[...]AnimeNation Anime News Blog » Blog Archive » Ask John: Is It Wrong to Like Lolicon?[...]…

Similarly to someone not discriminating and acting in perfect equality in all ways of life, even if they THINK women are inferior, it has no effect on their life, its completely irrelevant to others then.

The same applies to lolicon fans. Personality I like lolicon because I want to BE the character. I don’t particularly enjoy hentai though. I have no interest whatsoever in having relationships with children.

I have two personalities, one is a child of 8 years old. I know I will not be able to physically look like I’m 8 years old (I’m a bit tall for that), nor do I want to be perceived as being physically 8 years old (since I want my relationships to be seen as consensual adult-adult), but I don’t mind dressing like an 8 years old, or acting as naive as one (not as bratty though).

I am looking for a man who will like me for who I am, and that man will not be a pedophile, even if he may like lolicon. Maybe you catch my meaning? He would have a long-term relationship with me, and certainly not pursue physical children.

im a study for ikillchicken , hardly no one will be honest , im not ashamed because i dont like what i become, this brain of myne have changed and emerged , i want to put the emerging degree back to node 0 ( civilized )

Okay, I can understand that. As I said, I will certainly concede that lolicons are by no means automatically inherent pedophiles. That said, I remain skeptical. While there may be other attractions to lolicon, a large one would still potentially be pedophilia. For now though, I will agree to disagree on that particular issue.

“I don’t have any problems with people that oppose lolicon, but I do have a philosophical and moral problem with people that want to judge and control other people’s thoughts.”

First off let me make it clear that as I’ve said, I’m not advocating any kind of “control” of peoples actions or especially their thoughts. Lolicon is harmless and so people should have the right to it if they choose. Again though, just because you can doesn’t mean you should. I don’t think people should indulge in their pedophilia. I feel that conclusion is supported by a logical basis as I explained in my previous post. Is this what you consider “judging” people’s thoughts and have a problem with?

For that matter though, your stance is that: “it’s depraved for someone to actually want to sexually abuse a child, regardless of whether the person actually commits a physical crime.” Is this not also “judging” people’s thoughts in the same way? In fact, this seems to almost mirror my stance on pedophiles exactly. The disagreement lies in whether lolicons are pedophiles.

If this is the case though, you seem to be applying a double standard here. You are willing to judge the thoughts of pedophiles. Yet you condemn me for judging the thoughts of lolicons. What you seem to see as the difference is that lolicons are not pedophiles. Now in that case, it is a legitimate position to counter my statements to the contrary (as you have already done somewhat). However, it is unfair to complain about my judging their thoughts. By your own position, you are not against judging people’s thoughts. You simply disagree that lolicons thoughts when judged are found to be bad. (Or perhaps not. I don’t mean to straw-man you. If you see some other distinction, please explain).

But it’s necessary to apply common sense to making judgements about rational, intelligent people that distinguish between fictional characters and real human beings. As crilix addressed through example, interest in something depicted in comics doesn’t necessarily carry over to reality. I don’t have any problems with people that oppose lolicon, but I do have a philosophical and moral problem with people that want to judge and control other people’s thoughts.

U.S. president Bush tried to justify the Iraq war at one point saying that Saddam Hussein is evil. The meaning of the word “evil” politically translated into “an entity possessing and potentially planning to use weapons of mass destruction.” Eventually, we figured out Iraq didn’t possess them. Saddam Hussein may have been executed for crimes against humanity, but the war was wagered based on false allegations.

In the past, and even in some parts of the world today, homosexual relationships are considered the work of the devil. The reason why many societies do not legally forbid these relationships is because they do not harm anyone, even though they may be against the society’s common morals. Still, their critics continue to argue how homosexuality is the main cause of spread of HIV (the argument is a fallacy).

I sometimes indulge in futanari as well, and I personally think Watarase Jun is one of the hottest fictional characters in existence, but does this mean I have a thing for real transsexuals? I certainly do not.

“If certain people have such tendencies yet never, during their entire lives, act upon them, does that make the tendency vile and depraved? I argue that calling a personal, private impulse “vile” is a subjective moral judgement applied by observers who are trying to impose their own morality upon others.”

