Human Instrumentality = Mass Nirvana?

[CapsuleCorpJX]

Doesn't it appear that way? There is your Buddhist (maybe Hindu) religious theme there.

After all, after complementation, everyone has no desires, and are content for all eternity. There is no pain or sorrow.

Or maybe I'm not understanding the idea of nirvana.

But if I'm right, then the Seele council is a group of radical Buddhists (who whoulda thought buddhist would end the world?)

[tv33]

Almost all religions have an idea of paradise. I dont see any reason to conect Instrumentality to Buddhism, especially when there are so many connections to Christanity.

[Dr. Nick]

Originally posted by CapsuleCorpJX
But if I'm right, then the Seele council is a group of radical Buddhists (who whoulda thought buddhist would end the world?)

I don't think radical buddhists would (over)use judeo-christian symbols the way SEELE does. In my opinion SEELE is just a group of rich, powerful and messed up corporate CEOs who accidentally found a way to turn humanity into jolly hive-mind (didn't they originally plan just kill everybody?).

When Keel was a child he probably had an evil nanny who dropped him on his head one too many times, and thus made him believe that humanity is trash and needs to be killed / evolved. Maybe that's why his lower body is paralyzed (though I do have an another humorous theory about the reasons of that).

[otakumau]

I guess it´s more related to Gnostism (spelling?).

[Reichu]

Originally posted by Dr. Nick
Maybe that's why his lower body is paralyzed (though I do have an another humorous theory about the reasons of that).

Actually, I think one theatrical program or another implies that Keel's entire body from the neck down is artificial. (Either that or I misread something. I'm too lazy to trek over the EvaOtaku's page right now. :P) Methinks he had some bad accident or another between his episode 21 incarnation and the robed cultist version. Still, I like your theories -- let's hear it!

[Crazy Penguin]

It was all a huge Irn Bru promotion.

[saiyajin prince]

Originally posted by Reichu
Actually, I think one theatrical program or another implies that Keel's entire body from the neck down is artificial. (Either that or I misread something. I'm too lazy to trek over the EvaOtaku's page right now. :P) Methinks he had some bad accident or another between his episode 21 incarnation and the robed cultist version. Still, I like your theories -- let's hear it!

That maybe why they wanyed Instrumentality...

You see it when she turned into LCL.....all the artificial things...

[Reichu]

Originally posted by saiyajin prince
You see it when she turned into LCL.....all the artificial things...

Either that's a very amusing/disturbing typo, or there's something about Keel Lorenz that I don't know... :eek:

You can see all of Herr Lorenz's artificial parts very well in "Groundwork of Evangelion the Movie 2". I've wondered how all that stuff fit underneath his cultist uniform to begin with; it's kind of disturbing in that icky "KANEDAaaaa! MY BODY WON'T LISTEN!!" way. But, hey, whatever works for German cybernetic (and potentially homosexual) geezers...

[Dr. Nick]

Originally posted by Reichu
let's hear it!

Since you asked... :blush:

It was actually just a one stupid thought that led to another: There was this discussion about what really happened during the Second Impact, and I started to wonder how in the name of Jebus they got Adam back from Antarctica afterwards. Think about it, he was shrinked into a true pocket monster and ended up on the bottom of a gigantic explosion crater filled with water and LCL and whatnot. SEELE must have had hard time finding him!

And almost instantly I got this vision: The old cultist-dudes have rented a fishing boat, and Keel, being the youngest and greenest of the members, must do the diving...

*Keel tries to climb back to the boat*
Keel: "I don't want to! The water is too cold! And it smells like blood!"
older SEELE member: "Whining, whining, always whining. Pick yourself up and show us that you're not just a useless brat!"
*he kicks Keel over the railing*
*SPLASH!*
Keel: "Aaargh! I'm freezing! I can't feel my legs!!!"
*older SEELE member throws him with an empty beer can, and Keel has to dive*
older SEELE member: "What a wuss."
*other members nod agreeingly*

(But of course in the end Keel finds Adam, and after that he quickly becomes the leader of the whole bunch, because with his new mechanical legs he can kick other member's ***** so badly that no-one dares to oppose him. An inspiring story about willpower and determination, don't you think?)

