have I been?'), but I've seen it 2 more times since then.

I must say, there's alot in the series that still has my head all fuzzy. So when my head's fuzzy, I turn to the interweb to find me lucky answers, and it's been quite educational reading the Eva boards recently.

One thing I'm almost 100% sure of though is Gendo's line to Ritsuko in EoE, and if I'm saying stuff that's been said 1 billion times, I apologize and please ignore it. We know that Anno uses recurring motifs in NGE all the time - in the dialogue, in the visuals, pretty much everywhere. So I kept thinking that Gendo's last line has to be hinted at somewhere in the show.

Low and behold, the second time around what do I see? The "flashback" episode (sorry I don't have all the titles and Ep numbers memorized yet) when Ritsuko first comes to NERV. After Yui's fateful (kinda) encounter with Shogouki we see Naoko, frustrated, talking to Gendo with Ritsuko watching in the background. The conversation goes something like (where are you all getting the quotes from the show, btw? That would be handy):

Naoko: Is it true?
Gendo: Yes, I have no regrets concerning my work.
Naoko: Liar! You just can't forget about Yui, can you?


Remember Ritsuko talking about hating her mother? Me thinks her affection for Gendo started long before she joined NERV and when she found out her mother was involved, she wasn't a happy camper. Some other ideas pertaining to my theory is that:

1. We know Ritsuko DIDN'T want to end up like her mother. Yet she had fallen for the same guy, and been (or, atleast felt she had been) betrayed by him.

2. I've heard it said that Gendo resembles Anno somewhat. I don't think this is a coincidence because I've often felt Gendo's "evil mastermind with a longing to see his dead wife" came from a very heartfelt place. It's hard to make someone be such a cold bastard yet seem so worth pitying, even feeling sorry for, in EoE where he finally gets to see Yui again. I think that perhaps (although it's just me guessing) that Gendo might be Anno's psychological portrayal of himself. If I'm right, that would make the final line also important pertaining to Anno's thoughts and feelings (perhaps the reason he silenced the line, because it had a deeper meaning to him).


3. The voice actor's statement about the line:

"I looked for a way to accept her death at the hands of Ikari.
This made the interpretation of "Liar" very important. But the voice-over grew nearer and nearer....

Director Anno must have noticed how I felt. When it came time to do the voice-over, he showed me
a single, hidden hint at the last moment. With that one incredible hint, I, and Ritsuko Akagi, were
utterly defeated. It hardly needs saying, but Director Anno is incredible. Truly awesome -- a genius."


Something that totally defeated her. Noticed Anno showed her a single hidden hint. If that hint was that scene, I think it makes perfect sense.



So the line is:

'Ritsuko, I truly'

"have no regrets concerning my work."

Think how this totally syncs up with everything. Ritsuko seeing the same line fed to her as her mother, and realizing the same fate will befall her in the end, that she couldn't escape the mother she hated's shadow. How it pertains to Gendo's feelings about using people to acheive his goals, even though it's cost him everything.

Then notice how it pertains to Anno's feelings. He has no regrets concerning his work. If Gendo represents Anno, then that line could be one of those half truths. He's proud of his work, but saddened by what it's cost him, hence Ritsuko's and Naoko's "Liar".


How's this for my first fanwank?

[Reichu]

You just registered at EMF, so I guess this isn't a case of Same Person (http://www.evamonkey.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=61089#61089).

Then notice how it pertains to Anno's feelings. He has no regrets concerning his work.
"I have no regrets about the way EoTV turned out."
"...... Liar!"

[Eva_Yojimbo]

You just registered at EMF, so I guess this isn't a case of Same Person (http://www.evamonkey.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=61089#61089).


"I have no regrets about the way EoTV turned out."
"...... Liar!"I just found both forums a few days ago, and just registered tonight under the same moniker on both. I guess I'm not the first to have this theory then (not surprising someone else noticed it), but I honestly didn't see that post on the other board. I love the show, but it's hard to read through 16 pages of one topic on it. ;) That's why I said if I'm saying anything anyone's already said, ignore it...