But we can agree that child molestation is “vile” and “depraved”. That’s the key difference that I think separates it. Even if a person doesn’t act on their urges, the bottom line is that they still desire to perform a vile and depraved act. I don’t really see it as a moral judgment to say it is vile to want to do vile things. That just logical as I see it.

I did clarify that fans of lolicon do not necessarily feel any attraction toward real human children. If you appreciate, say, the cute art in a lolicon manga but don’t even like associating with real children, are you a pedophile? How can you have pedophile tendencies when you don’t even want to be near children?

What if you have pedophile tendencies but don’t act upon them? As my article stated – if you have such impulses, you may require psychological counseling. If certain people have such tendencies yet never, during their entire lives, act upon them, does that make the tendency vile and depraved? I argue that calling a personal, private impulse “vile” is a subjective moral judgement applied by observers who are trying to impose their own morality upon others. If they do no harm, I believe that individuals have a right to their own, private thoughts without being persecuted by moral crusaders who believe that everyone should have pure and innocent minds.

This is exactly the brand of mental gymnastics I was referring to in possible response #2, because it’s no different from calling a first person shooter videogame a murder simulator for wannabe murderers (yes I’m opening that can of worms). I play ArmA (a military simulator) all the time, but I’m not about to sign up for an Iraq tour. Even if it played out just like the game, it would not be fun. I imagine fans of GTA must not actually want to steal cars and shoot up gangsters etc. in real life. However the depiction, “pandering” even, of these extreme and, as far as mundane life is concerned, totally unreal subject matters are still able to excite audiences. Who knows, it might inspire _some_ already unstable people, but I’m pretty sure the otherwise silent majority would not express the desire to act out the fantasies portrayed in pop art IRL, and also would gladly pay the price of a little bit of potential social degradation for the sake of artistic freedom.

I know people love to make special “it’s different!” exceptions for _anything_ involving kids, sex, or both, but why do you think so many couples engage in, say, fantasy roleplay with rape themes? Because they want the heightened emotions of an outlandish experience without the blatant immorality, guilt, harm to a fellow person and consequences of the act in question– it would not be fun IRL in other words. Same story for anyone playing GTA or a death-pandering shooting game, etc.

I’d have to admit it’d be at least exciting to be engaged in a deadly firefight and a hectic car chase, but making those fantasies a reality is out of the question. Rather than brand lolicon as _somehow_ magically different, I’m going to go out on a limb and assume that the vast majority of lolicon fans would actually be turned off by the idea of raping a real live child on the basis of their moral capacity and their ability to discern fantasy from reality.

So no, I can’t agree that lolicon is bad because the alternative, barring people from indulging in harmless fantasy, is much worse. I can’t even agree on the assumption that lolicon fans want to rape real live children any more than I want to start a workplace massacre because I enjoyed The Matrix’s (in?)famous lobby shootout or whatever.

Well lets see, you’ve now for the second time accused me of saying lolicon is harmful which I’ve repeatedly denied. You’ve also told me “what I must think”. So yeah, I’d say you’re straw-manning.

Your assertion is flawed. Lolicon is not simply “depictions of immoral acts”. I have no problem with pedophilia or even child molestation being depicted. However, lolicon goes way farther than that. It panders to that “immoral act”. (That’s your choice of words here by the way, not mine). When someone watches violent anime, it is not because they want to go around killing people but can’t in real life.

I do not have a problem with the depiction of immoral acts. (obvious)

I have a problem with people indulging in something that panders to their desire to perform a despicable act.

1. think that all fictionalized depictions of immoral acts in pop art are “bad”, “wrong” or “harmful”… however that’s a highly conservative, fringe opinion that will find little support in the anime fandom.

2. make a special exception for lolicon using some bizarre mental gymnastics to argue how it’s “more wrong” than other fictionalized depictions of immoral acts. However, this just highlights the weakness of your argument (my whole point) that won’t hold up in any serious discussion or law context.

3. just want to point out that lolicon is bad just cuz. Okay, but that’ just your highly nebulous opinion floating in space and bearing no relevance nor shedding any light to the overall “controversy” of lolicon in the anime/manga/games fandom.