[saiyajin prince]

Originally posted by Reichu
Either that's a very amusing/disturbing typo, or there's something about Keel Lorenz that I don't know... :eek:


Lol..I meanth, when he turns into LCL, you see all the articficial parts that was in his body....

[NakedEYE666]

Originally posted by tv33
Almost all religions have an idea of paradise. I dont see any reason to conect Instrumentality to Buddhism, especially when there are so many connections to Christanity.

It's not like Chrstianity is the only religion they reffernce to, they refference to many religions. Heck, when was the last time you saw the Tree of Sephiroth in the Bible?

I don't know if this is a buhdist refference but I guess it could be. It's a form of enlightenment atleast.

[tv33]

Originally posted by NakedEYE666
Heck, when was the last time you saw the Tree of Sephiroth in the Bible?

Well, lets see what the Eva God has to say about it.

A symbolic figure in Kabbalism (A esoteric sect of Judaism centring around mystical interpretations of the "Torah") representing in essence a 3-dimensional image of the spiritual realm in the form of a diagram.

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=Tree%20of%20Sephiroth

[saiyajin prince]

So I guess that the Tree of Sephiroth does not appear in the bible ^_^

[Shin-seiki]

Nirvana = extinction of self
Human Complementation Project = extinction of self (at least as portrayed in EoE; in the TV ending, it consists of people standing around on a HS auditorium stage, jabbering away at each other...)

[DufFuS101]

Originally posted by Shin-seiki
Nirvana = extinction of self
Human Complementation Project = extinction of self (at least as portrayed in EoE; in the TV ending, it consists of people standing around on a HS auditorium stage, jabbering away at each other...)

:lol:

[saiyajin prince]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shin-seiki
Nirvana = extinction of self

Nirvana is more like becoming free of all material things and has attained disinterested wisdom and compassion.

[tv33]

Hummmm...

Main Entry: nir·va·na
Pronunciation: nir-'vä-n&, (")n&r-
Function: noun
Usage: often capitalized
Etymology: Sanskrit nirvAna, literally, act of extinguishing, from nis- out + vAti it blows -- more at WIND
Date: 1801
1 : the final beatitude that transcends suffering, karma, and samsara and is sought especially in Buddhism through the extinction of desire and individual consciousness
2 a : a place or state of oblivion to care, pain, or external reality; also : BLISS, HEAVEN b : a goal hoped for but apparently unattainable : DREAM

[DufFuS101]

That's quite interesting.

[dragon_heart]

I agree with Shin-seiki: “Extinction of Self” is a pretty good definition of Nirvana, although some Buddhist would say that definition is a little too nihilist. I have also heard Nirvana being defined as submitting to the universal void or becoming one with the universal mind. The Vendettas (one of the six philosophical sects of the Hindus) have a similar concept of separating one’s soul (Atman) from the body. In order to achieve that state, you have to renounce all material things. You are also supposed to meditate, act virtuous and do some other things.

[NakedEYE666]

My sensei once told me, never miss a chance to post unrelated lyrics on a messege board.

"I was doing time in the universal mind,
I was feeling fine.
I was turning keys, I was setting people free,
I was doing all right.

Then you came along
With a suitcase and a song,
Turned my head along.
Now I'm so alone
Just looking for a home
In every place I see.
I'm the freedom man, I'm the freedom man.
I'm the freedom man, that's how lucky I am."

[saiyajin prince]

Originally posted by dragon_heart
I agree with Shin-seiki: “Extinction of Self” is a pretty good definition of Nirvana, although some Buddhist would say that definition is a little too nihilist. I have also heard Nirvana being defined as submitting to the universal void or becoming one with the universal mind. The Vendettas (one of the six philosophical sects of the Hindus) have a similar concept of separating one’s soul (Atman) from the body. In order to achieve that state, you have to renounce all material things. You are also supposed to meditate, act virtuous and do some other things.

Sounds pretty hard....I tried meditating once, the more you try to clear your mind, the harder it is and then it seems like time just go really really slow. It was boring, I couldn't do it again. I know about if people need to reach Nirvana they have to give up all material things.....I could never do that:D

[Reichu]

Give up... material things?