But I think that's the right answer anyway. It syncs up too well not to be.

And I think it was the fans who regretted how the EoTV turned out, not Anno. Wacky psycho-diving-into-someone's mind ala a Floyd acid trip seems like something of a director's preference (though I understand they resorted to it largely because of the budget, I still think it turned out well).

[Reichu]

I guess I'm not the first to have this theory then (not surprising someone else noticed it)
It's interesting -- the proposal by Res Novae (and a couple on the next page that follow up) is rather recent, and I've been in this "business" for some six years and never heard this suggestion once. (Then two people forward it independently within weeks of one other.)

But I think that's the right answer anyway. It syncs up too well not to be.
The World Will Never Know.

And I think it was the fans who regretted how the EoTV turned out, not Anno.
Indeed, Anno has stated that he is perfectly happy with the TV ending. I was making a funny.

[Eva_Yojimbo]

Believe in coincidences my friend. If I were the same poster I'd sign up on this board under the same name and say the same thing I said on the other board. Besides, if you check the other forum, you'll noticed I just signed up with this same moniker. Of course, I could've read that thread and then stole the idea, but I can't convince you I didn't do that (I honestly didn't, btw), so you can either take my word for it or be all cynically snooty. :P

I'm very surprised nobody's ever noticed this until recently, because it seems so obvious, right down to Naoko saying "Is it true?" before Gendo responds. I mean, there's so much in the NGE universe that has my head all a twirl, but I feel this is one thing makes complete sense, so I'm going with it.

It could be because I've watched NGE back-to-back-to-back in the last month or so. Perhaps that episode and the movie is spread far enough apart that nobody ever put the two together? Plus, the shot of Ritsuko watching goes by so quickly, you'd likely forget it if you didn't make a point to remember it. When I finished the movie for the first time I made it a point to try to remember small details in the series the second time around to see if I could spot anything to answer some of the bigger questions, and that scene jumped out at me the second time around as being eerily identical to Ritsuko's final scene.

[YoshiSato]

I just finished watching EoE(again for like the umpteenth time :) )

I might be a little off base here(I was drinking sake while watching anime :P ) but I have a feeling Gendo might have said something to the effect that Capser's personality wasn't based off of Ritsuko's mother like she thought or it may have been reprogrammed after she destoryed the dummy plug system. After all Ritsuko thought she reprogramed the magi to self-destruct, but that failed and then Gendo said his piece then Ritsuko calls him a lier.

At least that's my interpetation this time around. I always get new insight each time I watch Eva. I just realised tonight after rewatching episode 24that Auska tried to commit suicide(wrist slitting from the looks of it), the clues are very suttle but they are there, you have to be looking for them.

[ElDusto]

I just finished watching EoE(again for like the umpteenth time :) )

I might be a little off base here(I was drinking sake while watching anime :P ) but I have a feeling Gendo might have said something to the effect that Capser's personality wasn't based off of Ritsuko's mother like she thought or it may have been reprogrammed after she destoryed the dummy plug system. After all Ritsuko thought she reprogramed the magi to self-destruct, but that failed and then Gendo said his piece then Ritsuko calls him a lier.

At least that's my interpetation this time around. I always get new insight each time I watch Eva. I just realised tonight after rewatching episode 24that Auska tried to commit suicide(wrist slitting from the looks of it), the clues are very suttle but they are there, you have to be looking for them.

I seen a fansub of this scene about 7-8 years ago, and when Gendo said his piece, the word no was displayed in the upper right side. It wasn't added by the fansubber's, it was an actual part of the original movie, in that scribbly writing. Anyway, I think it had multiple meanings, like, "No, you can't hear this." or "No" as in Gendo didn't love her. It was wierd and creative to make the scene as they did. My Manga DVD version of EoE doesn't have the word no in the upper right and I was wondering if that was a change made in the actual Japanese version or if it was removed by Manga.
The magi, though, did in fact have the three selfs that made up Ritsuko's mother.