::eyes her books, DVDs, import CDs, and plastic Alien Queen possessively::

No Nirvana for me!

And, saiyajin prince, you're right -- meditation is bloody hard. My psychiatrist (or is that psychologist? I always get the two confused) wanted me to try it, but I didn't do to well. Actually, I think it made me cry spontaneously, and that's why I never wanted to do it again. OH, THE PAIN!!!

Not that anyone here really needed to know that.

[saiyajin prince]

Why don't I find that hard to believe that you see a pyschiatrist or pyschologist!:lol::lol:

Wait...now you confused me! what's a pyschologist?

I tried different ways but never been able to, tried on my head, under the shower, with music....don't know why I thought that would work, but I gave up a long time ago:lol:

[Reichu]

Originally posted by saiyajin prince
Why don't I find that hard to believe that you see a pyschiatrist or pyschologist!:lol::lol:

Wait...now you confused me! what's a pyschologist?

Actually, I see both. Psychologists (the Ph.D. side of things) are more commonly known as a "shrinks" -- you go in, bare your soul, get hypnotized if you're into that sort of thing. The psychiatrists -- the ones with the M.D.s -- prescribe medication for psychological "disorders" if they be needed. Given my pedigree (there's depression, bipolar, ADD, and various other things on both sides of the family tree), I need to see both.

Truth to tell, though, most people could benefit from one, the other, or both. There's more shame in leaving a problem alone than getting help for it. In that sense... I'm one of the lucky ones. Contrary to popular opinion, seeing a psychotherapist is not a bad thing. (Well... depends on who you're seeing. Those Freudians scare me.)

Off-topic, as usual. But, hey, psychological stuff vaguely relates back to Eva. ^_^ If only our favorite characters got to talk out THEIR problems every two weeks.

...but then, we wouldn't have much of an anime.

[tv33]

I wonder what it would be like if I was their Psychologist.....

........................................ ...................

Psychologist tv33: So Shinji what seems to be the problem?

Shinji: No one likes me!

Psychologist tv33: And why do you think that is?

Shinji: Because I am sneaky and weak, I don't deserve peoples love.

Psychologist tv33: Well you got a good point there.

Shinji: AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

The next day.

Psychologist tv33: So Misato what seems to be the problem?

Misato: I have been drinking too much lately....It causes me to do things I normally wouldn't. Dirty things......

Psychologist tv33: You don't say.......
Oh, Let me refill your glass for you.

The day after that.

Psychologist tv33: So Gendo what seems to be the problem

Gendo: Nothing, everything is going according to plan.

Psychologist tv33: I cant help you if you don't open up to me.

Gendo: I don't have time for such non-sense, contact me when you have something relevant to say. *Gendo hops on a helicopter*

Psychologist tv33: Wait you forgot to pay your bill!!

........................................ .....................

Yeah, what would be sweet!

[Reichu]

Could use a little of Rachel's Grammar-Snob Touch... But that made me laugh. "Good work, tv33." Now you have to make a mini-series.

[tv33]

Originally posted by Reichu
Could use a little of Rachel's Grammar-Snob Touch...

Give me a brake it is 2 o'clock in the morning! :)

I am glade you like it, it just could be the next big thing to happen to Eva!! (Or its death and destruction, one of the two ;))

[Reichu]

Oh, this is classic stuff.. Dr. Nick's "The Real Reason Why Keel is a Cyborg" AND tv33's "Playing Shrink to NGE's Cast". For the sake of posterity, this must be bumped.

[evolve]

Since you asked... :blush:

It was actually just a one stupid thought that led to another: There was this discussion about what really happened during the Second Impact, and I started to wonder how in the name of Jebus they got Adam back from Antarctica afterwards. Think about it, he was shrinked into a true pocket monster and ended up on the bottom of a gigantic explosion crater filled with water and LCL and whatnot. SEELE must have had hard time finding him!

And almost instantly I got this vision: The old cultist-dudes have rented a fishing boat, and Keel, being the youngest and greenest of the members, must do the diving...

*Keel tries to climb back to the boat*
Keel: "I don't want to! The water is too cold! And it smells like blood!"
older SEELE member: "Whining, whining, always whining. Pick yourself up and show us that you're not just a useless brat!"
*he kicks Keel over the railing*
*SPLASH!*
Keel: "Aaargh! I'm freezing! I can't feel my legs!!!"
*older SEELE member throws him with an empty beer can, and Keel has to dive*
older SEELE member: "What a wuss."
*other members nod agreeingly*

(But of course in the end Keel finds Adam, and after that he quickly becomes the leader of the whole bunch, because with his new mechanical legs he can kick other member's ***** so badly that no-one dares to oppose him. An inspiring story about willpower and determination, don't you think?)

I've got a better theory:

older SEELE member: ok, Keele. I'll hold this football, and you run up and kick it!
Keel: ok! I'm really gonna do it this year!
*Keel runs up to kick the football and older SEELE member pulls the football away at the last minute. Keel does a gainer and falls in a tangled mess, cracking both his legs*
older SEELE member: I can’t go through with it!
Keel: Arrrrrgh! My legs are broken!

seriously, though...

the concept of instrumentality also has parallels to the theories of Dr. Timothy Leary (if you've see Serial Experiments: Lain, you might already know what I'm talking about), and the idea of a "global brain" (here's a link: http://deoxy.org/8circuit.htm). although, from what I've seen and interpreted, they skip from the fourth circuit (the level most humans are at) to the eighth level (the global brain, complementality, nirvana, etc.). could this be why they failed?

[Knives]

although, from what I've seen and interpreted, they skip from the fourth circuit (the level most humans are at) to the eighth level (the global brain, complementality, nirvana, etc.). could this be why they failed?
... Why who failed? Instrumentality was a success ...

[Reichu]

... Why who failed? Instrumentality was a success ...

Not really. Shinji pulled the plug when he finally realized how much it sucked.

[Knives]

He may have pulled the plug on the whole damning Humanity aspect of it, but the process was a success.

... Erm ... but I'm sure the "damning Humanity" concept is up for debate around these parts as well — Reichu? :naughty:

[evolve]

He may have pulled the plug on the whole damning Humanity aspect of it, but the process was a success.

... Erm ... but I'm sure the "damning Humanity" concept is up for debate around these parts as well — Reichu? :naughty:

I guess technically it worked, but the idea behind it was to create one perfect being, and we all know how that turned out...

[Reichu]

Instrumentality was not a success. The process started, but it was never carried to completion -- to create, as evolve said, one perfect being (or "hive mind", as Dr. Nick always put it).

[Knives]

... and what would you call Uber-Rei-Shinji? Given that "it" said itself that it was that one being.

[Reichu]

... and what would you call Uber-Rei-Shinji? Given that "it" said itself that it was that one being.

If all life had become one perfect being, how was Shinji still aware of himself as an individual?

[Knives]

I'll need to watch EoE again to see how Shinji refers to Rei and himself, but it's clear by "Rei's" speech that Instrumentality had been a success. Shinji, being in the driver's seat, decided he didn't like that outcome.

[evolve]

I'll need to watch EoE again to see how Shinji refers to Rei and himself, but it's clear by "Rei's" speech that Instrumentality had been a success. Shinji, being in the driver's seat, decided he didn't like that outcome.

exactly. the process worked (humanity was melded into a "hive mind"), but I think Seele's plans involved things staying that way, and they didn't. therefore, the plan failed overall. am I making sense here?

what I don't get is the fact that Shinji and Rei were actually there when instrumentality was in effect. and then Kaoru shows up! wtf?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[Reichu]

what I don't get is the fact that Shinji and Rei were actually there when instrumentality was in effect. and then Kaoru shows up! wtf?!?!?!?!?!?!?

What's so strange about it? Gendou apparently needed Adam's soul as well as his body, so when he got ahold of Kaworu's head, he just did a little soul body-switcheroo. With both of the needed ingredients in his palm, he fondled Rei and lost everything as a result. Adam absorbed into Rei, Rei absorbed into Lilith... What doesn't make sense about Kaworu showing up?