[tv33]

I seen a fansub of this scene about 7-8 years ago, and when Gendo said his piece, the word no was displayed in the upper right side. It wasn't added by the fansubber's, it was an actual part of the original movie, in that scribbly writing. Anyway, I think it had multiple meanings, like, "No, you can't hear this." or "No" as in Gendo didn't love her. It was wierd and creative to make the scene as they did. My Manga DVD version of EoE doesn't have the word no in the upper right and I was wondering if that was a change made in the actual Japanese version or if it was removed by Manga.
The magi, though, did in fact have the three selfs that made up Ritsuko's mother.

In no official version of EoE are Gendos words to Ritsuko let known to the audience. Whatever you saw must have been added by the fansub group. The only people who know what Gendo said are Anno, and Ritsukos VA, who had it reviled to her during recording so that she would be able to deliver her line properly.

[Reichu]

I never for my life thought I would see tv33 post in this forum again.

OKAERI NASAI.

[Mr. Tines]

I seen a fansub of this scene about 7-8 years ago, and when Gendo said his piece, the word no was displayed in the upper right side.

I've seen a clip of the coffee-pot scene in EoE, where the kanji for "no" was displayed in the upper right corner, along with Asuka sneering at Shinji. Related?

[Shin-seiki]

I've seen a clip of the coffee-pot scene in EoE, where the kanji for "no" was displayed in the upper right corner, along with Asuka sneering at Shinji. Related?Indeed. That's the first thing I thought of as well. (Was that the Home Video version of EoE? I'm sure I've seen MDWigs reference that somewhere) Are you sure you're not thinking of Asuka in the kitchen scene, El Dusto?

[tv33]

I never for my life thought I would see tv33 post in this forum again.

OKAERI NASAI.

Don't worry; I'll be bringing shame to the AN Eva forum for years to come.

[ElDusto]

Indeed. That's the first thing I thought of as well. (Was that the Home Video version of EoE? I'm sure I've seen MDWigs reference that somewhere) Are you sure you're not thinking of Asuka in the kitchen scene, El Dusto?

Nope, it was this was in the scene I said it was in, but the word "no" was spelled in english in that moving squigily font that they used before and the word no had a period after it, so it looked like this, "no.", but all squigily and moving around in the upper right corner. I figure Anno put it there to tell the audience, "no, you can't hear this." That was my first thought when I saw it and noticed that Gendo's lips were moving but there was no voice.

[Shin-seiki]

Nope, it was this was in the scene I said it was in, but the word "no" was spelled in english in that moving squigily font that they used before and the word no had a period after it, so it looked like this, "no.", but all squigily and moving around in the upper right corner. I figure Anno put it there to tell the audience, "no, you can't hear this." That was my first thought when I saw it and noticed that Gendo's lips were moving but there was no voice.Well, I'll take your word for it then, but it sounds like it was something inserted by the fansubbers, most likely.

[ElDusto]

Well, I'll take your word for it then, but it sounds like it was something inserted by the fansubbers, most likely.

It could have been, but it looked like it was part of the original frames and not like the way subtitles look, added in. The word, "no." just fit in too well to the scene to be added in. You know what I mean?

[MDWigs]

Indeed. That's the first thing I thought of as well. (Was that the Home Video version of EoE? I'm sure I've seen MDWigs reference that somewhere) Are you sure you're not thinking of Asuka in the kitchen scene, El Dusto?

You are correct, in the "Genesis 0:14" original Japanese video release, in episode 26', in the kitchen scene Asuka's "Iya" (No) is written on the screen, but we don't hear it. What is described is not in any official version I've seen.

[Philosopher_K]

Has this question been solved yet somewhere? Sorry to bring up something this archaic but I can't seem to find anything else on this.

Here's what I've been thinking...

...Ritsuko has a gun. A GUN!!! She can use it to shoot Gendou!! But why didn't she? It can't simply because she was distracted by some random comment Gendou made about her mom. Remember what her seiyuu said... she felt "defeated." She's thinking "damn, even if I shoot this guy it wouldn't have made any difference."

Maybe something about the computer.

Or maybe something like "Ritsuko, your gun's empty"
...nah