I'm still firm that if Instrumentality had TRULY succeeded, there would be no Shinji to decide to end it. Shinji, and even Rei -- both would disappear as personal identity is eradicated.

Which kind of makes me wonder... If, at that point in Instrumentality (since, like, all minds are connected and stuff), Shinji knew everything that Rei knew, why did Rei need to tell Shinji what was going on?

[evolve]

What's so strange about it? Gendou apparently needed Adam's soul as well as his body, so when he got ahold of Kaworu's head, he just did a little soul body-switcheroo. With both of the needed ingredients in his palm, he fondled Rei and lost everything as a result. Adam absorbed into Rei, Rei absorbed into Lilith... What doesn't make sense about Kaworu showing up?

well before your informative post here, I had assumed that the part where Kaworu (I spelled it right this time!) shows up was "symbolic" (ie: didn't exactly happen) or something like that.

I'm still firm that if Instrumentality had TRULY succeeded, there would be no Shinji to decide to end it. Shinji, and even Rei -- both would disappear as personal identity is eradicated.

Are you suggesting that a possible outcome could have been Shinji deciding to continue with instrumentality, at which point he and Rei would phase out of their individual forms as well? that makes a little bit of sense, at least compared to anything else I've thought of, but it's probably not what you meant.

Which kind of makes me wonder... If, at that point in Instrumentality (since, like, all minds are connected and stuff), Shinji knew everything that Rei knew, why did Rei need to tell Shinji what was going on?

yeah, that's a tough call.

[Shin-seiki]

Which kind of makes me wonder... If, at that point in Instrumentality (since, like, all minds are connected and stuff), Shinji knew everything that Rei knew, why did Rei need to tell Shinji what was going on?Anno has a story to tell, so he has dramatize the process. If he showed GNR fall apart, etc, without offering some indication as to why it was happening, the audience would be lost. EoE portrays the process in a very compressed fashion; #26 offers 20+ minutes of blah, blah, blah about the psychological and philosophical issues involved. As I've mentioned before, if he were to show the physical reality of Instrumentality, it would be something like a bunch of little red dots just hanging there, winking at each other...well before your informative post here, I had assumed that the part where Kaworu (I spelled it right this time!) shows up was "symbolic" (ie: didn't exactly happen) or something like that.Word to the wise: when you see something onscreen in Evangelion, as a general rule, your 'default' assumption should be that it is, in fact, happening. This applies even to scenes taking place within Instrumentality; for while such scenes are not depicting physical reality, that does not by any means mean that it is not, in some sense, happening. Think of Instrumentality as a sort of Pseudo-reality, i.e. a manifestation of the interaction of the minds of the characters involved...

[Knives]

What's so strange about it? Gendou apparently needed Adam's soul as well as his body, so when he got ahold of Kaworu's head, he just did a little soul body-switcheroo. With both of the needed ingredients in his palm, he fondled Rei and lost everything as a result. Adam absorbed into Rei, Rei absorbed into Lilith... What doesn't make sense about Kaworu showing up?
If you're not in the "Kaworu = Adam's Soul" camp ... it doesn't really make sense ... or for that matter (even if he was) why Adam would choose Kaworu's form (just to make Shinji more comfortable? sounds like a cop-out answer to me ... heh).
I'm still firm that if Instrumentality had TRULY succeeded, there would be no Shinji to decide to end it. Shinji, and even Rei -- both would disappear as personal identity is eradicated.
Yeah ... I guess if you discount everything Rei says about there being no boundaries and everything being one ... then yeah .. you'd be right.

What do you imagine the situation to be?

Rei: "Well Shinji ... this is a taste of Instrumentality ... download is complete ... now that you've only seen a little — but not the whole thing mind you — would you like to 'Run Program' or 'Cancel and UnInstall?'"

In episode 25, the picture of Instrumentality is a little different. The picture painted in 25 is Shinji all by himself, having destroyed the rest of humanity by wanting his own, safe little world. Such a world only existed without other people — in other words, without individuality. It was then in 26 that Shinji realized that in a world with nothing, there was nothing with which to define himself. Having only nothing to compare himself to, he himself was nothing. Instrumentality in 25 and 26 was a success, until the last 30 seconds of 26 when Shinji decides that's not the world he wants.

It's a different picture from the movie ... but the same effect.

[Reichu]

If you're not in the "Kaworu = Adam's Soul" camp ... it doesn't really make sense ... or for that matter (even if he was) why Adam would choose Kaworu's form (just to make Shinji more comfortable? sounds like a cop-out answer to me ... heh).

Begging your pardon? Last I checked, I was advocating the connection between Kaworu and Adam... As for Adam choosing to appear as Kaworu, his 'false' Lilim incarnation -- it's probably the same reason as for why Lilith chooses to appear as Rei, in that her sense of self has been redefined by her experiences as a mortal, or some such thing. I made a whole thread (http://animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=134293) about this a while back that you might find somewhat informative.

[Knives]

See ... I also sense a problem of not reading closely. You asked "What's so strange about it?" regarding Kaworu in the Instrumentality. I said "If you're (meaning 'if one') is not in the 'Kaworu = Adam's Soul' camp, then it doesn't make sense (in other words, it's strange)."

So ... I wasn't saying you didn't think Kaworu contained Adam's soul. I was saying that if you don't believe he does, then this scene can be difficult to explain (in fact, now that I'm thinking about it ... what I previously called a "cop-out" answer, I'm thinking may be the case, but under different conditions). I was answering your question, "what's so strange about it?"
That's all.

[evolve]

...Word to the wise: when you see something onscreen in Evangelion, as a general rule, your 'default' assumption should be that it is, in fact, happening. This applies even to scenes taking place within Instrumentality; for while such scenes are not depicting physical reality, that does not by any means mean that it is not, in some sense, happening. Think of Instrumentality as a sort of Pseudo-reality, i.e. a manifestation of the interaction of the minds of the characters involved...

thanks for the tip. I think I'm finally starting to understand some of the things I didn't get at all before. On top of that, I had a revelation today while watching EoE: the possibility of timeline jumps.

additionally, I know this is probably old, but in the evangelion.ca (http://www.evangelion.ca) FAQ, Carl Jung is mentioned. in his little section of the FAQ, it says:
Carl Gustav Jung was one of the fathers of modern psychoanalysis. He developed many theories, such as personality types, archetypes, the collective unconscious, and individuation. He viewed consciousness as multi-layered, where, unlike Freud, the unconscious mind had a great deal to offer us. Jung's belief was that our Self, the truest form of our psyche, would only truly be revealed if we unified the different levels of our conscious and unconscious minds.

I probably don't have to explain.

[JFaulkner]

additionally, I know this is probably old, but in the evangelion.ca (http://www.evangelion.ca) FAQ, Carl Jung is mentioned. in his little section of the FAQ, it says:

Carl Gustav Jung was one of the fathers of modern psychoanalysis. He developed many theories, such as personality types, archetypes, the collective unconscious, and individuation. He viewed consciousness as multi-layered, where, unlike Freud, the unconscious mind had a great deal to offer us. Jung's belief was that our Self, the truest form of our psyche, would only truly be revealed if we unified the different levels of our conscious and unconscious minds.
That website was actually one of the first Evangelion websites I went to - although it seems to have disappeared into oblivion.

It says "modern psychoanalysis," although from what I hear (where I am anyway), psychoanalysis is well off the radar in modern psychology.

[Reichu]

You certainly are bumping some random threads. (And when I say "random", I mean "random in that 'oh, I see' sort of way".)

From what I understand, psychoanalysis hasn't completely disappeared from the field -- just most of it. :D

[JFaulkner]

"random in that 'oh, I see' sort of way".

Well, I typed Jung in the search engine, and went through the posts (there were only some 20 of them).

[KatayokuのTenshi]

I wish that I could turn back time... etc

Whats with all the long dead topics coming back to life. Don't they get erased eventually?

[Reichu]

Whats with all the long dead topics coming back to life. Don't they get erased eventually?
Mr. Faulkner has been casting Revive on ones that mention "Jung".

[Dr. Nick]

Mr. Faulkner has been casting Revive on ones that mention "Jung".

Gunbuster threads, arise!